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Adolescence On Netflix- The State of Our Youth · Millennial Mental Health Channel

0:01
Speaker 1: Don't Talk.
0:06
Speaker 2: Welcome to MMHC, your go to mental health podcast.
0:10
Speaker 1: I'm Eddie Cooreo, a licensed professional counselor.
0:13
Speaker 2: And I'm Justin Romano, a Board certified Child and adolescent psychiatrist.
0:17
Speaker 1: We created MMHC to give listeners evidence based information directly
0:21
Speaker 1: from professionals who work in mental health.
0:23
Speaker 2: We're not influencers, we're not trying to sell you anything.
0:26
Speaker 2: We just want to bring love, empathy, and understanding of
0:29
Speaker 2: mental health into this world.
0:30
Speaker 1: And we really think that learning about mental health should
0:33
Speaker 1: be fun, interesting, and most importantly honest.
0:36
Speaker 2: So thanks for tuning in. This is a show by
0:38
Speaker 2: two millennials, but it is intended to be for everyone.
0:41
Speaker 2: We hope you enjoy the show. MMHC is a production
0:46
Speaker 2: of Speaker from iHeartMedia.
0:49
Speaker 1: I HEARTMA.
0:52
Speaker 2: It was my best Netflix intro noise is the same
0:55
Speaker 2: thing I thought you played it.
1:00
Speaker 1: Thank you.
1:00
Speaker 2: I don't quite have the tambor the deepness, but that's
1:04
Speaker 2: a clue as to what we're talking about today.
1:08
Speaker 1: Uh, before we get started, we just have to say,
1:11
Speaker 1: so we're talking about the show adolescens and you could
1:13
Speaker 1: probably tell by whatever title we come up with, it'll
1:16
Speaker 1: it'll reference the fact that it's the show Adolescence from Netflix.
1:20
Speaker 1: If you haven't watched it yet and you plan on
1:22
Speaker 1: watching it, this is your time right now. Quick warning,
1:25
Speaker 1: there will probably be some spoilers. I don't really know.
1:28
Speaker 1: We're just gonna kind of discuss it, a lot of
1:30
Speaker 1: great mental health, toxic masculinity, digital age, technology conversation to
1:37
Speaker 1: be had. Uh, some some spoilers will probably come up.
1:40
Speaker 1: So this is your opportunity. If you haven't watched it,
1:43
Speaker 1: it came out a couple months ago, you plan on
1:45
Speaker 1: watching it, put a pause. You can come back and
1:48
Speaker 1: listen to this episode once you're Once you're done with it.
1:50
Speaker 1: If you don't plan on watching it, or you already
1:52
Speaker 1: watched it, let's just fucking jump into it so real quick.
1:56
Speaker 1: If if if you haven't watched it, you're not planning
1:58
Speaker 1: on watching it. Instence is a show that came out
2:01
Speaker 1: on Netflix a couple months ago. It's been super popular.
2:04
Speaker 1: I've been told about it by at least four or
2:06
Speaker 1: five people. They just said, like, I gotta watch it.
2:08
Speaker 1: Super good. It centers around a thirteen year old. His
2:11
Speaker 1: name is Jamie Miller. He's arrested for the suspected murder
2:15
Speaker 1: and I Guess later convicted murder of his classmate. Her
2:18
Speaker 1: name is Katie Leonard. As the investigation unfolds, the narrative
2:22
Speaker 1: delves deep into Jamie's family dynamics, the criminal justice system
2:26
Speaker 1: in the UK, which was interesting in itself, and then
2:30
Speaker 1: the societal factors that may have influenced his actions. It's wild,
2:34
Speaker 1: I guess, really. The wild piece of it is that
2:36
Speaker 1: every episode is filmed in one shot. So if you
2:40
Speaker 1: watch the show, you know, in the third episode there's
2:43
Speaker 1: a very intense, full episode of Jamie and a psychologist,
2:48
Speaker 1: one shot, no breaks, no pauses. Wild. So just if
2:53
Speaker 1: you didn't, if you watch the whole series and didn't
2:55
Speaker 1: notice it crazy, if you watched it and you notice it,
2:58
Speaker 1: you feel the same way. It was wild. So just
3:01
Speaker 1: to really think about the fact that it was done
3:03
Speaker 1: in one shot is just mind blowing. So that's what
3:06
Speaker 1: we want to talk about today. The reason why we
3:08
Speaker 1: want to talk about is again, it explores a lot
3:10
Speaker 1: of really important themes that Justin and I see in
3:14
Speaker 1: our day to day work, literally every single day, things
3:17
Speaker 1: like online radicalization, toxic masculinity, the challenges of adolescents, and
3:23
Speaker 1: adding in being an adolescent in the digital age, So
3:26
Speaker 1: that's really what we want to talk about. I think
3:28
Speaker 1: as as soon as I got through like one or
3:30
Speaker 1: two episodes, I was like, yeah, I got I gotta
3:32
Speaker 1: pitch this to Justin. We got to talk about this
3:34
Speaker 1: and I recommend it to it. Recommended it to him.
3:37
Speaker 1: He's watched it, he's all in. So we're here, so
3:40
Speaker 1: let's get let's jump into it. There's a lot of
3:42
Speaker 1: family dynamic stuff on it. Justin, you are a father,
3:45
Speaker 1: what are some initial theory or initial thoughts you had
3:48
Speaker 1: on the series being a dad, seeing how Jamie's actions,
3:52
Speaker 1: how his childhood had kind of grown up, all that
3:55
Speaker 1: meshed together to lead us to where we ended up
3:58
Speaker 1: in the show.
