Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / The Empathic Rupture Of Never Getting To Stay Home With Kids

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The Empathic Rupture Of Never Getting To Stay Home With Kids · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody, and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
• 0:08
  Today we're going to talk about what I call the empathic rupture
• 0:13
  of not getting to stay home with kids.
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  And we will get into who I see this happen to, Why, What to do
• 0:22
  about it, how to understand it. It's a big topic, right?
• 0:26
  As soon as I tell you to subscribe, Most recent
• 0:28
  subscriber episode was every night feels like a sleepover
• 0:31
  when you marry your best friend. And why that's bullshit,
• 0:34
  garbage. And even though you could see
• 0:37
  that quote on TikTok, it just it's perpetuates this intimacy
• 0:42
  porn, hyper idealized, overly romanticized view of
• 0:46
  relationships that is completely impossible.
• 0:50
  OK, anyway, back to the the topic at hand.
• 0:54
  So I work with a lot of couples, obviously in my private
• 0:56
  practice. As always, you can reach out to
• 0:59
  me if you want to work with me for therapy or for relationship
• 1:02
  coaching. Doctor, psych, mom.com, all the
• 1:06
  info. But anyway, so I work with a lot
• 1:10
  of people. They're at all different stages.
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  So a lot of women really idealize the idea of staying
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  home with kids. Their mother either stayed home
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  with them and they thought that that was good.
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  And in their family that was thought of as something very
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  good and something that the mother really liked.
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  And that was good for the children.
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  And the mother cooked for them and and did little activities
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  with them and took them to their, you know, the library and
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  the pool and whatever they did. And in some families, the mother
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  never got to stay home with kids, and it was the central
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  trauma of her life or one of them.
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  And so then, of course, the little girl thought that, you
• 1:44
  know, she would change and she would get to stay home with kids
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  because her, her life would be better than her mother's.
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  And her mother may have even said that you should stay home
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  with kids. And I'd always be running around
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  like me. I miss so many events.
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  I miss everything. I'm exhausted, et cetera, et
• 1:59
  cetera. Right.
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  So it could either be because the girl wants to do what her
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  mother did, or she wants to fix what her mother was not able to
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  do in her own life. And so, however, I've mentioned
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  this many times, and it's important for men to realize
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  this, women are told both that they're going to have a career
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  and that they're going to be a mommy.
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  And you kind of don't really have any idea how to do those
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  things unless you see a woman successfully juggling.
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  Those many people. Don't they say, see either a
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  very harried woman who has to work all the time and and
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  regrets not, you know, being able to come to your events or a
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  woman who stays at home and may wish that she had been able to
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  have a career. So if you see either of those
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  two types of people that have regrets, which is classic for
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  people in dysfunctional families where there's a lot of
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  depression and anxiety and there's also a lot of regrets
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  voiced. So you don't really know how
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  you're supposed to do it, right? You don't know how you're
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  supposed to, like, do both things.
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  And many people do not have jobs where that is an option to,
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  like, go part time or something like that.
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  So a woman that was totally happy working can get to a
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  complete crossroads when she has a baby.
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  And then it's like all of a sudden she doesn't want to go
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  back from maternity leave because she likes to be with the
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  baby. And all of these other impulses
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  kick in. And all of the script that she
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  got from, you know, the time that she was young about that
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  she should stay home with kids or that that would be better,
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  all of that stuff activates and it was basically dormant in her
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  subconscious and she had no idea and she assumed she would be
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  fine going back after kids. But, you know, but she isn't.
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  Or she thought that her husband would assume that she would not
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  go back even without them really discussing it at all, because he
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  would assume that of course she was going to stay home with kids
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  once they had kids. People talk about so few things
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  and that is what I really try to work against in my career.
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  I try to really amplify and emphasize constantly the
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  importance of honesty and open communication.
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  And it's not like these women aren't being honest.
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  Many people do not, are not honest with themselves.
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  They do not scan themselves for what they feel or what they
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  think at all. So they have no idea, you know?
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  So the the point is, is that you got to really realize before
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  because this is like the honeymoon stage bait and switch
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  thing where guys think that, like, women are like, oh, I know
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  what I'll do. I'll I'll fake a high sex drive
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  for three years and then it'll just plummet and then he'll be
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  mad at me all the time. Yes, like, awesome.
