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The Slow Build in Romantic Relationships · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Gaiman Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Matt Lanzitle and joining me today is my CO host, Michael DiIorio. Welcome. Okay, today we are talking about, it's a shorter episode, we're talking about the, a slow build in romantic relationships. And I'm just going to dive right in, we're just going to hop right in. I'm going to do a little mini monologue, but it's more so just I want to share a little bit about why I was inspired to choose this topic. The Slow Build. So I am have just completed a short, about three month long relationship that was the opposite of the slow build. It was the crazy momentum, the crazy intensity, the chemistry, the attraction. And we both got completely swept up in this, in this energy. So I figured, you know what? I want to talk about the importance of the slow build and the importance of if you recognize. I know a lot of us in the gay, gay world, we want to have a lot of attraction, we want to be attracted to our partners. But I do think there's something to be said if, if there's a fire raging from the very beginning. You don't even know this person, but there's a fire raging, right? I'm learning that it's important to have a spark, but you don't want the full fire. You want to have a spark. So then you can put some wood on and you can build this fire together as you get to know each other. And in this case, there was a full fledged fire from the very beginning, which means that there was a lot of wounding that was coming together. There was trauma, bonding, there was limerence, there was all these things that were intensifying this connection, right? So there's lots of beauty about that. We had a great time, great sex, all the, all the things. But when it comes to being able to really, truly be based in reality and not fantasy, right, you get to a certain point, usually that three month mark, which is what it made it to, you start to notice incompatibility, you start to notice deceit, right? People not being honest because they really want it to work and they're living in this fantasy world, but they're, there's not the compatibility, there's not the security, there's not the trust and the knowingness to be able to actually make it work into a secure relationship. So this is, this was my intention for for doing this. So I want to unpack a couple things. So what is a healthy pace for a romantic relationship? What are the consequences if we go too fast in a relationship? And what are some of the ways that we can control the pace in the relationship? These are three really important pillars that I want to unpack. And. Yeah. So I think that's. That's kind of the main pieces. So let's just start with. With this first question here. So what is a healthy pace for a romantic relationship?
• 2:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:56
  Speaker A: And actually, wait.
• 2:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:58
  Speaker A: Has this ever happened to you? Let's start there. Let's. Like, have you gone too fast in relationships and kind of lost yourself or lost sight of who this person actually is? Give us a little bit of insider scoop from Michael's world.
• 3:12
  Speaker B: First of all, and he's a. Does this person listen to this podcast? Your. Your person?
• 3:17
  Speaker A: I. I don't think so, but he might now. I have no idea. Okay.
• 3:20
  Speaker B: Okay. Okay. So I think what's. What's happened to me? I don't know if this is a version of it, but I think I certainly have gotten swept up in the fantasy. And we've. We've talked about that. Like, you know, don't fall in love with the fantasy. I have fallen in love with the fantasy, and I think they go together. Probably I wouldn't have fallen in love with the fantasy if I had just slowed down.
• 3:39
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:40
  Speaker B: So I do. And I have done that. And I know exactly what you mean about, like, that. That fire from. From within, and you want to just add, like, one piece of wood at a time. I'd have a bonfire, blowout, and the whole house down. So I get that. That resonates very well with me.
• 3:56
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:58
  Speaker B: You know, in the previous episode, I said I want butterflies in my stomach, but not ulcers.
• 4:03
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 4:04
  Speaker B: Similar thing. So I. I do that. I kind of fall in love with the fantasy, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, are you the one? Really quickly? And my brain will do that. Luckily, I'm aware of my pattern, obviously, So I see it. I see it happening now. But your original question is, like, has that happened where it's gone? Like, it's gone a big burn and then fallen very quickly. I think only sexually, which tends to. To happen with me. Like, there's a really strong sexual connection.
• 4:27
  Speaker A: Desire.
• 4:28
  Speaker B: I don't know if that's been the case so much emotionally, but I certainly have gotten ahead of myself that. That I will say, like, in my own mind, I've created a fantasy of me and Some person together, and he's just like, no, what are you talking about? That was never. That was never gonna happen. Like, okay, I should slow down. I should slow this down because I clearly got ahead of myself. So that's my. That's my flavor of it.
