Latest / Age Like a Badass Mother / Ep 123: Follow Your Longings. Stay Generative. Live Boldly. Advice From an 80-Year-Old Who Knows

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Ep 123: Follow Your Longings. Stay Generative. Live Boldly. Advice From an 80-Year-Old Who Knows · Age Like a Badass Mother

• 0:00
  Hi friend, my guest today is 80-year-old Barry Zukal, and she's a literal powerhouse.
• 0:06
  She broke the Maryland State standing deadlift record by lifting 176 pounds when she was 70 years old. She wants women to stop pleasing and start putting themselves first. You won't believe what we touched upon when talking about raising kids.
• 0:21
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• 1:02
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• 1:11
  And now here's Barry Zukall.
• 1:25
  Barry Zukal wasn't always bold.
• 1:27
  Like most women, she was raised to be good, to contort herself to meet societal expectations, and never offend. As a young teacher, she had become cute, likable, overextended, bored, and anxious. A traffic accident while she was driving drunk put her on the path to self-discovery, empathy, and adventure. Whether you're leading a team, raising a family, building a business, or reinventing your life, her new book.
• 1:52
  Bold will inspire you to stop being too good for your own good and to live life is uniquely yours and to lead with enthusiasm and courage rather than seek I love that part. Bold, how women play big by leading instead of pleasing is available now. Please welcome Barry Zukall.
• 2:13
  Hi, welcome.
• 2:15
  Hi, Lauren. Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:17
  I'm really delighted to be here.
• 2:19
  I I'm so delighted to talk to you and I ~ I wanna start by first of all, can I ask how old you are?
• 2:27
  Yes, I'm eighty. I'm I'll be eighty one in November.
• 2:30
  Okay. So you are just the kind of badass mother I want to talk to.
• 2:34
  ~ because I know that you started didn't you break a world record in powerlifting when you were seventy years old?
• 2:42
  Okay.
• 2:43
  Not a not a world record. I broke a Maryland's Maryland two Maryland state records when I was seventy.
• 2:47
  Okay, well that to me that's a world record.
• 2:49
  That's great. ~ that's incredible. So you didn't start weightlifting or powerlifting until you were seventy?
• 2:56
  Right. I ~ I got this notion and I you know, I pay attention to these notions when they come.
• 3:03
  When I was Yes.
• 3:04
  sixty eight that ~ I wanted to I thought it was called bodybuilding.
• 3:09
  I didn't even know what it was, but just the idea of lifting these heavy weights started to interest me.
• 3:13
  And so I couldn't find anybody for two years really to work with and then a new gym opened up and then ~ started going to that gym and then I started powerlifting and anyway I just loved it.
• 3:25
  I loved it from the first minute.
• 3:26
  Yeah.
• 3:27
  My gosh.
• 3:27
  That's in Run that.
• 3:28
  it's so you know, it kind of you're I the reason I wanted to talk to you when your PR person reached out to me was that I you've done so many things and and throughout your life, and we'll talk about but that you're Mm-hmm.
• 3:42
  still doing new things like, you know, Yes.
• 3:44
  writing this book and it seems like you're writing more than one book.
• 3:47
  Is that right?
• 3:48
  I am writing. I'm working on a fiction book now and ~ so I'll be doing that, but you know, there's other and I have another book.
• 3:56
  If I make it that far I'll write another book after that.
• 3:58
  So I've got several books going going on in my head right now.
• 4:01
  Yeah.
• 4:02
  Incredible.
• 4:03
  I mean, okay, we'll we're gonna come back to all that, but you know, you mentioned something really Mm-hmm.
• 4:08
  vulnerable in the intro that you were driving drunk.
• 4:12
  I mean, that's really putting Yeah, yeah.
• 4:13
  yourself out there to admit that, but that it led you to to this path.
• 4:17
  Can you can you talk a little bit about that?
• 4:20
  Yes. So ~ that was a hard time in my life.
• 4:24
  ~ Because I was I you know, I had done everything I was supposed to do.
• 4:30
  And you'll hear this from a lot of people.
• 4:32
  You know, they do everything they're supposed to do and things aren't going the way they're supposed to go.
• 4:35
  So I had done everything and ~ I was ready to meet somebody and get married.
• 4:40
  That was like the next thing on the line stuff and that wasn't happening and ~ you know, I was really bored.
• 4:48
  I was ~ you know dating a couple of married men rather than, you know, single men. I mean, I was just like hanging out, wasting time. And ~ anyway, and then, you know, drinking too much. So I had that accident.
• 5:05
  Fortunately it was late at night.
• 5:08
  Nobody else was even on the road.
• 5:09
  You know, I was the only one. But it didn't even occur to me that I was, you know, I could have hurt somebody else until, you know, after it happened. And ~ Anyway, so I had no idea what to do.
• 5:22
  I remember I I called up three ~ therapists and I left messages because of them, you know, answered the phone.
• 5:30
  And I s I said, I just, you know, I'm looking for a therapist, I don't know.
• 5:34
  Anyway, only one of them really g responded in a way that you know, I thought, well, maybe I could work with this guy.
• 5:41
  He was a psychiatrist. And he's the he's mentioned in the book.
• 5:44
  He was ~ he really got me on the path, you know, to thinking about myself and my life.
• 5:50
  as something way more important than I was thinking about it.
• 5:54
  So that that was the beginning of the kind of like the next chapter.
• 5:59
  What what kind of things did he point out to you or how did he Hmm.
• 6:02
  kind of get you thinking about yourself more importantly?
• 6:05
  Yes. He ~ first of all he asked me to write my autobiography.
• 6:11
  So I I sat down and I just wrote about you know my life for the first time I really looked at it. And ~ and then he said, we're gonna talk about for whom you exist, why you exist, and how you will exist.
• 6:28
  And the book is divided, you know, into those three sections. And Yeah, I saw that.
• 6:32
  yeah. And so all of a sudden I was like, whoa, this is ~ you know, I just felt like I could sit up a little taller.
• 6:40
  You know, it was very significant.
• 6:42
  He treated me, he took me so serio more seriously probably than anybody did in my life. And so it helped me to take myself more seriously.
• 6:50
  W okay, so let's go back to those three questions because I feel like those are pretty important. For whom do I exist?
• 6:56
  What I mean, I don't you know, you want to kind of say yourself, right? But but also Yeah.
• 7:02
  as a woman, of course we exist for our kids, for our partner. So how did you answer that?
• 7:08
  Well, I don't know what how I answered it back then.
• 7:10
  But I think well I do. I mean, I knew that I existed for everybody else and not for me, you know, at all. So, ~ you know, I was a school teacher, so I I ran an alternative ~ high school ~ program.
• 7:24
  And so I was existing for those kids and you know, they were troubled kids, so that took a lot.
• 7:31
  And then, you know, for the school and for my friends, for my my parents still had too much they were you know, too much of involved in my life. So and I think, you know, w I think when women, if they look at their schedules and they see where they spend their time, they'll see how much they're existing for other people.
