Latest / Age Like a Badass Mother / Ep. 115: Health Misinformation: The Hidden Agendas Behind What We’ve Been Told About Food & Disease with Nelson Campbell

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Ep. 115: Health Misinformation: The Hidden Agendas Behind What We’ve Been Told About Food & Disease with Nelson Campbell · Age Like a Badass Mother

• 0:00
  Hi, friend. Today I'm talking with Nelson Campbell,
• 0:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: The Hidden Agendas Behind Decades of Health Misinformation and What to Do About Research has proven that a plant-based diet can prevent and sometimes reverse chronic diseases like heart disease, type 2 diabetes, or cancer. Yet this message has been ignored, distorted, or suppressed by gatekeepers and organizations with a vested interest in the status quo.
• 0:30
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Be sure and stay until the end of our conversation because Nelson challenges of the rules of plant-based eating, including what he says about nuts, seeds, avocado, and fat, and explains why he believes the movement needs to rethink its message. But first, you know that I wouldn't have a sponsor for the podcast unless it was something that I use and love.
• 0:52
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• 0:56
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• 0:59
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• 1:10
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• 1:16
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• 1:25
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And now Here's Nelson Campbell.
• 1:40
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: If I had to distill the life work of Nelson Campbell and his father, Dr. T. Colin Campbell, it would be proof that the food on your plate is one of the biggest determinants of your health.
• 1:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Nelson Campbell wrote and directed the acclaimed 2015 documentary film Plant Pure Nation, now streaming on Amazon Prime and Apple TV, which highlights the dramatic healing power of a plant-based diet.
• 2:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: His most recent media production is a second documentary titled From Food to Freedom, which demonstrates the power of nutrition to rapidly heal people with type 2 diabetes.
• 2:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Most recently, Nelson has launched a Substack publication at Nelsoncampbell.com where he writes about many of the same issues shared in the book The Whole Truth, which he authored with his father, Dr. T. Colin Campbell. Please welcome Nelson Campbell.
• 2:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Welcome.
• 2:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Well, thank you, Lauren. It's good to be here.
• 2:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I look forward to talking Good to with you.
• 2:38
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: same, same. I loved this book.
• 2:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I've been fascinated. Even before I f I found my way to a whole food plant based diet, I was very, very fascinated with, you know, GMOs, big ag the effect of pharma on people.
• 2:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So this has been I've been eating a whole food plant-based diet.
• 2:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I reversed my heart disease ~ by doing that.
• 3:02
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I So that's going on eleven years, but this has been a fascination that I I've probably had for ~ maybe fifteen And this book is really about your dad kind of just being a whistleblower, right?
• 3:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It is. ~ there's there's And other things, which is yeah, there's three parts to it.
• 3:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: The first part ~ is kind of a succinct summary of his life and ~ how he grew up and then ~ leading into his research career and and the findings that he ~ that he that he achieved during that during that time.
• 3:36
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ it also discusses his view on biological holism, which ~ is a very important idea.
• 3:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so by the time you get done with that section, then you're ready for section two,~ which are stories ~ from his life,~ showing how this message has been suppressed at high levels over the years.
• 3:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so you kind of understand what he understood ~ because of what you learn in part one as you go into those stories, which makes them even more aggravating.
• 4:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then when you get to the to the end of section two,~ you're definitely I think feeling ~ well more informed, more educated, but also maybe more aggravated.
• 4:22
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so in part three, ~ that's the part where I pick it up and talk about our plant-based movement and offer some ideas for how I think we could be more successful. And so by the time you get to the end of the book, hopefully you're feeling feeling a little more hopeful.
• 4:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: yeah.
• 4:42
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, I I definitely want to dive into that part too.
• 4:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But ~ I think for I feel like most of the people who listen to this podcast are familiar with your father's work with the China study.
• 4:54
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But could you just like give us a brief synopsis of that, an overview of that, the findings of that?
• 5:01
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah. So that came on the heels of a pretty long history of laboratory research that he had done many of those years at Virginia Tech, but also at Cornell University.
• 5:14
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And ~ that research was focused on the various mechanisms that are involved in the cancer process and how diet can affect those mechanisms.
• 5:27
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And every time he looked at a mechanism, it always pointed in the same direction, namely that a high animal protein diet pushed it forward, pushed the cancer process forward from the initiation phase through the promotion phase. And so by the time he got to the end of that, he kind of established the biological plausibility behind the idea that a high animal protein diet Can ~ cause and you know push forward the cancer process, maybe other chronic conditions.
• 5:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so then the next question he had is, well, do we see this in a human population?
• 6:03
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so he had an opportunity to do a massive study in China, and I say massive because of the the breadth of the study design.
• 6:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: He looked at hundreds of variables ~ in the blood.
• 6:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: questionnaire information, ~ various kinds of information, and ~ and then you know ran a lot of correlations looking at the you know correlating those factors to various disease outcomes and what he found is that the diseases in China at that time tended to fall into two ~ positively correlated categories so the diseases in each category positive positively correlated with the other diseases in that category.
• 6:53
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And he called these diseases of poverty and diseases of affluence.
• 6:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: The diseases of affluence are the diseases that we see in Western societies.
• 7:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We see here in the United States and you know other developed areas.
• 7:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And course now we see a lot of these in China as well.
• 7:11
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So when he did the study in China, it was very different than it is today.
• 7:16
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: but but the diseases of affluence are the cancers and the you know diabetes, those various chronic conditions.
• 7:22
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: The diseases of poverty were infectious diseases, parasitic diseases, those kinds of things that that happen when you lack access to clean water ~ or health care, you know, those kinds of things.
• 7:36
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: and then~ he found so those diseases tend to c cluster together, diseases of poverty, disease of affluence in the same areas.
