Latest / Chaos and Creativity / How to Take Criticism as a Creative

Transcript

How to Take Criticism as a Creative · Chaos and Creativity

• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Kimmy.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Lou.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: How you doing?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing great because I just unearthed an amazing photo of us circa, like what was that?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe two thousand.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, two thousand, two thousand one, something like that.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we're gonna my hair was still brown.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Your hair was still brown.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I looked like a cute tiny little like sunburned um eastern block model.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, completely.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we were we shot that we we worked together that day.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: We shot that.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we that day it was I think some of you know our origin story of how we met at a Mac convention, but uh when I was six, fifth, no, I was like young, I was like 15.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I came to LA to work with an agency and do a bunch of test shoots.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I had emailed Loon was like, I'm doing test shoots for my agency.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he was like, Oh, I'll do one with you too, which was like it was great.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, we had a good time.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: We were saying at that point in time it was like not the same as now where like anyone with like a digital camera can take a photo.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, there was there's actually commitment.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: There was it's interesting because I was thinking about this too.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: There was like so much pressure as a model to like have perfect everything because there was touching was so expensive.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So like the it was such a different game back then.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: It was completely, yeah.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it was really cute because I'm like, oh yeah, I didn't even know that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that we had this photo, and Lou had sent it to me at some point in time, and I just realized that he had to have taken that photo also on a film camera because back then we didn't have little tiny digital camera.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Lou, you were doing like the Instagram, oh my god, we're at the at the club, selfie, like on your on your analog camera.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we were at we were at a um uh restaurant in Los Angeles, and if you're an Angelino from you know the early 2000s, you knew about this place called uh Reggae Sushi.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: The name of it was called Sushi House, but it was festooned in Bob Marley, and all he did was play reggae there, and it was some of the best.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you had if you you had to wait outside for like a very long time to get in.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was a tiny, tiny hole-in-the-wall place.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: It was so, so good.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, but uh, we'll have Claire put that up on our Instagram feed.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know it was so it was so fun because you know, I always I do really always think it's so hilarious, like how long we've known each other, and you know, our relationship obviously involved evolved from like acquaintances and sometimes like shooting together to then me working for you, and then probably by the time that like I think probably by the time my frontal lobe finally developed, we were like, okay, now we can be friends, you know.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just do students like around 25, 26.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, I'm no longer an asshole.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you were so much more tolerable when you were like upper 20s there.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was a good time.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's really funny because Claire, who works who produces the show, she is a 22-year-old Gen Z, and we were talking about what time she goes to bed.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Oh, weekdays I go to bed at 8 p.m.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, 22-year-old Kimmy could never, I was like up until 8 a.m.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: and sometimes later, especially if I had to work for Lou.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and Lou was like, I'm gonna call you at nine, and I would get home at like seven from a rave.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would be like, I could go to sleep now, or I could just like stay up two more hours and talk to Lou and then go to sleep.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Which is it initially kind of how that all worked out early.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then eventually, you know, when somebody tells you to buy a plane ticket when you are on zero hours of sleep, and then you forget to like do the final confirmation by now, and then the plane ticket doesn't get bought.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Turns out um that that is not good for a working relationship.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, it's really, really not.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, but um you know what else?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do like an awkward segue now.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, okay, I can't wait.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Go.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's see.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what else is hard for working relationships is getting criticism from friends.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's it's that that is such a crap segue.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can't even believe it.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: But let's let's get let's get to our our topic for the day.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, listen, if if I was a a really good editor, I would figure out how to make that flow.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I actually think the best edit here would just be to suffer.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't know, just let it, you just gotta let that flop on the ground like a fish out of water.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:32
  unknown: Whoops.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so but no, one of the things I wanted to talk about today just because I'm getting a lot more people asking me to look at their work now.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's interesting because I toil over what I want to say.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings, but I don't think I'm doing anybody any um favors by sugarcoating anything either.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the things that I struggle with is when I'm looking at somebody's work and they're young, it is because I'm older, it is hard for me to imagine being in their shoes and where I was at.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really have to go on faith that they want to hear the raw truth about what it is they've given me.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as artists, we seek opinions a lot.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody has an opinion because people who are uh not professional creatives, everybody seems to be attracted to what we do.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's their kind of way in by offering this criticism that may or may not be helpful, but it's their way to sort of try to connect with uh with this sort of process of creativity.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to talk about um maybe a litmus test of how you can tell you're getting good criticism, something you should listen to, and what that looks like and how to filter out the good from the bad, basically.