• 7:50
  Because ~ that tells you a lot when you look at your own schedule and there's not ten minutes a day for yourself, right? So I think that's a ~ you know a way to kind of assess where you are with that in terms of who you exist for.
• 8:05
  Mm-hmm. Would you how would you answer it now?
• 8:07
  Now I would definitely say I exist for myself first.
• 8:09
  And and I not even first, it's like I exist for myself as much as I exist for anybody else.
• 8:17
  You know? ~ one of the things that one of the ~ women who's on the back cover of the book said that that was the most important thing, you know, or one of the most important things she learned, you know, working with me was that what she needed was just as important as what her kids needed and what her husband needed and her you know, her mother, mother in law, etcetera.
• 8:38
  that that was a big, big news to her.
• 8:41
  ~ you know, to to realize that and then start putting it into practice.
• 8:46
  ~ and knowing knowing that ~ she would not be liked all the time, you know, for the decisions she was making.
• 8:53
  Yeah. I mean, I think for me at this point in my life where my kids are grown, it's easier for me to say I exist for myself.
• 9:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:01
  But I mean, that's really hard when you are when you are raising a family.
• 9:05
  And then of course you don't want your husband to feel like he's, you know, comes in last place.
• 9:09
  I mean, I do. You turn yourself inside out, like you like you were saying.
• 9:12
  Exactly. Yes.
• 9:13
  But that that's one reason I really actually like this part of my life is because I had kids I don't feel like I n you know, could have answered that any other way, except for I exist Mm-hmm.
• 9:25
  for my kids and my husband for a long time.
• 9:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:28
  And so I love I love this part of my life and getting to explore who I am.
• 9:33
  I mean, I feel like a lot of women do, don't you? Yeah.
• 9:36
  Well, I yes, but at the same time, shouldn't the family support every member?
• 9:42
  Yes.
• 9:42
  Shouldn't I mean I I asked that question in genuine sincerity.
• 9:46
  I think the family should support every member, not just the children or the husband or you know, extended family, whatever. And I don't see why women should have to be the ones to sacrifice themselves ~ on the altar of family.
• 10:02
  So I feel very strongly about that.
• 10:04
  And I think I ev I say, I know this is like speaking like a heretic, but I think I even say, you know, what if your kids can't play?
• 10:12
  Ball this season. Perhaps you want to take a course and you can't transport them.
• 10:17
  ~ You know, would they be lesser human beings for that?
• 10:21
  Are they gonna, is it gonna ruin their lives?
• 10:23
  No, it is not. ~ You know, and I think that you know, we perpetuate this model of self-sacrifice for women in our families by being self-sacrificial.
• 10:36
  This is kind of like making me feel like, ha what? What was wrong with me?
• 10:40
  Ha ha ha.
• 10:42
  Like, yeah, I never would have thought, I would never tell my kids you can't do your sport because I gotta do something or Right.
• 10:48
  what and you're right. Why is it that everybody doesn't support the mother as Okay, I'm having my daughters like my kids listen to this podcast, even though I never have made them listen to one, because I think this is really important for when, Mm-hmm.
• 11:02
  you know, they become parents to Right.
• 11:04
  Have that yeah. my god, so ridiculous Right, right.
• 11:09
  that we don't think that way. ~ Well, it isn't ridiculous. It is societal programming.
• 11:13
  Yeah.
• 11:14
  It is patriarchal societal programming.
• 11:16
  Yes. Mm-hmm.
• 11:17
  That's exactly what it is. All this serves the the family and the patriarchy.
• 11:23
  ~ yeah.
• 11:23
  Yeah.
• 11:25
  And you know, it's funny because like I don't think I mean, I don't think that my husband would have on purpose said I mean, he sacrificed a lot too. He was a Sure.
• 11:36
  very good parent and he w really would have been like,~ you know, also he wouldn't have s told the kids, you can't play a sport because I can't Right.
• 11:44
  drive you or whatever. But I mean, I feel like it just never would have occurred to either one of us.
• 11:50
  But Mm-hmm. You're so right. Okay.
• 11:53
  For ~ why do I exist? ~ that's Mm, mm.
• 11:57
  such a deep qu like how did how would you answer that now?
• 12:01
  Yeah, I so now I exist to spread these ideas around.
• 12:06
  ~ this is the and and to keep writing, to keep talking, ~ not to give up ~ at any point,~ you know, not to main ~ you know, be discouraged for too long, ~ just to keep getting back up and talking about ideas so that women can start really thinking about them and they can start asking themselves these really important questions,~ that you know could change their lives and and cha I believed, you know, women when women change their lives, they change the lives of the family, they change the lives of their communities, and they could change the world.
• 12:45
  We could change the world. So that's what I'm after, Yeah. That's exact yes.
• 12:48
  to perpetuate the revolution.
• 12:52
  I know.
• 12:54
  my God. That's why I just like I l adore you.
• 12:57
  I think this is so smart. And I feel similar similarly that Mm-hmm.
• 13:01
  I am existing now to help women, you know, come into themselves and put themselves first.
• 13:09
  And, you know, if not now, when?
• 13:11
  Like you Right.
• 13:12
  you know, you only have a limited amount of time once you get to midlife and And it and you have as a woman probably spent so much time with, you know, raising your family, focusing on your career. Like what Yeah.
• 13:25
  is it you want to what's your legacy?
• 13:28
  What do you what do you not only your Yes.
• 13:30
  legacy, but what will fulfill you and Yeah.
• 13:33
  in this part of your life, the you know, the next chapter.
• 13:37
  Well, I think there's two things.
• 13:38
  There's you know, hearing the stories of women who ~ like it's gratifying to hear you be interested in these ideas and start to think about them and amplify them.
• 13:50
  And ~ that's that I feel like that's part of the legacy.
• 13:54
  Another thing that's happening that I I really can't talk about yet, but I did a lot of volunteering with one organization after I sold my business.
• 14:03
  And so they're expanding and they expect to be able to have an impact with a hundred thousand entrepreneurs over four years.
• 14:16
  And I'm gonna be a part of that process.
• 14:18
  And so I'm very excited about that.
• 14:20
  I mean, I that is, you know, that's that's a lot of Yeah.
• 14:23
  people and that's a lot of women in there and ~ you know, really people who are dedicated to making the world a better place.
• 14:30
  Yeah.
• 14:31
  That's exciting. That's really exciting.
• 14:33
  And I know we're going to talk about like your business and so forth that you had because you've you've done a lot of things.
• 14:39
  Okay, I want to get this last question.
• 14:41
  How will I exist? How would you answer that?
• 14:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:46
  I will exist being true to myself.
• 14:48
  I will exist ~ taking my longings and my ambitions seriously. I will div I will consider myself, I will exist in what I consider to be a divine space.
• 15:02
  so that I'm open to hearing, you know, from the divine. So th that's that's how I exist.
• 15:10
  Yeah.
• 15:10
  Okay, my answer is ditto. That's that's how I want to exist too.
