Latest / eCommerce Podcast / When to Let Go of a Product That Isn't Working Anymore | Amy Leinbach

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When to Let Go of a Product That Isn't Working Anymore | Amy Leinbach · eCommerce Podcast

0:04
Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with me, your host.
0:09
Matt Edmundson.
0:09
Now, this is a show all about helping you deliver e-commerce.
0:13
Wow.
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And today is a founder's episode.
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This is where I get to talk to someone who is actually running
0:19
their own e-commerce business.
0:20
And I'm really excited to have my conversation with Amy today.
0:23
We had a great prequel, uh, and just, yeah, really excited.
0:27
Uh, let me tell you a little bit about myself.
0:28
If you don't know, I've been in eCommerce since 2002.
0:31
Today I partner with eCommerce brands.
0:33
All over the world to help them grow, scale and exit.
0:36
And if you'd like to know more about how that works, then head over to the
0:39
website, eCommerce Podcast dot net.
0:42
It's all on there.
0:43
Where incidentally, you can also sign up of course, too, the wonderful
0:46
newsletter that we have where everything comes to your inbox.
0:49
The, the site kind of, I wanna say the show notes, it's not the show notes
0:53
'cause we really expand on them, uh, and deliver some great value in there.
0:56
So, uh, if you've not signed up to the email.
0:58
You should really get on that, the newsletter.
0:59
So go check that out eCommerce Podcast dot net.
1:02
Enough of all that, now you know that if you're a regulatory show and if
1:05
you're not, by the way, if you're new, a really warm welcome to you, where am I?
1:08
Manners.
1:08
It's great that you are here.
1:10
Uh, let's talk about today's guest.
1:12
Amy, uh, Amy, all the way from Austin, Texas, uh, uh, with Ms. Pacman behind her.
1:19
If
1:19
That's right.
1:20
Say hi.
1:21
She's, she's listening in today.
1:23
She might wanna get into the e-commerce game.
1:25
So she is, you know,
1:27
She's there.
1:28
She's
1:28
there, which is great.
1:30
Yeah,
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I mistakenly said that.
1:33
That's awesome.
1:33
You have Pacman behind you, but it's not Pacman, it's Ms. Pacman,
1:39
which is very, very important.
1:41
Um, I just love the fact you've got an arcade game behind you.
1:43
I just think that I, I'm just like, I am totally getting one
1:46
into my, I'm in the, in what I call my man cave now, and I should
1:49
Oh, you need one.
1:51
You need one.
1:51
It's old school connection.
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It's, it's just so good.
1:54
It's a different feeling.
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Go get one.
1:56
It is a very different, you know what, can I just tell a quick, I appreciate
1:59
this is not the conversation of the podcast, but a quick short story.
2:03
Uh, my daughter who has just turned 18, like last week.
2:07
Um, a, a couple years ago we went on a trip.
2:11
Her and I, we went over to the States, um, and she wanted to do
2:14
the, the, Pacific Coast Highway.
2:17
You know, we, we rented a car and we drove the, the Pacific Coast Highway
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along the coast of California, and we drove up from south of LA up to
2:26
San Francisco and it was beautiful.
2:29
And when we got,
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Alma mater,
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uh, Pepperdine.
2:32
You passed my alma mater.
2:34
That beautiful pass you went through,
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There we go.
2:37
There we go.
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Uh, it was, it was beautiful.
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And, and, and when we gotta San Francisco, there was this sort of place down on the,
2:43
on what I'd call the docks down the, I think you call 'em the pier D uh, down
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at the pier there was this sort of place where there was old arcade machines.
2:52
You went in and it was just, it was this massive place just for, and you walked
2:56
in and there was like pinball machines from the 1950s and I'm like, Zoe, we have
3:01
got to spend a little bit of time here.
3:04
And lo and behold, in that place, they found the one game that I was
3:09
good at when I was a youngster,
3:11
uh, it
3:12
was the Star Wars, uh, game, the Atari Star Wars
3:15
Oh, a chart.
3:16
Yes.
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And I abs I, when I was a kid, I absolutely did.
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So I got very excited and it's the one computer game or arcade game
3:24
that I can actually beat my kids at.
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I'm, I'm actually, I can't, I can't bowl, but Capcom bowling.
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Was my, the one with the bowling ball in the middle and you just do it.
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I'd do it until I'd like pull my, my muscles between.
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Did Zoe think, did she, did she kind get it?
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I mean, it's a
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Yeah, I mean obviously the, the graphics were very, very
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different to what she's used to.
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Um, but I think she was just loving the fact that dad was just very excited and
3:54
actually completed the game on his first
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go.
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Still still got the muscle memory,
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like 50 years.
4:00
got it.
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What a thing to still have.
4:03
What a thing to us anyway.
4:05
Back to e-commerce, uh, the real reason people have tuned in other than
4:08
to reminisce about arcade machines.
4:10
Amy, tell us a little bit about yourself.
4:11
Tell us a little about, uh, a little bit about Big B, little B.
4:15
Um, I have a daughter as well.
4:17
Her name is Marlo and Big B, little B. I'm the big B. She's the
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little B, that's her brand name.
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Um, she's 10, she not 18.
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Uh.
4:26
But together we invent, develop, manufacture, and retail.
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Um, our own creations, several of them invented by me, one of them
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invented by her, and they're all eco-friendly products, but they make
4:42
your, your daily routines easier.
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Um, for example, silicone food storage containers that, you know, historically,
4:50
silicone food storage can be a little.
4:53
Um, difficult to clean, not super user friendly.
4:56
Um, and we designed an approach that makes it easier for you
5:01
than even like a regular bag.
5:03
Um, and she invented, uh, the silicone product that keeps your marker caps
5:09
contained, grips your marker caps, so you just remove a marker and not, uh,
5:13
remove the cap so they can't get lost.
5:15
So everything is eco-friendly, eco-conscious, but mostly to do
5:20
with making your life easier.
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On a daily basis.
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That's what we do.
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We've been doing
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That's amazing.
5:27
I think we're going on 10 years now.
5:30
Well, she's 10.
5:31
Sure.
5:32
almo?
5:32
Yeah.
5:33
Well, so nine.
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So nine.
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'cause the first product I brought to market was for
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her when she was, um, a baby.
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We don't sell it anymore, but it was made for her.
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And that was the beginning.
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So a what?
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That's incredible.
5:46
I love this idea of doing something.
