Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / Why People Don't Ask for Help | Episode 18 (Midweek Q&A)
Transcript
- Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Last week we talked about something a lot of people struggle with. How do you know when it's time to ask for help instead of just trying harder? But that raises another question, because recognizing you need help and actually getting help are two completely different things. Today we're talking about why people avoid help, whether a diagnosis defines who you are, and one thing people struggling with mental health wish everyone else understood. Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill. I'm Kelsey Dunbar. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: And I'm Marc Regala. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: This is our midweek QA where we answer the real questions that come through coaching conversations, recovery work, speaking engagements, and listener feedback. Let's jump into today's first question. Why would someone who's struggling choose not to get help even when they know they need it? Well, I think a lot of people on the outside often look at this and say, if they know they need help, why don't they just get it? But it's rarely that simple. Fear, shame, pride, past experiences, a lot of things get in the way. So Marc, what's the biggest reason you've seen people avoid help even after they know that they need it? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: I think that the number one reason you mentioned pride, you know, I'll call it ego. I mean I learned when I finally accepted help that the disease of addiction is ⁓ ego driven. And you know, I tell people all the time, you gotta check that fucking ego at the door. Because I mean the mindset that you have is okay, well, I figured everything else on my own up until this point. I can figure this out on my own. I know I'm dealing with some anxiety, some depression, overdrinking, maybe some substances or what have you. ⁓ but the one thing that I've learned from this process, and this is applicable to my story as well, is there is no figuring it out on your own. And the people that try to figure it out on their own, they just get lower and lower and lower, closer to rock bottom, and more chaos ensues in their life. It's ⁓ it's it's a disease that's gonna take a team of individuals for you to be able to get out of. You know, whether it's you know, therapist, psychiatrist, maybe some form of treatment, and you certainly need some coaches on the outside, you know, whether that's somebody like us, maybe ⁓ sponsor at AA, whatever it might be. I mean for me it I say it took a small army. It did take a small army. I mean I had four or five people at AA. I had a therapist. I went to treatment. I have some people on the outside that I consider spiritual advisors. I mean it was a group of probably eight to ten people that gave me the guidance that I needed for me to be sitting in this chair today. But it took a long time for me to accept that help and as a result of not accepting that help sooner or asking for that help sooner I guess. ⁓ It created a lot of loss in my life. So I think that's the number one thing, ego driven. I do think the fear of being judged or labeled, you know, he's got a mental health diagnosis, he's an alcoholic, he's a drug addict, whatever it might be. I think that that plays with your head a little bit. And then ⁓ you know, the other thing too is, you know, not wanting to be a burden on their family, whether it be their The parents, whether it be their spouse, whether it be their children, whether they're young or or or or or adults, it doesn't make a difference. You know, I mean, it's it's just one of those situations where, you know, you don't want them to feel that burden of what you're going through on the inside. But, you know, as as I tell people all the time, if you don't accept the help, you know, that we're offering, you're gonna have more chaos ensuing, and that burden is gonna grow. over a period of time. I mean it's no different than any other disease, you know, and I always use the example of diabetes. Somebody doesn't take care of themselves and make the necessary changes if they get diagnosed with diabetes, you're going to be a burden on your family. I mean you might be an amputee, you're probably gonna have some other health issues as well. So you might as well accept to help make changes. Well it's the same thing like with addiction and mental health as well. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, absolutely. So just a a quick follow-up on that one. Have you ever seen somebody wait way too long to ask for help? And then what finally got them to take that step? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Well, that's a loaded question because I've seen a lot of people wait too long for help and unfortunately they're no longer with us. And that's sad. And that's a sad truth. people waiting too long and and and and not really hitting their rock bottom. ⁓ But the other thing too is yeah, I mean there's a lot of people that wait long in the sense that they're still alive, they're still battling, they're trying to do things on their own, and what happens is there's a lot more chaos in Susan or life. I mean, I've talked to individuals and use my story as a perfect example and said, Listen, you don't Do this and do this now, you know, you're gonna lose your relationship with your partner or you're gonna go through a divorce, or you might be in a position like me where your kids aren't talking to you, or you know, you might get a DUI or you you you you might lose your job. and y a lot of times, unfortunately, it takes a significant loss like that for people to kind of throw their arms up in the air. Maybe that's the equivalent to the rock bottom and say, Okay, I surrender. Now I'm ready. I'm willing to g accept the guidance and I need help. But it doesn't have to be that way. And I think that's when we start talking about mental health awareness, people taking honest assessment as far as where they're at right now and make adjustments. Because I don't want people to experience one death, obviously, two, divorce, three, financial stress because of a loss of a job. I mean let's take an honest look right now where you're at and let's make some adjustments so that way you can be thriving, you know, as opposed to going lower and lower down the rabbit hole. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. I I think that's what people miss is that most people don't avoid help because they're weak. They avoid help because they're scared. And those are two very different things. So just food for thought there. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. And and I think that what they're scared of, quite frankly, is change. That's really what it comes down to because as we alluded to ⁓ several podcasts ago, I mean, change is scary in everyday life, you know, whether it's ⁓ change at work or you know, changing the computer systems at work, what whatever it might be. But when you're told you gotta make significant changes to get your mental health in track and to tackle your addictions, whatever the addictions are, ⁓ It's scary and it's daunting and and your brain creates this monster of almost it's impossible to do. And if you try tackling everything at once, it damn near is impossible to do. And that's why we write the book and we try to give that step by step guide of just making small changes, rewarding yourself for those small changes, create a foundation and just start building the recovery lifestyle. And that's the one thing that I emphasize now, it's the one thing that you emphasize as well. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Alright, so we're gonna move on to question number two. Does getting a diagnosis define who you are? So this is a question that I wish more people would ask because some people hear a diagnosis and feel relief. Like, ⁓ I finally have a reason for why I'm feeling this way. Great. That helps you to figure out treatment options, or medication, ⁓ or some of the things that we talk about in our book that help Whether it's breathing exercises, whether it's affirmation, journaling, whatever. But other people hear a diagnosis and feel labeled. So to me, a diagnosis should explain what you're dealing with. It shouldn't define who you are. So when people get a diagnosis, where do you see them struggle the most? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: I think it's the fear of being labeled. That they're gonna be an alcoholic and a drug addict or somebody that struggles with their mental health for the rest of their life. And I think a lot of that has to do with with the public perception, you know, of what an alcoholic looks like or a drug addict looks like, which is very different than the real world. ⁓ I mean, this this shit's non-discriminatory. I mean, we see doesn't make a difference how old you are or what sex you are. ⁓ what what race you are, ⁓ it it ⁓ affects all people, you know, but I think that ⁓ the whole stigma thing that we talked about in May comes into play. I also straw I mean I understand ⁓ concept of radical acceptance, but I do struggle like when you go to an AA meeting and you gotta go around the room and you gotta say, hi, my name is Marc. I'm an alcoholic an addict. Or now I say hi I'm Marc, my name's an alcoholic or addict in recovery. And ⁓ Charlie Sheen, who by the way owns a copy of our book, okay, said at best when he goes to an AA meeting and and he and and it's time for him to introduce himself, he says, Hi, my name is Charlie, I'm human. Because for that very reason, he doesn't want the fact that he's an addict or an alcoholic to be his label for the rest of his life. Yes, he went through some struggles and he went through some trials and he has a disease, but he's a human being. And I loved that when he said that. You know, so I think that's the number one reason is the fear of being labeled. too psychologically and I think it's because of what we equate to what a drug addict or alcoholic is in our mind because we got this preconceived notion as well, even when you're going through it, 'cause I know I had that. And it's ⁓ my God, I'm broken. You know, how the hell did this happen to me? And you think that you're kind of on an island and you're the only one dealing with this. And I thought I was on an island and the only one dealing with this really until I got into recovery. It was only when I started being open, honest, and transparent, like on social media and that is when the tidal wave started and people started approaching me regarding mental health and addiction. I'm like, holy shit, this is everyday stuff. Just pretty much every household or every family in America is affected by this. And that helped me heal. That did help me heal, you know, early on in recovery. And then ⁓ yeah, I mean, ⁓ the as far as the diagnosis becoming an identity, I I think that's a concern, but I mean the thing about it is is I mean, y y you look at