• 4:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's actually highly empathic people, highly sensitive people are actually really good at filling in the gaps of where. Where we wouldn't really know where this person's not filling it in for you, whether it's an avoidant person. So we' at filling in the gaps because we have a rich inner world. But we're like. We fantasize about the, you know, over music. We fantasize different things, so we're filling in the gaps. And a lot of times we can create limerence. We can create this idea of what the relationship actually is, like romanticizing it when it's not actually at that milestone yet.
• 5:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I know a lot of guys do that. I know a lot of guys do that. Yeah.
• 5:24
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Why. Why do you think. Why do you think we do this?
• 5:28
  Speaker B: I don't know. For me, I think it's just because you want it so bad and when you want something so bad, like you. You fill in the blanks and you kind of. Yeah, well, it's like a longing. It's like, I want this and this. This must be it. And then I think what happens is when we don't have. When we don't get it and you've been heartbroken or rejected or all the things that happen to you is it's. It's easy to get. Go the opposite way and get jaded. Yeah, everyone sucks. No one's good and. And, you know, it's hard not. You don't want to do that either. You want to find a nice happy medium where you are taking it at a pace that's right for you. And I think, personally, I think that's very, very subjective. But, yeah, you don't want to get jaded to the fact that you put up walls in your garden, which we've talked a lot about here. But you also don't want to, like, do what I've done in the past and, like, create stories where there aren't any.
• 6:15
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think as gay men, I think we have. There's a lot of things that can misalign us, you know, top, bottom verse. All these things mask femme preferences, age. Like, there's so many things that come into play with lifestyle choices, values, all these sorts of things. I think that's true for anybody. But so when you finally find somebody that you do have your key values aligned, or at least it appears to be that way, you're like, yeah, like, I want to put a ring on it, right? I want to lock this down because it feels so good. I've been waiting so long to feel this, right? So we want to rush and we want to, but it's. The nervous system has a pace and our mind has a pace, and the mind's always like, like, way ahead of where the nervous system can handle. And this is what happened to me, right? My mind was running wild, and it was like, this is so fun. Trotting off on my horse. And it was like. And then my nervous system's like, whoa, whoa. Like, constantly pumping the brakes, which for me showed up as anxiety, right? Just total anxiety, preoccupation, loss of appetite, not sleeping. So my system was just, like, totally, you know, out of whack, because I wasn't listening. I wasn't truly listening to. So I'm a firm believer, like, a healthy pace for a romantic relationship will be very different for everybody, but it'll be dictated by the nervous system of the person, not. Not the mind.
• 7:43
  Speaker B: Let me ask you this, then, looking back now that you have the benefit of retrospect, what were some of the red flags that you kind of glossed over in the early. Like, as early, earliest ones you could remember that you just didn't listen to your nervous system and you kept going.
• 7:56
  Speaker A: Just value misalignments like crazy. Like, so he likes to drink and. And party and do drugs and these sorts of things. And I don't. Right. And it was. It wasn't like, full on, like, every weekend kind of things, but it's. It's in his recent past, like, very recent past. So for me, it's like you don't have enough space. You know, he said he wanted to live sober and these sort of things, but he didn't have enough space between all of those behaviors that he was engaging in prior to meeting me and then. And then meeting me. It's like, you got have some time to live that way and to choose those things because you want to choose them, right? Not because you want to be with me.
• 8:31
  Speaker B: You know, what made you override that in that moment?
• 8:35
  Speaker A: Purely physical connection. We had a very strong physical connection. And it's very rare for me to find that. Like, I just, like, I've said this on the podcast before. Like, there I could count on, like, probably both my hands, like, guys that I've been like, whoa, like, this person is just like super attractive to me. And they're captivating and. And I had that right with, with him. But it's, you know, you not. You got to have the other pieces. The spiritual, the mental and the, the emotional have to be there too, not just the physical.
• 9:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, and you answered it as well. So if. To go back to your earlier question of why do we do this? It's that too. It's the longing. Like, I think we want it so bad. And because we're dealing with such a small pool of eligible guys, again going with all the stuff, like when you find one that like, matches even just like three criteria, you're like, oh my God. Know that scarcity mindset comes in. It's like, oh my gosh, I found one. This. This must be the one. So it's the longing and wanting it really bad. And also that scarcity mindset. Like, there are not many fish in the sea, so I gotta grab onto what I can.
