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You Need A Co-Parenting Playbook, Here's Why · The Conscious Divorce

• Justin: Welcome to the Conscious Divorce Podcast. I'm Justin Milrad. I'm a divorce coach, financial planner, ⁓ MBA, author, and the founder of Reclaim and Reboot Transformational Coaching. This is a show where treat divorce not as the end of your story, but as a plot twist. And we give you the strategy, the tools, and the honest conversation you need to write a better next chapter. Before we get into it. The standard disclaimer. Nothing you hear on the show is legal, financial, therapeutic, or medical advice. My guests and I are here to educate and give you a way of thinking about this, not to replace the professionals in your corner. Laws vary by state, your situation is your own. For guidance specific to you, please work with a qualified attorney, therapist, or licensed professional. Now, with that out of the way, I want to set up today's episode because I've been kind of looking forward to this one for a long time. Here's a moment that almost every divorced parent knows. You sign the papers, the marriage is legally over, and then morning comes, and your kid is standing in the doorway asking which house their soccer cleats are at, and it hits you. The marriage ended. But the partnership did not. You're still tied to this person through the most important people in both of your lives. That partnership, the one no one signs up for and everyone underestimates, is what today's whole episode is about. And I'm not doing it alone. I wrote a book on this and I didn't write it by myself. So let me bring in my co-author. My guest today is Jill Kaufman. Jill is a licensed therapist, a divorce coach, a mediator, and a co-parenting expert. She's the author of I'm Getting Divorced Now What, which is the foundation of her group coaching program, Thriving Through Divorce. She's the founder of Divorce Network Pro. A vetted network of professionals committed to a low-conflict, family-focused approach to divorce. She taught parenting classes for more than 20 years. She's been featured everywhere from Psychology Today to Authority magazine. And she is a mother of three adults, three adult stepkids, and one very lucky Portuguese water dog. And most importantly for today, Jill is my co-author of our new book, Co-Po Parenting Playbook: Proven Strategies for Navigating Divorce. conflict and raising thriving kids. Jill, welcome to the show. Jill Kaufman: Justin, thank you for that introduction and thank you for having me here. Justin: I I have to ask, what is the name of your dog? Jill Kaufman: ⁓ it's Barney and it's a girl Barney and she's adorable. Justin: So before dig into the book, I want listeners to understand why the two of us wrote this together. Because it's not an accident. You come at this as a licensed therapist, divorce coach, co-parenting expert, and mediator. I come at it as a coach with a finance and strategy background, and frankly, a guy who did his own divorce the hard way first. In addition, 80% ⁓ of clients come to me with co-parenting struggles. So I have a lot of lived experience in this space, and I know you do too. Talk to me about your angle. When a parent walks into your office, Jill, in the middle of a divorce, what is the thing they're usually getting wrong about? Jill Kaufman: The big thing that happens is that people bring all the baggage from the marriage and it's there. I can see it, I can feel it, I hear it. they're talking about their ex soon be ex or their ex like they're still married to them. And that's where get into so much trouble because you can't be emotional when you're trying to co-parent together. You can't think of all the things that you're angry about or all the things they've done in the past anything that's happened in the past. You have to start this day forward. you really want to focus on what's going on today and how you interact with each other for the next how many of our years until, ⁓ until you're alive. but basically it's more parenting that you have to do when they're home before they go to away to college or or move out of your house. Once they move out of your house, it's not as significant. you can handle things differently, but you really have to work together for the and put the children's needs first all the time. And it's very hard to do that when you're emotional. Justin: That tracks and it lines up exactly what with what I see too. And I'll own my own part of it. In my own divorce, I did almost everything wrong from the start. I focused on what was being done to me instead of seeing the opportunity to recalibrate my life. I treated it as a battle to win rather than a system to build. The reason this book exists is the two of us watched hundreds of clients arrive at co-parenting, exhausted, grieving, and ready to fight. And we kept seeing the same thing. The parents who did well were not the ones with the friendliest X's. They were the ones who got strategic. So let me start with the single most important idea in this entire book, because if a listener only takes one thing from this episode, I want it to be this. Co-parenting is a business partnership, is a shared commitment to raising your kids across two homes with consistency, respect, and clear communication. And it's a business partnership with the highest possible stakes because the products you're building together are your children's emotional health. You and your ex are co-CEOs of the most important project of your lives. Personal feelings stay in the background. Your kids need to stay front and center. And every single message, every decision, every interaction runs through one filter. this serving my kids? Jill. When I say treat your ex like a business colleague to a parent who is still raw, still angry and still grieving, what reaction do you get? Because I know it's not always a warm one. Jill Kaufman: ⁓ it's yeah, it's it's impossible. it is impossible ⁓ to treat your ex as a business partner when you're emotional. So the first thing you gotta do is is figure out how to deal with those feelings and process them ⁓ and them not be so raw, every every day when you wake up, not ha not think about them so much. So there's plenty of ways to process your feelings, get a therapist, a coach, journal. support group, exercise. there's plenty of books out there to, get the emotional piece more processed. ⁓ Because what happens, I explain