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The Brutal Reality of Working in B2B Marketing · The Crowded Market

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: In today's episode of The Crowded Market, we spoke to Abby Markey.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now Abby is an experienced marketeer who went through two redundancies and was subject to burnout.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: And she talks to us about how she navigated this.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you went through two redundancies, am I right in saying?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Were they back to back?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Within about three months of each other, which is quite unique.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it got to the point where I was joining meetings and going through things, and I just had to turn my camera off and just sit there and go, yep, yep, because I couldn't I couldn't hold myself together.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: She was on a clear path to becoming a marketing director, and she learnt a lot of things along that journey, and how progression in one way is not always the best thing.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Always been a person that wants to go on to the next thing.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I always join an organization and go, Where's my growth here?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a promotion?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next step?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, it it just resulted for me in complete burnout.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: And finally, she spoke about being in a full-time role and how she's now transitioned into being a freelancer and how that lifestyle and career decision has benefited her for the long run.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, there's no security in freelance.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then you get a little bit of a push in the right direction and you realise that there's no security in a full-time job.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was looking for another job after the second redundancy, I honestly thought I don't have time to apply and go through all of these hoops that we go through when we interview for a full-time job.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So let's try it.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: This is a fantastic episode for marketeers who are looking to learn a little bit more about career progression and how navigating full-time employment or freelance can benefit you.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Abby, hello.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: That was a weird, weird spot.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Are you okay?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for coming down to our what you said as an incredibly Bristolian kind of setup studio with the brickwork, industrial, what we've gone for.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Do you like it?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a great venue.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's very Bristol.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: It is, I agree.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of I want to talk about your career today.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're going down a little bit more of a career route for this one today, um, because you've had quite an interesting journey.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: You've faced some adversity, some would say.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you went through two redundancies, am I right in saying?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Which is ridiculous.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, personally, from somebody who's who sees a lot of marketing teams, works with a lot of them, it's always the first thing I see get cut.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: When times get tough for businesses, marketing teams are the first to get the chop.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh which is strange because you think if time's tough, you need more business, right?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: And how are you gonna get more business with marketing?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you went through two of those.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Were they back to back?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Within about three months of each other, which is quite unique.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know lots of people go through redundancies, and I have been through them before, yeah, but they've been in different situations.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I've in in total it's been three redundancies.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: One of them was voluntary, which has felt very different.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the yeah, the two that were three months apart, both again were very different.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like it's a unique position to be in, but unfortunately, I do think there's so many people that have been made redundant that have gone through all of this.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's important to share.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of companies were they out of interest?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like were they big or were they kind of medium or semi?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a medium business and a small business.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think when you go into a smaller business, you do expect a little bit of or a little bit more of volatility and less um less security, maybe.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I didn't really I think when you go into a job, that's not what you think about.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's not think you're not thinking, oh, I could get made redundant from this.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously what I've learned since is you could get made redundant from any job at any point.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's it's it's been a journey.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: It can happen at any point.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, I can imagine it taught you some valuable lessons, but you didn't only face these two redundancies, you came across a bit of burnout.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So all of this this trifecta of just awful, kind of annoying things happening, it must have reshaped your view on your career or what what you wanted to do, how you wanted to kind of move forward, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm a different person in many ways since then, and that sounds a little bit dramatic, but since going through all of that, so I I started a new job and I saw so much potential in that job.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I saw so much potential in the company, in the role that I was going into, and I just had this kind of um tunnel vision of this is where I want to be.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've always been a person that wants to go on to the next thing.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I always join an organization and go, where where's my growth here?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is there a promotion?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next steps?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I always ask that in interviews.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And to my detriment, maybe that might be that might be an issue.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's always something that I've kind of strive to do.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, it it just resulted for me in complete burnout.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think I don't know why it's given and seen as threatening sometimes for you to ask these things.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you naturally wanting to go up a ladder and see where it's going to be best for you.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they always say an interview is not as is as much for the employer as it is for the employee.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's for your opportunity to understand whether there is this is the right place for you to work.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: You're exchanging something that you can't get back for money, which is time.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's no, there's no something, there's nothing of greater value, right?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it always confuses me a little bit when um they see that as a little bit of a threatening kind of aspect.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you you face these two redundancies, you burn out.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: What what kind of things led to the burnout as well?