Latest / Legal Late Night / The Modern Law Practice Playbook: Rethinking Law Firm Efficiency with Chad Burton

Transcript

The Modern Law Practice Playbook: Rethinking Law Firm Efficiency with Chad Burton · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. First, I review Happy Gilmore two. It is not up to par after that. I talk with Chad Burton, of Modern Law Practice. I'm on my intake systems bullshit again, but we also have a surprising conversation about a BS. Last but not least, I quizzed Chad on celebrity aliases. For example, did you know that frequent Adam Sandler collaborator? Kevin James, real last name is Nip Fling. It's true. Now, four people have always said, I look like Adam Sandler. See now you can't unsee it. And just to be clear, I didn't even think that was a compliment in the mid nineties when Sandler was on fire. Now it's even worse. So I look like a frumpy middle-aged white man who rarely shaves and wears gym clothes all the time. Well, actually that's kind of spot on honestly. (01:15): Now, if you don't believe me, just know that when I was in law school walking to the subway one night, this drunk girl came up to me and said, oh my God, it's Adam Sandler. Then she whipped out a boob, just one, the right one I think, and said, sign it randomly. She had a pen also. Now, because I'm a gentleman, I told her that I was not. In fact, Adam Sandler. Then she screamed at me. You celebrities are all alike assholes. Can't wait for losing. I guess I'm not sure how to segue from that exactly, but fast forward to 2025, happy Gilmore two is a direct to Netflix release. It's a sequel to Sandler's popular 1996 comedy Happy Gilmore in which a former hockey player becomes a pro golfer specializing in long drives. The original Happy Gilmore, though it's not his best movie, more than that shortly, is generally pretty great. (02:12): It's objectively hilarious at points like when he beats up Bob Barker and suggests that the price is wrong, bitch. Happy Gilmore. Two, however, is well, not that you want to see this movie, but spoiler alert, spoilers to follow. You could probably guess what's going to happen within five minutes. Now I want to call Happy Gilmore too, dog shit, but it feels like that's insulting to dog shit. Miraculously, this movie has a 64% Rotten tomato score, which is frankly an A front. This movie is a crime against humanity. It is terrible on every conceivable level. It's insanely lazy. They literally play clips from the original movie as callbacks like a bunch of times. Every character is somebody's son. None of the new jokes land like none. I don't think I left once during this entire film and it misunderstands its own characters. Happy Gilmore of the movie works because Happy Gilmore of the character is a manchild who succeeds against the odds. (03:17): Happy Gilmore. The movie works because Happy Gilmore, the character is an iconoclast upending the state old game of golf. That's why the first film works. This version of the Happy Gilmore character is just a depressed alcoholic. This literally all he is who languishes the entire film. I don't think Adam Sanders says one funny thing in this entire movie, but this time the movie introduces an upstart version of the live tour competing against the PGA and Happy Gilmore is on the side of the PGA. There are other really wild narrative choices as well. Here's where a spoiler alert power comes in. He kills his wife in the first five minutes of the movie with an err drive off of the tea, which elicited an audible. What the fuck from my daughter who is 10 and definitely understands storyboarding better than the entire Happy Gilmore two team. I don't necessarily have high standards for legacy sequels like these, which are made decades after the original movie, but Beetlejuice Beetlejuice was okay. (04:23): This is just horrendous total slop. Honestly, I don't even want to talk about it anymore and I wish I never saw it. I'll never be able to get that time back. The plot is so tossed off. I don't want to run it down. Honestly, if you want to read about it, just read the Wikipedia page seriously. So instead, I will perform a dramatic reading of parts of a beautiful critique of the film from Daily Beast author Nick Shaker, which is poetry. He writes, arguably the least inspired film in the actor's canon, if not all of movie history. Sick burn. By the way, director Kyle EK's follow-up is a cinematic abomination, devoid of imagination, skill or purpose floundering about for a criminally long 114 minutes, he has insanely long in search of a single laugh. Seriously, what a fucking lead inverted pyramid structure at its finest. (05:26): He summarizes with all due respect to grownups two, the ridiculous six in Sandy Wexler. Happy Gilmore II is the bottom of the Sandler Barrel, a grim disaster that not only siess the good name of its ancestor but so badly flails on its own limited terms that suggests the A-listers should concentrate on dramatic parts and leave the immature comedy to others. Well, there you have it. Couldn't agree more. Now you might be thinking to yourself, damn, what a hater this guy is. I kind of am a hater. Have you listened to the show before? But there are Adam Sandler movies I really like and I should say I'm cool with Adam Sandler taking his bags of Netflix cash and making shitty movies with his friends and families and tropical locales. If that's what he wants to