it that it's jar with the top on the top screwed on. ⁓ So if you have those feelings that jar, it's gonna stay there. not gonna come out and it's gonna be with you when you're parenting, Any every day, if you get it out, you talk about it, you journal about it, you process it, it goes away and it's not there. And you can function and you cannot have that be part of your daily life. and it takes time, it takes work, and it takes letting go of a of the past and of what happened in order to be ⁓ the good parent, the good co parent that you really want to be. Justin: And I think it's really important for people to know co-parenting as a business partnership doesn't mean you have to be best friends with your ex. You don't even have to be their friend. If you can get into a friendship with them, that's wonderful. And some people do that, but many don't. it also doesn't mean you have to agree on every decision or pretend the divorce never happened. And it definitely doesn't mean you sacrifice your own boundaries to keep the peace. It means you treat your former spouse as a professional colleague in the most important project of your life. Feelings in the background, kids in the foreground. And here's why this matters so much, and this is the research that anchors the entire book. There's a very robust study of work going back decades that confirmed again and again that shows children's long-term adjustment after divorce is predicted less by the divorce itself and more by the level of conflict between the parents. The American Academy of Pediatrics has said it plainly. Kids do not need two parents who agree on everything. They need two parents who are emotionally stable, reliably present, and committed to keeping adult conflict out of the children's world. Joel, you've been doing this for over twenty years. Has that truth held up in what you've seen with actual families going through divorce and post divorce? Jill Kaufman: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, if a if an intact family has a high conflict and there's fighting, it's going to impact the children. If a family who's divorcing or already divorced, parents get along and like you said, they don't have to be best friends, but there's not tension and conflict, then the kids can be okay. ⁓ And other thing that you want to remember is that you can't control them, right? So that if your The one who's not increasing the conflict, that's all you can do. If they two people can't escalate the conflict if one is not escalating it. So no matter what your ex is doing, whatever your co-parent is doing, if you do your part not to escalate it, that's what you can do. And yes, there may be tension based on one of the two parties, but eventually that'll go away. ⁓ And There's one thing that I can say works that keep trying to reach out to the other person, like do something nice that maybe they don't deserve, because they're high conflict. But do something really kind and nice every once in a while. And at some point, maybe ⁓ something will Maybe they will start being kind back. Maybe they will, but you don't do it expecting that. ⁓ You do it because it's the right thing to do. and at some point some parents do. They let things go. If yours doesn't, then you just keep trying. but as long as you're doing your part, that's all you can do. And it will positively impact the relationship. Justin: I love that advice and I've seen it work out time and time again. And I think what's really neat about it ⁓ is doesn't always take a lot of effort. Sometimes it's a text message ⁓ wishing your happy Mother's Day, happy birthday, happy Father's Day. hope you and family are well. How's your mom or dad doing? ⁓ And what's really powerful about and I notice this in my own ⁓ divorce and co-parenting, kids are watching, they notice. ⁓ And the amazing part about the research that I mentioned before, and the most hopeful part, and I don't want anyone to miss this, is children whose parents manage conflict well, who communicate with respect and prioritize stability, show outcomes that are virtually indistinguishable from kids in intact families. So basically what we're saying here is that If you treat the other co-parent well and you don't create the chaos, it's as if you were never divorced and you're in an intact family. So the divorce isn't the wound. The conflict is the wound. And the conflict is the part that you actually have some control over. The entire promise of this book is not perfection. It's not necessarily friendship with your ex. It's a clear, strategic, research-backed way to protect your kids and free yourself to build the life you actually want. Mm. Jill Kaufman: Absolutely. And I think there's so much good information in our book that people, you may not read it ⁓ all in one sitting, but you can refer to it over time when things are going different ways and you need different solutions. There's a lot of information there. There's a lot of opportunity to journal ⁓ and to your feelings out and to have creative solutions. and examples of ways that you can communicate. I love the way it can be a resource for people over time. Justin: No doubt. And you know, Jill and I talked about we want to use evidence-based research so that what we're saying, there's actually truth, that it makes a difference. So ⁓ I to slow this down a little bit ⁓ and some more of the research because this is one of the most heavily studied questions in all of developmental psychology. And the evidence is remarkably consistent. So let me lay out the two roads in front of every divorcing parent. And what research says that actually happens on each road. Start with a foundational finding because it reframes everything. Back in 1991, a researcher named Paul Lamato did a meta-analysis, which means he pulled the results across 92 separate studies, and he found something that surprised a lot of people. The gap between kids of divorce and kids in intact families was real, but on average, fairly small. He updated it again in 2001 with another 67 studies, and the picture held. And when he asked which theory best explained that gap, the answer was not the divorce itself, and it wasn't even the drop in income. The single most consistent explanation was family conflict. Here's the line from that work that I think every co-parent needs to hear. The research suggests that children in high conflict intact families, the homes that stay together but stay at