Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Narcissists: The Great Dividers
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi everybody. Megan Hunter: We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In this episode, we're talking about what seems to be a favorite topic: narcissists. Today we'll talk about how they divide people and what you can do about it. But first, a couple of notes. If you have a question about high conflict situations or people send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast, where you'll find the show notes and links as well. And please give us a rate or review and tell your friends, colleagues or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We're very grateful. Now let's talk about the great divide or, I mean, the great dividers. If you aren't certain whether you've ever met a narcissist, think back to an interaction in which you went away feeling small or inadequate or even insecure and maybe kind of doubting yourself. You may have been around someone with narcissism. They're often sort of puffed up about themselves and get triggered when they aren't getting the attention they think they deserve or are entitled to. Then they go into action, making those around them feel small, but did you know that they are also the great dividers? Although, it may sound straightforward, it's often confusing to people around them because they can be the life of the party, really bringing people together, which is quite opposite, obviously, to being a divider. But so let's take, for example, a person who thinks of himself as a protector, a provider, a uniter in life and family, business or community. Until that day comes when someone stands up to him and says, "You're a narcissist. You're a bully. You're a jerk. You're an a-hole." It's entirely shocking to him, which can be so hard to compute in your own mind, as it's so obvious to you. Suddenly his anxiety skyrockets, and you are suddenly shifted from the good list to the bad list in his mind, which is often followed with a distortion campaign against you. It's all your fault and he will let everyone know it. And of course, he'll say, "I'm done. I'm out of here. You're out of my life." So Bill, does this sound familiar? Bill Eddy: This happens so much with people with narcissistic traits. What we see is they turn on people that may give them realistic feedback, even helpful feedback. Someone says, "You didn't really serve in the military." Someone put that in their resume and they get hired for a job. And they say, "You know what? We found out you didn't really serve in the military." And they said, "Oh, well, I applied." And you say, "But that's not what it says here." And so they get confronted on something and then they get angry and it's like, "Well, you're not so smart either buddy and I know more about this than anybody else." And so what happens is they see the world in terms of winners and losers, superior people, inferior people, and that's just kind of chronic trait for them. But what happens is they can be very charming, seductive, like in an employment interview. In dating, they can be the life of the party, as you said. And then after they get you to commit to them, whether it's in a dating way or you get married, something like that, then suddenly you find out they're bad mouthing you. Somebody said, "You folks were late to the party." And so the narcissist says, "Well, my wife, she's just always late for things." And yet you're his wife and you're going, "I'm not the reason we were late." And so you wonder, do I speak up? Do I let this slide? And suddenly this knight in shining armor turns out to be someone who's constantly putting you down in public. And that's one of the things about narcissists, they're happy to insult the people close to them around other people. So we see this sense of division between us and them or winners and losers or superior and inferior. And it's just so predictable, it's just a question of when it's going to get started. And we see this in families, we see this in the workplace. We see this in communities. Of course, we see this in politics because narcissists are attracted to positions of power and to get there, they're always putting other people down. You talk about this in a job and you see them working their way up an organization by stepping on the people that help them get to the position they're in and now they step on them to get to a higher position. So they're very much dividers. Megan Hunter: It brings to mind a case I was kind of, or a situation basically I was aware of and within a family. And when something came to light that was available publicly on the internet about the person who probably had some of these traits and this person was confronted about it. It just immediately triggered that fear of feeling inferior and they went into attack mode and the great divide. The dividing happened, the distortion campaign. It seemed they couldn't tolerate that other people knew this information that wasn't so great about them. And it had to do basically with some unpaid tax bills that are public information. Now, even though that was there, I think this person felt it wasn't anyone's business to know. And when it did come to light, it just immediately, "I'm done, I'm out of this family. You're wrong and I will prove that you're wrong and I'll turn everyone against you." That seems to be sort of that predictability that you're talking about, Bill. So that's a family example, but you mentioned the workplace and politics and healthcare, which I know the term splitting is where it came from, the healthcare setting. So let's talk about that. Bill Eddy: I didn't become aware of that till I was working as a