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Write Your Own Friendship Manual: Building Authentic Relationships While Neurodivergent with Lee Hopkins · Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes

• 0:02
  Podcast Intro/Outro: All right, gang. Here's to nights that turn into mornings and friends that turn into family. Cheers. Hello, hello, and welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host, Alex Alexander. Each week we talk about what is working(and what is not) in our friendships, community and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what is really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections. Together, we're reimagining the rules of friendship
• 0:57
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Have you ever felt like everyone else got some sort of manual for making friends, but your copy somehow got lost in the mail or like there's this invisible code connection that everyone else understands except you. Today's guest Coach Lee Hopkins knows that feeling intimately. He's a Social Connections and Business Culture Coach and CEO of Patterns of Possibility, dedicated to helping individuals and organizations build authentic relationships. He specializes in empowering late, diagnosed autistic adults, introverted millennials and business leaders to cultivate meaningful connections through authenticity, boundaries and conscious conversation. But his journey to this work started with his own decades-long struggle. What you're about to hear is a conversation about those moments when everything clicks into place, we dive deep into the process of discovering you're a person with autism and how that revelation impacts every single relationship in Your life, your community, friends, family, Coach Lee shares honestly about how some people were able to adjust and stay in his life while others fell away. And that point when people start to fall away, that point can feel incredibly low, because what if you never find your people. What if understanding yourself actually leaves you more alone? But today's story is one of hope and encouragement. Coach Lee is going to talk about how he found his people, and continues to find his people and add them to his Wheel of Connection, how he learned to advocate for himself in relationships, and most importantly, how he can help you do the same. If you have ever felt like you were masking parts of yourself just to fit in, or if you're curious about what it really means to build authentic relationships when your brain works differently, then this conversation is going to resonate really deeply.
• 3:24
  Alex Alexander: Hi Lee. I am so excited you're here, and I want to say, Well, you wouldn't be here if you hadn't just taken the risk and done a cold outreach, like that's how we met each other, is you took a brave move and reached out to me.
• 3:40
  Lee Hopkins: Absolutely. I'm glad to be here, too, and I'm glad that it did that outreach.
• 3:42
  Lee Hopkins: It's been pretty successful and and scary to do it, but hey, there's always something amazing on the other side. I think that's you.
• 3:53
  Alex Alexander: Oh, sweet of you, even if it takes a while, you know, we connected. Gosh, I should have looked through my emails. I'm gonna guess, like, 2022 maybe 2023
• 4:04
  Lee Hopkins: Yeah, time has flown by.
• 4:06
  Alex Alexander: Yes, we have, like, it's been a long time, and then I wasn't feeling great, which we've already talked about. People on my podcast have heard about that plenty of times. So it like, took us a second, and then I reached back out and, like, you never know where a connection is going to go.
• 4:22
  Lee Hopkins: Yeah, that's so true, and I'm so glad that you did too just time you never know what's going on the other side of the fence either.
• 4:30
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, that's so true. Well, I thought a great way to get into today's episode is just to talk about how you got in to the field of connection, like doing this work, how you got here? Like, what drew you to this?
• 4:46
  Lee Hopkins: What drew me to it?
• 4:46
  Lee Hopkins: Well, just me 10-20 years ago, I think what, that's what it was just my life experience, you know, struggle with making friends for my entire life. I struggled with trying to build those connections that. That, you know, you see on TV, because I grew up in the 90s, and I was watching these TV shows like full house and family matters were a show that people always had fast friends and they had really great relationships. I mean, the 90s was basically about a show called friends. So I was just like, Well, why can't I make those things? Why can't I make that? And I thought, well, if I just get out of my hometown, if I just move somewhere else, I can find the right people, if I just keep going and just keep trying different things, and it just didn't work, and I just kind of had to sit down and take a moment to see what was going on with me in my life. Why wasn't I able to make those connections?
• 5:38
  Lee Hopkins: And I really just started to become more obsessed with it. I realized that the quality of my life would improve, and I can't just ignore this. Opportunities to work for Jobs came, and there's always a focus to make money, be successful in that way. But I couldn't ignore the fact that I was struggling with my relationships, and so the relationship piece took priority over it, and over making money or anything like that took priority over it. And so I became more obsessed and focused and working on those things. And then once I discovered that I am the problem with me, because, you know, I can, oh, I'm doing all the things. I mean, I'm taking responsibility to say it in a better way that I can take responsibility and ownership in my life. I thought, wow, there are a lot of people like me 10 years ago, 15 years ago, who don't know what they can do or what they have been doing to kind of mess up their relationships. So I started to move in the direction of, I know this really great thing. It has worked so well for me, I need to tell everybody. And so I started to become more obsessed with that. And about five years ago, I started to really work in it.
• 6:50
  Lee Hopkins: And then three years ago, I quit my full time job to do this full time.
• 6:56
  Alex Alexander: Congrats.
• 6:58
  Lee Hopkins: Thank you.
• 6:58
  Alex Alexander: But also I just think that's a story that, like you said, so many people are gonna identify with, like wanting something that they feel like maybe everybody has, or a lot of people have those connections not having it going on this journey. What I will say is, it does sound like you made it very far on the journey. You know, you really put in the time and the effort, and, like, with every failure, you kept going.
• 7:26
  Alex Alexander: Because some people get discouraged, and I think that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Is like, that's where you've come in and coach people and help them, is like, keep going
• 7:36
  Lee Hopkins: absolutely you know, that means a lot that you said that I made it so far on my journey, because for a really long time, it felt like everyone else knew this thing and everybody else had these really great relationships. Look over there. They're getting married.
• 7:49
  Lee Hopkins: Look over there. They're in a long term relationship. Look over there. They're best friends having sleepovers together.
• 7:53
  Lee Hopkins: Like, what am I doing wrong? And so knowing that other people feel that way too, and they're looking from the outside. They didn't really know what's going on inside. You know, that's really, feels really great to know that I have made it far and kind of figured out what those little things are happening on the inside, so that I can bring them to other people.