3:59
Speaker 2: I thought it'd such a good job of giving us
4:02
Speaker 2: the perspectives of multiple different characters throughout the show. So
4:06
Speaker 2: even though it does center around Jamie Miller and the
4:09
Speaker 2: crime that he committed, you get a deep dive into
4:11
Speaker 2: the detective's life, you get a deep dive into the
4:14
Speaker 2: parents' life, you get a deep dive into that psychologist
4:16
Speaker 2: a part of episode three and it's only four episodes long,
4:18
Speaker 2: so it's actually a pretty short show in terms of
4:21
Speaker 2: like a mini series. But the whole episode on the
4:25
Speaker 2: family and particularly the father. That was the one that
4:28
Speaker 2: emotionally I connected with the most because it just shows
4:34
Speaker 2: the journey, the emotional roller coaster that the father went through,
4:38
Speaker 2: and he goes through so many different stages. Because the
4:41
Speaker 2: first episode is this big raid on the house, police
4:45
Speaker 2: bust in, they break down the door. The dad's trying
4:48
Speaker 2: to protect his family. He's trying to say, like, what
4:50
Speaker 2: are you doing. You know, there's no way, what are
4:53
Speaker 2: you talking about? My boys convicted of murder, That's impossible.
4:56
Speaker 2: Plus he's got a great Liverpoolian accent, which is always
5:00
Speaker 2: a big plus for me. I love a good accent.
5:03
Speaker 2: But you see his disbelief, you see him defending his son,
5:06
Speaker 2: and then yes, absolutely spoiler alert in this episode they
5:09
Speaker 2: actually show some CCTVs, some closed circuit television, which is
5:14
Speaker 2: really common in the UK, just security camera footage of
5:19
Speaker 2: Jamie killing this girl, and you see the shock on
5:23
Speaker 2: the dad's face when he realizes that he was wrong,
5:26
Speaker 2: when he realizes that his child is capable of murder,
5:29
Speaker 2: And that scene in and of itself was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
5:33
Speaker 2: And the fact that in that first whole episode they
5:36
Speaker 2: went from busting down the family house door, to going
5:41
Speaker 2: to the police precinct to talking to the lawyer, and
5:43
Speaker 2: they filmed all of that in one shot. Was truly
5:46
Speaker 2: a cinematic masterpiece. Pretty unbelievable. But I think it was
5:52
Speaker 2: the last episode the dad is sitting in his son's
5:56
Speaker 2: room and the son admits to him that he's going
5:59
Speaker 2: to please guilty, and so he's essentially saying that, hey,
6:02
Speaker 2: he's going to be going to prison for a long time,
6:05
Speaker 2: and the dad coming to terms with that and sitting
6:08
Speaker 2: in his son's room and sitting there crying and saying,
6:12
Speaker 2: I should have done better. I should have I should
6:15
Speaker 2: have been there for you, I should have done something differently,
6:18
Speaker 2: and he apologizes to his son. His son's not there
6:21
Speaker 2: because he's in prison. But just at heart wrenching character
6:26
Speaker 2: arc of that father, I felt was just I just
6:29
Speaker 2: did such a good job of telling what it's like
6:33
Speaker 2: to be a parent when your kid has just a massive,
6:36
Speaker 2: massive screw up in life. Yeah, how about you, man?
6:41
Speaker 1: No, I think you bring up a great point of
6:43
Speaker 1: the it's not just the Jamie Miller story, it's everybody's
6:48
Speaker 1: story to it a little bit. You talk about the
6:52
Speaker 1: lead detective and you even get a little glimpse of
6:54
Speaker 1: his life and him and his son. They had a
6:57
Speaker 1: little kind of back and forth in episode two, you
7:00
Speaker 1: get Jamie's dad, learn about him, you learn a little
7:02
Speaker 1: bit about mom, you learn about the psychologist. In episode three,
7:06
Speaker 1: she was kind of the main piece, and you see
7:08
Speaker 1: her kind of navigating a forty five minute long back
7:12
Speaker 1: and forth with Jamie, only to be put to tears
7:15
Speaker 1: at the end of it when it's done because she
7:17
Speaker 1: went through a pretty intense session. So I, yeah, I
7:20
Speaker 1: thought the the series was awesome. It was so good
7:25
Speaker 1: it brought me in real quick. I think sometimes my
7:28
Speaker 1: attention span is pretty short, so this pulled me in
7:32
Speaker 1: right away. You're not the first dad to tell me
7:35
Speaker 1: that it was pretty tough, especially that last episode. Our
7:38
Speaker 1: mutual friend Ryan told me that that last episode was
7:41
Speaker 1: really hard for him to watch. I had friends at
7:43
Speaker 1: work who told me that last episode was really hard
7:46
Speaker 1: as a parent going through all of that. So I
7:48
Speaker 1: thought it was really well done, and I thought it
7:50
Speaker 1: really brought up some actual, real life things that happened
7:55
Speaker 1: in kids' lives that are like really accurate. You know,
7:58
Speaker 1: it talked about in the second episode that we can
8:00
Speaker 1: actually just jump into the next question. But the second
8:04
Speaker 1: episode talks about social media and how much that has
8:07
Speaker 1: an impact on the kids at the school, And for
8:10
Speaker 1: those who haven't watched it, we could paint the scene
8:12
Speaker 1: a little bit. The lead detective goes from he goes
8:15
Speaker 1: to Jamie's school to really just start to interview people.
8:18
Speaker 1: And I believe there was two specific friends that were
8:21
Speaker 1: with Jamie the night of the murder, So you're just
8:23
Speaker 1: trying to get some answers, get some questions answered from
8:27
Speaker 1: those kids at school. And I think there was a
8:29
Speaker 1: scene where his son actually tells him that, like, Jamie
8:33
Speaker 1: had been bullied online by kids at school, And I
8:37
Speaker 1: think the detective realized that he missed something when his
8:40
Speaker 1: son was telling him this, because he's like, well, Jamie
8:42
Speaker 1: seemed to be a popular kid. He had all these
8:44
Speaker 1: comments and stuff under his Instagram pictures and the kids
8:47
Speaker 1: like like no, dad, Like that's not what that means
8:50
Speaker 1: at all, Like he was being bullied. And I think
8:52
Speaker 1: after that it started to shift on him a little
8:54
Speaker 1: bit of like, oh, shoot, like we miss something. So
8:58
Speaker 1: all that being said, like, what are your thoughts on
9:00
Speaker 1: the portrayal of social media in a teenager's life.
