Latest / Technovation with Peter High (CIO, CTO, CDO, CXO Interviews) / Mastering High-Stakes Negotiation: Insights from Former Scotland Yard Detective Scott Walker

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Mastering High-Stakes Negotiation: Insights from Former Scotland Yard Detective Scott Walker · Technovation with Peter High (CIO, CTO, CDO, CXO Interviews)

• 0:00
  Dealing with the actual client, the customer is
• 0:02
  relatively
• 0:03
  straightforward. But internally, within the business within the
• 0:07
  organization,
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  there are often lots of,
• 0:10
  competing priorities,
• 0:12
  internal politics, silo thinking, and there's no different
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  in life or death. Kidnapped that
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  negotiation. Dealing with the kin was relatively
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  straightforward and in easy
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  because they're just businessman
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  looking to get the best deal at the
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  end of the day.
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  Welcome to.
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  I'm your host Peter He. My guest today
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  is Scott Walker. Scott served as a Scotland
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  yard detective for 16 years investigating all aspects
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  of serious and organized crime, including kidnapping and
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  terrorism.
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  He also deployed overseas as part of a
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  military intelligence
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  interrogation team to inter interject and high value
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  targets.
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  When he left the police in 20 15,
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  Scott joined a crisis in risk management consultancy
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  that specialize from kidnapped for ransom negotiations and
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  resolving other similar peril around the world.
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  Scott continues to advise, train, and coach leaders,
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  at all levels, organizations who wish to enhance
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  their resilience,
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  emotional intelligence and communication skills. He helps companies
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  build a culture of resilience and develop engaged,
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  fulfilled, purpose driven and productive teams.
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  In March of 20 24, Scott publishes his
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  first book, order out of chaos, win every
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  negotiation, thrive in a diversity and become a
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  world class communicator.
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  Scott, welcome to. It's great to speak with
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  you today.
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  Thanks, Pete. It's great to be here.
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  Well, I I wanna talk about your beginnings.
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  Mentioned in the introduction there that you were
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  for 16 years a, police detective. And Wonder
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  what inspired you go into that that work.
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  Yeah. I was always
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  attracted
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  to that line of work for some reason
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  really...
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  He was a kid. He was a young
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  kid. I was always asking why
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  much to the
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  frustration probably of parents and grandparents.
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  And I always I've avoid been curious as
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  to what makes
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  human beings do what they do.
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  And as a police officers are detective,
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  you get a a ring side seat into
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  into 1 all of. Into all levels of
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  society,
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  into all manner of behavior,
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  and and particularly from the psychological perspective as
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  well. And I just fascinated.
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  Plus, I mean, I enjoyed it every single
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  day, pretty much I actually got paid
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  to go after bad guys,
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  give
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  innocent good people of voice.
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  To stand up for them, stand up for
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  the victims,
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  and feel as if I was doing something
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  meaningful and worthwhile.
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  And as I said, I loved every moment
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  of it. And
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  yeah, had a very varied and interesting career
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  for sure. That that... That's quite apparent. And
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  toward the end of your time,
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  with Scott Yard, you were invited to participate
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  in kidnapping in ransom cases. And I wonder
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  does that opportunity present itself? What what were
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  you doing previously
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  to to make it clear that that was
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  something that you might be good at? As
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  I I have to imagine that it's not
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  everyone that is invited to do so.
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  Again, Always
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  done jobs
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  within my career the police that I'd really
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  enjoyed, whether or night it was counter terrorism
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  work,
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  intelligence gathering, Covid ops,
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  and 1 of my roles before that was
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  as a
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  inform handler, an agent handler, you know, in
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  America, you call them Cis,
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  confidential inform.
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  My job there was to
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  identify, recruit and handle those kind of individuals.
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  To again it was all about
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  how do you influence and persuade and motivate
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  and and
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  bring about some kind of cooperation with other
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  people?
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  Particularly if they don't don't wanna do so
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  initially.
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  So of that lend me down 1 path
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  and then 1 day I in a in
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  the place canteen,
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  in the police playstation on, I bumped into
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  a a former body of mine,
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  there were known for years.
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  And at this point, I've being promoted a
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  couple of times.
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  And the only danger I was facing
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  was getting paper cuts from all the crime
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  reports.
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  Or
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  a sore side from sat down beyond a
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  desk or day. And he he was just
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  regalia me over a coffee of... He'd spent
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  the last 4 days or so
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  helping to negotiate the release
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  of a young man from the clutches of
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  quite a vicious Albania
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  organized Crime gang.
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  I just sat there, pete over over the
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  coffee thinking.
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  I want I want some of that. I
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  wanna get involved in that.
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  And
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  But graciously, he he made introductions to the
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  unit that's
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  oversaw or the selection and training of of
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  that line of work.
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  And
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  I applied, Went through the process
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  and they came out the other side.
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  And threw myself into those 3AM phone calls
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  when you gotta go and
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  get alongside the family and and help negotiate
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  the lease of their loved ones.
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  And is there is there an apprentice apprenticeship
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  to this? Is there somebody by your side
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  in the early stages as you're learning how
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  to do this? I mean, I, as I
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  as I think about the the range of
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  of,
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  skills 1 needs, and understanding of human psychology,
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  risk management, calculus of various kinds,
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  and we'll get into some of the of
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  your deeper learnings
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  as we go through this conversation no doubt.
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  III recognize some of this must have been
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  part of what you were doing already,
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  but the application of this must have been
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  different as well.
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  Yeah. Absolutely.
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  Y was assigned
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  a far more experienced
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  negotiator colleague
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  in in these cases. Because like anything. You
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  know, you're gonna get good in business. You
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  need the flying hours. He don't become a
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  Ceo,
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  successful Ceo,
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  6 months out of high school. You know,
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  yeah, if you're gonna do a startup up
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  I guess. But if you wanna if you
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  wanna be the Head, a large multinational organization
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  or whatever it is, then you're gonna have
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  to get those flying out. You know, and
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  you normally get mentors
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  along the way who can guide you. Not
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  always remember my
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  very first
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  negotiation. Very first, kidnapping
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  I deployed to. I hadn't quite mastered the
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  skill set completely around
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  about emotional self regulation, for example. You know,
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  you know, if you can regulate
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  what you're feeling,
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  that can help you know the decision making
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  and the actions you take.