• 8:17
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: If the person we are describing feels like, Wait, are you talking about me? Is this a story about me? And you feel like everyone else has it figured out, and you don't when it comes to making and maintaining friendships? Then I just want to drop in with a couple quick reminders, no matter how your brain works, I think that this is important, and sometimes you just need to hear somebody else say it, so I'm gonna say it ready. Two things. Number one, TV is designed and written to get ratings and to keep you watching. Therefore, the friendships, relationships that you see on TV are either an idealized version that looks so perfect or like aspirational or a dramatized version that keeps you intrigued, because the drama is just so much. This isn't real life, okay? Two, I'm gonna tell you a little story. I was talking to someone at a networking event recently, and I have met this person a number of times before. I've followed this person on social media for a while, and I had made assumptions about their friendships. You see, it seemed like they had this trio of friends that was super duper close. And I've mentioned to you before that people sometimes, you know, just like, open up, kind of like a, like, a friendship confessional to me.
• 9:45
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: So this person proceeds to tell me that in this trio, they're actually really, really close to one person, and they aren't as close to the other, like the second person B. They don't.
• 9:59
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Don't really hang out one on one. They don't really talk one on one that they want to get closer to this person, but they don't really know how. And I'm telling you this as a reminder that we have no clue what is going on in other people's friendships, none. I really thought I knew what was happening. I was obviously very wrong. I made incorrect assumptions. So this is your reminder that if you want to make connections for yourself, put up your blinders. Stop comparing your friendships and your connections to everyone else's, because what you're probably doing is comparing your behind the scenes to everyone else's highlight reel, and that's not really a comparison.
• 10:47
  Lee Hopkins: One of the biggest things is being authentic. And I know I've heard that, and I've heard you have to love yourself first too. Those are really true things. Those are two things that you really need to do. But what is loving yourself first?
• 11:00
  Lee Hopkins: And no one sat down and explained that to me, but I thought everybody else knew what it was. Every time I heard you've got to love yourself first, it meant something that was shameful, like, well, you let your friends use you and take advantage of you because you don't love yourself. Okay? I get it. Okay. I've heard that for the 10th, 1520, I've heard that too many times. All right, I'm ready. I got my pen and my paper because obviously I don't know what I need to do to love myself. Tell me, and I wait, and no one can tell me. Yeah, they can tell me. So okay, well, I need to figure this out on my own, because obviously you don't know. And you know, one of the things I discovered, Alex is definitely, if people are telling you you need to love yourself first, and you look at their relationships, they don't look anything like you want them to be, your relationships to be they're not the person to help you find the right relationships. That's one I think I discovered too.
• 12:02
  Alex Alexander: I mean, I think that's an important discovery.
• 12:04
  Alex Alexander: And I mean, there's, there are just so many discoveries in there, like listening to your story, so many people, we all throw around these words or these phrases. I mean, it's kind of similar to what brought me to this work, right? Is like, find connection. If you and I, you know, there's that trend on social media where somebody takes a microphone and walks down the street, this would be fun. I'll come to Chicago, you and I will do it. We're gonna walk down the street and we're gonna be like, walk up to people and be like, what is connection?
• 12:35
  Alex Alexander: Most people would just stare at us. Like, people don't have a way to describe it, similar to, like, tell me how you love yourself.
• 12:44
  Lee Hopkins: Yes,
• 12:46
  Alex Alexander: we just say these things. And you know, I don't think there's necessarily a succinct answer, but the way for people to find the answer that feels right to them is to have conversations like this that people can listen to. But how many times, I guess you know, have you ever had the chance to sit down on a conversation of two people, like really talking about, well, loving themselves means to them on the daily?
• 13:11
  Lee Hopkins: Not often. Yeah, not often.
• 13:15
  Alex Alexander: And then that just gets really frustrating.
• 13:17
  Lee Hopkins: Mm, hmm, that it kind of disparages you a bit because you're looking for the answer, or quote, the answer, and I discovered that I just can't find it by sitting and reflecting on my own. I mean, there are some ways to get information. You're sitting and meditating, reflecting, but like you said, in conversation, and when someone shares their perspective with you, or they've been thinking about it, what does this feel like to me? What does this look like to me? And they share it with you, it brings up something within you, or together, you start to connect and make that chemistry and that conversation, that connection, and if no one's talking about it, then you don't get that opportunity, and you feel quite lost,
• 14:05
  Alex Alexander: yeah, and you know that lost feeling again, they're just there's so many people experiencing that. So I'm grateful that we're having these conversations.
• 14:14
  Lee Hopkins: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:14
  Lee Hopkins: And I'd be interested to hear from your audience what their idea of connection is to start that conversation. If you don't have anyone in your life that wants to have that conversation with you, then we can just have one here, a large conversation about it.
• 14:31
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I mean, I would love to talk to everybody, because I think that's it, right? You like crowdsource these answers. You like something will kind of shake out. You'll start to see similarities. You'll see ways people are doing it or not doing it, or you're right. So much of it, if you're in your own head, you got to get out. You got to get out, and you got to connect with other people, is the moral of that story. And you know, I think that actually leads in to something I want. Talk about on this episode something you and I have already talked about. So I'm not bringing this up out of left field for anybody who's listening, but that's just like big self realizations we have about ourselves because of what other people are talking about.
• 15:14
  Alex Alexander: And I you know where I'm leading here, but you and I both have had some pretty big self realizations, and I don't want to steal you talking about yours. So do you want to share a little bit your Self Realization from recent years?
• 15:27
  Lee Hopkins: Oh, sure, I appreciate that. So I've discovered that I'm autistic and looking back on the kind of relationships that I've had, and it just kind of makes sense. But the way I discovered that through conversation, through other people, was through TikTok. I spent a lot of time on TikTok. I I could have sworn that I was not ever going to get on TikTok, but as soon as I got on TikTok, I got hooked. I love TikTok. Yeah, safe place here.