9:04
Speaker 2: I think it did a good job of showing how
9:07
Speaker 2: bullying really has shifted from in person and they're still
9:10
Speaker 2: in person bullying today, but I would say online bullying
9:13
Speaker 2: is so much more prevalent and rampant. I see so
9:16
Speaker 2: much online bullying going on. I see good kids becoming
9:20
Speaker 2: online bullies, like kids who wouldn't do it in real life.
9:24
Speaker 2: Kids who are sweet, good, hardworking, come from good families,
9:28
Speaker 2: but they feel that temptation to be a bully on
9:31
Speaker 2: social media. So I think that's one thing the show
9:34
Speaker 2: did a really good job at portraying, because social media
9:38
Speaker 2: really has become the centerpiece of the social lives of
9:42
Speaker 2: young people these days. Like they get a little bit
9:44
Speaker 2: of in person interaction, but it seems like the vast
9:47
Speaker 2: majority of their interactions with their peers are coming online.
9:51
Speaker 1: And we've talked about this too, like Internet, social media
9:54
Speaker 1: has just shifted so much. The internet just used to be.
9:58
Speaker 1: It used to be like a singular place in someone's house.
10:01
Speaker 1: You come home, there's the family computer in the other
10:04
Speaker 1: room or even in the living room, and just everybody
10:07
Speaker 1: knew that that was the one place you want to
10:09
Speaker 1: check your email fired up. Make sure no one's on
10:12
Speaker 1: the phone and you can check your email. But now
10:16
Speaker 1: the internet goes everywhere. It's so intertwined into everybody's life,
10:20
Speaker 1: into your life, and to my life, into everybody's life,
10:22
Speaker 1: especially these teens, that it's it's everywhere and it's hard
10:27
Speaker 1: to it's hard to escape it. And it's not all
10:30
Speaker 1: the kids' fault. You look at school and how much
10:32
Speaker 1: everything is online. You look at the screens that they
10:34
Speaker 1: got to look at to get their homework. It's just
10:37
Speaker 1: it's everywhere. So I think, you know, when it comes
10:39
Speaker 1: to social media and our kids, our teens, our patients,
10:42
Speaker 1: our clients. I know, for us, we try to give
10:44
Speaker 1: our health class presentations on internet use and internet safety
10:48
Speaker 1: and being smart about it. One of our big ending
10:52
Speaker 1: slides is what goes on the internet stays on the internet,
10:55
Speaker 1: and don't say things online that you'd never say in person.
11:00
Speaker 1: People really do, feeling bolden to think they're anonymous and
11:03
Speaker 1: say whatever they want, and kids feeling get hurt, their
11:05
Speaker 1: self esteem gets shot down. It's really tough. So I think, yeah,
11:09
Speaker 1: social media has been it's tough. I mean, we need
11:13
Speaker 1: the internet, social media connection good, those things are great,
11:18
Speaker 1: But then there's a lot of really bad stuff to
11:20
Speaker 1: it that we just I don't know, we just haven't
11:23
Speaker 1: figured out how to fix it.
11:25
Speaker 2: Is the biggest social connection in young people's lives, and
11:29
Speaker 2: when you take that away, you can literally see the
11:31
Speaker 2: panic in their eyes. Like I've talked to kids who,
11:35
Speaker 2: you know, they get grounded, their phone gets taken away,
11:37
Speaker 2: and they legit become suicidal because they don't have the
11:41
Speaker 2: connection to their entire world anymore. I've seen kids where
11:46
Speaker 2: I talk about setting screen time limits and I can
11:48
Speaker 2: see their I start to get wide and they look scared.
11:52
Speaker 2: It looks scared to give up on that social media
11:55
Speaker 2: because their entire lives have been built around it. Even
11:58
Speaker 2: had a third grade or tell me the day that
12:01
Speaker 2: you know, my parents don't let me have social media
12:03
Speaker 2: and I feel like an outcast. I feel like a
12:05
Speaker 2: loaner in my class because I'm the only one without
12:08
Speaker 2: it in third grade.
12:11
Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so ubiquitous at this point.
12:15
Speaker 1: To go on a little bit of a tengent Actually,
12:17
Speaker 1: Oregon is I don't know if it passed or is
12:20
Speaker 1: going to pass or what it is, but there's there's
12:22
Speaker 1: like a bill in the legislative process. I don't know
12:26
Speaker 1: where where they're trying to have every school in the
12:29
Speaker 1: state have some kind of cell phone banned policy. Good Now, Now,
12:34
Speaker 1: the policy, the way that's being written is general enough
12:39
Speaker 1: to where each school district can pick and choose how
12:42
Speaker 1: they want to enforce it. But for my school district specifically,
12:45
Speaker 1: they just released this a week ago in our last
12:48
Speaker 1: board meeting. The way they're going to handle it is
12:51
Speaker 1: it's going to be a door to door policy. So
12:53
Speaker 1: they've been piloting this with our elementary and middle school
12:56
Speaker 1: where there's no phones at all in the school, doesn't
12:59
Speaker 1: matter if it's passing peer, it doesn't matter if it's lunch,
13:01
Speaker 1: there's nothing you're sure I alady shouldn't have it in class.
13:03
Speaker 1: There's no phones at all. So it's going to pass
13:06
Speaker 1: to our high school next year. So that's that'll be interesting,
13:08
Speaker 1: and it's it's I just don't know what the right
13:11
Speaker 1: answer is. I think we're gonna have to meet somewhere
13:14
Speaker 1: in the middle on some things we've gotten so far
13:18
Speaker 1: so far to one side that like any kind of
13:21
Speaker 1: policy you come up now, come up with now when
13:23
Speaker 1: it comes to like technology and social media, you just
13:26
Speaker 1: don't know what's gonna stick. What's gonna work. It's it's
13:29
Speaker 1: a crazy battle.