• 9:34
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me. It's like, if I let this go, if I let this fish go, am I, am I. Is a better fish gonna come? Right? And like, usually my mind goes, no, because I've just went however long without sex because I've got. I'm not just gonna share my body with anybody. So I'm like, finally when it arrives, I'm like, I got to keep this around, right? So that's, that's my work is like just trusting that there's. The next person's going to come. But you have to. The universe is always testing me with this sort of stuff. And I keep abandoning myself and I'm like this. My lesson is to keep. Is to maintain the slow build, stay in my center. Listen to my intuition, be guided, right? Let my nervous system finally have its. Its time in the sun and like, and. And then I'll be led to the promised land. I really do believe that. But I keep overriding my own nervous system.
• 10:25
  Speaker B: What, what was the breaking point for you? Like, it sounds like you saw the red flags, the values of misalignment. You kept going. You kept going. But at some point, obviously something changed. What was the shift?
• 10:35
  Speaker A: Just deceit. Lying, like, catching him lying. And I was like, okay, this is why my nervous system's been jacked up this whole time. Because he wasn't being truthful, right? I think he, he wanted to be what he was lying about. He wanted to be those things, but he, he wasn't right? And I wanted to believe him and. Right. So I was lying to myself.
• 10:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. Such good insight.
• 10:58
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 10:58
  Speaker B: The things that we gloss over. We believe what we want to believe because it's convenient or because we want it, not because it's true all the time.
• 11:04
  Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. So what would you say is a healthy pace for a romantic relationship if you were to kind of gauge it?
• 11:11
  Speaker B: I don't know, It's subjective, I think. Right. It really depends on where I'm at in my life and what's going on. If it's, if it's a romantic relationship I'm, I'm looking for, and I am, then I really do slow down. And actually that, that's, that's a tell I have and my friends will know this too. If I don't introduce people to guys that I'm seeing really quickly, if I don't talk about them very much, then they're like, oh, this is serious. Or if I don't sleep with them very quickly, then that's how I know. I'm like, oh, I really like this guy. And so I think a healthy pace for me, I mean, I don't know how to answer that. It is very subjective. I am very intuitive. I just go with how I feel. So if I'm on a date with somebody and I like them, I definitely for sure know that if I like somebody in that way on a first date, I for sure do not want to sleep with them.
• 11:57
  Speaker A: That is, yeah, sure.
• 11:59
  Speaker B: If I don't have that connection, compatibility is like, okay, this person's going to be a good long term partner. Then I'm like, okay, let's just have some fun and do what that is. But another piece is I will look for consistent communication. Not every day necessarily, especially in the beginning, but like checking in, how was your day today? How was your week? What's going on? Like, what's new? That I look for just as a kind of common thread. Like I just like having someone in my life to like check in on and will check in on me. But yeah, I don't, I can't tell you in like, in terms of this many days or this many weeks. It, it is very much a felt sense.
• 12:33
  Speaker A: Yeah, it is a felt sense. I think frequency plays a role.
• 12:37
  Speaker B: Right.
• 12:37
  Speaker A: Like if you're seeing them every day, talking like constantly, like these sorts of things, that what will end up happening and having sex, I do think that's a big one because when we have sex with somebody, we're merging. We're merging DNA, we're merging energy, we're oxytocin and dopamine are flooding our brain. So we do become clouded. Our judgment becomes clouded. So I do think, you know, pausing. That's why the slow build, like, maybe for the first date, don't have sex, second date, maybe it's like kissing, a little bit of making out, and you're gradually, slowly building that. If we go straight into, like, hardcore sex, it can definitely. It can make us feel like we are closer to this person than maybe we actually are.