war, Can actually do worse than children in low conflict divorced families. Hear that again. A peaceful divorce can be better for a child than a hostile marriage. The structure is not a determining factor, the conflict is. Joe, when you explain that to a parent who is white knuckling through guilt about the divorce itself, what usually happens? Jill Kaufman: Well, so I do marriage counseling also, and a lot of people stay in the marriage because of the children. And, research has that that is not necessarily the best thing for the children. And so when people do feel guilty that they have left, their children, they're now from a divorced family, ⁓ they really have to understand that they're actually doing something brave and really strong and you're giving A really good role model to your children because you're showing them that no matter how tough something is, you're going to do it if it's the best thing for the children. and I always give this example with my parents. My parents were married over 50 years until my dad passed away. And it was terrible marriage. ⁓ And ⁓ I up into a marriage that wasn't good for me too quickly. And got a divorce. And I have so many friends who are from divorce families who chose wisely. And my kids are now, two of my kids have partners and they are with them for over seven years ⁓ before they're getting they're taking their time because they know they learned you don't rush into something like this. You want something that is healthy strong and good. And ⁓ those are just micro examples ⁓ of the that Being in a marriage when it's when it's toxic or not healthy is not good for children. And getting out and have two healthier environments is so good for children. So that's typically what I share with my clients. Justin: I love that. Now let's walk down each path that we discussed before with actual research based evidence. one is a cooperative road, and the research on this is genuinely encouraging. There's a 2010 meta-analysis by Tubert and Pinkwart that found positive co parenting, meaning agreement and cooperation between parents, was associated with fewer internalizing problems in kids, things like anxiety and depression, and fewer externalizing problems. Things like aggression and acting out. Other work, going back to Kamara and Resnick, found that when parents cooperate in their parenting roles, it predicts higher social and emotional functioning in the kids, including higher self-esteem and better relationships with their peers. And there's a mechanism underneath it all that I find fascinating. When co-parents cooperate, each parent tends to actually parent better. The cooperation lowers each parent's stress. And a less stressed parent is a warmer, more present, and more consistent parent. So the benefit compounds. Your kid doesn't just get less conflict, your kid gets two better parents. So Jill, does that match what you see? ⁓ Jill Kaufman: So true. Absolutely. I mean, it's I can't tell you the feeling when you have a lower relationship with your co-parent. You don't get stressed when you see them at the basketball court watching your kid. You don't have to worry about where you're gonna sit or, if you're gonna talk someone. It's so much better for you, when you're in these situations. And like you said, the kids feel everything, they see everything. If you can't sit next to each other a sporting event, think about how that feels to a kid. It is just not okay. I feel like people have to realize this. you have to get over all these things. ⁓ And like I if your co-parent isn't willing to do this, you only have so much control. But if you can work this out, so you ⁓ can get along good enough for the children, it makes such a big difference for for everybody. Justin: Amen. Now let's talk about road two, the war. And I'm not going to soften this because the stakes are too high. There is major evidence reviewed and published in the twenty eighteen in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry by Gordon, Herald, and Ruth Sellers that pulled together decades of cross-sectional, longitudinal, and experimental research. And the finding is sobering but not surprising. Children who are repeatedly exposed to conflict between their parents. That is frequent, intense, and poorly resolved are at an elevated risk for a whole range of outcomes. Increased anxiety, depression, aggression, antisocial behavior, poor academic performance, substance misuse, and in the most extreme cases, even self-harm and suicidality. That is not one shaky study. That is the weight of the field. And there's a specific mechanism that matters enormously for co-parents, because it's one you can control directly. It's called triangulation, or in plain English, that feeling of being caught in the middle. There is a meta-analysis on exactly this for children who feel caught between their parents, put in the middle, forced to prove their loyalty to each side. When parents share inappropriate information, when they undermine each other, when they quiz the kids about the other house, or use the kids as messenger, the children feel caught. And feeling caught is directly associated with anxiety, depression, lower self-esteem. and worse mental health. Jill, this triangulation piece is at the heart of it for me, and you also made sure that we had that in our book because almost every parent does some version of it without realizing how it harms the kids. Can you talk about how it usually shows up and sometimes how subtle it can be? Jill Kaufman: ⁓ yeah. you have be really careful when your kid comes home and you ⁓ ask, how your week or how was your weekend? what'd you do? ⁓ you may not mean anything by that, but you may a child who's being told, don't share this with mom or don't tell dad, what we did. and so you wanna be really careful about the questions that you ask and the things that you say. And even the things that you say when you're not talking to your child, when you're on the phone with somebody, ⁓ you ⁓ are talking somebody else in the room, ⁓ children hear ⁓ And so you just have to be very, very careful that you're not letting your child be exposed. To anything that creates stress and tension. And you also want to be able to talk to your children about these things so that you can find out how they're feeling. So you want to ask them questions like, did that ⁓ question make you uncomfortable? And if they say, Well, kind of, and then you can