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah, so I I um joined a company where um it was a very small marketing team, and I knew there was the biggest opportunity to come in and support with marketing activity, and I saw there was an opportunity for me to go into, say, a marketing director or a head of marketing role, which is something that I've always wanted.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my god, this is my chance.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So in my mind, this was, you know, put all completely put on myself to be like, okay, I need to prove myself, but not just to myself, which I'm always doing anyway, but to everyone else around me that I can do this job.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I can do this job, plus I can do the next job because that's where I want to go.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I got so focused on doing that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing a rebrand, a brand new website, all at the same time, putting so much pressure on myself.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was working very long hours.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody really saw that because it was a fully remote job.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that was why I was putting so much pressure on myself.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like no one else was ringing me up and saying, Have you done this thing?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was all my choice.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that was like, I know how what difference this is gonna make in the business, and I really want this to happen sooner rather than later so that we can all see this difference.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I was really passionate about it and I really saw potential, and it was, you know, a great organization to work for.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I put that all on myself to go, like, I need to deliver this.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: If there was, if there was something that was delaying it, I'd work extra hard and extra long hours to get it done because I knew the importance.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and obviously, it's easy for me to reflect back now and be like, what that makes no sense.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing that?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting what you say about a remote job and people not noticing that you were burnt out.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if that's a huge thing that, you know, I mean, there's always the argument of in-person, in office roles and hybrid roles and remote roles.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: People being remote, it must be so much harder to catch on whether uh an employee or a member of your staff is struggling or whether they're overwhelmed.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because all you're doing is seeing them on a 15-minute Zoom call in like a 2D pixelated format, right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: As opposed to in-person, where you can, you know, you can read those signs like uh, you know, as somebody who's a manager or a boss or somebody, they could probably read their employees much better if they're kind of there in front of them.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder how many kind of um Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that people tend to have this idea if you're fully remote, then you're not necessarily working.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think that we actually talk about enough the fact that actually somebody could be going through so much at home, whether that's work-related, personal related, and you just don't really have those bonds as much when you're when you're fully remote.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And unless people tell you you don't know what's going on in people's lives or you don't know how swamped someone is, they could be, yes, sat watching Netflix all day, yeah, or they could be absolutely swamped, drowning, struggling, something else is going on at home.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't see that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a whole I mean it's very recent, isn't it?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: That so many people are fully remote.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I say it's recent, it's still, you know, it still feels quite recent.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: It is, though.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't really know properly how to manage it.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're still navigating it.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Every employer's figuring it out, they don't know what the right way is.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's an element of, as somebody who who employs people, there's an element of giving autonomy to the person and letting them decide, having the environment for them to come to, but also knowing that they don't have to be there all the time.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's some freedom in that, I think.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what you were mentioning, you know, what led to the burnout was the fact that you were managing things like rebrand, websites, campaigns, socials.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is the problem.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: A marketer is given all of those things, and they think that they're all the same.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of employers think that that can just fall under the marketing umbrella.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's all very nice, and you can just kind of be given that to one person.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Please sort all these different forms of media out for us and enjoy that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas, I mean, me and you both know they're completely different roles.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you've got brand designers, you've got web designers, you know, and then even within web design, you know, front and back end, there's a million roles to cover these things, but it's often in small and medium-sized companies, it's down to that one person, isn't it?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to do it.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, you know, this is probably where my my uh attitude probably isn't the best in terms of ending up in a burnout, because I'm like, and you have to do it because who else is gonna do it?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's kind of my frame of mind, and it was absolutely my frame of mind in that role.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, who else is gonna do it?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: No one else can do it.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have budget to reach it out.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: We have a very small marketing team, so we can all do bits, but I also am uh I tend to go into a bit of a savior mode mode.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I will put myself in detriment over others.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: If I see somebody else drowning, I will take that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I am getting better at that.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: But at that time, that was definitely something that contributed to my burnout because I was like, I don't want anybody else to be in this position.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And being someone that was like, I I want to be in that leadership side of things, I want to be in that leadership team, I need to protect everyone else.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was there was a lot of things going on in my brain.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's too much, isn't it, to handle.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: But so not only this, but uh uh at one point you were on a very clear path to becoming a marketing director of a company, right?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: In my mind, yes.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: What I mean, this was the thing that you were chasing, the creme de la creme of the career to a degree.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: What there must have been some lessons along this chase that you learned.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think obviously I was taken on way too much, yeah, and I was trying so hard because I saw that clear path.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't necessarily know if others around me saw that for me.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that was my like tunnel vision, that was my thing.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to the point where I was partway through these projects and actually a marketing director came into the business, and I saw their experience and actually understood.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, interesting, like you know, super experienced, super talented, worked for big big brands.