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How To Avoid That Big Breakup or Divorce: The Relationship Warning Signs Most Couples Miss w/ Matthew Fray · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.A.
0:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Xu.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships.
0:07
[SPEAKER_02]: What if the silent killer of relationships wasn't something traumatic?
0:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But something far more subtle, every day in easy to miss.
0:15
[SPEAKER_02]: The small moments where partners, thoughts or feelings get dismissed, overlooked or unintentionally minimized.
0:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Over time, these moments can add up in ways most people never see coming.
0:28
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're joined by Matthew Frey, relationship coach, writer of the viral article and open letter to shitty husbands, an author of This Is How Your Marriage ends, a hopeful approach to saving relationships.
0:42
[SPEAKER_02]: He's here to unpack how someone who considered himself a good guy ends it up becoming an neglectful partner and what it actually takes to avoid these patterns.
0:51
[SPEAKER_02]: We explore why consistently the galactic apartters emotional experience can quietly erode a relationship.
0:58
[SPEAKER_02]: How these dynamics can show up from early dating to years into a marriage and the warning signs most people overlook when things still feel fine.
1:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Matthew breaks down why this isn't just a marriage issue.
1:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a relational habit that can begin long before commitment, and why awareness matters even if marriage feels far away.
1:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember to subscribe to the psychology of relationships on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
1:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And if this episode changed how you think about love relationships or communication, we'd love a rating or a review.
1:32
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships in your listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love and joy.
1:41
[SPEAKER_01]: The guests we have on today wrote in a blog article called She Divorce Me because I left dishes by the sink.
1:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Before I have ever met Matthew Frey or even had him as a guest on our show, my current boyfriend's ex-wife posted this article about three months after we started dating.
2:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to read this if the X-Wife is posting this and I won't go into the details of why this article really changed my life and my relationship, but I do want to talk about how interesting it is to see from an outsider's perspective of other people's relationships sometimes.
2:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll leave it at that.
2:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey Matt, how are you?
2:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey Matthew.
2:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I thank you so much for having me.
2:29
[SPEAKER_00]: That was funny.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a lot.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, the fact that, because Julie also found you separately from when this article was posted and she mentioned your name.
2:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, fuck, yes, we need a pot so bad.
2:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I need him.
2:46
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to hear all about from Matthew, but you know we're coming back to how this change your own relationship.
2:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, I'm not letting you off the hook.
2:52
[SPEAKER_01]: come that one fully for sure, but I have to say when I just read the title of the article, I literally went to a sink and I was like, how many dishes are in the sink right now?
3:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a shit ton and I was like, this is going to be the ultimate demise of our relationship.
3:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not really the case, but before we get to, I'm sure you're all wondering, like, is this article really about dishes?
3:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not obviously, but I want to go back a little bit and ask Matt, were you a shitty husband?
3:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you have considered yourself a shitty husband?
3:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, no, certainly not at the time.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the really dangerous part about this when I wrote an open letter to city husband and that's like right 14 sort of volumes of that.
3:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I really did think about a lot of this stuff and the context of right and wrong.
3:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Good and bad as solvers is good guy.
3:39
[SPEAKER_00]: 18 months in the relationship coaching business has really modified the way that I come at this.
3:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Certainly, there are people with ugly intentions doing ugly things out there that are damaging relationships, but I think it really is true that a lot of really decent people do these things in their blind spots, and it's not so much that they're doing a bad thing.
3:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that they're they're blind to what's happening while they're not paying attention.
4:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And then maybe doing a
4:07
[SPEAKER_03]: So what was your story, like what happened in your own relationship that kind of spawned all this?
4:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought I was a nice guy, right?
4:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And I talked to a lot of men about this.
4:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I talked to them and I said, let me guess.
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a pretty likable guy and you had a really decent sort of upbringing and school and with your family and you've got a lot of positive feedback.
4:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You probably got pretty good grades.
4:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You probably succeeded in all of your endeavors.
4:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And right, you're successful at work.
4:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you meet people most people like you, most people have good things to say about you.
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: and the one person in your entire life who complains about you who suggests you have some potential character defects or that you're causing harm is the one person you promise to love and live with and sacrifice for all the days of your life.
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like specifically speaking, she's like the anomaly, right?
4:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so easy to dismiss this as like
4:56
[SPEAKER_00]: the weird thing that's not like the rest.
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You start defending yourself and doing the group thing thing with all the people that shower you with praise.
5:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That was me, not that there's a bunch of people like with feelings of adoration for me, but I had really positive relationships.
5:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It did not make sense that I could be mean, that I could hurt.
5:13
[SPEAKER_00]: that I could cause problems like that, had a real problem with sort of empathy and what words I mean, I'm the same guy.
5:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just paying attention to how the things I do don't do affect other people in a way that I did not before.
5:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think about very specifically the way I am willing to engage and somebody wants to talk to me about that.
5:34
[SPEAKER_00]: That's honestly the difference.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing changed other than that.
5:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, in your article, you talk about this golf tournament.
5:40
[SPEAKER_03]: That was kind of like the demise.
5:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you go into that a little more?
5:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't, it didn't.
5:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So right, it wasn't like something specific.
5:48
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't like, hey, you want to watch the masters and it's gorgeous outside.
5:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we should go out as a family.
5:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're a shit person and I want to end the marriage now.
5:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I just pulled that as a, not unlike the dish by the sink, as an example in which I chose
6:03
[SPEAKER_00]: other things over my wife and family.
6:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's different, right?
6:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not me invalidating her.
6:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not me defending myself necessarily.
6:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is me choosing myself over her.
6:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the story where it's like if I knew then what I know now, like who's sitting on the couch watching the masters?
6:21
[SPEAKER_00]: If he or she understands that's the difference between family and no family marriage and no marriage.
6:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But on that day in my blind spots in
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's gross when I think about it now.
6:36
[SPEAKER_01]: How long were you married for?
6:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We were together 13 years married for nine of them.
6:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So not ridiculously long, but sort of long enough.
6:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how long ago was the divorce?
6:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about seven years now.
6:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, seven years.
6:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, time flies.
6:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the open letter to Shadi Husbands was written in 2013.
6:54
[SPEAKER_00]: and still kind of has legs out there.
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel a little bit bad about it because that's not how I want to approach man.
7:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Seven years later, hey, Shini has been you suck.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Listen to my wise divorce self is not the way.
7:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But when did you become this wise divorce self?
