Latest / Master Your Yoga Teaching with MaKenzie Fly / What Yoga Is Missing: Biomechanics, Fascia & Functional Movement w/ Shelby Hicks
Transcript
- MaKenzie Fly: What's up, everybody, and welcome back to NYYT, where you are learning to level up your yoga teaching one masterful class at a time. This week I'm joined by Shelby Hicks, a yoga teacher and movement educator who's worked with brands like Nike and Tonal. She teaches yoga anatomy in Jonah Kest's yoga teacher trainings, and she recently launched her own fitness and yoga app. Shelby's philosophy: let's prioritize biomechanics over burning yoga. Calories. Amen, sister. In this episode, we're getting into what biomechanics actually means and why understanding it could completely change how you approach yoga sequencing, the surprising connection between all that hamstring stretching and the dreaded phenomenon known as the yoga butt. Why fascia is so much more interesting than the stuff that we're trying to stretch or foam roll, and what emerging research has Shelby geeking out? What's really happening when we talk about lymphatic drainage and whether those Trendy massages are doing what people think they are, the kitchen sponge analogy, and that might change how you think about hydration, movement, and the sensations in your body. The fascinating conversation about heat, fluidity, and something called structured water that sent us down an unexpected rabbit hole. What shall we learn from creating content from major fitness brands and how that influenced the launch of her own app? Why creating content isn't necessarily the answer to growing your yoga business, and what makes the process a whole lot more enjoyable, the tricky conversations yoga teachers sometimes have to navigate when working for big companies while building something of their own. and why some of the best education you can bring to your yoga students might actually come from outside the yoga world. There are so many nuggets in this one, whether you're looking to expand your understanding of anatomy, make your classes more functional, or build a yoga business that gives you more creative freedom. I know you're gonna love this one, so turn it up and let's dive in. Shelby: a lot of the time if you're moving inefficiently You might be able to do a hundred-pound squat, but you're kind of losing and leaking energy in certain places, and that can eventually lead to pain. Whereas if we make the vessel, the body, really stable and efficient and fluid and move how it's supposed to, then we can produce that same amount of force with so much more ease, so much less effort, MaKenzie Fly: What's up? Hello. Shelby: Going live. MaKenzie Fly: Yes, we are live. Hi, Shelby. Thank you so much for coming on to the pod. I am so happy that you are here. Shelby: I'm so happy to be here. This will be a fun conversation. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. Well, I think I wanted to start by just asking you, how does it feel to be so cool? Because you are such a s I mean, a seemingly cool, but I mean, just by I already know that you are, by all of the awesome opportunity that has come your way. You have connection with Nike, with I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Jonah Kest and his Become a Yogi YTT. You live in New York City. What is it like to be so cool? Shelby: That's so sweet. I I guess I just really try to have a lot of fun. I never thought I would end up in New York City. and how how I met Jonah and his wife Renee is another like very serendipitous story when I was just getting started in my yoga career. And so I feel like all these like little coincidences kind of end up bringing you to where you are, but I like to think it it's just like follow your curiosities and eventually they lead you, you know, somewhere that to you is really fun. MaKenzie Fly: Yes, it's so important. I don't know who said it, but it's like follow what lights you up. and that always is going to be a good lighthouse or guiding post. And I'm so glad for you. I think it's it's so great to just see people crushing it and and having fun and you have so many amazing things going on right now. Congrats also with the launch of your app. I Yeah, Shelby: Thank you so much. MaKenzie Fly: how's it going? Shelby: Honestly, it's been really fun to have an outlet where I can Put out classes that don't have any type of constriction. I feel like when you work for companies like tonal or even Lifetime where you're following a strict format, like obviously a format has a huge time and a place, but it's been really refreshing to be able to just film any type of class I want with no like limitations to what it can and can't be. So it's been honestly just a beautiful outlet for creativity, which is more. refreshing a lot of people were like that's a lot of work and I'm like it doesn't feel like work somehow it feels honestly like a you know an outlet so that's been really fun to explore it's brand new so it's only in its second month now so I hope to just keep building and adding meditations and other things that people request so it's been really great MaKenzie Fly: Yes. I'm so happy to hear that it has been the success and it's so well deserved. And I hear you. It's amazing to be given a format and a template, especially one that's really good, but to have the Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: spaciousness and the creative freedom to talk about what you really love and what lights you up is there's nothing like it. And from what I can see, a topic that you could yap about all day and please do is bio. Shelby: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Biomechanics and I've seen you say a couple times on socials, you'll say something what is it? I don't want to butcher it, but it's like better biomechanics over burning calories. Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: What does that mean? Shelby: So that's kind of a little series that I put out that unexpectedly went I guess viral. So it was let's prioritize biomechanics over burning calories. And I think in the fitness industry we see a lot of these programs coming out, like lean legs or five days to you know lose this amount of weight. It's all very instead of function, it's very what you look like. and I feel like the space needed to come back to What are we training for besides just how we look? Do we Want to move more freely without pain throughout our life? Do we want to be able to, you know, say somebody invited us on a really cool hiking trip for several days out in the Dolmice? We want to be able to say yes to that. feeling capable in our bodies and being able to move more freely is is kind of my point of view. So I've been putting out these little tidbits on just small, small ways you can improve your biomechanics, some exercises you could add in. your routine that help with more stability and joint strength, things like that. So that's been really fun. MaKenzie Fly: so good. So then maybe even simplify it or really pare it down and we can even start the conversation here. Like what exactly does biomechanics mean? Does it mean Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: more functional movement? yeah, let's maybe start there. Shelby: So biomechanics, I like to think about it as kind of where physics and biology meet. if you have ever studied anatomy, you've probably learned the muscles and the joints and the bones, but We take that and we learn how the laws of physics apply to movement. So if your leg is a lever, like how an engineer would think, you know, how much force can this lever produce? So it's taking those laws of physics, looking at how they act on the body, and then looking how, especially from a fascial perspective. Now, new research is coming out about the fascia, and how we can distribute and move force more. efficiently. So a lot of the time if you're moving inefficiently You might be able to do a hundred-pound squat, but you're kind of losing and leaking energy in certain places, and that can eventually lead to pain. Whereas if we make the vessel, the body, really stable and efficient and fluid and move how it's supposed to, then we can produce that same amount of force with so much more ease, so much less effort, if that makes sense. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah, that was a great definition and thank you for that. Do you how do you infuse this education in yoga teaching? Do you do you try to talk about ways in which students are this example just came to my brain this morning. I don't know why I was thinking of this, but I was like, that's a good analogy to maybe give some yoga students. I have a dance background, Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: and in dance, like they would often say, like, hold your own weight. And I was thinking about like, Have you ever tried to pick up a person that's unconscious or like they're just knocked out and they feel so heavy, they're like not holding their own weight? This is a little bit of a tangent, but kind of in this same-ish vein of like using your your own system more intelligently, or like holding your own and and maybe, maybe maneuvering through in a more effective way to where it requires like less effort, less energy. So yeah, that's like a a sidebar, but how does it Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: show up in your yoga teaching, I guess, this idea or this concept of biomechanics? Shelby: Yeah, I would say it shows up in a few different ways, but yoga in general itself is huge. Huge like practice to improve your biomechanics because of one of the main things that yoga teaches the body itself is proprioception. So the body gets better at sensing where it is in space. And when your body understands where it is in space, it can move more efficiently. So that's number one. And then how I bring it into my teachings one cues that help more intelligent proprioception, but also how we structure. A class, what types of things we choose to add to class, what types of things we might choose to take out of class. For example, I would say the yoga practice itself, while it's great for proprioception, no matter what you're teaching, there are a few types of movement that we don't get. For example, we do a lot of hamstring stretching, not a whole lot of hamstring strengthening. And that can create imbalances, whereas in a lunge which we do basically every yoga class we're getting a really a lot of work for the the quadriceps but then again not a lot of work for the hamstrings or for example there are basically no pulling movements in yoga so how might we add even if it's without weight how might we add some movements to increase the strength of those pulling muscles so I use the framework of biomechanics to Try to implement more movements that the modern body is missing. We sit in we sit in chairs and look at computers and round forward all day. So can we add more movements that externally rotate the shoulder and open the chest? And then we sit with our head forward looking at our phone. So might we counteract that with a few postures in our yoga practice? So essentially, yoga itself is great for improving biomechanics because it teaches. Teaches people where they are in space and every practice you get more aware of where your body is in space. And then but then can we take those little tidbits and help our students because we know the modern body is doing a lot of sitting, we know the bot modern body is probably not moving as much as it should be. So just adding those little things that we're missing back in. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, it's that is so great. I feel like too you could use, I mean, even as you were using the word proprioception for more like sensual cueing as a yoga teacher, it's like just really leaning into words like direction, orientation, relation, and like helping people figure out where the body is and how to how to move it in a way, how to move it. And then is this called Shelby: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: is this a thing? I feel like it it is a thing, right? Yoga butt. I think I saw articles about yoga butt where yeah, where they're Shelby: yeah, that's definitely a thing. MaKenzie Fly: like it's not like a shape or an aesthetic of it, but it's a sensation of like women complaining about their hamstrings hurting, like up into the glutes because there's so much lengthening and not enough strengthening. I I don't think Shelby: Exactly. MaKenzie Fly: I've I don't think I've had that, but I definitely Shelby: It MaKenzie Fly: am not doing the pull as much as the push. Shelby: Yeah, a lot of pushing, a lot of chaturangas, a lot of hamstring lengthening. So yeah, I think and that's where I I'm super passionate about teaching anatomy for yoga teachers. So that that is what I do for Jonah Kess's trainings. I I teach the anatomy sections for most of his trainings. And I emphasize those areas, like the the gaps in the practice, as one could say. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. So then with biomechanics and getting better proprioception, how does fascia fit into this conversation? And what ex yeah, start there. It's a big topic. and then I have more. Shelby: It is. Well, I would say fascia's essentially The whole reason that we are able to sense ourselves in space. So it plays a huge role in propriation and interoception, be able to feel ourselves from the inside out. and the fascia has more sensory receptors than any other material in the body, more than the more than the muscles. It has so many sensory receptors that now this new research is really blowing people's minds because of the Correlation with pain. We're we're having to rethink how we address treating pain and can we address it from a fascial standpoint rather than old views were like let's strengthen this muscle and let's you know put a bandage around this broken arm. Now we're having to look at it things more from a fascial perspective because they're starting to realize okay, it's not the muscle that's sending the pain signals, it's not even the joint space that's sending the pain. Signals, it's the fascia, the web of fascia that's sending the pain signals. And that can be super informative for how we go about our yoga practice. for example, most of low back pain is coming from the fascia itself, and research is now showing that these fascia cells have the ability to contract like muscle. So the reason a fascia cell would contract. is from stress. So they're seeing that When these stress hormones are high in the body, it causes these fascial cells to constrict, and when the fascia cells to constrict, the tissue gets stiff and tight, and then pain ensues. So it's really interesting what's happening in the fascial research realm right now. I think it's gonna have huge waves in yoga, in in treating pain with physical therapy, but also the the fascial web is the reason that you can feel where you are in the world. Which is really cool as well. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, wow. I'm thinking, of course, just about my experience. As I'm like, where do I even start with this? So I I've had two babies in the last four years and all through pregnancies and postpartum have practice. And if you were observing on the outside, you might say that I like look the same, but the internal experience of it is so different. Everything hurts way more. Like the stretch is not nearly as comfortable, so to speak, and I feel a lot more sensation with it. And I was thinking that a lot of it boils down to so many factors, you know. I mean just the tax on the body from nursing and how it really pulls a lot of nutrition and things like that, like from your blood, your bones, everything. And the role of hydration, like because of that, I'm always just so Thirsty and I know that hydration plays a big part with fascia. And that there was like one probably one other thing. I guess just like eating too, like needing to eat way more food for it to feel anywhere like it would feel before, but so much lower back pain, so so much like tighter in the groin or like in the inner thigh from just like carrying the baby for nine months, like. how that changes forevermore and I wonder if it would ever come back. But that's the interesting part I think about fascia is it like might not change the external shape, but it would change the internal experience of it being like really strong or like a baseline comfort level. Shelby: Hundred percent. And I mean, especially as you're growing a human on one side of your body and not not the other at the same time, you your body gets thrown out of balance and your your biomechanics have to change. and that's what the fascia research now they're showing what's called a tensegrity model. It's more like your body you don't just experience like say you're you have So you got a cesarean and you have a scar now on the front. The fascia is gonna kind of be pulled from every direction and the body's gonna have to respond in multiple ways. It's not just a small change happening in one area. It affects the whole web. So Again, when you're pregnant, the low back pain is your whole front is constricting and moving forward. So the back has to feel that compensation. So totally it will it change the inner experience a whole lot, but it will it'll also change the whole, you know, web, but the web has to counteract the the forces that the shifts in weight, all of that. So it it is super interesting when it comes to pregnancy too. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like I like that you're using the word web to explain it and even thinking of like a spider's web where if there is like a little tear that that one singular spot still really affects the whole. Is there some as I'm saying it, I'm like, isn't there some imagery or something in yoga philosophy? Is it Indra's web that reference this? It's about the interconnectivity of all things. Shelby: Interesting. I'm not sure on that one, but it sounds like they knew something about fashion MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, well I I'll look it up. I'll look it up and and follow up with that. That was so great, Shelby. Thank you for expanding and unpacking Shelby: Where is MaKenzie Fly: on that. How does then the I think also one of your I'm like obsessions, your favorite Shelby: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: things to to talk on is lymphatic drainage and those two, the relationship between those two and maybe how if the fascia is locked or stuck or isn't moving, how the lymph can't flow as well. Is that at all cor am I am I picking up what you're putting down or am I Shelby: You indeed are. You indeed are. I think the the lymphatic system is definitely having a moment right now with all of the lymphatic massage that's happening. And and I will say, like Some of when it comes to the massage stuff, dep I've heard some people be like, I had this lymphatic massage, it was so hard, it hurts