do, I mean good for him. I would do the same thing. (06:14): I just have to like those movies. By the way, my son randomly passionately defending grownups. When we had this discussion I did not have on my bingo card. That all being said, here are some of the Adam Sandler movies I love. Let me rank them for you. Number one, the top of the heap in the Sandler Cannon, Billy Madison. This was his first big hit movie and is decidedly occult classic. This to me is the apex of the Sandler Manchild character. Seriously, he hits out of the park in his first time up at bat. The perfect conceit for the Sandler character is an adult who has to finish elementary school. This film has everything you could want. It explores the existential question of whether shampoo or conditioner is better. It struggles with questions of karmic retribution in his portrayal of the Odoyle family, and there is an academic decathlon for God's sake. (07:09): This movie has an unbelievable cast too. Chris Farley is the unhinged bus driver. Darren Mcg underrated character actor as Sandler's dad, norm McDonald, Veronica Vaughn, actress Bridgette Wilson, Pete RA's wife, Brad Whitford, Steve Buscemi. I can still quote random share from this movie from memory, just in case you're interested. Billy Madison has a 40% rotten tomato score and that's basically everything that's wrong with society. There is of course a lesson in all this. If your dog gets lost, you don't look for an hour and then call it quits. You get your ass out there and you find that fucking dog. Two 51st dates. This is the finest of the frequent Sandler Drew Barrymore pairing. It's a movie that takes place in Hawaii, so it's automatically awesome. But while this movie is definitely funny, it's actually emotionally engaging and even bittersweet, which let's just say is not a Sandler trademark. (08:10): The plot involves a woman with recurring amnesia with whom Sandler's character falls in love and he needs to reminder of who she is and about their relationship every day when she wakes up. It's really brilliant plotting, actually. I love Billy Madison, but it's still a dumb comedy. This is probably the best actual movie that Adam Sandler has done. Highly re watchable, lots of Beach Boys songs, weird Sean Aston performance. Check it out. Alright, number three, grandma's boy. This was a Sandler production, but he did not appear in it as an actor. He is got this production company called Happy Madison. Get a Happy Gilmore. Billy Madison. The lead of this movie is another Sandler collaborator, though a lesser known one. Alan Covert. You've got an early Jonah Hill performance here. Linda Carini is the love interest. Basically Alex, the main character is a video game designer who's evicted from his apartment and has to live with his grandmother, hence the title and her two other elderly friends that she also lives with hilarity and seus as the grannies, play video games and go to wild parties. (09:16): One of Alex's friends hooks up with one of the grandmother's friends. Of course, that's probably inevitable. There's a lion, there's a monkey. Who knows Kung Fu. I mean, what the fuck more do you want? I ask you. Are you not entertained? The best character in the movie though is JP the video game designing prodigy who tries to steal Alex's game. He is the biggest douchebag ever and they just shit on him. The entire film. This movie has a 15% run tomato score. Seriously, what are we doing people? Number four, the Wedding Singer. This is another Drew Barry Moore team up, which is excellent, but not as good as 51st dates, which is why I have it here. Sandler's Robbie character, the titular wedding singer, tries to stop Barry Moore's Julia from marrying a man with the last name Glia, thereby obviously destroying her life and becoming Julia Glia, which they referenced several times in the movie. (10:08): Amazing eighties tracks. In this one, A memorable cameo from Billy Idol Moore. Alan Covert is Sandler's best friend, much better plotting than your standard Sandler film as well. Definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it. Number five, happy Gilmore. The original Happy Gilmore from 96 is excellent. I'm just not as high on it as most other people, but I will say that this movie is roughly a trillion times better than the sequel. Shout out to Christopher McDonald who plays the Bad Guy, shooter Mcg Gavin, who is maybe the best thing to come out of Happy Gilmore, honestly, he's also the best part of the wretched Happy Gilmore two and Happy Gilmore. The original movie doesn't really work without him. He's just totally manic and insane in these movies. I'm Kevin Neland, also doing some tremendous work in almost all of his cameos in Sandler movies here. (10:58): He's clearly doing the bull dance, feeling the flow, working it honorable mentions I have some big daddy's pretty good, although not great. Also, I think that one's a little overrated, uncut gems. Also not that big. A fan of uncut gems. Also a little overrated in my opinion though. I obviously love a kg cameo when I can get 'em. Rob Hardigan told me to watch, that's my boy with Andy Sandberg, so I will do that and report back. Can't believe I haven't seen that one actually, you are so not invited to my bat mitzvah. I really like. That's a recent Netflix movie that stars a lot of his family members, but it's fun and pretty earnest. Plus it's like no movies at all