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  And to cut up very long story short,
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  I'm with this family, we'd have the
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  their young son taken by a gang, and
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  he was in a pretty bad way. He
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  was being tortured and, you know, the deadline
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  was fast approaching.
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  I I was getting really frustrated with the
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  family.
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  As to why they wouldn't listen to my
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  wise
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  say advice, you know, the old age of
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  on know, 28 or whatever was at the
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  time.
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  And
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  I ended
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  being really direct. Borderline probably very rude actually.
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  And almost shouting with the family.
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  And that is until I found, I felt
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  this hand on my shoulder.
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  And there was an imp unacceptable squeeze
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  of my far more
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  experienced
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  esteem
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  colleague next next to me who
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  thankfully was able to enter interrupt my pattern
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  and then allow me to just sit and
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  watch a real master class as to
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  how do you bring about
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  influence,
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  persuasion,
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  cooperation,
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  collaboration.
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  When the stakes can't get any higher,
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  and the emotions and and everything else are
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  running running super high.
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  Yeah. You've noted
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  that the number 1 skill of of a
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  top negotiator is the ability to self regulate
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  emotions. You've added to that that highly developed
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  sensory acuity is also
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  very important. And clearly, that's a description of
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  that.
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  It's something that... And clearly, as you point
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  out, it's something, and and as your experience
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  bear, bears out,
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  it's something that can be learned as well.
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  Can you talk a bit about some of
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  the steps towards,
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  being able to self regulate one's emotions and
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  also to heighten their sensory acuity, acuity? Practice
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  makes
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  a mate... To make perfect. It makes permanent
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  though. And it's like anything, it's it's a
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  muscle.
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  You know that emotionally intelligence muscle, the sensory
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  acuity, the regulation,
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  You know, just like you go to the
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  gym to get strong or fitting. You don't
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  just go once and then expecting to walk
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  out looking like on arnold Sc and egg
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  or somebody.
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  You have to practice
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  and fail often. And
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  what it really is a couple of principles
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  or concepts that can really help us all
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  to
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  to mask this really.
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  And the first 1 is in any form
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  of
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  communication, particularly when it really counts
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  particularly those difficult
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  conversations. And, you know, we've all got 1
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  of those conversations we put off,
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  or we're quite re to
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  engaging in,
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  and that is really, it's not about you.
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  Again, the Stephen C lion a first seek
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  to understand before being understood.
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  That still stands a test of time decades
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  later from when he pending his book.
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  And it's true though, if we can enter
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  into
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  a situation and
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  negotiation
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  with far more curiosity than of some assumption.
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  If I'm gonna... Like I'm really interested in
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  what's going on for Peter right now.
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  He's at the table for this business deal
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  or he leading on a project or whatever
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  it is. I need to know what he's
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  really going on for Peter. How does he
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  see this situation? How does he see me?
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  Etcetera and how can I best bring about
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  some kind of collaboration cooperation or indeed some
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  behavioral change with Peter?
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  And it's no good if I'm
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  if I'm be like I wasn't in that
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  first, kidnapping case of dealt with,
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  allowing my
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  emotions to overall the common sense in the
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  and the national decision making. Even though we
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  make decisions emotionally and justify them rationally afterwards,
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  we can still look to bring
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  an element of control
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  over that as much as possible. It's not
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  easy,
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  simple, but not easy.
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  And so yet, it's it's looking at it.
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  It's not about me. It's about the other
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  person.
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  Gotta to get my own state where needs
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  to be my own emotions in check, first
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  of all,
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  bring that curiosity
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  while an assumption. And
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  I can elaborate on some of the other
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  steps a bit later on, perhaps,
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  about where where do we go with that?
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  How do we really then bring about
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  Peter, for example, to make a decision or
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  change mind or do some kind of behavioral
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  change.
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  I I know that the,
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  the insight enjoyable Taylor from her,
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  stroke for from her her Ted talk that
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  we're feeling creatures that think as opposed to
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  the opposite as meaningful for you and and
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  and certainly, you're describing that
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  just there. Yeah. That's. Do We you know,
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  we're emotional creatures that think.
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  Not thinking creatures that feel. And you rightly
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  said that Peter it's,
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  we're designed as as the species as an
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  organism so to speak. We're designed to experience
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  emotion. It's it's how we interpret the world
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  around us. And unilaterally could experience exactly the
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  same situation or set of circumstances.
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  But we could experience different completely different
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  emotions,
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  which will then impact
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  our decision making, which then impacts the actions
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  that we take as a
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  So the more we can get ahead of
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  that curve so to speak. The more we
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  can
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  identify and get to tune with what we're
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  feeling what we what we're experiencing.
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  And crucially what the other person is,
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  then we can start to think about... Well,
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  I we could bring about so form of
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  success here where
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  everybody can walk away you fitting, like, they've
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  got what they need from this conversation or
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  it. Stable or whatever it is.
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  And you've spoken about and and even alluded
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  already in the story
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  of that excruciating, first negotiation managing the chaos
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  within the chaos.
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  That's... When you're going through your negotiations, naturally
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  they are chaotic.
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  But but even, the the your your clients,
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  the the the who are you... Who you
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  are negotiating on behalf of or who you
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  are counseling for the negotiation, there's chaos on
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  that side as well. And so it almost
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  feels like, you know, 3 or 4 dimensional
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  chess as you think about, the moves of
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  the person across the table, but also the
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  move on your side of the table as
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  well and managing across all of that. Talk
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  a bit about that that insight, the managing
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  of the chaos within the chaos.
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  Yeah. And I'm sure your your views and
• 12:45
  listeners will relate to this, dealing with the
• 12:47
  actual client, the customer is relatively
• 12:50
  straightforward.
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  Relatively easy.
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  But internally, within the business within the
• 12:56
  organization, there are often lots of egos
• 12:59
  competing priorities,
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  internal politics, silo thinking,
• 13:04
  all of that stuff that can get in
• 13:06
  the way
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  a really
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  effective
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  providing value to the customer to the client.