say, ⁓ I'm really sorry. I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable. I won't ask you about that anymore. So they can come to you and they can tell you. set boundaries with you about what's okay and what's not okay. some parents I get were like, well, I should be able to ask my kid what happened over the weekend. ⁓ And yes, you But if your situation is one where your child is being put in the middle by the other parent or being told not to share this with you, that is going to make them more anxious and it's going to affect their mental health. So you have to put that above what you're entitled to ask. it's being the bigger person ⁓ over and over and again, ⁓ which is a lot ask, but it's for your children. Justin: I it's also, I think, really thinking about and preparing for the long game. we we've been talking about the war and what it does to your kids, but I also want to talk about what it does to you. Because choosing the war isn't a free choice that only impacts your kids. You pay for it too, dearly in your body, ⁓ in your life, often financially. The physiology here is real. Chronic interpersonal conflict and chronic stress dysregulate your stress hormone system. Researchers measure this through cortisol, your primary stress hormone, which is supposed to follow a healthy daily rhythm. Chronic stress flattens and distorts that rhythm, and a dysregulated cortisol pattern is associated with elevated risk for serious health problems and an even higher mortality risk over time. There's research showing that when couples interact with hostility, the stress shows up measurably in their cortisol, hours after the actual fight fight ends. So when you stay locked in conflict with your co-parent for years, your body is marinating in stress chemistry the whole time. And that's not a metaphor, that's your system. And I once heard a stat, I don't really know the truth behind it because I didn't see the ⁓ source, but it said that ⁓ fighting co-parents who stay at war reduces lifespan by five years. Whether that's true or not, just logically when you think about it, it does so much to your system. Joe, you've worked with people who are living inside this for years at a time. What do you see, most often? What does it cost them, above and beyond the legal bills? Jill Kaufman: ⁓ it depends because ⁓ if are able to detach from it, it doesn't cost them as much. if they get caught up in it get angry and ⁓ let it bother them every day, it cost them, like you said, their physical health, their mental health, it can create anxiety, depression, all these kinds of things. But there are ways not to get caught up on it, ⁓ if you have a high conflict ⁓ ex spouse. it's much easier said than done, but your ability to get support and to really take care of yourself and to manage someone who is high conflict can really make the difference there. So there's a big cost ⁓ if you don't manage it well. Justin: there is a big cost of the grip of resentment. And the research consistently finds that forgiveness has profound consequences for that person doing the forgiving. And just to be clear, you don't have to give an actual forgiving message, but you can kind of be at peace with it. And it creates better psychological health, better physical health, greater life satisfaction, lower distress. And you're not necessarily letting them off the hook, you're just taking yourself off the hook, Jill Kaufman: to forgive, you can let go without forgiving. So it's more about the letting go in my mind than the forgiveness. Justin: I couldn't agree more. you're essentially taking yourself off the hook. ⁓ So it's up to you ⁓ to move on. And it the sooner you can move on, the more you disengage from conflict. And not just a good co-parenting strategy, it's the precondition for your own reinvention. Can you talk to the person who hears let go and thinks it means losing or giving up or letting the other person win? How do they reconcile? Jill Kaufman: Well, I have a quote from Buddha and it says, Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. And that's exactly what I want you to think about when you think about letting go. You're not doing this for them. You are doing this for you and your children. you're doing this because holding on to resentment and anger is bad for your emotional ⁓ for your physical health. And what do you want to be spending your time? we have a very short time on this planet and we want to enjoy our lives, we want to be happy, we want to have happy kids, ⁓ and we want focus on the all the good. And you can't focus on all the good when you're focused on what's happened and how it's not fair this isn't right, and they're still doing it. And they get away with everything. And if you keep focusing on that, you don't get to say, look what I'm doing. Look what we're doing, us me and our kids. Let's have a good life and let's enjoy. Kids are good at being in the moment and enjoying life, especially small kids. ⁓ And if we can take a page from their and try to be in the moment as much as possible, we won't spend as much time with the anger and resentment. Justin: Amen again. in the we have lots of different communication tools, and we talk about how important to regulate before you communicate because your nervous system is in fight or flight. Can you explain to the audience why that order matters so much, why you have to regulate before you communicate? Jill Kaufman: Yeah. ⁓ my gosh, because we're all wired, ⁓ with this or flight response, right? When we sense danger, we're gonna be reactive. ⁓ And a of times our co-parent is going to say or do something that feels dangerous, that feels threatening, that challenges you as a parent. And when they say something or do something. We're gonna wanna be reactive. ⁓ it's not that we wanna be, it's that our brains are set up that way to protect ourselves. but the thing is when you're a co-parent, you're not in danger anymore. they can't hurt you the same way that they hurt you when you were married and living in the same house. So you have all this safety, but it doesn't feel that way when they say or do something or send that mean text. And so you really have to take those moments to pause to get your brain and your body back to ⁓ ⁓ and that's either deep breathing or listening to music or having a drink of water or whatever it is to calm yourself down, meditate, and then your brain's gonna function normally and you won't fight