13:31
Speaker 2: It's the beginning stages of all these things. We don't
13:34
Speaker 2: We're still just trying to figure out what's going to
13:35
Speaker 2: be helpful, what's not. There's not a ton of scientific data,
13:38
Speaker 2: there's not a ton of studies. It's just people trying
13:41
Speaker 2: to figure this out and put out the fire as
13:43
Speaker 2: fast as they can. There was a study that came
13:46
Speaker 2: out of the UK, or survey that came out of
13:47
Speaker 2: the UK recently, that showed about half of young people
13:51
Speaker 2: feel like their phones have been hurtful for them in
13:53
Speaker 2: their lives and would like to have less phone and
13:58
Speaker 2: social media influence in their life. So I think I've
14:01
Speaker 2: been saying this for a couple of years, but I
14:02
Speaker 2: think finally the tides are starting to turn, and the
14:06
Speaker 2: social acceptedness of cell phones and the and the acceptance
14:11
Speaker 2: of that we've had of the technology running our lives
14:15
Speaker 2: is finally starting to turn. That we're finally starting to
14:18
Speaker 2: say like, hey, this is bad for us. It's getting
14:21
Speaker 2: pretty obvious it's time to do something.
14:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. Kind of along the same lines, I mean, you
14:26
Speaker 1: after you you kind of learn of the I don't
14:29
Speaker 1: want to call it a bombshell. But after you learn
14:31
Speaker 1: and see on the detective space that social media kind
14:35
Speaker 1: of played a part into who Jamie was or what
14:38
Speaker 1: his experiences were. You also hear about like his social life.
14:42
Speaker 1: You get the sense that he has friends, like he
14:44
Speaker 1: was with friends on the night of the of the murder,
14:47
Speaker 1: but you also kind of feel like he's isolated, like
14:50
Speaker 1: he has some alone time and he's alone with his
14:52
Speaker 1: thoughts a lot. You know, with social isolation can come
14:56
Speaker 1: an increase of naturally, it can come an increase of
14:59
Speaker 1: online you and with that, unfortunately, a team can be
15:03
Speaker 1: led to some pretty radical, dangerous things. Andrew Tait you
15:08
Speaker 1: fuck and he was actually name dropping the show. Kids
15:12
Speaker 1: can just get led to pretty dark places on the
15:16
Speaker 1: Internet when they're feeling isolated and they're feeling bullied by
15:19
Speaker 1: other people, maybe even bullied by the opposite gender, the
15:23
Speaker 1: opposite sex, being feeling like they're ostracized. When they feel
15:26
Speaker 1: that way and they consume certain content that it tells
15:30
Speaker 1: them the opposite that like, no, it's not your fault,
15:32
Speaker 1: it's their fault, and it starts to be little other people.
15:35
Speaker 1: You start to consume a lot of that, and the
15:37
Speaker 1: algorithms You've talked about this a lot, justin the algorithms
15:39
Speaker 1: are super powerful. You like a couple of videos that
15:43
Speaker 1: likes that message or portrays that message, you get more
15:46
Speaker 1: of it. You like those videos, you get more of it.
15:48
Speaker 1: And your thoughts and how you're impressed on as a
15:52
Speaker 1: teenager gets quickly changed because of what you're being fed
15:56
Speaker 1: on social media. So all that to be said, I
15:59
Speaker 1: went on a little bit of a ramble, but why
16:02
Speaker 1: do you think why do we think teens get drawn
16:04
Speaker 1: to this kind of content? This like red pilled women
16:09
Speaker 1: are bad, other people are bad. I'm in alpha male.
16:12
Speaker 1: Why do you think teens get drawn to this kind
16:14
Speaker 1: of content?
16:15
Speaker 2: I think the biggest point I could make is that
16:17
Speaker 2: this young generation is probably the loneliest generation in history
16:22
Speaker 2: because they have less in person connections and more online connections,
16:26
Speaker 2: which tend to be more hollow, more superficial, provide less
16:30
Speaker 2: of a sense of community, less of a sense of connection.
16:32
Speaker 2: And when you're lonely, you're vulnerable. You're looking for a pack,
16:36
Speaker 2: you're looking for a group. And if you have someone
16:39
Speaker 2: like Andrew Tate who comes on, hey, he's got money,
16:42
Speaker 2: he's got women, he's got everything, a young man wants.
16:45
Speaker 2: It's intoxicating. You say, I want to be like that guy.
16:49
Speaker 2: I'm going to listen to him because I want what
16:51
Speaker 2: he has, and it's so easy to manipulate people when
16:54
Speaker 2: they're lonely.
16:55
Speaker 1: I just really think about the algorithms and how much
16:59
Speaker 1: you get fed with what you want. The TikTok for
17:03
Speaker 1: you page for me gives me a lot of stupid
17:06
Speaker 1: jokes and funny trends and stuff related to sports, because
17:10
Speaker 1: that's the stuff I want. But for other people, if
17:13
Speaker 1: you're getting a lot of entertain you're into that kind
17:15
Speaker 1: of you know, toxic masculinity, alpha male, the blah blah blah,
17:23
Speaker 1: big pressage. I don't know, you're into that and you
17:26
Speaker 1: get fedted a lot, and then you kind of feel
17:28
Speaker 1: like that's kind of the truth, you know, that's the
17:31
Speaker 1: only truth. And I think, yeah, I think there is
17:34
Speaker 1: a concern with not just kids Jamie's age in the show,
17:37
Speaker 1: but just our young men in general, and seeing how
17:39
Speaker 1: they talk about women or how they talk about other people.
17:43
Speaker 1: I think it really became clear during the most recent
17:47
Speaker 1: election seeing people shit on Kamala and not even say
17:50
Speaker 1: her name right, just shitting on Kamala because she's a woman,
17:54
Speaker 1: and it's like, look at her pedigree, what do you
17:56
Speaker 1: mean she's not capable and doesn't know what she's doing.
17:59
Speaker 1: Just all the the misogynistic, awful things and ideas that
18:03
Speaker 1: they get from social media and the internet, and just
18:07
Speaker 1: I think what's gonna ultimately happen. And I can't remember
18:10
Speaker 1: the term that people have used on social media, but
18:12
Speaker 1: I think what's ultimately gonna happen is we're gonna have
18:15
Speaker 1: a big chunk of young men early teens who basically
18:20
Speaker 1: end up being ostracized. And I want to say, how
18:23
Speaker 1: don't want to describe this a big group of young
18:26
Speaker 1: men and teens, straight young men, heterosexual young men and teens.
