Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Men With Difficult Childhoods Become Either Assholes Or Scaredy-Cats And These Two Groups Don't Understand Each Other

Transcript

Men With Difficult Childhoods Become Either Assholes Or Scaredy-Cats And These Two Groups Don't Understand Each Other · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi, everybody, and welcome to the dr.
• 0:07
  Psych mom show today. I am going to talk about a
• 0:12
  dichotomy, which I've experienced as a clinician and
• 0:16
  which most people will probably recognize once I explain it,
• 0:20
  we're men who have difficult childhood.
• 0:23
  So they have issues from how they were raised, you know,
• 0:27
  obviously that could be related to anything but we'll explore
• 0:31
  that. They tend to fall on one of two.
• 0:35
  Kind of buckets overall, they're either scared of everything,
• 0:39
  very anxious, passive scared feeling victimized, or they kind
• 0:43
  of become assholes and they go on the offensive and they become
• 0:47
  aggressive. So if you are a man who is
• 0:50
  struggling with the aftermath of a difficult childhood, which you
• 0:53
  may or may not, you know, say is part of your issue, you may not
• 0:58
  admit it to yourself at always impacts you, then this will be
• 1:01
  useful. And also, if you're married to a
• 1:03
  man that that grew up in a difficult sir, Stan's, you may
• 1:06
  recognize these two types. Of course, everything is
• 1:09
  complex. People aren't just one thing,
• 1:11
  but you'll recognize probably some of these traits before we
• 1:15
  get into that. Please do subscribe.
• 1:18
  My last subscriber episode was what the hell is therapy for
• 1:22
  what? Anyway, like what are you
• 1:24
  supposed to expect in terms of change?
• 1:27
  What are you, what are your expectations for therapy?
• 1:31
  And can they be fulfilled? Because sometimes people's
• 1:33
  expectations are Are very different than what a human
• 1:37
  being that is your therapist can actually affect in terms of
• 1:40
  change. So, it's good to know going into
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  it and people usually, like, kind of a look behind the
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  curtain at what therapists, you know, think about therapy.
• 1:50
  Anyway, that's seems to be kind of a popular topic for you guys.
• 1:53
  I guess you are curious about about the process.
• 1:57
  Obviously if you're following me.
• 1:58
  Okay. So moving on.
• 2:00
  I was in my Facebook group and y'all should join my Facebook
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  group because Sparks a lot of interesting discussions for
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  Ninety-Nine a month only and you get to it, clicking the blue
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  subscribe button on my doctor, psych mom, Facebook page.
• 2:15
  Okay, so there was a discussion in there and there were these
• 2:18
  two guys that weren't really understanding each other.
• 2:21
  And what I realized was that, you know, it's because probably,
• 2:26
  you know, they both have difficult childhoods but they
• 2:28
  adapted in very different ways. So one was more anxious and one
• 2:32
  with somebody who goes on the offensive, you know who's Who is
• 2:35
  one of those what I'm calling here, an asshole, you know, and
• 2:40
  what's interesting about the guys who are assholes, is there
• 2:42
  never offended at asshole, they just laugh.
• 2:46
  So, you know, because they're like, yeah, I can be an asshole.
• 2:48
  It's like so obvious. They've heard it, you know?
• 2:50
  Like they've heard it already and as I'm going to explain It's
• 2:54
  A coping strategy, it's like a preferred coping strategy, they
• 2:57
  would rather be an asshole than like a scaredy cat, you know?
• 3:01
  And so why would a man feel like these are kind of the two
• 3:04
  options. Are available for a masculine
• 3:07
  identity while because of a difficult family of origin
• 3:10
  situation. So if you did not feel that you
• 3:14
  were in a home where you could trust your Caregivers for safety
• 3:17
  and care, and for the ability to explore the world, then you
• 3:22
  basically turn into somebody who is either on the end of an
• 3:26
  anxious, preoccupied attachment style, which is beyond just
• 3:30
  attachment style. The preoccupied guys, usually
• 3:33
  struggle with anxiety and a range of domains, which are I'm
• 3:35
  saying here is that quote scaredy-cat, you know, for the
• 3:38
  sake of, you know, making something so obvious that
• 3:41
  everybody can can understand it and then the other guys become
• 3:46
  the more avoidant attachment style that's say I don't fucking
• 3:50
  need anybody for anything. Fuck all of you, you know, I
• 3:53
  know I can only rely on myself and I only will and so, you
• 3:58
  know, these guys become really hard Chargers and real assholes
• 4:01
  kind of in business and, and they could be real successful.