• 7:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ diseases of poverty were more in the inland rural areas, diseases of diseases of affluence were more in the more developed, oftentimes coastal areas. ~ And what he found is that there were two biomarkers that ~ pretty strongly correlated with the k with the diseases of affluence, those being plasma urea nitrogen and and and and and cholesterol and those are very much reflecting an animal based diet so urea nitrogen is ~ rises when you eat~ animal-based foods and that's how you can tell actually what people are eating to some degree and ~ cholesterol does as well so So through that correlation he was able to see that and and other sources, you know, to see that animal based diet associated with those diseases of Yeah, and you know, you said that he had ~ that this was a huge study and it was, and that he was able to turn on and off cancer genes by increasing and decreasing the amounts of animal protein.
• 9:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ but I I thought that later in his career he had this ~ opportunity to expand the China study, right? And to study a half a million people throughout their whole life.
• 9:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And this ~ this was f a approved study and it never got funded. Can you talk about that?
• 9:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Do you Yeah, so ~ actually we we talk about this in the programs that we run here at our location in Saluda when people come visit us for for a week.
• 9:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ this was a monumental study idea.
• 9:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ it would have been ~ the greatest ~ probably the greatest health research study ever done. And ~ I almost need a piece of paper and a graph to display this properly, but let me try to explain it in words.
• 10:02
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So so what he wanted to do is he wanted to,~ again going back to China, he wanted to study a population of about a half million people.
• 10:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then collect ~ blood and urine samples~ periodically over time.
• 10:18
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So maybe once a year, twice a year, but periodically collecting these blood and urine samples and then putting them cold storage, you know, nitrogen freezers.
• 10:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So they're frozen, they're preserved.
• 10:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then the idea was to follow these people, and when someone died of something.
• 10:40
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ you know, typically you're diagnosed with something and then and then and then you die. ~ those samples then would be pulled, the samples that had been collected on that person preceding that event would been pulled.
• 10:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And hundreds of biomarkers ~ in the blood and urine would have been analyzed.
• 11:03
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Okay, analyzed at each time point leading up to diagnosis and then death. Okay, so so at every time point then it would it would have been possible to have determined a biochemical fingerprint.
• 11:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Reflecting that disease process at that time point.
• 11:25
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, cancer doesn't just happen ~ when you're diagnosed.
• 11:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Cancer is growing years prior.
• 11:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: There's an underlying disease process.
• 11:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Diagnosis tends to happen toward the end.
• 11:37
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And you for a lot of chronic conditions.
• 11:40
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so he what he was attempting to do was to, you know, at each time point to find that subset of biomarkers.
• 11:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: That would be most reflective of the disease process at that point in time.
• 11:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Does that make sense?
• 11:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah.
• 11:57
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so really a biochemical fingerprint, and and that would have been like a Star Trek, you know, kind of technology, because you know, you could then take blood and urine samples from people way before anything's diagnosed to say, hey, we we have the fingerprint of this evolving disease process.
• 12:18
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You need to take action. And of course, my my dad's research had shown that we can reverse chronic and many chronic conditions through food.
• 12:28
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So we can tell people you need to take action to reverse this process before it gets out of hand. And so yeah, Yeah, and ~ yeah.
• 12:38
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: it it would have bit the breadth of this study would have been incredible, but it was ~ thwarted because they got an anonymous letter, right, saying the China study was fraudulent.
• 12:51
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: They would have exp your dad probably would have exposed that pharma kind of drives our medical system. Is that I mean, how do you explain that?
• 12:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yes, this this would have been yeah, this research would have been the greatest threat ever to the pharma the whole pharma paradigm. Because you can imagine that okay, you've got patients who are trending a certain way, you give them a whole food plant-based diet, and you can see how the biochemical fingerprints changing and how it's moving backward in time.
• 13:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Now it's reversing, right?
• 13:23
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah.
• 13:24
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So so so it would have validated the co the idea of food's medicine better than anything we could have ever done.
• 13:30
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: He had gotten a funding commitment for that from the government and ~ and IH.
• 13:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so he went down to Washington to get the initial check.
• 13:42
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And when he got there, and this is in the book, The Whole Truth, when he got there, There was an anonymous letter, it wasn't signed by anyone. They had come in through another institute of NIH that I believe wasn't directly involved in this, but they presented the letter and the letter saying that the China study was fraudulent, that basically my father was a fraud.
• 14:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so the study was the funding was put on hold.
• 14:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: He didn't get his check.
• 14:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then he went back and he never got the check.
• 14:18
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So he never he he never got the funding.
• 14:22
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and this underscores something very serious within our system that people need to understand, and that is you know what what are the public resources funding?
• 14:34
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, what research is getting support.
• 14:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I I have a brother who's been trying to do some research looking at the effects of a plant based diet on breast cancer patients.
• 14:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And finally he has gotten some funding,~ I'm happy to report, but it's been Wow.
• 14:53
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: it's been a torturous process, very difficult. You know, he was rejected initially, but it's just been it's been a difficult process and he's persevered. But yeah, what those public dollars support is is really important because~ research like what my father envisioned~ you know doesn't get the support.
• 15:16
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's typically drugs, drug interventions that get the support.
• 15:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Mm-hmm.
• 15:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I don't know that people really realize when I when I yeah, like I said, I've been obsessed with this for a long time ever since I found out about it. But I don't think that people might might not know the revolving door from big ag and pharma companies to working at the FDA and the USDA. And I don't know that people understand that the FDA doesn't test the drugs or anything like that.
• 15:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's incumbent on the Companies who are seeking drug approval to show that it's safe, which just seems crazy to me. Is that nuts?
• 15:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, yeah, there there there is a revolving door.
• 15:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: in fact there was a really good movie on this,~ what's it called? Painkillers or something, on the Purdue Purdue Pharma story about how they promoted the opioids.
• 16:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: yes, yes.
• 16:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Right. And they they they went out strategically to try to figure out how to how to get really how to get people hooked on that.
• 16:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And it That's right.