so much. I was like, that sounds like a deep tissue massage. Lymphatic drainage, you can do it manually, but a lot of it and most of it happens from movement itself. manual drainage is gonna be a very light touch, and you can add this into your practice. I I like to add a super light touch down this the neck and super light touch. On the collarbones, like you're scrubbing little circles along the collarbones, but it you're not trying to get the muscle, you're trying to just stimulate the skin to move. These lymphatic ducts are right under the skin and they're housed in your loose fascia. So if the fascia tissue itself, say you're under a high amount of stress for a long period of time and your fascia gets stiff, or you don't move very much and your fascia gets stiff, or you're super dehydrated and your fascia gets stiff, that those lymphatic vessels are gonna get compressed. And your lymphatic vessels don't have a pump like the heart or like the blood has the heart to pump. So the lymphatic vessels rely on movement and being compressed by soft pressure from the muscle tissue or from gravity, from like say rebounding, jumping, running. that small amount of movement stimulates the lymphatic vessels to push the fluid along to the next vesicle. So they're kind of like blood vessels, but they've got little doors. So every Time the fluid moves to the next one, this door shuts and then moves to the next one, and that door shuts. So it eventually gets where it needs to go, but it's a longer process. So again, if you have fashion tight fascia, it's not going to move well. You might feel extra puffy, you might hold on to more fluid. And the problem with holding on to more lymphatic fluid is it is your one of your biggest detox systems. So whenever you have things that your body wants to excrete, it goes into your lymphatic. System, your lymphatic system eventually brings it to the liver, liver detoxifies it, you pee it out. So if you're holding on to fluid in the lymphatic system and it's not getting to the liver, it's going to be reabsorbed into your bloodstream and and we're not going to be able to excrete those toxins, which is ideally what we want. And I think this is where a few of those like little yoga isms, like when a tw like doing a twist in yoga is detoxized. Toxifying, it's like maybe, but like I could kind of see, yes, it's stimulate stimulating like your biggest lymphatic duct right there under your belly button. So it might be then pushing the lymphatic fluid to where it needs to go. So I see it's how some of these like little phrases have been born. yeah, did I answer the question? MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. No, that that's so so good. And I know you have so much to say. I don't want to quite go there just yet, but when I first started teaching online and it's like try to make it more hyper specific of like a certain benefit that you get from the yoga practice, I always was like, but it does literally everything. Like like it does Shelby: Exactly. MaKenzie Fly: it well, to some degree. I mean, I know we were saying that there needs to be some more polling motions and that there are gaps and movement, but when it comes to like it's detoxifying or it like lowers stress, you know, it just was was kind of hard. One thing that I w as you were speaking, I was like, is this actually true? Or is this a also buzzword like lymphatic drainage can sometimes be, or maybe it's just a little bit misunderstood. But is adrenal fatigue a real thing? Because that's really good marketing. Like I actually was like Colin, that's my husband, I was like, Do you think you have adrenal fatigue? And he's like, I don't think that's real. It's like, is it? I don't know. Shelby: I I think it depends. Like if you actually it is very common these days to be overly stressed and not getting the nutrients you need to help your body not be in that chronically stressed state. When you are chronically stressed, your adrenals are what produce those stress hormones like noradrenaline, epinephrine. So If you're chronically stressed, your adrenals are fatigued, quote unquote, from MaKenzie Fly: How do you not say that word and feel like a dickhead? It's just like fatigued. Shelby: they're fatigued from pumping out all those stress hormones all the time. so I think, you know, if you talk to say like a functional medicine expert or something, they use that term as for, you know, w when you're in that chronically stressed state, you get your vital your B vitamins depleted and a whole lot of other things depleted when you're chronically stressed. So it can lead to some downstream things. but yeah, I'm not I'm not like a doctor, but I do know where that MaKenzie Fly: I'm saying. Shelby: That term kind of gets the name at least. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, well even I mean, even that was really helpful. I guess if I think about the fascia and even the limp and what you were you were describing, the imagery and this seems classic. I feel like I I had to have heard this before from somewhere, but that imagery of a sponge at your kitchen sink, if you use it and it's got water in it, it's like you know, it's squishy. But if you let it sit there, it's gonna dry and crust up and get all brittle and maybe even break, or it's like got that. dirt and grime in it that was from your last wash. And until you put it back under the water, you move yourself through some movement and create your own heat and warmth and sweat, does it get like liquidy, liquefied again, and then like pliable and flexible and things can move and flow and you can squeeze it, squeeze and like rinse it out. That's that's what it seems like the aim of asana and movement is for your body and why it's just generally effective because it just gets things moving again. So I I love that imagery for myself personally and wanted to share it. Do you have any others that maybe can help listeners grasp it? Shelby: Love that analogy. That's a great way to look at it. And I love the fact that you brought up this idea of heat because that's another huge component to creating this more you're you're just looking to create more fluidity and fluid exchange in your tissues. and I wouldn't say this is another analogy, but I feel like myofascial release gets the wrong idea in people's minds. It's not so