• 15:16
  I mean, I feel like I'm working on that path, but yes, that's a that's Hello there. Good evening.
• 15:20
  such a a worthy path to be on.
• 15:23
  I love it. All right.
• 15:24
  And it's it's different than ~ I w the another way that I'll exist and I have existed throughout the years is when I exist ~ by facing things that come up and not putting them to the side or not ignoring them or putting them in the back of my head. You know, I really try and deal with things as they come up so they don't cloud my take my energy and you know, my time.
• 15:48
  Mm-hmm. That's a hundred percent how I yes, when I have something, I try to meet it head on, whether I need to grieve it, cry, like what I really Right.
• 15:59
  try to feel my feelings. And I I talked I've talked about this a number of times that you know my mom had her shortcomings as every parent does, I have too. But one thing she was so good at is she always told me that I deserve to feel how I'm feeling.
• 16:16
  Yeah.
• 16:16
  And I feel like enough people do not tell their children that.
• 16:19
  Right.
• 16:20
  And I think because, you know, I felt entitled to feel how I was feeling, Yeah.
• 16:26
  I have been pretty good at, you know, meeting the moment and feeling it and y working through whatever I have to work through and not I mean, yeah, sometimes I c compartmentalize.
• 16:37
  We all have to do that. But Yes, sure.
• 16:39
  I I try to you know, experience what I have to experience so I can move on or move or learn the lesson or whatever it is. Yeah.
• 16:48
  ~ my God. You're like so you're like you're like a a wise owl.
• 16:53
  You're just you are and just be like beautiful.
• 16:56
  Thank you. ~ You have this beautiful aura and you know, I just you remind me of you remind me of my aunt.
• 17:04
  ~ also, yeah, I assume you're from New York or you live in New York.
• 17:09
  that's so interesting. I lived in New York.
• 17:11
  I live Yeah.
• 17:12
  in D I live in D C. I've lived in Maryland for twenty eight years now.
• 17:15
  Well yeah, you said Maryland. Mm-hmm.
• 17:15
  I live in D C. Yeah, but I did live on Long Island for a long time.
• 17:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:19
  And I think people do still hear that in my you know, Yes. Me my accent, yes.
• 17:23
  too. I mean, I haven't lived in New York since I was 10, but people are always like, where are you from?
• 17:26
  Okay. Right. It's true.
• 17:27
  And I'm like, Texas. I live in Austin.
• 17:29
  It's true. ~ And they're like, no. Yeah.
• 17:33
  You can always always ~ suss it out. Okay, so you have had an extraordinary life.
• 17:40
  You really have. You ~ fled civil war in Beirut.
• 17:44
  Tell me about that. That's cuckoo.
• 17:44
  Mm.
• 17:46
  well that'll be part of the next book.
• 17:48
  ~ So yeah, this is so because it's that the next book will be fiction, but it'll be based on my experiences there.
• 17:54
  Anyway, we really did have to flee the civil war.
• 17:57
  We with very little notice, ~ yeah, I worked at the American school then in Beirut and we got notice we just had to leave the next day. ~ and they were afraid we wouldn't be able to get out, if we waited any longer than that.
• 18:11
  So the war had gone on periodically, you know, for several months and But you know, it was quite civilized.
• 18:19
  They you know, they there would be a ceasefire between ten and four so people could go do their shopping and stuff.
• 18:24
  And Wow.
• 18:25
  so ~ but then that was ending and ~ it you know, it became quite dangerous with snipers and~ you know, bomb car bombings and that stuff.
• 18:34
  So we had to leave. So I ~ it literally escaped with some other teachers that I worked with and I went to Jordan.
• 18:44
  I'm not gonna tell you how, because that'll be in the book, the next book.
• 18:47
  Okay.
• 18:47
  Anyway, I did escape and ~ we all made it out and ~ fortun and we were fortunate that one of the guys that we were traveling with, he knew missionaries in Jordan.
• 18:58
  And so on very little notice they all they took us all in and you know, let us stay there about a week and then we got you know, we found other things, you know, we could do there, other places to stay, or yeah, you know, I found a job.
• 19:11
  So yeah.
• 19:11
  Yeah, what what year was this sixties, seven seventies?
• 19:14
  This was no, this was the seventy seventy-four.
• 19:15
  Seventies.
• 19:17
  I was there from like some August seventy-four until October seventy-five.
• 19:21
  Okay. I gotta bone up on my history.
• 19:23
  ~ okay, that's crazy. But then you had a global executive coaching company.
• 19:29
  So tell Right.
• 19:30
  that's a big huge you had a big huge company, right? Tell tell me about that.
• 19:34
  I did.
• 19:35
  I was a therapist for a number of years, like thirty years, maritime family therapist.
• 19:41
  And then coaching started to come into play around in the 2000s, early two thousands. And so I was interested in that, and I took some courses in that and ~ started doing that work, and I realized right away that ~ Americans who were working ~ you know across cultures in other you know, with people on teams in other countries, you know, the coaching was like a drop in the bucket.
• 20:04
  I mean they knew needed so much more support than you know just the coaching.
• 20:09
  So to help them, I started to develop models and processes and you know that help them learn like intercultural competence and ~ be able to relate better to people that they were working with so that they could actually~ get their deliverables done on time ~ rather than having all this intercultural confusion that often goes on.
• 20:34
  Anyway, we expanded and we were in seventy-five countries when I sold the We had three hundred coaches. ~ and our work was mostly with leaders in global organizations and we did some work with the US government.
• 20:47
  And I started this when I was sixty, and after I you know, later I was like, why did anyone suggest to me that it was time to retire?
• 20:54
  I mean, it like never occurred to me to retire.
• 20:57
  And then later I was thinking, well, gee, a lot of people retire around that time.
• 21:01
  So anyway, yeah.
• 21:02
  Yeah. Instead of starting a global company when they're sixty.
• 21:04
  I know, yeah. Yeah.
• 21:05
  But that's seems like you. I mean, you know, s sixty you did this, started a global company, seventy you set the world record or the Maryland record as you re as you call it, and ~ in Yeah.
• 21:18
  weight in powerlifting. And then now eighty, writing books and I mean you you have I know, yeah.
• 21:23
  yeah. What do you think you're gonna be doing when you're ninety?
• 21:26
  I know, I thought about that recently.
• 21:29
  What?
• 21:30
  I think I'm gonna be doing ~ very similar,~ to what I'm doing now. I mean, I really love writing and now I have time to keep studying it to get better at it.
• 21:38
  ~ I'm gonna, you know, easily travel if I can keep travelling around like I do, you know. ~ So l I really love that. I mean and my life is just like it's amazing.
• 21:51
  I never really thought about aging, but my mother died when she was sixty seven and my father died when he was seventy six. So once I passed those ages, I was like, Wow. ~ you know, ~ I I mean and I've but just been involved with you know, over the years. So I think ninety I'll probably be slower.
• 22:10
  ~ you know, I I'm slower now than I was when I was seventy.