• 16:18
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: was really disgusting and they they bought off, you know, the I I won't ruin the storyline, but go watch that film if you want to see how the revolving door works. ~ so there so that does take place within government a lot. ~ but there's also just the power of the paradigm.
• 16:37
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, we my dad talks a lot about this.
• 16:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ we live within paradigms and~ these are just simply ways of thinking that we inherit from the past, right? So they're they're ways of thinking that that have you know that we've assumed from the past, and and oftentimes we don't stop to think, hey, are are these ways of thinking correct?
• 17:07
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, are they leading us to the truth?
• 17:09
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We just accept them. And And so we live within ~ a health paradigm that has been part of our modern age for quite some time now.
• 17:22
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and that paradigm tends to see the body as a machine, you know, with pulleys and levers and various mechanisms.
• 17:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And if we can just understand those mechanisms, you know, we can we can develop a chemical that impacts, you know, one of those key mechanisms, and then we can influence this whole process.
• 17:43
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: within the body and and future generations will look back on that as we look back at the doctors who bled George Washington to death when he had a flu or something.
• 17:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ you Mm-hmm.
• 17:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: know, we we look back on those things as barbaric, but People are gonna look back at the way we see biology today as barbaric because, and my dad talks about now we're getting into his ideas of biological holism.
• 18:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It is so it's complex beyond our ability to comprehend.
• 18:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and and whenever people pick out you know little isolated things from the whole and talk about it, you know, like like they're an expert on that, and if we just do this, that, and the other, you know, we're gonna control our health, that's nonsensical. It's what I call tinkered toy biology.
• 18:27
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so a lot of these people in Washington,~ getting back to that, are living within this pharma paradigm, which is basically what I just described.
• 18:37
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and they don't even know it.
• 18:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: They just accept it as true. So Yeah. Yes, that's y your dad talks about in in the book the whole truth.
• 18:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: He talks about wholism versus reductionism.
• 18:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I I that's what you're talking about now.
• 18:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Like the body as a whole, like that can just repair itself if it's given what it's needed and fuel by way of whole food plant based eating versus taking a pill for just reducing a certain symptom.
• 19:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Is is that what you mean? Just like Pharma is Yeah.
• 19:11
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: just for a for ones to treat a symptom.
• 19:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, I mean and they're again they're trying to target one little piece of the system and hit it with the chemical.
• 19:22
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And think that they can therefore control this whole process.
• 19:24
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ there's so much complexity. So e even you know, within the food that we eat, there's far more complexity than people understand.
• 19:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: There are thousands of compounds in every bite of food and and and more phytochemicals than we than we know ~ than we've ever studied.
• 19:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ we talk about vitamins as if they're singular things, but oftentimes they come in families of of related.
• 19:51
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ compounds, and and then they're surrounded by a bundle of phytochemicals and minerals and all kinds of other things in the food that all work together synergistically, right? So there's complexity within the food that's beyond comprehension.
• 20:09
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Then it goes into the body, and the way the body processes that is complex beyond comprehension.
• 20:16
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We we don't even really understand.
• 20:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: How one of the simplest biological units works, which is the enzyme. The enzyme, and there's trillions of these in our body, the enzyme is this long protein molecule that's folded in around itself.
• 20:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's a very long, complex molecule, and it turns chemical A into chemical B.
• 20:36
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, it catalyzes that catalyst, it converts that chemical.
• 20:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so when it's not doing anything, it's just kind of sitting there.
• 20:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Some people think it loses its conformation and shape.
• 20:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then when chemical A drifts by, it assumes a precise geometry, a precise shape that's required to do its job.
• 20:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then it converts that to chemical A to chemical B.
• 20:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We we don't really even understand how that happens.
• 21:01
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And there's so many enzymes in every cell.
• 21:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Every cell is a universe into itself, and there's trillions of cells.
• 21:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And there are very these various macro systems in the body, you know, that are setting the pH levels at various points and hormonal and you know all kinds of things.
• 21:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And there's communication at every point in time, instantaneous, you know, between all of that.
• 21:26
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so it's just it's so it's so complex, it's just it's almost mysterious.
• 21:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But it works.
• 21:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah. It does work. Tell us that you know, that's a good ~ jumping off point to some of the things that you've Plant plant purination and from ~ food to freedom.
• 21:46
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Can you can you talk about some of the things that you've personally seen by switching people to a whole food plant based diet?
• 21:54
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Sure. So we started down this path a long time ago.
• 21:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I decided ~ back around 2006 or seven that I would you know commit maybe the rest of my career to helping get this health message out.
• 22:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I had some entrepreneurial experience before that, so I thought I had some skills that might be useful.
• 22:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so the first thing I did is I started thinking about how do we how do we persuade people to change?
• 22:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, how do we educate them and how do we pr how do we motivate people to make a lifestyle change like this?
• 22:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I started looking at different approaches and I I came up with this idea of an immersion process, which I described at that time as a jump start.
• 22:37
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And basically, what we do is we provide some education to kind of turn on the light bulb and get people open to this and to motivate them then to go through a ~ maybe it's seven days or ten days of living on a plant-based diet.
• 22:54
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and we can design in other touch points along the way, you know, so they get ongoing support.
• 23:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: but then but then what we do as part of that is we encourage people to get their biometric tests done pre and post.
• 23:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ and it's typically a lipid panel, maybe fast in glucose. And so we developed this concept.
• 23:14
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We worked really hard on a meal plan and and we we rented a kitchen to produce the food. And at that time there weren't a lot of plant-based meals available, so we had to kind of do a lot of this from scratch.
• 23:26
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so we put that program together and we and maybe it was 2011 or so, we did our first jump start.
• 23:34
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: with the group of people and I I I myself was blown away by the results.
• 23:40
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It was it one of those rare instances that exceeded what you had what you had hoped for.
• 23:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ big cholesterol drops of twenty, twenty-five percent, people getting off their medications, and ~ it it was it was amazing.