• 4:05
  Sometimes The military, you know, when they're like, you,
• 4:08
  you really learn how to be tough, you know?
• 4:10
  So I may differ for somebody that had a fantasy when they
• 4:13
  were little of getting away from possibly a violent, or abusive
• 4:16
  situation, or at the very least, an emotionally abusive
• 4:19
  situation, and that wants to just like, be in full charge of
• 4:23
  themselves. Never have to be vulnerable if
• 4:25
  this is a vulnerability issue so they're terrified of being
• 4:28
  vulnerable. So the military is often I see
• 4:31
  loads of guys that go from the military into business.
• 4:34
  A lot of these CEOs, I see were military and then business.
• 4:38
  But anyway, whether or not they did military, which is kind of
• 4:41
  also based on your culture and where your raised etcetera, they
• 4:44
  usually go into. So like some guys went to like a
• 4:47
  military school, I see some of those guys to or boarding school
• 4:52
  or they just got the fuck out of Dodge when they were 18.
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  They went to college or not but they basically never came home
• 4:57
  again. So, you know, because they're
• 5:00
  adaptive, coping strategy was, I am going to be completely
• 5:04
  self-reliant. And fuck, everybody can really
• 5:07
  trust. People could never really trust
• 5:10
  my parents, not that they articulate this, but this is
• 5:12
  where it stems from subconsciously can never really
• 5:14
  trust. My parents for shit, so I'm
• 5:16
  never going to trust anybody again.
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  I am going to focus on me getting through the world like a
• 5:22
  hot knife through butter, and fuck all y'all.
• 5:25
  That's like how they think about.
• 5:27
  And then there's the Other Extreme, right?
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  So then there's the other guys who are very anxious their
• 5:32
  passive. They are very anxious about
• 5:34
  women, loving, Them. They're anxious about their
• 5:36
  sexual performance, they're anxious about.
• 5:39
  So so it was actually a discussion about sexual
• 5:42
  performance and guys who are too anxious to have an orgasm in the
• 5:45
  group that led to me realizing there's this dichotomy.
• 5:48
  That would be interesting to talk about.
• 5:50
  So there's guys that are like, the sexual style is very
• 5:54
  different between these two guys.
• 5:56
  The asshole guy could tend to be a love them, or leave them type.
• 5:59
  He could have a one-night stand all the time.
• 6:01
  You could have a million one night stands because it just
• 6:04
  shows how he's Powerful, how he doesn't need to rely on anyone?
• 6:07
  Who doesn't get involved with these women necessarily, and if
• 6:11
  he does get married with two a woman.
• 6:13
  It's after like he's thought about it and it's like a
• 6:16
  rational decision and, you know, maybe they even did like a
• 6:19
  personality test if he's into that psychology or he just, you
• 6:23
  know, was dating her long enough that he feels that he knows her
• 6:26
  strengths and her weaknesses and what he can and cannot expect
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  from her. It's a very cognitive decision
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  and that's how we protect himself from the Bility of
• 6:36
  opening himself up fully, you know, intimately right.
• 6:40
  But he has no problem with orgasm.
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  Usually, if he has problem with with, with anything is going to
• 6:46
  come, if he takes like a medication or something.
• 6:49
  And when guys like this have erectile dysfunction, they get
• 6:51
  very upset though. Like, go off their medication,
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  they don't give a shit because because they want to perform
• 6:58
  like it. That's it's a source of
• 7:00
  strength, right? It's a showing that you can, you
• 7:04
  know, have sex with a woman, And not be fully vulnerable.