• 22:13
  But ~ hopefully I'll still Be productive, I'll still be doing things.
• 22:18
  You know, I forget the psychologist Ericsson, Ericsson, in his stages of development.
• 22:23
  He talked about in the later stages of life the challenges gen being generative.
• 22:29
  And I remember learning that, you know, years ago. ~ because so many people become s more sedentary and you know, they're just not generating new thoughts or ideas or, you know, they're getting deeper into whatever, you know, it is is their thing.
• 22:47
  So anyway, so I think that's the idea of aging is staying generative and stay staying generative and continuing to move.
• 22:54
  Those are the two biggies.
• 22:56
  Yeah. I mean, it seems to be working for you.
• 22:59
  I I think that that's one reason that you are so vibrant and you know, you really exude a life force.
• 23:08
  And ~ I think that it is because you're keeping up with what is interesting to Yes. Mm-hmm.
• 23:15
  And yeah. Is that what do you think?
• 23:17
  I yes, absolutely. And I keeping up with it and then, you know, it leads me to fantastic people like you.
• 23:24
  You know, I mean it's~ here so really true. I mean it leads me to fantastic people.
• 23:29
  ~ you know, I know people all over the world.
• 23:32
  I've got a ~ I'm working with a team in Jordan now.
• 23:35
  ~ I may ~ I may buy this platform to bring the bold community of women together.
• 23:41
  I don't know yet if I'm gonna do it.
• 23:43
  It's it's a lot and I you know, I have to think about that at my age, but~ but it you know, they're all over the world it's just exciting, you know, the people that I know and ~ get to work with.
• 23:54
  And get to have us friends. Yeah.
• 23:55
  Hmm. Yeah.
• 23:58
  It is it's exciting. It makes life interesting.
• 24:00
  What like w what does Yes.
• 24:03
  it feel does it feel any different to be 80 than it did to be 60?
• 24:08
  Like what what does that feel like?
• 24:10
  Yes, it feels different. ~ at sixty I didn't think about being sixty.
• 24:17
  Sixty was just like it just came after you know, I thought about being fifty, and then when that was gone, I just, you know, kept going, going, going. So I didn't really think about it because I could still do everything pretty much the way I could do it, you know, ~ the rest of my life.
• 24:32
  But by the time, and even with 70, I would say that was still pretty much the case.
• 24:39
  But now that I'm 80, I just know I'm slower.
• 24:44
  You know, it's harder for me to do certain things.
• 24:46
  So fortunately I have a fantastic assistant, and you know, they take care of a lot of the details, so I don't have to do that. ~ so that's helpful.
• 24:54
  So I've I've now I have to I've put systems in places that I might not have needed earlier on. Like, for example, every podcast. So I never ever want to like not show up because I can't keep it straight.
• 25:08
  So, you know, these kind of details elude me in a way they didn't, you know, when I was seventy.
• 25:13
  What do you mean, like you have to keep up on a calendar or like w Well yeah, I f I certainly put things on a calendar, but I'm like super attentive as soon as I get the notice I put it on the calendar.
• 25:23
  ~ and I ~ you know, I I'm just very attentive to it.
• 25:29
  I can't I know I can't depend on my memory to ~ you know, say, ~ yeah, you're doing that today You know, it's everything Yeah.
• 25:36
  I have to be really attentive.
• 25:39
  I I just try and be very attentive to these things.
• 25:42
  like I'm like that now. I just like I turned to 58 in August and I I've never had a freak out about a birthday before but I was like my god I'm 58 I am about to be 60 and then I and then Yeah.
• 25:58
  I I did a podcast about this a little mini episode because I was like all right let me sit and think about this like why am I why am I freaking out why is this hitting me like what And I really, when I sat with it for a while and I really thought about it, I was like, I really don't have a problem with being 50.
• 26:16
  I have a problem with how society might think of me as 58~ yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes, or 60 or beyond. And yes, yes, yes.
• 26:24
  I was like, wow, that's kind of heavy and not not deserved either.
• 26:29
  Like what why are we you know, why why Why am I letting that bother me, that society might be like, Mm-hmm.
• 26:38
  Well, you're past your expiration date or, Right.
• 26:41
  you know, anything useful or beautiful or ~ you know, all those things.
• 26:44
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, Do you have did you ever have any of those thoughts or?
• 26:49
  yes. I I can remember, and probably around that time, I I was very worried that I would become be considered irrelevant.
• 26:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:59
  And that was the term that I I thought of.
• 27:01
  And I ~ That and I then I want to comment on something else too, but anyway, this irrelevance thing.
• 27:08
  Because you hear so much about women feeling like they're irrelevant, like nobody looks at them and you know,~ you know, as they as they get older and nobody wants to hear from them.
• 27:18
  Anyway, I have not found that to be true.
• 27:21
  I have not found that to be true to my great pleasure.
• 27:25
  you know, I I mean I have friends in my in their forties, you know, raising young kids. And you know, and and we are friends.
• 27:35
  I mean, sometimes they might look at me, you know, as older somebody to help them out, but they feel free to help me out too, you know, and we talk about business and we you know,~ all s all sorts of things. So, you know, I f I that never happened.
• 27:49
  And now, you know, I'm it I'm just so gratified by the response to the book.
• 27:58
  And then my daughter, she, you know, she's in her forty. She's forty six.
• 28:03
  So she's, you know, bringing all of her crowd now, you know, to to the book. And anyway, I never felt that because I guess I kept going on doing things for other people.
• 28:14
  That you know, even the coaching business was all about how do we serve, you know, leaders in the world and ~ so fortunately that has not happened.
• 28:22
  So Yeah. I Yeah.
• 28:24
  I feel that too, that you know, as long as you do keep up with your interests and you find your passions that Mm-hmm.
• 28:33
  you will remain relevant, even though that's kind of a terrible term, but it no, I mean you will you'll remain relevant because you're you have something to share, you have something to offer with people.
• 28:45
  Right. Right.
• 28:46
  Yeah.
• 28:47
  You can stay engaged.
• 28:47
  ~ I wanted to say something about the ~ getting older and looking ~ your age.
• 28:56
  Which everyone Yeah.
• 28:57
  tells me, ~ you don't look your age and blah blah blah.
• 29:00
  But in fact I do look my I am eighty and I this is what it looks like, right? So anyway, Right. Right.
• 29:06
  and I know maybe an another other people, you know, there are a lot of people at eighty who don't look like this.
• 29:11
  I I get Right.
• 29:12
  that. But I think that ~ you know, the~ you know, i you know that you are your I I mean, I feel like I I look good for my age.
• 29:23
  I mean I yeah, You are great.
• 29:24
  yeah. And I'm aware of the ~ beauty standards, let's say. And although there are more older women modeling and doing, you know, all sorts of things in the fashion industry now, it's still the societal. I'm outside that~ you know, that those years when women are considered beautiful.
• 29:46
  And so it you know, I d I do think about the narrowing of that you know, n not just the window, but that perception of a woman as beautiful, you know, as Yeah.