• 23:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so we did some more. And and that eventually led to the opportunity for my first film, Plant Pure Nation.
• 24:01
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But we've we've done these programs periodically ~ over the years.
• 24:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and always had the same results.
• 24:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It just there's very little variance.
• 24:12
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: People go through this and they get similar results.
• 24:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: it's really amazing.
• 24:18
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I've seen you know various disease conditions begin to reverse within even ten days. And we showed that in our second film from Food to Freedom, with people who who had type two diabetes and were taking insulin.
• 24:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, I you know, I had seen ~ Plant Purination years ago when it came out and I went back and rewatched it and I was like, God, this is just incredible. And even I think I can't remember if it was in which documentary it was in, where the the person who conducted the biometric testing said, I've never seen anything like this before.
• 24:53
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Was that in the first one or the second the f plant purination?
• 24:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, it was Plant Pure Nation.
• 24:57
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So yeah, it was the CEO of a company that did biometric testing across the nation.
• 25:03
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So they were a national testing company.
• 25:06
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I had kind of recruited him to come participate in that part of the film.
• 25:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so we had all the results, and we were using their service to do the testing.
• 25:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so he came and he he read through all the paperwork and he couldn't believe what he saw, which is why he made that statement in the film.
• 25:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Did he did he start eating whole food plant based?
• 25:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yes.
• 25:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: He did.
• 25:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yes. ~ I haven't talked to him in in quite a while, Okay, that's crazy.
• 25:38
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: but ~ but last I remember he was ~ plant based.
• 25:43
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Okay, that's incredible. That he saw all these results and he was like, you know what? Let me give this a shot.
• 25:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Can I?
• 25:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It works. That's incredible. Yeah.
• 25:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then I guess the the second one from food to freedom was all people who had type two diabetes. And I think one of the drivers was that~ forty percent of the people who died from COVID had type two diabetes.
• 26:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Is that correct? Is that a correct statement?
• 26:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's something like that. Yeah, Something like that.
• 26:11
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: it was something like that.
• 26:12
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and ~ early and and we mentioned this in the film, early in the pandemic when there was a big wave of of deaths, hospitalizations and deaths in Italy.
• 26:24
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ after that, ~ shortly after that, the Italian government commissioned a study ~ and they found that over percent of the people who were having those worst outcomes ~ Had pre-existing chronic conditions like type 2 diabetes and other chronic conditions, conditions that are related to lifestyle and especially food.
• 26:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And of course, during the pandemic, you know, that that information, that connection wasn't shared with the public, you know, by our public health authorities, Mm.
• 27:02
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: which we also note in our film.
• 27:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah. And it it's it's maddening to say the least, because, you know, to recommend eating fruits and vegetables is ~ you know, the least of what they could do.
• 27:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But, you know, I guess it goes back to ~ what we were just talking about before with the government and y another study that I remember reading in the book, it there was ~ I think it's the Commonwealth Fund and it's like a a policy think tank.
• 27:34
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And these scientists had the healthcare statistics from ten high income countries, and they found that Americans die the youngest and live the sickest, despite the US spending the most on healthcare.
• 27:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And you know, I I think that that's the overarching theme.
• 27:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And what you guys have tried to do it with your life, life's work, is to say this doesn't happen.
• 28:01
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It has to happen. We could be eating.
• 28:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: plants and reversing a lot of this.
• 28:06
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So I you know, I know that ~ one of the playbooks plays is that the tobacco industry has found its way into our food industry.
• 28:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ can you talk a little bit about that?
• 28:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Because I think that that's one of the big reasons that people are so sick.
• 28:25
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Do you?
• 28:26
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Well there are companies I guess that were in the tobacco industry that have expanded and now have a big presence in the food industry, but it's the mentality that that I think you're really referring to here,~ the approach, the strategy, which is to design food products that are addictive to people. You know, with with ~ things that tantalize our taste buds.
• 28:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: that want you know make us want want to come back for more but that aren't good for us. So so we're really talking now about all the processed foods.
• 28:57
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Right. Processed foods.
• 28:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: process so there are really two big villains in our our our food supply.
• 29:03
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: One is processed foods and and and the other is animal, you know, animal-based products.
• 29:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But yeah, no, Yeah.
• 29:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: there are people there are people who go to work ~ every day, sad to say, and They know that they're using science to create food products that are unhealthy but addictive.
• 29:28
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And Mm-hmm.
• 29:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: which which goes to another question, which is you know, why why are so many people in our system, our society, willing to to do work like that?
• 29:42
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, I I understand if someone is maybe ignorant of the effects of what they're doing.
• 29:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ someone maybe who just at that moment for whatever reason they can't make a change or they can't afford to what I you know I I I don't want to be judgmental because there are a lot of reasons that that we participate in immoral systems.
• 30:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But I I think though that we need to We need to do a better job of aligning our work with, you know, basic human morals, you know, of compassion and justice and decency and fairness.
• 30:26
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And ~ I don't know, this is the thing that's hardest for me, is just looking out at the world.
• 30:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, we often we always talk about the system, right? It's always the fault of the system.
• 30:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But the system is just an aggregation of people who are making decisions to do things. And I think it's time in our world for people to start asking hard questions. You know, who am I?
• 30:51
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Why am I here? What am I doing?
• 30:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Why am I doing this? What should I be doing?
• 30:57
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And that's a deeper topic, but No, it's it is a deeper topic, but I think you're absolutely right because Mm.
• 31:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I think that the system as we're talking about has failed us.
• 31:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And you know, the suppression of all this information is maddening.
• 31:16
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ but I I know that, you know, we don't wanna leave it like that.
• 31:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I know that definitely, you know, you were you wrote your part of the book to bring us some hope and hopefulness.
• 31:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But I mean, yeah, the system is broken.
• 31:34
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Obviously, we can see that. That, you know, cancer rates are skyrocketing, heart disease is skyrocketing.