much of a release, it's just we're creating Creating a more fluid tissue. We don't want it to be stuck and dense. We want it to move and be pliable. And so, for example, when you're doing something like a foam rolling, there are many ways to affect your fascia. But when you're doing something like a foam roll, and especially where you find a dense or tight spot and you just hold on that spot, what's happening is we're pushing the fluid out for a time. But when the fluid gets when you take the pressure off and fluid gets reabsorbed more fluid than what had started with gets absorbed. When there's more fluid, things move better. and how you said, you know, fascia is mostly water. So being hydrated is a huge component, but also heat helps us have you ever heard of structured water? I don't know, let me know if I'm going too deep. Structured water. So when the water is inside MaKenzie Fly: No. Do wait, did you say did you say structured water? No. Shelby: your body We use heat to quote unquote structure it. And essentially it it just organizes itself in the molecules into like these very like beautiful straight lines and it it can help movement. And so when there's heat or infrared light from the sun, that can structure water as well. it w from heat from your body when you're doing yoga or heated yoga practice in a hot room, that can really help things become more fluid and more fluid exchange, more pliability, more elasticity. That's what we're going for. We don't want it things to be stuck and dense and dry. MaKenzie Fly: I have not heard of that, but there's that Kangan water machine. Have you seen this? I am this Shelby: Yes. MaKenzie Fly: close, Shelby, from buying it. If you're a listener and you're a Kengen like Shelby: Ha ha ha. MaKenzie Fly: seller, I expect you to slide into my DMs because I have been eyeing off this thing for so long. It's it's if if anybody is like, it'll make you happy, healthy, and beautiful, I'm like, I'll take a dozen. I am the easiest sale, the easiest sale ever. Shelby: You're like fine. Hilarious. MaKenzie Fly: But that is wild that like water could be alive or organized. I had never heard that before. And Shelby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's structured water. It's also referred to as fourth, fourth phase water. there's a lot of new research coming out on it now, and there's several books on it, and it's super fascinating. MaKenzie Fly: Whoa, well this is bad because as I'm Shelby: Ha ha ha. MaKenzie Fly: as I every day and every year I'm getting more and more like OCD and this is so dramatic. This sentence is so dramatic. And yet I said it to my husband the other day and meant it with my full body. I said the words, The clutter feels like a threat to my survival. And I was like, I was like, Shelby: It does. MaKenzie Fly: my gosh, that is So dramatic. Am I serious? Am I for real? And I was like, I am though. So now I have the water inside my body to also organize. Thanks, Shelby. Shelby: But movement itself, like getting on your yoga mat, moving, that in itself structures the water. Being outside, getting sunlight structures the water. So you're you're getting it. You're getting it. MaKenzie Fly: That's that's sweet. Well, if this was your I mean, is there anything else you want to add within this realm of biomechanics, of fascia, of lymphatic drainage? Because I would also love to pick your brain about the amazing business that you've built and launching your app and and things like that. So so just put a little bow on that section before we dive into those other things. Shelby: Totally. I would say that when it comes to if you're interested in this topic, what when it comes to furthering your education, sometimes taking a step outside the yoga world, like picking up a, you know, it doesn't have to be a biomechanics book, but it could be something that like a personal trainer might read. Just any any following any curiosities, you're always gonna find something that you can bring back to the yoga mat. And your yoga mat or your yoga practice doesn't have to be a complete physical practice. For me, I do a lot of weightlifting. I do a lot of other types of functional training. And I try to remind people that yoga isn't supposed to be the end all be all physical practice. It's more for yes, it's a physical practice, but it's also for mindfulness, for proprioception, you know, to create that ease where else where you can also find effort somewhere else. Like it doesn't have to be everything. So MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, I think Jason Crandall, he was one of the guests maybe gosh, almost a year ago now. But he was talking about how like the longer he's in the yoga world, the more he's looking outside the yoga bubble for other answers or just different ways of expressing and communicating ideas and bringing that in. So I think that's such great advice to to obviously it's important to focus on one, zero in, like get a level of mastery, but also have a have a willingness to learn from from others and in so many ways see that a lot of people are talking about the same thing just using different words and ideas to express or communicate that how that's happening so really really great where do i even start with your business i guess i guess i would love to to know about the labor i'm sure the labor of love in launching your app Of maybe what it looked like behind the scenes to birth that and to create it. Shelby: Hmm. Well, for the longest time I thought I wanted to do an online yoga platform and I yeah, I I'm not sure what moment it was where I pivoted, but I've found myself at this crossroads because I have such a passion for biomechanics, functional movement, kettlebell training and mobility, but also my love for yoga and how it teaches more of the philosophy and it it just o broadens your view on how to move through life, whereas some types of physical training, it's like just the exercise, we're not even We're not even talking any type of spirituality. So I love how yoga brought that into the physical practice. So I was like, do I go the yoga route and just make an online platform? And I ended up wanting to have a space where I could have both. and I ended up being approached by an amazing company called Playbook, that they have the software to build apps, and so I found that