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I understood it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I was disappointed.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but in those situations, I don't I don't really get mad about it because it is what it is.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: But however, saying that, all the intrusive thoughts came through and was like, well, I'm not good enough.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I've been putting my soul into all of this, my like everything.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I just felt really deflated and I knew I just needed to get through all of these things that I'd kind of set myself up to do because they were really important to me, but also I wanted to finish them, I wanted to have that as my my, you know, my CV, my portfolio to be like, well, I've done all of these things because these are the things that I want to be doing in the future.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it just got to the point where I felt like I was carrying so much that if anyone said anything that was adding to my plate or something that was gonna delay a timeline, I just couldn't take it anymore.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was just like, I I just kind of like it's too much, it's too heavy.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Anything like I the only way I just can describe it is it's like carrying a hundred bags and then someone being like, oh, that one bag isn't quite being held correctly.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where I now I'm like, okay, you you should know that that is not a good place to be.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time I was like, why?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why why are they doing this to me?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: No one really knew how much I was struggling, I think.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I really knew how much I was struggling or or the way out because I was again like, no one else is gonna do this, I have to do this.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so, it was so, so important to me.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And let's face it, like, marketing is not life and death, like it's really not that that important.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's really not, but at that time I really thought it was, and I was putting everything into it, and it got to the point where I was joining meetings and going through things, and I just had to turn my camera off and just sit there and go, yep, yep, because I couldn't put I couldn't hold myself together.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was just I was went from seven days in a row where I just cried every day, and I was like, this is not good.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is not how I want to live my life, and this is not like something has to change.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: And luckily, I did have a supportive, um, supportive leadership.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I did, and I was just like, I've just got to take a step back.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I've definitely been through it before, but not as bad as this, where you just kind of gotta go, I I just need to step away, I cannot do any more, and you just have to almost drop drop all the bags, drop everything, and just go, it's really not that serious.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Looking back at that time in your life now, how does it make you feel?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I can definitely see burnout in others very easily now.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Very easily, and I think it's so easy to see that in others now.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think I can notice it in myself more when I'm going down that route.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it makes me feel really sad for myself because I know I was only trying to, you know, do my best.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's shaped me so much.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't really regret how I handled it, but I've just learned a lot from it.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, just just being a little bit more honest and not trying to prove whatever I'm trying to approve, who knows?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean this is it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: We want to prove ourselves, but there's there's a point, isn't there?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, you don't know that your your your brain is very late to realising when it's all kind of falling apart.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it some it realizes too late to a degree.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think looking back now, were there any kind of early signs for you as somebody in marketing who is handling a million things?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Any early signs or or tells that you were burning out, that you could kind of because there could be some people today that don't even realise that they are, they're in that position as well.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Marketing is high pressure, regardless of whether people think it's important or not, you know, it's high pressure because you are a massive you're a huge arm of the business that's relied upon to generate work as well.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, marketing sales, the cross between it, you know, sales relies on marketing and what what could some kind of early tells that you think you had that you could share with me now?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're completely right.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: There is so many directions that marketing has pulled in from reporting into leadership on performance or or knowing that you need to incorporate brand and not get in their ROI straight away with that, reporting into the sales team, even if it's indirectly, you need to generate leads, you need to do all of these things.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you said before, it's social, it's podcasts, it's email marketing, it's website, it's brand, you know.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I could go on.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when you work in an organization where there's not those specialism roles, yeah, and it does all feel like there is so much to do.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think when I think for me the clear sign was having the feelings from other people.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was getting more irritable in terms of if somebody would ask me to do something or um feedback to me, like I take feedback really well, um modest, but I I do like I understand, like I I get feedback, I take it on board and I go off and do my.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can tell that from when that marketing director came in and you were like, I get it.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's an incredibly f like there's a for lack of better expression, kind of grown up an adult, like that most adults don't, you know, we get our backs up against the wall and to go, oh, yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: To have that realization is very, I think you're very self-aware for that.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I and I think um that's when I knew that that that was going out the window.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So somebody saying to me, Oh, this isn't quite right, or why have we like just questioning something and not questioning something in a really negative way, just questioning anything.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I would be like, Why are they questioning it?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like what's what's your problem with me?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or like, why are you trying to make my life harder?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, they no one is.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that was one of the first signs for me where I should have known, or if people are going through it where you just feel like everyone is, you know, you're annoyed with everyone and everyone is out to get you.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's kind of like a little indication of maybe you're just feeling like there's just no more room to fit in anything.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I just need to get this done.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't give me any feedback.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let me just get it done.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're facing say you were facing this position again, you're in this role.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: What are what are three things that you would do to avoid getting to this point now?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Would you say to me?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I would be more honest with myself and the people around me.