Latest / Leaders in Lending / No Place Like Home Equity: 2024 Lending Insights

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No Place Like Home Equity: 2024 Lending Insights · Leaders in Lending

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You are listening to Leaders in Lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping
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consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here,
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decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending
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industry, best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the
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show. Hi, Welcome everyone. I'm Matt Snowe here with another episode of
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Leaders in Lending here at CBA Live, joined by Mike Shephard, chair of
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the Home Equity Committee. Welcome Mike. Yeah, thanks, nice to be
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with you. Yeah. Absolutely, So why don't you maybe start by explaining
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your role as the chair of the Home Equity Committee. Yeah sounds good.
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So yeah. So CBA has several committees that they put together, and one
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of them is focused on home equity lending, and so I'm the chair of
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that particular committee. Me. It's made up of about forty banks or so,
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and they're all varying degrees of size, right, which actually is one
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of the interesting things about the committee is you have very large organizations like US
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Bank and Bank of America Bank of America participate, but you also have then
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several smaller organizations and so you know, like I said, it's about forty
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members and we get together on a regular basis to talk about different areas of
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the business they're impacting each of us and kind of sharing best practices. Okay,
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great, And you've been in banking for some time. It's always funny
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listening to some of the past episodes and how people get into banking, and
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it seems like almost not many people grow up as you had, like dreaming
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of being a banker. What's your story a little bit? Was that always
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a goal career goal of yours of Yeah, so I am a longtime US
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banker. This is year twenty seven at the bank, so I've been around
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a long time seeing the organization grow in different ways. Yeah. I think
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we all say we are accidental bankers in some way, shape or form.
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What's interesting is, you know, my background was actually in call centers and
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ultimately just got into kind of product development and so started at the bank and
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at an early stage and really got into product design and have had the fortune
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to be in a variety of different business units, whether it's out of traditional
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retail, lending, cards, prepaid things like that. But it's a really
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interesting I think just space that's focused on like solving customer problems. When the
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day is done, right and we therevers stuff. They discussion about this yesterday
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about how banks can help facilitate really the end goal for the consumer and home
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ownership and saving for whatever they're looking to do in the future, and that
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I think is always the interesting part is how can we be part of solving
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the problems that consumers have in mainishing their day to day finances. Yeah.
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I find that's one one of the things I like about conferences es, especially
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the CBA. It's really centering. It brings you back to, you know,
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what we're trying to do in terms of solving problems for the consumers.
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Yeah. And if you think about the theme for this year is for the
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people, which is you know, right squarely in the center of Obviously we're
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here to serve customers. Whether they're retail consumers, small businesses, it doesn't
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matter, right, I mean, for the people is what it's all about.
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Yeah, definitely. And so maybe back to the committee, tell me
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more about like the role of the committee. You know, what what do
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you guys do in terms of policy benchmarking some of the studies you do.
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Yeah, I think one of the things that's interesting is back to the point
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that we have such a varying degree of size, right, we're able to
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really use it as a chance to share what's happening at kind of the macro
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level. How is each institution looking at this, How are they looking at
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what's happening, you know, not getting into in anything proprietary, but what's
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happening in the business, right, And that's the benefit of CBA as a
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total right to be able to bring together all of the institutions that are part
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of the CBA family. And so we spend time, right, so we
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get into kids of monthly meetings, and then we actually have a couple of
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subcommittees that also ntion that allow us to go deeper into specific topics, whether
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it's risk or fulfillment or potentially or be on the product side. And so
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we just get into this routine that allows us to share what's happening. And
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then honestly, right, you do learn something. I learned something from you
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know, some of the smaller institutions, and I've heard directly from members about
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how they learn when they're able to talk directly with large institutions as well.
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And that's ultimately I think is you know, collaboration as a word videos a
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lot both upon our committee as well as for I think CBA overall. How
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are we able to collaborate to kind of raise the bar for everybody? Oh?
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Nice? And I'm sure you know we're all experiencing the impact of the
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changing and rising rate environment. I'm sure that's a hot topic. Like how
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are you seeing that impact home equity specifically? Yeah, so home equity.
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The industry of home equity is interesting because it's obviously been kind of in a
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state of flux and in a state of fluck for several years now post financial
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crisis. You know, twenty twenty two was a really strong year for the
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industry. We saw balances grow for the market overall. Obviously, institutions were
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seeing some individual success and that was really driven off of if you just remember
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at the significant and increase in interest rates that occurred, and so cash out
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refives really dried up, and as consumers wanted to continue deliverage the equity they
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had on the home, they were able to use that through a traditional home
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equity loan or home equity lineup credit. Yeah, you know, now you
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get into twenty three in early twenty four, you know, you have rates
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that are higher, which then there's a there's a perceptual challenge that consumers still
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have about you know, in is a rate that is pick a number eight
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ten percent, which is higher than what they're used to. And so I
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think we're all then we're seeing that now transpire in originations. We're definitely softer
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in twenty three versus what we saw in twenty twenty two, and even twenty
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twenty four is starting a little bit off that same way now on the flip
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side, I think what we also are seeing though is a significant change and
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reduction and nutrition because people would have historically, if they had an existing home
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equity account, they may have paid that off as they refinanced their first mortgage,
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and that refinance activity is slow, which is then providing some relief and
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some benefit on the home equity balance as side. So while originations maybe slowing,
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your balances are starting to hold their own because you're you're not seeing as
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much attrition, okay, and credit quality quality pretty stable through that time for
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sure. Yeah, I mean I think we definitely have seen I think some
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changes in the through the door and these are the things that we we actually
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had a committee meeting on Sunday and we're able to talk a little bit about
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this. You know, some of the through the door populations are changing,
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yeah, with a little bit. You know, still very much in kind
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of the prime space, but but going out a little bit because some of
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the consumers may have historically used a cash out refi and now they're not.
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They're going to go to a home equity as a way to facilitate the way
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to extract the equity in their home. But you know, banks are still
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very sound and their credit guidelines in certainly your determination of credit, your ability
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to repay, as well as then the collateral valuations a way I'll have to
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do in making a decision I'm offering that loan. Yeah, and what about
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like the consumer in terms of like how they think about just the awareness of
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the product, how they use the funds. You see that changing as things
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are getting more expensive. Cars are more expensive. I was talking to Mark
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and Melinda about that yesterday. You know, how are people using the funds
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that are thinking about home equity as a tool in their financial tool case.
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Yeah, so these single you know, number one intended use is still about
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home improvement, not a surprise. And then the second is that consolidation and
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again meeting get into detail, but I think I've definitely heard some from some
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of my colleagues that there's an increasing mix towards that consolidation versus home improvement,
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but it is still the overwhelming intended use is still on home improvement. And
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you know, and I think we're all then still very kind of optimistic about
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the future because consumers are locked into very low first mortgage rates and as they
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are thinking about upgrading their house, they may then use the equity that they
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have in their home to upgrade it, versus being you know, moving to
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another house in their neighborhood or into another part of the city that they're in
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because they want to keep that three percent four percent mortgage rate that they have
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on their first mortgage. And so, you know, we think there's still,
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you know, between all the tappable equity that consumers have and then kind
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of very low mortgage rates that does create a really compelling opportunity for an asset
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class like home equity. Yeah, and I can't remember where this was,
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but I was talking to someone else too who mentioned like the additions on houses
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up like building. Yes, you know, vertically is much more popular now
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because it's it's cheaper them that. Yeah. So one of the use cases
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that I know several of us are looking at is what they call ADUs accessory
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dwelling units, And it's a really interesting new kind of use case that's coming
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around how people can either add a standalone kind of unit in their backyard or
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potentially doing an addition above a garage or something like that. And it may
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start out as a as a as a rental property and then could transition into
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a living space for an elderly parent or something like that to move in.
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And so it really becomes an interesting way to be able to use your existing
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property, stay in that, use the equity that you have, and then
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kind of expand over time. Yeah. Are there any other upstream or downstream
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impacts of things that you guys are forecasting, like changes in the market,
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home prices, inventory that that are driving that as well? You know,
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I think everybody is still relatively optimistic about home values right when I can see
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page or drop off. I think the industry still feels like, you know,
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it's going to be stable. There's not going to be you know,
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probably not the same level of home appreciation, but not a big drop off,
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and certainly there can be very different you know, pockets of the country
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based off of certain geographies, but overall home press appreciation appears to be quite
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strong maintaining. And then it really comes down to, right, the consumers
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comfort in taking on that additional debt, right, because that's the part that
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I think, you know, back to what we said in more high in
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rates is part of it than the psychology of right, I'm a comfortable taking
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on or borrowing another pick a number, right, thirty sixty eighty thousand dollars
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to be able to do this work, knowing that I have to now have
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that monthly payment into my budget. Yeah, that's interesting. So the consumers
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almost become a resource of like a barometer on the industry as well or where
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they think it's going to go. The wage growth, employment which seems surprisingly
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resilient still correct, So that's kind of their their sentiment. Yeah, yeah,
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I mean, if a consumer feels optimistic about their job and and what's
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going to happen to their house, right, they may feel more comfortable than
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making these investments. And some of this that also becomes almost forced. Right,
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if you are having your second child, or if you're having you know,
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kind of an expansion in your family and you need to add additional square
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footage versus again to you, you can't afford to move to another house,
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so you're gonna then stay in at existing house with your little monthly payment on
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your mortgage and then have that additional uh you know payment into it with the
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home equity. Gotcha. So maybe back to the committee for a minute,
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like talk more about the member benefits there. Are you collecting data from the
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banks that are members of that doing benchmarking or what kind of other feedback are
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you getting. Yeah, so we don't collect, we don't do anything as
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individual members, and c ME doesn't facilitate that. But there are several kind
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of consortiums that collect information and then are and and they're used to help kind
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of give us an idea what's happening in the market, both on the origination
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side as well as on the balance and the portfolio side, which is important.