5:50
With your daughter.
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I mean, that's, that's quite an extraordinary thing.
5:54
Um, I, I, when our kids were growing up, my daughter's my youngest child, we got
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three, my oldest is, I don't know, 23, 24.
6:01
You stop counting after a while, Amy, I'm not gonna lie.
6:03
Adult.
6:05
he's an adult.
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Um, but when they were grown up, we never gave them pocket money or an allowance,
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uh, as you'd call it on your side of the pond.
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But I did say to them, if they had a business idea, I would invest in it.
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Um, and so my son, when he was 10, set up a chicken business.
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He wanted to buy chickens and he would go and sell the eggs
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and all that sort of stuff.
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And so,
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uh,
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did it.
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I, I, I mean, I invested in it, so I paid for it to sort of
6:29
start, but yeah, he went and started this chicken business, which was amazing.
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And so I,
6:34
in the chicken business.
6:35
well, it's, it's a good business to
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be
6:37
Francisco, he's in the chicken business.
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He sells his eggs.
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He has a huge margin, And he's just a really cute kid with a great personality
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and just, he's a phenomenal salesman.
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And his eggs are, you know, I can't call him over price because, you
6:52
know, he's, they're worth that, you know, the way he cares for them.
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So
6:57
Yeah, yeah.
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chicken business.
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It's
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Start him.
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young.
7:00
Yes.
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stardom young, which is what you're doing with your daughter and I
7:03
I'm, how does she respond to the idea of being involved in e-commerce?
7:07
She's in, she's in love with it.
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So I saw in her from an extremely young age what I think my parents saw in me.
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Like she's, she's very, she's all of her toys that she'd get,
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never in her mind were the toys.
7:25
They were on the box.
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Like to her good, her an alphabet, you know, set.
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She's making soup.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Like everything she was using, everything she could get her hands on,
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she did something else with it always.
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And she really loved being in her playroom with her stuff.
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And you could always see everything going on behind the,
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the eyes, even just as a baby.
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And I really love to encourage that in children.
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I actually used to be, um, a special education teacher and I
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just really love to encourage the creativity and the problem solving
8:04
and finding other ways into problems.
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So I was very much, I fed all of that every.
8:09
You know, a lot of times, you know, kids love, um, things that
8:13
would typically be trash pieces of styrofoam that came in boxes.
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She's always had it all.
8:17
I've, I've never said no.
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I joke about it.
8:19
I laugh like, please enough, like right now, huge constructions at a
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cardboard and I've never said no to that because it, I, I feel like you
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get that part of the brain so open
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once so to keep it open and she.
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She's always making stuff.
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And so when it came, she was, she was six and a half and she had
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the idea for the marker, Parker.
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It doesn't, the product on the market doesn't resemble it at all.
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You know, you see the process, it's really fun.
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But, uh, when she created that prototype, she'd solve the problem
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for losing her marker caps.
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And I was like, let's, do you wanna, do you wanna make a product together
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or see if it can turn into a product?
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Really, and she wanted to and together, um, we did it.
9:03
And she knows so much about product development and e-commerce now,
9:09
because once you're done with the product development process, it's
9:12
like, well, you are not done now.
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Now is when the real work begins.
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You know, you gotta.
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So she's, she's fascinated by it.
9:21
And just last night, um, she makes toys now just for herself.
9:25
She's a toy maker, but just last night we were working on, um, we 3D
9:29
printed a prototype for, uh, uh, a new size of the s shell, one of the
9:36
silicone food storage containers.
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And she looked at the, um, the top of it, and she's just like,
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the, the pattern looks too.
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Um.
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Cramped in one spot.
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And she is like, and I don't like that.
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It doesn't have like the slight slope on the top silicone panel.
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And I'm listening and I'm like, okay, I agree with the scattering of the,
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you know, how, how it's cramped in one spot and the design, but why?
10:01
Why with the slope?
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Why do we need it?
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We have the fit.
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And she's like, well, the other ones, I just don't think it fits.
10:07
Like with the line of the other products, they all have a slight slope.
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So she's like, I don't think it has to be, 'cause this one was completely flat.
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She's like, I don't think it has to be completely flat, but I do think it needs
10:17
to have that same feel as the others.
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And I was like, Ooh,
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ooh,
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is a, this is a 10-year-old young girl
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saying this.
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So, and she's right.
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She's so right on that.
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But the way she approached it, she wasn't just, at first she
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was like, oh, it's so cool.
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And then immediately see her start to study it.
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It's, it's been phenomenal.
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It's so rewarding.
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It's so rewarding to watch her, um, develop these skills and, and mostly
10:51
have the confidence to say it, you know, have the confidence to show it, because I
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respect her as an inventor and like, just like every other inventor, you know, and
11:01
product developer grown up, it's the same.
11:06
There's a
11:06
amazing.
11:07
no, no doubt.
11:08
I mean, there's a company here in the uk I'll give 'em a little shout
11:11
out called Seven Yays Who Make Birthday Week Advent Calendars.
11:15
They're quite, it's quite an extraordinary idea.
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I think it's a really great idea, which they've, I. They've developed and, and,
11:20
and, and done well with all came because their daughter one day came back from
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school and said, dad, I've got an idea.
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And dad was like, I like that idea.
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Let's see if there's any mileage in it.
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And, and they've got a full fledged econ business as a result of, you know,
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I have to look it up.
11:35
Do you say like, yay.
11:36
Like yay.
11:38
The number Seven
11:39
YAYS.
11:41
Yeah.
11:41
Seven Yays.
11:42
Oh my gosh.
11:43
The play on days.
11:44
The play.
11:45
I love it all.
11:45
Yay.
11:46
Like, oh, I love it all.
11:47
Yeah, it's, it's really clever what they've done.
11:49
And, um, I, I, I, I really like those guys.
11:53
A big shout out to Andrew and Charlotte if they're listening,
11:55
who head up seven years.
11:56
Um, but again, this idea of getting kids involved in the business and showing them
12:01
from an early age, I. I think is quite a remarkable thing, and I, and why not?
12:07
I mean, you, you're,
12:08
it, it is fascinating that you sit and say, oh, we just 3D printed a
12:10
some, because you can do that now.
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It's not
12:12
can do it.
12:13
you can prototype super easy.
12:15
I just, I'm just gonna 3D print that and see what it comes out.
12:17
I don't like the word That's 3D.