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Take no shame in saying I cannot do this all myself.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Take a breath and go, okay, well, we want to get all this done.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's double the timeline.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not try and do it in six months.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like that timeline comes from from me.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, sometimes you need to give yourself a little bit longer than you really need to.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: As much as everybody wants to get something done quickly.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And yesterday.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And yesterday, actually just standing your ground and going, actually, it's gonna take maybe it's gonna take me three months.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say six months, because at least then you you deliver it earlier because projects always run over.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Projects always run over.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So to try and squeeze yourself into a smaller timeline to prove yourself or to make somebody happy, um, it just doesn't, it doesn't end up working out because you cannot do your best work if you are burnt out.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot do your best work if you're working 12 hours a day.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Help the business by helping yourself.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: To a degree.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: So these redundancies, they've happened.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: You've now had a big career pivot.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, kind of recently, this year, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Into freelancing, the world of freelancing, working for yourself, deciding kind of to a degree who you work with and who you work for and how much you do.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: How's that going?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's been a roller coaster of a year because um this all started sort of the end of last year, and I yeah, I can't believe it's been a year of all of these things happening, really, because um, yeah, I I always wanted to be freelance and I always loved the idea of it, but I was I never had the guts to do it.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, there's no security in freelance.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then you get a little bit of a push in the right direction, and you realize that there's no security in a full-time job.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was looking for another job after uh the second redundancy, I honestly thought I don't have time to apply and go through all of these hoops that we go through when we interview for a full-time job.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So let's try it.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I never went out and was like, I'm gonna start a business, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be freelance.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, uh, let's see if I can get some work.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: If it works, then great.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't, then I'll apply for some full-time jobs.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going all right.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's going all right.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's where we where we where we are at the moment.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for me, like this is a very unknown territory because it's not I've I've not got that progression.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: My my brain is shifted in a different way of oh, actually, how can I help more businesses?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Where do I see my do I start a business?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do I continue freelance?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually really exciting.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I'm just like, oh, it's it's going all right at the moment.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we're seeing what works and we're seeing what doesn't work.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm learning loads.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I am dedicated.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely making mistakes and probably saying yes to too much.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's it's an it's a journey that I have way feel like I have way more control over.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And because of what I've been through previously, I feel like I have a lot more awareness of looking after myself and being like, okay, you've made these decisions to take on these clients.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is what you're gonna do, this is what you're gonna deliver.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then at this point, you can start thinking about your own business and and kind of balancing out that way.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know all the answers yet.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do any of us?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, no one knows all the answers.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I've definitely shifted my frame of mind from I want to be this, this, this job title or whatever it is in this business, to okay, this could be this could be a thing.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: It could be a thing.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: It is a thing, Abby, as well.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: It already is a thing.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like for, you know, as much as full-time roles grant, well, what we thought security, right?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Which we kind of learned here today that they have, they don't necessarily.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Security and you know, your pensions kind of all gets kind of sorted for you, and you've got a team.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's something that it can't necessarily always provide, which is autonomy over your own life.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And decision, you know, you've you've got both hands on the wheel now.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's down to you.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And progression looks very different, but progression follows suit in it, can be chasing the title, but it can also be how you help clients, or whether you want to be a business, or how you know you learn off your own back now, and everything that you do in terms of progression is still progression, just in a very, very different way.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's great.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, some closing lines, you know, after this chaotic journey and path of your career, what are some kind of clear and key things?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the final closing lessons that you've that you've learned for yourself take a step back, breathe.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Marketing is not life and death, and it's okay if things get delayed, and it's okay if things can't be done.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's better that they can't be done than trying to do something that is to the detriment to either you or a business.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think it is important to remember that we're all human.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're all trying to do our best and we're all trying to make the decisions that's right for us at the right time.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: I may have gone through two redundancies, I don't hold it against anyone because everyone's just trying to do their best.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said before, no one knows everything.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're all human, we're all trying to get by.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and being honest with what a business needs, probably over what you need sometimes is also a positive.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: So unless it's like you know, the business needs a website by tomorrow and you're gonna spend 24 hours trying to deliver it, I don't mean that side of things.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean if a business needs you to go a bit slower or if a business needs you to be a bit more honest, then I don't think people should be afraid of saying those things out loud.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Abby, thank you so much for coming on today.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's been great to talk to you.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you too.