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Right. We we tend to spend a lot of time talking about genations
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and what's happening with new accounts and applications and all that stuff. But so
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you know, my earlier point, when you have such a change in EU
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attrition, your portfolio performance and also becomes really important and so you know,
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the committee then will use insights from companies like that to help then you know,
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what are we seeing and really driving different behaviors on you know, kind
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of your through the door profile and an even the kind of some of your
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pull through rates and things like that. So the Committee doesn't do that companies,
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but you know there's third parties that will do that, and then you
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know, many times you will ask them to come in and share what they're
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seeing for the market so that you know everybody on the committee has that same
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understanding. Any geographic patterns that the people are saying, not a ton.
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I mean, I think you would expect, you know, kind of the
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typical and the large metroma halted areas. There hasn't been any major that we're
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seeing any fundamental kind of changes based off of your again, you're through the
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door, your credit profiles for start geographies, that's one. Like everybody has
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felt pretty good about kind of where the markets are at and the biggest variable
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all that, quite frankly, is just your home appreciation. Yeah, gotcha.
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and now back to the show. Another thing interesting about the CBA is
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on the floor in sessions lots of presence of regulators. So how do you
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guys interface with policymakers, regulators and think about your role in that capacity?
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Yeah, I mean certainly that's a key part of what CBA is all about,
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is their ability to then represent the industry to then help make influence either
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with regulators or on Capitol Hill through through Dave and Sam and so. Right
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as there are things that are coming up that they are educating us, which
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I think is an important part because obviously we're not close to that day in
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and day out. So we utilize those guys to help educate us of what
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they're hearing and what they think might be coming up. And then also then
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how we can then utilize them to be able to influence, you know,
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if there's something that we want to make sure is accurately represented from a home
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equity perspective, and some of this may not be home equity specific, right,
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because it may be about residential real estate, whether it's mortgage or home
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equity. Can we kind of get lumped into just the broader you know,
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real estate lending use case, But that's really in a part of how do
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we use CBA, How does how didn's forty one banks ultimately kind of represent
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their institutions as well as all institutions to be able to then help influence if
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there's something coming on the policy side. Gotcha, are there any major changes
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that you guys are are specifically we're not on what no, right, So
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obviously there's a lot of other things happening at the Bureau and on the and
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on the hill and not gonna win at this point. We haven't had anything
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that's that's coming that that that is you know, on the foreseeable future.
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Gotcha, Yeah, I hope, queen. I think a pretty stable,
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like reputable product. I know we've also talked about other maybe like unsecure or
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small dollar lending that you've got some experience in. Maybe share some of the
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compare and contrast some of those products in your experience, how the consumers are
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using them, how they're viewed from a regulation. Yeah, well, the
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day is done, right. I think we tend to spend a lot of
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time, like we talk a lot about products, and we also need to
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take a step back and think, I mean, the consumer needs access to
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money to be able to buy goods and services, and how do we think
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about those underlying reasons why they need money first and less about products initially,
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And so unsecured is a great exailple right. If a consumer needs access to
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thirty thousand dollars, may able to do some work on their house, which
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is a pretty typical home equity use case. Those are squarely in the sweet
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spot for some traditional unsecured loans. And so we spent a lot of time.
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One of our sessions yesterday actually was kind of this debate and discussion about
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unsecured versus home equity, Where does it begin? Where does it end?