about Bat Mitzvahs, which is the girl version of a bar mitzvah for the uninitiated. So this is kind of a public service in its own right. Hustle is solid. The basketball movie Huey Halloween filmed across the street from my but is otherwise nondescript and who can forget Sandler's Turn as Satan in nor McDonald's Dirty Work, perhaps the greatest comedy ever made. They just call the next one Unhappy Gilmore because that's what I'll be next. We talk with Chad Burton, a modern law practice about his cameo and Happy Gilmore too. Now we're just doing practice management stuff, so let's get to that right now because on this show we don't leave any of our Chads hanging. (12:27): Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast from only a third of the way through, so I'm just going to shave my back. Honestly, it might take a little while, so please be patient if you can. No, that sounds fucking awful and I'm just messing with you. We're going to interview our guest instead. My guest today, I'm very excited. It's my old friend Chadwick Burton, the co-founder of Modern Law Practice and the CEO of Kiro Legal Hoorah. Chad, welcome to the show. So I have to say, I dunno, I feel like a dick now, but I didn't know Kiro Legal was a thing anymore, and we've known each other since lawyers started talking about the cloud. So roundabout 2023. So can you just catch me up to speed on what have you been up to? What are you doing now? And for the audience, if there's two or three people in the world who don't know who you are, Chad Burton (13:30): KIRO actually isn't a thing anymore. Okay, good. Glad we cleared that Jared Correia (13:34): Up. Scratch Chad Burton (13:35): That, right? There was a few lingering projects, but yeah, most my efforts are with modern law practice working with law firms, both from a consulting and tech perspective. We've developed an operation system, we call it law firm os. So it's a full on platform to run your law firm off of focused more on the aspects of milestones, goal tracking and how that data ties in with intake and working with your clients. So doing that as well as we still, we do outsource intake as well. Jared Correia (14:23): A little bit of an outgrowth from, because when you used to do the kero thing, you were doing technology management consulting and development for law firms. Is that a fair summation? Chad Burton (14:33): Yeah, that was more the consulting piece. Yeah, I think when I first started doing working with law firms and doing the aspect of consulting, it was tech heavy and then it still is, but it's led with the management side of the firm. How are you running this? How are you doing with the people part and how does tech support that? So that was a shift as opposed to being like, all right, you have problems, let's go solve it with tech. Well, first let's look at what are the aspects of your systems and processes, your human issues that are there as you're evaluating where you need humans and where you don't. It's become a lot more interesting to figure out where tech fits in, and I don't like systematizing away people's jobs, but it is kind of enjoyable At the same time when you're like, look, a firm has three, four too many people. When you get it down to one, there'll be fine. There'll be other jobs out there. But for this particular firm that we're focused on, that's interesting that you can do that, which also shows firms are paying too much money for humans and the aspect of leveraging tech on is not Jared Correia (16:06): Bad. Yeah. Is it the case that people are being pushed out by ai? I mean, that's a harsh term, but I guess that's kind of what's happening. Are they getting upskilled? Are they moving to less efficient law firms? In your experience? What's happening to people if they sort of are like, oh shit, my job can be done by ai. What now? Chad Burton (16:33): I don't even think it's necessarily ai. Well, to answer your question ish, or efficiencies in general, I guess I would go more that route. That's where (16:44): I think the AI piece ties into that, but I think it's the efficiencies in general where people fuck around with spreadsheets for hours or they'll use Cleo Manage that has this great billing system and all these bells and whistles on it, but they don't use them. And so they'll have billing people that spend a week processing invoices each month that they're like, I'm out of commission for the next week when they could have pushed three buttons and been there. Or if the lawyers and paralegals entering the time hadn't done a shitty job upfront and everything would be in there when it's time to process it. So these are more like then that person doesn't have to go back and spend all that time. So I think it's efficiencies and better processes first, and I think the AI piece is tied in. I mean, I haven't spent enough time with it, but I started with chat GBTs, the agent, AI agent thing that they released last. It's supposed to be doing things for you now, just not answering your questions. That sounds fun. You can log into stuff and it will do it. And from the bit of research, it seems like it's real basic, but that's fun. I Jared Correia (18:19): Agents are going to be rough for people, Chad Burton (18:22): Right? It's going to be rough for people. Instead of the idea of having you get done with a client and you tell your agent to go update the matter or update your system on it, and