18:31
Speaker 1: We're gonna be ostracized by the opposite sex and opposite
18:34
Speaker 1: gender and are going to be lonely and at some
18:37
Speaker 1: point may realize like the error and their ways, but
18:41
Speaker 1: it might take a long time before we get to
18:43
Speaker 1: that point. But yeah, I just this red pill, misogynistic
18:46
Speaker 1: bullshit content. I can kind of say, from like a
18:50
Speaker 1: Jamie's perspective, why something like that would be enticing, But
18:53
Speaker 1: it is disheartening that kids and young men get enjoy
18:57
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff.
19:06
Speaker 2: One thing he brought up in the show a couple
19:08
Speaker 2: of times was the eighty twenty rule, where eighty percent
19:11
Speaker 2: of women are attracted to twenty percent of men. So
19:15
Speaker 2: he literally says, like, if you're an unattractive man, you
19:18
Speaker 2: have to trick a woman into liking you. And the
19:21
Speaker 2: girl that he kills in the show, he tries to
19:23
Speaker 2: connect with her. He tries to approach her in a
19:26
Speaker 2: time of vulnerability after she's been kind of rejected by
19:29
Speaker 2: someone else, and then she still rejects Jamie and that's
19:33
Speaker 2: kind of what causes the rage that leads to the murder.
19:36
Speaker 2: But boy, is that a sad commentary on the way
19:41
Speaker 2: some men view relationships with women, where it's like, oh,
19:45
Speaker 2: if you're not attractive, like you got to trick a
19:47
Speaker 2: woman into loving you. It just trivializes relationships. It trivializes love.
19:53
Speaker 2: Makes a lot of men feel like they're never going
19:55
Speaker 2: to be loved and found attractive for being just who
19:59
Speaker 2: they are. Then he was talking to a young man
20:03
Speaker 2: the other day who said that he was hung up
20:06
Speaker 2: on a girl and really liked her, And I'm like,
20:09
Speaker 2: have you told her? Have you told her how you feel?
20:11
Speaker 2: And he's like, no, that's not very manly, straight up
20:15
Speaker 2: said that, and then I was like, well, it doesn't
20:18
Speaker 2: matter what's manly. How can she know that you like
20:21
Speaker 2: her if you don't tell her. He's like, oh, I
20:24
Speaker 2: usually just tell her I don't like her, to try
20:26
Speaker 2: and make her like me more. So, it was all
20:28
Speaker 2: just like one big masculinity game. And this is a
20:33
Speaker 2: legit thing going on in this young man's life, and
20:36
Speaker 2: this is what he has been taught, this is what
20:38
Speaker 2: he thought was normal in relationships. And I was like,
20:42
Speaker 2: what kind of foundation are you building in that relationship
20:46
Speaker 2: If you're literally building it on lies and trying to
20:49
Speaker 2: trick other people. I'm like, that's not the relationship you want.
20:53
Speaker 1: Man.
20:54
Speaker 2: Trying to teach these young people, why treat women in
20:59
Speaker 2: relationships like they are equals, like they deserve respect, and
21:03
Speaker 2: to build that foundation of the relationship on honesty and trust.
21:07
Speaker 1: To move on a little bit. I think you know
21:10
Speaker 1: one thing I liked about this show, and maybe if
21:12
Speaker 1: we think about did you ever watch at least some
21:14
Speaker 1: of thirteen Reasons Why?
21:16
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I watched like the first three seasons.
21:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of went on too long. But here's
21:22
Speaker 1: what I want to say about thirteen reasons why because
21:24
Speaker 1: it was a book first, right, I think, oh yeah,
21:26
Speaker 1: I figure I like this show as a just a
21:29
Speaker 1: consumer of television or streaming service whatever. I liked it.
21:33
Speaker 1: Once it got to like the fourth season or whatever,
21:35
Speaker 1: it was like, all right, you're throwing too much shit in.
21:37
Speaker 1: They're like, what Manny or whatever his name was, that
21:40
Speaker 1: might be just fucking racist that I call him Manny.
21:41
Speaker 1: I don't remember his name. His like parents got deported,
21:46
Speaker 1: Like there was just so much stuff that got thrown into.
21:48
Speaker 1: But I liked it because I did feel like there's
21:51
Speaker 1: some pretty real things that that kids go through, that
21:55
Speaker 1: teens go through in high school that they're that they
21:57
Speaker 1: portrayed in the show. Yeah, And I bring that up
22:00
Speaker 1: because I think that Adolescence did a better job of
22:04
Speaker 1: it of like not making it a super like sensationalized
22:07
Speaker 1: way of doing it in a way of like, oh yeah,
22:09
Speaker 1: that feels like super realistic. Like there's like or as
22:13
Speaker 1: thirteen reasons why. I was like, oh, ex gives me
22:15
Speaker 1: over the top. This was definitely just felt more realistic.
22:18
Speaker 1: So I bring all that up to say, like with
22:20
Speaker 1: you know, with any show that talks about like teens, schools,
22:23
Speaker 1: mental health, you often hear concerns from parents are like
22:27
Speaker 1: what what could have been done? Like what what things
22:29
Speaker 1: could we do? Like if this is a realistic portrayal,
22:32
Speaker 1: what what should we do? So I guess that's that's
22:35
Speaker 1: the question that I want us to talk about, is like,
22:37
Speaker 1: what are some warning signs that we can give to parents, caregivers, guardians,
22:41
Speaker 1: other adults that work with kids and teens. What are
22:43
Speaker 1: some warning signs that we can give them?
22:46
Speaker 2: Isolating too much? And this is a really, really tough
22:49
Speaker 2: one because almost every single parent that comes into my
22:52
Speaker 2: office says, my kid hangs out in the room for
22:54
Speaker 2: hours every day on their screens and they're isolating. They're
22:58
Speaker 2: not coming out and socializing the family. They're just in there.