• 15:53
  Lee Hopkins: Yeah. It sucked me in. And one of the amazing things about TikTok is that based on your preferences or based on what you like, it'll continue to show you more of the things that also it'll show you things that they think you might like. And so I kept seeing people who identified as autistic describe experiences and thought process and patterns the way I would, and I thought, I'm not autistic, though, and then I would swipe, and I would see another one, and then swipe and I would see another one, and I'd read the comments, and I'm like, I would have said exactly that I must be. No wait, let me go some more research. And so I did more research, and I looked in the Autistic community and the conversation about it, and I've learned that there's, you know, when I think of autism, when I did think of autism, I thought of high need support. Need a lot of support. You non verbal, high sensitivity, basically, like the Rain Man, they're really a savant, a genius, and I'm like, I'm not those things. I'm a varying degrees of those things.
• 16:59
  Lee Hopkins: But then I found that diving into these conversations, reading what other people were talking about, their experiences were just like mine, and they and more than just two or three people, hundreds of people, identified as autistic. And I'm like, okay, that must be so let me read about what it means to be autistic, and that fits. Let me do an evaluation. Oh, wow, even more of it fits. And because I've found more about myself through other people in conversation, I now know who I'm talking to in conversation.
• 17:34
  Lee Hopkins: Like, why am I the way I am and the way I want to speak, and how I get annoyed with certain things and sounds, and why I eat the way I eat, things like that, and then autistic obsession, where I'm just eating a bunch of safe foods I can basically eat the same thing for, you know, three-four months every day, and that's what I prefer, and don't ask me to change it. I'm fine, just the way I am. You know, that's the thing. I don't want anybody to interrupt my routine, but I didn't know that that was why. And so knowing that about myself, being able to share that with other people helps me inform the kind of relationships I create, too, because I want people to know this about me.
• 18:18
  Lee Hopkins: I'm not weird and that's strange. And if you think that's weird or strange, then I can just kind of push you a little bit off to the side.
• 18:27
  Alex Alexander: They should go do it like that on
• 18:29
  Lee Hopkins: Yeah, I can just like it helps me inform the kind of relationships I want to create, and it gives them an idea of who I am, how I'm going to show up for them too.
• 18:39
  Alex Alexander: Well, number one, thank you for sharing that here. I know that's not a surprise. You talk about this on your platform, but you know finding out is a lot, and I've mentioned this before in previous episodes, but I had a very similar experience when it came to ADHD. I figured out I had ADHD from watching TikTok videos, where I obviously was watching them all the way through, so the algorithm kept feeding them to me, and I kept being like, wow, that's really okay. And then, you know, I do the next one in one night I was watching, I mean, you'll never forget the moment you're like, wait, what? Yeah, I was just sitting there watching some videos. It was the NBA Playoffs.
• 19:22
  Alex Alexander: My husband was sitting next to me. He could probably kind of hear the video, and he just turned and he's like, Are you starting to think that these are kind of creepy, how spot on they are. I was like, Yeah, but I kind of pushed it aside, and a couple days later, I saw two videos, one of which talked about how, like, overwhelming, just like cleaning your kitchen is, and when I tell you, I just cried about this, oh, like, two days, exactly what they described. And then the other one was this video about, like, a shame spiral, where there were days where I wouldn't be. Able to get through any task, like I would try, and it just felt like I was hitting a brick wall, and at the end of the day I would feel ashamed because, like, why couldn't I do this? And I just thought that everyone else had some hack or some planner or some tip or trick, and I had tried all of them. I tried everything, and that was the one that finally I was like, wait. I just figured everyone felt this way, and apparently they don't.
• 20:32
  Alex Alexander: So you know what? I think that TikTok is again, just like this forum of all these conversations that people are having, that we get to listen in on. And I'm just so grateful that that exists.
• 20:51
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I am popping in because I want you to know that if you want other episodes about being a neurodivergent person who is looking for friendship and connection, or you want to connect with a neurodivergent person in your life, in your community, at work, whatever. I have some other episodes about this, and at this point, this is going to be episode 144 so maybe you've listened to them all. If you have message me, I would love to chat with you. Oh my gosh, that's a lot of hours for us to hang out, but it's hard to search in there. Now, I promise I'm working on some better ways for us to have kind of like a catalog, but I want to tell you that I have two other episodes that are directly about friendships and neuro divergence. They are episode 40 and episode 54 I will link both of them in the show notes. And then I want to put a little other aside in here, which is that, honestly, I have had quite a few neuro divergent guests, people who have disclosed to me or on their work. They are upfront about the fact that they are neurodivergent. So that is how I know this is not my assumption. They have either told me or publicly stated it, and those episodes don't necessarily center around being neurodivergent. However, I still think that the way that people are talking about approaching friendships is possibly something that would work for other neurodivergent brains, right? Their brains work that way. Your brain works that way, potentially might be worth listening to. So if that's the case, and you want to know some of those guests, and you want to go listen to their episodes, send me a message, and I will send you a list of who you should go listen to.
• 22:44
  Lee Hopkins: I'm right with you, because I don't think I would have discovered this because I wasn't looking for it in particular. It just kind of came to me, and then same with you.
• 22:53
  Lee Hopkins: It's like, well, everybody feels this way. It's not a big deal.
• 22:55
  Lee Hopkins: Or there's something that maybe I don't know, and some people are just faking until they make it, that's what you do. I'm not special or different. They're unique here anyway, and nobody else can relate to this exact thing and will share it, will they? But no surprise, TikTok will and, you know, having these kind of conversations really creates that space for it. So it's really awesome to be able to continue having these kinds of conversations and being able to connect with people that make us feel less alone,
• 23:27
  Alex Alexander: absolutely, absolutely and just, you know, like, less I don't know guilty or ashamed. Oh yeah, I was just so mean to myself. Oh yeah, back in the day, and now I'm just so much kinder because I have an understanding.
• 23:47
  Lee Hopkins: Yeah, it's really easy to finally say something like, I have my own preferences, and this is kind of what I want to do, as far as food or the way I want to talk or connect with people. I used to feel so ashamed that I couldn't keep up and do the things people wanted me to do the way I wanted them to do. I couldn't be that person, but being kinder to myself because, oh yeah, there was autistic burnout, or there's that shame spiral that she talked about with ADHD. It's like, these are things that happen. Okay, just like Coach Lee, these are things that happen. It's okay, Alex, these are things that are happening.