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  And there's no different in life or death
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  kidnapped
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  negotiations.
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  Dealing with the kin was relatively and, relatively
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  straightforward and easy
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  because they're just businessman
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  looking to get the best deal at the
• 13:25
  end of the day.
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  But 80 percent of my time at least
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  was spent on the crisis within the crisis
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  was
• 13:33
  usually the crisis management team, the senior leadership
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  team, the board,
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  the exec level team,
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  that that was where my
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  skills and my ability and my energy and
• 13:45
  my attention was really brought to bear there,
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  was being able to navigate
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  through, as I said, the ego, the internal
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  politics, the
• 13:55
  the the the shifting energies, the the things
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  that are unspoken
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  the culture in the
• 14:01
  organization.
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  And,
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  yeah. There's sometimes I was just happy and
• 14:06
  glad to get on the call with the
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  bad guys, because I thought, right, this... I
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  can kinda of control that,
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  but navigating that that crisis within the crisis
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  is
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  Yeah. It's something that's across every industry and
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  sector. I'm sure. And anyone listening as I
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  said, in their business. I'm sure most of
• 14:24
  their time will be spent
• 14:26
  dealing whether, firefight fighting or more, longer term
• 14:29
  issues
• 14:30
  internally more than externally facing.
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  1 of the things that shines through through
• 14:35
  so many of your stories, Scott as the
• 14:36
  importance of empathy. I mean, so often, the
• 14:39
  negotiations that you're part of are really black
• 14:41
  and white. There is crystal clear as to
• 14:43
  who was good and who was bad, who
• 14:45
  was who is wrong.
• 14:47
  And yet finding empathy
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  and using Empathy rather, but in finding out
• 14:52
  the motivation, is so critically important. If you
• 14:55
  get carried away with the fact that the
• 14:56
  person on the other side is a bad
• 14:58
  person,
• 14:59
  then your ability to negotiate is is hindered
• 15:02
  at a minimum.
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  Talk a bit about the necessity for for
• 15:06
  for the even in situations where, you know,
• 15:08
  on the face of it, it might be
• 15:09
  might seem so difficult to to find it.
• 15:11
  What if
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  emotional self regulation is the number 1 skill,
• 15:16
  of all the best negotiators in the world
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  irrespective of what you're negotiating over.
• 15:22
  The the step that's just closer all the
• 15:24
  skill that's just closely follows that is the
• 15:27
  ability to empathize
• 15:29
  effectively.
• 15:30
  And people sometimes
• 15:32
  misunderstand what empathy is and what it isn't.
• 15:35
  It's a doing word. We do empathy.
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  It's not where we take on the emotions
• 15:40
  or the feeling of the other side or
• 15:42
  the other person.
• 15:44
  And it's certainly not about
• 15:46
  agreeing with
• 15:48
  a qui,
• 15:49
  honing or supporting
• 15:51
  whatever it is you're looking to empathize.
• 15:53
  Or who with. For example,
• 15:56
  I would have to empathize and I did
• 15:57
  on every single
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  kidnapping or cyber or other form of distortion
• 16:03
  case. That to empathize with the other side.
• 16:05
  And just like in business,
• 16:08
  you have to be able to empathize with
• 16:09
  people who you don't get on with or
• 16:11
  share anything in common.
• 16:13
  And particularly with the the clients or the
• 16:16
  customers.
• 16:17
  And it's really
• 16:19
  simply a case of
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  you being able
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  to
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  demonstrate your understanding
• 16:26
  of where
• 16:27
  near the side is at.
• 16:30
  And that is particularly powerful
• 16:32
  if you disagree
• 16:34
  on something. Or there's a bit of a
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  gap there.
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  Maybe you and I are on opposite size
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  of the negotiating table, Peter.
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  And we're... We've hit a bit of an
• 16:43
  impasse where we can't quite agree on how
• 16:46
  to close this deal. And so
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  empathy and action here would look something like
• 16:51
  Peter is okay for just share with you
• 16:53
  where I think you're at right now with
• 16:55
  this deal.
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  You're not gonna say no. You're gonna say,
• 16:58
  yeah, sure. And I'll say semi on the
• 17:01
  lines of...
• 17:02
  Well, for from my perspective, it it seems
• 17:04
  like you think that we're dragging our heels
• 17:06
  on this. And that we're looking to the
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  cut you
• 17:10
  and maybe almost trying to pull a fast
• 17:12
  1 and do out of a significant part
• 17:15
  of the market share here. Mean I've just
• 17:17
  made that up, but you can kinda get
• 17:18
  a sense of and you'll either go, yes,
• 17:20
  no or maybe.
• 17:22
  If you go maybe, okay great. Well, I
• 17:25
  can kind of elaborate a bit if it's
• 17:27
  no, that's fine, You're gonna tell me what
• 17:28
  it really is. And if I am spot
• 17:30
  on,
• 17:31
  well we've kind of dealt with that, you
• 17:33
  then feel
• 17:35
  see and heard and understood that I'm taking
• 17:38
  the effort, the the energy to
• 17:41
  understand the world, the situation, this particular
• 17:45
  negotiation
• 17:45
  from your perspective.
• 17:47
  Even if I think Peter, you're being an
• 17:50
  absolute pain
• 17:51
  and you're overthinking it, and you've been unreasonable
• 17:55
  yourself.
• 17:56
  It doesn't matter.
• 17:58
  I need to park my own
• 18:00
  desire to to prove I'm right and you're
• 18:02
  wrong
• 18:03
  to allow my ego to call the shots.
• 18:05
  I need to put that 1 sign to
• 18:06
  go, peter... I'm gonna demonstrate. I'm just gonna
• 18:09
  show you
• 18:11
  that I understand
• 18:13
  the the... Through your lens so to speak
• 18:15
  where we find. Cells. And it's so powerful,
• 18:18
  particularly
• 18:20
  if you're with where they're at.
• 18:22
  Honestly, but it's... Again it's like then the
• 18:24
  things it's it's a muscle. You've gotta trade
• 18:27
  it
• 18:28
  and the more you do it the easier
• 18:29
  it becomes.
• 18:31
  Great insights this
• 18:33
  necessity to ensure that the person across the
• 18:35
  the table
• 18:37
  is seen heard understood. These are the basic
• 18:39
  ingredients ultimately for trust, which you notice is
• 18:42
  the the currency
• 18:43
  for for these kinds of discussions that establishing
• 18:46
  trust is the pathway towards a successful
• 18:49
  negotiation. Can you maybe elaborate further on that
• 18:51
  as well?
• 18:52
  Yeah. And again, I... What I found so
• 18:54
  intriguing about the stories you tell is,
• 18:57
  again, the necessity to build trust in all
• 19:00
  sorts of scenarios, including where we're, in so
• 19:03
  many of your negotiations,
• 19:05
  it would seem like it would be very
• 19:06
  difficult to find a a pathway to trust.
• 19:10
  Without trust,
• 19:11
  the hostages don't come out alive. And yet,
• 19:14
  let let's just have a look at look
• 19:16
  at the scenario.
• 19:18
  Hidden that for ransom
• 19:19
  negotiations,
• 19:20
  and
• 19:21
  in indeed cyber ex as well, and are
• 19:24
  the similar peril.
• 19:26
  It's the most level day the most unregulated
• 19:29
  un governed
• 19:30
  industries in the world.
• 19:32
  You could ever think of.
• 19:34
  If it can go wrong, it does go
• 19:36
  wrong and if we mess up ultimately sending
• 19:39
  the kidnapped side of things, people can die.
• 19:42
  So tends to focus the mind a little
• 19:44
  bit on what works and what doesn't.
• 19:47
  And yet,
• 19:48
  there is a 93
• 19:50
  percent chance of success
• 19:52
  of the hostages coming back
• 19:54
  if we
• 19:56
  enter into and follow
• 19:58
  the
• 19:59
  negotiation.
• 20:00
  93 percent. Now they're there... Not a hundred
• 20:02
  percent, but there's still really good odds
• 20:06
  for success in what is
• 20:08
  unregulated
• 20:09
  uncovered, highly dangerous
• 20:11
  type of situation. And the reason why such
• 20:13
  a high success rate and consistently so
• 20:17
  over many, many, many decades
• 20:19
  is because the trust is in place. For
• 20:22
  example, if I hand over,
• 20:25
  4000000 dollars
• 20:26
  for the release of Peter,
• 20:29
  I need a trust that the connectors are
• 20:30
  going to stick to their part of the
• 20:32
  bargain and release you.
• 20:34
  As supposed to just take the money and
• 20:36
  kill you.
• 20:37
  Or or release you then can you again
• 20:40
  a week later.
• 20:41
  But equally trust works the other way where
• 20:43
  they need to trust me that I'm not
• 20:46
  going to look to craft the money,
• 20:49
  ambush them,
• 20:50
  kill them,
• 20:51
  even arrest them, this is in the private
• 20:53
  sector in in the when I was in
• 20:54
  the police, we would absolutely go after the
• 20:57
  bad guys and look to arrest them. But
• 20:58
  in the private sector where most of my
• 21:00
  experience
• 21:01
  actually was, we weren't interested in that. That
• 21:03
  was just about
• 21:05
  working and supporting the families and the companies
• 21:08
  for the safe and time and release of
• 21:10
  of the host.
• 21:11
  But that trust, it takes time.
• 21:14
  You. And the only way you build that
• 21:16
  trust
• 21:17
  is
• 21:18
  through
• 21:19
  empathy,
• 21:20
  and you really can empathize properly
• 21:23
  if you take the time to listen,
• 21:26
  to listen deeply
• 21:28
  without judgment
• 21:30
  to suspend your own... As I said your
• 21:31
  own assumptions, your own judgment,
• 21:34
  and really looked to understand where the site
• 21:37
  is coming from. And so I call it
• 21:38
  level 5 listening. And that listening is you're
• 21:42
  not waiting
• 21:43
  to speak. I mean, I'm I'm guilty that
• 21:45
  just as much as the next person, but
• 21:47
  I'm conscious of it is when someone's talking,
• 21:50
  you're already framing your
• 21:52
  your follow on, and sometimes you're leaving interrupt
• 21:55
  the other person so you could get your
• 21:57
  point across.
• 21:58
  Or you're just
• 22:00
  waiting or you're listening so you can re
• 22:02
  butt their arguments
• 22:04
  or maybe you... You're not really listening at
• 22:06
  all and you're thinking about the Amazon delivery
• 22:09
  that you're waiting for or what you've gotta
• 22:11
  do after this conversation. And so if we
• 22:13
  can get all the way down to to
• 22:15
  till level 5 and then in the book,
• 22:16
  I actually talk
• 22:18
  in lots more detail about those levels.
• 22:21
  At level 5,
• 22:23
  you're listening to their point of view.
• 22:26
  You're listening to almost what is not being
• 22:28
  said.
• 22:29
  Just as much as what is being said,
• 22:31
  such as is an inc
• 22:34
  between the words and the tone and the
• 22:36
  Behavior perhaps. Is something not quite right there,
• 22:40
  but you're never gonna pick that up. Those
• 22:42
  subtle
• 22:43
  if you're just waiting
• 22:45
  to talk yourself. And by listening at that
• 22:48
  level, it's hard work.
• 22:50
  But if listening at that level, not just
• 22:52
  with kid, but maybe
• 22:54
  you give some really constructive,
• 22:57
  directs,
• 22:59
  feedback in the workplace, perhaps.
• 23:01
  Or some other form of
• 23:03
  challenging
• 23:04
  conversation you have to have,
• 23:06
  in the office. It's that listening, deem em
• 23:09
  emphasizing
• 23:10
  which enables you to build rapport.
• 23:13
  And then and only then you earn the
• 23:15
  right
• 23:16
  to start influencing and persuading because you've built
• 23:19
  that trust up. You haven't just rushed to
• 23:21
  try and problem solve.
• 23:23
  And so it does take, better a time
• 23:25
  to get there, but it's well worth spending
• 23:27
  the time
• 23:28
  because then because the when you've earn the
• 23:30
  trust,
• 23:31
  it gives you that currency with which
• 23:33
  to then,
• 23:35
  not unless it make demands, but make requests
• 23:37
  of the other side. And to start looking
• 23:39
  to maybe nudge or influence or persuade them
• 23:42
  to do something.
• 23:43
  And I I found your your 5 levels
• 23:45
  of listening super saying It just to to
• 23:48
  to
• 23:49
  enlighten our listeners and viewers,
• 23:51
  the the 5 levels are listening for gist.
• 23:54
  Listening to rebuke, and and often, we... It's
• 23:56
  sort of this first 2 where we linger
• 23:58
  too often as we are quote unquote listening.
• 24:00
  Then listening for logic is level 3, level
• 24:03
  4 listening for emotion. And then finally, as
• 24:05
  you mentioned, level 5, listening for points of
• 24:08
  view. And III
• 24:10
  really enjoyed the way in which you describe
• 24:12
  those in the book and then Necessity to
• 24:14
  get to level 5, especially when when talking
• 24:16
  about critical
• 24:17
  negotiations such as this.
• 24:19
  As you as you've gone through,
• 24:21
  negotiations and hostage situations, I realize every 1
• 24:24
  of them is a bit different, but these
• 24:25
  are not fast
• 24:27
  negotiations. They take time. And can you talk
• 24:29
  of bit about the element of time
• 24:32
  when it comes to negotiations. I think for,
• 24:34
  you, almost anyone who goes into it? 1
• 24:35
  hopes that of course that it is both
• 24:37
  fast and and that our point of view
• 24:39
  wins needless to say. But, neither of those
• 24:42
  should be seen as fore on conclusions and
• 24:44
  probably even are going to be possible. So
• 24:47
  can you talk a bit about the element
• 24:47
  of time as part of this?
• 24:49
  Time can be your friend in a negotiation.
• 24:52
  When it's business or for for hostages,
• 24:55
  what we'd always need to do is by
• 24:56
  time because if we can...
• 24:58
  Well, first of all, let me take a
• 24:59
  step back. With... There's a saying hurry up
• 25:01
  from wait.
• 25:03
  Anyone who's ever said the military will understand.
• 25:06
  Quick quick, quick hurry Hurry up. Alright. And
• 25:08
  now we just need to wait. It's someone,
• 25:09
  why did we have to hurry in the
• 25:10
  first place. But the logic behind that is,
• 25:14
  in the certainly the first 20 hours of
• 25:15
  a kidnapping,
• 25:17
  we wanna get everything in place. We wanna
• 25:19
  get alongside the family, the company, we wanna
• 25:22
  set up the phone
• 25:23
  and
• 25:24
  discuss a strategy,
• 25:26
  etcetera, etcetera. And that puts us in a
• 25:28
  great place.
• 25:29
  Even if just from a a nervous system
• 25:33
  perspective feeling we've got an element of control
• 25:35
  there. It enables us to then have far
• 25:38
  better
• 25:39
  negotiation.
• 25:40
  So
• 25:41
  we wanna buy time
• 25:43
  because
• 25:44
  all the research. All the research shows that
• 25:48
  our emotions can
• 25:51
  particularly high emotions,
• 25:53
  can be reduced. So particularly if we're angry
• 25:56
  if we highly emo,
• 25:58
  time allows us to
• 26:00
  to reduce.
• 26:01
  And the more we can reduce the anxiety
• 26:04
  stress
• 26:05
  overwhelm.
• 26:06
  I over days and weeks.
• 26:09
  That then enables objective rational
• 26:13
  thinking
• 26:14
  feeling and decision making and action taking
• 26:17
  to to come to to the forefront.
• 26:20
  And so
• 26:22
  That's that's the strategy that's the approach.
• 26:25
  But when
• 26:26
  negotiations lasts
• 26:28
  many weeks,
• 26:30
  and even a few months,
• 26:31
  you can't do this
• 26:33
  12/14/1618
• 26:35
  hours a day. You just burn out
• 26:38
  And so 1 of the things I would
• 26:39
  emphasize and my very first
• 26:41
  conversations when I sit down with a client
• 26:44
  would be
• 26:45
  we need to come up with a sustainable
• 26:47
  battle with.
• 26:50
  And that means
• 26:51
  eventually, we wanna get to the place the
• 26:53
  point where we'll say to the kin,
• 26:56
  we will be available between,
• 26:58
  I dunno let's say, 2 and 4PM every
• 27:01
  afternoon to speak to.
• 27:03
  But outside of that time, the phone is
• 27:05
  gonna be switched off. And the and people
• 27:07
  go 1 you... We can't turn the phone
• 27:09
  off, yes, we can This this is a
• 27:11
  business deal
• 27:13
  just like you could do this in your
• 27:14
  wider business sense.
• 27:16
  You... Because when you're not on the phone
• 27:18
  in that 2 hour window.
• 27:20
  It enables you to
• 27:22
  get some rest, recover, exercise, sleep, eat,
• 27:26
  have
• 27:27
  conversations about the strategy? Has it going
• 27:29
  what are our outcomes and objectives.
• 27:31
  And again, it just balances
• 27:34
  from, you know, rather than the fight flight
• 27:36
  or freeze
• 27:38
  element of the nervous system,
• 27:40
  and we wanna calm be down into the...
• 27:42
  Reapply the brake pedal and just balance it
• 27:44
  out a bit more really.
• 27:46
  And that just means we can
• 27:49
  go for longer.
• 27:50
  We can have a more sustainable
• 27:54
  negotiation rather than just burning again. And I've
• 27:56
  been there where
• 27:57
  where the the the brother of a, hostage
• 28:00
  He wanted to he was a younger brother,
• 28:02
  and he obviously saw this as his moment
• 28:04
  to shine that his elder brother being taken.
• 28:06
  And he wanted to
• 28:08
  Head up, the Crisis management team. He was
• 28:11
  head of the family business, and he also
• 28:13
  wanted to be the communicator he was speaking
• 28:14
  with the kid kidnapping.