12:18
Print another one and
12:19
see what that comes out like.
12:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:21
I think the technology that we have access to now.
12:25
In some respects it's never been easier, but fundamentally the
12:28
principle still stays the same.
12:30
When I was a kid, my dad encouraged me to run a tuck shop at school, you know, where
12:34
you would sell, um, sweets and candy to the kids.
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And so I did.
12:39
Um, I mean, we didn't have 3D printer back then, but I could go and buy
12:41
sweetss from one shop cheaply and sell them slightly more expensive to
12:45
the, and you learn that trade and.
12:47
You learn the value of money.
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But the thing that I love about what you've done, you've tapped
12:52
into the creativity actually and imagination of a 10-year-old girl.
12:55
'cause I think that's easily lost and that's, it's
12:57
quite a remarkable thing.
12:59
I, I think also one of the important things is also showing her the bad
13:05
parts of, or the, the, the very challenging parts or when something.
13:10
Goes wrong.
13:11
I mean, certainly in the product development process, there are
13:13
a whole different approaches.
13:14
Like I taught her that we, we stay married to the problem that we're solving.
13:18
We don't stay married to the approach that we have, which is why it looks
13:22
different than her first prototype.
13:24
But also I think it's important to continue that development of problem
13:28
solving, to keep that part open, to always be solving problems because.
13:33
I don't wanna cause call it problems really, but eCommerce is like, every
13:37
day you're handed a, a challenge.
13:39
We're talking today on a day that we learned about new
13:42
tariffs yesterday afternoon.
13:44
And it will have an impact and it will, we will have to make a shift and
13:49
I don't keep those things from her.
13:51
I don't keep that from her either.
13:52
I said, these are the things and, and maybe these are some
13:55
of the levers we can pull.
13:57
Um, but even when it's not something she's really learned about, I always
14:00
bring her into that conversation because one day she will surprise me like she did
14:04
with her, you know, design suggestions in a way that I didn't think about.
14:09
One day she will enter in that conversation and say something
14:13
exactly like that design pointing out.
14:15
Like, what about this lever?
14:17
What about, you know, um, so.
14:20
We talk about the challenges just as much as we talk about the wins, as
14:26
Which, which, which is great 'cause they learn resilience.
14:28
Right.
14:29
And they
14:29
learn that the, the world is not also in shining rainbows.
14:32
And, and it's not all Carly Simon or whoever it is that's on the Netflix or
14:36
the kids, or, I'm just talking out of
14:37
Carly Simon.
14:38
I. I, I, I am Carly.
14:41
That's the one.
14:42
Carly Simon
14:42
I'm Carly.
14:43
Carly Simon.
14:44
It sounds like, I don't think my daughter's really into Carly Simon,
14:47
but I should introduce her to.
14:49
Yeah.
14:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:50
Um, you are so vain, I think is the, uh,
14:53
So,
14:56
yes.
14:58
Oh
14:58
you know what, Amy, the sad thing is there's people listening to the
15:00
podcast now going, who's Carley
15:02
Who's car?
15:02
Well, they look her up and they'll learn something amazing.
15:04
So there's a learning from this,
15:06
Yeah, I think, yeah, That's true.
15:08
That's true.
15:09
So this is great.
15:10
So I, um, why, why did you get into e-commerce?
15:15
What kickstarted that journey for you?
15:16
I mean, it was, it just the fact you are, you needed something for
15:19
your daughter and you thought, well, I'll make it and sell it online.
15:21
Or was there something more to it?
15:23
Um.
15:24
Yeah, I made it for her because the, it was a specialized baby towel where you
15:29
oftentimes, you dry a baby on a counter, you know, you're, you're dealing with it.
15:32
And I would pile up towels.
15:34
So I made a cushioned baby bath towel with wings.
15:37
That just made the process a lot easier.
15:39
I don't sell it anymore, uh, because the Manu manufacturing cost was so high.
15:44
I didn't know about over-engineering at the time.
15:47
I'm not trained in any of this.
15:48
I don't have any, I mean, I have a, a degree in education.
15:54
And uh, and so I didn't know, so we don't sell it anymore, but
15:58
when I made it, it was like, well, this is probably a good product.
16:01
I should give it a shot.
16:03
Maybe I'll test it out with some people in the neighborhood, put it on a Facebook
16:07
group, tried it out, you know, all that.
16:09
And then made a bunch and put it on Amazon.
16:12
And I was like, well, that's a pretty good way to test a product.
16:16
Put it on Amazon, see if people will part with their money for it.
16:20
And they did.
16:22
And it, it was hard.
16:23
The problem with that product too, was also as an inventor, you're always
16:28
having to explain to people what it is.
16:30
It's not like, here's a mouse, here's why my mouse is better.
16:36
It's like, here's my invention.
16:38
Let me explain to you the problem.
16:40
Let me tell you how we are approach to it.
16:41
Let me tell you how it's gonna, you know, so it was kind of a, it was
16:44
a complicated product like that, but I was just like, let's try.
16:49
I've never had like a fear of, um, failing in that way.
16:54
I'm just like, so maybe people won't like it and that's fine.
16:57
But that's how it all began.
16:59
Fascinating.
17:00
the next product was also made for Marlo, my daughter.
17:03
So
17:04
and,
17:05
and thus, the journey began.
17:06
yep.
17:07
And it was like something like every year and a half or so, every
17:10
two years we put out a new product and a couple, I'm very, I'm also
17:14
very quick to get rid of products.
17:16
If it's not working for the catalog, meaning like I, you're gone, like, there
17:21
was a product called Beekeepers, which build your own divided plate, but it
17:24
was me trying to solve the food storage problem going back, you know, before
17:29
the s shell line, the silicone line.
17:32
And I was just like, this just isn't the way.
17:34
It's not taking, I think it's not taking for a reason.
17:36
This isn't the way.
17:37
So even though I'd invested in the, the tooling and all that, I was like,
17:41
this isn't the way, this isn't the one.
17:42
Keep going, keep trying.
17:44
And I sat with the problem for years, I'd say saw Shell was the longest
17:51
development timeline that we've had for any of the products because the
17:55
getting to the solution, getting to the solution, and then making it excellent.
18:02
So.
18:03
The, the solution to the problem and then the technical elements of it.
18:06
I'm still, I'm still perfecting it.
18:09
Every version, it's like imperceptible to the eye, but it's different.
18:12
It's different every time.