• 24:23
  Lee Hopkins: It's okay, and it doesn't help to put that shame on top of it.
• 24:26
  Lee Hopkins: And when you listen to other people who have experienced this, and they've been through it, they'll tell you, it doesn't help you. Here's what does help.
• 24:37
  Lee Hopkins: Here's what you were looking for. Yeah, that will help you.
• 24:40
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, yeah. And then tools and therapies and accommodations, like so many things start to appear, and we don't need to go deep. I just wanted to share, like I had a similar experience of finding out through kind of the public forum, and I'm so grateful that we're talking about that, because. Because we don't need to go down this rabbit hole. But you've, maybe you've had a similar experience of like, sometimes you tell a doctor that you had this realization through TikTok, and they're, like, very judgmental about it, and I get so up in arms. I'm like, Would it be any different if I was sitting in the waiting room with 10 people who were talking to me? Like, move on. Move on.
• 25:18
  Alex Alexander: people
• 25:22
  Lee Hopkins: That sense of authority I give the diagnoses here,
• 25:27
  Alex Alexander: well, they did give me the diagnoses in the end, like I still had to go follow all the procedures. I just realized it differently.
• 25:31
  Alex Alexander: So, you know what's different than, yeah, like sitting in a waiting room or back if there was still, like a public laundry space. I was like, at the laundromat or the washroom or whatever, like, that's how we used to figure this stuff out.
• 25:46
  Alex Alexander: So absolutely, this is just the modern day version.
• 25:51
  Lee Hopkins: Absolutely, it's just conversation. What did you learn? I learned the same thing, yeah. And then collectively gasping, being all with each other.
• 26:01
  Alex Alexander: So when you figured out that you are a person with autism, what kind of I guess, like social situations, patterns, like, are there certain things that started to maybe stand out to you that were like, oh
• 26:18
  Lee Hopkins: yeah, oh yeah, oh my. One of the things that really bothered me was going along to get along. The discovery of autism, for me is really new. I would say in the last eight months, six eight months, it's really new. And so once I started to lean into it, I started to not want to pretend that I didn't understand what people were saying to me, or I didn't want to. I could catch some of the social cues, and I could catch what people wanted me to do or they implied, and before I would kind of go along because I felt guilty, or that's what everybody else was doing, even though I knew that it's not something I wanted to do. And then when I stepped into this autistic space, and I wanted to be more direct, and I wanted to have my words be very clear.
• 27:14
  Lee Hopkins: Didn't want any room for any misunderstanding. I wanted to say things directly to people. I was genuinely surprised that people hated it. Oh, tell you, I was genuinely surprised so I was working for a nonprofit organization or with with a nonprofit organization. She was a volunteer organization, volunteer spot, and had some leadership. And they would constantly imply things, and they would say things that they would give me tasks that weren't very clear to me. And so I would ask for I would ask clarifying questions. I don't like that. I can't clarify. I'm not I'm going to give you this, this and that, a time frame, or this or that, and like, can you give me a date, a time that it's due. They couldn't do things like that, and so I wanted to tell them about how it impacted me. Yeah, they didn't like that. And it wasn't in a way that was, oh, you suck and you can't do your job, or you don't know how to lead, but certainly something along the lines of, well, it would help me plan my day better, if I could know when what exactly you needed me to do. And was surprised, a lot of people didn't like that kind of thing. And I'm learning as being a person with autism, as you said, and taking that with me, because I said it was new for me, I like that person with autism and sharing with allistic people, some people who feel insecure, they feel attacked by that. I needed directions from you, exact steps from you. And I think it's what I gather. It's because, as much as my brain thinks in patterns and lists, and it's very clear they're not so they're in a nuance, and the other people who understand the nuance will just do the thing and they'll get it, realizing that this communication gap is something that I'm aware of, and I think it takes the onus on me to express Yeah, and to try to get them to understand me using their language. And I know a lot people may hear this and say, That's masking. Oh, yes, it is.
• 29:34
  Lee Hopkins: It's important in certain social situations, if you're working, if you're trying to get a task done that's bigger than you and your feelings. Then you mask and you get it done. But at the same time, I recognize that a person who speaks that way to me, I cannot be close to them, yeah, because it's exhausting, yeah.
• 29:55
  Lee Hopkins: And so just being able to recognize or your personal autism or. You're a neurodivergent person. Those are people that I love. They I usually get along with them a little better because of the thinking. I want it closer to you. And as I started to speak very clearly and plainly, a lot of the holistic relationships started to implode and explode, because I would just start saying things directly, like, I'm being super clear. Why are you mad at me? All right, I don't want to deal with your frustration with the fact that you can't understand me, and those were all like surface level relationships anyway,
• 30:27
  Alex Alexander: yeah, well, I'm just, I'm really sorry that that's your experience, but I'm sure that is the experience of many people, you know, and I would hope that by having more conversations out there like this that, you know, maybe some of those holistic people can realize, like, it's worth doing the work to find a middle ground, to find accommodations, to shift, to do some things differently. You know, I am neurodivergent, so I kind of, I'm not a person with autism, but I fall in this interesting I can see nuance in conversation.
• 31:06
  Alex Alexander: I can whatnot, but I have some friends, I've friends with autism, and what my experience has been on that side, this is just me, is that it's actually such a relief to know, because then I can start being curious, right? And I can try and make subtle changes. I can understand that like when I'm speaking with nuance and subcontext and my friend is staring at me with a blank stare. I can be like, Oh, okay, back up. Try again. Let's figure this out, right? Because I want to stay connected.
• 31:50
  Lee Hopkins: So, yeah, I just love to jump in and say, that's wonderful. I would love if somebody would be able to do that for me, because I was always walking around thinking people understood something I didn't understand, and when I looked at them like I didn't understand, I felt like an idiot, yeah, and then when I had the gall to ask them, I felt like even more of an idiot and ashamed because I didn't know.
• 32:15
  Lee Hopkins: And here you are a friend who recognizing that I'm like a deer in the headlights and that you're like, Lee, you're going to shame spy where you can. You want to ask, I know you want to ask, maybe even know what to ask, but I got you, I'm going to tell you. I'm going to help clear it up for you, and we can have a conversation about it. I think that's so special and so important to have a friend who sees you like I would feel seen.