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  I'm going to do it. You know that.
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  That's bullshit. As I talk about in my popular
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  episode, The Honeymoon Stage, Why there's no bait and switch.
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  That's a subscriber episode. But anyway, so women aren't
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  like, Oh my God, you know what I'm going to do?
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  What I'm going to do is I'm going to have a baby, and then
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  I'm going to be completely blindsided by the desire to stay
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  home. And I'm going to tell that to
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  him and it's going to ruin my marriage.
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  Oh, great idea. No, like, they people don't even
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  think. People don't even know what they
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  don't know. This is why therapy is so good,
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  right? Because somebody's finally
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  asking you about, like, what you think and what you feel so you
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  can you can figure it out, you know?
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  So a lot of women don't even know how they feel about this
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  topic, right until they start to talk about it and to think about
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  it. So and therapy helps you not get
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  blindsided because you've already started to think about
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  some of this stuff and talk about it.
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  But anyway, so the point is, is that these women that I'm
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  talking about here, they realize that.
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  Some of them realize on maternity leave, oh shit, I
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  don't want to go back. And some of them say it, some of
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  them don't, out of the ones that do.
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  And this is where the empathic rupture part comes in.
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  A lot of them say it. And the guy says, what are you
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  talking about? You're joking, right?
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  Because we still have all these bills.
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  We didn't talk about this. Like, what do you mean we just
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  bought a house? What do you mean?
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  Like, what are you talking about?
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  We're not going to go back to work.
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  What, are you crazy? And the woman's like, oh, yeah,
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  you know, I guess I am. I guess, of course I'll go back.
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  I guess I was just saying, what if I didn't have to?
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  Because she feels, like embarrassed and ashamed of that
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  she should say something so quote crazy and so quote
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  financially irresponsible. And many women, as I've
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  discussed, deferred to the man on finances and are very scared
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  of anything related to money. So they just hand over the
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  financial reins to the guy. And the point being is, you
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  know, that's not always very smart because in reality what
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  the woman wants to say there, but she doesn't have the balls
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  to say it, you know, is I do not care about the money.
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  I'm, I'm happy to downsize the house, but I just want to stay
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  home with the baby because now that I've had the baby, it's a
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  transformational moment that I realize I'm basically in the
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  honeymoon stage with the baby. You know, I'm in love with the
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  baby and I have and that's totally normal and that's why
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  our species perpetuates and that's why people have new
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  babies, by the way. So that's completely normal.
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  And I even have a post called If your wife has a physical love
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  language, it will be redirected at the baby because she's in
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  love with the baby. So that's why some women just
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  keep having baby after baby after baby.
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  They're love addicts but for babies.
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  And all women that love babies are a little bit like that.
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  But most healthy people could be like okay.
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  I've had enough babies. Now I have to move on to a
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  different stage in my life. But but anyway, the point is, is
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  that you understand of course if you're listening, that there is
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  an evolutionary reason for this, which is to make babies.
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  That's the point of our of our species is to procreate itself.
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  And so women fall in love with babies, men fall in love with
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  women, women fall in love with babies.
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  I mean that's true. That's why our species
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  perpetuates itself. That's why I have a post called
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  Men need to love their wives as much as their wives love the
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  kids. But anyway, point being that
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  later in life when the woman changes and she grows more
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  confident and more self aware and she says why have I been
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  such a people pleaser and her estrogen drops.
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  As I've talked about a myriad times in podcast, such as what
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  aging feels like for women and how women's bodies and brains
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  change in their 40s and perimenopause and benefits of
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  perimenopause. Oh, all of these different
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  things that I've written about, rather spoken about.
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  And also I have posts about it, how women change in their 40s.
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  The point is, is they go back and they're like, hey, I did say
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  it. I said I wanted to stay home
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  with the baby and he said no. And now I never got to and I'm
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  grieving it and it's a loss. And now I realize with the
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  benefit of hindsight that there was only one time in my life
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  when I could have stayed home with the baby and done what I
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  wanted to do and raised him differently.
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  And now that he's an asshole teenager, I feel like maybe it
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  all could have changed in that toddler phase.
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  If I would have gone to some more library story times and
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  fuck my husband for not understanding me.
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  I'm what was important to me. So while of course this anger is
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  understandable, it's also misdirected.