or flight or flee. you'll be able to think rationally. and respond in an appropriate way. Justin: Thank you. Very very helpful to understand that. So now that the parents regulated, now and only now do the communication frameworks work. let's give people the actual toolkit because this is the stuff they can use tonight and right away. The first one and the one I reach for most is BIFF. It stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. The goal of a BIFF message is not to win the argument or to prove a point. It's to exchange the information you need to while giving conflict Nowhere to grab onto. Brief, because the longer the message, the more surface area there is to blow up. Informative, meaning facts only, no opinions about your ex, no history, no emotional commentary. Friendly, which is not warmth, it's just a neutral tone that lowers the other person's. It can it can be. ⁓ it doesn't have to, but it's it's a tone that lowers the other person's defenses ⁓ and ⁓ Jill Kaufman: It can be more warmth. But you don't have to. Yes. Justin: Meaning you state your position once clearly and you let it stand. So let me give an example right from the book. Your co-parent sends you this. You're always late picking up the kids. It's disruptive and it shows you don't care about their schedule. You need to do better. Now the instinctive response is something like, That's not true. I've only been late twice, and both times you change things last minute. You're always trying to control everything and make me look bad. And the biff response is I will pick up the kids at five PM today as schedule. If anything changes, I'll let you know in advance. Thanks. That's it. Brief, informative, friendly, and firm. No bait taken. Joe, can you kind of talk about what happens psychologically to the other person when you stop taking the bait? And also I think, at first they're probably surprised by this message ⁓ and want to fight back, but eventually they kind of get it. Can you talk a little bit about how the de-escalation ⁓ happens? Jill Kaufman: Absolutely. So if you have a high conflict person, if they're narcissistic, if they are, some kind of mental health, personality disorder, they love to get into the fight with you because getting into a fight with you makes them feel more powerful, makes them feel like they have control over you. So they're looking for any opportunity to respond with something that is So if you escalate the situation and you feel like you're defending, even a defense of yourself is an escalation. they will take that bait and they will go ⁓ off. then you're escalating and you're out of control and it's not good for, you and your children. so you really want to think about this strategically and not emotionally. ⁓ And VIF method, which is Bill Eddy who I love and ⁓ think is a genius. he created this for high conflict people. It doesn't necessarily have to be a narcissist, it just can be someone who's difficult to ⁓ interact with. And so you really have to take the emotion out of it ⁓ and that you don't have to defend yourself anymore. what they think is what they think. And this gives you a great structure to do that. Justin: There can always be more than one version of the truth and they're what they think really does you shouldn't care, about what you think because you give yourself ⁓ self worth. ⁓ Jill, can you talk about the gray rock and the yellow rock method? Jill Kaufman: Absolutely. So the gray rock method is where you're really not responding and you are not taking the bait, but you just kind of ignore them. You're like a rock, you're just sitting there and you don't respond. it sometimes does escalate somebody who is looking for your attention and you are not responding. So that's why they created the yellow rock method, ⁓ and that's where it's more like where you are responding but you're doing it in a respectful way and you're responding but in a minimal way So, there there are similarities. You just have to decide what's better in your situation. And you'll know because if it escalates when you do the gray rock, then you gotta try the yellow rock. Justin: All these different color rocks. All right, let's shift from communication to structure because the next big pillar in the book is consistency. We open that chapter with a line that I really believe in. Children aren't built for chaos, they're built for rhythm. While everything else in their world is in motion, the consistency between two homes is what helps them feel safe and grounded. But here's the nuance. And Jill, I want your take on this. You don't have to agree on everything. Jill Kaufman: Yeah. Justin: ⁓ you have to align the things that actually matter for your kids' stability. So in the book, we draw a line between what stays the same across both homes and what is allowed to differ. The things that stay the same are bedtime within maybe a 30-minute window, homework and school routines, core disciplines, values, the communication channel between co-parents, medical protocols, screen safety. The things that are allowed to differ are weekend activities, meals, room decor. Court chore structures, allowance amounts, and extended family time. why does this distinction matter so much? Because I think a lot of co-parents either try to control everything in the other house or they give up and align on nothing. And by the way, before you answer that, one thing that I have to say to so many of my clients, and takes a minute for them to realize it, and then they're like, ⁓ yeah, I can't, is ⁓ you can't control happening in the other house. You can only control what's happening in your Love to hear your thoughts. Jill Kaufman: Yeah, I was gonna say that. So, like if you have a co-parent who will work with you and put rules together that are s the same in both houses, that's great. And those what you listed out are definitely the lists that you want to focus on because you can't have everything the same. I mean, that's not realistic. ⁓ but the between the two lists that you just talked about are the things that are important in their structure, in their routine. Kids like routine and so their bedtime is important, the rules around maybe screens could be another one that you do together. but it's not necessary. kids do understand that there are different rules in different houses. and, they will know that, ⁓ I do this at mom's house and I do that at dad's house. And ⁓ they can get used to