• 32:39
  Alex Alexander: You know, I hope that having conversations like this, maybe inspire someone to just pause for a second and think it through. Right. The goal here, whether it is a very close friendship or somebody you have to work with somebody in your community, is to maintain whatever that level of connection is, and it's going to involve a paradigm shift that I'm sure every person with autism would love to see. But it's like, can we find a way to connect? Because I'm telling you when I try, and I'm saying try, because it's not like I get it right all the time, absolutely not. But when I put in a little effort, it's not that hard to all my holistic people out there. It's not that hard. It really just requires me to slow down, to notice some cues of somebody seeming a little confused, to maybe try some different back and forth to whatever I mean, sometimes I find myself calling out just like, I mean, I'll say something like, wow, I really skirted around that, like I wasn't direct. I will call out like I messed that up. I know you want to direct your answer, yeah, people, it could be as simple as that.
• 34:00
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I am, in no way, shape or form, an expert in what I'm about to talk about, but I'm just gonna tell you my personal experience.
• 34:04
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Okay, it is not right or wrong.
• 34:09
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: It has worked for me so far.
• 34:09
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: People have seemed appreciative of it, but I also would not be offended if I tried what I'm about to tell you with somebody and they didn't like it okay? I tried my best, and I would learn from that. I'd ask why they're offended. So I just mentioned that I have multiple people in my life with autism. I always have for honestly, as long as I can remember, and when I kind of breeze over this, like, oh, I stop. You might be like, what does that actually look like?
• 34:44
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: And it really guys, it just looks like curiosity. It's when I can tell that somebody is lost in the conversation. Or I was trying to be, like, funny and like, here's an example. Give them a compliment, but I did it in kind of a sarcastic way. And.
• 34:59
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: They seem offended. It's because a lot of people with autism can't read kind of the sub context. They have a really hard time with linking what you said when it doesn't match, maybe your body language or your tone or doesn't make sense. Most people with autism that I have met want a very direct conversation. Don't try and be creative about it. And so if I'm in my normal speech patterns and I'm just chatting it up, and I'm in my like, sarcastic body language, whatever, and they look confused, this is where I stop and try and be really intentional. Like, hey, let me try that again. No, no. Like, I really want to. I want to learn for how we can connect and give it a shot, and I will take feedback. I will try again a different way. I don't compare one person with autism to another the way that one person might need to hear it for it to connect in their brain. Could be different than another person, and I'm just trying to learn each person's preferences, because I care about these people, and I want them to feel included in conversations. Yes, it is some work upfront, but once you start to understand what connects and what doesn't with people with autism in your life, it just becomes a little, tiny shift I make in conversation that makes us feel so much more connected. So I don't know if that's a good answer. My answer my answer is curiosity and grace for both of you and trying and trying again with the end goal of feeling connected.
• 36:53
  Lee Hopkins: It could be, it's so amazing. I'm like, over here, loving this. It could be just as simple as pointing out your behavior and how you're showing up.
• 37:01
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is like it should be a relief to know that, like your friend, this person, your coworker, is a person with autism. If you just spent 20 minutes learning about some of the social dynamics that are different, it should be relief, not an additional burden. Yes, yes, dear people put me on the megaphone like, come on.
• 37:31
  Lee Hopkins: Yes, I think we could do a whole nother episode about why people would feel like it's a burden to them. It's like there's something that they have to change, or they have to do, or they but it doesn't have to be hard, just like you said, doesn't have to be this very simple one sentence.
• 37:50
  Alex Alexander: And I would imagine some of it is maybe right, like people trying to get it right. Oh, and like wanting to do it right in the first place, wanting to be perfect at it, wanting to get it. Like holistic people, right? Move through the world getting it, they get the nuance, like it's natural. So now you're forced to think differently, but like, you just gotta get let go of the perfection.
• 39:17
  Lee Hopkins: Yes, just let go that and let it be. And it's a connection. It is really a connection. So the work I'd like to say is just not on holistic people as well. I mean, I'm doing work here on being a person with autism on the side and recognizing when my words are too direct. It's both of us were doing the work to find that connection and understanding together. Yeah, it doesn't happen with one person. Yeah.
• 39:44
  Lee Hopkins: And so if they don't get it exactly right, that's great I can work and help them get to it, and if I don't get it exactly right, that's great.
• 39:51
  Lee Hopkins: They can have patience and work and help me get to the point where I understand them too.
• 39:58
  Lee Hopkins: It's that point where we are just like, we shouldn't get it.
• 40:00
  Lee Hopkins: I don't get it. Yeah, that's God. Let's not just talk to each other.
• 40:06
  Alex Alexander: It's just so sad, because sometimes it's those could be good relationships with people. Yeah, anyways, okay, before I get sad about it, I mean, you talked a little bit about this co worker relationship. I've talked to a few people autism on the podcast, and everybody has a different experience. What was your experience of finding this out on maybe some of your more established relationships, like, did it change dynamics? Were people like, Oh, that makes sense. Did you know there could be any range of experiences here?
• 40:42
  Lee Hopkins: Yes. So for my more established relationships, let's see they would say that, okay, that makes sense. I'd have to explain to them, first of all, a bit of what autism looks like, because my more established relationships to autism was what I thought autism was. And so I had to say a little bit of my characteristics and how I show up in how my thought process is.
• 41:07
  Lee Hopkins: Are and patterns of behavior and so forth, and they're like, oh, okay, yeah, I can see that.
• 41:09
  Lee Hopkins: Okay, it makes sense. No big deal. Not a big thing. Great.
• 41:12
  Lee Hopkins: More established relationships.
• 41:16
  Lee Hopkins: After I give them a little more explanation, I'm not sure whether or not they appreciate or know how to do anything with this information, because I just continue to tell them, and it's a natural thing for me to just continue to tell them, Oh, this is how I do things, yeah, this is how I do things. This is how I do things. And I continue to tell them, or if I point out, like, I'm going to point out their behaviors, and I'm like, Oh, I notice your behavior. This is what I think of it. This is basically what I just did was an autistic thing. Okay, just continue to tell them. And so I haven't had anybody say anything negative or hurtful about it, or push back at it, or say that's weird yet. So that's good for my more established relationships.
