Latest / Adult Child of Dysfunction / E 343: Why You Keep Repeating the Same Unhealthy Patterns: Guest: Aaron Gilbert

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E 343: Why You Keep Repeating the Same Unhealthy Patterns: Guest: Aaron Gilbert · Adult Child of Dysfunction

• 0:02
  Well, hello everybody.
• 0:03
  Welcome back to another, an episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.
• 0:06
  Today we have with us Aaron Gilbert.
• 0:08
  He's a licensed psychotherapist with 30 more, plus years of experience, and founder of the Boston Evening Therapy Associates.
• 0:16
  He specializes anxiety, trauma, and behavior change, blending cognitive, solution-focused, and strengths-based approaches to help people build self-acceptance, clarity, and a stronger sense of purpose in their lives.
• 0:30
  Welcome, Aaron.
• 0:35
  Hi, Tammy.
• 0:35
  Thanks.
• 0:35
  Nice to be with you.
• 0:36
  Yeah, thank you.
• 0:36
  So yeah, couldn't we all use some self-acceptance, clarity, and a stronger sense of purpose?
• 0:41
  Yeah.
• 0:41
  not a bad combination, yeah.
• 0:44
  being that you're on a podcast called Adult Child of Dysfunction, you can probably surmise that most of the conversations we've had on this is how to heal from that past trauma, the things that were kind of embedded into
• 0:59
  your brain while you were a child, before you really had any autonomy or could really make your own decisions or process your own thoughts even.
• 1:10
  I'm gonna just jump right in and start asking some questions, and I wanna talk about the kinda default story that adult or the adult children of alcoholics or adult children of dysfunctional families have.
• 1:21
  How does that default, how do you look at that default story as kind of coming about?
• 1:28
  Yeah, it's a great way of putting it, a default story, because when you, think about a default story, it is something that is sort of, that just absolutely goes unchallenged, right?
• 1:39
  It's sort of like, we, assume a truth, because we've always thought of it as the truth, and it, there's no point in even thinking of an alternative way of, seeing things.
• 1:51
  So, I think the way you introduced it makes a lot of sense, that as a child, we are largely helpless, and the, influence that we get from adults is the truth.
• 2:07
  That's what it is.
• 2:08
  That, and as, crazy as it might be, as, dysfunctional or counterproductive or unhealthy, it, gets internalized as that's the way things are.
• 2:18
  And, as we grow older, in other phases of our life, we see that, wow, there's actually many ways of doing things.
• 2:25
  There's actually many directions, many paths that a person can take, and I have, autonomy, I have choice.
• 2:33
  But somehow that, and that might apply for a person for things like career or things like, their social life or their interests, but there remains this very fundamental kind of view of self, view of relationships perhaps, that is
• 2:54
  just frozen in, childhood.
• 2:58
  Absolutely.
• 2:59
  Yeah.
• 2:59
  And I, look at the situations where, say, somebody has this, like, this default story, you could say, going in, and like you said, it was all kind of built when you didn't have that choice or you, didn't have
• 3:12
  that reasoning.
• 3:13
  A lot of people will talk about those years from, like, birth to seven years old where you're kind of in this semi-hypnotic, kind of just suggestionable stage, and so you're reading everything around you, right?
• 3:25
  You're reading people's tones and their voice and how they act and how they touch you and, you're reading all of this, and you're getting these messages.
• 3:33
  But I've also heard people say, and this kind of of where my work kind of stems from too is that when you are young, you we are one of the species that really, depends on our caregivers.
• 3:45
  Like, we can't come out at birth and survive.
• 3:48
  It's just not feasible.
• 3:50
  It just can't happen.
• 3:51
  So in our minds, we internalize that because we would rather internalize it for safety and for survival than to ever think that our caregivers were wrong or that they were doing something.
• 4:06
  What do you think about that theory?
• 4:09
  I think that makes a lot of sense.
• 4:10
  it's true.
• 4:11
  it's very, it's fascinating.
• 4:13
  You know, you get me thinking about just sort of the biology of the human being.
• 4:17
  I mean, we have to be born, you know, our, brains are so large relatively so that we have to be born, relatively early in our development.
• 4:28
  and it's true, we are completely vulnerable.
• 4:33
  you look at other, animals, so soon after birth they're up on their feet and they're acting vaguely independently.