• 31:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I know that colorectal cancer is growing just, you know, with younger people.
• 31:43
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I went on their website to see what they recommend.
• 31:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: They do recommend limiting ~ red meat to eighteen ounces a week and they say eat more fiber and less processed foods.
• 31:54
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So at least that was a little bit hopeful.
• 31:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ you know, that at least they said something.
• 31:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But like We'll move on from this. I I know I'm just it it makes me crazy, and we'll move on from this. But like one last example was that ~ I think I read this in the book, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, their welcome bag was sponsored by Glaxo Smith Klein Drug Company,~ Pepsi, National Dairy Council, Coca-Cola, Danin, Nestle, Mars, and Aramark, which is a service provider of school lunches.
• 32:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: If that doesn't get your attention, that that's the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, that's who sponsored the welcome bag, drugs and junk food. I mean, you have to have this grasp that something is not right. Something is not right.
• 32:44
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: That we, you know, eat this terrible diet, we get sick, we take a pill. It seems like it's so malevolent, but it it is. It's not, it's just not right.
• 32:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And that, ~ You know, ~ t g give us the hopeful part.
• 33:01
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Like what what's the what's the good news, Nelson?
• 33:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Well a few things. ~ first of all, and and before I go in into this direction, I want to acknowledge ~ all of the people in our space who've been fighting this good fight and ~ you know all these influencers, voices, physicians, dietitians, advocates, ~ There's so many good people trying so hard.
• 33:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I I have to say that because, you know, I in in my section of the book I I am critical, I think, of the strategies that we've sometimes pursued in our movement.
• 33:44
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: but I don't think it's because necessarily that people somehow or another weren't well intentioned or aren't well intentioned.
• 33:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ so I wanna be very respectful.
• 33:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I agree with that, a hundred percent.
• 33:57
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah.
• 33:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But I I do think sometimes if you stand back and take stock and you sort of are take a humble self critical approach, that's actually the fastest way to hope.
• 34:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Because you can a lot of people don't understand this.
• 34:12
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: They're afraid, they're afraid to to look in the mirror, to be self-reflective, to say, hey, you know, what what did I do wrong before?
• 34:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: What can I do better now? But the willingness and humility to do that is actually a pathway to hope because the truth of the matter is is we can do a much better job.
• 34:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Mm-hmm.
• 34:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ I think that our messaging has not resonated with the mainstream for reasons I discuss in the book and for for reasons actually that are not not rooted in science also. I think also d in addition to that, our messaging has oftentimes been confusing to people.
• 34:53
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And it's because Too often we've bought into this kind of tinker toy view of biology ~ as well.
• 35:02
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, it's it's the dominant paradigm of our modern healthcare system, but strangely enough, we've brought that paradigm, that way of thinking into our own community in ways that cause confusion.
• 35:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so I just The whole food plant based community.
• 35:18
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, and Yes.
• 35:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: so I talk about these points in the book about how we can better message our idea in a way that resonates with people.
• 35:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: To me, that's a very hopeful idea because I think we could do a far better job.
• 35:34
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ I also think as well that we can make a a deeper and broader message that brings people together in ~ in a unified way who are currently working in disparate ways and different directions.
• 35:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And you know, I talk about that it's really about more than health, it's about Well, for one thing, social inequities, there there are a lot of populations around who really are suffering more than any other ~ this chronic disease epidemic and who who lack access to information, healthy foods and you know we need to extend our health message into those communities.
• 36:16
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So there are a lot of people who have concerns about those communities, who advocate for those communities, who, if they understand this health message, you know, we can bring them into our tent.
• 36:26
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ there are the of course the ethical vegans, you know. I have become myself over my life, I have become far more sensitive to the rights of animals.
• 36:44
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: and I'm at a point now where I this of this is deeply important to me.
• 36:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, what we we will never solve the existential problems that we have as a species, as as humans, you know, within our own civilization, if if we can't show compassion as well to to I mean I don't ~ Yeah, w we we we need to we need to think about those things and talk about those things. We we also I think need to talk about the environmental implications, which we sometimes do, but I think we could do a better job of reaching out to that community. And I think if we If we make these bigger arguments and we root them in an argument for a more compassionate world, you know, we're really advocating for a more compassionate, connected world. Compassion is at the root of all of this, right? It's at the root of the health message, the root of this idea of extending this to the people most in need.
• 37:42
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's at the Yeah.
• 37:43
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: root of ~ compassion. It's the the animal issue, the environmental issue. It's really an argument for compassion.
• 37:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I think if we do that, we can I agree with that.
• 37:53
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: we can pull people together. But we also can appeal to young people.
• 37:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: There's Mm-hmm.
• 38:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: no movement in history that's ever succeeded without the energy of youth.
• 38:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: There's two things, the energy and the idealism of youth.
• 38:09
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, as we get older, we tend to lose some of that.
• 38:12
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And Yeah.
• 38:14
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: the baby boom generation will never drive this movement alone.
• 38:18
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It has to it has to include young people.
• 38:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I agree with that. I and I wanna go back and touch on all of those things, but when you said young people, it kind of just reminds me because when you open your part of the book, you're talking about as a young person seeing your dad make these discoveries and you thought he was gonna get the Nobel Prize for for his discoveries.
• 38:40
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Can you can you tell us about that when you were a little kid?
• 38:43
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, so you know, we weren't raised this way 'cause as we tell in the book, my father thought animal protein was the king of all nutrients and he grew up on a farm and so we we for many years growing up he we had you know, we grew up in the country and ~ I thought I lived on a farm and didn't realize till later that hey, it's not really a farm. Yeah, we had we had some horses and some things, but but he always had me out there building fences and building barns and cutting wood and mowing the fields and all all of this.
• 39:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: and so we lived that way and part of that life was eating, you know, a typical American diet and fighting for the last hot dog at the dinner table with all with my brothers.