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  You You're vulnerable if you lose your erection, You're
• 7:10
  vulnerable. So that's very terrifying to
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  this sort of, man, the one that I'm calling the asshole right on
• 7:15
  the other end of the spectrum. How do the guys get to be too
• 7:17
  passive, too? Anxious to scared.
• 7:20
  They also had a difficult upbringing but you know, people
• 7:24
  have personality variables. So a non highly sensitive man.
• 7:28
  Will probably become more of the asshole, but a highly sensitive
• 7:31
  man. In a difficult situation.
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  May become more of the passive anxious type of Person.
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  Who overthinks everything. Who wanders does?
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  My wife really love me and these guys do struggle with orgasm,
• 7:42
  with erection because they're in their own heads.
• 7:44
  So like the asshole guy will say, all right, if this guy is
• 7:47
  not getting off from from sex, he's either has like a porn
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  habit. Maybe he's cheating, maybe he's
• 7:53
  masturbating furiously the whole time that you're out of the
• 7:55
  house, something like that. Whereas, the more anxious highly
• 7:58
  sensitive guys, that never learned to trust people and
• 8:01
  fully open up within a relationship and I'll discuss.
• 8:05
  Why in one second? They'll be like, no, that guy's
• 8:08
  in his own head that guy's too anxious to come.
• 8:10
  He's too anxious to get hard. He's so anxious about what she
• 8:13
  thinks about him. The asshole guys like what she
• 8:16
  thinks about him? I mean, I don't know.
• 8:18
  Yeah, I guess. But that can't be it.
• 8:20
  I mean, the man must have a side piece but the, the anxious guys,
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  like a side piece is terrifying. I would never do anything like
• 8:27
  that. What if I got caught?
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  None of those women would love me anymore, right?
• 8:31
  So it's very, very different personality Styles.
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  So the guy that becomes more a passive is, usually a highly
• 8:36
  sensitive person who is also in an abusive or emotionally
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  abusive or emotionally neglectful environment, but he
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  modeled after a more anxious caregiver, the asshole guy
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  always has at least one asshole parent to model after.
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  Whereas the anxious scaredy-cat guy has one parent who's scared
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  of the world perennial victim and it could be both parents.
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  That feel very victimized. It frequently is an anxious home
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  where the parents are too busy. Being victimized by the world
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  and it's not their fault, they were taught the same style, they
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  likely have terrible childhoods themselves.
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  But in what we're talking about here, they are basically two
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  consumed with being an anxious victim to really care for the
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  child properly. And the child gets inculcated in
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  this idea that only if they see the world as filled with
• 9:25
  perpetrators and they are a victim.
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  Do they fit into the rubric at all?
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  That is like the family crest is feeling victimized so they learn
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  to be depressive. Yes, and victimized, you know,
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  and then within relationships, they play the same role.
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  They go for a woman that's an asshole so that they can still
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  play the same role. So, these are the preoccupied
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  attachment guys, that get involved with the avoidant w.
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  Now, what is this look like? When it's a woman?
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  I mean, I'll, this is about man, but I'll touch on it, briefly.
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  It's either the hard-charging ballbusting bitch or the
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  fainting, Victorian lady with the fainting couch, right?
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  These are these are the ways that this manifests, if you grew
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  up as Girl, you're more likely to be the latter because women
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  are more responsive to like the world takes care of women, a
• 10:13
  little bit more and allows them to be more vulnerable, Etc.
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  This isn't really vulnerability though this anxiety.
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  So, anxiety, precludes, vulnerability, if you're acting
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  like more of a victim than you are, you're not being authentic
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  and real anyway, so that precludes actual intimacy which
• 10:28
  is based on being authentic, but there's more women that take a
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  role of being The Perennial victim because that's how girls
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  are taught. Thought that the world should
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  protect them and they can, you know, share, they're scared and
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  anxious feelings more so than men are taught.
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  But it's again, based on personality trade on high
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  sensitivity, or not sensitivity. A highly sensitive woman raised
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  by anxious parents almost got no shot.