• 4:41
  It's completely different for a human being.
• 4:44
  So you're right, the survival instinct, is going to trump, you know, any other, The physical survival instinct is gonna trump anything else, including sort of the, emotional integrity and health and wellbeing.
• 5:01
  You know, you have to first rule is stay alive, and you, were reliant on the caregiver.
• 5:07
  right.
• 5:07
  We need, we're going to internalize.
• 5:10
  That's the source of our physical security.
• 5:12
  That's the source of our staying alive.
• 5:15
  So it would be crazy to reject, that, individual, for, any reason.
• 5:23
  Tammy, that's I had not thought of it quite exactly that way, but that makes, that's, that sounds very true.
• 5:30
  Yeah.
• 5:30
  I mean, it all, to me, it makes sense.
• 5:31
  It, and I've always kind of thought that way.
• 5:34
  It's like, okay, your parents are not taking care of you, and you know you need that, so you're doing everything you can to...
• 5:42
  That's why these people, we, you know, we gather these tendencies of people pleasing and, and being submissive and not voicing just to keep ourselves safe so that those people could potentially wanna take care of us.
• 5:55
  You know?
• 5:55
  I don't, it is amazing how the human brain works, and even the fact that we, I know you probably deal with a lot of people that are taking these old patterns, moving into adulthood, and trying to untangle them
• 6:08
  as to, but it's like being a therapist, you use the brain, you use the science, you use all of it kind of in a mesh together.
• 6:18
  But what would you say to people if they asked you the difference about what the difference was between understanding your trauma and healing from your trauma?
• 6:28
  Because I know I just listened to an episode that you did on a different podcast, and you were talking about therapy and, trauma and why people go to therapy and what's, you know, the pros and cons and things
• 6:38
  like that.
• 6:39
  But what would you give as that answer, the difference between understanding and actually healing from your trauma?
• 6:46
  Hmm.
• 6:49
  Well, I think that, a little bit linked.
• 6:54
  know what you mean by the difference.
• 6:56
  It's very important.
• 6:58
  But I would say that we don't really understand our trauma until we can also imagine, some difference, some alternative.
• 7:10
  A part of understanding our trauma, I think, has to be also a curiosity, an imagination that things could be different also.
• 7:21
  I don't think that we really truly understand our trauma if we don't have that curiosity about an alternative or a difference, or could there be some different way of experiencing myself and my life, then we still have not
• 7:36
  fully understood, the trauma.
• 7:39
  think they work together.
• 7:42
  I think the healing comes from, at least in therapy, I think it can happen many ways.
• 7:46
  It doesn't have to happen through therapy by any means.
• 7:50
  but the healing in therapy comes through the magic of, of a client, a person feeling fully and completely heard, their story, to, feel that they're, they're able to tell their story to a person they trust, and to, feel
• 8:12
  confidence that they have been deeply heard and understood and listened to in a, way, in a, from a stance of great curiosity, but also from a non-judgmental stance.
• 8:25
  I think that- When you listen to me describing that, that might sound, well, what does the therapist do?
• 8:32
  I mean, that sounds like it's just the person telling their story.
• 8:35
  What's the big deal?
• 8:36
  And I get that, or I, would, would understand if a person saw it that way, for sure.
• 8:42
  But what makes the, difference is that it's such a rare experience.
• 8:48
  I mean, just think of our regular lives.
• 8:50
  How often do we have the chance to feel that we can tell something important about ourselves to somebody, in which the other person really gets it, is non-judgmental, and then doesn't turn around and make it about themselves.
• 9:08
  You know?
• 9:09
  Like, "Oh, yeah, that's really interesting.
• 9:10
  You know, the same thing happened to me," and I was, you know...
• 9:14
  And now we're talking about them.
• 9:15
  The one-uppers.
• 9:15
  Yeah, it's the one-uppers.
• 9:16
  Yeah, yeah.
• 9:16
  I always say that, like, you, finally get the courage, I can remember this years ago, when I would finally get the courage to be like, "Oh my gosh, this happened to me," and like finally get the guts to
• 9:26
  come out and say it, and somebody would be like, "Oh, yeah, when I was four," blah, blah, blah.
• 9:30
  And I'd be like- Yeah "Okay, so I guess I wasn't as bad as I thought it was."
• 9:37
  Well, we were talking about me a minute ago.
• 9:39
  Now we're talking about you.