• 28:16
  And he was using his own personal mobile
• 28:18
  phone. As you can see whether this is
• 28:19
  probably going out is every
• 28:22
  notification, every ping, every message. Your email, on
• 28:25
  his phone thoughts on the kid.
• 28:27
  And because he couldn't
• 28:29
  switch off.
• 28:31
  He just burnt out very quickly, and
• 28:34
  it immediately ended in tragedy because he turned
• 28:36
  around to the kidnapping as 1 day they
• 28:38
  really really
• 28:39
  burnt out and threaten the kidnapping. Now, I
• 28:42
  about
• 28:43
  you Peter. That's never a good idea in
• 28:46
  my book. I I don't know if if.
• 28:48
  If anybody would thinking it would be and
• 28:51
  the kenneth has just turned around and said,
• 28:52
  right. We're gonna kill your brother and they
• 28:54
  hung up.
• 28:55
  And we didn't hear anything for 6 months.
• 28:59
  6 months.
• 29:00
  Can imagine the family dynamics, the
• 29:03
  the meal times, the rec elimination, the the
• 29:06
  the the emotions swirling,
• 29:09
  having made made that call.
• 29:11
  In the end,
• 29:13
  they they do reach back out. We do
• 29:14
  get get the brother back. But the point
• 29:16
  of that story is,
• 29:18
  is there unless you get a battle rhythm?
• 29:20
  Unless you look at this long term, it's
• 29:22
  not gonna end well for anybody, and this
• 29:24
  doesn't have to be up this be everyday
• 29:26
  business.
• 29:27
  Yes, you wanna be able to expand the
• 29:29
  window of tolerance.
• 29:31
  You know where you can be as
• 29:33
  calm as grounded as balanced
• 29:36
  centered as grounded as possible in the eye
• 29:39
  of the storm around you, make those decisions
• 29:43
  embrace the challenges
• 29:45
  and the objections and and the obstacles in
• 29:47
  your way.
• 29:48
  But know that if you go too far
• 29:50
  outside of that you need to bring it
• 29:52
  back, you need that time
• 29:54
  within which to
• 29:56
  recharge, rejuvenate,
• 29:58
  catch your breath and and take stock of
• 30:00
  where where you're at.
• 30:02
  What a powerful example that is thank you
• 30:03
  for sharing it Scott.
• 30:06
  Your book also gets into
• 30:08
  some of the misconceptions in your mind between
• 30:11
  the the normal right brain, let brain characteristics,
• 30:15
  you you actually talk about, they're being left
• 30:17
  brain characteristics in the right brain and vice
• 30:19
  versa as well. Can you talk a bit
• 30:21
  about some of your your analysis of that,
• 30:23
  and it's it's
• 30:24
  pertinent to our conversation here.
• 30:27
  Yeah. Was was fascinated when I discovered it,
• 30:29
  and hey for 10:15 years also a bit
• 30:32
  more... I was
• 30:34
  I had a practical
• 30:35
  understanding of this without knowing the neuroscience all
• 30:38
  the or the sides behind it. And it's
• 30:40
  only 1 I
• 30:42
  really kinda stepped away from
• 30:44
  doing the negotiations and my interest in neuroscience
• 30:48
  really developed. And. I came cross. Again, J
• 30:50
  bulk Taylor, as you mentioned.
• 30:53
  Who talks about these,
• 30:56
  basically, the brain is divided to 4 parts.
• 30:59
  You know, she had a stroke.
• 31:02
  And she realized that actually, it's not as
• 31:05
  as simple as left brain, right brain one's
• 31:08
  rational, one's emotional.
• 31:10
  You know, both sides of the brain have
• 31:13
  both elements.
• 31:15
  And the point that she was making and
• 31:17
  I found fascinating was
• 31:19
  you can almost choose
• 31:21
  your archetype. You can choose what part of
• 31:24
  your brain is in charge in that moment.
• 31:26
  For example,
• 31:28
  you know, you could read something called social
• 31:30
  media,
• 31:31
  or there could be something happening in the
• 31:33
  workplace and you'll go, okay. Well,
• 31:36
  Am I am I being driven by emotions
• 31:38
  to? Which part of my
• 31:40
  brain is really calling the shots here. Do
• 31:42
  I need to bring some more rational
• 31:46
  attention to this. And it and her in
• 31:48
  a book,
• 31:50
  whole brain living, she actually names these 4
• 31:52
  parts of her brain. Now I'm not saying
• 31:56
  everybody's gonna do that. I mean, the the
• 31:57
  the principles behind this are.
• 31:59
  If you can
• 32:01
  just spend the time to
• 32:03
  again get curious
• 32:05
  as to
• 32:07
  what are your triggers really? How do you...
• 32:09
  What are what are the patterns, What are
• 32:11
  the themes and patterns that when x happens,
• 32:15
  how does that show up for you? Is
• 32:17
  there always a
• 32:19
  tension in the shoulders, for example, or
• 32:23
  a churning in the stomach.
• 32:25
  It'll show in your body somewhere usually.
• 32:28
  And the more awareness is self awareness she
• 32:30
  can bring.
• 32:32
  Means you go, okay. I notice every time,
• 32:34
  I have a phone call or Zoom meeting,
• 32:37
  whatever it is, with this particular client.
• 32:40
  I just feel the same
• 32:42
  thing of frustration, my eager brain kicks in,
• 32:46
  I'm already looking There's almost like a conflict
• 32:49
  underneath the surface here
• 32:50
  and get curious of what, how interesting.
• 32:53
  Alright. Well, what does that mean? Okay. Well,
• 32:55
  how do I need to approach this
• 32:58
  conversation this meeting that's called
• 33:01
  differently.
• 33:02
  And that's essentially what what the principles are
• 33:05
  about what she was mentioning, in know a
• 33:07
  book. And I just found that fascinating about,
• 33:09
  we can almost bring a different part of
• 33:11
  our personality
• 33:13
  to that situation depending on the context and
• 33:15
  what's required.
• 33:17
  I I wanna pivot towards cyber ex another
• 33:20
  area in which you are expert, Scott.