it just made a lot of sense to be able to offer those more functional kettlebell style programs, but also ha have a space that could hold some kind of functional flows and functional vinyasa flows as well. Because those were just I e I can't, you know, I can't do just one. I gotta have both. so I had filmed some classes last summer and finally just letting those see the light of day. I I launched in September and it's now just October. So having having those kind of backlogged gave me a little bit more peace of mind to focus on the other stuff a little bit more space freed up and Yeah, it's like if you know you want to do something in the future, just start. Maybe you never even use those classes, but it's nice to just have something. I think that that's the hardest part is the just starting. You're like, okay, when when I have this certification or when I feel comfortable here, here and here, then I'm gonna start working on my website or my app. It's like if you just start and you just for me it was like putting the app out there even when it doesn't have like 50 classes in the library. I I was like, it's not good enough yet. But if you just put it out and build on it every month, then that at least gets you moving. because I do feel like it's like the starting that's the hard part. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's such great advice. I often encourage yoga teachers to see if they actually like the process of producing the deliverables and letting that be the experiment and that be the focus of the first like month or two. It's like that's the intention and that's the purpose to even see if you like producing. Like actually making, creating the thing that you're promising. Because a lot of people just think with the end in mind. They're like, I want the app, I want the thing, and they think about the done product, but then they actually hate what it takes to make it. So d have you noticed that being the case, or what what does it look like? I think I even saw on your Instagram story today, content filming day, and what does it actually look like to produce what people see, that polished thing that they see at the end that is not what is That's not like, you know, what really happens behind the scenes all the time. And there's so much that goes into making that thing. And are you enjoying the process or maybe since it's still in the beginnings of it, are you already noticing what you want to pivot or tweak to make it more enjoyable, more fun, more more flow, like more easeful? Shelby: I think well one I I've been teaching digitally for a while so I kind of knew what to expect when it comes to producing those classes and and the type of content that does well. Typically for online classes, you know, even for the classes that I've filmed for tonal, they can look at all these analytics and while some people, a small minority, will say we want full sixty minute classes, the majority of the people want you Know 20 to 30 minutes. That's their attention span when it comes to these online platforms when you're not in person. so I kind of knew what the general audience wanted, and obviously, there's gonna be outliers that you can play with later on. so I knew kind of what format I wanted to start with. Thankfully, I am lucky, and my husband is a videographer. so that makes a huge difference. MaKenzie Fly: no, that is does that does. That changes the whole game. What's it like? Shelby: It really does. So it's he's been so supportive and helpful and just encouraging me to to do this for a long time, which is you know, a whole nother thing. but MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, I love to hear that. Shelby: but it it's been great because he Is the videographer and then he edits it for me, and that's a huge piece. that I one don't have to hire someone and make sure they know what they're doing and test it out. so that that is a huge piece off my plate, and I know that everybody else who is doing this, whether you're filming it yourself at home or ha or hiring someone, there are many ways to go about it. and nowadays, say you just hired someone if you wanted to do this yourself and you just Hired someone to video and you could take all the footage and send it off to somebody international and they'd edit it for you. So there are other ways to to do it now. but that is a huge you know piece that makes it a little bit easier for me is that I've got somebody who knows what they're doing. but but there are it it don't think of if you want to make an online platform yourself in the future, don't think about it as a huge hurdle. it's like you're investing in yourself and and your future and I feel like anytime you do that and I think it's Jonah who says like you know yoga always provides it's like the second you take that chance on yourself you it it seems to eventually work itself out. Maybe not the first year, but eventually if you take the chance on yourself and move in in that direction, things will start to open up for you. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I love Jonah. I met him, Shelby: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: God, when he was like a baby, like 17 or 18. Shelby: my gosh. MaKenzie Fly: We were at Camp Tamarack, back when Lifetime did Camp Tamarack, like I don't know, 10 years ago, maybe. And then God, it was before my first son, Finn, who's now about to turn three, I it was like four years ago, he was our headliner at a yoga festival that I hosted here in Las Vegas. And then he just came through town. not long ago to do a a class at a studio here called Vibe. and he's been on the podcast as well. So if you're a listener and you haven't checked out his episode, that is such a great one. We talked on music and how to really leverage music to almost be the second teacher in the room and just set the set set moods and mirror the message and all all sorts of things. so all that is so great. I think I I don't know, maybe I I need to take a more of a peek of the platform that you've created, but Has there been any interesting lessons or learnings that you've had yet about or even in the stuff that you did for your other places like Nike and what word are you saying? What's the other place? T T Tonal. Okay. Shelby: Tonal. So it's a digital p it's kinda like a cable machine that goes on the