• 9:40
  Okay.
• 9:41
  All right.
• 9:41
  You know, so that, what I mean, is the, sanctity, the, rarity of, that dynamic is where the healing, happens, I think, in therapy.
• 9:54
  Because then a person is safe to ask questions, too.
• 10:01
  You know?
• 10:01
  Like, does that sound, like, why, you know, am I seeing, the world that way?
• 10:08
  Why am I seeing myself that way?
• 10:10
  I mean, and then and the underlying question to that, even if it's unstated, is, is it possible to do this differently?
• 10:19
  Is it possible to experience this differently?
• 10:22
  And I think that's the, healing process in, good therapy.
• 10:28
  Yeah.
• 10:28
  Right.
• 10:29
  And I think, you know, a lot of people, you hear people say, well, and I, a perfect example of it.
• 10:34
  I went to therapy for many years, and I was like, "Okay, there's just something still missing."
• 10:39
  And so when I tried other things, it was always good to kind of consolidate different things together.
• 10:44
  So, and when I say different, when I say therapy, I mean traditional psychotherapy, like talk therapy.
• 10:51
  But- It wasn't, I but I always say there's always that basis.
• 10:56
  Like, the therapist is always, like, your grounding point, and then you can grab all these other things.
• 11:01
  You can grab, like, working the body into it.
• 11:03
  You can grab, like, all this different stuff, but it's the, therapist is your sounding...
• 11:08
  No, I don't wanna say your sounding board, but your, main platform, I guess you could say.
• 11:12
  That's the way I've kind of, looked at it, because I did.
• 11:15
  I was like, and I have people do that to me all the time, but they'll say, "I've, done this and this and this and this and that."
• 11:22
  And I'm like, "Okay, so let's put it all together.
• 11:24
  Like, when you went to your therapist, how did that, like, how did that work for you?
• 11:28
  How did...
• 11:29
  You know, let's, figure out where the blockage is and just add little tweaks, little pieces."
• 11:34
  And, but you're right.
• 11:36
  If you've been, if you go to a good therapist, there's nothing like it.
• 11:40
  Nothing like it.
• 11:41
  And you do.
• 11:41
  It's that safe container of being able to say what you need to say and get non-judgmental feedback and curiosity instigating- Mm-hmm questions, I guess you could say, to where you have to be curious.
• 11:58
  Yeah, that's why the the non-judgmental and curiosity have to be equally powerful, because, you know, I, think, you know, the, wrap, the on therapists or that sort of traditional kind of, it called?
• 12:11
  negative spin that people put on therapy is like, "Oh, yeah, I know," just like, "Oh, and how does that make you feel?"
• 12:17
  You know?
• 12:17
  And which is sort of non-judgmental, but also not very curious.
• 12:22
  You know, you have to be- What's going on here?
• 12:26
  Wow.
• 12:26
  And how, does, how did that happen?
• 12:29
  And, you know, right there with the person, while maintaining that non-judgmental.
• 12:35
  And that, I think, is what builds rapport, builds connection, builds trust, and that's the, the fertile soil from which healing grows.
• 12:46
  And I also like what you said very much about it being a foundation point, not the total.
• 12:52
  It's just a You know, the therapist might bring up certain ideas that then the person develops on their own.
• 13:00
  You know, like, what do you feel in your body, for example?
• 13:03
  Right.
• 13:03
  Where in your body does this stress land?
• 13:08
  you know, what do you notice about your energy through the course of a day?
• 13:13
  And this can lead to curiosity about all kinds of things, about, mindfulness, about meditation, about being aware of your body, about your physical self, how your physical self integrates in, with your emotional and mental self.
• 13:29
  beginning to kind of look for a full menu of ways to heal.
• 13:34
  Yep.
• 13:35
  trauma is a, it's a big deal, and, we wanna use all the resources available to us.
• 13:42
  Yeah.
• 13:43
  Absolutely.
• 13:44
  So when people are coming to you, or theoretically, you know, you, I'm just saying a therapist, a psychotherapist, and they are having all of these underlying unhealthy patterns and they're saying, "I know what to do logically.
• 13:58
  I know what to do," and that's the biggest thing you hear.
• 14:00
  Like, I've read the books.
• 14:02
  I shelf health books.
• 14:03
  We've all read the books, the personal growth and everything else, and they know logically what should be happening.