• 13:19
  Speaker B: Yeah. And that's. That's one of the reasons why. Another reason is it's kind of like a. A test for me and for him. If he just, like, I'll know where he stands. If he just. If he's, like, pissed off that we didn't have sex or whatever, I'm like, okay, well, obviously you want something. That. That's not what I'm looking for, at least in this moment. And I like. I like the fact that it gets. Attraction gets to build. There's something about that tension, that sexual tension that builds over one or two dates, three dates, where it's like, okay, I. I cannot wait to rip your clothes off. And that's going to be really fun if that happens. It's not like, just. It's not giving into that urge right away. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I give into that urge right away sometimes very quickly. But if I like somebody, then I like to also build the tension as well. And that can be very fun in its own way.
• 14:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Like that. There was something I was gonna say, but it's. It's evaporated. It'll come back. If it's meant to be shared. Okay, let's just unpack a few of the consequences of going too fast. What happens when we go too fast?
• 14:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, you make. You make a fantasy. I love what you had said about the chemicals in your brain. It is very much a chemical thing. And in that state, it's very easy to build a fantasy. I think you get hurt. I think you can, you know, like, we just talked about, override some of your standards and boundaries. We had a whole episode about that. And the other thing with going too fast is. Yeah, you're kind of doing a disservice to yourself in the long run because these landmines are going to show up at some point. And if you haven't done your due diligence by taking it slow and kind of assessing these things at a pace that's right for you, you're going to be kind of far Ahead in the game, three months in, four months in, five months in and be like, oh, I didn't, I didn't, not that I didn't see it, but I ignored this. Now it's coming back to bite me and then it's a lot harder to end something months into it versus weeks into it.
• 15:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, good point. The thing came back. So I'll just go back to question one. So what is the healthy pace for a romantic relationship? I would say caution. Always just a bit of caution. And it's not about being mistrusting or suspicious or anything like that, but having a bit of caution as we're getting to know somebody like I think is healthy, right. It's like you don't know this person and so it's important to like, as we get to know somebody, like just have a bit of a guard up and then just letting it down as you get, as you hit milestones. Right. But if the wall, if the guard just completely comes down and you're, you're ready to merge with this person on date one, right. It's likely not a good thing. It's not healthy. It might be coming from things like anxious attachment or limerence or our wounding or whatever. It might be likely attachment wounding, that's where it's going to be coming from. So yeah, the consequences for sure. I would say limerence is the big, is a big one. So for those of you who don't know what limerence is, it's where we're, we focus on fantasy over reality essentially, which is going to be infused with intensity. Everything is about intensity. There's a lot of fire from the beginning, right? The fire is roaring. That's going to lead to limerence. So it's going to be like you're going to become preoccupied with the person. You're going to be riding emotional highs and lows, you're going to be reliant on them for emotional regulation. You know, you get up in the morning and you check your phone and if they didn't message you, you, you become dysregulated in limerence, right. And then when they message you, your nervous system calms down. So there can be mutual limerence as well where both people are feeling that way. But there can also be one sided limerence where one person is feeling that about, about them, the other person. So and when we have that slow build, we're really able to see these things. We're able to see that, okay, that part of me really, really wants merge with this person. But I'M going to practice boundaries with myself, right. I'm going to maintain my friendships, my hobbies, these sorts of things. So I have a question.
• 17:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If. If. If you're already. Let's say someone's listening to this and they're already being like, oh, shit, that's me. I'm kind of, like, going too fast here. What advice would you have to, like, slow it down, but while still telling this person, I'm still interested in you Very, very, very much. I don't want you to feel like I'm pushing away because I'm not interested. I just need to slow things down a bit for myself. Like, how would you recommend someone says that or does that?
• 17:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, I. I just think it comes down to boundaries. And a lot of times people are afraid of setting boundaries because they fear that it will lead to disconnection. So I'm just a firm believer that if you set that boundary and it leads to disconnection, then that is a sign that that's not the best relationship for you. But, yeah, speaking. And if you're dating somebody, that also is coming from this, from. From woundedness or anxiousness, it can be important to preface that wound for them and say, hey, I'm, like, super into you.
• 17:57
  Speaker B: I.