• 29:58
  as we age. ~ you know, and I'm also aware that there's certain things I don't want to be bothered with anymore. You know, I don't wanna have to my hair's easy, you know, I mean the you know, the curls are easy, I can do it easily.
• 30:11
  I don't wear any makeup except I I take care of my skin, but I only wear lipstick. I just don't want to be bothered with all that other either to Yeah.
• 30:18
  ~ to try and conform to those ~ you know, those standards either. So Yeah. I mean, I I g I get all that and I I I think about that too and I w I struggle with, you know, when I see other women my age who do Botox and fillers and all the things Yes.
• 30:38
  and I'm like, ~ they look so good and I want that Mm-hmm.
• 30:42
  too. But then I think, no, I don't I don't want to do that.
• 30:46
  I want to there is something about I want to look my age.
• 30:49
  And then yet every once in a while I'll be like Right. ~ I I get this like wild hair like I need to do something to my face.
• 30:57
  I have to do something like I can't let it sag and it kills me.
• 31:00
  And I Yes.
• 31:01
  it's just like an internal struggle.
• 31:03
  I did it the other Yeah.
• 31:04
  day. I called up my friend and she works ~ at a dermatological place and I was like, How much to do? What can I lift my face up with?
• 31:12
  And she's like, it's Yeah.
• 31:13
  this, it's forty five hundred dollars.
• 31:14
  And I was like, F that ~ spend it forty and then I was like Yeah, exactly. I mean that's another thing, yeah.
• 31:19
  Forty five hundred dollars for like some laser treatments. And then I was like, ugh, that's stupid. That's just stupid.
• 31:26
  And then I was also like, and also I have this platform and I try to be somebody who's honest about aging.
• 31:36
  And that is honest because there Mm-hmm.
• 31:38
  are days where I'm like, I really, you know, wanna lift up my face.
• 31:42
  Right. ~ yeah.
• 31:42
  But then there's other days where I feel really beautiful.
• 31:45
  And then, you know, it goes Yes, yes.
• 31:46
  back and forth. And so that is the honest answer.
• 31:49
  And Yes.
• 31:50
  I probably will struggle with that for the rest of my life.
• 31:53
  And maybe someday I will do something.
• 31:53
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:54
  I don't know. That's okay too.
• 31:56
  But you know, I think that's part of it.
• 31:59
  And that is it's another societal pressure.
• 32:02
  Right, exactly. It yeah, it really is.
• 32:05
  Yeah.
• 32:05
  And that's the other thing that bothers me is that society created this pressure and then created this industry that will sell you a forty five hundred dollar laser.
• 32:13
  That's exactly For sure. And I always think when I think about that, one of the things I think about is like, do I really want to keep up with that?
• 32:21
  I mean, I didn't want to keep up with my hair.
• 32:23
  During COVID, I let my hair grow out because I don't want to be bothered doing it myself. And I just said, you know, yeah, I think about time. Like what's the time and energy involved in this?
• 32:33
  ~ you know, like if I started I'd have to do research and I have to figure out who's to who to go to. What if it didn't come out good?
• 32:40
  You know, I'd be rather rather have my own face than something that didn't, you know, look right.
• 32:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:45
  And you s because you do see women who they don't even look like themselves anymore.
• 32:49
  Yes.
• 32:49
  So I don't I wouldn't want that.
• 32:51
  Anyway, but yeah, I I mean I get it.
• 32:54
  It's ~ you know, it's it's a conflict at times.
• 32:59
  Yeah. It comes up at times.
• 33:00
  Yeah.
• 33:00
  Yeah.
• 33:01
  How you know, talking about like ~ empowering women, like growing up like what do you in the sixties, I guess? You grew but like growing Yes, yeah.
• 33:11
  up in the sixties, what how do you f how do you feel like it's Mm-hmm.
• 33:15
  society treating women has changed or has it changed?
• 33:18
  For the better or for the worse?
• 33:20
  Yeah. Well, I thought we were getting someplace for a while.
• 33:25
  I ~ Right. ~ I thought we were getting someplace for a while.
• 33:33
  I still feel that the ~ the most positive thing going on is angry women right now.
• 33:38
  Yes.
• 33:38
  Women who are speaking out on Instagram and ~ you know, not allowing themselves to be get quiet or become afraid.
• 33:50
  I think there's a lot more of that than there was back then.
• 33:53
  You know, back then it was real the lady, you know, I mean the lady was really the thing and that's when they had that song, That Lady Is a Tramp. You know, Right.
• 34:02
  yeah.
• 34:02
  So you know, she goes to the theater but doesn't come late.
• 34:07
  So~ my god.
• 34:09
  you know, she never bothers with people she hates.
• 34:11
  ~ you know, that's why the lady is a tramp.
• 34:14
  So anyway, to be the lady back then was ~ Unbelievable. Mm-hmm.
• 34:18
  even more restrictive.
• 34:19
  you know, than than being the good girl, I think. ~ you know, so yeah, yeah.
• 34:22
  Yeah. What about that Tom Jones song, She's a l yeah.
• 34:26
  She's a Lady? You know what I'm talking about?
• 34:29
  And what it's something like, you know,~ I can leave her on her own. Like she won't, she won't cheat on me, like that kind of thing.
• 34:36
  She could be left alone and she will I mean she knows her place.
• 34:40
  Like just my God, when I think about some lyrics like that, She knows her place. Yeah. She's the lady.
• 34:43
  Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
• 34:45
  I'm like, are you kidding me? my gosh.
• 34:47
  Yeah, exactly.
• 34:48
  But like you said, Yeah.
• 34:49
  I don't know how far we've come in some ways, you know? And Well, I think, you know, what really what really troubles me, it troubles me when I hear some women treat their vote as if it's like nothing.
• 35:05
  You Right.
• 35:06
  know, ~ and everything will be fine.
• 35:10
  I you know, one woman was on you, you know, as long as a she a Christian man makes the decision, a godly man.
• 35:16
  ~ god.
• 35:17
  And I was just like, these godly men are some of the people on this rape academy thing. You know, Mm-hmm.
• 35:23
  I mean, th you know, I that really bothers me.
• 35:26
  And the other thing that bothers me, and I really want to talk about this as I keep going around places, is women have to Stop being naive. They have to stop saying, this poor guy, and feeling sorry for the guy and giving them a second chance after the guy has already showed them who they are and they already know that this guy is not for their best interest.
• 35:49
  We have to stop that second chance stuff.
• 35:52
  I mean, it's just ~ it's it's not helping us.
• 35:56
  There was a survey, I think, ~ around the time that story about the rape academy came.
• 36:02
  out. ~ do you know you know about that.
• 36:04
  Do you know about No, I'm not talking about that.
• 36:04
  Are you talking about the Cornell what Rape Academy?
• 36:08
  I'm talking about the Rape What do you Academy online. I think in February like sixty thousand had sixty thousand views from men, right Yes.
