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Fair Pay Now Drives Engagement? A 30-Year First · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: The source is HR News Canada and Workforce
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Science Associates.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I just need to take some water because... dry mouth.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the headline is "After decades of engagement research, fair pay and basic respect
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: suddenly matter more."
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so here's some context.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Workforce Science Associates says fair pay and basic respect have emerged as
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: predictors of employment engagement for the first time in nearly three
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: decades of its workforce research.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the question is what does it say about the state of work when fair pay
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: and basic
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: respect are showing up as drivers of engagement instead of simply being
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: assumed as
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: baseline conditions of employment?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Holy sh*t, right?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my first kind of question and thought around that is... this is
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: just showing up now for the first time in thirty years?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like... did
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: people not care about being paid before?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's grain of salt, right?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like it depends.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know specifically what questions they were asking.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Were they trying to serve as this?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Were they trying to like prove a point or whatever.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: But really curious to hear what you think about that.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, state of work, fair pay and basic respect are the drivers
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: of engagement.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: what do you think about that?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: did they say the top drivers of engagement?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the number one thing for people now or something?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming that it said has Malt says have emerged as predictors of
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: employment employee engagement for the first time in nearly three decades, so
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm still I'm still stuck on... why didn't it matter before?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: and you can kind of take this one particular way where it's like, okay,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: in the past, like let's say... let's say six, seven years ago, going back twenty years.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that period of kind of the late nineties, through the aughts,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: kind of into the early teens or whatever.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: maybe pay fairness or the the suitability of pay was pretty good.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: for people who were surveyed.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it just kind of became a, this is an entitlement sort of thing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is natural.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we even talk about this?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because of course, everyone gets fair pay and, you know, all of the other stuff.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And now there's a cost of living crisis in the Western world, for sure.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people are feeling the pinch in in Southeast Asia as well.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So for the first time, wages aren't keeping pace with
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: with those increases in the cost of living.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Groceries, housing, fuel, et
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: for the middle, how did they phrase this?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was reading about this the other day.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: for the the top quartile of earners in the country, wages aren't keeping pace
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: with the increase in the cost of living.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's how they phrased it.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's new.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: You definitely have seen things where wages don't keep pace with the cost of
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: living
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: for the bottom quartile and kind of like the second quartile from the bottom of
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: earners.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: that's like a documented phenomenon that goes back quite a while, and it's why
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: progressive taxation exists to try and redistribute that wealth more fairly.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: But now, it's impacting what can only be described as like the wealthier amongst us.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's kind of driving this.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we think about who's going to be
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: targeted by this survey as well,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: who is it?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do we think that people who are earning minimum wage, washing dishes in
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: the kitchen, are going to be sent this survey?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's probably going to be some bias skew towards white-collar, professional,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: highly, more highly paid jobs in the first place.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of wonder about things like that when we hear about headlines like this.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's going on behind the scenes?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because I doubt very much
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: that it's a broad segment of society that's equally mixed is captured by
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: this survey.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I just put a note in the chat if folks...
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious if folks
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: receive annual cost of living increases.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, COLAs.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's hidden... it's been hit and miss for me throughout my entire career.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: some companies I've worked for do, others don't.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: My thoughts on this are kind of what I'm noticing with the younger
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: generations in
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: the workplace, and I talk about this a lot on my Substack Uncompliant, is that
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think people just want to go to work, do their job and then peace out and
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: go home and not have to like carry it with them or think about it.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not asking work to be all of the things for them in the way that I
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: think previous generations did.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: and so maybe it's that.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's like, yeah, I feel engaged when I get paid well and I can kind of just
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: leave work at work.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what matters more to me.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's being surfaced more by people.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure, but and I've been I've been saying this a lot because I write so
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: much
• 5:22
  about work, and we talk about work all the time and my Substack feed is all about
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: leadership and work and everything, but work is just
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: work and yes we spend so much time
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: there but like Des says right now, it's okay to be an employee and I think
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: that's what this headline tells me is that maybe that is becoming more important for
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: people that it's just work.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want it to be all of these other things.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to do my job and I just want to go home at the end of the day.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I worked at a company that required so... the cognitive load was just immense.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone was so drained.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a a close friend who would say that when, by the time she got home at
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: the
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: end of the day, she couldn't even read a book anymore, for pleasure,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: because
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: you're reading...