18:14
The lock is a fraction of a millimeter, you know, longer.
18:19
Mm-hmm.
18:20
so, yeah, and I just move on.
18:24
It's, it's the resilience and it's, I'm fine with changing my mind and
18:28
I feel like I do that constantly.
18:30
It feels like, whilst in one sense there's a personal aspect to this story because
18:34
your daughter's involved, um, I. Normally when people are personally attached to
18:40
something, when there's that emotional buy-in, it's very hard to let things go.
18:44
But it sounds like you, you sort of found the best of both worlds.
18:48
Yeah.
18:49
I, I, and I think the way, one of the ways to get around that is to
18:52
go, it never stops being, it never stops being part of the journey.
18:56
You're, you're letting it go in the way of your, you're not selling them
19:00
anymore, you're not manufacturing them anymore, but it doesn't stop that
19:04
it got you to the next place, right?
19:06
So those beekeepers that aren't sold anymore, they were a necessary stepping
19:12
stone to the saw shell line, which is thankfully extremely successful.
19:17
Um.
19:18
But if I hadn't really identified, that's not the way and that's not
19:22
what's resonating with people and here's what's wrong with it, I don't think
19:25
I would've come to this off shelf.
19:29
So, so the personal attachment, just like so many things that we
19:35
have, you know, let that memory and that importance in the journey be
19:41
the thing you hold onto, not keep.
19:44
Banging your head against a wall.
19:45
Why isn't it selling?
19:46
Why isn't it this, I, I know it can be this and it's not.
19:49
You know what I mean?
19:50
Like,
19:53
let it be where it belongs in the past and that helps me 'cause it didn't go away.
19:58
Well, it's a, it's, I think it's a beautiful way of thinking about it,
20:02
you know, and, and reframing it.
20:03
It's like, well, this is, this is a stepping stone on the journey.
20:06
This
20:06
is something that we've got to do, but it, it is part of the journey.
20:10
At some point, we leave that part, and that's, that's actually quite
20:13
a, a, a good way of reframing it, I think, because I do see a lot of
20:17
people get emotionally attached to things and they just can't let it go.
20:21
They can't let it go.
20:22
I talk to a lot of my friends deal with that.
20:24
Like we, I have a lot of friends who are in similar businesses, you know, um, in
20:28
the same kind of place in the journey.
20:29
I see them struggle with it.
20:30
Um, but also, I mean, obviously you probably tell my daughter is my why,
20:37
and so when I make choices and like I always wanna model the things.
20:41
That I want her to, you know, I want her to see, you know, and
20:45
hopefully she can adopt and, and just acceptance of certain things.
20:50
You know, being really looking at it, looking at the truth of the situation
20:54
and going, okay, well I've taken this to the end of the, you know, I've taken this
20:58
to the end of the line with this, let's.
21:00
Shift.
21:01
Let's move on.
21:01
Let's put it where it belongs.
21:03
You know?
21:04
And, and doing it in a healthy way is really important for me.
21:09
And we've taken a lot of hits in this business.
21:11
We've had a lot of low points.
21:13
And I feel like what carried me and sometimes is no, I wanna model resilience.
21:17
The data's telling me things are working.
21:20
It doesn't feel like it.
21:21
And it feels like the luck isn't coming through, but the data's telling
21:25
me it's working, so I, I can't stop.
21:27
'cause that's not.
21:29
That, that's not the thing I wanna model.
21:31
It's not the thing that will feel good for me.
21:34
Um, and so those are the kind of things that keep me going.
21:37
So it's, it's really so much about resilience and as much as, you
21:40
know, the words overused, pivoting in, in a million different ways.
21:44
Well, yeah, it is.
21:45
I think that's resilience is not necessarily trying to flog
21:50
a dead horse to, to, you know, for a, a good old English
21:53
expression resilience, like you say, is learning what's working now and figuring
21:57
out what's gonna work tomorrow and, and being able to adapt from one to
22:00
the other with any, without any loss of enthusiasm or momentum.
22:03
To quote Churchill, it's not quite Churchill's quote, but
22:06
Stopping is not quitting.
22:08
Do you know what I mean?
22:08
Stopping something doesn't mean you're quitting something.
22:12
It just means it's, it's just changed.
22:13
It's just moved.
22:14
And I think this is quite an important, I suppose it's, if I look back over
22:18
my e-comm career, it's one of those things where actually I've, I've
22:23
been okay a bit like yourself, Amy, to go, actually, that's not working.
22:26
I need to stop that now.
22:27
You know?
22:28
Um, and just, and just bring that background to where
22:31
it, where it needs to be.
22:33
Um, what's been your biggest learning, do you think, in e-commerce?
22:42
Feel the feelings, absorb the information, whatever.
22:45
It's right.
22:46
Like whatever it is, just, you know, something happened, absorb it, you
22:50
know, I hate to say like the, the age old, like learn from it, you know?
22:54
But take what you can feel the emotions.
22:57
Sometimes the hit is hard, you know, like obvious, you know, with
23:00
the tariff thing, not to harp on it, but like with the tariff thing.
23:03
Okay, listen, feel what you're gonna feel.
23:07
If you wanna feel something, feel it.
23:09
And then as quickly as you can.
23:11
Deal with it, you know, deal with it.
23:14
Go, okay, now you know, now we have this information.
23:19
And what was the original question?
23:22
Sorry?
23:22
You
23:22
What's been your biggest learning in
23:24
learning.
23:25
Yeah, so, okay, so I'm still, still on the train.
23:27
Sometimes it goes.
23:29
Um, but I feel like getting there faster, that's been the learning.
23:33
And I think I, I do think that doesn't necessarily come from discipline.
23:37
I think it comes through practice.
23:38
Mm-hmm.
23:40
Like knowing it's not the end of the world.
23:41
No.
23:42
And I have not seen an A situation that's come like from the outside.
23:47
That really is like, that's the thing.
23:50
It's just like, these are factors knowing, okay, this one's gonna hurt, this one's
23:54
gonna hurt, deal with it, move on.
23:56
And it, I think it just takes practice.
23:58
So if you're at the beginning of the journey.
24:01
Just remembering, okay, this is gonna be tougher to get from, you
24:05
know, here to here, uh, right now.
24:08
But I'll almost learn it's just a muscle to be developed.
24:11
And just know if you're in the beginning of the journey, just
24:14
know you'll, you'll get there.
24:16
So try to get there quicker.