• 36:16
  around that time. Yeah. And so anyway, I just you know, and then there was a study that came out around that time too.
• 36:25
  And it was all it was they had I forget how old the men were.
• 36:28
  ~ It was like, I don't know, twenty-three to thirty-five or something.
• 36:33
  And they were talking about how the how they sixty-seven percent of them said they had convinced a woman to have sex with them by the end of the night when when she had said no in the beginning of the night.
• 36:47
  Mm.
• 36:48
  So there's a lot of self abandonment going on here in this area also, where women are be the either allowing themselves to be worn down or they feel bad for the guy. I mean, women are feeling so bad for men.
• 37:00
  I wish men felt so bad for women.
• 37:01
  I mean it's just ~ Exactly.
• 37:03
  Yeah, exactly. So anyway, this this kind of stuff really we just have to stop.
• 37:08
  That has to stop. ~ We do have to stop. It's ~ it it reminds me of that Maya Angelo quote when somebody shows you who they are, believe them. Yeah.
• 37:18
  Exactly. Exactly.
• 37:20
  If they if they ~ exhibit any kind of, you know, behavior that makes you uncomfortable at the beginning, Exactly, yeah, yeah, guess what's gonna happen when they get comfortable with you?
• 37:30
  exactly, yeah.
• 37:32
  It's not gonna be pretty. And, you know, as far as being worn down and feeling sorry for the men.
• 37:40
  I I saw somebody posted about ~ it was more about the Cornell rape situation. And it was Yeah.
• 37:47
  like if a guy was drunk and unconscious around seven women, it'd be the safest place in the world for him.
• 37:56
  Exactly.
• 37:57
  Because they'd be like, make sure he's hydrated, call his people, prop him up in case he throws up.
• 38:01
  Right.
• 38:03
  Like, you know Men should be as concerned for women as women are concerned for men, Exactly. Yes. Yes.
• 38:08
  and women should be as concerned for each other.
• 38:10
  We really Yes.
• 38:11
  have to. ~ it reminds me of another podcast I did with~ Dominique DeBrot. She she did this documentary called Wise Women and she talked about the bonobo monkeys.
• 38:25
  Do you know about them? ~ if like Yeah, ooh.
• 38:28
  one is being sexually harassed or you know, a male monkey bonobo is making her uncomfortable.
• 38:36
  She elicits, you know, she makes this sound and all the women come running, all the female monkeys come running to her aid.
• 38:44
  huh. ~ huh.
• 38:44
  They chase the male monkey out, and he can come back if he behaves, but if he ever exhibits that you know behavior again, they chase him out for good. And I'm like, Mm-hmm. Exactly.
• 38:56
  we need some of that action. We need that sisterhood.
• 38:59
  Yes.
• 39:00
  And I think I feel like it's coming, you know, I feel like we're having an awakening with like what Mm-hmm.
• 39:06
  you're talking about, the rape academy and the Cornell and all this.
• 39:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:09
  I feel like we're having some sort of awakening because, you know, when we were growing up, it we didn't even have the language for that.
• 39:18
  I mean, it just of Right.
• 39:18
  course a a guy, you know, you're y you know, if you went a certain ~ distance with him, you know, making out or letting him do certain Right.
• 39:27
  things.
• 39:27
  Of course, you know, now you feel bad to make him stop because he's gonna pressure Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 39:32
  you. It's your fault. And so we just didn't ha even have that language back then, Mm. Mm hmm. Exactly. Yeah.
• 39:37
  you know? Do you think it's changing?
• 39:40
  I think Do you feel like?
• 39:42
  it's I think it is. I think there's a lot more awareness.
• 39:45
  I think there's an awareness of how awful it can be, that woman in France. ~ Yes.
• 39:51
  Yeah, I mean, and that's what the rape academy is based on, I think. I or okay.
• 39:56
  it seems to me from what I what I've heard about it.
• 39:58
  ~ but I think it's and that's that's the reality.
• 40:02
  That's how bad it has gotten. And I also think the other thing that's happening slowly, slowly, but I think men are starting to think, Whoa, I should be saying something about this, or I I shouldn't be going along with this or ~ you know I I I do think it's slow, but I think that is that is happening.
• 40:21
  Yeah. So Mm. I I think you're right.
• 40:24
  I think that men are also having an awakening because mi you know, again, like we didn't have the language, maybe they didn't have the language or the realization.
• 40:32
  And you know, you don't not that I want to let them off the hook, but also you don't know really till you know.
• 40:38
  And that's okay.
• 40:39
  Right.
• 40:39
  And as long as you have the awakening, you know, that's that's the thing.
• 40:43
  Right. That's right.
• 40:45
  ~ man. ~ Do you did you, I don't know if you got to this chapter in the book, but there's a chapter in the book where I I really had to think about this and with my husband, because he first of all, I just want to say my husband is the nicest, kindest, gentlest guy ever.
• 41:03
  And he got into this bro situation with this other guy, and really at my expense. ~ and so there's a chapter in the book in that, and he would not acknowledge.
• 41:16
  what he did. He didn't acknowledge it forever.
• 41:19
  I mean, I it not not forever. It went so I think I was actively trying to get him to acknowledge it for about six months and I write about that in the And then, you know, just then I was on myself.
• 41:30
  Like, why can't I let this go?
• 41:32
  I I have to learn to, you know, this is I don't want to keep this up and what's wrong with me that I can't do this.
• 41:37
  Anyway, and then you know, it just like stayed there in between us for years and years. And so something came up just like last year, I think.
• 41:46
  When I was, you know, almost finished with the book, that reminded me of that situation.
• 41:51
  And I said, I'm gonna.
• 41:54
  I'm gonna go back and talk to him about that again.
• 41:57
  But before I did, I I used ChatGBT and I said, Why would a why would a a husband, you know, allow this to happen to his wife?
• 42:05
  And so ChatGBT came back with all these reasons.
• 42:08
  Anyway, so I sent them to my husband and I said, Maybe this will help you to see what happened here.
• 42:14
  And he was like, I think he was blown away.
• 42:17
  Talk about not having the words.
• 42:18
  I mean, when I gave him this list of things, he was like, yeah, I see this.
• 42:23
  This is the reason I I did that.
• 42:25
  And he could all Can can of a sudden see after all those years.
• 42:29
  And then he wrote me an apology.
• 42:31
  And my gosh.
• 42:32
  yeah, after all those years, he wrote me an apology.
• 42:35
  And it blew, it just, I mean, it was wonderful.
• 42:38
  It just all that, you know, I had learned over the years that, you know, you store that trauma.
• 42:43
  And so it wasn't like me not being able to let go.
• 42:48
  It was the trauma stored in me that just like reignited at certain times.
• 42:53
  you know, ~ if something similar was going on.
• 42:56
  So anyway, it was a you know, we lived long enough so that we got through that, but it wasn't easy.
• 43:02
  Yeah, you know, that's ~ it's so beautiful that you were able to communicate that to him and he was able to hear it.