• 14:10
  How do you open that up with them to explore the fact that there is...
• 14:16
  I, don't know.
• 14:16
  How do you open that up with them if that's their starting point?
• 14:19
  'Cause that is so, for the people that are on this podcast listening, that so often is the starting point.
• 14:24
  They've done all, they quote unquote done everything.
• 14:27
  Logically they know how they should be feeling, but, and they know they shouldn't be having these patterns.
• 14:33
  How do, stop that?
• 14:41
  I know, big question.
• 14:42
  Yeah.
• 14:44
  It's, a big question.
• 14:45
  Okay, let me rephrase it.
• 14:47
  Yeah, yeah.
• 14:47
  Why do you think so many people repeat the unhealthy problems or patterns when they know better?
• 14:58
  Yeah, I guess, the reason I'm pausing is because I'm, sort of wondering what you mean by they know what to do, or they logically...
• 15:06
  I guess I would be, first want to know what that means, what their logic is telling them they need to do.
• 15:12
  You know?
• 15:12
  How, they, what, what they mean by they know what to do.
• 15:16
  You know?
• 15:16
  They do- Okay, so I'm gonna give you an example.
• 15:18
  Can I give you an example- Mm-hmm and then you can maybe work from there?
• 15:22
  So you are somebody that grew up in complete dysfunction.
• 15:26
  Your mother was a complete narcissist or whatever it was, and now everybody you meet, you're attracted by, whatever it is, the universe or whatever it is brings you to these people, and all of these red flags are going
• 15:38
  off.
• 15:39
  Like, "Ooh, I shouldn't be with this person.
• 15:40
  Ooh, this is that.
• 15:41
  Ooh, this is that.
• 15:41
  Ooh, this is that," but you still do it even though your gut, your soul, everything in you is telling you, "This is wrong."
• 15:48
  Why do you still do it?
• 15:50
  Okay.
• 15:51
  Okay, thank you.
• 15:52
  That's, great.
• 15:53
  Yeah, and I, let me...
• 15:56
  That is, is very interesting, especially the, the context of, like, relationships and, recurring, destructive relationships.
• 16:06
  first thing that would come to mind for me in that particular case is, well, why are we looking for this, resolution in other people, in another person?
• 16:21
  You know, I, have to say, get off point just a little bit or just, to make a point.
• 16:28
  You know, I see a lot of requests coming in for couples therapy, and I'll read the initial kind of the, reasonings for why we need to be in couples therapy, and I, more than half the time I'm seeing,
• 16:44
  you know, I think individual therapy would be better here.
• 16:47
  You know?
• 16:47
  I think that this is, you know, we're, sort of, I think very often what happens in those situations that you described is that we're, imagining that, another, a connection with another person can be healing to us.
• 17:03
  You know?
• 17:04
  That we, need, we, we need another person to help resolve some of these things, and I think I would start with- Let's, step away from that entirely.
• 17:21
  Let's imagine that you don't have a relationship.
• 17:25
  Let's even be kind of, you know, extreme about it.
• 17:30
  What if you never had a relationship?
• 17:33
  You know what?
• 17:34
  You still need, deserve, and want to feel emotionally well, and obviously the most important relationship is the one you have with yourself.
• 17:50
  Let's work on that relationship.
• 17:53
  I know it's painful to kind of, you know, there's all kinds of concomitant kind of, feelings that come along with not being in a relationship, or it can be scary to, like, even entertain the idea of, like, what
• 18:05
  if I was never in a relationship?
• 18:08
  But I sometimes think that's important to do because what that says is, yeah, that's nice, but what really we're not gonna sacrifice is your wellbeing.
• 18:23
  You know, I often think of a relationship, a good, healthy relationship, even a great relationship, I, Maybe people don't agree with me, but to me, that can be a great enhancer to an to an already good, experience of
• 18:41
  life.
• 18:42
  That can be a great spice, a great, you know, accompaniment to a great meal, but it is not the substance.
• 18:53
  You are the substance.
• 18:55
  You are the, nutrition has to be gotten from within you.
• 19:01
  And, that's where I would start with that.
• 19:04
  So that probably goes in- Does that make Yes, it does, and thank you for that.
• 19:06
  And that probably goes into more about, like, what you, you talk a lot about self-acceptance and self-love, and I know the old expression, you can't love somebody else until you love yourself.