you push the little voice button and then it just goes out and does it. That's magical. And that's one of the things with our platform that I try to figure out how ai, there's this interesting idea, I think of all these bells and whistles and platforms, but how soon are we, if you have all the data stored somewhere, then you put a little agent on top of it, is it going to do the same work and give you the same spit out, the same kind of that's going to change everybody's platforms over time and it's not that far away. Jared Correia (19:27): Okay, let me ask you this. Can we stay on the people thing for a second here? I think the messaging, if I'm running a law firm and I'm like, I think your advice is spot on, by the way, and I tell people this too, get personally efficient, make the law firm efficient, add the right tech, and then start looking at ai. I think the message I'm delivering if I own that law firm is, Hey everybody, it's cool. We're going to start to use ai, but we're going to upskill you and then you'll have a whole new job. I feel like in a lot of cases, that's probably a fairytale, and I think some of that is like, Brenda, you're fucking done here. What is actually going to happen? Do you have thoughts on that? I don't know that everybody's going to be able to get upskilled past the point of being more effective than the AI is what you're saying. Chad Burton (20:15): Probably. I think we'll see a little bit of both. I've seen some team members who are told by their firm, don't ever send another email because you sound dumb until you run it through chat, GBT or things like that where, and those folks go out and learn what they need to learn and do that. And I've been in these meetings, these team meetings where you'll hear somebody say, well, I ran this through chat GBT, and every time I hear that, it kind of warms my heart because they're not pretending like it's theirs. But they're also indicating, Jared Correia (20:59): Yeah, Chad Burton (21:00): You told us to use this stuff. I'm using it and here's what it's telling me. So I think mean, it's like any human, some people are lazy as shit, and you're going to try to help upskill them and make them better and they're just not going to do Jared Correia (21:15): It. Chad Burton (21:16): And that's human behavior Jared Correia (21:18): There. Chad Burton (21:18): And if it's somebody that cares about their job, wants to be better at it, they'll go do it. And so I think that underlying human component will still be there depending upon whether the person is driven or not, to go along with that ride. Jared Correia (21:37): Okay. I want to talk to you about, you've got a new newsletter that's come out. I know this because it's delivered to my inbox on a recurring basis, and it's called the tech infused Leader. Can you talk about that a little bit? Are we talking brain implants or are we not Chad Burton (21:54): Quite there yet? Well, it's going to evolve over time, and I hope so. Yes. Hopefully just right in your Jared Correia (22:00): Wait, you're hoping? You're hoping yes for brain implants? Chad Burton (22:02): Yeah, why not? Yeah, no. So the idea being Jared Correia (22:06): I'm fucking out on brain implants, but go Chad Burton (22:09): Ahead. Well, the newsletter concept comes from, it's not at that point, but it's more about thinking about your team and the role that tech plays and tech infuse meaning because I am of the camp, well, I just said something about implanting things, but when we're talking about ai, I'm always going to experiment with things early on, try 'em out, but not everybody's like that. And not everybody adopts things. What we were talking about earlier a few minutes ago about people that will upscale because they'll use the AI tools that they weren't before. There's this sliding scale of how folks work with tech and how they evolve as team members. And so the idea behind it is that the more you understand your people and how they are going to leverage tech and how to encourage them at the right level, that's where, and everybody's a leader within a firm in their own way. (23:22): So this isn't about law firm owners, but it's also about the rest of your team and how they're going to embrace tech. And we put together these five personas on, there's the explorer, that front person that's going to be way out there, like me, early adopter type people. You've got these cautious guardians of people, like this is going to ruin everything. And I know you're pretending like you want to be in a cave, but you're not that guy. But there's folks out there that, and they're right, not yet. You want those people on your team. They may drive you insane, but you want them there because they're going to help put you in check. There's also the people that are data-driven or they think they are, where they're like, we can't make any decisions without the data. And then they spend months looking at stuff and they don't even really know what they're supposed to look at. (24:22): And then they're like, well, now I feel comfortable and right. We can't make any decisions, period. The data's not there yet. So the idea being that one is helping people along a journey of leveraging tech in their roles in their world to be better leaders within the firm and also for those who are doing things like implementing tech projects, know your people. And so as we do this, as we go in and we