• 33:22
  And talk a bit about how some of
• 33:24
  these ideas apply to that realm. And maybe
• 33:26
  you can talk a bit about the evolution
• 33:27
  of cyber
• 33:29
  your experience as well. Yeah. What what what
• 33:32
  are some of the nuances associated with that
• 33:34
  perhaps a a little bit different from some
• 33:36
  of the, you know, kidnapping situations, and other
• 33:38
  negotiations we described?
• 33:39
  I I know the
• 33:42
  cyber s world although also need the response
• 33:44
  to it. There there's it's it's divided. Some
• 33:48
  people believe
• 33:49
  yes,
• 33:50
  you need to enter into negotiation with the
• 33:53
  threat actor
• 33:55
  And there's other of people who firmly of
• 33:56
  the belief that,
• 33:58
  no, you don't. That's the last you never
• 34:00
  ever
• 34:01
  engage with any of the these
• 34:03
  trade actors at at all. Particularly,
• 34:06
  I mean, the classic 1 study my experience
• 34:08
  would be, you know, a ransom wear attack,
• 34:11
  for example. It's it's far gray.
• 34:14
  Then either, yes or no in terms of
• 34:16
  engaging with a threat actor. The end of
• 34:18
  day, you got a human being on the
• 34:20
  other end of the
• 34:21
  email or whatever means a communication you're using.
• 34:24
  And
• 34:26
  you still need to engage with them potential
• 34:28
  or have a decision within your crisis management
• 34:31
  team as to
• 34:32
  are we willing
• 34:35
  unable to enter into a conversation with the
• 34:38
  ex list? But that depends on what the
• 34:41
  situation you're facing because I remember,
• 34:44
  seen back a couple of years now, people
• 34:46
  businesses are certainly becoming far more
• 34:49
  aware of this.
• 34:51
  Somebody would have a
• 34:52
  a denial service attack or ransom attack. And
• 34:57
  I'd get on the phone
• 34:59
  with them. And I'd say, well, okay. How
• 35:01
  much is the...
• 35:03
  How much is the demand for? Oh, we
• 35:05
  we don't know.
• 35:06
  Okay.
• 35:07
  And how much it is costing you in
• 35:10
  lost revenue a day and an opportunity costs
• 35:12
  and everything else.
• 35:13
  Oh,
• 35:15
  about 12000000 dollars.
• 35:17
  Okay. And how long is it gonna be
• 35:19
  before you could
• 35:21
  potentially get backup and running.
• 35:24
  Oh, I don't know it's gonna be probably
• 35:25
  least another the week or so. Okay. And
• 35:27
  how the backups well,
• 35:29
  the backups we're not quite sure how successful
• 35:31
  the backups have been from the servers.
• 35:34
  Okay.
• 35:35
  And in quite a few cases,
• 35:37
  the demand will be in the early days
• 35:39
  would be for maybe 4 or 5000 euros
• 35:41
  or dollars. 1 of the considerations has to
• 35:44
  be there of,
• 35:45
  well,
• 35:47
  even though there's no guarantees.
• 35:49
  It may be worth considering paying the 4
• 35:51
  5000 euros, the alicia you get the the
• 35:54
  keys back that you can start to
• 35:56
  decrypt,
• 35:58
  your your data again, and that might help.
• 36:00
  Again, there's no guarantees.
• 36:02
  Particularly it's costing you of quote million dollars
• 36:04
  a day. It's having that conversation. It depends
• 36:06
  also in my experience of the risk appetite
• 36:08
  of the company. What does its really mean?
• 36:10
  If it's a law firm,
• 36:12
  and we've had a few cases of that.
• 36:14
  Where
• 36:15
  confidential client sensitive
• 36:17
  information
• 36:18
  had been stolen
• 36:20
  or medical data.
• 36:22
  Now that that that's a different ballgame than
• 36:24
  if it's, you know, you're making widgets in
• 36:26
  a factory somewhere, Not discounting that. But obviously,
• 36:29
  hey, And has different implications. And again, when
• 36:32
  we do negotiate when we do into into
• 36:34
  the conversation with the ex.
• 36:37
  Again, it's to buy time.
• 36:39
  What we wanna do is wanna buy time,
• 36:41
  we wanna slow everything down,
• 36:43
  so the company so the organization can
• 36:46
  look at.
• 36:48
  Okay. Can we lay terms, can we sweep
• 36:51
  the system and plug the gap and make
• 36:53
  sure there's there's nothing left in there? That's
• 36:55
  gonna he that's gonna harm us as well
• 36:58
  as preventing anything else from happening a gate,
• 37:00
  and we can resume businesses as as usual.
• 37:04
  And I think the other factor
• 37:06
  miss Cyber distortion compared to kidnapping
• 37:09
  negotiations
• 37:10
  is
• 37:11
  reputation matters
• 37:13
  perhaps
• 37:14
  more in a cyber ex
• 37:17
  than the kidnapping.
• 37:19
  I think the General public shareholders
• 37:22
  customers
• 37:23
  would accept their company being hacked.
• 37:26
  But how they deal with it, they don't
• 37:29
  have long
• 37:30
  to prove to demonstrate their credibility and capability
• 37:33
  to resolve it.
• 37:35
  And I think if you mess up
• 37:38
  a cyber ex
• 37:40
  then your credibility, your reputation is more likely
• 37:44
  to be impact and say cannot
• 37:47
  negotiation goes slightly wrong because people don't necessarily
• 37:49
  expect no, somebody gets working gets kidnapped,
• 37:53
  and they and they don't come back.
• 37:55
  Accurate in a in a bizarre way, that's
• 37:57
  almost...
• 37:58
  Okay. Well, it's just 1 of those things
• 38:00
  because it's so highly dangerous. You know, a
• 38:02
  company messes a per poseidon
• 38:04
  negotiation,
• 38:05
  then actually, they have less
• 38:08
  room to
• 38:10
  to come
• 38:11
  lead
• 38:12
  some kind of innocence there.
• 38:15
  Given how stressful these negotiations are certainly certainly
• 38:19
  for you as well I would imagine.