that. So, if you can have a really friendly conversation about rules, ⁓ and I encourage people to sit down with their kids. And so if you can do that together with your children and come up with like basic rules and have them posted on both houses, ⁓ that's a an amazing set up. kids being involved in making the rules, and you can say yes or no. You don't have to listen to your kids on everything, ⁓ but gives them a sense of control when they are involved in making the rules. So ⁓ it be a really nice thing to do to sit down with the kids, the two of you, ⁓ and up with a list of rules. And then, if you can't, then you can do it at your own house. They can the other parent can do it at their house. ⁓ And you you have list of rules up so that kids are very clear. And on they understand the rules, that's really helpful too. Justin: You know, and and can you also talk about situations where one house has absolutely no rules and the other house has rules, how that kind of impacts the kids and why, we shouldn't be in those situations. Jill Kaufman: you shouldn't be, but a lot of people are because they're are very different types of parents. you have to ⁓ realize that people are only capable of doing what they're capable of. So there may be somebody who has ADD who's a parent who just can't do rules. they have to do everything different every day. ⁓ And I'm not excusing them. I'm saying accept the reality, the radical acceptance that you had talked about, we talk about in the book. ⁓ And Some people are just not good at getting the kids to bed every night at the same time following through on and you have to ⁓ understand that the that the kids are with you, the kids are learning. And that's good enough. Whatever happens at the other house is okay. It's not negating what you're teaching the kids. ⁓ So if you control what's going on in the other house and it's really, chaos over there. ⁓ your having a stable house with rules and respect and good teaching for your children is going to make a huge impact on your children and just focus on that. Justin: Now we have to talk about the situations where the other side will not play fair, because pretending those don't exist would make this whole book naive. So let's go there. First, the book is careful about a distinction that I think gets blurred constantly. Not all difficult co-parenting is toxic, and not all conflict means something is wrong. The key word is pattern. Anyone can have a bad moment. What defines toxic behavior as a consistent pattern over time? Communication designed to provoke or blame. Agreements ignored without accountability. The kids being pulled into an adult conflict. Attempts to control or undermine your role as a parent. And the gaslighting piece, rewriting events and denying reality in ways that leave you questioning your own judgment. Jill, you put a really useful self-check in the book. Three questions. Is this occasional or is it consistent? Is this frustrating or is it destabilizing? does this affect just me or is it impacting my child? Can you walk people through why those three questions are the right filter? Jill Kaufman: Yeah, you have to choose your battles, right? You have to make sure that it's something that's impacting your child, not just you. You have to make sure that it is destabilizing, right? because there's lots of things that co parents do that are annoying that will annoy a parent and it really doesn't have a significant impact. ⁓ And a lot of times I see parents get, and I was like this too, they get very emotional because they know ⁓ this what I would do if I had the soul decision making. but in the end, is it really that important that you're going to go back to court or you're going to make a big problem for your co-parent? and so those three questions are a good way to kind of check in with yourself, it's really hard not to be emotional when you make these decisions. Like my child really wants to do gymnastics their other parent is really worried about them getting hurt ⁓ or doesn't like isn't able to the times that, they need to get your child there. Whatever it is, it seems really important at the time. But I know from having three adult children that in the scheme of things, it's each thing is not as important as we think it is. So you really have to manage that decision making. Justin: Right. And it kind of goes back to systems, which is, a system that works for your particular situation. I want to name something directly because the book does it and it really matters. Some of these dynamics go beyond difficult personalities. When you see financial withholding, endless litigation, threats to take the kids, or systematic campaigns to undermine your credibility as a parent, that's not just conflict. Those are recognized forms of coercive control and post-separation abuse. A lot of people don't recognize that it's abuse because there's no physical harm involved. But financial control, legal harassment, and psychological manipulation are recognized by domestic violence organizations and family courts. For the high conflict but not so dangerous situations, the book's answer is parallel parenting. Jill, can you explain the shift from co-parenting to parallel parenting? Because it's a real issue and sometimes co parenting just doesn't work and you have to move to parallel. Jill Kaufman: Absolutely. So co parenting is you're working with your other parent, you're discussing things, you're agreeing on things, and you're working together for the good of your children. ⁓ you don't have a partner, a co parent that will do that, you have no choice. You have to parallel parent. And so parallel parenting means that you're doing whatever you're doing in your home with your children and they're doing what they're doing. ⁓ And you don't, get to talk about things. It's really a loss for people because they thought in their head that they would be able to co-parent together. And if you aren't able to do that, it can be really difficult to accept that. but parallel parenting works and parallel parenting is okay ⁓ and kids can be fine you parallel parent. So it's really not something that you have control over, but you have to let go of that. ⁓ hope that you could do that. Justin: I think the key ⁓ is you and ⁓ until you realize not possible. And it's not possible in all situations. ⁓ the way I it, it's co-parenting is collaboration and parallel parenting is structured disengagement. Written