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a big thing for me that I realize is when people give me constructive criticism versus just criticism, you know, and it's it's interesting.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is, and it's like a the I think the older you get, the more you are able to tell the difference between the two.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because constructive criticism is not actually about tearing down your work, it's about being like, oh mil, you know, actually if you this is cool, this doesn't fit somehow, but maybe if you tried this or this, and kind of gives like these um other opportunities for it to grow, versus somebody being like, Yeah, that just doesn't look good.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right, absolutely right.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I think there's just like l language that can happen and filtering that into your opinion of your own art.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: I agree with you, but then there's also times when I've I've shot something, um, or more recently I've written something, and I've had people that I trust say, you know, this is kind of shit.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think during the creative process, you can get emotionally attached to something because it's striking a um it's it's striking a chord within your own sort of sensibility, and you lose the ability to tell whether it's any good or not or whether it's interesting or not.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's harder to find that truth externally because it kind of falls into two camps.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: You find somebody who will tell you the unvornished truth and say, look, this is not good, and you should probably give up on it.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I have uh you're one of those people who does that for me.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh I have a very good friend of mine named Gus in Los Angeles, who's also very good at that.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: She's not much of a reader, she's more of a visual person, so I send photography to her.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: But um the uh the uh ability to put it out there to people that will be straight with you, it's harder and harder as you elevate in your career because everybody doesn't want to hurt your feelings and they also want to be invited to the parties, you know what I mean?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so it's and so people will be like, no, no, this is great.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: This totally hit me.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and then you have to be you're put in this position of like, okay, are they telling me the truth right now or are they just trying to placate me?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what does this look like?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: So have what's what's your experience been?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I think I have um a pretty good system with my music of who I run it by.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm dying to hear this.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have like built the system of people for like if I am feeling low self-esteem and I literally just need somebody telling me that I'm doing a great job and keep going, I have friends that I go to for that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: If I need like someone who is brutally honest with me, um, but also somebody who's brutally honest with me, but maybe like I take their stuff with a grain of salt.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's honest, but it's not maybe always honest because I think it's a lot of music stuff is subjective too, you know, especially when it comes to like the taste and whatever.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have somebody for that.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have like a couple of friends who are technically very good producers and very good musicians who I go to specifically for technical feedback where it's less about like any sort of creative thing and more about like technical stuff.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: I see.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's in that includes also like you know, song length or arranging a song, you know, because it is really easy to to make a song like very well and you and you bring up a good point there because there are things that I've written, especially more when I was writing for National Geographic, where I'm I'm writing around a subject or or delving into a subject that I don't know well, like lasers or something sort of interesting like that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's important to submit the piece to a person who does know about lasers, who does know about you know whatever it is you're talking about.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you can't know everything all the time.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you when you're researching, you glean just enough information to have a good conversation about it.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: But there's so many nuances in every little sort of area of expertise in the world that it really helps to find somebody who can tell you, well, listen, you know, this thing you said about laser couldn't possibly happen, or you're off, or it's blue, or it's red, or something like that.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really, really important to be honest with yourself, to be um to to put it out there to get that sort of judgment on your work so you it can be technically correct, just like you're saying.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what I also think is, especially when you think about something like writing, um, I think this probably way more with writing, or if you if you're writing fiction, but you are including things that are set in the real world.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is where I think it's so helpful to get the ear from people who are like, if you're writing about a mining town, talking to somebody who was experiencing being in a mining town, you know, or working in a mine.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you can always kind of tell when people just um like Wikipedia it versus people who put in these little details where you're like, this feels so this feels like only some somebody who's been in it could have talked about it this way.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have a good friend of mine that you also know who is an entertainment reporter, and she used to go interview celebrities all the time, and she would have discussions off the record with the celebrities, and they were always really happy with her because she did a deep dive on her research, and those celebrities were telling her that oftentimes people go to Wikipedia, and a lot of stuff on Wikipedia is inaccurate.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then in the middle of an interview during you know live taping, they'd say, And so, you know, what about your dog, you know, Gordo?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, Gordo is not a dog, it's a tarantula, and you know, it's just like a tarantula, get it straight.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Get it straight, exactly.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and I think that's that's um where we start getting into separating you know the pros from the amateurs because the people who are willing to do the real research and have the work looked at in a way that is is critical, so can be accurate.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really I think it also just makes your work better.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's an interesting thing too.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about this at the beginning, but I also like really am picky about at what point I actually begin to choose some to choose to share something with people, you know?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's really it's really I immediately when I begin to write a song want to share it because I love dopamine.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love it.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get feedback right away on it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that is actually not the best time for me to get feedback on it because songs for me, sometimes I write a song really fast and the idea it develops really fast.