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When Separated Parents Turn Choice Into Pressure · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, child and adolescent psychotherapist.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is the next episode in the series I Wish My Parents Would.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I should apologize first of all.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've been rather involved in my other job and therefore haven't been able to follow up as quickly as I would have liked.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm going to be turning my attention back to the um the podcasts.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now the the reason for for doing these podcasts, or rather this particular series, is because as I said in the introduction before the first episode, very often I will hear things in the consulting room or see things in the consulting room which lead to then having a discussion with the child about things which very probably that child won't tell their parents.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: As I said previously, this isn't a criticism, it's much more the the sort of position that children end up placed in and what they are holding, and sometimes what they are holding is incredibly conflicting, and that can then sometimes give rise to symptomatic behaviors, which is then what really causes them to come into therapy.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I wish my parents wouldn't ask me to choose that's the title of this episode.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So Dad asks whether I want to stay with him for another night.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Mum asks why didn't I telephone her while I was there?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Dad says I'm old enough to decide.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Mum says she won't get angry, whatever happens, but I can tell that she's upset.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they both ask me what I want, but what I really want is not to have to answer.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: In the first episode we considered the child who wished to be noticed before having to shout.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: This time, I want to think about children whose parents have separated and the burden that can be placed upon them when they're asked to choose.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: We often hear that children should have a voice.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, they should.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Their feelings and experiences and wishes matter.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: They shouldn't be silenced simply because the adults find that what they have to say is uncomfortable.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: But there's an important difference between allowing a child to have a voice and making that child responsible for a decision.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, where do you want to live?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to see your dad this weekend?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Would you rather spend Christmas with me or Ma?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now these may sound in some ways a bit like considerate questions, but and a parent may genuinely believe they're giving the child some control.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: But to the child, the question may mean something quite different.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Which parent are you prepared to hurt?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Children usually understand far more about the emotional world around them than adults realize.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: They notice the hesitation before a parent speaks and they hear the alteration in tone when the other parent's name is mentioned.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: They see disappointment in a face, even when the words say it's entirely up to you.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: The child may know that there is no answer that leaves everybody happy.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: If they choose one parent, what will happen to the other?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Will mum be lonely?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Will dad think I don't love him?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Will one parent become angry?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Will the other start crying?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Will my answer be repeated in court or to a solicitor or to a social worker or during the next argument?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: A question presented as freedom can therefore be experienced as an emotional test.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And some children try to give each parent the answer they think that parent needs.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: They tell mum they want to remain with her.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Later they tell dad they wish they could stay longer with him.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this might be described as inconsistency, manipulation, or dishonesty, but it's none of those things.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: The child might be trying to preserve two important relationships in a situation they can't control.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And their answers alter because the emotional circumstances alter.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: In each home, they're responding to a different parent, a different atmosphere, and a different fear of loss.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Other children refuse to answer.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: They might say, I don't mind, they just shrug.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or they become irritable or leave the room.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: They may appear obstructive, but their refusal can be a form of protection.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: If every available answer feels dangerous, nothing that they say is going to be helpful.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they say nothing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the safest response.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Some children can make very definite choices, and they may insist that they want to live with one parent or that they no longer want to see the other.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, such statements must be taken seriously, but taking a child seriously doesn't mean accepting the statement without curiosity.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: We need to understand what surrounds it.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is the child frightened?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Have they been harmed?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are there safeguarding concerns?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are they trying to escape conflict between the parents?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do they feel responsible for protecting a parent or have they become angry with the other one?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or are they expressing something that's developed through their own experience with that parent or something they believe they are expected to say and be?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's no single explanation.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's precisely why the child's voice must be heard carefully rather than used quickly.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: There are circumstances in which a child's resistance to contact reflects genuine fear or an experience of harm.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And no child should be persuaded into unsafe contact merely because adults believe that maintaining a relationship with both parents is always preferable.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I really do find that interesting because very often when I'm involved in cases, and unfortunately far too many of them, where social worker involves CAFCAS, there is an adversarial exchange between solicitors, and there's all sorts of stuff going off in the background.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, very often what I come into contact with is the qu the question that I ask: whose rights are we talking about?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Whose needs are we talking about?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And to some extent, I see this played out in court quite a lot, where somehow the child gets lost.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: What becomes the the centerpiece of discussion is who can have how much of the child.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, it's that that's nonsensical because as a parent, you don't have an automatic right to have contact with the child.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have a right to see my children.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, that is the beginning of a sentence.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more to it than that.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, a child's rights under the Children Act outweigh yours considerably.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, yes, you may have a right, and the child has a right to contact you, but that contact should not be injurious.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: That contact should be within reasonable bounds, focused upon the needs and understanding of the child.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I think when parents uh when children start to say, I don't want to, or they might not say, they may show, then I think the task is about listening.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And a parent might say, I want to know how things are for you.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell me if you're worried or unhappy or frightened, I'll listen.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the grown-ups take responsibility for deciding what happens, and you don't have to choose between us.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not the same as saying you're old enough now, you decide.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because age doesn't remove conflict.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: An adolescent may be able to express a clear view but still feel responsible for the emotional consequences of expressing it.