• 42:02
  Lee Hopkins: I'm happy that's happening for you. Yeah, thank you. Yes. So as far as the other relationships, they've just imploded. I I'm gonna laugh at this situation myself, because I I thought, well, those relationships, I felt like I had to pretend in those relationships, and I just don't want to do that anymore.
• 42:20
  Lee Hopkins: And it was just more of a click.
• 42:20
  Lee Hopkins: It's over. I don't need to do anything else with that. That was my first initial thing when, when I started to really dive into the autism and the patterns, and just wanted to unmask with everybody, and pushed everybody away. And then I took a moment to grow, and I reflected, and I went back to try to see if there was anything to salvage in those relationships with people who did want to talk to me, but I explained to them, This is who I am, this is how I show up, how I'm going to show up. And gave them the option if, whether or not they wanted to continue to relationship. And as I think about this now, none of them wanted to. None of them wanted to. There they were, all surface level relationships. The way I communicate is now not forced.
• 43:08
  Lee Hopkins: It's more natural to me, and we just didn't continue to connect.
• 43:15
  Lee Hopkins: And I'm not upset about this.
• 43:15
  Lee Hopkins: I'm very delighted to understand more about what I don't want, yeah, and so I get more of what I do want.
• 43:25
  Alex Alexander: I think that's a very common experience, from what I've heard, and I'm just, you know, good for you. You're doing whatever you feel is right? That's the biggest thing.
• 43:35
  Alex Alexander: It's like, some people fight it, whatever that is, like you're going with your gut. It sounds like, and not, you know, feeling like regret or pulled back, or,
• 43:45
  Lee Hopkins: yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. I feel more I did it initially, so I don't want to skip over that part, but I did.
• 43:53
  Lee Hopkins: I was like, oh my, nobody's ever gonna What if I can't I just maybe I should go back and try.
• 43:58
  Lee Hopkins: And I did, and I got I felt icky, I felt awful. And so that was enough for me to say, either leave, you're going to be alone right now and you're gonna let go of those relationships, or, you know, back to those relationships, and you're gonna feel icky. So what would you want to do? Right be alone for a bit and then figure out what I want. And that's part of what I do in my coaching. That is the whole key piece of the coaching, and that's what propels people forward, I think, to make the kind of relationships, to create the friendships that they want in real life, because they're tired of feeling terrible.
• 44:33
  Lee Hopkins: They're just tired of it, and they've recovered from feeling terrible. They've had a friendship break up, and then they go back to the friendship, and it feels awful, and they break up again, and go back to the friendship, and then they break up and they're like, What am I doing? I gotta be able to do something different. Then the whole world starts to open up for you. You start scrolling on TikTok, and you realize that you are a person with autism, or you person with ADHD, you're a neurodivergent person, and it makes sense why your relationships didn't work before. Yeah, and now you can start going in a different direction that you've never thought of before.
• 45:10
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you're talking about something I talk about all the time, which is, like, adding what you need. And I understand I was at rock bottom at one point. Everybody has their versions of rock bottom. If your whole life's kind of turned upside down, your identity or whatever, like, it can be hard to add. It's scary to add, right? There's like, fear of, what if I don't find the right people and I'm alone? I mean, you kind of mentioned that, right? Like, I could just be me.
• 45:42
  Alex Alexander: At least I can be me. You know, it sounds like you didn't lose every relationship by any means.
• 45:48
  Alex Alexander: But have you now started to maybe add people to your life that feel good, like maybe sought out more neurodivergent community, or leaned into a special interest, or reconnected with or connected deeper? I don't whatever it could be, but like kind of have you focused on. Adding somewhere
• 46:08
  Lee Hopkins: Absolutely, that's a really great question. I'm so excited that you asked me that, like, yes, yeah, yeah. So I've thought about the kind of people that I need in my life. I need those people who are my peers, people who want to do those fun things with me. I want to hang out with me. I've been in search of those people, and they're definitely part of neurodivergent community. And even within those people who are doing fun things with me, there are only certain things that they will do with me, like one person will go to the museums with me, and we'll hang out, and we'll see each other every once in a while, every couple of three months, or something like that. Perfect. That's exactly what I'm looking for. Yeah. And then there's these closer people that I can talk to about what I ate and how it's the same and how I'm just going to keep eating the same thing, I can just talk about that the daily basis kind of thing. So I'm adding those people to my life, but also I'm adding mentors. I'm finding that in my business, I also need those people to be close to me, and they're they are a little more than people who are helping me build my business, but they know more about my personal life and how it affects my business, and they're older than me. That's important. They've been through the things they're older than me, and I didn't realize I needed those people, but I've been on lookout for them, and they've appeared and they understand all of this as I do this, all of this, the person with autism, and how I speak, and everything, lots of patience and understanding and adding those people into my life too.
• 47:36
  Lee Hopkins: So I definitely know that I need people, and now that I know that I need people, I know which people I need too and where they are and starting this conversations with them.
• 47:49
  Alex Alexander: I'm just so excited. Nobody can see me smiling really big over here. I mean, one, I love how excited you got about adding. Because I think to anybody who's listening, who's feeling maybe at that rock bottom, it's like, once you start to add, once you see that there are good people out there, yeah, it just becomes so fulfilling to start at like, a little bit more and a little bit more. It's like a, you know, the ball picks up speed as it rolls downhill. And you can tell that your ball is pretty big, rolling down the hill pretty fast at this point by your excitement.
• 48:23
  Lee Hopkins: Absolutely. It's like Katamari Damacy. I don't know if you know that game, but people who listen maybe listen to it, but I'm gonna look, okay, yeah, it's the 2004 or something like that. I think maybe older that. But anyway, yeah, it's just like that picking up steam building. And once I thought that there was nothing out there that could possibly cling to me and be interested in me. And now there's all the possibility, all the possibility out there.
• 48:51
  Alex Alexander: The other thing I can't get over that I am just so excited about in all my episodes, in 100 plus episodes, shocking, I've never had anybody talk about seeking out mentors.