7:14
[SPEAKER_01]: When did you come to all these self-realizations?
7:17
[SPEAKER_00]: really slowly.
7:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened was, wife left April 1st, 2013.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Very specific.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
7:24
[SPEAKER_01]: What time?
7:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember.
7:28
[SPEAKER_03]: three, four, six, okay?
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I honestly don't remember, but shortly after work probably, it was just all very bad, and then, you know, the merits like legally ended, you know, a few months later.
7:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But that was a really rough time, and I sort of, you know, I characterized it as like breaking.
7:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't the same guy anymore.
7:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd never felt that bad, and it was my first taste of, a human being can carry around a lot of like pain and damage inside while you're busy not noticing.
7:55
[SPEAKER_00]: right and so like I'm going to work and the my world's ended and everybody else is carrying her up carrying up on you know business is usual and I'm like you don't you know like the world ended like how can you laugh and act like everything's okay that was like the moment and it happened slowly when I sort of realized it put my wife in that same position right she's carrying around like all these pains and just feelings of like neglect and abandonment
8:19
[SPEAKER_00]: They're never being validated and they're invisible like this whole time.
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was really selfish though, right?
8:25
[SPEAKER_00]: How did I get to be like, why is divorce guy selfish?
8:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I was so afraid to hurt that bad again.
8:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so afraid to subject other people, my son.
8:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I just didn't ever want anything like that to happen again.
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had to understand it.
8:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I just I wrote it, right?
8:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I blogged the like journey of self discovery and it worked.
8:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying people are allowed to take exception to the things I think it feels for me it worked and even if it's not for everyone there's a critical mass of people that are like this is like what I need a straight man to say to me you know like right validate my experiences.
9:04
[SPEAKER_03]: How many volumes do you have now of this open letter the shitty?
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't written them for a long time.
9:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember when the last one was but
9:15
[SPEAKER_03]: So how did you evolve the most from chapter 1 to 14?
9:18
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so I was really whiny and emo at the beginning, right?
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what was me, my wife left me on thatic.
9:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, you know, some people might be like, you're still those things.
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, but I don't think so.
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to associate conversations about emotional intelligence and empathy and these things related to a relationship health right I was like guy who played football right and I was like that guy.
9:45
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not the stuff we talk about right in the locker room right with their friends.
9:49
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the sort of like weird borderline sexist macho component.
9:53
[SPEAKER_00]: underneath some of these conversations.
9:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think at least in the context of men and heterosexual relationships in the United States, who grew up in environments like, I don't know what that number is, but it's several million, our inability to sort of deal with.
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: These things are real problem.
10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just not afraid of it anymore.
10:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm not, I'm not gonna be ashamed of talking about things that impact everybody.
10:15
[SPEAKER_03]: So did you and your wife just, did you ever have any conversations along the way or was it just like out of nowhere kind of all these like little things started to really build resentment and that's when she called for the divorce?
10:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We had a million conversations along the way and the lion share of my coaching work is about navigating those conversations more effectively so they're not stuck in.
10:38
[SPEAKER_00]: this toxic cycle, I call it the same fight, like capital T S F, like the same fight and it just happens.
10:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Over and over again, no matter how different the topic is, it's like the same fight and the same like sort of cycle and it's gross and it ends people all of the time, but it ends them really slowly.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So like people in year one of their relationship don't know, this is the fight that will end them in year seven, year eight, you're nine, I think it's really tragic.
11:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I may, you stop me anytime you're like Matt, you don't get to dictate what we talk about here.
11:07
[SPEAKER_03]: No, keep going, keep going, please.
11:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I want you to know how I think about this.
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so important to me.
11:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Here is what happened as I was working on myself and thinking through all of this, statistically speaking in the United States.
11:22
[SPEAKER_00]: People 18 years of age and older fall into one of three camps.
11:25
[SPEAKER_00]: They are married, they were married, or they intend to get married.
11:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So 95 out of 100 people, which in a math way is everybody, right?
11:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's statistically everybody.
11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Statistically everybody is impacted by marriage or relationships that more or less in mere marriage.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So everybody's going to do this or live like this, you know, short of like Tibetan monks and, you know, people who take vows of celibacy and things like that.
11:53
[SPEAKER_01]: The 5% yes.
11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You get it.
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And people don't know that a routine conversation about a dish by the same, about watching the masters on a Sunday versus going out and taking a hike in the national park is going to honestly be on the list of things that ends your marriage.
12:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
12:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Divorce is a really rough go for a lot of people.
12:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I put all that together, when I think about all the people who are really good and really trying and they enter this thing Sort of like intentionally and voluntarily and they don't even know they don't even have the list of like, hey, here's the shit that we're about because it's going to end you like they don't have a chance that terrifies me for them and their children and that's why I do this now, honestly
12:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you think of the big stuff, like, in fidelity or abuse or, like, money, like, you don't think of what you just said.
12:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
12:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd say exactly.
12:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I call them the major marriage crimes.
12:44
[SPEAKER_00]: The major marriage crimes are all the red flags.
12:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm going to go out drinking them and come back and I'm going to hit you and call your names and the gamble or money away.
12:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody would tolerate that.
12:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That's insane.
12:53
[SPEAKER_00]: The danger is in the, like, sneaky abuse, right?
12:57
[SPEAKER_00]: The me.
12:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I do with a smile on my face and I don't even know I'm doing.
13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: When I tell you every time you come to me and say, hey, Matt, I think her, well, all right, here's what I tell every client, your wife, your partner comes to you and I have some female clients too, by the way, this isn't exclusively a man problem, just usually is, respectfully, to man, and I don't like to blame men, I like to blame me, so let me talk about it that way.
13:21
[SPEAKER_00]: My wife would come to me and here's the three ways I always respond.
13:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Matt, a bad thing happened.
13:26
[SPEAKER_00]: They feel shitty about it.
13:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the three ways I respond is, no, it didn't, like, that's not how happened at all.
13:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what happened.
13:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The second way I would respond is, oh, that happened, but why are you acting that way about it?
13:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't make sense at all.
13:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely overreacting.
13:39
[SPEAKER_00]: The third way is I would like take in the information and say, well, sure, but let me explain why, and then I'd go into some like a brilliant analysis of why it made so much sense for me to do it.
13:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So observation number one, your feelings never matter, ever no matter what, right?
13:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the comment denominator and that's the thing that's going to end.