• 38:20
  What what sorts of practices do you follow
• 38:22
  in order to
• 38:24
  of try to relieve the the stress or
• 38:26
  what do you recommend to others, to do
• 38:28
  the same. You you mentioned it is important
• 38:30
  to get rest and and not be... Happens
• 38:32
  to be all consuming
• 38:34
  that that to use time in some ways
• 38:36
  to to renew oneself even in in in
• 38:39
  what might seem like a constant storm.
• 38:42
  Talk about a bit about some of the
• 38:43
  this that you use that that have been
• 38:45
  effective for you to relieve stress.
• 38:47
  1 of the
• 38:48
  tools or techniques that
• 38:51
  I've used over the years and again. I
• 38:52
  learned the hardware.
• 38:54
  I've went things missing work out.
• 38:56
  It's a 3 step process
• 38:59
  that I used regularly in my personal life
• 39:01
  as well as professionally. And I call it
• 39:03
  the immediate action drill, the I a drill.
• 39:07
  To 3 step process that can be used
• 39:09
  proactively so say you're about to go and
• 39:11
  give a big key
• 39:13
  or you're gonna give a presentation to the
• 39:14
  board or you're looking for pitching for some
• 39:16
  work or whatever it is. So you can
• 39:17
  do it proactively,
• 39:19
  or in the heat the moment,
• 39:22
  a colleague,
• 39:23
  or or some you're read that in the
• 39:25
  media just happen or or and you've noticed
• 39:27
  it and it really triggers you. It really
• 39:29
  kind of winds you up. So you can
• 39:31
  do it reactive as well. And the 3
• 39:33
  step process is this.
• 39:35
  Step 1,
• 39:36
  it's interrupt the pattern.
• 39:38
  Just like my colleague in the very first
• 39:40
  case I was involved in. He interrupted my
• 39:43
  pattern by putting his hand on my shoulder.
• 39:46
  And for me now, it could be something
• 39:48
  as simple as
• 39:50
  taking a couple of breaths or if I'm
• 39:52
  sat down or stand up, maybe go outside
• 39:55
  is whatever works for you, but it's it's
• 39:57
  preventing you from
• 39:59
  go down that rabbit warren
• 40:01
  of blaming naming and shaming and they're going
• 40:03
  on the loop inside your head about
• 40:06
  how dare
• 40:07
  Peter say this or do this. And I
• 40:09
  can't believe they've not done that and
• 40:12
  it doesn't serve anybody
• 40:14
  really long term. However, justified you may feel
• 40:17
  that you are. We could come on say
• 40:18
  a second. So the first thing is interrupt
• 40:20
  the pattern. It could be you doing some
• 40:22
  jumping jacks in the corner.
• 40:24
  Whatever it is
• 40:25
  to to shift your state.
• 40:28
  The second step
• 40:30
  is to ride the wave
• 40:33
  So any surfers listening or any skier
• 40:36
  where
• 40:38
  for about 90 seconds, 2 minutes.
• 40:40
  From that stimulus.
• 40:42
  You've got the cortisol all, You've got the
• 40:44
  adrenaline pumping around your body, and that's the
• 40:46
  vital flight. Freeze kicking in. You can't really
• 40:49
  do much about that.
• 40:51
  But that month, those 90 seconds, 2 minutes
• 40:54
  are usually where
• 40:56
  unless it's just me, obviously, by doubt it
• 40:58
  is, where you've settled or done something thinking
• 41:00
  you use later regret. Usually,
• 41:03
  It's in those first couple of minutes of
• 41:05
  something happening.
• 41:06
  What I've learned to do is
• 41:08
  be the feeling
• 41:10
  but drop the story.
• 41:12
  It doesn't matter why it's happening in that
• 41:14
  moment.
• 41:16
  I just need to feel the emotion what
• 41:18
  I'm feeling not judging and not push it
• 41:20
  away
• 41:22
  not kind of wish it was different.
• 41:24
  I just need to feel it. And I
• 41:25
  after about 90 seconds, 2 minutes,
• 41:28
  allow it to subside allow it to dissipate
• 41:31
  and then I can move on to step
• 41:32
  3
• 41:34
  because my nervous system is been more regulated
• 41:36
  and balanced,
• 41:38
  I can ask better questions.
• 41:41
  So I'll interrupt the pattern.
• 41:43
  I'll ride the wave and I ask better
• 41:45
  questions. And those questions can be
• 41:48
  Well they need to be empowering ones, but
• 41:50
  it can be something like,
• 41:52
  okay. What was all that about? What what
• 41:54
  what does this mean now? Where
• 41:56
  where I am right now. What's the opportunity?
• 41:58
  What am I missing?
• 41:59
  What Our Need to find out perhaps? What's
• 42:02
  another way I'm looking at this? What's the
• 42:03
  opportunity?
• 42:05
  But I wouldn't never be able to ask
• 42:07
  those questions genuinely
• 42:09
  if I'm stuck in my story
• 42:12
  on a dis disappearing mindset
• 42:14
  at step 2.
• 42:15
  So interrupt the pattern,
• 42:18
  feel the feeling dropped the story by riding
• 42:20
  the wave for 90 seconds, 2 minutes.
• 42:22
  And then then only when we get into
• 42:24
  a better mindset,
• 42:26
  can we ask those better questions?
• 42:28
  And I guarantee it literally every time
• 42:32
  it brings you the clarity,
• 42:35
  and even the certainty
• 42:36
  that I would never get, the people would
• 42:38
  never get it. If they hadn't to had
• 42:40
  a... I guess the discipline to to follow
• 42:42
  those 3 steps. But, again, as I mentioned
• 42:44
  several times now, it's like a muscle.
• 42:46
  You know, it's really hard
• 42:48
  the first few 10:50, 20, 50, hundred times
• 42:51
  you do it, but the more you do
• 42:52
  it, these becomes.
• 42:55
  Scott Walker. Thank you so much for for
• 42:56
  joining me today. I would have a fascinating
• 42:58
  conversation emblem Of the remarkable career you've you've
• 43:01
  had so far and the the great work
• 43:03
  that you're doing on the behalf of individuals
• 43:05
  families,
• 43:06
  corporations.
• 43:07
  Thank you for sharing our insights with me
• 43:08
  today.
• 43:09
  You're welcome. Thank you.