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  Not to be anxious unless she gets into a tremendous amount of
• 10:54
  therapy, right? And a non highly sensitive
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  woman. Let's say that's raised by an
• 11:00
  abusive parent, she met if she has a personality Do it and this
• 11:06
  is all based. There's traits, you know, you're
• 11:08
  genetically have a certain personality if she already has a
• 11:11
  personality with a lot of energy, a lot of drive then she
• 11:15
  may turn into kind of the female CEO, the female super hard
• 11:20
  charger in business, you know, doctor lawyer whatever, or just
• 11:26
  wouldn't even have to do with career.
• 11:28
  Sometimes it's just the woman that is super productive.
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  She doesn't need anybody at all for anything.
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  She could be a stay-at-home mom, that house is perfect.
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  The kids are on a routine. Like the military, like
• 11:42
  everything runs effortlessly, she also runs the bill.
• 11:45
  She runs every single thing in the house and the guy just goes
• 11:48
  to work and comes home and then she complains that he's so
• 11:50
  passive. But really she would not be able
• 11:53
  to interact with a man that was similar to herself because I
• 11:56
  would be a power struggle. She needs to be in complete
• 11:58
  charge of everything, and it's very convenient.
• 12:02
  If he has ADHD or addiction or depression or Because then she
• 12:06
  could say that it's because of him that she has to do
• 12:08
  everything. But if she looks back, she was
• 12:10
  doing everything since she was about seven years old because
• 12:12
  she couldn't trust anybody for shit.
• 12:14
  So, you know it, this is, this is how she is, you know?
• 12:18
  And so sometimes she could blame it on the husband and she picked
• 12:20
  him, you know, and I have this goes a lot to my podcast of when
• 12:24
  men never take care of you. One reason that men never take
• 12:26
  care of you is that you became this kind of person in response
• 12:31
  to a very difficult childhood and you learned, I have to rely
• 12:34
  on myself. I'm gonna be a fucking asshole
• 12:36
  because that is the only way to make sure my needs are met,
• 12:40
  right? And so the other type is this
• 12:43
  very anxious. What I'm saying, a fainting
• 12:45
  lady, you know, just laying around kind of has trouble has
• 12:49
  chronic fatigue as this that I'm not saying anything about
• 12:52
  chronic fatigue, I have migraines myself, but I'm just
• 12:54
  saying the sort of person who has chronic pain is related a
• 12:58
  million times in the literature to and a difficult abusive or
• 13:03
  neglectful or just We stressful upbringing which kind of you
• 13:09
  know really fucks your system up especially if you are sensitive.
• 13:14
  You know if you are if you are a highly sensitive person and a
• 13:17
  dysfunctional environment, this is how all sorts of disorders
• 13:20
  happen. You're more likely to have every
• 13:22
  single disorder Under the Sun and every medical issue Under
• 13:26
  the Sun. You can read the body keeps the
• 13:28
  score for more on this, right? So anyway, the the point is that
• 13:35
  when You have a difficult childhood it interacts with your
• 13:37
  personality, whether you're male or female, you can have a
• 13:41
  different sort of defense mechanism.
• 13:44
  And if your defense mechanism is being a victim and looking for
• 13:47
  people to care for you and being very anxious, then you
• 13:50
  frequently do not understand that all the people whose
• 13:53
  defense mechanism is being super Alpha super cocky, right?
• 13:58
  And the and if you are the super Alpha super cocky, you think
• 14:01
  that those anxious people are just fucking bullshit.
• 14:04
  I've seen this happen like a million times where I'm working
• 14:07
  with people that are these high levels of business that are
• 14:10
  more, the asshole or ballbuster type to empathize with the
• 14:13
  people that Not as physically strong and the, and that
• 14:17
  physical style, lack of physical strength is even worse.
• 14:20
  When it's also, somebody who is very scared because they're
• 14:23
  like, this is like what they hate the most.
• 14:26
  So, what you hate the most and I have a podcast on this is the
• 14:29
  disavowed Part of Yourself. These people that turned into
• 14:31
  the asshole, It's A coping mechanism with not being able to
• 14:35
  trust a parent, but they do wish on some level that sometimes
• 14:38
  they could be weak and vulnerable.