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  Because in reality their dynamic was such at the time that she
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  walked it back and he was financially terrified and faced
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  with what he thought was an extreme, irrational decision.
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  Like many of her decisions in the postpartum phase, motivated
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  by anxiety or PPD or what have you.
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  And that she was going to come to her senses and she can't seem
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  to come to her senses after she went back to work.
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  Many Sometimes she was happy at work, sometimes she very much
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  wasn't happy at work. But either way she didn't make
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  it a a a line in the sand kind of an issue.
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  Men usually think that if a woman really wanted something
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  bad, she would draw a line in the sand and say something like
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  I will leave you if you do not figure out a way for me to stay
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  home with the baby. But most people don't talk or
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  think like that. Certainly a woman that's
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  vulnerable and young, that just had a baby isn't going to think
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  about leaving the father of the baby.
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  That's not a thing that that seems extremely risky.
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  And it's not even where her mind would go at all.
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  So she wouldn't really draw a line in the sand.
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  She would just kind of go back and agree.
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  Is it his fault? No.
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  Is it her fault? No.
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  It's nobody's fault. It's a loss.
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  It's a loss that she can grieve. Could it have gone differently?
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  Maybe if most women, if they did say I refuse to go back.
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  I'm miserable at work and it is my life's work to stay home with
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  the baby, I now realize. And we can also get rid of the
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  house and this and that. Yeah, most healthy men would
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  say, OK, this is a fucking change to the plans that I
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  wasn't aware of, but I guess I'll have to accommodate it.
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  Maybe it's good for you to stay home with the baby.
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  However, let's not put women on a pedestal either because many
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  of them don't want to get the smaller house too, because that
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  was part of what they thought about.
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  It's not raising the baby in an apartment, It's raising the baby
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  in a nice big house and being able to go on vacation.
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  And also they got to take the baby to, you know, the splash in
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  the pool. And you know, that means baby
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  swim lessons. Baby swim lessons are like, no,
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  you know they're not free and and everything costs money.
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  So many women are like, I don't really know.
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  Now I have never seen a woman in my office say what I'm really
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  mad about is that that motherfucker didn't get a second
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  job. No, nobody says that.
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  What they say like I mean it's it's like it would be funny if
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  somebody tried to say that to me but in reality and they don't
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  say and I wish that he had been more financially successful.
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  Here's here's the caveat to that though.
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  There are someone that don't work and that decide that they
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  in fact are going to be the stay at home dad because your wife
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  has more earning power. And this one, this does not go
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  well. In later life if the woman ends
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  up regretting that she did not stay home with the baby because
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  she not only did she not stay home with the baby, but he
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  stayed home with the baby and then she's really jealous of
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  that. And did she usually verbalize
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  that? No.
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  These are the women that have to listen to my podcast, Why Men
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  Never Take Care of You because they were the financially
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  terrified ones. And they they were the ones that
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  didn't want to rock the boat. And they were the ones that
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  said, I guess, yeah, because I have an advanced degree and you
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  don't, then I guess I should continue to work and you
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  shouldn't. And I guess it's good that you
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  could stay home with the baby. But their resentment mounted and
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  mounted and mounted. And they tried to suck it up and
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  suck it up and suck it up. But then in midlife, as I've
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  discussed, your priorities change, your view, change your
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  hormones, change your age changes, all these things
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  change. And many women are like, I wish
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  I would have had that time, not you.
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  And I hate myself for not being confident and courageous enough
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  to say that. So that is the situation.
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  In the other situation, many times women are very mad only at
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  themselves because the guy wasn't home with the kid, right?
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  They're mad at themselves for not having been more vocal about
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  this desire. And of course, in with the
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  fullness of time, they realize that the couple of years that
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  they worked wasn't really that essential.
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  Had they taken off a couple of years, they would still pretty
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  much financially be where they're at now.
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  But it never seems like that at the time, of course.
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  Of course at the time, people are motivated by financial
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  anxiety. They have to pay off their
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  loans, their mortgage, all of these different things and the
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  fullness of time. When you're 45, looking back,
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  you say, oh, I guess I could have taken off a couple years,
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  but nobody feels like that or very few people feel like that
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  at the time. I mean, certainly some people
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  feel like that at the time and those people take off.