• 39:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and and and strangely enough, Lauren, my dream because I loved horses, I just loved them. My my dream was to move out west and become a cattle ranching f cowboy. Isn't that weird?
• 39:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Wow. I mean the whole the the Campbell family, And so Yeah.
• 39:54
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: you know?
• 39:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so so so but then but then my dad started doing the he started, you know, finding out this information and By my mid to late teens, you know, we were becoming more convinced of these ideas.
• 40:09
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So then my dream switched. I wanted to become a produce farmer.
• 40:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah.
• 40:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: produce farmer. But ~ I remember, yeah, when he was making these discoveries, you know, we never really resisted it or rebelled against it.
• 40:26
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We had a great deal of respect from my father.
• 40:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I was just amazed. I was amazed.
• 40:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I thought, I remember he came home one night and he said he was so excited.
• 40:36
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, he was sharing his research about how he had shown that he could turn the cancer process off and on by toggling between plant and animal protein.
• 40:43
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: He was so excited. And I remember thinking to myself, man, in a few years he's gonna win the Nobel Prize, and the whole world will know this and be eating this way.
• 40:54
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And that was Almost four decades ago or more.
• 41:02
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's I isn't that just wild. And you know, the I love that your dad was so open that he's like,~ you know, I I know he came from dairy farmers, just like Dr. Esselston's family, dairy farmers, but yet he was open to this idea that maybe we're doing it wrong.
• 41:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And, you know, I just love that he has spent his career trying to bring this or bringing this information because the China Studies sold millions of books and is that Millions?
• 41:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Mm-hmm.
• 41:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah. And so he has brought this forward.
• 41:36
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ and this is the thing.
• 41:40
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I took ~ your father's ~ course.
• 41:42
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I got a certificate in plant based nutrition from the T.
• 41:46
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Colin Campbell Center for Nutrition Studies.
• 41:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And the thing I I learned so much, but the thing that really stood out to me is that I remember learning~ human breast milk gets contains roughly seven percent of the calories from protein.
• 42:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And we are now in this phase where and that you can't argue with that, right? With human breast milk, no matter what you believe, you know that that breast milk is made to make a baby grow. And it only contains seven percent roughly of the calories from protein. And we are being~ convinced now that, you know, you have to have upwards of whatever, fifteen to thirty-five percent of your calories from protein.
• 42:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It just blows my mind, all the misinformation out there.
• 42:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: What do you think about the~ it's yeah, it's especially bad today. ~ the last two or three years it's really taken a turn for the worse and ~ you know the whole paleo carnivore trend is kind of taking over and you know the whole the idea of supplements and peptides and all these crazy ideas.
• 42:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Back to that's back to reductionism, right?
• 43:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah.
• 43:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Back to reductionism again and you know the the emphasizing meat again in our guidelines.
• 43:06
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's just Mm-hmm.
• 43:07
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: yeah, we're gonna but but you know what it the pendulum's gonna swing back.
• 43:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You you know there's a guy in my first film, Tom Reiner, the legislator, he said Yes.
• 43:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: the truth is a stubborn thing, it doesn't go away. Well this truth ain't gonna go away.
• 43:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's it's it's That's right.
• 43:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: it's here for the for the long haul and eventually it's gonna win out.
• 43:25
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah.
• 43:26
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It so I you know that that kind of brings me to you talked about the whole food plant based message.
• 43:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I feel like I've also been guilty in this.
• 43:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Like I think our message was too confusing, too conflicting, like we had too many, like, you know, don't eat ~ salt or sugar or oil.
• 43:51
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I still kind of stand by the oil, but I think that ~ I I've been guilty of it too, like be trying to teach people to do it too too stringently. What what could we why what could we be doing better in our messaging? Do you think that we just So so so yeah so so first of all I just want to say something, Lauren, that you are an example of what does give me hope ~ and why I think that over time people will begin to coalesce around a different approach because you just said something.
• 44:22
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You said I used to say such and such, but now I'm seeing as something a little over here.
• 44:28
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and that's exactly why I said I wanted to be respectful.
• 44:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's because of people like you who've been out there fighting the good fight.
• 44:36
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I just hope everyone can think the way that you just shared.
• 44:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ you know, which Thank you.
• 44:42
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: is which is how can we do it better, right? ~ and and those points that you raise are very important.
• 44:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And you know what I oftentimes say is When we fixate on pieces of the meal that are biologically inconsequential, we are we are you we are re that's a form of productionism.
• 45:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Is it?
• 45:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Right.
• 45:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's no different than fixating on a pill or a a pharmaceutical.
• 45:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So you have a plate of brown rice and a beautiful stir fry and all these colors, and you want to put little sauce on top that's got some flavor.
• 45:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: The flavor is inc biologically inconsequential, but it helps you to eat the food and And and we could never sell this message to the mainstream if we can't provide good tasting food. Now we can encourage people to cut back on salt and sugar because those taste preferences change.
• 45:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You don't need as much of that over time.
• 45:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But that's a very different question than saying you have to eliminate every last crystal, which is absurd. There's no science That's right. ~ behind it.
• 45:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: There's no science behind it and ~ and and there's other things that we do, like ~ the whole you know, nut seed, avocado, the coconut, you know, the the these ideas, it's not a based on a valid understanding of the biology.
• 46:03
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: whole fats are very different from refined oils, which are not good.
• 46:10
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And you know, as far as the coconut goes, the quote saturated fat and that's in that is very different from the long chain saturated fats that are in animal products.
• 46:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And it comes in a different package and it has no harmful effects.
• 46:24
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: People just want to reduce the idea of saturated fat down to one bill and one thing as well. Coconut's actually a very healthy food, as is avocado, but you need fat in your diet the same as you need protein.
• 46:38
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You you need it. It's Consuming a plant-based diet without fat is actually dangerous.
• 46:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Mm.
• 46:46
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Fat ha the whole fats have anti-cancer properties,~ antioxidants you can't get any place else.