23:00
Speaker 2: Sometimes they're yelling at video games, but they're just they're
23:03
Speaker 2: in their room for hours and hours and they don't
23:05
Speaker 2: come out. But too much isolation bad sign. Giving up
23:10
Speaker 2: on a lot of the hobbies and interests that they
23:11
Speaker 2: used to do and just focusing on stuff online is
23:15
Speaker 2: another big red flag. And then even just the language
23:19
Speaker 2: that they use, how do they talk about other people,
23:21
Speaker 2: how they talk about relationships, how they talk about their friends.
23:24
Speaker 2: There can be little red flags and it's I can't
23:27
Speaker 2: really think of any like great, great examples right now.
23:30
Speaker 2: But some things that you're like, well, that's kind of
23:33
Speaker 2: indicates that they're not thinking about things clearly, or maybe
23:37
Speaker 2: there's an outside influence telling them how to think about
23:39
Speaker 2: these things.
23:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, in terms of language, right, yeah, I mean anything
23:44
Speaker 1: that you talked about before, like the guys saying that's
23:46
Speaker 1: not very the kids saying that's not very manly, to
23:49
Speaker 1: tell a girl your feelings, referring to girls and women
23:53
Speaker 1: in a derogatory way. Other things to look out for
23:57
Speaker 1: work can just be I don't know, try to language
24:00
Speaker 1: where they try to put themselves above anybody else, look
24:04
Speaker 1: down on people. I think that could be some things
24:06
Speaker 1: to look out for for the isolation piece. I'll also
24:09
Speaker 1: add there's a big difference from like typical developmental withdrawal
24:15
Speaker 1: of teens from parents, Like that's pretty expected in terms
24:19
Speaker 1: of like pretty typical development for teens that withdraw from
24:23
Speaker 1: parents a little more because they want to be with
24:25
Speaker 1: people their age, their friends, their peers. Really, what to
24:28
Speaker 1: look out for, also to add on is if it's
24:31
Speaker 1: withdraw or isolation not just from parents, but also from friends.
24:35
Speaker 1: If they're not hanging out with their friends anymore, and
24:36
Speaker 1: they're not doing those things they used to do, like
24:37
Speaker 1: you said, with the hobbies and interest. That's that's a
24:40
Speaker 1: sign that the isolation is going in a bad direction.
24:45
Speaker 2: In the show, do you think toxic masculinity had a
24:48
Speaker 2: role in how Jamie dealt or didn't deal with his
24:50
Speaker 2: emotions and struggles?
24:52
Speaker 1: Yes, if I just think of like the fact that
24:57
Speaker 1: he was an Andrew Taatee fan and that he consumed
25:01
Speaker 1: that kind of content. And I think even the dad
25:05
Speaker 1: makes some kind of references later probably the fourth episode
25:08
Speaker 1: where he just like maybe starts to regret the way
25:10
Speaker 1: that he handled things. The dad, yeah he used to
25:13
Speaker 1: handle things, and yeah, has some like guilt and shame.
25:17
Speaker 1: So definitely, I think, And to give the listeners a
25:20
Speaker 1: quick definition of toxic masculinity, it refers to the harmful
25:24
Speaker 1: cultural norms and expectations that pressure men and boys to
25:27
Speaker 1: suppress emotions, appear tough or dominant, and avoid behavior seen
25:31
Speaker 1: as quote feminine. It can lead to emotional repression, aggression,
25:37
Speaker 1: and unhealthy relationships, and it discourages seeking help for mental health.
25:41
Speaker 1: So absolutely all of that, all of the above, you
25:43
Speaker 1: see it that that pretty much explains Jamie to a
25:47
Speaker 1: tea unfortunately, and where he was at in his very
25:50
Speaker 1: young age.
25:51
Speaker 2: What do you think Jamie was really the way he
25:54
Speaker 2: viewed women, the way he viewed relationships, He didn't value
25:57
Speaker 2: those relationships with women. And the fact that he talks
26:00
Speaker 2: about liking that content with Andrew Tait and gravitating towards that. Yeah,
26:05
Speaker 2: they hinted at it. They never really like nailed it
26:08
Speaker 2: on the head with that, but it got referenced a
26:11
Speaker 2: couple of different times throughout the show that that was
26:13
Speaker 2: a big factor in why he lashed out so aggressively
26:19
Speaker 2: and violently towards the girl that he murdered.
26:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes me think of the other guys too,
26:24
Speaker 1: like Ben Shapiro or like Charlie Kirk, who like really
26:29
Speaker 1: just try to like shit on people that they think
26:32
Speaker 1: are less than Yeah, and just like, I don't know
26:35
Speaker 1: if I can put this into words, I think people
26:37
Speaker 1: like that these social media influencers, they make it seem
26:42
Speaker 1: like shitting on or dunking on people is like respected
26:47
Speaker 1: and that like that's the way you get ahead in society,
26:50
Speaker 1: and it's just it's not a long term thing. I
26:53
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say
26:55
Speaker 1: is like these people like it runs out eventually, like
26:59
Speaker 1: Andrew Tat at some point is either going to get
27:01
Speaker 1: murdered for the crazy shit that he does, the sex
27:04
Speaker 1: trafficking he's accused of, or he's gonna end up in prison.
27:07
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk has some wild allegations about trying to spend
27:11
Speaker 1: time with underage people like there. Eventually these people get
27:16
Speaker 1: what's coming to them, and I don't think unfortunately, our
27:19
Speaker 1: young boys and young men are seeing that. They're just
27:21
Speaker 1: seeing like the instant gratification of like ha ha ha,
27:24
Speaker 1: made fun of this person with blue hair, What a loser,
27:27
Speaker 1: you know.
27:28
Speaker 2: And just yeah, And I've seen some Charlie Kirk videos
27:31
Speaker 2: online and it's such a fantasy for his viewers, Like
27:35
Speaker 2: he finds someone who's transgender or non gender specific, and
27:40
Speaker 2: you know, he argues with them and he makes a
27:42
Speaker 2: solid point and makes him look like an idiot. And
27:45
Speaker 2: that's what the viewers want to see too. They're like
27:48
Speaker 2: people that they don't understand and don't understand their lifestyle.