• 49:03
  Alex Alexander: Ever I write about it in my book, but I've never had somebody bring it up, and I love that, because I just think so many people get fixated on this idea of finding like their next best friend, and it's like there's so many ways to add to your life that are so fulfilling. And seeking out somebody who is a mentor is just like such a beautiful way to add to your community.
• 49:34
  Lee Hopkins: Oh yes, absolutely, and it helps us not put those people who are best friends in places where mentors should be, because they've just experienced as much as you have in their life, and they couldn't guide you any further. You can take it from somebody who was 60 or 70 years old, you know, this is something I learned from such and such about my relationship, or this is what I've learned about building a business, or this is what I've learned about things in general. You can take a lot more from those people who've had some more years of experience. So it really makes sure you calibrate that. I mean, your peers are on your level, and they can definitely give you great advice and experience from their own experience. But there's somebody who has been through it and has been on the other side of it that just I would just want to listen to a little more, that I would trust a little more.
• 50:28
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, and you can build such a beautiful reciprocal relationship like you never know what that person needs. Maybe they just need connection. Maybe they want to give back. Maybe they live alone and love this excuse for regular like in person, connection.
• 50:42
  Alex Alexander: Maybe they love to talk to you about recent pop culture, because none of their friends are into it, but they pay attention like, we don't know, you don't know. So it's not even, it doesn't even have to be just like a take. It can be this beautiful reciprocal relationship. And you don't, you know. You don't know what that's going to look like till you get in it.
• 51:02
  Lee Hopkins: Oh yeah, I love that. You pointed that out, as I firmly believe that. The people who impart knowledge upon me, just they feel that they want to and grow and share their knowledge with other people, and they get the benefit of just doing that by talking to me, because they see something amazing in me. I think about that. And if they needed something like you said, learned about pop culture, I'm on TikTok, and they might not be on TikTok, or I know a couple of things that they may not know.
• 51:29
  Lee Hopkins: It's reciprocal. It's not just to give and give. I also like to share my knowledge with other people. I also want to be listened to, heard, respected, and if we just have that in the mentorship, it's not about them telling me everything that I need to know, and I need to do it this way. It's a mutual respect. But we talk about it from different angles.
• 51:49
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, yeah, wow.
• 51:49
  Alex Alexander: That's just really cool. Add to this episode. I'm really excited that you brought that in here.
• 51:56
  Alex Alexander: It's going to be so good for people. So I want to talk about, I mean, we could talk all day.
• 52:00
  Alex Alexander: We've already discussed what we could do another episode on but you know, you have been doing connection coaching for a while, and now you are focusing on late diagnosed adults with autism, correct, right? So talk to me a little bit about that and what that coaching looks like, because I think anybody who listens to this episode, like might want that support.
• 52:29
  Lee Hopkins: So the reason why I focused on the late-diagnosed autistic is because I am, I'm one of those who went through the process and I didn't really know how to describe myself as I was trying to help people, trying to tell them I have some kind of solution. And so from a few years I went and I talked about the solution, or the my solution, the way I can help people as these are the steps, lists, processes, exact words to say, and people who live in nuance, do not like that, do not understand that, cannot appreciate that, and I didn't know who could until I discovered the autism, and so that's why I want to talk to those people who are late diagnosed, because they really want this is exactly what you need to do. This exactly what you need to say. This is what you're looking for, and as little nuance as possible, more a framework, there's still room for you to be yourself. Of course, you have to do that, but there's little room for curiosity of what did I mean?
• 53:36
  Lee Hopkins: I'm going to tell you exactly.
• 53:42
  Lee Hopkins: So that's what my coaching is about. And the way it works is we do three pillars, so we start off with understanding ourselves. That's the first key.
• 53:49
  Lee Hopkins: I need to know what I want when I'm looking for in friendships and relationships, it's like I'm looking for something specific, but I don't know what it is we want to clear that up to be able to use clear language to say I'm looking for a friend who plays basketball on the weekends and also has kids as well their father or a mother, so they know what it's like, and I can connect with them on that level.
• 54:14
  Lee Hopkins: So you're looking for something more specific than just anybody.
• 54:17
  Lee Hopkins: So we gotta figure out who that is, what that is. And the second thing is boundaries, creating boundaries, telling people so boundaries are really the shape of you. Boundaries are about talking about what you want, your needs, wants and desires.
• 54:32
  Lee Hopkins: It's not about getting consent from other people. It's about telling people who you are and what you want, and then you let them respond. That's the key, letting them respond. If you have that strong sense of self that we develop, in step one, I know what I'm looking for. If they respond with what you want in a way that doesn't feel good to you, then you're paying attention to that. You may let them go. You may move them to a space that is a little further away from the closeness that you want, but the awareness of that will help you. So that's step two, creating those boundaries.
• 55:02
  Lee Hopkins: And then step three is basically going to places and having these conscious conversations with people, because all of my clients, every single one of them, has gone through this process where they have created boundaries and watch people leave, or they have decided to leave other people, and they would get scared and say, Well, I don't know what else is out there. I won't leave you hanging. I won't leave you like that. I'm going to teach you how to start conversations with other people. I'm going to teach you how to move them from conversations that aren't just little small talk conversations or huge trauma dumping painful conversations is something that's more meaningful so so you can start making a better connection sooner rather than later. So you're not waiting 5, 6, 7, months to say something that's really important to you, and then when you say that thing that's important to you, oh, I'm huge Lego collector, and here's all my Legos, and I spend all my money on it. And they think, Oh, that's weird. You're weirdo. Ah, they run away from you. You.
• 56:06
  Lee Hopkins: Think, well, I just spent eight months trying to connect with this person. It's the worst thing. We want to know it sooner rather than later. So how to put that in the kind of conversations? And, you know, Legos is just a thing. It could be something that's more deeply important to you, that you're afraid to be rejected of, but we need to be able to share it with someone in a way that doesn't make you feel uncomfortable. You have to be able to be be safe, to say it, and allow people to respond the way they're going to respond. You want to do it sooner rather than later, because it's going to leave you you'd rather know rather in eight days rather than eight months.