• 46:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And here's the big thing, you can't properly absorb fat soluble nutrients if you don't have fat in your diet.
• 47:01
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So it's kinda like having a Ferrari, right? But you don't have the key.
• 47:06
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Well it's set in your driveway.
• 47:09
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I wouldn't I by the way, I wouldn't buy a Ferrari because it's a destructive environment.
• 47:16
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Just an example. but yeah, so we've we've Yeah.
• 47:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: caused a lot of confusion.
• 47:23
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I agree. And like I said, I've been part of it.
• 47:25
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and I've really reversed how I eat a lot as well.
• 47:30
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Cause I used to eat very, very, very low fat ~ to reverse heart disease.
• 47:36
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And I've I've like I said, I've been doing this eleven years and the truth of the matter is I said to myself, I can't stick to this way of eating if I don't have like a lovely nut.
• 47:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: salad dressing to eat all of those beautiful greens.
• 47:53
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Like I can't get that down. I call it the spoonful of sugar.
• 47:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: That helps the medicine go down.
• 47:57
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and by and by And like you said, you need it.
• 48:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: you need it because then now you're absorbing all those nutrients.
• 48:03
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But but also and I challenge anyone watching this podcast to do a deep dive and you know use ~ I guess we're all using AI these days, but look at ~ research on nuts as it pertains to heart health, nut seeds, whole fats. those foods are heart healthy.
• 48:22
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So you, you know, Mm-hmm.
• 48:23
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: they that that's what those studies are showing.
• 48:25
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: and there are even studies now to show that they can even help in weight loss because they produce satiety.
• 48:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So so for myself, ~ every morning I have a a big bowl of fruit, all kinds of fruit, you know, just whatever we get that's in season, I chop it up and I fill up my My bowl with that's my fruit servings.
• 48:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ but I put a handful of nuts and seeds on it because if I do, I'm set till lunch. But if I just had the fruit at 10 o'clock, I'd be looking for something else to eat.
• 49:02
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So, Yeah.
• 49:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: you know, even even that idea has somewhat been misplaced.
• 49:07
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: The idea being that nut seeds are gonna make you fat, that's not true.
• 49:12
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yes, I agree. Like I said, I've been guilty of it and I've I've come around.
• 49:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: what we you also talked about animals a little bit and I I told you ~ I interviewed you a long time ago for plant plant based nutrition support group, And in that I remember you talking about it's something I've never forgotten.
• 49:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ about the pigs. ~ do you wanna tell me about do you wanna tell us about it was how they had to kill them in mass and what happened?
• 49:42
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I don't know if if you even remember that.
• 49:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, I don't remember that specific comment.
• 49:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ gosh. It was I I think it was gassing them.
• 49:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ but I know that I know that yeah, you know, we torture them their entire lives.
• 49:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, the farm animals are tortured in all kinds of hideous ways.
• 50:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And then we kill them as well, which is hideous and s and you know, and and we we act as if they don't that they're unaware.
• 50:12
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Right.
• 50:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: that they don't feel fear, you know, that they're not terrified. And and we we we have a dog now,~ Molly, we've had a a a lot of dogs over the years, but she is so affectionate and sits on the couch and you know rubs her head head against us and she remembers things. You know, she'll take she'll take a bone and put it in the far side of the house one day and then a day or two later, she wants her bone. She knows exactly where she left it, you know, two or three days ago.
• 50:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: She is she's very aware. She's even tuned in when, you know, we're we're a little off.
• 50:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And it's like she gets extra affectionate.
• 50:55
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And that's true with all animals.
• 50:57
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, cows ~ have a great sense of self-awareness and are very gentle And like I said, if we if we can't extend our compassion to animals, I think we're in trouble because Mm-hmm.
• 51:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I don't know how we as a species we have to evolve from this kind of linear reductionist, ~ self-centered way of thinking to a what I call heart-centered wholism.
• 51:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ and and and and that's you know heart-centered wholism by definition is universal. You you can't look out at the world and say, hey I love my dog But I think it's okay to to feed cows,~ feed that that they're not used to, an artificial feed loss so that they get bloat and and then you have to shove garden hoses down their throats to stop them with water, to stop them from suffocating.
• 52:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, Mm.
• 52:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: you can't you can't love your animals at home and then support an industry that that. That's not heart-centered wholism.
• 52:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: That's living at the expense of others.
• 52:11
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And as long as we have that mindset.
• 52:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: and we see the world in a tinker toy kind of way, in a reductionist kind of way, self-serving kind of way, we're gonna have major problems.
• 52:23
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So as as as a species, we have to take a leap forward in how in how we think and feel.
• 52:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent.
• 52:33
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ did you did you ever ~ now that there is AI you mentioned that, have you all taken that raw data from the China study and fed it into AI?
• 52:44
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: No, but I have ~ fed a lot of information into it relating to my father's work and research. And I think it's interesting'cause I think AI tends to think like we do because we've trained it, you know, in human ways of thinking.
• 53:02
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so it's funny because it'll oftentimes talk about research in a very reductionist way, just spitting wow.
• 53:09
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: back you know, just spitting back what people have Yes.
• 53:11
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: already said. So I've had interesting ~ exchanges going back and forth on the topic of holism versus reductionism.
• 53:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Good.
• 53:20
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Interesting. ~ can you so one one couple last quick questions. Who who do you admire for the way they're aging?
• 53:32
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: you know, I don't know if it's just any one person.
• 53:34
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I've met a lot of people along my journey who are older, who are aging well, and I would I would say that they're people who have a sense of humility. You know, they've learned a lot over the years that maybe one of the l the biggest lessons they've learned is that they didn't always know as much as they thought they knew. ~ there's a kind of a humility about people who are aging well. There's ~ a a lovingness.
• 54:05
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, I think people who age well there they they tend to be humble, they tend to be loving. ~ And they They tend to live in a more holistic way.
• 54:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: They see health as more than food.