27:51
Speaker 2: They want to tell them that they're right, and they
27:53
Speaker 2: know more about their gender and sexuality than they do.
27:57
Speaker 2: And it's just it's a fantasy that doesn't really happen
28:01
Speaker 2: in real life, and it's intoxicating for young men, especially
28:04
Speaker 2: who want to feel like they're right about the world.
28:07
Speaker 2: But like you said, it's not real. It's not reality.
28:09
Speaker 2: It's not the world that we should be living in.
28:13
Speaker 2: One question I wanted to ask you too, is that
28:14
Speaker 2: one of the big themes of the show Adolescents is
28:17
Speaker 2: that parents just don't always get what's going on in
28:20
Speaker 2: young people's lives. These days, the experience of young people
28:24
Speaker 2: has changed so much in the past couple of decades
28:27
Speaker 2: that older generations just can't know. You know. The detectives
28:31
Speaker 2: were completely misinterpreting the social media posts. They're like, oh,
28:34
Speaker 2: he must be a popular guy, people are commenting on stuff,
28:37
Speaker 2: but he's getting bullied. And the emojis were the things
28:40
Speaker 2: that were the tip off that it was bullying. But
28:43
Speaker 2: the parents just had no idea what those meant. So, like,
28:47
Speaker 2: how funny was it? I mean, how disconnected are we
28:51
Speaker 2: from the younger generations?
28:53
Speaker 1: I again, I think another really realistic example. Yeah, I
28:57
Speaker 1: think there is a huge disconnect. I you know, I
29:00
Speaker 1: talked about this, not the Humble Brag, but on one
29:03
Speaker 1: of the times that our friend Emily Burris had me
29:06
Speaker 1: on the show on Coin to be interviewed. I talked about, like,
29:10
Speaker 1: how can parents try to start to make connections with
29:13
Speaker 1: their kids again, And it really starts with just like
29:16
Speaker 1: normalizing the talking to each other again. I don't think
29:19
Speaker 1: a lot of parents, unfortunately, are doing that right now.
29:22
Speaker 1: And I will say, I get it. Life is stressful
29:26
Speaker 1: as fuck. Things are tough. It's probably hard. You're raising
29:30
Speaker 1: a teenager or two teenagers, it's probably hard. Actually, I
29:34
Speaker 1: just had a parent tell me this the other day.
29:36
Speaker 1: You know, I get home from work at this time.
29:38
Speaker 1: It's just really hard, Like it's I'm exhausted, and I
29:41
Speaker 1: feel bad that I didn't really hey, so it's okay.
29:43
Speaker 1: You know. I had to tell them, like it's okay,
29:44
Speaker 1: it's okay if you didn't notice something going on, like
29:46
Speaker 1: it's it's really tough right now. So I think, yeah,
29:49
Speaker 1: I think unfortunately a lot of parents get disconnected because
29:53
Speaker 1: of the way the world is right now because of smartphones.
29:56
Speaker 1: Parents are not immune to the smartphone craziness epidemic that's
30:01
Speaker 1: going on. They're influenced by it too, So I think
30:04
Speaker 1: they just end up missing out on things because they're
30:06
Speaker 1: just not aware. I think there was so much less
30:09
Speaker 1: influences without the Internet and social media that you kind
30:12
Speaker 1: of had a good idea of what was going on
30:14
Speaker 1: because everyone was getting their knowledge kind of the same way,
30:18
Speaker 1: you know, through TV and the news and some outlets
30:21
Speaker 1: here and there. But now, like the influences feel almost
30:24
Speaker 1: infinite and you just don't know. Kids be saying shit
30:27
Speaker 1: all the time. You're like, what the hell does that mean?
30:30
Speaker 1: There's just yeah, there's just that's my long, long winded
30:36
Speaker 1: way of just saying like, yeah, for sure, there's there's
30:38
Speaker 1: a disconnect. I think the open discussion with families is
30:42
Speaker 1: happening less and less, and then the difference is that
30:46
Speaker 1: the kids are learning about and moving away from their
30:48
Speaker 1: parents are becoming more and more and it's it's hard
30:50
Speaker 1: to reconnect when you feel you're just you're you have
30:54
Speaker 1: an alien in your own house. And that can go
30:55
Speaker 1: either way. It can go the kid away of like
30:57
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk to my parents, they're weird,
30:59
Speaker 1: out of they don't get me, and the kid and
31:01
Speaker 1: the adult being like I don't know how to talk
31:03
Speaker 1: to my kid, they're weird. It's different than what I'm
31:05
Speaker 1: used to don't. I don't get it. Yeah.
31:08
Speaker 2: I work with kids all day, every day, and I
31:10
Speaker 2: hear stuff every day that I'm just like, what what
31:12
Speaker 2: are you saying? What is that slang?
31:14
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
31:16
Speaker 2: And it's funny. Half the time kids are using the
31:17
Speaker 2: slang themselves and they ask them what they mean, They're like,
31:20
Speaker 2: I don't know. People just say it. I'm like, but
31:24
Speaker 2: I think a really good point that we are very
31:27
Speaker 2: disconnected from our kids these days. And the kids that
31:31
Speaker 2: I work with that are like the toughest situations that
31:34
Speaker 2: feel like they just have no connection with their parents.
31:37
Speaker 2: I'll ask them like, hey, what do you do with
31:38
Speaker 2: your parents? What do you do for fun? Yeah, and
31:40
Speaker 2: they've got absolutely nothing in common that they do. Girls
31:44
Speaker 2: most of the time say I don't know, we go
31:45
Speaker 2: shopping every once in a while, and then boys usually
31:48
Speaker 2: just say just nothing. They just do nothing with their parents.