• 43:10
  And I think, you know, I also Finally.
• 43:12
  have such a great husband. I've been married a long time.
• 43:15
  I think you've been married, what, fifty years? Fifty years.
• 43:17
  Fifty years, yes.
• 43:18
  That's incredible. I've been married thirty six years.
• 43:21
  And Yeah.
• 43:22
  I have the loveliest husband as well.
• 43:24
  And ~ It's funny because we communicate like that too.
• 43:29
  Sometimes if something's really bothering me, I have to put it on paper and let him read it and Mm-hmm.
• 43:35
  absorb it. And then he usually responds by Mm-hmm.
• 43:39
  also like email or letter or something like that, Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
• 43:42
  like written. Just because I guess of the way you can process something.
• 43:46
  And Right.
• 43:48
  I I think that's incredible. Do you have any other like good advice for for staying in a long-term relationship?
• 43:55
  ~ boy. ~ A healthy one?
• 43:59
  Well, I just I wanna say that any long term relationship is certainly not So, Right.
• 44:04
  you know, I think that's accepting that.
• 44:07
  ~ I think, you know, really I think just have as much fun as you can.
• 44:14
  I mean, I think that's the most basic thing.
• 44:16
  You know, people get together because they have fun, they like each other, they do things together, right? And then as life goes on, they stop doing things together and they stop having fun.
• 44:26
  So I think those are the two most basic things.
• 44:28
  When I was a therapist, I would ~ you know, when couples came in, I would ask them to have one date night a week,~ one day away a month, one weekend away.
• 44:42
  Away a quarter and one week together away a year.
• 44:46
  So just so they could stay in touch with each other.
• 44:49
  Yeah, I think that's really important.
• 44:51
  It definitely. Yeah. Reconnecting and staying connected and having Yeah.
• 44:57
  fun. I think that's true, having fun together because Yeah.
• 45:00
  I again, not to shit on my kids because I adore them, but you know, now that they're gone, I'm like, ~ my God, we have so much fun together again.
• 45:09
  Yeah.
• 45:10
  Because it's not all logistics like you drive this one here and you pick Exactly. That's right. Yeah. Yes.
• 45:13
  up the dry cleaning. Yeah. It's Yeah.
• 45:16
  And I wish I mean we did a pretty good job of, you know, having date nights and so forth.
• 45:22
  And obviously we did well enough to stay married through all that, Right, exactly, yeah.
• 45:24
  but we probably, you know, looking back, could have maybe done more of that.
• 45:29
  I think we did pretty good. But Yeah.
• 45:31
  I think that that is really good advice to have fun together.
• 45:34
  ~ yeah, I Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 45:36
  like that. So what's your best piece of advice for aging well?
• 45:39
  Mm.
• 45:40
  Find whatever okay, I guess I there's two things.
• 45:43
  I I think if you explore if women are willing to explore and give themselves time and I'm not talking even like even ten minutes a day can be a starter, you know? But I think exploring your longings and not stopping, like not assume you're done with them.
• 45:59
  Like I just did that again this morning and realized some things that I said,~ okay, well that would be great.
• 46:05
  ~ such Such as like can you share what it was?
• 46:09
  I'm trying to think what was it?
• 46:10
  I think one of the things that I remember is we've been talking about what we're gonna do for this 50th, you know, ~ celebration. And so this morning I just was started thinking the thing that I want to do most is have more time to have fun with Tom.
• 46:33
  And so, you know, when I was thinking about my longings, because you know, right now I'm just like immersed in this book and all this, you know, stuff is going on and it's fun, it's fantastic. And I you know, it's it's busy. And so when I was in thinking about my longings, I was thinking that's the only thing that really comes to mind.
• 46:50
  So then ~ then I started to think about a trip that we could do. We have where we could visit friends all over Europe.
• 46:59
  And that maybe w we would do that instead of going on some like extravagant trip or some I mean this would be extravagant enough, you know, to hit four countries and meet up with friends in, you know, four different countries.
• 47:10
  but it would also be easy 'cause we've been there before, you know, we know it it won't be ~ you know, it wouldn't be stressful. It would just be fun.
• 47:18
  So when I mentioned it to him, he thought it was a good idea.
• 47:21
  So I think and that just came out of me saying, What am I longing for now?
• 47:26
  You know, what am I longing for?
• 47:28
  Yeah.
• 47:29
  Yeah, I love that. Do you like meditate or you just sit there and say what quietly, what am I longing for?
• 47:35
  ~ it's usually part of a prayer or a Mm.
• 47:39
  part of a ~ I try and read things that have you know is a spiritual~ you know work and you know kind of get me thinking and then you know I might pray or I might just write.
• 47:52
  I might start writing, you know, what am I longing for now? I might d do it that way.
• 47:56
  You know, whatever I guess is the spirit moves me, let's put it that way.
• 48:00
  Yeah. I love it.
• 48:02
  I think you said there were two things.
• 48:04
  Did you were did we do cover them?
• 48:06
  I can't remember. Two things that keep are your best advice for aging well.
• 48:07
  ~ two yeah, the other thank you.
• 48:10
  The other one is to follow your enthusiasm.
• 48:12
  So notice what you're really enthusiastic about and just keep doing it and keep enjoying it and ~ find more ways to do that and you know and connect with people you have things in common with around that.
• 48:27
  I think this is I always think about enthusiasm because first of all most people take it for granted what they're enthusiastic about and or they think, ~ I sh I shouldn't give time to that.
• 48:38
  I'm too busy doing important things, you know, like productive things.
• 48:41
  So, but I think the the root word of enthusiasm is theos.
• 48:47
  So it's God is the root word of enthusiasm.
• 48:49
  So I started thinking that, you know, our enthusiasm is really God given.
• 48:54
  It's really or universe given or source given or however people say it, right? ~ and that it shouldn't be taken as frivolous.
• 49:02
  It it is highly significant. So I think between the longings and the enthusiasm,~ you know, you could you could just keep rolling for a long time.
• 49:13
  So good. I think that's really good advice.
• 49:16
  Do you have ~ a favorite health or beauty product that you like?
• 49:21
  ~ What's that lipstick?
• 49:25
  You have beautiful red lipstick on.
• 49:27
  I have I must have ten red li I love red lipstick.
• 49:30
  So Yeah.
• 49:31
  but I guess my favorite what is that called?
• 49:34
  It's called like~ Wayman Couture or Wayman something.
• 49:40
  W E G I mean it's a new, I never heard of it before, but one of my daughter's friends gave it to me for some occasion.
• 49:46
  And And what is it?
• 49:47
  it is a lipstick. It's a red lipstick.
• 49:49
  I either use Chanel ~ you know, their basic red lipstick or ~ you know, or that one, this Wag Wagman ~ one.
• 49:56
  Okay. We'll we'll~ maybe get it from you and put it in the show notes.
• 50:00
  I can send it yeah, I can send you, Yeah.
• 50:02
  yeah, yeah. But I have a lot of and I you know, 'cause there's a lot of different shades of red and I really like red lipstick, so ~ yeah.