• 56:40
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, well, I mean, those three pillars align so much. It's always so fascinating to me when I talk to other people doing this work, how much like overlap we all have from what we've come from, you know. And it really does just show me that there are some universal things that anybody can tap into. Spend some time working on, some awareness, some practice and see shifts.
• 57:10
  Lee Hopkins: Yes, absolutely.
• 57:10
  Lee Hopkins: And like I said, you know, I'd heard that love yourself first was one of those things that you had to do, and that is something that has just been out there forever. You get to love yourself first. You have to understand yourself first. But it is true. It's just a little nuance that other people have their discovery of what love yourself first means, and sharing that with other people.
• 57:35
  Lee Hopkins: So you have your own discovery of it, and you help people discover that. And it makes sense, it resonates with them.
• 57:41
  Lee Hopkins: And then I have my way, and then other people have their ways in books. But it's universal to your point.
• 57:46
  Alex Alexander: There is people of all identifiers listen to this podcast. Like, looking at my analytics is pretty comical, because the ages are just wide.
• 57:54
  Alex Alexander: The locations in the world are wide, like we're over the map on gender, like things like that.
• 58:03
  Alex Alexander: And I would just say that there is a good chunk of neurodivergent people who listen to this podcast, honestly, actually, probably the people who message me the most are maybe the people who are neurodivergent. I just love offering these options for support, for a place to go to work through it with someone else, like the work you are doing is so needed, and it's going to make such a big impact in so many people's lives.
• 58:35
  Lee Hopkins: Thank you. I appreciate hearing that from you, and I appreciate someone buying into this vision, or you seeing the vision that I see too, as helping as many people as possible, and I see your vision helping as many people as possible. That's why I'm here.
• 58:49
  Lee Hopkins: That's why we're having this conversation, to spark the interest and spark the thoughts of people. What is connection to you? Are you seeking connection?
• 58:59
  Lee Hopkins: What does it feel like? What does it sound like? What is your experience going to be with it?
• 59:02
  Lee Hopkins: So I'm grateful to be here. I'm grateful for your support. I'm grateful for the space and this platform and to be able to touch your audience as well.
• 59:12
  Alex Alexander: Thanks, Coach Lee, so let's close it out, and I just I have a question, and hopefully it's not too it doesn't hit too far home. I know that you are new in your journey of understanding this piece of yourself. But if somebody was just diagnosed with autism and is having these moments and they've wanted to feel more connection, you know, like that's probably something they've wanted for a while, what would you tell them?
• 59:45
  Lee Hopkins: Ooh, that's such a great question. Immediately I start thinking of, I'd like to reflect and say that the person that I'm speaking with would be somebody who's late-diagnosed, and they were looking, I would say, take some time to spend to understand more about you.
• 1:00:03
  Lee Hopkins: First, what is this connection to you and start having conversations so naturally curious, go around and look and see what other people think connection is. Does that fit?
• 1:00:13
  Lee Hopkins: Does that look good to you?
• 1:00:17
  Lee Hopkins: Would you change? Would you adjust some of those things? I would tell them to start there.
• 1:00:20
  Lee Hopkins: Because, using this analogy, people will say, you know, I want something to eat. I want something to eat. And just scream, I want something to eat.
• 1:00:29
  Lee Hopkins: Food, food, food. And the universe will give you food.
• 1:00:32
  Lee Hopkins: It'll bring you people all over the world. They're going to bring you shrimp, they're going to bring you chocolate, they're going to be pizza. It's food, right? But it's not exactly what you want it. So get an opportunity to figure out what it is that you're looking for.
• 1:00:44
  Lee Hopkins: First, try some different things. Spend some time by yourself. Look for what connection, what joy, feels like to you, and then you can find someone else to share it with.
• 1:00:55
  Lee Hopkins: But step one, get to know yourself.
• 1:00:59
  Alex Alexander: Just take a pause. That's what it sounds like to me. Take a pause. Well, thank you so much Coach Lee for coming on. I'm just. Really excited. We made this happen. So thanks again.
• 1:01:10
  Lee Hopkins: Yeah, me too. Thank you so much. Alex. Was a pleasure.
• 1:01:14
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: What strikes me most about Coach Lee's story is how this period like a moment of self discovery, but then the period that comes with it afterwards, where you're really trying to integrate that in your life, how this actually has become a gateway to genuine connection, like when he stopped trying to fit in to relationships that required him to mask who he was, it opened up spaces for the kinds of connection that actually nourished him, like the museum friend, the friends who understand his business journey, the people who didn't flinch when he mentioned his need for direct communication. And here's what I want you to take in this conversation, whether you're neurodivergent or neurotypical or have some other reason that your brain is unique, because there are other reasons, the principle remains, the same relationships that require you to shrink yourself aren't the ones that will sustain you right the connections worth having are the one where you can take up space and share your interest, like having a massive Lego collection, and then trust that the Right people will not only accept that part of you, but they will celebrate it at bare minimum, they will be curious about it in a genuine way, because they want to learn what you care about. So if you're feeling stuck in surface level relationships, or if you're tired of feeling like you're always performing to be accepted, then maybe it's time to get curious about what authentic connection looks like for you, not anyone else for you. Like what would it be like to stop going along with how everyone else is operating and start showing up as yourself?
• 1:03:04
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: That sounds delightful. Now I have to mention that Coach Lee has a free resource. He has given us all instant access to his free supportive connections course where you will learn exactly what you need to create healthy and supportive relationships that feel aligned help work you through that. And I'm going to link the course in the show notes, along with his website and his social media, so that you can connect with him directly. And if this episode has you in your feels, if you really related to this episode, then I want to leave you with this. I want you to remember that the right people are out there. They do exist, and sometimes it just takes some courage, perhaps in a few ways, to find them, but the right people are out there, and with that, I'll see you next week.
• 1:04:01
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you. But don't let the chat die here. Send me a voice message. I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at alexalex.chat. You can also find me on Instagram. My handle, @itsalexalexander. Or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Now if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend. Tell them you found it interesting. And use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out. No need for a teary goodbye. I'll be back with a new episode next week.