• 14:40
  They just feel that they can never because they can never
• 14:42
  trust anybody to care for them those moments and they never
• 14:44
  could so they have. So this is a disavowed part of
• 14:47
  themselves that weakness, what they perceive as this weakness
• 14:50
  and vulnerability. And so when they see somebody
• 14:53
  that they feel is really leaning into it, they think that that
• 14:56
  person is milking the system is lying.
• 15:00
  Its faking doesn't really feel bad isn't really anxious, Etc,
• 15:06
  you know. So that's why I like, as I said
• 15:08
  that the guy who's more of a, the asshole type says, yeah, I
• 15:11
  know, the only reason a guy would get in his head and, and
• 15:15
  Knock it doesn't say it is said, the only reason a guy wouldn't
• 15:17
  be able to perform as he has a porn habit, or he has a mistress
• 15:20
  or something like that, whereas the guy who's more anxious is
• 15:23
  like the fuck you talking about. I'm like so anxious that I can't
• 15:27
  get hard like that. That is a real thing for me and
• 15:30
  the other guys, like, what? Like, that isn't real like that,
• 15:33
  that can't happen. I would power through that.
• 15:36
  And yeah, you would power through that.
• 15:38
  But then again, there's also bad parts of being the person who
• 15:40
  could power through, literally everything, such as you are
• 15:43
  perceived as an Angry asshole, a lot, or is somebody with no
• 15:46
  empathy and the other person frequently does not and you can
• 15:50
  see this other person, by the way, with how the guys who
• 15:54
  identify as being very unsuccessful with women.
• 15:57
  Have this term Chad for men who are more of the asshole, Alpha
• 16:01
  type, and they can't understand those guys and can't have any
• 16:05
  empathy for those guys. Like, as soon as the guys like
• 16:08
  that an athlete or or a, you know, a high earner or
• 16:13
  good-looking or like You think then these more anxious passive
• 16:17
  guys who perceive that they have always been victimized and that
• 16:21
  their role in life is to be a victim.
• 16:23
  They cannot even understand that.
• 16:25
  Those guys would have any trouble at all.
• 16:27
  They're like, oh well, I'd what's your trouble, you know,
• 16:29
  you're too many one-night stands with too many hot women.
• 16:32
  Fuck you. Like that's how they feel.
• 16:33
  Whereas that guy who's having too many hot one-night, stands
• 16:36
  could have like fucking addiction issues.
• 16:38
  He could have like terrible anger issues.
• 16:41
  He could be unable to love me like you.
• 16:43
  Do you know his kids could fucking hate him, you know?
• 16:46
  I mean there could be all sorts of problems can have financial
• 16:49
  problems. They could have a million
• 16:50
  problems but it's like the guy who's anxious around his
• 16:54
  performance with women and the fact of whether he'll be loved
• 16:57
  or any of this will not even like empathize with that at all,
• 17:01
  because they feel like, if you just didn't, if they just could
• 17:04
  hack their, their anxiety issue, then everything would be fine.
• 17:08
  But it wouldn't because these are two sides of the same coin,
• 17:11
  these are how two different types of personalities.
• 17:14
  Respond to not being able to trust a caregiver to be that
• 17:18
  balance that leads to secure attachment of a parent that
• 17:21
  gives you comfort but also allows you to explore a parent.
• 17:24
  That is a secure base from which you can explore the world but
• 17:28
  also return for Comfort if you did not receive those two things
• 17:32
  that make a what winnicott calls a quote, good enough parent, the
• 17:37
  ability to allow the child to explore but also to give Comfort
• 17:40
  contingently when the child wants comfort, then you are in
• 17:44
  securely attached and this can go beyond attachment into
• 17:48
  general anxiety. / victims /, very scared shrinking view of
• 17:55
  your role in the world, or this more aggressive style.
• 17:59
  That gets its needs met no matter what.