• 50:07
  Yes. It's beautiful. It looks good on you.
• 50:09
  Yeah, thank you. I use Shoshido,~~ like a moisturizing cream. I like that.
• 50:14
  Yeah. Your skin is beautiful.
• 50:18
  thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.
• 50:20
  It is Shoshido.
• 50:21
  Okay. And then do you have a favorite concert you've ever been to?
• 50:25
  No, because I haven't been to that many concerts.
• 50:28
  So What do you like? Do you like musicals or plays or w what kind of arts do you like?
• 50:31
  I love plays. I mean I love I love musicals too, but I love plays.
• 50:35
  I love ~ I'm a a member of the Arts Club of Washington, which is located in Monroe, President Monroe's former home in DC.
• 50:45
  Uh-huh.
• 50:45
  And so it's a historic building and ~ I'm I chair the cultural committee there.
• 50:50
  So we bring a lot of programming in, a lot of artists in, you know, from different ~ cultures and with different cultural orientations.
• 50:58
  ~ so anyway, so I But I love going to the theater.
• 51:03
  I mean I love it.
• 51:03
  So what's your favorite play?
• 51:06
  my, what's my favorite play? you know, I love ~ these old ~ Eugene O'Neill plays that go on for like three hours.
• 51:15
  I love Greek tragedy. Greek tragedy's like my favorite.
• 51:20
  ~ but Really?
• 51:21
  yeah, you don't get to see that much of that, but I really love it.
• 51:26
  I don't know, there's something so clean about Greek tragedy and so basic and so, you know, ~ basic themes of human condition.
• 51:34
  I th what did I just I just saw something not too long ago.
• 51:36
  Othello. I thought a new version of Othello, yeah, which was really good. Yeah.
• 51:40
  Yeah. Loved it.
• 51:40
  Wow. Do you know Sophie Burnham?
• 51:43
  No.
• 51:44
  okay, because I interviewed her once and I thought that she was involved in the ~ arts in DC as well. ~ maybe.
• 51:49
  She may be, yeah. Mm-hmm.
• 51:51
  ~ and then what okay, what let's see.
• 51:56
  Do you have a person that you admire for the way they're aging?
• 51:59
  Well, I always admired Gloria Steinem.
• 52:01
  Yeah.
• 52:02
  Yeah, I always admired her. I saw her.
• 52:04
  I didn't know her. I I go to these ~ It's called the Women's Clearing House.
• 52:10
  they have ~ programming. And the women on this call are people who knew Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, you know, ~ all these women who were big in the, you know, in the women's rights movement.
• 52:22
  But anyway, I always admired her.
• 52:23
  First of all, ~ she was original.
• 52:26
  I mean, she was really out there.
• 52:28
  he she and Betty Ferdan went, you know, talking about ~ women's rights and ~ doing things that you know women didn't do before, like going into bars by themselves.
• 52:37
  themselves and stuff. And at the same time I remember hearing Betty for Dan say it was just fun. You know, we had a lot of fun when we were doing all that.
• 52:47
  So and she always looked so good and she was so articulate.
• 52:50
  And right up until ~ according to these gals I was on the you know, the call with the other day, right up until right before she died, she was planning something she was gonna do in the spring next year.
• 53:01
  So it was sudden, you know, apparently her death was was sudden.
• 53:04
  So she just stayed with it, you know, her whole life. She ~ she really was a figure to be you know, to be listened to.
• 53:15
  And She also, ~ I think she really used her, you know, her good looks. She used her ~ how articulate she was, she could say things, she'd get away with things that, you know, maybe somebody else didn't.
• 53:29
  ~ so I think she was really smart.
• 53:32
  So I always, you know, she's a good she was and she always looked good.
• 53:35
  I mean, when Yeah.
• 53:36
  I saw her ~ years ago, she had her classic black pants on and her black see-through sheer top.
• 53:46
  and you know, you could see her brown underneath and her tailored pants with her belt and I mean she just always looked good.
• 53:52
  So yeah.
• 53:53
  Yeah.
• 53:54
  I thought she ate very well.
• 53:55
  Yes. I love it. Okay. Well is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wish I would have or any last thoughts or Yes, one one other thing. I I want I want to talk ~ you know here just a little here, but in general I want to talk about women and their ambition.
• 54:13
  And I want to really focus on that because the it's discouraging to ambitious women because they're once they bec they're pegged as ambitious, they're seen as less feminine, less likable. ~ you know, all the things that men would be seen ad admired for now they're not. So I think it's not Easy for ambitious women. So I want to redefine ambition.
• 54:35
  I want to talk about it in terms of longing and enthusiasm rather than a certain status. Because I think most women who are ambitious they really do want to do something to make the world a better place.
• 54:47
  Again, because I~ think.
• 55:01
  I think the world would would change.
• 55:03
  It would be a better place if more ambitious women could ~ got support for s for pursuing their ambition.
• 55:09
  So that's that's just yeah.
• 55:13
  I agree with that a hundred percent.
• 55:14
  I I kinda hate that we have to reframe it like by longings Yeah.
• 55:19
  and and enthusiasm, because I feel like we should get to be ambitious if we want to be ambitious, you know.
• 55:27
  But I but I get what you're saying because it we somehow do soften everything up.
• 55:34
  And I think that is a softer way of saying ambition that makes us more comfortable, but you know.
• 55:40
  I think it would make us more powerful if we felt Yeah.
• 55:44
  that we really it was ~ the a calling rather than Mm-hmm.
• 55:48
  a personal thing. Right? ~ Yeah.
• 55:51
  I think there's a lot of power in that.
• 55:53
  and I I totally agree with you.
• 55:56
  Yeah. And I don't mean to soften it.
• 55:58
  I mean to like ~ you know prop it up and push it, Okay. Yeah, let's not soften it up.
• 56:01
  you know, even more. Yeah, exactly.
• 56:04
  No.
• 56:05
  Let's be powerful and let's get what we want. Yeah, Let's be powerful. Yeah, exactly.
• 56:10
  let's go for what we want because it Yeah. Yes.
• 56:13
  ultimately will make the world a better place.
• 56:16
  Yes, yes.
• 56:18
  Well, I hope that everybody checks out your book bold.
• 56:21
  And ~ by the time this comes out, the book will be out and everybody can buy it.
• 56:28
  Amazon and all the other book places, maybe a Will it be in all the local bookstores or just on Amazon?
• 56:34
  Think so. I think I'm gonna keep it online.
• 56:36
  Okay. So, yeah.
• 56:36
  Yeah, yeah. Because much more complicated to track all that stuff.
• 56:39
  Exactly. Okay, so Yeah.
• 56:42
  go buy bold. And thank you so much, Barry. You're just an incredible woman.
• 56:48
  I hope that we all age as well as you.
• 56:51
  Thank you so much. Take care. Bye-bye.
• 56:52
  Thank you so much, Lauren. Okay.
• 56:55
  Bye.