channels only, focused only on the child. Each parent runs their own household without interference or justification from the other parent. Transitions happen at neutral spots at school or through a trusted third party. And the goal is not a relationship with your co-parent. The goal is protecting your kids from the ongoing conflict. We also point people to these tools, apps like Our Family Wizard, Talking Parents and Best Interest, that create court admissible time-stamped records. Our Family Wizard even has a tone meter that flags aggressive language before you hit send. And we recommend communication batching, where instead of reacting to every message as it lands, you pick two windows a day to review and respond. It removes the impulse to fire back and it signals that you control your time, not them. But here's where I want to do something most co-parenting conversations refuse to do. We have to hold up the mirror to ourselves, because there is a whole chapter in the book called Am I a Toxic Coparent? And it's the hardest chapter to read by design. Jill, why did we feel it was essential to make the reader turn the lens on themselves? Jill Kaufman: I mean, this was your idea and I loved it because I think we all do things that are not great for our children. we're human and we make mistakes. And so, ⁓ the people who that chapter are probably not the problem because ⁓ if you have some you're not the worst of the worst. So, but it's a really good way to check in and see. ⁓ Justin: Yeah. Jill Kaufman: what I'm doing that I can change to make things better for my children. And ⁓ I love that it's in there. Justin: it's also some pretty simple stuff, and sometimes you may not even realize you're doing it, but once you ⁓ know what it is, you stop doing it. Things do I speak critically about my co-parent with an earshot of my kids, even casually? Do I quiz my children about the other parents' home finances or new relationships? one thing that I tell all my clients who are going through divorce, there is a court mandated co-parenting course. That many attorneys tell you to take right before the divorce is finalized. that actually happened in my divorce. I tell my clients to ask their attorneys for that course at the beginning of the process ⁓ not only is it a really valuable course, but you're gonna learn to do things right from the beginning. And once you start right, you stay right. So ⁓ think ⁓ it's really critical. Jill. When we were writing the book, ⁓ you insisted, and I agreed because I think it made amazing sense to talk about the the kids' experience, and that's really the whole heart of this book. Everything else, communication tools, schedules, ⁓ the layer, it's all in service of this. It's really we're doing this for the kids to have ⁓ a experience because asking themselves questions quietly. Am I safe? Am I loved? Is it my fault? What happens next? Jill, this is your 25 years of parent education right here. One of the most powerful ideas in this section is the difference between what you call feeling stoppers and feeling encouragers. Can you talk about number one, why it's so important to make sure that we put the the children in the center and really understand and read through the section? And secondly, can you talk about the feeling stoppers and feeling encouragers? Jill Kaufman: Absolutely. So is for parents. I used to teach this course for parents who were not divorcing, ⁓ who just were trying to raise, healthy children. ⁓ And most do communicate with their kids using feeling stoppers. We don't even realize it. when we solve the problem, we are stopping our children from feeling and from expressing their feeling. When we ⁓ lecture them or ignore something that they say, you little things that we don't even realize are feeling stoppers. The feeling encouragers are really getting them to talk because ⁓ we talk too ⁓ when I was teaching this class, I love this fact. ⁓ Parents say over compliance requests a day and kids become parent deaf. ⁓ So ⁓ we talking talking and talking and we're not letting our children speak and we're not listening, so ⁓ it's about listening and encouraging them to talk. So I didn't realize you feel that way. Tell me more about it. Or I I can understand that you feel that way. I get that. really just empathetic, understanding responses to them, not like I can't believe your father said that or, ⁓ how did that feel when your father or your mother said that? ⁓ asking them how they felt and focusing on the child ⁓ opposed to your own feelings ⁓ lecturing them and talking too much so, so important when you're supporting your child through this. Did I answer question? Justin: Absolutely. I also think it's important to note kids go through different ages and stages and their brain doesn't stop developing until they're twenty-six. So, this is not just something you deal with on, day one through, day one eighty. It's something you're gonna continually, build upon and deliver messages and have conversations that are appropriate to the kid's age. ⁓ And if you don't know what those are, partner with someone like me or Jill, or a so that you have a better understanding of where your kids are. Jill Kaufman: It's so true because what they need at four, five, six, seven is very different than twelve, thirteen, fourteen. ⁓ we do have ⁓ appropriate ways to communicate with them in the book. ⁓ but it's really about listening more than talking, which is hard for for us to do as parents. Justin: There's also a chapter called the Resolution Ladder. And I want to bring it home with one of these tools because I think it answers every major question a co-parent eventually faces. When something goes wrong, what do I actually do? And how far do I take it? The mistake people make often is they go from zero to attorney. A schedule conflict happens, or the other parent says, I'm just keeping the kids one more night, and the instinct is to panic and call in an attorney or threaten court. Put on the gloves. But court should be the last resort, not the first reaction. So we build what we call the resolution ladder. It's got six rungs, and you start at the top and only move down as far as you genuinely have to. Rung one is direct conversation. Use biff, keep it neutral and specific and in writing. Free, ⁓ control immediately. ⁓ is where most issues should usually get resolved. Rung two is parenting plan review. Go back to the document. What does the order