• 19:16
  And, you know, there's all those, like, cliche, like, you know, phrases, those things going around.
• 19:22
  But that makes sense.
• 19:23
  So if you are not at that point where you don't have that great relationship with yourself, how do you start building that?
• 19:32
  Yeah.
• 19:34
  I'd love to, love to give a succinct, a specific answer.
• 19:38
  Maybe I should be able to.
• 19:39
  I guess I feel as a therapist, That becomes very, individuated.
• 19:45
  it becomes very specific.
• 19:46
  You know, that becomes our journey together, you know?
• 19:50
  Right.
• 19:51
  Let's set that direction.
• 19:54
  how, could we begin to imagine that together?
• 19:58
  I think I will say this.
• 20:00
  I think usually that process is, much less about creating things and much more about letting go of things.
• 20:11
  So I think it's like we want to build this beautiful garden, right?
• 20:17
  We wanna build this beautiful garden from this vacant lot.
• 20:21
  it's probably gonna be, you know, 80% or 85% is gonna be about, you know, clearing away the, dirt, the garbage, the weeds, the, overgrowth, loosening up the soil that has, you know, been baked hard by the sun and,
• 20:43
  you know.
• 20:44
  It's gonna be more about, releasing things.
• 20:48
  And then of course, you know, we do have to add things.
• 20:50
  We're gonna plant, we're gonna plant seeds, we're gonna water it, we're going to...
• 20:55
  But, it's mostly about clearing away.
• 20:58
  Because when we clear away, then our imagination and sense of possibilities, you know, it begin, widens.
• 21:08
  So I would-- I think I'd work with a person about what are some things we can begin to let go of, because we get very rigid.
• 21:20
  You know, we get very rigidly, and we-- sort of like where we started at the very beginning, was that we just assume things are true.
• 21:28
  You know?
• 21:29
  Yeah.
• 21:29
  That's, the way it is.
• 21:30
  People suck, you know.
• 21:32
  It-- I learned, you know, I-- never trust anybody, I learned that or, you know, I, no good.
• 21:37
  You know, I'm a loser.
• 21:39
  You know, I learned that from my mother or my father, you know?
• 21:42
  And, I don't know, you know, people, I give a small example of this, but it's like here's a, small example of like, Of assumed truth.
• 21:49
  And how many times have you been looking for something, you lost your keys or something, and you, take a quick look on your, desk or something, and it's not You don't Just a very quick, superficial look.
• 22:04
  You don't see it.
• 22:05
  It's not there, so you keep running around the house and You, whenever your eye casts across the desk, you're like, "I already checked there.
• 22:15
  It's not there."
• 22:16
  And, but you didn't really look.
• 22:18
  We didn't really look carefully, and sometimes you say, "All right.
• 22:22
  Let me look one more time."
• 22:23
  You take a look and, oh, there it is.
• 22:25
  You know, it was, I just didn't look carefully enough.
• 22:28
  and I think that we, that's assuming that we already know the answer.
• 22:33
  And I, think, so it's, I would start with challenging assumptions.
• 22:38
  Okay.
• 22:38
  Do we really, we really have to see it that way?
• 22:41
  Is that really, is that the only way to see things?
• 22:47
  Maybe it is, and I'm, not it.
• 22:48
  I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying, is that really the only possibility?
• 22:56
  I think that's- Well- where I would start.
• 22:58
  Yeah, and I explain that to people when people come to me and they're talking to me, and I'm like, literally, like you were born this beautiful, divine, joyous creature, and then as people fed you all this little crap,
• 23:09
  it was like they were changing the way you looked at the world, you looked at yourself, and now you've got this pair of glasses on with 19,000 different views and perceptions given to you from someone else.
• 23:20
  Yeah.
• 23:21
  So you gotta start peeling those off.
• 23:23
  You gotta, and you gotta start finding out, you know, where they come from, peeling them off one at a time.
• 23:27
  But yeah, that's the, basis is challenging.
• 23:30
  So I know people, I know know probably, and I'm gonna give a big number here, but 100% of the people that come to you have a very harsh inner critic.
• 23:40
  Let's just say that.
• 23:41
  So they're tough on themselves because of all this crapola that's been fed to them through all these years.
• 23:47
  So what's like, say that is something that's going on with someone.