31:51
Speaker 2: So it is I mean, think about how much time
31:54
Speaker 2: parents are on their phones on average, probably three four
31:56
Speaker 2: hours a day for most adults, for kids up to
31:59
Speaker 2: nine hours a day. Where's the time to be together,
32:02
Speaker 2: Where's the time to learn what's going on in people's lives. Yeah,
32:05
Speaker 2: most of the people who are parents these days didn't
32:09
Speaker 2: grow up with Snapchat being what it is now, where
32:12
Speaker 2: kids are sending constant inappropriate messages, nudes, drugs over Snapchat
32:19
Speaker 2: all the time, and they don't understand how easy it
32:23
Speaker 2: is for kids to really get themselves in some bad situations.
32:28
Speaker 1: I can't even think of a good analogy. But it's
32:30
Speaker 1: just like you, you don't even know where to start
32:33
Speaker 1: with it, Like how do you start to explain to
32:35
Speaker 1: someone who has no or minimal general knowledge of something
32:39
Speaker 1: like Snapchat? Like how do you start to explain to
32:41
Speaker 1: them the uses of it? How do you start to
32:46
Speaker 1: You don't it's hard.
32:47
Speaker 2: Let alone people being raised by grandparents like that generational
32:52
Speaker 2: gap is rough. It's so different.
32:56
Speaker 1: And the world kind of feels like I saw now,
33:01
Speaker 1: it's hard to have energy to want to connect with
33:05
Speaker 1: even your own family and kids when the world just
33:07
Speaker 1: feels like oh every.
33:10
Speaker 2: Day, yeah, we get bombarded with negativity from our cell phones,
33:14
Speaker 2: bombarded and it makes the world seem terrible, when honestly,
33:19
Speaker 2: the world is probably a better place than it ever
33:21
Speaker 2: has been. Like maybe recent political stuff aside, but like
33:27
Speaker 2: violence is down, murders are down, child violence is down.
33:32
Speaker 2: This world is a safer place than it has been
33:34
Speaker 2: in centuries, but we are made to believe that this
33:38
Speaker 2: world is a terrible place and we need to be
33:41
Speaker 2: constantly on guard because someone at every turn is going
33:44
Speaker 2: to try and take advantage of you.
33:46
Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about the where we're lacking and where
33:51
Speaker 1: we're struggling, but we've also talked about, like what are
33:55
Speaker 1: some signs to look out for? So we try and
33:56
Speaker 1: keep it at least semi positive and helpful. But I
33:58
Speaker 1: guess to wrap up for today, what do we think
34:02
Speaker 1: our kids and teens need, Like if we need to
34:05
Speaker 1: get some messages out there, like, what do we think
34:07
Speaker 1: what do we think they need?
34:08
Speaker 2: Rapid fire connection, in person connection, good role models, a
34:13
Speaker 2: sense of community, a flip phone less social media, ways
34:18
Speaker 2: to get out anger in a healthy way.
34:21
Speaker 1: Boom connection, in person connection. I'll double down on it. No,
34:30
Speaker 1: I think I think all of that. I think for
34:33
Speaker 1: me personally, I guess professionally in work, I'm interested to
34:36
Speaker 1: see how the cell phone rule is going to work
34:38
Speaker 1: next year, to see does that increase connection? Does it not?
34:41
Speaker 1: Does it? I don't know what is it going to do,
34:43
Speaker 1: So that might be a good kind of lesson to
34:45
Speaker 1: just see what's going on. Actually, oh this is kind
34:50
Speaker 1: of related. Are you familiar with doctor Angela Duckworth But
34:53
Speaker 1: I can't. It might she wrote the book Grit. I
34:57
Speaker 1: believe it was called. I don't remember exactly what it
34:59
Speaker 1: was about, but she's a psychologist and right now she's
35:03
Speaker 1: doing this huge study across educators and people that are
35:09
Speaker 1: staff that work in public schools about cell phone bands
35:12
Speaker 1: and like what ban does your school have in place
35:15
Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff. So they're running some big
35:18
Speaker 1: survey study idea, just to get a sense of what
35:21
Speaker 1: things are like out there. So that'll be interesting to
35:23
Speaker 1: see when it comes out. But yeah, there's I think
35:27
Speaker 1: connection for sure, better hobbies, better ways to spend your time.
35:32
Speaker 1: I love this the idea of sense of community. Now,
35:34
Speaker 1: probably two years ago, three years ago when the Surgeon
35:37
Speaker 1: General came out and said that one of the predictors
35:40
Speaker 1: for how well a team does is they're connected this
35:43
Speaker 1: to school in the school community. So I think that's
35:46
Speaker 1: super important. But I guess i'll go with d all
35:50
Speaker 1: of the above. I agree with you. I think those
35:53
Speaker 1: are all great.
35:54
Speaker 2: So thanks for coming up with this topic. I'm glad
35:58
Speaker 2: we got to talk about it. Brought in a lot
35:59
Speaker 2: of it cool themes that we'd like to talk about
36:01
Speaker 2: on the show, masculinity, cell phones, parenting, what it's like
36:06
Speaker 2: to be a young person in today's world. So yeah,
36:09
Speaker 2: good idea, Eddie.
36:11
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. And if you got through the whole episode
36:14
Speaker 1: and you haven't watched it and you want to watch it,
36:16
Speaker 1: still watch it. It was so good, especially when you
36:20
Speaker 1: realize that it's all one shot.
36:24
Speaker 2: The acting is because if you make one little mistake,
36:27
Speaker 2: you got to refilm the whole all over.
36:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, but anyway, thank you all for listening. We appreciate you.
36:39
Speaker 1: Let's play it out podcast Spotify. We got a new
36:42
Speaker 1: review recently. Shout out to did I tell you this
36:46
Speaker 1: one had justin?
36:47
Speaker 2: No, I don't think you did.
36:48
Speaker 1: Oh my good, this one's for you man. Shout out
36:53
Speaker 1: to Sweary Carrie. Apple Podcasts. It says five stars for
37:00
Speaker 1: the rfk impersonation.
37:02
Speaker 3: Yes, but then it also went on to say, uh,
37:08
Speaker 3: thank you for bringing us fact the base and comedic
37:11
Speaker 3: updates in the mental health world.
37:12
Speaker 1: Keep up the rad work, guys. So hey, I swear
37:15
Speaker 1: to Carrie, We love that. But yeah, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
37:19
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