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  And I'm talking about people in the situation that I'm talking
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  about. So how do you get out ahead of
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  this? Well, if you're a couple where
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  there's still the possibility of her staying home with kids, have
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  an open and honest discussion about whether this is something
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  she's super values and if she's made any illusions to it at all.
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  And then how you guys could make it work with everybody having to
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  compromise then. Because of course there's no
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  free lunch, Say it with me, right.
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  But what if it is over? What if that time of life is
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  over and the children are older? Well, then that that is the sort
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  of thing where you have to have a reparative conversation.
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  I said a reparative to repair. And and that means each person
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  really kind of acknowledging, validating and empathizing with
• 13:51
  the other person's perspective and talking about these as you
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  would, you know, talk about any other empathic rupture.
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  I have a podcast on empathic rupture, specifically that you
• 14:01
  could search. But the point is, is that both
• 14:03
  partners would have to verbalize really clearly what they felt
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  and the other person would have to really acknowledge it and sit
• 14:10
  with it and not try to defend. Or like the woman saying, you
• 14:14
  know what? I realized?
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  The deepest regret in my life is that I didn't stay home with
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  kids. And many guys feel absolutely
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  shocked and hurt, like scared and and ashamed and like, you
• 14:25
  know, she's saying that he was like a terrible provider or like
• 14:28
  ruined her life. And so immediately they get
• 14:30
  super defensive and they're like, you didn't say anything.
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  You didn't say that because what I remember is you really liked,
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  you know, why got you a Range Rover, you know, and and then we
• 14:39
  went to Europe and and, you know, you don't want to give
• 14:41
  that stuff up, Did you now? And it's like, that's not a
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  response that helps anybody you know.
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  And and it also was not helpful for a woman in this situation to
• 14:52
  say to the guy, well, you should have known.
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  You know, I brought it up and you should have known.
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  And this is because you're a narcissist, you know, like your
• 14:59
  mother. And so whenever I say anything,
• 15:02
  you steamroll right over me. And you just should have known
• 15:05
  after I brought it up once, you know.
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  Or twice. Well, how the hell should you,
• 15:09
  you know how much shit you bring up.
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  You know, I mean in a day. I mean never mind months, years.
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  So obviously he he didn't know. You know, I'll, I'll just tell
• 15:19
  you 100% he did not know as much as you think he knew, because
• 15:23
  that's every couple. Nobody knows as much as the
• 15:26
  other person thinks they do about their internal workings.
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  So you could have a useful, useful conversation about this
• 15:32
  where you try deeply to understand each other.
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  And then some people are in a strange situation where they
• 15:36
  could kind of stay home for a little bit, even with kids who
• 15:39
  are like in elementary school or even later.
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  And somehow this can make up for it, because then they could be
• 15:45
  around to do all of the pickups and all of the activities and
• 15:49
  they wouldn't have to, you know, kill themselves getting from
• 15:51
  work to this to that, to the other.
• 15:53
  And some people can then make it right later on.
• 15:56
  So she never got to stay home with a baby.
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  And that is a sad thing, you know, and was due to many
• 16:01
  misunderstandings on both parts, as I've said.
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  But also now she can. And so people could talk about
• 16:07
  that and the way to move forward with that as somewhat of a
• 16:09
  compromise because nobody gets everything that they want.
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  But of course, people also shouldn't get nothing that they
• 16:14
  want, All right? So hopefully you guys found this
• 16:18
  to be, like an interesting topic and I would really intrigue you.
• 16:22
  This is a good one to share with your partner.
• 16:25
  This really is if this is your topic and you can't really talk
• 16:28
  about this openly, then this is particularly a good one to
• 16:32
  share. Nobody really gets blamed.
• 16:34
  Everybody's equally kind of a fault.
• 16:37
  Ish, you know, But really nobody's at fault.
• 16:40
  But everybody's at fault. So it's like one of those good
• 16:42
  ones where it's like nobody's worse than anybody else, you
• 16:44
  know? And it's a topic that kind of
• 16:47
  has to be resolved, if it's a big one in the woman's mind,
• 16:50
  because it's the cause of a lot of grief, regret and sadness
• 16:53
  that sometimes, as I've discussed, gets taken out on the
• 16:56
  guy because she thinks he should have known more than he knew as
• 17:00
  like a guy of 28 years old or something like that.
• 17:02
  All right, I hope you guys enjoyed this and I will talk to
• 17:05
  you all soon. Have a great day.