work with the firm, we have them do the assessment to understand personas of everybody so that if we know, I think you were mean about Brenda earlier, so if we know that Brenda hates everything about what's about to happen, we know how to help the team properly handhold them. And if somebody's getting stuck on something, they're just not quite sure they're not buying into it. Well, why is that? And this mixes well with other concepts like we're big fans of Enneagrams, and if you've ever done your Enneagram number, figure that out. No, no. But can you tell people what personality for those personality? It gives you a number one through nine. You should do it. I'll send you a code and figure out your Jared Correia (25:53): All. I'll do it. Chad Burton (25:54): Got, there's folks that, well, I'm an eight, which is called a challenger, which is basically a jerk, I guess, and pushes people. And Jared Correia (26:08): What is nine hassle? Nine? Chad Burton (26:10): Oh, what is nine? Nine is the peacemaker. So no, they don't go and it's not like a scale, it's not like a sliding scale of one to nine. So the opposite. Okay, yeah, 10 category. The Jared is the, we'll just call it the Jared, but no nine's a peacemaker. So people that really don't want to fight, they want, let's figure this out. Sevens are, I forget the label on it, but they're entrepreneurial interested in new things. And so basically it hits on all the types of personalities. So when you start mixing these different concepts together, you start to see, oh, here's how I can better communicate with my team. Here's how I can be more successful in implementing projects that are going to be difficult. And that will change the firm. If you're coming in and saying, look, we want you to use chat EBT to help do all these things. You know that some people will do it immediately. Some people won't do it at all, and people will do it, begrudge it. It's going to be all over the place. But if you know how they act upfront, that's super helpful and you'll be more successful. Because the worst thing is it's rough when you try to implement a new project and it doesn't work out. Those happen. But if it doesn't work out, you want to know why upfront. Jared Correia (27:39): Yeah, I mean work testing, personality testing, I think that's really underutilized in law firms. So I just realized we've had a few episodes come out now where we've talked about intake, and I did two prior episodes where we talked about intake not planned that way, that's just the way it came out. But we mostly talked about web forms and intake form strategy. What about phone intake? Because I know that's something that you're heavily concerned with and that's a huge deal for law firms. So what are your thoughts on phone intake in the modern environment and how do you do that well, Chad Burton (28:13): Oh, was fun in the modern environment. Well, you still need humans for this. One of I, oh, one of he's like, Hey, I'm testing out this AI thing for reception and he gave me this number. Everybody is, it's interesting. And so from an intake perspective, we think about it from the standpoint of intake in our world is everything from when a lead arises. So whether it's like a web form, phone call, et cetera, through hiring and everything in between. And so having this goes back to the systems part. So if you have a solid system in place, the human part's a lot easier. And so ideally, once you get a color, if we're talking about the phone part of this, once they get to talk to an intake specialist or we call 'em client advocates, if your marketing has done a good job, they're informed about the firm, they know what they're getting, they're going to ask some core questions. (29:27): And ideally that discussion is, it's a sales call, and it depends on what that outcome is. It may be that if it's in the PI world, for example, we created, we've done this a couple of different ways, but where an intake person asks questions and once they get done with their questions of the potential client, it gives 'em a score. And if the score is a certain number above, they're allowed to sign that person up automatically. If it's not, they have to hand it off to an attorney. And so things like that that are kind of interesting, where if you have those systems done upfront, your intake folks are going to be more successful. And so they still play a huge role because if somebody's calling, let's say they didn't do a self schedule on your website, if they're calling and they need to talk to a human before hiring, there's some holes and they need some questions answered or they just need to feel better about the human on the other end of things or to know that there are humans involved with it. And so if you have good sales folks, then that's super important to getting either the signup or the consultation scheduled at that point. But we try to, our goal with intake in the client advocates is to keep their role as streamlined as possible because when it becomes unwieldy and you have a thousand steps, they've got to deal with, the phone call requires 45 minutes of digging of information before you allow these people to schedule. It depends on what your goal is with it, but we want it to be streamlined as much as Jared Correia (31:17): Possible. So that's another planning thing. Ai, virtual receptionist not ready for prime time Chad Burton (31:27): SEI hope so