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Obviously, you always want to be thinking about what is in the best interests
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of the consumer first, and it's not just always about price. It's about
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convenience and simplicity and cost and all that stuff. And each product has different
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pros and cons and so we definitely spend a lot of time thinking, Okay,
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I mean, all the institutions, how does you know a larger dollar
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amount, a longer term, a monthly payment, interest rate all factor into
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that solution that makes the most sense for the consumer. But for the industry,
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you know, home equity and unsecured have done kind of competitors at times
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and kind of compliments at times. So I think there's this there is a
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balance there. But certainly, you know, we know that unsecured is,
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in particular in some of the point of sale situations, are very much used
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as an alternative home improvement. Yeah. I like that anchoring back, like
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we started with, you know, what is the consumer need that we're trying
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to solve, which can be sometimes hard, especially as any organization is going
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to be broken up organized around products. Right, You're trying to develop something
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specific to bring to market anything the committee is seeing or are people talking about
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innovations in you know, how they structure organizations develop products to you know,
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make it simpler for the consumer to say here's the need I have versus you
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know, someone going in like you might go into a traditional retail store and
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say, here's the product I'm looking for off the shelf. Yeah. I
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don't know if there's anything innovation innovative necessarily, but I think there's much more
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of a mindset of connect acting with your stakeholders within the organization if you don't
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have unsecured, like how our home equity people connect you with unsecured. And
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what's interesting about the committee is, you know, we have people that represent
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home equity and mortgage, and we have people that represent home equity and unsecured,
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and so like you get very different. Like some people are like,
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well, I'm thinking about it through the lens of kind of that use case
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through home equity and unsecured, and others are like, well, I'm thinking
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about the kind of residents real estate, and I need to be very intentional
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to talk to my unsecured colleagues, whether that's in you know, kind of
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unsecure versual home. We also can't lose out of credit cards, right obviously
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credit cards or right, you know, it can be an enabler for a
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consumer to make a eight to ten thousand dollars purchase with a really relatively low
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interest rate. So there isn't necessarily anything innovative in tech that we've talked about,
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but I definitely hear more from my colleagues about how they're proactively reaching out.
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And also then you know, how are risk people talking? Right,
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So what is our risk poblicies for unsecured versus home equity? And where is
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there the larties and where are the differences? So it all is kind of
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just I'll go back to collaboration, right, Yeah, and that collaboration and
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coordination at the committee level in addition to and individual institutions. Yeah, and
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I can imagine that could be really hard, especially in the financial services industry.
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You'd like a clear answer, like you can't really ab test like if
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they give this person a personal loan versus a whole equity loan, Like how
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are they going to perform? What's their long term relationship? That is?
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That would be an idel state. You got to have a little bit more
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time, you know, and you could do some creative things around potential some
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of your marketing pages on your website or things like that. But ultimately,
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yeah, I mean, the data is done. They need to take a
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PRODUCTY or a product B. Yeah, and then go down a particular path.
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And another theme I'm seeing this week, and it could be my own
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bias for the things I'm looking for, is just around artificial intelligence again,
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the ability to make things more automated, the ability to help serve the consumer,
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get them their questions and needs answered faster. How are you seeing that
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come through in the whole equity space. Yeah, I think I think come
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equity is I'm a baseball guy, right, so I think we're in the
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maybe the top or bottom of the first inning on our equity side relative to
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potentially other use cases and other products. Partly because you know this is still
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a and I think it's right for opportunity, but it's so early, because
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you know the process is still quite manual. How do you then find ways
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to be able to use additional data, additional technologies to be able to automate
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but not then increase your risk or exposure. Sure, and that's the uncertainty
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that I think a lot of institutions have is how can I bring that in
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but not then and also then obviously still continue to comply with all the necessary
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regulations and rules, but not then always forced the consumer to bring us documents.
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So that's an area that the Committee has spent a lot of time on
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over the years. Is it is just where are there opportunities for us collectively
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to simplify and automate? And certainly there are some new engines that are doing
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that and setting up our height and that's good, right. I mean,
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I think the the industry needs to be pushed to be able to say,
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how do we then all step up to be able to then deliver some of
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the similar experiences that that new entrants are providing. Yeah, are you saying
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like safer areas to start in? Is it verification, is it underwriting?