24:17
And, uh, if you've been along the journey for a while and you're still struggling
24:21
with it, just remember you dealt with it.
24:24
You've done this a million times before.
24:26
If you are years into your journey, you have dealt with.
24:30
Problems, like whatever you're struggling with today, you've dealt
24:33
with something similar before.
24:35
Get there faster.
24:36
Yeah.
24:37
Very good.
24:38
Very good.
24:39
Hey, listen, if you're listening to the show, wherever you are in the world, and
24:41
you would like to hang with fellow e-com founders, uh, like Amy, then why not
24:47
think about joining the e-commerce Cohort?
24:49
The e-commerce Cohort are mastermind groups that meet around the world.
24:53
Uh, there's one in Australian, New Zealand.
24:54
There's one in the uk and there is one starting fairly soon in.
24:58
The us they are online groups, so you don't have to travel
25:01
and they're free to join.
25:03
You just get to meet e-commerce founders and get to chat about what's going on in
25:06
eCommmerce network with fellow eCommerce, shoot the breeze and figure out how to
25:11
run your e-commerce business better.
25:13
If you wanna know more about e-commerce Cohort, checkout
25:15
the eCommerce Podcast website.
25:16
There's a whole bunch of information on there.
25:19
I'm in there.
25:19
So come say, how's it?
25:20
It'd be great to meet you, uh, in the eCommerce cohorts.
25:23
More information at eCommerce Podcast net.
25:26
Amy, listen.
25:26
Um.
25:28
eCommerce is this big giant of stuff that you've got to think about.
25:33
Right?
25:34
Um, I and the, the less people, well, in some respects I've got quite a
25:39
lot of people in my eCom business.
25:40
I still have to think about all the stuff.
25:43
Um, I just don't have to think about the detail necessarily.
25:46
Um, what's been, I suppose, from an e-commerce point of view, the hardest
25:52
thing for you to wrap your head around that you is kind of taking you a bit of.
25:57
It's time to learn, but it's actually had quite a big impact on your
26:00
business, whether, I don't know, email marketing, Facebook ads, or whatever.
26:03
I'm just kind of curious.
26:06
It's a tough one because there's so, there's so much, um,
26:10
there, there really is there, there, it just depends on the, um, on the day.
26:16
Um, but I feel like, okay, some of the big ones, let's just talk about one of them.
26:21
Um, one of them is data for me is very, very, very hard and I had to find a way.
26:27
To make it work for me, so my spreadsheets might look so childish
26:31
to somebody, but they work for me.
26:33
I had to learn how to work with the data.
26:37
There's no getting around that, you know, and data, not just like, I'm
26:41
not talking about like sales data, performance data of organic posts.
26:48
Right.
26:48
Um, shifting to looking at some parts of the data more than others,
26:54
like this week alone, I'm like, no, I gotta focus on the meta ads.
26:57
I gotta focus on my cost to acquire the customer right now, because I
27:01
gotta work on every penny, every bit.
27:03
Now, especially with the news, like, I gotta work on it.
27:05
The RO ads is so nice to look at, right?
27:08
I'm like, oh, okay.
27:08
I am over this amount.
27:09
No, I really have to look at the cost right now.
27:13
Without the data, I can't do that.
27:15
You know, and okay, so what are the social posts that are taking off?
27:20
Okay, looks like microwave.
27:23
Microwave, like we talked about, microwaving, microwaving, microwave.
27:27
We tried to talk about lost lids that didn't hit.
27:30
That's all data too.
27:31
And I think for me, that's one of the ones I avoided.
27:36
I avoided it for so long because I didn't feel I had the natural skillset.
27:41
And I don't, I don't, it's spreadsheets, it's, it's really very difficult.
27:45
But for me, I had to, and just finally coming to terms with,
27:49
there's nobody coming in to save me
27:51
Mm-hmm.
27:51
Mm-hmm.
27:52
Nobody's coming in from the outside because I have to be
27:55
the one to see it all, no matter how many people are helping.
27:58
Like, but I have somebody on meta ads, you know, and I.
28:02
But I have to understand it.
28:03
In order to manage it, I have to understand it.
28:06
And so I'm not gonna use the term dumb it down 'cause it's not.
28:09
It's just a different way in.
28:11
So I had to find a different way in on the data.
28:14
And uh, the other one is social media because, what's the word?
28:20
It's not trends, but the way you work with, let's say
28:23
years ago, it was influencers.
28:25
Now, like my folks gonna be on more of the affiliate program
28:29
and it is different, you know?
28:31
Um, so looking right now, um, how to manage a program like that.
28:38
Um, but yeah, those are probably the big ones.
28:41
Like, 'cause marketing in general, and right now, you know, obviously
28:44
I'm talking about marketing, advertising, stuff like that.
28:47
Um, but they're a constant process.
28:51
They're a constant process.
28:53
And, um.
28:55
But yeah, I, I could literally sit here for like three hours
28:58
and answer this question.
29:00
Unfortunately,
29:01
Well, it's a really interesting question from my point of view,
29:04
because when people enter commerce.
29:07
There's you, you get into it and you kind of go, there is so much that
29:10
I don't, that I didn't know that, I don't know if that makes sense.
29:13
There's a, there's a whole
29:14
it's a whole world.
29:16
Yeah.
29:17
and knowing what to work on for my business, I think is half the problem.
29:20
So you, I think there's a temptation when you're starting out in
29:24
eCommerce to try and do everything.
29:25
I've gotta run Facebook ads, I've gotta run Google Ads, I've gotta
29:28
do the social media, I've gotta do product development, I've gotta do
29:30
branding, I've gotta do optimization.
29:32
I need to get into SEO, so I've gotta write blogs.
29:34
Do I need to do a YouTube channel?
29:36
Where's the podcast?
29:37
Do you know what I mean?
29:37
There's just
29:38
you, you look at it and you kind of go, oh, and then there's email marketing.
29:41
I've gotta build my email list and you, and you go, holy cow.
29:44
There's just so much to do out of, out of your own journey, what's been the
29:50
Well, if I may, if I may, I have a question.
29:52
So when you were about, let's say, I wouldn't say the number of years into the
29:57
business that I am, but kind of in the phase that I am, where it's like we were
29:59
at a certain point and now we're really growing, uh, fortunately, very fast.
30:04
Um.
30:05
What, if you remember, what were some of your biggest challenges
30:09
at that point in the business?
30:12
The biggest challenge, I think that we, it took me a while to realize it, right?
30:17
So it's not like I understood this at the time.
30:20
It's this thing that I understood looking back and tried to summarize
30:24
everything that went on at one point in my e-commerce journey, uh,
30:28
our business nearly went bankrupt.
30:31
Because of a number of reasons, but the main one being that we were turning over
30:37
around 6 million pounds at the time.
30:39
So what's that?
30:39
About seven or $8 million.
30:40
So we, we weren't small, but we weren't massive.
30:43
Um, and the supplier said to us, um, sent me a letter actually saying that
30:49
we're gonna change our pricing policy to a more you buy the more you pay policy.
30:54
Um, and because we, we were one of their biggest customers, our prices went up by
30:59
30% overnight and, uh, business halved within, inside of a couple of weeks.
31:04
And it was, it was really fascinating.
31:06
You know, I, I call it, um, I call it my 38 million pound, uh, lesson for
31:12
want of better expression because I think that's how much we lost in sales.
31:15
And so you've gotta learn from that, you know?
31:19
Yeah, there's definitely some lessons to learn there.
31:21
And what I realized was, um, Amy, that there are seven
31:26
key areas of e-comm, right?
31:29
You've got, um, product, you've got branding, you've got your
31:33
tech stack, you've got marketing, you've got optimization, you've got
31:37
the customer experience, and then you've got this whole growth aspect.
31:41
These sort of seven areas that you look at.
31:45
I realized that as a company we were good in one area, possibly two.
31:52
We were average in three of them and we were not great in two of them.
31:57
So the analogy that I use is we were a bit like the guy that goes
32:01
to the gym and just lifts, you know, just as excise to build his biceps.
32:06
Nothing else.
32:07
So he is got massive biceps, but it all looks at proportion
32:10
to the rest of his body.
32:12
And if I look back, I think in that phase, and we were growing massively
32:18
rapidly at the time as well, I would say, because we just focused in on what we
32:25
thought moved the needle for as there, and then we neglected other areas.
32:30
Whereas what I should have done was as things were growing and as we had the
32:34
resources invest in those areas to make sure that every, the whole business grew
32:39
at the right pace, if that makes sense.
32:42
And so that would be my answer.
32:46
Was SEO at the bottom.
32:48
I would Were were the things that gave you immediate returns, like the things
32:52
you focused on most and the things that were longer term returns fell or,
32:56
Yeah.
32:57
And you, and we tended to, like everybody, you focus on things
33:00
that you can measure, right?
33:01
So in fact, I'm writing a, a, my, my latest blog poster, which I'm writing
33:05
at the moment, is about measuring things you can't measure, like how
33:08
effective you are at storytelling, for
33:10
Yeah.
33:10
Whereas you can, you can measure if I run this ad, then I get this return.
33:15
Right?
33:15
It was a, and you focused in because that's what everybody told you to do,
33:19
right?
33:20
You, you, you focus in on those things, which you can measure, and what gets
33:24
measured gets managed and, you know, we hear these things all the time and, and
33:27
they're useful things to think about.
33:29
Um, but I, I think in a world which is obsessed with data
33:33
in, in many ways, it can be
33:35
problematic and you get, um, the analysis paralysis because there's so much data you
33:39
don't actually know what to do with it.
33:41
But yes, we, we would focus in on those things like we were hot on
33:47
Google ads, we were hot on Facebook.
33:49
We could measure those and you could crank those
33:51
Yep.
33:52
Um.
33:53
What that did was it gave you an instant feedback loop.
33:57
Um, and so you knew that you were growing today because of what you did yesterday,
34:01
and so all the other stuff which was a bit more like you would say,
34:04
medium term, bit more long term, bit more stuff that you can't measure,
34:08
that just went out the window.
34:09
I.
34:09
Yeah, I bet it ha, it's, I've done it too.
34:12
I've done it too, and I'm starting to, it's, it's interesting you bring it
34:16
up now 'cause it's one of the things that I'm like, this is my, like Q2,
34:21
like, 'cause um, we had talked in the pre-call, like we've changed off, um.
34:27
Our fulfillment, we're not doing anymore.
34:28
I'm not managing it all.
34:29
It's in a different state.
34:30
It's fantastic.
34:31
Which frees up, um, me not being involved in that means I can allocate
34:35
my time a little bit more, uh, wisely for the place in the business we are.
34:40
And, and that time is really going to, getting a big picture of where I'm at and
34:45
what of those things is getting, had been completely ignored and, and starting to
34:50
get a little bit, you know, up on that.
34:53
Mm-hmm.
34:54
Yeah.
34:55
It's a journey you go through, I think, and you, you figure these things out.
34:59
Um, as, as you go through it, I'm curious what's, what's moved the needle the most
35:04
for you, do you think, as a business?
35:06
What, what's worked the really well?
35:09
So it's so hard to say this, uh, because I think it's so not helpful.
35:15
Uh.
35:18
I'm so
35:19
curious right now.
35:20
the truth is the softshell line, the food storage line.
35:24
Okay.
35:24
It's so funny.
35:25
Um, uh, you know, you, you look at it, and we had some real luck in
35:31
the beginning, but when you look at, like, if you're looking at the, the
35:34
growth, um, you'll see that when the softshell launched, the game changed.
35:39
And, and, and fortunately that lifts all the products, right?
35:42
'cause now you have more people coming to the site.
35:44
You have more people seeing your social and all of that.
35:46
But, um.
35:48
Uh, the release of that product line really changed so much, but
35:54
I think the, the learning in that is that, so I leaned into it.
35:59
Okay.
36:00
I wanna talk about my daughter's invention all day long.
36:04
Okay?
36:04
That's what I wanna talk about.
36:05
I wanna post about Martha Parker every day, but if you look.
36:10
I don't, I talk about the saw shell now, like this is the one that's compelling.
36:14
This is the one that's getting you to the website.
36:16
This is what's making the difference.
36:18
This is what I'm gonna talk about and I'll sprinkle the others in.
36:21
Um, but that is what changed the game and then going.
36:24
Was it the Pareto principle or something about the 80, you know, 80 that, yeah.
36:30
Um, I'm going, I'm not fighting this anymore.
36:33
Like I am following that.
36:35
I am following that now.
36:36
You are getting all of my attention.
36:38
You know, you're getting 80%, you're getting all of that.
36:41
You, because that is the product, the change the game for the
36:44
business, and now it's working for the other products are lifted as a
36:48
Yeah, so that's your hero product, isn't it?
36:51
Anyways.
36:53
I think it's an interesting one that, uh, the listening to you talk about that.
36:56
And I think it's right that you press into it and you make it work,
36:59
you know, with your hero product.
37:00
And I can think on every website that I'm involved with, there is one product,
37:04
it, and it follows the 80 20 rule.
37:05
And it's your hero product and you have to, you have to
37:09
have it first in the search.
37:10
You have to have it first on the homepage.
37:11
And it, it makes a lot of sense to do that because that's the reason
37:14
why most people are there and it does lift your other products.
37:18
I also couldn't afford to, um, can't, couldn't afford to do meta ads for the
37:22
other products 'cause the price point is too low of those of the other products.
37:26
We try to keep everything accessible and, um, oh, there's something in this,
37:30
I think, so the reason we're able to do meta ads for the food containers.
37:35
For the soft shells is because people buy multiples.
37:38
Okay.
37:38
So like if you look at everything, I have nothing.
37:40
I don't think there's anything on our website that's, no, it's 1799
37:45
and under for a single thing, and that's the most expensive thing.
37:48
It's like we have 5 99 to, so if you're thinking of that and someone's coming to
37:52
the website to buy one, build a straw in a little pod, it's like 4 99 or about 4 99.
38:00
I can't advertise.
38:01
I can't advertise it.
38:02
You can post for organic, uh, but you can't advertise on that.
38:05
But if you think about it, the original softshell, which is the one that sells the
38:08
best, it's 14 point 99 retail on its own.
38:13
Um, but that I couldn't afford to advertise.
38:17
So I offer bundles and they're heavily discounted and they come with freebies.
38:22
So people are buying four with the stuff.
38:24
Now, that's where I can afford.
38:27
So I make that so compelling.
38:29
That's the really compelling offer.
38:31
My bundles, and now I can afford the ad spend.
38:36
Now I, I can afford it.
38:37
So, and you can see on the, the data shows me that that's what people are buying.
38:43
They're buying the multiples.
38:44
I can afford it.
38:45
Um, so it's the only one I advertise.
38:50
Fantastic.
38:51
Uh, if you wanna know more, check out big b little b.com and you can
38:55
see the, the soft shells on there.
38:57
I'm looking at them now.
38:58
One's got blueberries in which is making me slightly hungry.
39:00
Uh, blueberries is my favorite fruit.
39:04
All the, and, uh, I do my own photography, any of the product shots,
39:09
that's a skill that I've learned.
39:10
I've learned to do my own photography and, um, it's just a thing I've, I've
39:16
found that I enjoy, I do try to build in.
39:19
Um, I'm, you're not gonna find me easily outsourcing.
39:22
I mean, I'll, I do have some other photographers from time to time, but
39:27
I do like to find the things that I can spend time on in the business that
39:29
I truly enjoy, because my favorite thing is the product development.
39:32
You can't do that all the time, but I do enjoy the photography.
39:36
Uh,
39:38
they give you these little moments of pleasure, don't
39:40
I make time for it.
39:41
Yeah.
39:41
Yeah.
39:41
And why would you not?
39:42
I think it's, I think it's important to do that, um, you
39:45
know, whatever you, but I think the trick is not to get just into that.
39:48
Like,
39:49
if you just spend all your time on photography,
39:50
you've got a, you've
39:51
No, but I, I've just found at this point in the business, I'm doing so much of the
39:57
things that I do not get that creative, part of me does not get filled up, right.
40:04
My e-commerce day to day, and I'm a, I'm a creative person, and so.
40:08
It's not something that I like go, oh, so I'm gonna spend all
40:12
my time doing the creative.
40:14
No, I just allow myself those opportunities that are important to do.
40:19
It's not like something that's not important, like it's important.
40:22
Um, content creation all does is very important.
40:25
Um, so I allow myself, um, but no, these days for, I am spending
40:31
most of the time doing stuff that.
40:33
Never had any background or never really enjoyed in a lot of cases,
40:38
really struggled with, and, but I'm getting better and it's
40:41
getting, it's getting easier.
40:44
It's getting so much easier actually
40:46
Well, and also you're reaping the rewards a bit.
40:48
Now, if your business is growing.
40:49
Yeah, that makes it a lot easier.
40:52
Yeah.
40:52
The day to day is a lot easier when you're, when it's, you know, the fruits
40:57
of your labor are showing it's a little tougher when they're not so, you know.
41:02
That does help.
41:03
it really, I mean, I've managed businesses where there's been rapid
41:06
growth and I've managed businesses where there's been rapid decline, and it's
41:11
definitely more fun when there's rapid
41:13
growth.
41:14
Um, it definitely more fun.
41:16
What's your, um, I mean you've mentioned the tariffs.
41:19
Um, is, is that the biggest thing you are, you are kind of thinking about at
41:27
the moment that could maybe derail you?
41:29
Not completely, but a little bit.
41:31
Is there is or is there something else top of mind?
41:33
Um, it's definitely the.
41:37
The issue of the day, right?
41:41
Like, and this will be something I'm working on, but I, I don't
41:43
feel that I'll be drilled by it.
41:46
It changes things.
41:47
It, it's, you know, if the margins are gonna close a little bit,
41:51
then it probably means fewer big sales and, you know, maybe.
41:56
Turning a few things, but um, it's not a huge big deal, but it
42:00
is the thing of the day and it is the thing we have to plan for.
42:03
But like a couple weeks ago, the bill for our latest container of inventory was
42:08
due, and that was the concern of the, the, you know, you're hand when you're handing
42:12
over just huge amount of cash and you're like, okay, it's, and it wasn't a problem.
42:17
Thankfully, you know, we.
42:19
Plan to pay the bill, but it's just, you know what I mean?
42:21
In that moment you're like, okay, let's move this and that.
42:23
So it really just depends when you ask me, like, there's nothing,
42:26
there's nothing scaring me right now.
42:28
Inventory will, I think, will scare me.
42:32
I don't know that that's gonna go away because each time we
42:35
order, we order more and more,
42:37
which means, you know, you're taking like everything you have
42:40
so you can have even more delle.
42:43
Um, so that always.
42:44
Stresses me out, but like I've heard that a billion times over, you know, and, and
42:49
every time, even if you have presales, it still is like, it feels like such a risk.
42:54
Like what if people get over this?
42:56
Or what if, what if, what if, what if?
42:59
But I don't feel that there's anything, um, on the horizon,
43:05
and especially because.
43:07
I'm not saying people need a soft shell, I'm not saying
43:11
they like need our scrubbing.
43:13
Like there's other, you know, things you can, you can have, but we don't sell
43:17
stuff that's just purely superfluous.
43:19
Like, these are things that help your life.
43:21
There's, they're meant to be convenient, you know, and so it's not just like,
43:25
oh, it's gonna be the first thing people say goodbye to with thing.
43:29
So I'm not, I'm not.
43:31
Overly concerned.
43:33
Um, it, I'm definitely going to be some of the things I'm working on though.
43:38
Right now that, you know, I don't let this news derail me from the other priorities.
43:44
Like I'm setting up a new affiliate program.
43:46
That is still happening right now.
43:48
That's still happening.
43:49
My meetings are tomorrow.
43:50
Like that's what we're doing.
43:52
That's not gonna change.
43:53
Um, so the priorities remain the priorities for me, and I think that's
43:58
something I've learned as well.
43:59
Like, I don't let other things.
44:02
Take my attention anymore, like everybody's influx of emails can't
44:06
be the thing I do first or the most important thing of the day, right?
44:11
The important thing of the day has to remain that, right?
44:14
And affiliate marketing is part of my plan for this year.
44:18
So that's gonna happen no matter what I have to do with the news.
44:22
So.
44:23
Fantastic.
44:24
Fantastic.
44:25
Amy, I've got to the stage of the show where I am gonna ask
44:28
you for question for Matt.
44:29
This is where you give me a question, I'm gonna go away
44:32
and answer it on social media.
44:34
So what is your question for me?
44:38
So I have to, so this is an assumption built in, so
44:43
correct me if I'm wrong there.
44:45
I assume there was a time then you, you just perhaps didn't want to do it.
44:53
It wasn't feeling.
44:53
Did you ever have a moment where you're just like, I don't know if this is it.
44:56
I don't know if you can, I don't know if I can hack it.
44:58
I don't know if I can get past this hurdle.
45:00
I just, from a, like, there's too much negative happening right then.
45:05
And you're feeling it, right?
45:07
If you've had that, what got you over it or what few things got you past it?
45:14
Fantastic.
45:15
I will answer that question over on LinkedIn.
45:17
If you wanna know my answer to the question, come find me
45:19
at Matt Edmundson on LinkedIn.
45:21
I think that's probably one of the best questions I've been asked yet.
45:23
Amy, I'm not gonna lie, I think that's a very, very good question.
45:26
I'm looking forward to answering this
45:27
I'm looking forward to reading it.
45:29
Yeah, yeah, I'll tag you in the post,
45:31
no doubt.
45:31
Now, um, if people wanna reach you, if they wanna find out more about what
45:36
you do, what's the best way to do that?
45:39
Um, you can find us on through the website.
45:41
You'll see our social handles.
45:43
You find us on Instagram, @bigbee_lilbee, L-I-L-B-E-E.
45:49
Uh, the company is Big Bee Little Bee like a buzzing bee, but you can
45:51
find, you can find us everywhere.
45:53
And, um.
45:55
I love, I really do love talking to, to community members who are, you know, in
46:01
the same, in the same journey, you know, even no matter what point you're in.
46:05
So don't hesitate.
46:07
Fantastic.
46:08
Well, we will of course link to the website in the show notes, which,
46:13
you know, if you're just on a podcast app, you can just literally scroll
46:16
down as long as it's safe to do so you're not driving, of course.
46:19
Uh, and just click the link and it'll take you through to Amens site.
46:21
And of course, if you sign up to the email.
46:23
The link will also be in the email.
46:26
Yes, it will.
46:27
So, uh, check that out as well.
46:29
Amy, listen, I have tightly enjoyed our conversation.
46:32
One of the things I like to do.
46:35
I should have told you this before we hit record.
46:36
I'm really sorry.
46:37
I just realized I didn't tell you everyone's listening.
46:40
What did he not say?
46:42
Um, one of the things I like to do is, uh, I have this thing at the end,
46:47
this sort of last minute or so of the show called Save the Best Tool Last.
46:51
Uh, and so I'm curious for those that you know, stay to the end and listen
46:55
to the end, like to have a little bit of extra value, uh, what's your, um.
47:02
I guess, what's your top tip?
47:03
What would you, what's one thing that you'd maybe have not said that
47:06
you think would be super, super helpful for, for people out there?
47:10
So.
47:12
I'd say don't let the fear of failing publicly stop you from
47:17
making choices that you need to make.
47:20
Okay.
47:21
I've failed publicly.
47:23
Um, I've succeeded publicly and I. Pretty much no one's
47:30
paying attention, pretty much.
47:32
No one's paying attention.
47:33
You know what I mean?
47:33
They, and if they're paying attention, they're paying attention
47:37
for the 0.3 seconds of attention it takes to, you know what I mean?
47:41
To, to look at a post,
47:42
and then you're gone.
47:44
You know, it, it may make you not feel good to hear it, I don't know,
47:48
but like people aren't paying as much attention to your choices.
47:53
Your successes and failures as you may think they are.
47:56
So just, just do it.
47:57
If it feels right, like just, just do it.
48:00
And if it doesn't work out, they only thought about it for 0.3 the second.
48:05
So I just do it.
48:07
You know, there's gonna be so many choices.
48:09
There's gonna be so many risks.
48:10
You have to take so many, you know, ventures outside of your
48:13
comfort zone, no one's watching.
48:15
Mm-hmm.
48:16
Brilliant.
48:17
Amy, thank you so much.
48:19
Uh, loved,
48:20
loved, loved our conversation.
48:22
Thank
48:22
you.
48:22
for coming on.
48:24
Uh, and thank you for listening to the show.
48:25
Like I say, if you wanna know more, head over to ecommerce-podcast.net.
48:29
Um, but a big shout out to the team, uh, at Podjunction
48:31
that put the podcast together.
48:33
Thanks to Josh Edmundson for writing the theme music, uh, and to all
48:36
you eCommerce fanboys out there a bit like me, all you eCommercers.
48:40
fun with it.
48:40
Thank you, Amy, for joining us.
48:42
Everybody else.
48:43
I will see you next week.
48:44
That's it from myself.
48:45
That's it from Amy.
48:46
Bye for now.