soon. That's at least getting, well, I just upgraded to iOS 26, the new public beta that Apple released and apparently it'll screen your calls now for you. I haven't turned that on. I'm a little worried about it. I want to test it out though, but it will screen your calls and let you know who's calling. And so I think at least the ones that I've tested I think were real interesting. Sometimes they were very successful and took you down the right path. Sometimes they didn't want to listen to you at all. I mean, it's not unlike chat GBT where sometimes you're like, do this, and it's like, nope. And they're like, no, no, no, I mean it do this. And you're like, no, yeah, it's the same thing. Sometimes it was very smooth, but then other times it was rough and that's okay. That's expected. Jared Correia (32:27): Last segment I want to cover here in this part of the show is you're living in Arizona. It's hot, but it's a dry heat as people tell me. Lots of crazy shit going on in Arizona is like, we don't have ethics rules anymore. So fucking have at it. A BS is available there. They're pretty much the vanguard right now in experimentation in law practice. So do you want to talk a little bit about what's happening and your thoughts Chad Burton (32:58): On that? So it's interesting, it was I think 2021 when the fee sharing split or fee sharing prohibition went away and a BS has started. So we're what, four years into it? I think having LPs, it's for those of you familiar with Triple lts in Washington, that program that didn't quite make it, this is Arizona's version of it where based on your experience in education, you don't have to go to law school and you can be your licensed as a legal paraprofessional. I always get that wrong, but you get a bar number. Yeah, you get a bar number, something like that, and you get licensed in certain areas. So you can do family law. There's some limits on it. You can't do, I think they're changing some of these, but I think technically you can't do quadros or divorces involving businesses because of complicating factors, but I think they have an estate planning one, they have different, they have a criminal defense one, so they're focused, but what's cool about it's firms are hiring them. And so you've got paralegals that can go take this test and now become licensed and show up to court. And any scenario, you can imagine different outcomes. But I've seen conversations where LPs are just destroying existing lawyers in court because probably in part because they're underestimated and Jared Correia (34:46): Yeah, I'm not shocked by that. I also know plenty of paralegals who are better than lawyers and lawyers. Chad Burton (34:52): So you've got that. Frankly, the ABSs, I think most, a lot of the folks that you'd expect from the tech companies have set up their version of those legal zooms next points and others have them. There's a big element of marketing, especially in the PI world, being able to infuse ungodly amounts of money through ABSs to help generate leads for pi, which is really, and because the fee sharing rule is gone, it now changes the dynamic of an Arizona firm. So for example, if you sitting in Boston, Jared, send a case to a firm in Arizona, they're allowed to give you, let's say they're like, oh, we'll give you 50% of the fee for it. They're allowed to, and that's real. So a lot of times in discussions it's been discovered you don't really need an A BS, you just can share fees, and that's a lot easier. And that's not a, because with the AB Bs, you have to pay, apply, get approved. Fee sharing is just applic. Jared Correia (36:16): Each process. Yes, whole thing. It's funny, when I talk to lawyers, one of the things that sucks about running a law firm is that there's all these rules and wouldn't it be cool to run a law firm with fewer rules? And this kind of opens that up for attorneys and non-attorneys. Really, it's like the wild west, frankly. It's what I would want to be doing. Chad Burton (36:42): Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's really, but I think it's still evolving because if you're outside of areas of practice where people are used to sharing fees, it's still uncomfortable. I mean, things aren't moving as fast as you'd expect, and so it still feels uncomfortable for a lawyer to receive a thank you note and a $500 check for referring a case to them. Unprompted, you send, oh, you should. Also, it's not a buy agreement. If you think about from a PI perspective, traditional model, you're going to split the fee and it, you've got a rule structure to fit within it. But now, I mean with Arizona, you could get a case from somebody and just be like, you didn't ask, but here's some money and that's uncomfortable to people still. So I think that part's going to take a minute. Jared Correia (37:54): The spectrum is like no fee sharing rules at all. And then, yeah, I was at a conference last week talking to a couple of lawyers who were like, this fee sharing thing seems really, I don't ever want to do it ever. And there's a lot in between. Chad Burton (38:09): It's still hard for firms to grasp with some PI firms that I work with. It is a constant, unless you are one of these massive, massive shops, it's still a constant struggle in evaluation as to the best types of cases to bring in. Because if you do a good job with SEO, digital marketing, whatever, let's go as broad as possible digital