• 17:57
  Speaker A: But I'm noticing my nervous system is. We're going too fast for my own nervous system. Right. So can we take. Can we take a breather, right. And come back into our own centers? And I. What I would always say for myself and, you know, I've got to learn this too. This is something I'm still learning. It's like, I need some time to connect back in with myself, right? Because when I am connecting in a relationship, it's like, I'm. So. It feels intoxicating to be with this person, but I lose connection to myself because it's way more entertaining and fun and engaging to be, like, sexy and flirty and all the things over here, right? So I lose connection to what's going on with Matt's nervous system. What is Matt needing? And so it's really important to come to take time for myself. And so we. We kind of did that at the beginning, actually. And he. Tuesdays and Thursdays were nights that he would spend with friends, which was great because it would give me those two nights to just, like, be not in contact with him and I could come back into center. But then it started. That started to change, and there was just a lot of intensity of wanting time together and these sorts of things, and it just became too Much for my nervous system. And I think so. Yeah, it's. And that's. That's.
• 19:02
  Speaker B: That's it.
• 19:03
  Speaker A: That's. That's what we got to do in relationships, right? When we notice there's unmet needs or when we notice there's, you know, things that are bothering us or whatever, we have to be willing to have difficult conversations. And we have a podcast on that. So go listen to it. How to have difficult conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about how we can do this. So for people that want to slow things down, I think we've kind of just touched on that a little bit. But I did. I. So I. I talk about something called the relationship attachment model. Ram. The RAM model. And we've talked about this on several episodes. The secure attachment episode is a great one to watch, but it starts with knowing. And once you know, you can trust. And once you trust, you can rely. Once you rely, you can commit. And then this model is a Christian model, so they say once you commit, you can touch. But it's. That's not going to work for gay men. I always say you can slide touch right after. No, right after trust. Right after rely.
• 19:57
  Speaker B: You can.
• 19:57
  Speaker A: You can slide touch throughout this whole thing. From my perspective. And some people, they might even want to touch before they know. And that's totally okay. That's. There's no judgment here. But for me, I want to know somebody before they're touching me and I'm touching them and. But the reason why I like this so much is because it's like you focus on the one thing. It's like, I can't trust you because I don't know you. So I'm going to focus on knowing. Right. What does it mean to know somebody? It takes time to get to know somebody. So we have to be willing to have a bit of a slow, slower build, go on a few dates, get to know them, ask the right questions. And I do think a lot of people are really scared to ask questions, especially when it comes to values and lifestyle and even politics, these sorts of things, because it's like, it's date one or two. Like, I don't want to make it feel. I don't want to feel needy or like I'm interrogating them. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, I like to date with efficiency. I don't want to be going on a bunch of dates with somebody and then to find out that they're completely not, you know, value aligned to me. So I always ask you know, what are your drinking habits? Like, are you. Do you drink in excess? That's not something I want in a relationship. Right. And I know for some people, politics is a really important one. They want to make sure that they're dating somebody that has political alignment, these sorts of things. So I like this model. And then once we know somebody, we can start to build the trust.
• 21:09
  Speaker B: Right.
• 21:10
  Speaker A: And that trust is what is going to sustain secure relationship, in my opinion. Yeah.
• 21:16
  Speaker B: I love this model. And we've talked about it before. It's great. And then look for the evidence of each of those steps. Like, ask, what is my factual evidence? Not what is the story I created in my head. Like, oh, yeah, I know him. Oh, yeah, I trust him. Like, you know, we can kind of gloss over that. But, like, look for how has this person actually demonstrated reliability or trust or whatever that step is? And knowing. I mean, you don't need to know, like, this whole mental map of life. But I think the values is the most important thing. Like, do you know more or less where this person stands? At least enough to. At least enough to go to the next step.
• 21:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. I. So what I do normally is in my phone when I start dating somebody, I'll put red flags, yellow flags, green flags in my notes in my phone, and I have a folder with their name in it. And as I'm identifying these things, I will write them down because I think it's important. Right. And if I start to get a. Too much of accumulation of yellow and red flags, it's a sign for me to be like, to question the relationship. Right. But I also don't want to be suspicious and hope over focusing on negative things. So I have green flags, too. Like, how is this person showing up in ways that are meeting my needs? Right? Because I agree with you. We need to keep this grounded in reality, not fantasy. Because when relationships get grounded in fantasy, they. They're going to lead to disappointment and hurt and betrayal and all the things.
• 22:36
  Speaker B: If that note ever gets loose, Matt, you're gonna be in, like, the. The Matt Lansdell files.