• 18:02
  But yet finds it, extremely hard to connect, vulnerably to other
• 18:06
  people, and both of these guys, tend to have interpersonal
• 18:09
  problems with women, right within, Intimate Relationships,
• 18:13
  the woman. Always feels like her role is
• 18:17
  and she's no picnic either because, you know, it's like you
• 18:20
  as I've discussed in Myriad times you choose what makes
• 18:23
  sense to you. So, the victimized guys, going
• 18:25
  to choose a woman who victimized as him, you know, pretty much
• 18:28
  the ball buster that I described, you know, earlier and
• 18:32
  the guy who is, you know, mr. Asshole is going to choose a
• 18:36
  woman that perceives herself as to, you know, weak and soft and
• 18:40
  needing too much comfort, which then he's going to look down,
• 18:43
  right? So I mean it's like goes to like
• 18:45
  here. It's very yin and yang.
• 18:47
  What people tend to pick, hopefully, with time age
• 18:50
  therapy, Etc. People can grow more securely
• 18:53
  attached, and then pick a more securely attached partner.
• 18:56
  That does not continue re-traumatizing them such that.
• 18:59
  They both have to remain in these same rules, right?
• 19:01
  Which brings me to the fact that if this did resonate with you,
• 19:04
  on either end of the spectrum, then therapy can really help.
• 19:07
  You see how you are perpetuating.
• 19:10
  These dysfunctional, you know, assumptions and expectations.
• 19:14
  It is about relationships and how to incrementally test being
• 19:18
  more, you know, in touch with the other side of yourself for
• 19:23
  the asshole, it's the more vulnerable side and for the
• 19:26
  scaredy-cat, it's the more Alpha side.
• 19:29
  You got to kind of integrate these aspects of your character.
• 19:32
  But if you, if you picked one as your default mechanism to get
• 19:36
  through the world as a child, where it was very adaptive, then
• 19:41
  now it can be very difficult to see that within you, you Could
• 19:44
  you do as everybody does have all of these sides, you know,
• 19:49
  like you everybody has a strong side, everybody has a side that
• 19:53
  can power through things, some people just don't believe it and
• 19:56
  everybody has a side that wants to be taken care of and loved.
• 19:59
  You know, and for these asshole, guys, sometimes it only comes
• 20:02
  out in the bedroom but if it's only in the bedroom that they
• 20:05
  can ever be vulnerable, then the woman just thinks it's all about
• 20:08
  sex and she's within her rights to think it because you never
• 20:12
  seems vulnerable. Or even in need of love in any
• 20:16
  other way. And so, then she does feel used
• 20:19
  for sex then she should write because that's real.
• 20:22
  I mean, if if the only time that a man can let his guard down, is
• 20:27
  in the bedroom, then eventually, the woman does not really, she's
• 20:31
  not emotionally invested anymore because she wants to be close
• 20:35
  everywhere outside of the bedroom as well.
• 20:37
  And that's what those kind of guys.
• 20:38
  Struggle with. But you know what?
• 20:39
  The other guy struggle with it, too, because they're asking for
• 20:42
  too much reassurance, These are the guys who say no no women
• 20:45
  don't like emotional men. Something that I did a podcast
• 20:48
  about know. They don't like men who are
• 20:50
  always whining. Like you don't love me today.
• 20:51
  Why don't you love me? Why are you looking at that
• 20:53
  other guy, three weekends ago when we went to the festival?
• 20:57
  That's not sharing your emotions.
• 20:58
  You know, I'll be that that. Yeah, sharing some emotions but
• 21:01
  it's only the bad ones. Only the ones that are guilt
• 21:03
  tripping and and anxious. So yeah, those are the only
• 21:07
  emotions you share. It's not going to work so
• 21:08
  therapy can help you figure out how to access all the parts of
• 21:12
  yourself, all the parts of your Elin identity.
• 21:15
  Not just the ones that are the Persona that you chose to to
• 21:20
  very adaptively. Get through a dysfunctional
• 21:22
  childhood there was made sense then but they don't make as much
• 21:27
  sense now. And frequently undermine the
• 21:29
  ability to connect closely and authentically to a spouse.
• 21:33
  All right, I hope this was useful to you guys and I will
• 21:35
  talk to you soon. Bye, bye.