• 54:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We talk about this at the retreats that we do.
• 54:21
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Health is way more than food. Just focusing on food is itself very Yeah.
• 54:28
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And there's so much research coming out now about the purpose of ~ the value of purpose and exercise and having peace in your life and social connection.
• 54:37
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yes.
• 54:38
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so people who age well tend to understand that holistic view of health.
• 54:43
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: what what's your guilty pleasure?
• 54:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Guilty pleasure. I've been working so hard lately.
• 54:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I'm trying to that that's probably my guilty pleasure is that I don't have of them. Because because I'm I'm probably working too hard.
• 54:59
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: we just I I think that for me, living in a connected community, we live in a very connected community right now.
• 55:09
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: No, that's not a guilty pleasure, it's a pleasure.
• 55:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It's a pleasure, pleasure.
• 55:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But but but but I that's really important to us, you know, having ~ community and friends and being outdoors, nature. Nature is something very we live in the mountains of North Carolina, so there's a lot of that around.
• 55:27
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and and getting outside, you know, getting some sunshine, going on walks, ~ go to the gym.
• 55:38
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Those are some of my outlets and and I don't feel guilty.
• 55:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I I don't know if I like I don't really smoke or drink or anything like that.
• 55:46
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I don't I don't know what my guilty pleasure is.
• 55:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: I have some pleasure.
• 55:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Good. Okay. Good, good.
• 55:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Well, I think we'd be remiss if we didn't mention ~ Kim's cookbooks.
• 55:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: She has yeah. How ma so we could just find those on Amazon, Kim Nelson.
• 56:01
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Yeah, so so maybe that's a good way to close it up is to say that Kim has been with me from the beginning of this journey and she when she was younger she wanted to go to culinary~ her her dad wasn't so crazy about it, encouraged her to go to a four year college,~ but she l just loves food and recipes and ever since I've known her s you know one of her pastimes is sitting on the couch and creating new recipes, reading, reading things, reading about other food cultures and and different And she handles all of that for the programming that we do now.
• 56:41
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: but she's done been doing this now for Gosh, decades. So she has Yes.
• 56:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: gotten really good at it and all of the various food products that we've ever utilized in our organizations, most of them she created and she wrote three cookbooks.
• 56:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So if you go to Amazon, you all you gotta do is type Plant Pure and Kim Campbell and all three of them will come up.
• 57:07
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But she's Yes. Kim is his beautiful partner in crime, his wife, if anybody doesn't Yeah.
• 57:13
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: know and her cookbooks are fabulous and I've used her recipes quite a bit.
• 57:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ I love I made ~ her chicken nuggets were like such a hit with my kids when they were younger, and they they well, they're not chicken, obviously, but those were amazing. But yes, so Kim Kim's cookbooks, your retreats, they you could f your sub stack, your documentaries, we could find that all at Nelson Campbell dot com.
• 57:39
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: yes and also our programming ~ is at Campbellretreats.com and Campbell Retreats Doctor.
• 57:45
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: we just we just you know put up put up whichever one is next up on the website Okay.
• 57:51
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: but people can ~ go there and sign up to the waiting list as well so when we do another one we contact those people first.
• 58:00
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Okay, and that's where is it still a jump start or a~ immersion?
• 58:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: so yeah.
• 58:06
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So what we do, Lauren, it's really ex pretty exciting.
• 58:08
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: We've been doing this for quite some time and we've evolved it and I've we've come up with a program that I really, really love more than anything we've ever done before.
• 58:16
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So we call it our whole truth retreat.
• 58:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And ~ it's not the same as the food based immersions that we used to do.
• 58:24
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: The food is central to it in that we serve people delicious meals and Kim spearheads all of that.
• 58:31
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: She kind of plays the role of chef and she also does some instruction.
• 58:35
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: But the food is delicious. But in terms of the programming,~ in addition to some of the culinary instructions, is I do instruction that revolves around some of the themes that are in our book, The Whole Truth. And starting out with nutrition and telling my dad's story, progressing into biological holism, and what does that mean, and then How do how can we expand that concept of holism further beyond the realm of health and and ~ and into how we see every time we open up our eyes?
• 59:12
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and how does that lead us to this concept of part-centered holism?
• 59:15
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: What does that mean? What does it mean for our own lives as we wake up to this bigger idea? And and I also show a movie the first night, which becomes kind of a a study tool and that we use the next couple of evenings for interesting conversations about the ways in which we're manipulated and controlled, but how we can break free of that.
• 59:37
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And so ~ it's really a program about how how do we open our eyes to see bigger truths with delicious That sounds great. With delicious food.
• 59:48
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: food.
• 59:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: my gosh. I mean, that sounds great.
• 59:52
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Delicious food and an eye opening experience.
• 59:56
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Okay, we'll put that in the the show notes.
• 59:58
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Campbellretreats.com. Well, Nelson, I can't thank you enough for for your time and for being with us today.
• 1:00:04
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Thank you for your life's work and for for making I know you could have done a lot of things in your life. You are an entrepreneur, as you said, and I appreciate you and Kim and your dad, your whole family devoting your lives to this.
• 1:00:17
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So thank you.
• 1:00:19
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Thank you, Lauren, and and and you asked some really good questions for this.
• 1:00:23
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: It was an easy discussion. It was a fun discussion.
• 1:00:25
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You do a really good job ~ in this format.
• 1:00:27
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ thank you.
• 1:00:29
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: And and thank you for all you do.
• 1:00:30
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: ~ there there are ~ you know if it wasn't for all everyone w you know working and trying to advance this, ~ I would have given up a long time ago.
• 1:00:40
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: You know, there's a lot of good people out there who are trying to get the word out and ~ that's what gives me hope.
• 1:00:46
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: So thank you.
• 1:00:47
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Thank you. All right. You take care.
• 1:00:49
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: Bye-bye.
• 1:00:50
  co-author of the book The Whole Truth: All right, send ya bye.