• 22:42
  Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. I wonder what people have on me because I. Hey, I. Angel, like, what are my red flags that people are writing down for. For me, we're all. We're all just navigating this crazy relational paradigm, just hurting each other and loving each other and making each other crazy and. Yeah, it's a crazy world out there.
• 23:01
  Speaker B: I just thought of something that helps slow me down, too, is shifting it from. Especially if I really like somebody then I tend to, and I think a lot of us do this, put them on a bit of a pedestal. Yeah. And then I like to completely switch that up and ask has he earned that from me? So for example, has he earned a Friday night or Saturday night for me? Right. Like that's, that's sacred time for me. Or Sunday, Sunday is my most sacred time. I like Sundays alone. Has he earned meeting my friends? Has he earned coming up to my family cottage? Like all of these things, like I, I, I frame it as a, as an earning, like these things are very sacred and important to me and I don't just invite anyone in. So it's like an access boundary and that's, that's how I look at it. And that helps slow me down. I'm like, oh yeah. You know, I'm just really excited. He's really hot. So I want to bring him to everything like that. That's not a good reason for me personally.
• 23:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I like that access boundary. That's really, really important. And I do agree that as you move on that continu I commit, the access can expand. Right. And that's like when you'd be like, okay, I would want, I want to move in with you because I now know that I can rely on you and I can trust you and I know you. Right. So it's making sure that we get to these milestones. I, so I like that access boundary. That's a really good, good term. Yeah. And for me, I think a big one is to not self abandon and to maintain my own life and to make sure that I'm not building my life around this person who's just entered my life.
• 24:26
  Speaker B: Right.
• 24:26
  Speaker A: It's like I have friends in my life that have been there for a decade, two decades even. It's like I want to make sure that these relationships are maintained even though I'm super excited in this other area too. Right. Yeah.
• 24:39
  Speaker B: That's the great thing about having friends who know you, who are honest with you. They will check you if you ask, if you ask, sometimes if you don't ask. But if you ask, they, they can, they're a good objective party to be like, yeah, you seem to be like really into the sky or like really moving too fast. So you know where you can, I think, ask for feedback from people who you trust, who know you.
• 24:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Anything else is when it comes to what are some ways that you can control the pace of the relationship.
• 25:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, maybe committing to seeing each other or, yes, for me, living where I live, it's really easy to see someone, like, every day if I really wanted to.
• 25:20
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 25:21
  Speaker B: And so that sometimes I get so excited to see them because I love hanging out with them. So I'm like, I want to see you again. I want to see you again. So sometimes it could help to be like, okay, similar to what you had said with your guy. Like, these are. These are the nights. And it's not gonna be every night, but maybe once a week or. Or whatever works for you. And. And setting that, like, committing to that with one part of your brain, because the other part of your brain in the moment's gonna be like, no, no, I want them now. I want them now. So just kind of setting ahead of time, like a. A scheduler, maybe. Like, okay, Friday nights and Tuesday nights are when I see this guy. Other than that, I gotta focus on me. I'm gonna focus on my other friends, gonna focus on family, whatever else, whatever it is you have going on. Because I think what happens is when people get really excited, that person just kind of takes over their whole life, and all of a sudden you're like, okay, never mind. I'm not gonna go to my yoga class now. I'm gonna cancel that plan with that friend. Because you just want to spend all your time with that person.
• 26:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. I will say this. This is what I'm learning is healthy, secure love makes my nervous system feel calm and expansive, and limerence and anxious attachment and all this other stuff, it. It's makes my nervous system constrict. It makes it feel addictive. So I want to say, like, if you are in a relationship that you can't stop thinking about this person, and yes, it's exciting, but it feels like it's very dysregulating, it's probably not a healthy relationship.
• 26:39
  Speaker B: Right?
• 26:39
  Speaker A: Like, truly, I can't emphasize it enough. Healthy relationships make our nervous systems feel calm and not calm all the time. Because if we're in a healthy relationship and we're calm 80 of the time, and we have some conflict, conflict 20 of the time, and our nervous systems dysregulate, that's healthy ratio. Because you can't always be calm in every relationship. But if it's the inverse and you have 80 dysregulation and 20 calm, and likely the 20 calm is only when you're with that person. It's not a good relationship. Kidding.