marketing on that. You do a good job and you get good cases in the fee is all yours, but they also know that the best cases they get are often from former clients or other attorneys, and you're giving up for other attorneys, you're going to give up probably half of that fee, but you wouldn't have had the case. So you've got these competing dynamics, so you really have to push on the gas on everything to experiment with it because it could go up and down. I talking to a guy the other day who they've done better off of referrals from attorneys than digital, but then recently their marketing team cracked whatever local issues to compete and now they're getting, and so they're like, okay, we can do both and feel good about it, but it takes work and sometimes it can take years for firms to figure out the best way to set up their marketing. Jared Correia (39:46): Not surprisingly, good discussion here. We covered a lot of ground. Alright, everybody, stay tuned. We'll come back with our last segment here. Alright, welcome back everybody. That's right. We're here in the counter program. Once again, it's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Speaking of which, you can expect no rhyme and very little reason, but what you can expect is Chad Burton coming back. Chad, thanks for hanging with us. I appreciate it. Today we're going to launch a new segment for this show called, formerly known as The Object of the game is simple. I'm going to tell you a famous person's real name and give you some attributes or accomplishments relating to them, and you just need to tell me their alias by which they are more popularly. No, I feel good about this. You Chad Burton (40:49): Ready? I feel like I'm Jared Correia (40:52): I. Chad Burton (40:53): You'll be good. I enjoy. Yeah, this will be good. I feel good about it. Alright, let's do it. Jared Correia (40:59): I feel like you could sweep the whole thing all. So what I'll do is I'll say the real name and then I'll give giving you clues until you can tell me who it is. All right. Number one, and if you can guess it without any of the clues, you just let me know. You just fire away. This person's real name is Stephanie, Joanne, Angelina, German, Chad Burton (41:21): Lady Gaga. Jared Correia (41:22): Stephanie. Joanne. Oh yes, you got it. But did you know that was her name ahead of time? Really? I'm, I'm impressed. All right. You're one for one. Karen Elaine Johnson. Karen Elaine Johnson. First of all, do you know who this is? Okay, here we go. Let's start. Clue number one. She was the coach of the New York Knicks in the movie edit. Chad Burton (41:52): I remember who that is. Jared Correia (41:54): Have you seen the movie Eddie Roundly panned, roundly Chad Burton (41:58): Panned? No, I've not seen Eddie, but that clue did not help. Jared Correia (42:05): All right, here's another clue that may or may not help you. See, we make these difficult as we go on number two, before finding fame as an actress, she worked at various odd jobs, including as a brick layer and as a bank teller. Any guesses based on that? Okay. Last clue. I think we're going to going to be able to solve the puzzle here. Her stage name Whoopi reportedly came from a tendency to pass gas on stage like a human. Chad Burton (42:38): Oh, so the third clue is real easy. It's Whoopi Goldberg. Nice. Jared Correia (42:45): Yes. So I did not know that about her. Alright, number three. This one might be easy for you is another music one. I think I might have been able to get this one right off the rip, but here we go. Real name? Reginald, Kenneth, Dwight. Real name? Reginald. Kenneth Dwight. Chad Burton (43:05): Oh, this feels like one I've heard, but I can't, I don't know. I need clues. Jared Correia (43:13): Okay. Clue number one. This musician is an ego winner and he sold over 300 million. Chad Burton (43:21): John Legend. Jared Correia (43:25): Oh, all right. That's a good guess. That's a good guess. Not quite. I'm going to keep the clues coming. Number two, he owns over 1000 pairs of glasses, but does not have a smartphone. Chad Burton (43:38): Oh, Elton John Jared Correia (43:39): Owns over 1000 pairs of glasses. Yes. Elton John, I got a few more for you. Next one, Thomas C Map Pother, the fourth Thomas C Map Pother the fourth. Chad Burton (43:56): I feel like you're pronouncing that last name wrong, and if you did it right, probably I probably did. It could be, but I don't know the answer. So yeah, this is not about me. Jared Correia (44:13): This is my fault. He initially wanted to become a Catholic priest attending a Franciscan seminary for a year before pursuing, what was the name again? Thomas c Maper the fourth. All right. Chad Burton (44:34): I don't know Jared Correia (44:34): Yet. Okay. His iconic smile is partly due to a chipped front tooth from a childhood hockey accident, which he chose not to fully correct. Let me do the last, I feel like you got it here. He has claimed that Scientology cured his dyslexia. Chad Burton (45:01): Tom Cruise has a cracked tooth Jared Correia (45:02): Actor who claims that Scientology has a Does he? Apparently. Apparently. Yeah. Yeah. I learned this online. Chad Burton (45:11): He wanted to be approved by these Scientology scenes better. Okay, got it. Jared Correia (45:18): Yeah, right. As one does. So I did play a dirty little trick on that one. His middle name is Ashley Cruz Chad Burton (45:25): Smart. So