therapist, clinical social worker in a psychiatric hospital. And one day, one of the psychiatrists brought this article and he said it's about splitting and how we have to be careful we don't get hooked into seeing each other in a negative way if one of our patients tends to tell half of us that were wonderful and the other half were terrible. So this was a fascinating dynamic. And let me explain it, I'll try to be brief, but so what it is think of the narcissistic person, and there's also sometimes other, like borderline personality can split people into all good, all bad, antisocial, can manipulate and knowingly say, "Hey, this person lied about you. What are you going to do about it?" But we see this a lot with narcissists. So here's an example. Narcissists says, say a team that works where I worked, I was a social worker. So there's a doctor, psychiatrist. So the narcissist tells me, "Bill, you're so helpful. You're just so wonderful. I so appreciate everything you do. But my doctor is just rude. He's impatient. I think he's incompetent." And then whatever new discussion, next thing I know I'm looking at that doctor a little differently and I'm thinking, "Huh, I wonder he may be rude, incompetent and this and that." Next thing I know that patient tells somebody else. "You're really wonderful, but Bill Eddy's terrible." And so you start getting the divide, gets spread. And in a group like a close together knit group, working with a psychiatric patient a social worker, nurses, doctor, maybe occupational therapist with activities to help them gain confidence. You've got a team there and you start turning them against each other because they're pumping you up with how wonderful you are and they're pointing the finger at how terrible somebody else is. I once consulted with a university that had an issue with a program with a student that was saying they had special needs. And half of the staff split, half against the other half. And half said, "We've got to be really easy on this person. This person has these problems." And the other half said, "No, we're not helping this person unless we expect them to do more and help them grow. That's what we're here for." And you get those teams kind of start hating each other. And I was asked to come in and I explained splitting and very quickly, they said, "Oh my goodness, that's what happened to us. And we need a better assessment of what this student needs, because we're getting emotionally hooked rather than being objective about this." So that was a good example. I think one other good example is the OJ Simpson trial. The criminal trial back in the 1990s and that comes up every few years. There's a show or a documentary on that. And the prosecution lawyers and the defense lawyers grew to hate each other. They both filed bar complaints that the other side was being unethical. Well, all those bar complaints got thrown out, but can you picture, was there anybody with narcissistic traits in that scenario and were they able to turn people against each other? And that's a classic public example because when people hate each other, that's emotional, that's not logical. And that's a sign of this splitting process. Megan Hunter: It's so fascinating because as you were talking, the different images keep flashing in my mind or situations of people that do this and how predictable it is. And they're very intense in needing to tell someone to make that divide and turn others, may not even so much turn others against that person, but get people on their side, on your own side. And never, as you say, connect the dots. They just don't connect the dots back to their own behavior. And you see that narcissism just shine through like, "It's about me. I help that person by letting cutting them loose." It's pretty interesting. So now lets kind of switch into how what can we do about this? How do we address this? People with narcissistic traits or personalities so often get what they want because those around them are afraid to do anything about it. Bill Eddy: I think people have to be prepared for this. I think education about this dynamic and that you're not getting divided over real issues. You're getting divided because there's a high conflict personality in the mix, often a narcissistic personality, who's dividing people. And so the number one thing is check things out, see like that doctor, the patient that said the doctor was rude and incompetent. Well, check out, "What do you mean specifically by that?" And often what they'll say like, "Well, he only spent five minutes with me today in the hospital unit." And you find out that's a standard because he then spent 15 minutes reading the nurse's notes. He spent 10 minutes talking to the social worker. He did all of that. And so find out, is this really a problem or isn't this? And maybe the patient wants more time and maybe that can be addressed rather than assuming that the doctor is rude because they only had five minutes. So it's checking things out, not assuming things and not assuming things about other people in the group. Go directly and find out. I once had a case with a high conflict or narcissistic person in it, where the other lawyer and I, we were friendly, but her client said something that she had said about the case and about me. And I don't know why, but I thought, oh, and I acted on what that was as if it was true. And I told her I was angry that she did those things. She says, "I didn't do this thing. You should have checked with me." And I was like, oh. So checking things out is one of the things you can do about it. Also, checking out your own feelings. If you suddenly start having all or nothing feelings about somebody else, check that out because that may not be