• 23:53
  What is your, 'cause I tell people to, to just, every time you get that little inner critic talking and it's sitting on your shoulder, and like you said, challenge it.
• 24:01
  Be curious.
• 24:03
  Why, why would I even say this to myself?
• 24:05
  I wouldn't say this to my best friend.
• 24:07
  You know, why would I say this to myself?
• 24:08
  And start really examining.
• 24:11
  I mean, you said it perfectly in the beginning of the interview.
• 24:15
  You said our most important relationship is the one we have with ourself.
• 24:20
  Yeah.
• 24:22
  Yeah, and I think that that, I like the, I like the way you, bring up the idea of a inner voice, inner critic.
• 24:30
  Here's a, here's a thing that might be helpful, I think, with people is if we're trying to, if we're trying to encourage self-acceptance and being gentler with ourselves and more understanding with ourselves- Maybe sometimes we can practice that
• 24:46
  with things like that internal critic.
• 24:48
  You know, for example, think about our relationship to when we're hearing that voice.
• 24:54
  we don't think about that as a relationship, let's say.
• 24:58
  But what if we thought of that internal critic as an actual sort of person that is, has this strong point of view, and they keep reiterating it in different ways or the same ways over and over again?
• 25:14
  We could, you know, can look at how we react to that, and we can practice taking a stance of like, "You know, I'm gonna This, this, this person keeps kinda showing up, and, they're, But I'm gonna practice kinda
• 25:31
  being like, 'Okay, I'll be gentle with this person.
• 25:36
  I, let me Okay, so go ahead, tell me your point of view on things.'
• 25:39
  And like, 'Oh, okay,' you know.
• 25:42
  And, that's, 'Okay, that's, I hear you.
• 25:44
  That's your point of view.
• 25:45
  And, I'm gonna, I'm gonna Yeah, I hear you, and I'll take that into account, but I'm gonna also kinda consider other alternatives.
• 25:52
  But, you know, thank you for your time.
• 25:55
  I've got some other things to do now.'"
• 25:58
  I mean, we can start to kind of As opposed to It's interesting.
• 26:04
  so like where we started also.
• 26:06
  I think the way we usually, when we're unhealthy, are hearing that, we're hearing it like the four-year-old child, that it's like, "Oh, yeah, that, this, this voice is just telling me the truth.
• 26:21
  That's all they're doing."
• 26:22
  You know, it's like they're the caregiver, they're the unhealthy caregiver, and they're just telling me the way it is.
• 26:28
  "You're a loser.
• 26:29
  You'll never amount to anything.
• 26:30
  I wish I'd never had you," or I'll, kinda whatever kind of things, like, "You ruined my life."
• 26:35
  You know, whatever it is.
• 26:36
  Heard it all.
• 26:37
  yeah, and it's sort of like, and it's sort of like, Wow, we could actually hear this as like, "Oh, this is a character with a point of view.
• 26:44
  Well, that's your opinion.
• 26:45
  Oh, okay.
• 26:47
  All right.
• 26:47
  That's your opinion.
• 26:49
  Thanks."
• 26:50
  But it doesn't have to be like, "Yeah, oh, yeah," you know?
• 26:54
  She's just, spitting facts.
• 26:56
  You know?
• 26:57
  We can, can take that Things shift a little bit, and I think all this work is about those little shifts.
• 27:05
  You know?
• 27:05
  They're not big dramatic, like, changes necessarily, but, like, little shifts lead to big changes, right?
• 27:14
  I mean, the cliche or It's like a, you make a tiny change in the direction of an ocean liner and in a, in a couple hundred miles you're, like, pointed in a you know, different part of the world,
• 27:26
  you know?
• 27:27
  Right.
• 27:28
  Right.
• 27:29
  Yeah.
• 27:29
  Yeah.
• 27:29
  No, that makes total sense.
• 27:31
  And for the people out there listening, 'cause I've had many people tell me, you know, when they wanna work on that inner critic, 'cause that's a big thing.
• 27:37
  It's horrible to have negative conversations with yourself in your own head all day long.
• 27:41
  It's, exhausting.
• 27:43
  And I tell them to imagine what that person looks like, because it's You'd be really surprised.
• 27:48
  I mean, you're probably not surprised, 'cause you've been doing this for 30 years.
• 27:51
  As to, as to what that inner critic looks like.
• 27:54
  As to what that little person that's blaring these things in the back of your mind to you is.