13:58
[SPEAKER_00]: a culture of safety and trust in your relationship and you're done.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That goes away and you don't believe your partner's going to come around on it.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You're done.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing that really got me about that last time, by the way, good people can do this.
14:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a really solid, high character human being can try to set the record straight, can try to say, hey, I don't think you should feel that bad about it.
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a big deal.
14:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And a really good human can explain why they like did something intentionally.
14:20
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not this gross asshole behavior.
14:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we defend it, by trying to explain why we did it,
14:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We also mathematically promise we're going to do it again.
14:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to do your feelings, no matter, but I just justify it and I just basically said it.
14:34
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
14:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing this again and how is the spouse who feels shit on every day and unseen and invisible and unloved and all the things.
14:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how is she supposed to make that choice?
14:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Or if it's that scenario?
14:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Make the choice to like, choose that over and over and over again at some point a person has to choose between their their wellness and not and that's what I made my wife to choose between and giving up half of our son's childhood he was for She had to sacrifice seven years of his life as he loving a doring mother or like live with me.
15:06
[SPEAKER_00]: When I realized that was the position I put her in and she chose to sacrifice seven years of her son's life really put it in perspective for me.
15:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go back to your examples of how you can respond to your partner because I do want to bring back what I spoke about in the beginning with leaving the dishes in the sink.
15:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's use that example and why it could be detrimental to a relationship.
15:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just peel back the layers of the dishes in the sink.
15:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are a couple of ways you can deal with the situation.
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: As you say to her, no, I don't want to where you can say, why is that a big deal?
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: We can just throw in the dishwasher or you can say, why don't you do it?
15:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is something along the lines of that?
15:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And the surface level, it doesn't seem like a very big deal.
15:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But in your article, you talk about it's not the dish.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the act of leaving the dishes in the sink.
15:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fact that leaving the dishes in the sink is so important to her that you are ignoring her needs and her feelings.
16:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not not about the dishes.
16:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, that's exactly right.
16:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the conversation about what is allowed to matter to another human being on myself and in a lot of people think their opinion about what matters to another person should have merit.
16:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Like in the world, like in this scenario, I promise you, I'm not trying to not answer this question.
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's all the same in my conversation.
16:28
[SPEAKER_00]: The three ways we respond to a person who comes to us and says, hey, this shit, things going on and I don't feel good about it.
16:34
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that starts that like cycle that response pattern is that we're judging whether we think you should or should not feel as you do.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: The very first mental action we're taking is evaluating whether it's okay for you to think or feel a thing.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is why I'm like guys I'm like you have to notice.
16:55
[SPEAKER_00]: that you're doing this.
16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I always have this book next to me when I'm talking to people.
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It's James Clair's academic habits, has nothing has nothing to do with relationships, but I try to make like everything about relationships when I come across like cool ideas.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, us too.
17:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I write, I started to, I started to like apply like this sort of idea of neuroscience to this.
17:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, can you notice yourself?
17:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Judging your partners like feelings and trying to make some sort of judgment about it.
17:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you agree?
17:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not useful and then can you interrupt that process and instead of choosing this like judgment evaluation process?
17:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you instead choose a validation and like curiosity?
17:32
[SPEAKER_00]: How about if you don't get it?
17:33
[SPEAKER_00]: You see to understand instead of being a ticket.
17:35
[SPEAKER_03]: So I had this happen actually to me not in a romantic sense when I lived with my past roommate for five years.
17:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we lived together for a very long time.
17:45
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was almost like we were in a relationship living together, right?
17:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And I admit that I was that person that left dishes in the sink and it really pissed her off.
17:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Really pissed her off.
17:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think for a long time, I didn't want, I was totally guilty of what you just said, even as a woman.
18:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I was like, who cares?
18:05
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the dishes.
18:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Like who cares, right?
18:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think where her anger came.
18:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Finally, we were able to like really sit down and talk about it.
18:13
[SPEAKER_03]: was that it felt like it wasn't just the dishes.
18:16
[SPEAKER_03]: It was that she felt like I didn't pull my weight around the home in general.
18:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was like one more little thing.
18:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, I'm doing all this stuff.
18:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm cleaning the bathroom and I'm doing all this.
18:28
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't put this one dish away.
18:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it kind of like minimizes everything else that they're doing.
18:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And when she said it, I totally felt empathy for it.
18:37
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's a double edge because like I'm agreeing with you like I think man women whoever should be empathetic and understand it but also it's the way it's communicated to because the way she talked to me made me not want to do the dishes because it was like filled up like she she exploded probably at you
18:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reason she talked to me like she actually worked with like special needs children and the way she talked to me about like she was addressing her students.
19:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not I'm like saying it in a way, but that's how it felt like it was very demoralizing and demeaning and it literally made me want to do the opposite.
19:15
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that, yeah, like I think it's it's it's both parties here.
19:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not faulting your wife at all.
19:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know your wife, but I think it's more of like how do you have this conversation that really gets to the root of it.
19:28
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's really not about the dishes at the end of the day.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we can't put all the onus on the perpetrator.
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: We're also two people have to communicate.
19:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So how should this news be delivered or these needs?
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's funny, and so I have a lot of female clients, right, who are more or less the equivalent of my wife in my marriage, right, and they're calling in there like, how do I do this?
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually had this conversation like two hours ago.
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the first things I always talk about is this idea of dissociating character from the can we start that can we agree that if he's a bad guy, a fundamentally bad human being, that it does not make sense for you to be in that relationship.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you just shouldn't
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: If he is or she is out to get you and sabotage like you and your life like have values of boundaries and protect yourself like you deserve that so you know know your worth after we establish that he's not doing that right he's not like Intentionally waking up and saying I'm gonna like try to chill over my wife's life today make our marriage horrible then it's can we agree that the same fight that you have every single day
20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: has never worked yet.
20:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we agree that in the context of data trends, doing the same thing isn't going to play it all?
20:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm always encouraging a slightly modified,
20:41
[SPEAKER_00]: like version of communication where we're emphasizing the fact that we don't believe you are doing this to cause the pain that I feel.
20:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I am in the spirit of cooperation trying to just let you know that this thing you're doing that you do not perceive to be harmful or painful.
20:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I experience as harmful and painful, and then right, and then we have this like problem with it, it's really, really hard to do when you're pissed.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like who the hell am I to like start
21:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I was on a podcast with a lady who's a marriage counselor and she told me that she tells her clients not to talk about anything.