• 27:07
  Speaker B: Flag. Red flag. Yeah.
• 27:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I also think two part of it is a time thing. So in my experience, gay men we have a lot of wounding around shame. We have a lot of wounding around rejection. And a lot of us don't want to be rejected. So we don't. Because we don't want to feel shame. So we are willing to. People, please. We're willing to say, yep, yep, I definitely don't want to live this way or I definitely want to live this way. Whatever. We, we conform and we, we try our best to make it work because we don't want conflict, we don't want to get rejected, we don't want a disconnection, these sorts of things. So a lot of us are actually deceiving one another because we are not willing to be authentic because it might lead to disconnection. And I think a lot of gay men are really, really good at being inauthentic. Right. And I say that with so much love because I definitely have been there and I know what it's like to not want to be an outlier or an outsider or to not belong or to not be rejected, these sorts of things. But I think one of the ways that we can mitigate that is like just having check ins and being authentic with the person that you're dating and saying, you know, like hey, like what are you like talking about real things and bringing real things into the conversation about values and that sort of thing. Don't be afraid to have those of kinds conversations and don't be afraid to be honest. Yeah. If it leads to disconnection, it means you're not compatible with that person and you're just, you're, you're mitigating further hurt that's going to come down the road eventually, right?
• 28:34
  Speaker B: Yeah. Very, very well said and very true. You're, you're right. It goes back to that scarcity mindset. It's like, oh, but there's not, there's not many people out there and so this is what I'm going to have to settle for. And, and he's great in all these ways. And then you kind of convince yourself that this is the man for you.
• 28:49
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 28:50
  Speaker B: But at what cost? And that self abandonment and everything you just said solely because we don't want to feel that rejection, which I totally get. Nobody wants to feel rejection. But yeah. It's also, you have to look at it like a life with this person or going down the. Not necessarily life, but going down. A relationship with this person also has its negative consequences. It's not like one's positive, one's negative. I'd rather get rejected today and save me, save Me, Terrible relationship down the road.
• 29:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my lesson is to listen to my intuition. It was pinging off from the beginning, and I. I overrode it because I was so physically and sexually drawn in. And I just gotta. I gotta listen.
• 29:29
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:30
  Speaker A: Gotta listen.
• 29:31
  Speaker B: I think for me, I get stuck in a. In a. I love. I love the chase, and I love chasing. And that's part of. Part of it is adrenaline. Part of it's an attachment, a wounding, like having to earn. Having to earn love. It's very, very, very. Michael. Yeah.
• 29:48
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:48
  Speaker B: So I know. I know that. That pattern, but the dopamine that comes from. Because I'm good at it. I'm good at chasing. I'm really good at it. And so I have to, like. It's this constant, like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't go down the road. Michael, stop. Michael, stop. Michael, stop. I see a hot guy who's, like, kind of not interested, and like, yeah, like, let's go.
• 30:08
  Speaker A: So I got.
• 30:09
  Speaker B: I got to make sure I don't do that. So it's really important that we all know our patterning and we all know what we do. And, you know, like. Like I just did. I kind of laugh at myself like that. Like, such a bad thing. You just be aware, like, okay, here I go again, doing that thing I do. Not a big deal. Just be aware and just choose another option. That's all.
• 30:26
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I have a similar pattern to you, and usually I do attract that. So nine out of ten guys I attract will be on that avoidance spectrum. And this guy wasn't. He was on the anxious spectrum. So we had this mutual limerence, which was like, oh, my God, it was so intoxicating. It was so intense. Yeah. Which is assigned something shifting. Because if I'm attracting a different type of attachment style, it means that something's shifting in my attachment style. So. Yeah. Getting closer to. You're getting there. Yeah, exactly. All right, well, thanks for tuning in to another episode and thanks, Michael, for sharing your wisdom as always, for everything at Gay Men's Brotherhood. You can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com come and join our events. Our coaching collection is in there as well. And you can subscribe to early access option on Apple to get a podcast two to three weeks in advance. If you love what we're creating, go over and support us on Apple. All right, much love, everybody.