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the actual like, you know, I'm a producer, so producing the song and creating the layers that will actually become the final story usually takes time for me because I have to like sit with it.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I always want to share it right away to all the people that I just mentioned, and it's too early because I also don't want to do I don't want to drain my resources and be like, here's version 10 of that song, you know.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and quite honestly, the people that are looking are gonna glaze over, but I think that's a that's an important sort of like tip right there because it's kind of like when do you set it out?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And like, and are you assuaging your insecurity or are you really ready for the feedback?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is is the piece ready really ready for the feedback?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think being sort of down the road and having a first draft done, and then maybe looking at that for lack of a better phrase, I don't think you guys you don't do drafts in music, but having a first pass done, or how would you phrase that?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Just have first pass done or uh demo one.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Demo one.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then deciding if demo one should be heard by anybody or if you should wait till like demo three or something like that.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: I usually when I unless it's something where I'm like, oh my god, I just wrote the best thing ever, and then I'll share it to like two people that I share everything with.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um other than that, I usually always let it marinate for a little bit.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like I critical.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, time is critical.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Which is something I've something that does not come easy to me because I want everything like now, I want it fast, I want feedback, I want to get the ball rolling.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, the slowing down in my creativity, in my creative process has actually been like a very um eye-opening experience for me because I do actually think it's made my work better.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say I still love dopamine and I still love feedback.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Who doesn't love that good dope?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Who doesn't love some good dope?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly right.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think another thing to remember is like this could be like maybe number two in our list, is when you're seeking feedback and somebody's giving it to you, you have to be non-reactive.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like you you have to find like do not be sleep deprived and undercaffeinated when you talk to the person who's gonna give you feedback about your work because your emotions will take over and you will not be able to harden the phrase disastrous, sort of like you won't be able to hear the forest through the trees.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's just wrong.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's just really bad.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, I know what you mean though.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know what you're saying.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just like because if you're reacting to it, then you're not hearing it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like when you have like you you wouldn't have like an emotional conversation with somebody if you're, you know, or if you're smart, you wouldn't have emotional conversations with somebody when you're like not resourced in yourself to feel grounded and good.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's a great way to put it, yes.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, as somebody who is very often not resourced, I really have to like check in and be like, am I and I that I've learned that in my relationships.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that I yeah, creativity for me and my art is uh a relationship that I try to nourish.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to treat it as if it's like a friendship or a family member.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to give it like the same sort of respect.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, yeah, I'm so with you because I for sure have been like, I need dopamine because I feel awful, but I'm actually not ready for anything but a good reaction.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think the other thing is you have to keep it yeah, but you have to the other thing you have to keep in mind in that same um uh in the same vein is that you're asking for somebody to give you input, you cannot put yourself in a position to be sensitive to that input.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not somebody who is part of our industries or part of the creative industries, and they're just giving you sort of a very raw sort of consumer perspective of it, it's not gonna be a sophisticated take on what you're putting out there.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: They're just gonna give you what they're reacting to.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if they don't get the deep metaphor of you know, humans place in a non-placed environment or something like that, and they're missing that, it's like, well, that's maybe something you should be listening to instead of getting upset about it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think number two on our list is always be well resourced, well-slept, and non-reactionary.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do we have a third thing on our list?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or just what do you think?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I could I could come up with one.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do it on the spot.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Third thing on the list.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's always a gem in everything that everybody says.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: How about that?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you always just you have to listen with kind ears and empathetic ears and get yourself to a position to understand that nobody's in your head.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever it is you're creating, you understand it to the nth degree because you've been living it, you've been sleeping it, and if somebody's not getting it, it's because it's not being projected well.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great one.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I mean, I try to, especially if you're going to these people, you know, if there's some people that you're going to, obviously they're like not here to hurt you.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly, right, exactly right.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: But then let's now let's talk about the people, the unsolicited criticism.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we all know that I don't read reviews of anything that I do because I just it just I just can't.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because then you're just like, I'm gonna be in my head about it for the next one.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I don't want to do that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Or I'm gonna see this person and be like, you're an asshole or something.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's like that quote that says, like, what um what you think of me is none of my business.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly right.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good one.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: So um, but let's let's think about that because I, you know, I did the the second book that I wrote.