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: it's just so overloaded.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people who left that company
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: would say that they wanted a really
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: low mental load job where you still have to think and it's not dismissive of
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: anyone
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: who does jobs like this, but say works at a bike repair shop,
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: something that you can do with your hands more so.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can have some space in your mind to think
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: about other things, to let your mind wander, to allow space for
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: creative thoughts to pop in.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, some of those jobs are just all-consuming.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, it is okay to just be an employee and just do your work and be
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: done with it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what I
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: get from it.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Different interpretations.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't see the study.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know the questions that they asked.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know who they, you know, who they polled or anything like that.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it is interesting.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: A shout out to Dan Korus again on his podcast, The Kestrel Edge, because he had
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mark Putres on there.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Really great episode.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone should listen to that one or watch it.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then they just talked about which is something that we all know, like who's
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: doing the survey, what is the point of it?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime you see things like that, you have to question what the agenda is, what
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: the motivator is.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: because there's always a... there's always some kind of agenda behind that.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where I... this kind of thing of like, okay, let's go to work, do our
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: jobs, go home.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love Gen Z for their take on this.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: They understood the assignment.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been one of those people who was very connected to work.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very much on the the train of, okay, my employer needs loyalty.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: If I give loyalty, things will be good, my career will progress, things will get
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: better, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to invest more than all of myself in my job and in my career.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: and I learned at some point in middle age that no, that that doesn't actually
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: guarantee that you'll get what you want.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you can still be tossed on the wreckage, the dustbin, despite
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: the loyalty and that attitude and everything.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: So for the people in Gen Z who are coming into the workforce with this
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: attitude of, it's just a d*mn job, good for them.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wish that I had had that attitude twenty years ago.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Boundaries, boundaries.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is actually another short story.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: a company that I worked for not too long ago is shutting down.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there are people who have worked there for
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: like their entire careers, like from when they graduated
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: university until now and they're like in their mid-thirties or whatever.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of what you said, the... this company demanded that you give
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: everything of yourself and that you're loyal and this and that.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the moment that
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: the folks at the top were like, okay, actually we're not gonna do this
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: anymore.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone, that loyalty was for nothing.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for what?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: For what?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: I am a firm believer in not staying too long in one place because I think it really
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: limits
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: your perspective, your ability to learn and to experience different
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: types of
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: leadership and everything.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so it can be really difficult when you've been at one company.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: For a very long time to have anything...
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, not meaningful, but to be
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: able to
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: convey the work that you did and the changes that you made and everything on
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: your
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: resume and when you're applying.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's a fly flying around here for job.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: well, f*ck him.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when you're at a company for a long time, like what you did, yes, you
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: implemented like frameworks and systems and stuff.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just kind of maintain the status quo for like years and years and
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: years.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then how do you translate that?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was really good at like keeping things stable.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: and the processes that I implemented were great.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we didn't really change many of that.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's hard.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's good to to bounce around when you can.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a huge place of privilege.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: The job market is so different now.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: but I know for myself it served me very well to bounce around for a bit.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that impacts builders too, right?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: People who are wired to build things are often very different from
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: the people who are wired to maintain things.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't see people who are both builders and maintainers and are
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: fulfilled by those in the same person very often, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a builder and you build stuff and you implement processes and you
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: do all that, at some point there is nothing left to build.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you do?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's really the time where it's like, maybe it's time for us to move on, find
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: something else.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: But as you say, the job market is total garbage.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a daunting prospect right now.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I know so many talented people right now...
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: like I mentioned, that company just shut down.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So many talented people right now that are on the market.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this was actually the company that I wrote about in that last Uncompliant piece
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: about the person you become in a toxic environment.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So and I mentioned these are brilliant people that did really, like, niche kind
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: of work.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they're all gonna be on the market.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I know someone who I love dearly who has been on the market for a job for
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: eight months now, who I know could crush it at anything.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: It is so challenging out there.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, yeah, I think I count my blessings every single day that I am
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: employed
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: and I have a job and I feel safe, but I also understand that I could lose that.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: at any moment and the idea of going out into this job market right now is truly
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: terrifying to me.