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're concerned, for example, that as their social lives have changed, and that you know, one parent might live some way away from the child's or young person's social circle, access to their peer group is going to be restricted or is going to be determined by which weekend I'm where, and so on.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yet simultaneously not feel able to say anything to the parent because they will feel guilt if that parent then becomes upset or disappointed.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think it's really important that we we understand this and and see it through the eyes of the child.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, adults may focus on the immediate behaviour that they see when maybe a child complains of headaches before moving between homes or become angry or frightened as the weekend approaches.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: They may forget belongings, develop stomach pains, refuse to pack or become distressed over what appears to be a very small change of plan.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And on their return, some children are actually quite distressed.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to say all children, some children.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And adults may focus on the immediate behavior.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why does every handover have to become such a drama?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the handover may represent much more than travelling from one house to another.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it may in it it may involve leaving one parent behind, entering another emotional atmosphere, adjusting to different expectations, and carrying information between two worlds that don't feel safely connected.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes children become messengers, and I think this is awful.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tell your mother, etc., etc.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Ask your father, etc., etc.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know this inability between the adults to communicate rationally and respectfully is something that then becomes internalized.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I remember a parent saying to me, I don't go to the house, I wait in the car, and when I pick the children up, I don't I don't I don't go to the door.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I said something like, Well, I I can see that for you that may be difficult, but what message does that give to the children?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, leaving one environment and going to another with no contact between the adults.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: How how does that feel?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and think about it from the point of view of how old.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are we talking about adolescents?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly not.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're not just adolescents, we're talking about children, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, getting out of one car, walking down a pathway and knocking on a door, you know, and and and then and then you know, su something similar at the other end.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's quite bizarre.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the other thing is even sometimes neutral exchanges with with the child, or apparently neutral questions can be experienced as and can actually be quite loaded.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: What did you do at dad's?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Who was at mum's house?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Did your dad say anything about me?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: How did mum seem?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a child may begin monitoring what can safely be said in each home, and they learn to edit their experiences, conceal enjoyment, and anticipate adult reactions.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a happy weekend with one parent may feel like a betrayal of the other.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the child may stop speaking freely, not because nothing has happened, but because ordinary conversation has suddenly become emotionally dangerous.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: What might the children wish to say?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Please don't make me report on the other house.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Please don't look hurt when I say I had a good time.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Please speak to each other instead of sending messages through me.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Please don't ask me to prove which one of you I love most.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps most importantly, please let me love you both without feeling disloyal to either.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, separation involves considerable pain.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: There may have been betrayal, abuse, coercive control, or serious concerns about parenting.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Neutrality between adults isn't always possible and it should never be manufactured where doing so would obscure risk.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: But even in a highly difficult situation, the child should not be recruited into resolving the adult relationship.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: A child can be told there are difficulties between the grown-ups and we're working out how to keep things safe.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: They don't need to be told.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: You must decide which of us is telling the truth.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: For separated parents, one of the most protective things they can communicate is that the child's relationship with the other parent doesn't have to mirror their own.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I would say is that in my experience, very often I will work with parents who can be highly acrimonious.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: I see it played out in the consulting room.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And when I'm trying to offer parental guidance to such parents, the different the reasons why they're not together become apparent very quickly.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: When that happens, what it shows me is that the child is going to be lost in all of this because the child is having to navigate between two parents who can't stand each other.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if I if I can see that, the child is definitely going to experience it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's at that point that I say we are not doing that, we are not having that kind of exchange.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to have a demonstration of what's wrong between you.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: That that is not relevant.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's not why we're here.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I do that is because I want to orientate people's attention towards the child.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I want to be able to do is to have them develop a working relationship.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I want them to understand that their needs take second place to those of the child.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: For that to happen, they have to have a shared understanding.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways, then I'm sort of speaking for the child.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: This this is maybe what it's like for this child.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why you've come to me.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'll only be taking or working with parents in that way if their child is in therapy with me.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm hoping, it's it's an it's a kind of educational approach, insofar as it says, look, I understand that you hate each other, but we we can't get into that.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: You have to take that someplace else.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: In this room, our focus has to be on the child, and I can't deviate from that.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in a sense, what I'm doing is offering an independent perspective.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is, look, let's understand what this is like for the child, let's understand how children internalize these things, how they have to try and navigate them, but don't have a language or the authority to be able to communicate them.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they're stuck.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where does the stuckness go?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, through the acting out of school, through uh you know, a whole host of um other symptomatic behaviors.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: If we can understand what it is that this child has internalized from you both, then the split that that's created in them that's reflecting the split between you.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have to close the gap.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: If we close the gap between the adults, the gap inside the child starts to close.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard because adults may be very angry, they might be very hurt, they they might be in impossible situations.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Nonetheless, the task is the same.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: How the hurt and anger and everything else gets dealt with is another question.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So asking a child to choose isn't just it's not just about the words, it's about the behaviors that are demonstrated.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I hope this has been helpful.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: In the next episode, I want to talk about another unspoken wish.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, I wish my parents would stop making me responsible for how they feel.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.