realistic. Especially when you work as a team, you got to understand, see, is this really what's going on? Is this really what's thinking? Or do we have a narcissistic divider in our midst? And how can we help that person? Because if they're in a psychiatric hospital, they're there because they have a problem is work through that problem. Don't treat them as all bad now, here's someone with an issue. But watch out for this dynamic and you'll be surprised when you just recognizing it deflates its energy and you don't take it as personally and it doesn't gain as much power. Megan Hunter: I like that, deflates its energy. I always like to say, you're either going to starve the fire or feed the fire. And you're going to give it oxygen or you're not and you get a choice in that. So, I think those are really good ways to address it. Particularly, when you're dealing in person with someone you have to have that conversation or but let's talk now and kind of switch into an example we see a lot, which is when a private email conversation becomes not so private when the divider copies in someone else to make you look bad. It typically includes again, making you look bad and in an accusation that can be difficult to defend. So what can be done? Should you defend yourself? Should the person copied in, respond in some way or leave it alone? Should the original recipient of the email respond? The one who's being accused. Bill Eddy: Well, this of course leads directly into our BIFF method, brief, informative, friendly, and firm for emails and the person who's addressed in the email. Most of the time, it is helpful if they respond as long as they're brief, informative, friendly, and firm so they can clear something up. I think of an example that we often use where one person in a divorce addressed their co-parent in the divorce and copied in 20 family and friends. It was a criticism. So the person who was addressed, responded with a BIFF to the person that sent that. But then responded to the other 20 people and said, "You've gotten a personal communication here about our divorce. I hope you realize you don't need to get involved. And if you have any questions about anything that's said here, feel free to contact me." Well, the reality is nobody contacted her because people don't want to get involved in other people's high conflict divorce. And most people know that they're often not getting the full picture and rather than try to get the full picture is to just kind of stay out of it and leave it as a question mark, I wonder what's happening. Don't jump to conclusions because one person said the other was being inappropriate. Megan Hunter: Interesting. We get asked a lot by attorneys about BIFF responses when some accusations or allegations have been made and attorneys are trained to correct the record so it can be very tempting. So what would you recommend? I mean, if you are either the recipient or the person copied in. Bill Eddy: Well, I think it really depends on the setting for the communications. So sometimes if you're in the middle of a legal case, you need to respond and just say, "I received your email, I hear your point of view. I just want you to know my point of view was quite different. And if we need to discuss this further, please give me a call." So that they're on record for saying they don't agree because sometimes it looks like you agree if you don't respond. I've seen a lot of emails show up in family court, for example, and it can imply things but you also want to be the person who looks reasonable. The person whose tone of voice, tone in the writing looks respectful and reasonable and that's what BIFF responses give you the chance to do. Megan Hunter: So should the other person ever respond? The person that's copied in or persons? Bill Eddy: I think in most cases don't respond. Don't give energy to the dispute and to the person who's in many ways, inappropriately trying to draw other people in. So I would think your silence is helpful that no one got hooked by it. But in rare occasions it may be beneficial, but then respond with a BIFF response and some people respond and say, "Hey Joe, hey Jane, I was copied into this correspondence. And I really prefer that you not copy me in the future." Something like that. Megan Hunter: So a good setting limits. Bill Eddy: Yes, exactly. Megan Hunter: Well, without having to, and that's about as BIFF as you get. So all all roads lead to BIFF. Excellent. Well, great discussion, Bill. Thanks for all of that. And I hope it's been helpful to you, our listeners, as you navigate any great dividers and thanks so much for listening to our podcast. Remember, never tell someone that you think they're a narcissist or a high conflict person or have a high conflict personality. It just doesn't go well for anyone and it doesn't serve any purpose except to feed the flame. So don't diagnose, don't label, just focus on what to do and on taking care of yourself. In next week's episode, we'll talk about whether personality disorders are a form of mental illness. There's a lot of debate about whether this is true or not and how mental health professionals and legal professionals may answer this question differently. So you'll want to tune in to hear that. And as always send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitutedotcom or submit them to highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Thanks for listening and give us a rate or review if you're inclined. Until next week, have a great week and keep learning about high conflict behavior so you can manage it in your life and keep striving toward the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at truestory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.