wall. It it uses digital weight and so I film a MaKenzie Fly: I Shelby: lot of yoga content for them. MaKenzie Fly: cool. So let's talk about like managing community and engaging with the people that are in your platform and how do you be basically a really cool host of a party? What like tips on managing? Yeah, Shelby: That's fun way to think about it. MaKenzie Fly: I I always like I myself think like, Am I making this a really fun party that people would want to be at? Am I making it cool? Am I making it like people actually want to come? Because it's my job to do that as the host. so anyway, in your own words, like what are some tips that you can share with yoga teachers who are building something of their own to make like manage the community better in a way that they firstly enjoy it and then two, it makes people want to engage and participate and react and respond and actually use and get the return on the investment of being in your world. Shelby: I think well what I'm still figuring that out, I think when it comes to Instagram at least, that's always been a place where I've just kinda share what I'm doing, what I'm eating, recipes I'm making. Thank you. MaKenzie Fly: You're crushing it on Instagram. That is you're you're crushing that management of community. Shelby: so I kind of just thought about it almost like an extension of that. It's like Yes, I posted my you know breakfast on my Instagram story and then I'm giving my community the recipe in the app. or you know, just it's kind of like an extension of just I I've never thought about it too much, but somebody told me, you you're just so open on Instagram, you share everything and I'm and I just have never thought about not. I guess I'm not a very private person. I'm just like, this is cool, take a photo. and so I just share what I'm interested in, what I'm reading, the workouts I'm doing, when I'm at home and I'm just figuring out a flow, sometimes I'll just, you know, put up a camera and time lapse myself and put that on my story. so I kind of just I wanted it to feel real. so sometimes in the community on my app, like I'll be like, this is what I talked about in my yoga classes, in my in person yoga. yoga classes this week. This was my theme. you know, this is what the book that inspired, you know, these ideas and this is what I shared with everybody. I hope it resonates. So I just whatever I'm interested in, I feel that helps me not get burnt out on Because creating content is a job, but I think we get burnt out when we think about it like, what what can I produce? I I need to come up with ideas. It's like, no, just take a second and don't produce content for a week or two. Be like, what am I interested in? What do I want to keep learning? What books am I drawn to? If I had two whole weeks off where I didn't have to work, I didn't have to produce content. And I could just focus on what I was interested in, what would that be? And if you followed those streams. then you're learning too as you're making content about those things. And it ends up being one educational for you, but two less draining and more fun because it's something you're actually interested in instead of just trying to pump out content like you know that's my two cents MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's a good two cents. I was just having this conversation with lots of my students inside. I have a Yogipreneur mastermind. It's kind of for yoga teachers who are wanting to build beyond the studio and be more of an independent that's less reliant on studio teaching. And I was telling them like the things that you share on social media, it's easier when you source it, when you pull it from the work that you're doing in your paid spaces. So it's not this like separate thing. You're not sitting down and like recreating something from scratch, but you're just extracting takeaways from the things that you're already doing. And that way it feels like so much more effortless. It feels more easy. And it creates a perfect pathway to then talk about your paid spaces and and send that invitation. Like if this resonates with you, if this is helpful for you, then here's where we can go like way deeper. so I wanted to share that here too, because that was game changer for me me as well. Like when I when I started thinking about my content, when I started thinking about my social media content is just like the ideas come from my yoga classes. They come from the conversations Shelby: Mm. Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: that I'm having with my students. You're already doing it. It's not sit down and make Shelby: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: it happen. It's like you just in living your life today, there's 80 billion stories that you could potentially pull and use. So h that's my two cents. Yeah. Shelby: True, or is if it's just something you're going through when somebody probably else has gone through it before as well. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Shelby: and I think there's it's interesting, like I see this shift happening towards Substack and it's like people really do just want to Get not necessarily get more analog, but they just want to hear they just want to feel connected in some capacity, like, I'm going through this, somebody else went through that too. so you just I know it it's tough to open up sometimes or you s if you're suffering sometimes you kinda wanna just be alone in your suffering, but I think instead of thinking about it like content, like a job, just think about it as w how what am I doing in my life? What's happening in my life in my mind and how might that make somebody else feel connected? MaKenzie Fly: So good. I was muted, but I did go at one point when you said Shelby: Ha ha MaKenzie Fly: you said something about like suffering by yourself. There's this other phrase that I love that's what is it, isolation amplifies and amplifies Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: and community normalize. Like there's some sort of Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: rhyme in there. I I I love a good rhyme. I guess the last thing, Shelby, that I would love to see how you're navigating this, because I've run into this a couple of times with Building your own platform while also working at a corporate place and