• 27:59
  Sometimes it is a younger version of yourself.
• 28:01
  Sometimes it's that abuser.
• 28:02
  Sometimes it's a family member.
• 28:05
  Sometimes it's nobody they even know.
• 28:07
  It's just a, big, tall guy You know?
• 28:10
  It's like, it's, amazing how, again, how your mind works.
• 28:14
  So I, mine happened, I guess maybe I was just lucky.
• 28:17
  Mine was a younger version of me, so I could, visualize and put her on the couch next to me and be like, "Let's chat."
• 28:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:25
  Not everybody has that luxury.
• 28:27
  That's also very interesting.
• 28:29
  That's a very interesting imagery of, Because when you have that little child on the couch next to you- it might be easier for the person who's having a hard time being forgiving and accepting of themselves as they see
• 28:44
  themselves now, but maybe they can find themselves being forgiving and gentle and kind to that little girl on the couch next to them who's also them.
• 28:55
  Yeah, I remember.
• 28:55
  I mean, I had a therapist tell me, "Take a picture of you as a three or four-year-old and put it on your mirror, and every day tell her you like love her, and, you're there for her," and all
• 29:04
  that stuff.
• 29:04
  And it was a whole series of the inner child work exercises and all that.
• 29:09
  But when I started that, I didn't like that little girl.
• 29:12
  Like, she was weak, and, like, I was mad at her as...
• 29:16
  And, it was, and she And I kept going back, and she kept saying, "Keep doing it.
• 29:19
  Keep doing it."
• 29:20
  And I always tell people, it feels strange, and it feels awkward until it doesn't, until you wake up one morning, and you look at that little girl and go, "Oh my God, she was so vulnerable.
• 29:32
  Like, she did nothing wrong."
• 29:34
  But it could take months.
• 29:37
  Yeah, for sure.
• 29:39
  Yeah.
• 29:39
  It's, a whole process.
• 29:41
  I mean, you know.
• 29:41
  You, like I said, you've been doing this for 30 years, working through this with so many thousands of people, I'm sure, at this point, and it is a process, but it is one, and you can probably attest to
• 29:52
  this, that is 100% worth every minute you spend making yourself, imagining and being open to the fact that there's a way better place out there if you want it.
• 30:06
  Completely.
• 30:08
  Completely.
• 30:08
  And convince, and working with the person to emphasize exactly that, that they're worth it, that this is worth it, that, that the, payoff, the benefit is well worth the, effort.
• 30:20
  Yeah.
• 30:21
  Because if you're listening to this I mean, I always say that too.
• 30:24
  Maybe that's why I just in my mind named the podcast Adult Child of Dysfunction, because people go, "Ooh, da-ding, that's me."
• 30:30
  So it's, if you're listening to it and you continue to listen to it, I've had people that have listened to over 200 episodes of it, that it's because something deep in you knows and wants to find the answers.
• 30:44
  But there's people like Aaron out there, and there's, therapists, there's coaches, there's whatever you need.
• 30:50
  There's 12-step programs.
• 30:51
  There's anything out there in the niche or area of your distress, I guess you could say.
• 30:59
  There's people out there, for sure.
• 31:02
  Yeah.
• 31:03
  Yeah.
• 31:04
  So tell um, tell us what you do exactly, how you're, you know, how you work with people, and the proximity of where you can work with them and, what it looks like to work with you.
• 31:17
  Well, I think it would be, very similar to kind of the discussion that we had.
• 31:21
  If there a person was to work with me, we would kind of touch on most of the themes that we've addressed today.
• 31:28
  to people that, feel free to come to our website where we can, we do try to provide a lot of useful, information, that could be part of a person's, person's healing, journey.
• 31:44
  It's bostoneveningtherapy.com.
• 31:46
  If anybody wants to contact me directly, to, just to ask a question or to, for any reason, it's Aaron, A-A-R-O-N, @bostoneveningtherapy.com.
• 31:59
  in terms of clientele, we're, only able to see, residents of Massachusetts in, psychotherapy, but, we may be able to help with, referrals to, you're in another state, or just be helpful in any other way.
• 32:17
  But, Okay yeah.
• 32:20
  Perfect, and I will put that in the show notes for anybody that is driving, ain't driving, didn't have time to write it down, or doesn't remember what he said.