actually say? Let the structure answer the questions before you escalate. Also free, also full control. Rung three is mediation. A neutral third party helps you negotiate, but you both keep your decision-making power. Low cost, shared control. Rung four is a parenting coordinator or arbitrator, where a professional makes binding or semi-binding calls on specific disputes. Faster than court, but now someone else is calling the shots. Rung five is attorney intervention, a formal letter or motion, which means it's no longer a conversation. It's a legal proceeding. High cost, low control. And rung six is court, where judge decides and the outcome is completely out of your hand. Highest cost in every sense, financial, emotional, and relational. Jill, you're a mediator. Make the case for why staying high on this ladder is not just cheaper, it's actually better for the kids. Jill Kaufman: ⁓ my gosh, there's so many reasons. So, once you ⁓ through attorneys and once you go to court, a judge who is not a parenting professional, who doesn't know your kids, who doesn't know the situation, is going to make a decision. That is the worst thing that you could do ⁓ for your family. you may need to do that if you're dealing with a very difficult situation, but you certainly don't want to do that at first. so try to communicate. I mean, say as per the agreement. I mean, people don't realize that agreement is like the Bible for your co-parenting relationship. So you gotta go back there. You gotta make sure things are in there that are important and you gotta go back there and check what's in there and say, as per the agreement, section, you can put out the section and put in what the words are. you cannot. change the parenting schedule without both parents' approval. And you can say, this is a legal document. ⁓ If you to ⁓ talk about let's talk about it. But this is really not the appropriate way to handle things. they may not know that. They may think that you're being ridiculous. Like this was just a framework that we talked about and we can we be flexible. ⁓ So maybe your co-parent is just needs to talk about things and to understand how serious this is. because not everybody is a bad They just might not be an informed co-parent. So that definitely try to do that at first. ⁓ And then mediation a great option. I mean, yes, you have to pay for it, but you still control everything in mediation. So There's lots of options, and I love that ladder. Justin: The principle underneath the whole ladder is this use the least amount of conflict and outside intervention needed to solve the problem while keeping your child's best interests at the center. And the mindset shift the book asks for is moving from what feels fair to me to what's actually enforceable, what is actually documented, and what actually protects my child. Most co-parenting conflicts are not even about bad intentions. They're about unclear structure and undefined expectations. parent assumes something was obvious. The other assumes a friendly text exchange is the court order. And clarity when kids are moving between two homes is not a luxury. It's emotional safety, not just for the kids, but for the parents as well. Jill, before I let you go, I want to ask you the one question I think every listener is caring right now. For the parent who's in it right now, who's exhausted, possibly in a high conflict situation. Feeling like they're failing. What is the one thing you want them to walk away from this conversation? Jill Kaufman: I want them to know that this is really difficult, to co-parent, go through divorce, not see your kids for part of the time, not have them to look in on at night. ⁓ All these things are really big And and having support ⁓ is key. got to have support as you go through this. You've got to have structure in your life so that you can have things that you're doing when you don't have your children. So that when you have your children, you're really focused on that and not so sad and grieving. ⁓ And got have a way to move forward because your children need you to. And they need you to have your own life ⁓ and they need to get along as much as you can with their other parent. So, you can do this no matter what your situation is. and if you need support, get it. Justin: Those are wise, wise words. The way you choose to co-parent will shape not just your kids' well-being, but your own. It can keep you tethered to the past, or it can free you to design your next chapter. And the most powerful gift you can give your children is not a perfect parent. It's a parent who is intentional, grounded, and growing. That is you 2.0 in action. Your kids are going to look back on this period one day, and you get a say in what they remember. Not total control. But a say. Spend it well. Jill, thank you for writing this book with me. It was a real honor. And thank you for being here today. Where can our where where can our listeners get a hold of you? Jill Kaufman: Thank you. ⁓ thank you so much, Justin. It was my pleasure to be here. you can get a hold of me ⁓ through my website, divorcecoachjill dot com, info at divorcecoachjill dot com and I have a free Facebook group, separation and divorce support community for people going through divorce. So you can join me there too. Justin: And ⁓ I am part of these Facebook groups and they're incredible. So wrapping up our show, if this conversation hit home and you want to go deeper, our new book, The Co-Parenting Guide, is where all of these frameworks live in full with the activities, scripts, and worksheets to actually put them to work. You can buy the book on Amazon.com. You can learn more about Jill's work, her thriving through divorce program, and her book, I'm getting divorced now what at divorcecoachjill.com. And if you're navigating divorce or co-parenting and you feel stuck, overwhelmed, or you just want someone strategic in your corner, I offer a free 30-minute consultation. No pitch, no pressure, just clarity. You can find that, my books, U2.0, Divorce a Better Way Forward, and the U2.0 workbook, and now this new divorce ⁓ co-parenting playbook and the full archive of this podcast at reclaimandrebot.me. If you found value in today's episode, share it with someone who needs it. We're building a community of people who choose transformation over conflict and strategy over reaction. Until next time, take care of yourself and start building your next chapter, your U 2.0.