cancer survivors, okay? I mean, a cancer survivor, they're a proud cancer survivor. I mean, you got that breast cancer walk in October every year, the women that are breast cancer and males that are breast cancer survivors are doing their walk, they're wearing their pink, all that stuff, right? And ⁓ it's just one part of their story. Okay, it doesn't define them, you know, but they're proud to be a survivor of the disease that's been stricken on them. And I think that ⁓ you know, when you get into recovery and you get to a certain stretch of s recovery, you know, you're you're almost proud that you're in recovery because you know when you go to meetings, you do hear, I'm a proud alcoholic and addict in recovery. You will hear people say that. You know, and I mean, like me. I'm not like that. I always say drug addict and alcoholic in recovery, but I got no shame. I got no guilt. You know I wear my t-shirts. I'm wearing one right now. Okay. You know, strength and sobriety, courage and recovery. Wearing it right now. Got it as a gift for a couple fathers days ago. And the truth be told is when I wear this at a restaurant, at a store, wherever, it never fails. Somebody will walk up to me and shake my hand or give me a fist bump or what have you. So I you know, I i i i it's it's part of the story. I am in recovery, but I'm also a human being. And truthfully, at least from the addiction and alcohol side, we're talking about five to six years of a almost fifty-two year old man's life. It doesn't define me, but I'm proud that I'm in recovery. But it took a while to get there. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, so quick follow-up on that, and you kind of already alluded to it, but if you were, talking to somebody, basically, what is the healthiest way to view a diagnosis? If you were had somebody that was like, ⁓ man, I just got diagnosed with whatever it is, what's what's a good way for them to be thinking about that? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: That they have a sickness. They're not defective. A lot of times the sickness is driven by trauma, or it could be genetic. And if you think about it from a genetic perspective, I mean, that's kind of how heart disease works and diabetes works and cancer works. So, I mean, we're not different. In fact, the American Medical Association puts these diseases in the same classification as diabetes, cancer, and MS. And I will tell you just a little story here. When I was hospitalized the very last time when I was in intensive care and I did not want to go down to the psychiatric unit, ⁓ and I still to this day don't know if my mom was coached by the psychiatrist or not, but the conversation I had before I went into the psychiatric unit with my mom, because I was not a good patient, she used something something the terminology is similar to this, Marc, we know that you're sick. We love you and we just want you to get better. And I guess just hearing a loved one, my mom, say, We know you're sick. We just want you to get healthy and get better. It was like the words that I needed to hear at that time because then I was willing to go down to psychiatric care, accept the treatment, and eventually meet that gentleman that I always talk about. And that that that catapulted me into recovery. But you know, we think we're defective. We think there's something wrong with this. I mean, it truly is a sickness. The American Medical Association puts it in the same category. Are you gonna feel the same way if you got diagnosed, like I said, with diabetes? I mean, yeah, it sucks, but we're gonna figure it out and you're gonna put it in check. Same shit, man. There shouldn't be any shame or guilt. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Well, I mean, and you've Yeah, and you've and you've said this before, so I I'm you've you've spoken on this, so I'm I'm using your own words. so I got this from you. But basically the the idea behind that ⁓ the fact that people think that being an alcoholic or an addict is a choice. ⁓ could choose to stop drinking, you could choose to stop doing drugs. So when your mom said, We know that you're sick, that was ⁓ Acknowledgement that it wasn't just a personal choice to be a fuck up, right? You you didn't have a choice. You were past that point where you had a choice. Now you had a sickness. And if people could start respecting you as a person with an illness rather than somebody who's choosing to screw up their life, that made all the difference in the world to you. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Huge difference. Huge difference. You know, and again, I mean, if you really want to talk about the whole like like when I talk and say somebody's an alcoholic, in the outside world, people might think if I'm talking about a quote unquote bum on the corner, you know, or you know, somebody yes to f it's not a negative term to me. When I refer to somebody as an alcoholic, I'm referring to them to I'm referring to their actual diagnosis. I mean, they have a sickness, they're an alcoholic. Or if somebody struggles with substance use disorder, they really don't call them addicts anymore in the med in the medical in the medical field. Somebody has substance use disorder. Okay, they're not I'm not referring to them in in a in a in a negative connotation. I mean, that is their diagnosis. Okay, they they're they're dealing with some form of addiction. I'm not saying that in a negative way whatsoever. And I don't even view it as a negative for me. You know, I'm an alcoholic and addict in recovery, or somebody's got substance use disorder in recovery. It's just something that I had to deal with, man. I I view it no different than any other disease. You know, but I took my time to educate myself and I mean shit, the American Medical Association put the disease of alcoholism in the same category as cancer back in nineteen friggin' fifty-six. Nineteen fifty-six. I mean, that's 70 years ago. 80 years ago. That's 80 years ago. But yet you still got people viewing it as a negative, you know, it's a bum, whatever it might be, you know. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. another thing is, I talk to Marc all the time, probably twice a day on average, ⁓ and he speaks homeless people all the time. And so just for sake of this podcast and the way that the the stigma of someone who's homeless being a quote unquote bum is the only time I ever hear him use that terminology. He's always referring to those people as as homeless. I know. I know you do, but I just wanted to make that clear for our audience. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: I heard it. Yeah. It's like when somebody refers to somebody as a quote unquote junkie. I hate that terminology. But that's the shit that you hear from people that got it ignorance, and that's what it is, ignorance when it comes to this stuff. And as far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't even be opening up their mouth if they truly don't understand it. It's just my opinion. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Absolutely. So all right, and then that brings us to I'm sorry. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. And and real quick, I I gotta invoke one more thing here, okay? When you and you know this, Kelsey, and I've gotten a habit of doing this, and I can't do it for every single one, okay, depending on what my day consists of. But if I see somebody that is homeless in front of a store, what do I do? I'll actually I I'll actually stop and sometimes talk to them because I wanna find out what the hell happened in their life to put them in that position. And I can honestly tell you this. Everyone that I've talked to has a story that would shock the shit out of you. Leave it at that. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So yeah, ⁓ you as you've said many times, I mean, I I stopped judging people a long time ago, ⁓ I I'm I've never been a better person since I made that decision that a person is their story, and until you know their story, you don't know their person, right? So all right, so we're gonna move on to question three. ⁓ So what the one thing people with mental illness wish everyone else understood? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Hundred percent. One hundred percent. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So this may be my favorite question of the day because sometimes people don't need advice. Sometimes they just want understanding. Just someone to say, I understand. I may not understand completely because I'm not going through what you're going through, but I definitely know what it's like to feel bad or feel overwhelmed or, ⁓ whatever of understanding you can ⁓ make with them from ⁓ using similarities that we talk about as opposed to the differences. And so ⁓ my question to you, Marc, is if you could help people understand one thing about mental health, what would it be? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: silent disease. The silent disease. You you're not gonna be able to see it unless the person opens up to you. You know, or you're a trained professional or you do a lot of work in a recovery community and you can pick up maybe I'm some mannerisms. But There's a lot of people hiding secrets, dealing with dark thoughts, depressed thoughts, past trauma, unbelievable stories of people's past trauma, anxiety, you know, ⁓ panic attacks, things of that nature. You know, and it's it's it's it's a war, but it's a silent war inside the individual's brain. ⁓ that's that's the that's one thing. And the other thing too is there's a lot of people out there that deal with that. And they're doing some form of ⁓ self-medication. I mean, we might have heard the terminology before, functional alcoholic. A lot of them out there, man. Functional alcoholic, functional addict. I would actually consider myself one for a period of time. And then eventually it gets to the point where it gets a little more out of control. You know, you're not functional too long. And then unfortunately, usually when people step in is when it gets out of control, when they should have been addressed when they were functional. and drinking heavily or popping pills regularly, but still getting up, going to work, paying their bills and things like that and addressing it sooner. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, quick point on functioning is, you know, not just functioning alcoholics, but functioning with mental health, where they where they are they're pretending to themselves, they're pretending to everybody in the rest of their life ⁓ that they're gonna go to work, they're gonna punch their clock, they're gonna do the minimum ⁓ in order get through the day, but they are really struggling on the inside and you just don't see it. And sometimes they don't even see it until they get overwhelmed by it. But There's there's a big difference between functioning and thriving, ⁓ even on the mental health side. Yeah. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Huge difference. Huge difference. You know, and like you said, with the alcohol substances, eventually you can't hide it anymore. Okay. Gambling, yeah, eventually you're not going to be able to hide it. Shopping, you can hide it. Hoarding, you can hide it. ⁓ but when you start talking about the mental health with the depression or the anxiety or PTSD from past trauma, it's very easy to hide. And it's like a war on the inside of your head. You know, and you know, people it's a battle just to get up in the morning, but they eventually get up and they go to work and they put on that ⁓ facade, if you will, and then they get home at night and they're in a very dark space. I hear the stories every day. And ⁓ you know, I've also had some people, unfortunately, ⁓ not here today. You know, they ended up taking their own lives and you know, there's one person in particular I'm thinking of. I mean, this is about fifteen, twenty years ago. way before I got educated on stuff and like everybody w it was when I was in the insurance industry and everybody just was walking around the office like they were dumbfounded and shocked because this dude always had a smile on his face, was always joking around, lit up the room, and nobody had any friggin' idea what was going on inside of his head. You know, and then you go to the wake in the funeral and you talk to the fan members and they're like, ⁓ he was battling demons almost his whole life. Was able to put that facade on at work and nobody had any clue. So, I mean, that's that's that's important for people to understand. And then I guess the last thing would be: and you know my favorite quote: you know, if there's if there's a pulse, there's ⁓ recovery is 100% possible for whatever you're dealing with, whether it's straight mental health, straight mental health and addiction. You and I have both seen this, Kelsey, with the work that we do. ⁓ some people I've introduced into your life, you know, that I knew previous to our relationship, kind of flourishing to where it's at right now. But I mean, I've seen many, many miracles ⁓ in the work that that we do. ⁓ people have completely transformed their lives, complete 180, unrecognizable to the old version of themselves. And it's a beautiful thing to see and to watch. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So ⁓ just a quick follow up then. what's something that you wish people would stop saying or stop assuming? We kind of talked about that earlier with like using certain labels and names, but like something like that or or what else? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: I mean, it's the basic things and it's the things that everybody says, quite frankly. You know, just snap out of it. You know, you got it, you're in a funk right now, just snap out of it. No, there's no snapping out of it when you got major depressive disorder and general anxiety disorder and dealing with PTSD. Okay? Just think positive. Yeah, positive affirmations are important, okay? But it's kind of hard to think positive, you know, when you're in the depths of your hell. You know, and then that in itself is not gonna turn it around. I mean, those are those are changes that need to be made along with the positive affirmations in order for you to get out of your potential crisis or get your mental health into like a recovery state and get it to the point where it's thriving. ⁓ everybody has bad days or everybody feels that way. I think that's almost like an ignorant. It's almost like an ignorance statement and ignorance. And when I say ignorance, I don't mean that. I mean that in the sense that there's a lack of knowledge there. People truly don't have a sense of how bad it can be struggling on the mental health side with the pressure and things like that. And then ⁓ you're okay. You you seem fine. Yeah, I seem fine. I'm having dark I'm having I'm having thoughts of ending my life multiple times throughout the course of the day, but I seem fine. And that's Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Like they have X ray vision into your brain, right? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Exactly. You know, you gotta show compassion. You know, and sometimes you think that you're showing compassion by giving those little words of wisdom, but they're really not words of wisdom. It's almost like a stab in the back to the person that's in the war. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, I I use the words cop out. It's like it's it's a way for them to feel better, like, okay, well, I I said something. I I tried to help, you know. It's a cop out. Yeah, it's it's not wanting to get deeper or just listening to a person and maybe not saying anything. Because sometimes saying nothing is better than saying the wrong thing. You know, I mean, I my my fallback is man, that sucks. I'm so sorry you're feeling that way. Is there anything I can do? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: ⁓ Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: You know, that type of thing. Like ask a ask a question that can get an answer that might make them feel less like they're being theatrical or that they're making a big deal out of nothing. ⁓ I mean, that just makes them want to shut down and not want to talk to you after that. Like ever again. They're like, ⁓ well, if if that's the attitude I get from them, why would I want to talk to them? Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: I mean, I would challenge the audience too. I mean, instead of just making those comments, truly educate yourself. I mean, if you have a s adult son or daughter or spouse that is battling depression and let's say heavy alcoholism, guess what? You can go to an Alanon meeting and learn from a family's perspective how to handle that particular relative and and and and how to give them some guidance and give them proper support. You can go to an open AA meeting. ⁓ and and learn about the disease of alcoholism in the traditional 12 steps. You can talk to somebody like myself or Kelsey, ⁓ you know, who both have mental health and addiction in a family in addition to our own personal stories. ⁓ there's family-to-family support groups out there where you can talk to other family members that got individuals that struggle with mental health or some addictive component or both and kind of pick their brain and figure out how they're supporting their loved one. ⁓ get educated. And I promise you this, you're gonna learn a lot about how to talk to your loved one or a close friend or whoever it is that's struggling. And it's gonna be ⁓ it's gonna be ⁓ received in a much healthier way by the individual as opposed to just making those comments that I that are so overused and are so common and honestly it's triggering to the individual that is dealing with what they're dealing with. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, I was speaking to somebody just yesterday who we're gonna have on a future podcast, and they were telling me that when their son was struggling, this woman and her husband went to Al Anon meetings and it really helped them both. So those are definitely out there and I I've heard nothing but great things. the one other thing I wanna touch on too is ⁓ the is a that it's a big it's a big deal to me. When you talked earlier about the word ignorance and you're like, well Not the ignorance that everyone takes offense to, but ignorance just like lack of knowledge. And honestly, there's there's only one definition for the word ignorance, truly, and that is just simply referring to what it is that you don't know. And I don't know why in my lifetime so many people take such offense to that word. I'm ignorant when it comes to mechanics. I have no idea how to fix a car, wouldn't even be able to begin to know how to start doing something like that. So I'm ignorant when it comes to cars. A lot of different ⁓ stuff. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: Go. Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Fixing around the house. I'm just I I've just never learned that way. I didn't have a father figure to learn from. So there's lots of things that I'm ignorant in, but that doesn't make me feel less of myself or of someone else if they don't know something. I just think that it's a word that we should just stop taking offense to because it it's simply your way of saying, I don't really know a lot about that. And that's okay. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: I don't know. It's like it's like what I talk about when I was introduced to prescription pain pills. I had an ignorance then I didn't know that it was an opiate. I didn't know a rewire your brain. I trusted a doctor who didn't do my research. But the reason why I word it that way is because when I've talked to loved ones about this and I use that terminology, I've had people like literally yell at me, I'm not an ignorant person. I say, I'm not I'm not saying you're an ignorant person. I say you have ignorance when it comes to this subject matter. Those are two very different things. And we can't even get past that. And we're not even talking about the topic of the individual that's in their family that's struggling, to how we can give them proper support and guidance. So that's why I'm very careful with the wording of it for the for because of my past experiences. But I agree with what you're saying. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, it's funny. I wanna say the only thing that I think you're really ignorant about is the word ignorance and what's supposed to actually mean. I would just love to see their facial expression if you said that to them. Marc Rogala - Co-Founder S2T: You're certainly not. I don't take offense to that. I would agree with that. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. So anyway, just just to summarize today's episode. So one thing that I've learned in coaching people for decades is this. People can be smiling, they could be working, showing up, helping others, and still be carrying something incredibly heavy. That's why compassion matters. That's why understanding matters. And that's why these conversations matter. So again, today's questions were, why do people avoid help even when they know that they need it? Does a diagnosis define who you are? And what's one thing people struggling with mental health wish others could understand? And really, all three of these questions point to the same thing. People need more understanding. No more judgment, more support. No more shame, and more conversations like these. And if you're struggling right now, you don't have to carry it alone. If you have a question you'd like us to answer in a future midweek Q&A episode, send it our way suffer to tougher at gmail.com would probably be the easiest way. Or if you guys are connected with us on socials and want to send us a DM that way, that's great too. And of course, if today's episode helped you, share it with someone who may need it. And as always, you're not broken. You may just be overloaded, but you don't have to stay stuck. Have a great night.