• 32:27
  I know you guys listen to, probably binge a ton of podcasts and are listening to it.
• 32:32
  So it will be in the show notes how to connect with Aaron and how to reach out.
• 32:36
  Go get there, get the resources.
• 32:38
  You so deserve it.
• 32:39
  Aaron, before you leave, first of all, thank you so much for coming on.
• 32:43
  Pleasure.
• 32:44
  And I want to leave you with one more question for the audience.
• 32:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:49
  If someone feels, and this came directly from you, if someone feels stuck in anxiety, shame, or old patterns, what is one practical shift they can make starting today?
• 33:03
  say one thing today, I would, step away from the lot of the concepts we've talked about today and, suggest Get outside in nature, get outside in sunshine.
• 33:19
  look at the natural world.
• 33:22
  You know, I do find that sometimes that can-- things like that can be very helpful, you know, to experience, looking at a tree.
• 33:29
  You know, a tree is not this magnificent life form.
• 33:36
  it- you don't get the sense that it's worried about is it a good enough tree?
• 33:40
  Is it a strong enough-- Am I strong?
• 33:42
  Is it a strong enough tree?
• 33:44
  Are my branches good-looking enough?
• 33:47
  You know, there are some lessons out there, and I also think that just, Getting outside into the physical world is also a metaphor for what we're trying to do, which is getting outside of ourselves.
• 34:00
  So I think that would be my first suggestion.
• 34:03
  I absolutely love this, that you weren't like, "Get out a journal.
• 34:06
  Do this.
• 34:07
  Do that."
• 34:07
  You're literally like, "Get outside."
• 34:09
  I had an interview with a, very really neat, girl a couple months ago, and her name was Kelly Kinney, and literally she ended it by saying, "Just go hug a tree."
• 34:19
  Mm.
• 34:20
  Yeah.
• 34:20
  I mean, it makes sense.
• 34:21
  Just being in the earth and grounding, there's so much to be said for just the energetic properties of nature in general, and the healing properties it has.
• 34:32
  So- I think it's one It might be one reason why we love, you know, most people, you know, love dogs so much because they're, they're Very often, you know, you sense a, peaceness, peacefulness, a, an acceptance, that is,
• 34:50
  wow, that is beautiful.
• 34:52
  It's a beautiful thing.
• 34:54
  Oh, yeah.
• 34:54
  Yeah.
• 34:55
  And I love the science behind it.
• 34:56
  They say, you know, if you're out in nature, these frequencies are healing, and they say if you have an animal and you hug them, it literally drops your cortisol levels by X percent.
• 35:06
  They study these things, so there's not, you know, it's not this woo-woo stuff.
• 35:10
  I mean, it's literally Well, to me it's common sense.
• 35:14
  The things that bring you peace and joy in your heart and your soul are the things you should be doing.
• 35:19
  So if going to the ocean and putting your feet in the sand, and putting on your headphones, and not even playing music, just putting on your headphones so people think you're doing something, and ignoring the rest of the
• 35:29
  world, if that's what brings you peace, so be it.
• 35:31
  Do it.
• 35:32
  That's- I think that's a great- that's what I would do.
• 35:34
  I think that's a great piece of advice, too, and I, would encourage that.
• 35:37
  I would echo that, is, when you stumble upon things that work, do the hell out of them.
• 35:43
  You know, keep, at it.
• 35:44
  Keep Don't, talk yourself out of it.
• 35:46
  Don't find reasons why, "Well, that's stupid.
• 35:48
  That's No, it's not stupid.
• 35:51
  Do, it.
• 35:51
  Keep doing it.
• 35:53
  Absolutely.
• 35:54
  So again, thank you so much, Aaron, for coming on.
• 35:57
  You threw a bunch of little tidbits in there that I think the listeners will fully enjoy and embrace, and that's what Adult Child of Dysfunction is all about, our podcast.
• 36:06
  So thank you.
• 36:06
  My pleasure.
• 36:06
  Thank you so much.
• 36:09
  You're welcome.
• 36:10
  And for everybody else out there listening, you heard it.
• 36:12
  When you stumble, and I don't, I'm not gonna remember the exact quotes, I never get them exactly right, but when you stumble upon something that you enjoy doing, do the hell out of it.
• 36:22
  Indeed.
• 36:22
  I think that's what he said.
• 36:24
  So you all have a blessed week, and we will see you back soon.