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there was a very stinging sort of somebody talked about there's a picture of me in the book, and and I was doing some sort of directing seminar or something like that, and there's a surfboard above my head because it was at a studio in Venice and they were talking about how Damocles short should come sword should come down through my head or something like that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, it was this kind of like, wow, that's a lot, you know what I mean?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it and I think it was inappropriate in a lot of ways.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: But as it turned out, as my agent at the time um had somebody do some investigation on where this comment came from, and it was somebody who saw me live doing some sort of presentation, and they just didn't like me.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: They just didn't like me.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so then they got in a position to do a pre-review of this book because they were on Amazon's like pre-review list or whatever that list is, and that's how they took it out.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um let's talk a little bit about how to emotionally handle the anger, you know.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So hit a pillow.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hit a pillow, cry, cry, use a pillow, cry in the pillow, hit the pillow, whatever you gotta do.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the most important thing is to understand that as much as we like to make everybody happy, we never will.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, and I think there's something to be said for escaping that sort of toxic language and heading out on a walk, either urban or or suburban or even in a forest or wherever.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And because I think that physicality of moving and getting past something, um, your body works with your brain to dilute the sting of whatever it is that's been said to you.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's a really great saying.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm just full of great quotes.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're like the quote master today.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is amazing.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, there's somebody out there for everybody.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there's not somebody out there for everybody.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, there's what every person you're gonna resonate with somebody out there, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely right.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's that's what our who our fans are.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right, you're not so somebody out of everyone you're gonna resonate with, but you're not gonna be the somebody that resonates with everyone because there's nobody that resonates with everyone.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fun little play on words.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I really that's something that I really had to get into because I am such a people pleaser that I really want everyone to like me, and I want everyone to think I'm cool and nice and make cool music.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I just realized, like, guess what?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I do so much in my life for everybody else.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna make the music for myself.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if somebody likes it, I'm really gonna love that.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if somebody doesn't like it, too bad.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: They can like something else about me.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Completely right.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely right.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or they don't have to like me at all.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you have to get to you have to get to sort of that place that you you will not make everybody happy.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And for whatever reason, a perception of you by somebody else may be negative, it's not for you to fix.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's exactly it's and that's not where your energy should energy should be going, anyways.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but it's hard.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's something that took me so long to uh so long.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh and to and I'm you know, and I still have days where if I read would read something bad, I probably would take it a little bit to heart because if I, you know, if I'm not resourced, if I don't feel good, it's gonna sting.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the difference is I'm not gonna be like, okay, how can I make the next thing better so that they'll like it?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's becomes that becomes that sort of reactionary.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I fix it right now and get it out right now, then it'll fix the thing that the people didn't like it.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Boy, that is just a you can tie yourself up into a pretzel so fast.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you and I have both done that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think that there's um, you know, and then the other side of that is like when you're on an upswing, like when you've done two, three projects in a row and they all just hit and you got a lot of attention for it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really, really good time to like go find some time by yourself to understand that yes, you've done these great things, but it has not made you a person that flies above other people.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: It just means that you hit the zeitgeist at the right time with your work, with the stuff that you've been doing continually, and now some people are taking notice.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: And just I I learned that from um uh some people who really care about me and so who were saying I was getting a little bit big for my britches because I had a you know, I was having one of those good runs, and it's like, okay, you know, you need to take it down an odd because the fastest way to short circuit uh continuing the good work is to think that you're all that.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're great friends.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it was it was great friends.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really good friends.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Can you list the entire list now?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I kind of remember part of it.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that's why Claire listens to this for us.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we don't remember the whole list that we made in this episode, but Claire ha has listened and she will make the list and put it in the show notes.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Put it in the show notes.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is why we love Claire because Claire's smart than us.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know that it's I remember what we talked about, but I don't know the exact wording of the list.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to our very organized.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is how you know that Lou and I are just speaking from the heart and not from a script.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Either that or we're just chronic ramblers, so who knows?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we literally said before we started the show.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, do we have do we have some sort of structure that we're going with here, or are we just gonna ramble our way through the show?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Lou is like, oh yeah, we're just rambling.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we did it.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we did it, and the truth is in the ramble.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: So exactly.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Kimmy, always a pleasure.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Always a pleasure until next time.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Till next time, I'll be here.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.