I had to add this. That was a good Jared Correia (45:26): Move. Too easy for you to get. His full name is Thomas Cruz. Matt Pother the fourth, which I did not know until today. Number five. You're three for four. This person's real name is Faruk BOLs. Faruk BOLs. Do you know who this is? That's another Chad Burton (45:42): One. Like the Elton John one? Jared Correia (45:47): Yeah. Yeah. I feel like this could be guessable if the right name pops into your head. Chad Burton (45:54): All right. I need a clue. Jared Correia (45:58): He designed his band's logo by incorporating the Zodiac signs of each of the members. He designs his band's logo by incorporating the zodiac signs of each of the members. I feel like Chad Burton (46:11): This is one of those where I keep feeling like I've heard this, but it's all probably made up in my head. I came out real strong. I feel like Have Lady Gaga. That was hard. You did? Yeah. You were like, fuck it. I don't need any clues. It was going to be easy. I'm a Lady Gaga fan. A Star is Born is a great movie. All right. I got nothing. You see that? It's a great movie, Jared Correia (46:34): Right? Yes. Yes. Star is Born is great. All right. I got a second clue for you. He worked as a roadie for David Bowie, by the way. David Bowie's real name is David Robert Jones. Chad Burton (46:48): You learned lots of information in your research for this. Jared Correia (46:51): Of course, baby Jones and the Monkeys. I'm just Googling shit left and right before achieving his own success as a singer, he worked for David Bowie as a roadie, so a musician as a singer in England. I got one more that I think is going to put you over the top. Chad Burton (47:11): I like your third clue. Those are usually pretty helpful. Jared Correia (47:14): Okay. This one I think is pretty helpful, but we'll see where it goes. Okay. Number three. He had an overbite, which he refused to correct due to his belief that it contributed favorably to his singing voice. A lot of dental stuff going on here. An overbite. Chad Burton (47:36): I have no idea. Jared Correia (47:39): All right. Freddy Mercury, queen Lead Singer. Okay, I got one more. We're in the acting category. This person's real name is Nea Lee Hirschlag. So another marketing choice was made. Ned Lee Netta dash Lee Hirschlag. Okay. Clue number one. She published two papers in scientific journals during her high school years. One on an enzymatic method for hydrogen production, and another on the effect of a sugar phosphate amino acid mixture on the growth of a particular bacterium. I'm sure you've read both of Chad Burton (48:20): These. Yeah. Better than my kids at night or to bed. Jared Correia (48:29): That'll definitely put you sleep. All right. Clue number two. She once appeared in a music video for the song Carmel by the Israeli musician, Avery Lider, long before her major film rolls. So we know she's scientific. Israeli Italians music video. Any thoughts? We're talking about An actress Chad Burton (48:57): Got nothing. Jared Correia (49:00): And then I got one more clue for you. Hi, last clue in the original Star Wars trilogy, she was Darth Vader's girlfriend. Chad Burton (49:14): Oh, I started picturing actual Darth va. I'm like, he didn't have a girlfriend. Yeah, a Jared Correia (49:24): Corman. I'm, I'm not a Star Wars guy. I don't know. It's Anakin. I don't the Walker. That dude's name is Garth Vader, Chad Burton (49:31): But it's Natalie Portman Star Walker. I was just, actually what happened was I was picturing, I was thinking about Scott Garth Vader holding hands kissing somebody. That's not part of the show. This is made up. Jared Correia (49:49): Yeah. I'm just not a Star Wars guy, so I couldn't remember the name of the guy. Chad Burton (49:54): No, I think that was a good way to do it because it really threw me, so thank you. You have to think. Thank you for assisting next Layer down with Anakin. Jared Correia (50:06): Alright sir, four for six. Thanks for coming on. So we'll do another show. We'll do the Star Wars prequels and you can school me on what to call Chad Burton (50:14): People. I can handle major characters. That's about all. Yeah, that's where we're going to get to. So, but yeah, Jared Correia (50:23): You acquitted yourself. Well today here sir, please return. Chad Burton (50:27): Sure. At some point. Just lemme know when I'll be back. Thanks for having me. Jared Correia (50:33): Alright, thanks for that. Thanks for coming on, man. My pleasure. Thanks for our guest, Chad Burton of Modern Law Practice. To learn more about modern law practice, visit modern law practice.com. That's modern law practice.com. Now, because I'll always be a nineties kid trying to see just one nipple through the Scrambled Cinemax channel at 2:00 AM whose True passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlist for every podcast that I record, where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist, we're going to do Adam Sandler tracks. Honestly, Sandler's Best Work is probably his early comedy albums, and I'm going to expose that to you now, and it's sponsored by Titleist Golf Balls. I'm just kidding. By the way, Titleist didn't sponsor shit, but I wish they would. I'll fix my slice, I swear. Join us next time when I remind you of one of the more important Logic Games questions that you'll need on the LSAT. If ping your pants is cool, then consider me Miles Davis. I.