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Is it in the you know, the user experience. I think it's going
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to be more on the kind of on the the collection of documentation. Okay,
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as your as your starting point, Yeah, I think beyond that,
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I think it's it gets a little bit tricky, and I think less aptitude
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or interest in trying some of those things initially. Yeah, yeah, interesting,
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What are some other trends that maybe you're seeing either in in credit quality
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in general or again the interpretation of that data through the door population. Is
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there any Yeah? You know, I think the other thing we spent on
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quite a bit of time talking about the other day and our meeting was just
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overall client engagement through activation. And so obviously with a with a my cold
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line of credit, right we'll give a We'll give a home leutner a line
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that they can then use when it's convenient for them and when they need it.
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And so we were like, what are we seeing differences in your number
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of consumers that are taking and draw or using it initially and then long term
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utilization rates as well? And I think there was definitely that's one that everybody's
21:11
keep watching because obviously, right we you want to give the consumer access to
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a line of credit demandle to use over time, but if they don't use
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it, that is, you know, that doesn't add any value to us
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initially. So where is there that right balance? And so I think we'll
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continue to talk through that just what are we seeing and what does that look
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like based off of different credit profiles in different geographic areas and things like that.
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It's like, is there anything any you know, core trend that's happening.
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But that's one that I think we all are watching because you you definitely
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are starting to see it and we are starting to see some improvement in utilization
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rates, which then speaks to consumer demand and the interest in using those that
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open credit to then make these purchases. Okay, is there a lot of
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interaction with other committees or how I think about the CBA is a whole.
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Yeah, that's definitely an area. So each of us kind of establish some
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targets and some abjectors for the year, and that's one that we are being
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much more mindful of. The one the two that we're connecting with is fraud
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and then CRA because those are areas that are you know, fraud is just
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an area that we all need to be mindfuluff. It's real and and so
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what is what is the Fraud committee seen and how can then you know,
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we kind of work together with them and just begin all in the spirit of
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joint learning and joint sharing of information. And then the same thing on CIRA,
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right, I mean, obviously home equity can be used as a way
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to facilitate cra lending and what are they seeing, how does that work?
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New rules, all that stuff. So definitely an area we want to be
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spending a little bit more time on. Yeah, fraud I imagine is one
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that is pretty safe where everyone wants to make that as minimal as possible.
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So any insight you can share people are probably yeah. And this storically fraud
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on home equity lines of credit hasn't been a big area for us, you
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know. Now I think every institution is starting to realize both on the new
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account of origination side as well as then the existing customer when they have that
23:06
one hundred thousand dollars line of credit that's sitting out there, what are the
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tactics one of the things being done to minimize any potential fraud losses through account
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takeover things like that. So again, in few years ago, was it
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a hot time scenario that we wanted to spending more time. Interesting so that
23:22
you mentioned the committee. Obviously a great way to continue to learn are the
23:26
things I mean selfishly for me, I'm trying to put together a network of
23:30
things to learn from as well, Like are there thought leaders, publications,
23:33
things that you follow externally to kind of keep up to date on everything going
23:37
on. Yeah, that's a good question. So you know, we all
23:40
are looking at different forms of data at different ports and all that stuff.
23:45
You know. The one that I spent a lot of time on is the
23:48
New York FEDDOS setting on household debt every quarter. It's interesting, right because
23:52
it actually gives kind of a complete picture of all that It's not just about
23:55
home equity. It's about what's happening with mortgage balances, credit card balance is
23:59
autohole equity and so and then they go a little bit deeper then into some
24:03
credit profiles and some different transponencies and things like that. And so that to
24:07
me is you know, we because when the day is done right, the
24:11
home equity is a part of the consumers that want we'll call it right and
24:15
and and how does this fit in with what's happening kind of in the bigger
24:18
picture. So that's when we spent a lot of time on. And then
24:22
you know, there's there's a variety of things that come through, you know,
24:26
like through Black Night and Cure and os it other kind of industry groups
24:30
that are then providing information about what's happening in the market, what's happening kind
24:34
of in the individual segments that all of us absorbing used to help kind of
24:40
define what's happening. Okay, great, well, I guess you know.
24:42
The last opportunity for you is anything you want to plug or if folks wanted
24:47
to get involved in the CBA or on a committee, what's the path for
24:49
them to do that? Yeah, certainly right. I mean, I think
24:51
if anybody's interested in learning more about what we do, they can reach out
24:53
to me. We've got our CBA context as well that we can then put
24:56
them in contact with. But it's a great group of people. It allows
25:00
us, like I said, to interact and share and learn and hopefully when
25:03
the day is done kind of all raise the bar for everybody. Awesome.
25:07
Yeah, well, I appreciate the time, Mike. It was great to
25:08
me again, and I enjoy the rest of the shows. And that's good.
25:11
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