there being like some compete and n nothing like personal, just professional conversations that you have to have in situations like this. And yeah, have you have you had any instances where you trying to build your own thing, you felt either held back or like you couldn't because of the association or the affiliation that you had with some places, and if so. How did you navigate that maintaining your yoga and Shelby: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: keeping your grace? Shelby: I think it is really important to come back to I know we are all yoga teachers, we teach asana, but I think if you really want to be a yoga teacher, you have to live your life from those foundations of yoga first, the yamas and niyamas, and let that be how you navigate the world, but also use those as boundaries. Like if somebody's coming at you from a place that isn't you know, compassionate or it isn't Clinly, you know, you have to be like, okay, I'm gonna place these boundaries. I think in the yoga world, something that I don't really agree with that happens a lot are non-competes. And I think unless you're being paid a full salary with benefits, you should not have to sign a non-compete. So I have been able to navigate Nike, tonal, and lifetime with zero non-competes. So, You just have to stand up for yourself. You just have to say what you are and aren't comfortable with and say because it it is not from a financial standpoint in New York City, especially, they have no right to have you sign a non-compete. It probably won't hold up in court. so now that we do have AI, that is an instance where I would use it and be like, how might I phrase something like this. What are my rights? If you, if somebody's asking you to sign a non-compete and you and it's not a full living wage, how how might you use legal lingo that I'm not an expert in to then come up with a response, a a fair and just response to come to a compromise, an agreement, say I still want to work with you, obviously. Like I how can we come to a mutual agreement that benefits us both. and at the end of the day it might close some doors, but I think your freedom and you being able to post what you want online. Things like that is just so worth it to not ever have to you know, I I've I've been in some situations where they want you to not post certain things or sign away this and it's like, no, I just want to be my full self. I want to be authentic with people. and yeah, yoga yoga shouldn't be for sale like that, where it's like you you can't teach it here or there or yeah, that rubs me the wrong way. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. You said it so perfectly and I'm so I agree fullheartedly and I've had instances like that. And I think I think it's even more corporations are really trying to crack down wanting the people who work there to like teachers to not lead YTTs unless it's for their for them or you can't lead workshops that give Yoga Alliance credits unless it's there. And it's like trying to ensure that the teachers are then, you know, bringing value to the club, but then or to the place. But then it also makes it very difficult for the teacher to feel like they can be fully expressed or like, you know, it no longer feels like a privilege to be places. And it makes it just like very, very challenging to, like you even said, make a living. And therefore a coarse resentment comes in because you're like What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do in this position? So I'm just sending some love to anybody who is maybe navigating this. I'm offering myself up for if you want to reach out and talk. I don't know if Shelby feels comfortable for that as well. Like please lean on me as a resource. Shelby: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: yeah, if you're going through that. Shelby: And I think one thing that you could ask if if a company does want you to sign a non-compete, you could just genuinely ask them like for for what reason and how as especially if you're a contractor, as a contractor, like how is this non compete going to be mutually beneficial if by signing it it is your club or your business going to then promote me and market me so that I don't have to do that? Okay, it might be beneficial in some capacity. capacity. But if you I'm still having to market myself, sell out my own classes and do all of this and then also not allowed to teach anywhere else, then then that's a no MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah. And on that note, Shelby, you have offered so much. I think we've covered so many things in this conversation, like went all over the map in the best of ways. Thank you so much for your generosity of just teaching, teaching us things, helping us. just lowering our resistance, giving us that permission slip and pep talk that we didn't even know we needed. I am so grateful to have had you. And I would love for you to tell everybody how they can plug into this new app, how they can get involved in maybe one of the YTTs where you're teaching the anatomy, maybe some retreat that you have coming up. So how do they get in touch with you? Shelby: Yeah, so my website is calibrateyogo.com. I teach anatomy for a lot of Jonah's trainings, not all of them, but the next one I'll be teaching his anatomy for is next May in North Carolina. So that one will be great. but all of Jonah's trainings are fabulous. He always brings in a really cool team it's always a collaboration every time I'm a part of those I just have such a great experience myself. I'm like this is great it's like yoga yoga camp but MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Shelby: as for my app you can it's on playbooks so you can find it on best find it on my Instagram my yoga specific Instagram is calibrate yoga and then my personal is shelves for four and you'll be able to find the MaKenzie Fly: Awesome. Shelby: app there Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Perfect. Yeah. Well, of course, I will link everything in the description for you to get plugged in. And if you loved this episode, dear listener, it would be amazing if you would send it to a fellow yoga teacher or anybody who you think would value from this conversation, just to let them know that you were thinking about them. And until next Wednesday, Namaste, everybody. Bye.