21:19
[SPEAKER_00]: They perceive to be important if they're like emotions or registering at a three or above on the like zero to 10 scale and she talks about like the chemical neuroscience of that and you know your brain starts you get a bunch of like fighter flight responses and things like that and
21:33
[SPEAKER_00]: your shitty versions of yourselves, then you then you otherwise could be.
21:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you can have like a packed like a code to just not go there, you know, or what if you're always both trying to keep it at three or less?
21:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, imagine like if you're mindfully trying to always keep like everyone's emotions at this like nice comfortable place,
21:53
[SPEAKER_00]: and both are actively participating in that, nobody's ever inciting anything and you're constantly seeing somebody that's like looking out for your best interest instead of what always happens.
22:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it was just.
22:04
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you said something really two things that I think are really interesting.
22:07
[SPEAKER_03]: One is that this person has your best intentions, like you've separated the people that don't, right?
22:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember there was this dating coach Evan Markats that I
22:17
[SPEAKER_03]: found like when I was like in the thick of dating when I was like in my like mid 20s and just totally clueless to be completely transparent.
22:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember like one of the things that was really set me apart was like he was like if he's your boyfriend or he's your husband or whatever.
22:32
[SPEAKER_03]: He's not out there to get you and you need to remember that.
22:35
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's like step one for people that are in this situation and they're receiving it.
22:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to say that.
22:40
[SPEAKER_03]: The people that are doing things should not change as well, but that's one way that you can kind of interpret things different.
22:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that you hit that point also.
22:48
[SPEAKER_03]: But then the other side that I heard from someone was like, if you can start conversations with like, like, I love you, and this is what's happening, or like something positive, so when you're having it, it doesn't feel like an attack to someone.
23:01
[SPEAKER_03]: It's more of just like, we're in this together, and I wanna share why this is hurting me.
23:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not that I want it to abandon you in the relationship, I just wanna work to make it better.
23:12
[SPEAKER_03]: That's at least my thoughts.
23:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying really hard to not be in the business of asking wives to do things differently.
23:20
[SPEAKER_00]: When they're in this dynamic, this classic sort of like what I perceive to be the most common, like uncomfortable marriage, where this dynamics apply and the guy is sort of this constant and validator and the wife is doing the, you know, the invisible load thing that you talked about earlier.
23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate you sharing this story by the way.
23:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That was such a great demonstration of how this is not exclusively this like man woman thing.
23:45
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't this exclusively like heterosexual marriage thing.
23:48
[SPEAKER_00]: these dynamics exist in lots and lots of relationships.
23:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Conversations were have right now applied to things much bigger than me going on socially in the world right now, right?
23:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You can you can apply all of these same ideas about other people's experiences to to much more than just romantic relationships.
24:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But okay, so the the other side I want to bring into this is example with an accident I've had where all he wanted to do was avoid conflict and appease me.
24:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say can you please put the dishes away?
24:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you please take out the garbage?
24:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you please do this?
24:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and keep doing it.
24:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But he would also keep leaving dishes in the same or keep the garbage out.
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But every time I asked him to do it, he would do it.
24:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So then what this ended up building was a lot of annoyance from my side because I'm like, yes, you do it, but you keep doing the same thing.
24:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And to him it built up so much resentment because it reminded me of what you wrote in your article was about me being his mother.
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I was mothering him a he thought like I was his mother, telling him to do his chores.
24:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is like the other side of the spectrum is like a couple trying to avoid conflict.
24:58
[SPEAKER_01]: How do they really communicate their needs to each other and not just appease each other?
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's one person accepting responsibility for not passively letting all of life management fall to the other.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The mental load, the invisible load, emotional labor, usually in male female relationships that's showing up as wife mother, being the administrator of all things in the house, right?
25:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Large and small.
25:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's remembering to get the birthday present for their nephew David and like, you know, planning social events and
25:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even have to go through the list.
25:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody just knows what that looks like.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so common for wives and mothers to be sort of stuck at doing that.
25:43
[SPEAKER_00]: The husband isn't doing anything wrong.
25:45
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not, right?
25:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, just like, I'm not causing harm in like the race relations conversation.
25:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how they're doing anything bad, but maybe I need to take a hard look
25:57
[SPEAKER_00]: how my inaction is like participating in something that's maybe not okay, like for people.
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the same conversation in our relationships.
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: How is your lack of participation, harming other people?
26:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think it's like a super nuanced idea.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: There's very real things to manage in life.
26:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And you I talked about this, but there's so much more when you
26:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right, so here's what mom ends up doing.
26:26
[SPEAKER_00]: She's now got to manage life for everybody, for herself.
26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe she's like a VP, like at an office somewhere, right?
26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: She's got all this shit she's got to do there.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And all these things she got to manage, she got to come home, she's got to take care of Joey and Sally.
26:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of their like dentist appointments and like homework and things like that, you know, make sure like dinner is at least managed if she's not like making it herself.
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: She's usually the one that's like think of it and make sure like somebody's going to the story, even if she's not doing it herself.
26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wrote an article once called she feels like your mom and doesn't want to bang and it's because after years of that, I am doing this for my son Joey and my mom and my husband.
27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: The list of shit I do every day is identical from my children to my partner and the children don't bother me because I knew what I was signing up for, but this person promised
27:17
[SPEAKER_00]: to love and honor me and support me all the days of my life.
27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yet, he's absolutely requires the same amount of care that my children do, and because it's super healthy for adults to not want to, you know, sleep with children.
27:31
[SPEAKER_03]: make sense.
27:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes sense that you wouldn't want to fight with somebody who is like in that role in like making you feel that way.
27:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
27:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, right.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I can't get it.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And listen, that was me.
27:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just busy like therapy dripping around.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, playing video games and online poker and all the things.
27:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: and then defending myself for like, you know, being like nice and shit.
27:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody cares.
27:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody cares.
27:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I abandon you to like be the only adult.
27:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Only person actively working on the marriage.
27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: No wonder you're missing.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: No wonder you don't think I'm like attractive.
28:03
[SPEAKER_03]: right well I think like what you a you brought up about having to ask someone all the time that starts to really win on you also it's like oh my god am I really asking them to do this simple thing one more time and it's not following through and why do I have to ask like why can't they just do it I think that's like it builds up resentment
28:24
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think what I was trying to say earlier of like taking ownership of yourself, and I totally agree with you, Matthew, that it should not fall on the woman.
28:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Or whoever is that person, I agree with you.
28:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I think where I was coming from with that is that in the end of things, the only person you can control is yourself, right, in some ways.
28:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, this is great, all of this is fantastic.
28:43
[SPEAKER_03]: But what if like your husband or significant other is just not thinking this way?
28:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do you even like get them to be aware of this?
28:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I agree like I don't want to be the person that has to start every thing like I love you but or I have to ask you to do stuff like that's going to build resentment, but like what are their options do we have if we're in a situation where someone's doing this?
29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: What if I told you that my wife had to
29:10
[SPEAKER_00]: and our family and our marriage for me to get it.
29:13
[SPEAKER_00]: What if it told you that almost everybody I talked to has to be on the verge of divorce or have really uncomfortable conversations where that's communicated, right?
29:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm gonna break up with you.
29:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to divorce you.
29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure I love you anymore.
29:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it almost has to get there for blind guy to join that conversation.
29:34
[SPEAKER_00]: That has to be.
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: something that rises to the level of triggering his holy shit this matter.
29:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I can stand that that's true, but and I'm not even saying that it is.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't claim to be an expert on any of this stuff that is my observation for seven years is that there are not an enormous amount of guys who are going to
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: do this like cycle of defensiveness and being like really the dish that will just sort of like evolve into this emotionally intelligent person who gives a shit about it.
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I've not seen that play out and like this organic way.
30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Once in a while I get lucky and I get some super flattering like
30:11
[SPEAKER_00]: email or blog comment.
30:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh my god, I see it.
30:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for like telling the story.
30:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Because this like validates like our, or should say this reinforces things my wife said.
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But imagine that.
30:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine being that wife.
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I tell you this should for five years, ten years.
30:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm divorced by the internet says it.
30:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you're listening.
30:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think actually, because I think we're my point of starting it of, I love you, and like, I admit, I have not been in a long-term relationship of like 10 years plus, right?
30:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't know.
30:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I haven't been there myself.
30:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that tactic might work at the beginning, and then after a certain amount of time, like, I agree with you, maybe the drought.
30:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it can't just be that forever, because that's like the resentment's going to build.
31:02
[SPEAKER_03]: aren't there yet.
31:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we do have some people that are married, that are in relationships, that they might be like, okay, yeah, this is a reality in my mind, but I think why we want to do this episode with you is like, how do we reach people that aren't in that situation?
31:14
[SPEAKER_03]: So they're aware of this.
31:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Like what steps can people take now if they're not in the think of it?
31:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad that you're talking about that, right?
31:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the end game here.
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, if we're going to like, I want to say fix it, but if we're going to address this young people have to have conversations and I'm talking like right this schoolage kids can we we teach them about the French and Indian war and geometry and
31:36
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, like different kinds of geologic rock formations.
31:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't teach them about the things that will break them.
31:42
[SPEAKER_00]: If it goes bad when there are adults, and I don't understand why this is like a conversation that's missed.
31:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Just kind of through the school years and just in our general family lives, but I haven't met anybody that like, yeah, I grew up when we talked about this kind of thing all the time, please, please identify your core values and your boundaries and do not let people fuck with you.
32:03
[SPEAKER_00]: like don't let nice dudes fuck with you because they seem nice and your parents like them and right they have a job or whatever make sure when you speak about the things that you value and matter to you if you're not getting communication or action that demonstrates that you were respected and seen it will equal a really shit life.
32:24
[SPEAKER_00]: If you end up intertwining, right, married or otherwise, if you start pulling your resources and live in the same house and just share lives, it poisons it and it does it so slowly.
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: That don't notice until you've spent 5, 10, 15 years, right, and this thing that just got poisons really, really, really slowly.
32:43
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what's so terrifying to me about it.
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: and the people causing the harm and air quotes, honestly, not all of them know.
32:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, right if you have like a little like magical fairy and they're like, hey, this is harmful.
32:54
[SPEAKER_00]: They'd be like, oh, well, I'll choose a different thing.
32:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you try to save, that's harmful, that's not right.
32:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a dish.
33:01
[SPEAKER_00]: it's a dish.
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just about so much of this is about changing the narrative around marriage and we've talked about this in previous episodes too, is that somehow it's acceptable to say for my girlfriend to say, oh I have two kids and one big kid because then they include their husband in that story and everyone laughs about it.
33:21
[SPEAKER_01]: like a ha ha your husband's a big kid or the idea of once you get married your wife becomes your mother and everyone laughs about ha ha isn't that the kind of fun thing and we just kind of accept this narrative because it's portrayed in media also it's what we've seen in our parents as well and for anybody who's not in a relationship or thinking about getting into a relationship I think we all just need to sit up with ourselves and just change the
33:46
[SPEAKER_01]: what you perceive marriage to be and we can't just accept what other people have told us marriage is to be because when you do that you just kind of accept the behaviors and self-fulfilling prophecy it just keeps perpetuating.
33:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So we got to just redefine in what you're saying Matt is like redefine your values and what you expect from a marriage and make sure that it's what you want and not what you think society is telling you it should be.
34:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the happen I think a lot of people get married because exactly what you said they they just grow up and they see it and everybody around them's getting married and
34:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe they feel like they're biological clocks taking so to speak or, you know, all my friends and cousins and all these things.
34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And right, my parents are saying, when you're gonna have babies, I wanna be a grandparents, there's a million different versions of that story.
34:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe you're just dating for three years and it feels really bad, but you're like afraid to start over again.
34:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
34:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, I've caught all this time invested.
34:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not gonna find anybody better.
34:42
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what?
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You might not find anybody better.
34:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what I'm talking about.
34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not about trading up.
34:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about replacing human beings.
34:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's everybody has the same problems.
34:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Like everybody has the same weakness as so to speak, but who's gonna choose to show up for you?
34:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really, really important to still the same guy that leaves dishes by the same.
35:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not gonna disrespect you if you tell me it hurts you now.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure as hell, not going to leave a dish by this ink.
35:09
[SPEAKER_00]: If I understand that you perceive that to be a sign of disrespect and our relationship.
35:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
35:14
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you start having these conversations like early on?
35:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's like, I think a lot of it does stem from gender roles, right?
35:20
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, there's a lot that was expected of women that men didn't.
35:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think like the stuff that you said is in a way stereotypical.
35:27
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I won't do the dishes where I watch sports.
35:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that is very stereotypical gender roles.
35:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And we are now in a society where we don't want that.
35:35
[SPEAKER_03]: right?
35:35
[SPEAKER_03]: We want more equality.
35:37
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't want that to happen.
35:38
[SPEAKER_03]: But how do you even get to a place where one person recognizes that they're not carrying the load?
35:46
[SPEAKER_03]: How do we get there to begin with?
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: In the context of this super stereotypical conversation that is not entirely fair to 100% of the
35:56
[SPEAKER_00]: men passively letting these things fall to women.
36:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the invisible load, emotional labor, this idea of validating people's feelings and having healthy communication.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: These are like classic common symptoms that are showing up in heterosexual relationships over and over again.
36:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate that the onus sort of falls on women in the situation, but I'm afraid that it might in the context of dating.
36:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so let me ask you, if you don't mind, when you're sitting at that dinner table on that first day, or wherever, or second or third, you know, you're right, when is it okay to when do you feel safe bringing up big ideas that hint at this possibility of like, are you afraid to say it because you don't want to like communicate to the guy that you're thinking
36:40
[SPEAKER_00]: and you want them to like you, with all kinds of reasons I'm afraid to be honest when I want somebody to like me on the other side of that table, right?
36:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I've embraced this idea of this is all the shit that's wrong with me.
36:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Is everything that sucks about me?
36:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I want you to understand it because I am self-aware and be, I want you to get it.
36:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I want relationships to fail fast if they're going to fail fast.
36:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the way.
37:00
[SPEAKER_00]: honestly.
37:01
[SPEAKER_03]: So have that conversation really early of just like this is what I'm looking for.
37:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So me on the alternative, right?
37:08
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the argument for the one that drags out two years and ends miserable?
37:12
[SPEAKER_00]: We all do that.
37:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, I did it in my getting 41 now, but you know, I've had that like scenario play out, right?
37:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Where it's like, you know, like a year or two and then again,
37:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wish people would, it's so hard.
37:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's so hard to say that to somebody on the front end of marriage.
37:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really easy for me to sit here.
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But I got a split time, 50, 50, and not see my son half the time.
37:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't like that.
37:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to feel like regret.
37:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, some residual pain, listen, we're not whining about it anymore.
37:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not pleasant that I'm divorced 41 year old guy who sees this son half the time.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: not like it's not like a badge of honor or anything.
37:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's easier for me to champion the virtues of like enforcing your boundaries early and radical honesty and be courageous.
37:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would have never done that when I was 20, 25 years old.
37:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
37:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So right, like I'm trying to be like realistic about what's out there, but I would just encourage people to choose courageousness because you're not going to be happy with your life if you sort of end up with somebody who isn't going to honor your values.
38:10
[SPEAKER_03]: That's such a great piece of advice.
38:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that the people that aren't even asking those hard questions at the beginning, we talk about that a lot of like, we'd rather figure it out earlier and not have a amount to more if we're just totally incompatible.
38:24
[SPEAKER_03]: So 100% with you on that.
38:26
[SPEAKER_03]: But I feel like where I questioned it a little is like, if I'm on a date, because I'm very upfront early on, and someone's like, yes, I totally agree on it.
38:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Equality and sharing responsibilities, and that's them saying something.
38:38
[SPEAKER_03]: But what happens when it doesn't go into practice?
38:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think people have good intentions for the most part, but sometimes the follow-through isn't there.
38:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do you then have those conversations?
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what does that look like, right?
38:50
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of this stuff in materializes when you share space.
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: A ton of these conversations emerge when your roommates end or spending a lot of time together.
38:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Or quarantine together.
39:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So how when in a scenario in which you have two different addresses,
39:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And you are just seeing each other once a week twice a week.
39:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
39:10
[SPEAKER_00]: How would that conversation organically emerge?
39:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure.
39:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the conversation that would show up isn't the, like, emotional labor invisible load situation the dish by the sync per se.
39:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's the, hey, this happened and I felt bad situation.
39:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's the one where it's like, is that sort of a bitch trying to, like, decide for me whether it's okay or not, okay, for me to feel the things I feel.
39:33
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be to me the early relationship thing to like evaluate and talk to them got it like hey, and now like you're great and I would really like this thing to work out, but one thing I'm not going to tolerate is a human being who thinks that they get to decide for me, whether my feelings have merit, whether my beliefs have merit, I'm not going to choose to be with somebody and so the brave thing is can he courageously communicate that.
39:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Without, and you don't have to write, it doesn't have to be a threat.
39:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be mean.
40:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be, I really would love this to work, but it's not good for either of us for me to just feel bad all of the time.
40:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm simply not going to do it.
40:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, the whole choose yourself thing.
40:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You're good enough, and you're worth it, and choose yourself.
40:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I pointed at me earlier.
40:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I really am not, I'm not like a horrible person.
40:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the whole thing.
40:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter that I'm not horrible.
40:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean being in a relationship when you can't result in your life being painful and worse.
40:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it would be today.
40:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But like right hypothetically, all of these really great people out there.
40:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It has one has nothing to do with the other, and so you can't like a measure just on though, this is so kind, this is so nice, and this is so funny, and this is so smart.
40:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even about that, it's you have to have intentional conversations about what it means to show up for somebody, and everybody gets to decide for themselves.
40:53
[SPEAKER_00]: and my fear is that people that are 20 to 25, maybe don't even always know how to define their personal values and boundaries.
41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And don't blame them because I didn't either, but I love if they thought about it.
41:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do think that is the beauty of dating is that you're constantly trying to figure out where your boundaries are, what your needs are, what your values are.
41:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say in my current relationship, our roles are a little bit flipped.
41:15
[SPEAKER_01]: For the longest time, I thought I was just a perfect girlfriend, because none of my acts have ever expressed their needs or some sort of unhappiness with me.
41:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just assumed I was killing it at this girlfriend game.
41:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And my boyfriend right now is the first one to really call me out and not call me out in a way that's saying I don't like when you do this.
41:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But the way he frames it is, it really means a lot to me when you do this.
41:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And that puts it in perspective for me because it's not about the action.
41:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that it means a lot to him.
41:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what we can put into practice even more.
41:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wish I had done this in my early dating career.
41:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just put it in perspective of it means a lot to me when my partner does this for me.
42:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when people are dating in the very beginning of a relationship, even though the dish is in the trash and whatever, those are not scenarios that come up.
42:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're just practicing those statements with each other and say, it really means a lot to me when you do X, Y and Z.
42:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So UAE said the Matthews article changed your relationship.
42:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm coming back to it, you think I forgot, but I'll come back.
42:26
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you think hearing this type of stuff started conversations for you and changed your relationship?
42:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think, you know, you and I talked about this on a previous episode, which was when we first started dating I had a stick in the ground about my identity.
42:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, I'm an independent woman.
42:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I decide when I sleep over at your place I decide when I leave your place.
42:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I have full control of my life.
42:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Fuck you.
42:47
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't like me, you know that
42:48
[SPEAKER_01]: that kind of mentality.
42:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we had a lot of conflict where I guess not even conflict, just a lot of conversations about when I can sleep over.
42:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And at first I just didn't want to give up my my control.
43:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way he framed it to me was even though and I appreciate you being independent woman, that's what attracted me to you in the first place, it means a lot to me when you sleep over.
43:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way he framed it really helped me take my guard down.
43:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's not really about me in the situation.
43:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about how I can cater to my partners' needs.
43:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say this, and I can't believe I'm saying this out loud.
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I would have to express some gratitude for his ex-wife who probably planted the seed for something like this, so that he's able to act on it in his next relationship, because I can guarantee you he probably did not express in this way in his marriage, right?
43:44
[SPEAKER_03]: So do you think that he, or I mean, I guess in a way he kind of had the same situation that Matthew did that ended in divorce, like do you think that the same revolution was made from these experiences and how did that affect your current relationship?
44:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't speak directly to his relationship because I just don't want to try unfair to bring up details.
44:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But I will say from overall observation of all the divorce men I've talked to, these little things.
44:15
[SPEAKER_01]: only come up in couples counseling.
44:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they get blindsided.
44:18
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, wait, I don't know that putting away the laundry was so important to you.
44:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that really why we're in couples counseling?
44:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And the wife, her mind is already five years ahead.
44:29
[SPEAKER_01]: She's already projecting to five years from now because you didn't put away the laundry in the dishes, you left our kid in kindergarten because you forgot to pick up our kid because you're so irresponsible.
44:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like her mind is already skyrocketed elsewhere.
44:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where the disconnect is in that relationship is that to him he's still catching up to her she's already five years ahead.
44:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really do think that your article can really plant the seed at least for a lot of relationships and it's not just men because I sure as hell and very guilty for this is planting the seed and just
45:06
[SPEAKER_01]: shifting your perspective on the situation.
45:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a lot of women, we also need to state our needs without having the men in our lives trying to read between the lines.
45:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what drives a lot of people crazy is that we have to just be more direct.
45:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about the dishes.
45:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that it means a lot to me.
45:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It means a lot to me when you clear the dishes from the sink.
45:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to defend like vagueness because I couldn't agree more that directness would help so much, but I do want to be like a tiny bit empathetic about it.
45:37
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of women are being really, really mindful of the way they speak because they're thinking about all of the ways in which what they say next might impact the person, right?
45:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to cause a fight, I don't want to make him feel bad.
45:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want it right that's like the emotional labor that's like I'm responsible for managing everybody's feelings around here.
45:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean I don't know, you tell me if that's like I'm full of it, but I feel like a component of that lack of clarity is sometimes just them trying to keep the peace the best they can.
46:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, that's a really fair point because if you look at all the women's magazines and women's publications, it's always like how to speak husband speak, how to talk to your man, how to avoid conflict and relationship, and I sure as hell have not seen any of those articles in like men's health.
46:24
[SPEAKER_01]: right.
46:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're totally right.
46:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for so many decades now, women have been taught how to meet their partner.
46:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's time for men to also step up and also meet us halfway somewhere.
46:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and that's a really good segue to takeaways.
46:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think like there's so many parallels with just everything that's going on in the world right now is it's on us to educate ourselves, right?
46:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you're the one that isn't showing up and taking full responsibility, it shouldn't have to be your partner nagging you in doing that because that's gonna just keep building resentment.
47:02
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think what else I'm getting from this whole conversation and your blog and your coaching and all of this
47:10
[SPEAKER_03]: like before this stuff becomes a problem like having this as an awareness like in looking at like all relationships in your lives because not just romantic ones where this type of thing show up but I think romantic is amplified because you're like sharing a household with that person.
47:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I love this idea of just
47:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Starting these conversations early whether it's shared values and I think almost like what I've heard in this conversation is like there's like two things that are really coming out.
47:37
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like one does this person listen to me like when I express stuff.
47:42
[SPEAKER_03]: How do they react?
47:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they just get defensive?
47:45
[SPEAKER_02]: versus do they want to change?
47:46
[SPEAKER_02]: They want to get better, because I think that's one thing.
47:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Then the other piece is how much action do they actually do, right?
47:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, there's one thing to always say, like, I think UAU brought this up is like, you've had partners that are just like, yep, yep, and then they don't do it.
48:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And then that just builds more resentment.
48:02
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's like having the conversations, but then also the follow up action.
48:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I really love that.
48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my biggest takeaway is your actions matter just as much as the actions you do not take.
48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: The inaction can be just as detrimental in a relationship.
48:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And for all the couples out there because I've spoken to many of you who are in quarantine who are having these really
48:33
[SPEAKER_01]: a great thing because you need to have these uncomfortable situations and conversations in order to move forward and evolve your relationship.
48:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're just trying to keep the peace and not speak and not take the action, then it all builds up underneath and that's exactly how earthquakes happen, right?
48:52
[SPEAKER_01]: They just
48:52
[SPEAKER_01]: build up and then one day you're completely rattled and your relationship is exactly where you don't want it to be.
49:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really appreciate that piece of reminder that you gave us Matt.
49:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I also love this idea of every time your partner asks you to do something or make some request.
49:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Your partner is actually asking you to show up for them in that relationship.
49:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe you should just do a quick translation in your head when your partner asks you to take out the trash.
49:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Translation, babe, can you please show up for me in this relationship?
49:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for me that really helps because it lets my guard down, my pride sometimes gets in the way I can just sweep it off to the side and think I need to show up for my partner and prioritize him.
49:35
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a stat right out there that women are the ones that usually initiate divorce because I think a lot of times Oh yeah, it gets to that point where they're just done.
49:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think this getting ahead of it is early and often.
49:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know Matthew, yeah, I know you live and breathe this stuff, but is there any takeaways or closing remarks you have?
49:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Just the things you talked about right and it's seven out of ten, I believe statistically.
49:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know the exact number of divorces filed on average every day in the United States, but it is seven out of 10 initiated by women.
50:04
[SPEAKER_00]: UA sort of used like the earthquake analogy and I've always used the smoking in 1960 analogy.
50:11
[SPEAKER_00]: In 1960, people were smoking on airplanes in a classroom, so with the windows rolled up in their car and their babies in the backseat.
50:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And nobody thought twice about it.
50:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm, it was just we smoked.
50:19
[SPEAKER_03]: That was what people did.
50:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And then life happened and you know the American Cancer Society got involved and there's a bunch of medical data and we're like holy shit.
50:27
[SPEAKER_00]: This is bad for you and people get cancer and now
50:31
[SPEAKER_00]: pretty started to figure it out.
50:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Our now a society that fundamentally understands smoking equals this bad thing, very few people smoke relative to per capita, per capita, the 1960s.
50:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, that's what this has to be.
50:44
[SPEAKER_00]: People were doing things in 1960 that was harming their health and would eventually kill them without, honestly, without having any awareness that what they were doing would eventually kill them.
50:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine, and that's what I think relationship health is like today.
50:58
[SPEAKER_00]: people engage in activities that will end you and will hurt you or hurt them and there's no way you would choose that.
51:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what you would choose.
51:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You just don't even connect to those dots.
51:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think a lot of people are innocently blindly unawarely not a word.
51:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I hate like living these things and
51:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope we can eventually be having conversations where people think of a lot of these things that harm relationships in the way that we think about smoking today.
51:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I am aware that they cause problems and I'm going to actively choose to not be a part of it.
51:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a great analogy.
51:32
[SPEAKER_01]: that's really fantastic.
51:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's something we all need to hear right now.
51:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've gotten quite a few requests from couples who are going through a really difficult time right now.
51:43
[SPEAKER_01]: What is something that you can leave them with?
51:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think we need to go into like spiritual,
51:51
[SPEAKER_01]: However, everything's going to be fine.
51:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I love just, you know, love each other and put each other first.
51:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's great.
51:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But what is something really practical?
51:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You can give them that maybe we'll just help them get through today.
52:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, ask a question that you may not even want to answer.
52:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a largely female audience?
52:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it pretty diverse male female, do you know?
52:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Very diverse.
52:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's awesome.
52:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me let me like do the stereotype thing and talk to the guys and I apologize because I know that this is not one size fits all and it never will be but if you're a guy and if you identify with the story of I always respond to my partner one of three ways I correct her I say hey that did happen but your feelings are a little bit out of whack like why are you reacting that way or you explain yourself and defend it the kind of person that does that and again it's not like
52:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You just do it.
52:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I did it every day of my marriage probably try to notice that you do it and just try to replace that habit with seeing that hey my partner's afraid my partner's angry my partner's sad when I am angry when I'm afraid when I'm sad this is how I want people to show up from it.
52:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to intentionally choose to show up for them.
52:58
[SPEAKER_00]: and I'm going to just try to get busy understanding how that thing that's completely out of my line of sight could have made them feel that way.
53:05
[SPEAKER_00]: If you engage in that's not, it sounds like really way more comprehensive than it is.
53:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Just try to figure out what the problem is, try to figure out how he or she could come to that conclusion.
53:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you do that instead of the thing where you judge them and then try to correct it, it will change your life, it will.
53:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that
53:26
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are with someone who feels regularly invalidated when they try to communicate, what's going on in there, hearts and minds.
53:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Love that.
53:33
[SPEAKER_03]: That ring.
53:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I agree.
53:35
[SPEAKER_03]: That's like the most impactful thing anyone can do.
53:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you currently dating with your status?
53:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I, but it's funny.
53:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I like strategically didn't answer that question.
53:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not letting you off the hook though.
53:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny.
53:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I see one person and I'm in this funny place in life where, like I don't know what to do with myself, right?
53:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, you know, nobody's like talking marriage, but you know, we're not getting enough for like a year.
54:01
[SPEAKER_00]: She's lovely and I'm, you know, it's really gross how much better I am at treating.
54:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like someone I'm dating today versus my wife.
54:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to really discount complex about it every day.
54:11
[SPEAKER_03]: That's gross though.
54:12
[SPEAKER_03]: She's rough.
54:13
[SPEAKER_00]: She's really cool.
54:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure she wants to be my son's stepmother.
54:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea.
54:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You are.
54:17
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the most in-depth conversation I've ever had about.
54:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
54:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly.
54:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
54:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Glavi got it.
54:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you want to get married again?
54:25
[SPEAKER_00]: See, I'm not, I'm not a marriage advocate.
54:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not anti-marriage.
54:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm against people who want to get married, getting divorced and feeling horrible because of the things they don't know will harm them.
54:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the real crisis here in my estimation.
54:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't really care if people get married or not I just want them to be equipped with what they need to know if they do.
54:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I figure I'll know if I want to marry somebody again, right?
54:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll like be really apparent.
54:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
54:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
54:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And insane upside down sort of world I find myself in and when I start mixing Conversation dating and that it's I'm not sure what to say.
55:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know
55:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But if people do want to reach out to you, how can they find you?
55:05
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
55:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So my blog is called Must Be This Tall To Ride.com.
55:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, that's really the path right now.
55:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And they can find coaching services with you on their also.
55:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
55:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
55:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd try not to be like a horror about it.
55:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
55:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like now.
55:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to help.
55:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm here to help.
55:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I should say, I'm here to try to help if somebody thinks that I might be able to.
55:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not out there.
55:30
[SPEAKER_00]: saying, hey, I'm, I'm some answered to your problems.
55:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I'm not convinced that I am.
55:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes sharing my story helps another person say, that's a lot like me.
55:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they draw the same conclusions and just maybe that leads to them not going through, like, what I did.
55:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe more importantly, the partner not going through what my x-wasted.
55:47
[SPEAKER_01]: right.
55:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Really appreciate you speaking from the heart and sharing your story and also just it's a very humbling conversation that we just had about the realities of relationships, not just marriage, relationships.
56:00
[SPEAKER_01]: These relationships could be also just platonic relationships too and how much that can impact the rest of your life.
56:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And so again, really appreciate you you coming on the show and sharing your perspective.
56:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much and if you haven't done so yet subscribe to the psychology of relationships today so you don't miss an episode.
56:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye!