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Transcript

Has Pride Lost Its Meaning? · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today are Matt Lansdel and Reno Johnston. Today we are asking the question, has pride lost its meaning? We'll be talking about how pride has evolved from protest to party, or maybe something else entirely different. What pride means to each of us personally, and whether or not pride still matters in 2025. What we want you to get out of this episode is a deeper understanding of how pride can actually be more complex than maybe it seems on the surface. And we want to create a space for you to reflect on what pride actually means for you. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us to get into the ears of the people who need us. By the way, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You could also use the tap button on YouTube to show us some love. All right, it is Pride Month. This is being released on June 12, right in the middle of Pride Month for a lot of places in the world. So I want to start by giving us some context. Okay, a little history lesson here by Professor Michael here. So throughout the 50s and 60s, gayness was mostly in the shadows. It was underground and in many places, illegal. Okay. There were precious few spaces that queer people had that we could actually be ourselves. And those spaces were often targeted by the police. One of those places was the Stonewall Inn, a popular meeting spot for gay, lesbian and trans folks in Greenwich Village in New York city. And in 1969, after being fed up with years of police harassment and abuse, a group of people, especially trans women of color, such as Marsha P. Johnson, decided to fight back. Tensions erupted, riots and protests ensued for several days after. And that moment was the beginning of the gay rights movement. Okay, A year later, to mark the one year anniversary of the Stonewall riots in 1970, the first Pride March, not parade, it was a Pride march, took place in New York City as an act of resistance, visibility, and defiance. Basically, the gist was, we're showing people we're not going anywhere. We're still here. A year later, this is still happening. And that's how it all began. That's how Pride began. At the same time, similar things were happening all over the world, in cities across Europe as well. So we're not just talking about the US here. So over the years, Pride has evolved. Okay, that was 1970, was the first Pride March. It became a reason to celebrate the community. Right? We kept banded together, the trans folks, the lesbians, and the gays. At the time, there was no LGBTQIA kind of Alphabet. So we kind of band together, we organized politically, we got more active, socially active, and, yeah, we became a reason to celebrate the community during the 80s and 90s. It was also a place for mourning at the height of the AIDS crisis. There's still elements of protest throughout this time. So, you know, at the time, it was protesting the government negligence of HIV, AIDS. Throughout the 2000s, it became really a space for protesting and advocating for marriage. Right. Equality. But, yeah, since those 55 years, since Stonewall, the LGBTQIA2S community went from largely being invisible, underground, hidden, to far more mainstream and accepted. And that's a pretty short time, if you think about it. And so here we are in 2025. Bigotry, prejudice, and hate are alive and well. Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. And when I pulse check the community lately, all over the world, there are a lot of people who are worried, truly, and they have anxiety and a lot of fear because services that people rely on are being taken away. Freedoms and rights are being challenged and stripped away. And I've said it before. I'll say it again. Rights aren't rights if they can be taken away. All we really have are temporary privileges. So that's why I wanted to have this conversation about what Pride actually means in 2025. What is the meaning of pride? I think somewhere along the way, we got confused. Did we get too party focused? Did it get too commercialized? Did we disconnect from our roots? Are we too fragmented as an LGBTQIA community? And is pride even relevant anymore? So that brings us to our very first question, which is, what's the biggest difference that you guys see between prides gone by and prides recently and today? Let's start with Matt.
• 4:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, I kind of struggled with this question. I want to just release preface by saying, like, I. I was too young to be part of what I would call the activism. I don't see Pride now as activism. I see it more as, like, what you said. Party. It's almost like a celebration. Pride has become a celebration, and I think there's like, definitely benefit to that. And I think most places in the world, we're not needing to be doing marches to show our presence. I think our presence is showing in so many different ways. I think corporate support is one of them. Whether that's, you know, authentic or it's a kind of like a subtle coercion based off of, like, you know, this kind of woke culture of like, you know, you have to do it or else your bottom line will be right. It's a lot of virtue. Signaling, I think, is what gets corporations to support it. And as we can see now with Trump being in, everybody's pulling their funding, and it's just goes to show you, like, fear is the thing that brought them in to support us, and fear will be the thing that takes them out of supporting us. Right. So corporate is like, I don't feel pride, or I don't feel a lot of support from corporations. In my opinion, I think it's a cop out. But for me, it feels like it stayed the same. Like, I don't have the experience of it being a march down the street. And it's this thing where we're, you know, we have to make ourselves visible. For me, it's always been the. The Pride parade is, you know, full of partying and drinking and, you know, the after parties and the beer gardens and all these sorts of things. And so, yeah, I. And then I was trying to really grapple with this, like, and maybe I'll pose a question back to you guys, like, what is, like, what does pride truly mean? Because I'm thinking about this, for me, like, is pride, gay pride, an inner thing or is it an outer thing that we're experiencing? Like, when you think of mainstream pride, if I were to say gay pride, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Right. Like, I'm curious for you guys, like, what would it be? For me, it is that it's guys in Speedos on floats and glitter and partying and. And these sorts of things, which. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. But I think that for that to be the thing that represents a whole population of people, I'm not even going to say a community of people. I'll call it a population of people. I think that is very limiting. How would you define, like, mainstream pride? I heard you use the word mainstream. Like, what is that? What would that mean? Because I'm sure there's subshoots of what pride means to people. But the main chunk of it. What would you say that is?
• 7:19
  Speaker A: How would you Define it in one sentence. I would say right off the top of my head, the celebration of the queer community. That's probably the most umbrella term that I would give it. How about you, Reno? What do you think?
• 7:29
  Speaker C: I would say that that's like a fair deduction of pride. Yeah. I love this conversation because it's so nuanced. Right. Like, I. I really appreciate that you open with the history of pride, because I do feel like somewhere along the way that might have shifted for people. What I do notice is that the generation prior to my own, for example, or generations prior to my own are very much aware of, and probably because they were closer to it, if not like, involved and engaged in it explicitly, they know where we were. Right. And they know where we are, and they know how we got to this point. And what makes sense to me is that, you know, what started out as a. Like a protest and a march and a form of resistance and liberation still continues to be. But the way I view evolution is that each sort of level includes and transcends the former. And so I think it still in ways serves as a. A protest and a march. But I also think that in the process of us arriving at a place where we have created or reclaimed more freedom and autonomy and agency, it's become more of a celebration than a protest in a march. But there are still those elements of protest and of marching and of advocacy and activism present that to me, they seem somewhat less visible. The focus does in some way seem to be on what I would regard as some of the more superficial components of what this celebration is about or what this movement is about. But I still hear and see those remnants of its origins and also feel that it is valuable for us to continue to be visible, to continue to be front facing in public, and to continue to perpetuate a conversation that I think is never ending. You know, in a way.
• 9:50
  Speaker A: Well said. And I'm curious, Rena, what's your take on the whole corporatization?
• 9:55
  Speaker C: I mean, I think I resonate with some of what Matt said. Like, it's almost unsurprising to me, you know, like, when suddenly all these corporations and organizations are pulling back, you know, Di. And, you know, donations and money. And I'm not shocked. Like, no part of me is like, oh, my God. Gasp. Right. Because that's just the nature of that, of that space. It's transactional. Right. And truly, you do really see who actually cares and is for the cause and who's in it for, you know, virtue signaling or saving face. Or their bottom line. Right. And what's beautiful is we see that too now. So rest assured there's going to be a full circle moment where, you know, things will return or end up in a different place. And we'll know at that point. And very clearly you won't get our dollar, you won't get her, like any way that you were previously able to sort of extract or transact with us, like no more. You know, you have demonstrated where we stand as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah, yeah, that may be a.
• 11:14
  Speaker A: Silver lining, I think, is what you, you know, what you just said is that we're really seeing who now that you don't have to anymore, who's still there. I think Apple recently, at the list of the time of recording recently decided their board was like unanimous. No, no, we're keeping this regardless of what the government says or does. But it's interesting to see which of these corporations are still. Still doing it because they want to or they believe in it, not because they have to. Right?
• 11:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's like a fear of being canceled. I think that's the downside of cancel culture is it creates coercion into doing things. So it's not authentic, which is. Yeah. And then when things happen like this, then we get to see who's really willing to put their bottom line on the line to be canceled because they truly support and they're actually supporting us with their heart. It's a heart centered thing.
• 12:01
  Speaker A: Right.
• 12:02
  Speaker B: Not a profit centered thing.
• 12:03
  Speaker A: And we're watching people. Well, a lot of us are watching and paying attention, which I think is a good thing. Yeah, I think that's, you know, to, to summarize that would be my. The biggest change I've seen is is that shift from activism. Again, not that I was there, similar to you guys. I wasn't there in the 60s and 70. I'm a very big history buff and I watch a lot of queer history documentaries and books and all the things, so. And actually have a lot of friends who are older and they've told me firsthand what it's been about. Right. In Toronto was the bathhouse raids. But anyway, I digress. Yeah, I think that has been a big piece of it. And you know, when I think about this and I talk about this with friends and whatnot, it's almost like we've become a victim of our own success, especially, you know, gay white CIS folks. We got a lot of the rights we wanted. Trans people, not so much. Right. So I think in becoming a Victim of our own success, maybe. Like, okay, we got the HIV treatment, we got PrEP, we got marriage equality, at least in North America and a lot of countries at this point. But after that, Rena was right. Okay, well, what's left? Like, we got. We're accepted, we're here. No one's really fighting us as much anymore. I mean, until very recently. But I think that's kind of become the biggest issue for me, is not. That's the thing. I don't know. Is it an issue like, we got what we wanted, so, yay, celebrate. Maybe that's the celebration. But at the same time, I think we've lost the fight, and we've lost that. And there are still people that we have left behind in other countries all over the world. The trans.
• 13:31
  Speaker C: Yeah, I want to. I'm so glad you said that, Michael, because I think that there's a couple of things. One, in my experience, there's a sort of hierarchy of, let's say, privilege. Right? And in essence, the way I see things is we've sort of taken a hierarchy, a privilege that exists outside of, let's say, the. The LGBTQ umbrella, and we've sort of, in a sense, like, overlaid it. Now, there are benefits to, let's say, a marginalized non privileged group or less privileged group receiving the benefits that are happening over here, the privileges that are happening over here. But the issue, as I see it, is that in addition to that, we've sort of taken a lot of, let's say, we've received the best and some of the worst of what's going on over there as well, or the not so best. And so that's something to look at as well. And I think where. Where we get stuck is when we go, oh, well, I'm good now, so I don't really need to worry about anybody else. And I'm not saying that that's wrong, because, you know, to go back to this idea of, like, cancel culture and the coercion of, like, activism and advocacy, it's like, I'll be the first to say nobody has to do anything. You know, nobody has to do anything. Right? And at the same time, I am definitely curious about how we get to a point individually and collectively where, like, where we want to, you know, where we find ourselves in a position of privilege. And then we go, okay, let me extend that outward now. Like, yes, we got what we wanted. And like you said, there are other places that aren't experiencing that. How do we now extend that privilege outward? And we're Seeing it in some ways, you know, there are conversations, there are protests, there is activism happening with regard to things that are happening in other parts of the world. And we must keep going, you know, as I see it. And that's personally why I think continuing to march and protest and rally and organize and commune and be front facing is so important, you know?
• 16:05
  Speaker A: Very well said.
• 16:06
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 16:06
  Speaker A: When it's not happening to us, it's not as compelling, it's not as real, which makes perfect sense. Like, I get it, like when it's your own rights and freedoms, when it's your own struggle, that brings up the anger, brings up the protest within you. But when it's happening, you know, way over there or, you know, to someone far away, then it's not as compelling. But I think you're right 100%. We have to not forget that part and celebrate because we've come a long way and have all the fun. But also, hey, there are people who don't get to have that. Okay, let's hear from our audience. If you're watching us on YouTube, tell us maybe what your first pride was like and what your first pride experience was like and maybe how you think it's changed since then. Okay. And if you are enjoying this conversation, then we invite you to join our weekly events within the Gaiman's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences in a big group environment. Or we also have our connection circles, which are smaller, more intimate breakout room conversations where you can discuss the topics that we discuss on the podcast with other members of the community. If you're interested in these events, Please go to www.gaiman'sbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP.
• 17:12
  Speaker C: There's one more thing I missed, and it's that, that depth piece. Right? So, like, there's a lot that's changed externally as a result of our advocacy. And part of our privilege is also that we now get to go inward, not just outward, but like inward. And I thought of this because we're talking about the sharing circles and we're talking about all this work we do in the community, and it's like, yeah, okay, we've. We've got this out here more or less, until recently, as you say, we've figured this out. What about this? You know, because this bleeds into our community. Right. And then we are not solid, we are not united. Right. So anyway, yeah. With ourselves and each other. Yeah.
• 17:58
  Speaker A: Beautiful segue. Because this question we're Going within. We're talking more personally. So more personally speaking, guys, how has the meaning of pride changed for you specifically? Over time, Matt?
• 18:09
  Speaker B: Yeah, that is a perfect segue because I think for me, my, my work around. When I think about pride, I think of acceptance. Like, I actually would prefer to change the word pride to acceptance because I think for me, all the work that I've had to do to get to a place where I can feel proud of being a gay person is self acceptance work. And I think that's been a big, big piece of, of it. And when I was younger, I think I was trying to do it outside myself, right? I was trying to fit in, which that's part of it too. I think it's, it's just part of the journey, you know, going to bars and clubs and doing all the things, doing all the gay pride things and then got into therapy and I started working on myself. And that's when I actually started to tap into like, what truly like pride means to me, which is loving myself, accepting myself. And it really, it's not even so much about being gay like that that piece had to integrate, but it's more so just loving myself as a human being. And I think for me, what, what happened was I started to identify less and less with this term of being gay. And I wasn't like grabbing onto it. Like, this is my identity. And I think that's something that we need to rebrand as a gay culture is. It's like everything is gay. You know, it's like everything has to be gay. And we, we grab on to so much about this identity and I think it becomes who we are. It's like, you know, you know, you look at being gay, my, my gayness is, it's a small part of who I am. When I think about it, like, there's so much that makes up who I am. So that for me was my healing because I wasn't like, oh, I'm this, this gay person and I have to identify with all these things. And then what happened when I started to identify less and less with this label of being gay? I started to feel less shame, I started to feel less anxiety and, and all these pieces started to come into play. So I would say now the way I interact with pride is it's like, you know, I was in Amsterdam and pride happened to be. When I was there, I didn't go for it and I, so I celebrated and I went out. And for me it was more of like a seeing people coming together. And like in Amsterdam. It was unlike anything I've ever seen. Like, there was probably just as many straight people there as there was gay people and families. And it was like this truly coming together of everybody. And for me, that was really beautiful. I've been to Prides in Vancouver where it was, you know, like, just heavy on the. The circuit and, you know, the partying and like, just that kind of culture, and that wasn't really my jam. So I. But I. I do really think that we can move towards our own experience, our own culture of whatever we want to create for us. Like, you look at Pride Month, there's going to be a zillion events and there's something for everybody, you know, like, so I go now to be social. I don't go to be proud. Like, it's not like when I'm there, I'm like beaming with pride for being gay. It's more like it's an opportunity to be around other gay people and mingle and. And these sorts of things. Because I think I've done the work internally that I love being gay and I hope I incarnate in my next life as a gay man again, because I think it's fantastic. The early stages were tough, but if I can come in with the exact wisdom and the product cultivated now and start there, it would be amazing because I feel like being a gay man is awesome.
• 21:24
  Speaker C: So I want to be a lesbian.
• 21:28
  Speaker A: I'm not surprised. That doesn't surprise.
• 21:29
  Speaker C: I want to come back as a lesbian.
• 21:31
  Speaker B: Oh, gosh, yes.
• 21:33
  Speaker A: Matt, I'm curious when and where, if you remember, was your first, like, actual Pride celebration? Like, I would love to see what you were like in that environment. Do you remember?
• 21:42
  Speaker B: Well, I was trying to think of it. I have a bit of a fragmented memory because I feel like I started going to things when I was younger and I think I went to Vancouver maybe and I went to Montreal, I went to a Toronto one. And this was all, I think, before getting into my first relationship, which was I was 21. So I think between the age of 18 and 21, I did like some actual Pride stuff. And then I was in a relationship with a guy and we were very domestic and I didn't do anything for those eight years, like, even, like, I didn't do anything gay at all. And we were just very hunkered down. It was a lovely time. And then when we broke up when I was 29, I went to, I think, my first Calgary Pride, which was Calgary's Pride is really interesting because around that time I was 28. So this was about. Yeah, about 12 or 13 years ago, there was not even enough people to like, fill the streets, like, beside, like, it was just so sporadic. And then in these last 13 years, I think last year Calgary had 110,000 people at their pride parade, which is like, massive. That's equal the same amount of people at San Francisco, which is like. So the support in Calgary has dramatically increased. So that. That's something that also makes me proud too, is that when you see cities that are tend to lean more conservative, have, you know, support, it just goes to show you, like, how far we've come. And yeah, that'll probably bleed into question three.
• 23:11
  Speaker A: But, Reina, how about you? What. How has the meaning of pride changed for you over time?
• 23:16
  Speaker C: Yeah, well, okay, so first of all, gay, right? Oh, I almost died when you said gayness the first time, Michael. At the beginning I was like, I need to mute myself. And then I took a sip of water and I almost spit it across the room because I was just like, gayness, gayness. So for me, first I want to say the word gay, right? Like, for me, it holds two meanings. So when I think of gay, I think of like, like, I'm a man loving man. I'm a man sexing man. You know, I like men. And then I think of gay and sort of the more cultural sense, right? It's like their qualities and attributes to being a gay person. And I celebrate both of those things, you know, in both contexts. Like, both of those contexts are celebration worthy for me. I have, similarly to Matt, evolved beyond my identity as a gay person, right? I still identify as gay. I still celebrate my gayness, right? And simultaneously, there's so much more going on here, you know, there's so much more going on here. And so I certainly think that that is also worth, you know, accessing, celebrating, highlighting, et cetera. I think when it comes to pride and how it's changed, for me personally, I hold it more lightly. Like, when I was initially introduced to pride, what I remember was, yeah, a parade, lots of color music, Everyone seemed really happy. They were dancing and people were half naked and it was fabulous, you know, And I just thought, oh, that looks like a lot of fun. And, you know, I participated in some parades and some marches. I was on some floats, and it was a good time. I really enjoyed it. And somewhere throughout my journey, my own personal journey around, you know, being gay and queer and being in the community, my relationship to pride started to shift it for me. It started to become what I'll Say is I became more clear about who I was. And within the buffet, that is like, being Gay Pride, the LGBTQ umbrella, like, I started to become more clear as to what parts I really connected with and what I didn't, who I wanted to be and who I wasn't. Right. And what I resonated with and what I didn't. And so it was great because I tried it all on. Like, you know, got the T shirt, danced on the float, did it all. Wore the covergirl. Like, you name it, I tried it out. At some point, I was like, okay, you know, I'll leave this behind. I'll take this now. With Pride, I show up because my presence matters, because our presence matters, because this celebration is a form of activism and advocacy for me. Just because we are where we are doesn't mean the work is over, so to speak. And so, you know, I choose to show up. I choose to celebrate in the ways that make sense to me. I'm less inclined to go to the parties now. It's less likely that you'll see me on a float. If I'm to participate in any large fashion, I'm more interested in giving speeches. You know, like, my idea would be to. To continue to remind people of where we were, where we find ourselves, and to really reflect on where we want to go. You know, if we're looking at where we find ourselves, do we want to continue what we're up to and knowing that that will create where we're going, or do we want to pause and go, okay, some of this is great. Some of this isn't. Let's work on the. Some of this that isn't. You know, that's how I relate to Pride now. And please know that the partying, I love it. Right? I'm here for it. I love dancing. I love seeing the parade, everything. Like, I'm totally here for it. And I'm also very much interested in elevating the conversation and the experience. Right? So I'm not saying do away with that stuff. I'm saying, great, we're here. Let's elevate it. That's basically where I'm at right now.
• 27:47
  Speaker A: I love that. I was just about to ask you what. Because you had talked about, you know, taking some and leaving the rest. It sounds like you're very clear now on the elements that. Not that you want to, like, throw them away, but, like, it's kind of like the way you said has, like, been there, done that. Let's elevate it. And I love that you Framed it that way.
• 28:01
  Speaker C: Totally. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, listen, wear your booty shorts, wear your whatever, like, do it all, have fun, get on the floats, do your thing. That's great, right? And also, yeah, where are we going? Right? Like we're here. Where are we going next? Where do you want to go? Who do you want to be?
• 28:17
  Speaker A: You know, I love that man. I love what you said. Celebration is a form of activism that is so important and I never really thought of it that way, but yeah, it really is. It's kind of a reminder. It's a visibility. Right. Like we're here, we're not going anywhere. Like it or not now how visible that is and, and the images we collectively portray, or I don't even want to say that. I also want to say, you know, the images the media chooses to portray, obviously it's going to be a lot more. It's going to get more viewers to post half naked sexy men on a float than it is to talk about maybe history or the trans community and the issues that they're having. Right. Like a little bit of this is the media as well. But I think, I think Matt had said, if you actually go to a Pride celebration, at least the ones that I've been to, you will find something for you. If it's family oriented, at least in Toronto there are so much. You wouldn't even believe how many family oriented events there are every single day for all kinds of different families and places and spaces and it's amazing. So I do think. But again, do you see that on tv? No. You won't find the news reporting about that. Right, okay, I digress. So yeah, for me, I think very similar to what you both had said. I think recognizing that my gay identity is a part of me, but not the all of me, I think is work that everybody needs to do. Not just the gay, but anything like, you know, the, the Canadian part of me, my Italian heritage, the fact that I'm this or that or like all these are aspects, just parts of our identity. At any rate, for me, I first came out in university, first year university. I remember like watching Pride, like from afar being like, okay, that's nice. But it never really feeling like me. Like I was never like, oh my God, I want to do that. But I was also not like, ew, that's disgusting. It was just like a very, eh, that's good for them. Like those are those people over there. It's not really my jam now as I interacted with more queer people on campus, as I kind of got to know my own gay self, whatever that meant. Then I became a little bit more interested in what was going on over there. When I say over there, I was in a city, a little town about an hour outside of Toronto, so it was like a suburb versus city thing. And I was like, okay, now I'm getting a little bit more interested in that. And so I did end up going to my very first pride in 2007. So five years after I came out, and I actually kind of liked it. It was fun. It was nice to be around other people. Now, had I gone, I think when I first came out in 2002, then I probably would have been a little bit scared. I probably would have been maybe a little bit afraid. I would have maybe not known what to do. But I warmed up to it in that time. So I think I entered the pride scene, if that's what you want to call it. That just the right time. And so for me now, the meaning of it is, yeah, celebration of all things gay or queer. For me specifically, I identify as gay, so that's how I want to use it. Pride, to me, feels safe. I do feel proud to be part of our community. Even if I don't get some of it, even if I don't agree, I still feel proud to call myself gay. Absolutely. And I do believe that we have a right to celebrate. And what Reno had said, like, celebration is activism. I just love that because, you know, if you think about what we're celebrating, we're not like, hating on other people. We're not, like, saying, death to the so and so's. We're not talking about violence. Is it a bit sexualized? Yeah, sure. But at the end of the day, we just want to love who we want to love. We want to love this person over here, man, woman, trans, whatever, you know, him or they, like, does it matter? Like, if it's the same sex, if it's the opposite sex? We're just wanting to love each other. So I think that makes me very proud. It's. It's about freedom. It's really about friendship. Right. When I go to Pride and I actually brought my mom and my aunt to a PRIDE one year, and they were. It was so nice to hear them validated. They were so astounded by how the community really, like, she's like, wow, this actually feels like a community. Like, people just know each other and there's so much love and, like, there's so many different people and old and young and male and female and just all These people. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. We are definitely not a perfect community. We know that. We've talked about that many times before, but that doesn't mean it's not worth celebrating. So I think that for me, as I'm thinking about it, you know, what I'm going to also say is I want to think back to that, like, 2002 version of me. That first year university student, he was a very scared, shy. I can call him a boy, even though I was 19, very much a boy. But now, if you see me upright, I am not terrified. I am not shy. I feel very courageous. I feel strong. I feel like I'm living out loud. And if that little boy could see me today, I mean, if that's not a reason to celebrate, I don't know what is.
• 32:46
  Speaker B: I love that.
• 32:48
  Speaker A: Reno, how old were you at your first pride?
• 32:50
  Speaker C: I came out when I was 19, so I guess I would have been. I would have been 19.
• 32:57
  Speaker A: Same. Yeah.
• 32:59
  Speaker C: Wow.
• 32:59
  Speaker A: And Matt?
• 33:00
  Speaker B: I think 18. Yeah, 18.
• 33:01
  Speaker A: Wow. Okay. I came out at 19, but my first pride wasn't until I guess I was 24. If they could see us now, those boys, eh?
• 33:09
  Speaker C: Oh, my goodness.
• 33:10
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 33:10
  Speaker C: Yeah. Crazy you say that. I'm just thinking like, that little dude probably had no idea that I would be on this podcast, like, you know, years later.
• 33:19
  Speaker A: All right, let's check in with our audience. If you're watching us on YouTube, check in and reflect on your own feelings about pride and what it means for you personally. And then please do share what that is with us in the comments. And if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, please check out our coaching collection, where you get lifetime access to 45 personal development coaching videos. Two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. And within building better relationships, there is an entire module dedicated specifically to connection with the community. So that one will be very relevant to what we're talking about here today. So go to www.gamemengoingdeeper.com for more info. Okay, for our last question, guys, I want to zoom out, and let's talk about purpose, relevance, and the evolving needs of the community. Okay, so do you think we still need pride in 2025? Why or why not, Matt, in the short.
• 34:12
  Speaker B: Yes, of course. Right. Why wouldn't we? And I think we need more of it. I think we need more of it, but I think we need to diversify it. I'd love to see there be more of a, like, a rebranding of what pride means, and it be more. And I think that it's already happening. But I would love to see the mainstream, whatever you want to call it, media or the mainstream gate culture, be the only thing that's represented. Like, I'd love to see there be more of some of the. More of the depth of pride, and that become more of the mainstream piece. So I would say celebration of acceptance and diversity. Like, yes, like, we want more of that, and we want to continue to let people know just in general. I don't even think Pride is necessarily just about gay, trans, whatever. I think it's about everybody. Like, people from all walks of life come to Pride events, and they. I just love the idea of celebrating individualism and divergence and these sorts of things. So I think it's beautiful. But I do think the rebrand is, like, moving away from the, like, getting high and drunk at circuit parties and not being, like, the thing. Because I think of myself as a young gay, you know, boy at 18, going into a Pride community, and it's like, that's what was holding me. And I'm very impressionable at that age. And so I think we need more spaces that are. I call them conscious. Like, conscious spaces where people can heal as well as empower. I think healing and empowerment are both, like, two essential lanes that we need to be in for progression of human consciousness. And I think the gay community does a really good job with the empowerment piece, but I think the healing piece is the piece that's missing, and I think that's, like, where the brotherhood comes in, and we're doing a good job with that. So I do think that would be my call on the community, is let's create a pride culture and a gay culture of. Of supporting one another and in development of consciousness and not just escaping ourselves with drugs, alcohol, and sex and stuff like that. And I know that. That there's. You know, I'm speaking to the stereotypes and. But it really is the mainstream piece. When you see, you know, gay pride, gay culture, it's. That's. At least that's what I think of.
• 36:23
  Speaker A: Yeah. So it sounds like you're saying that it's not pride that needs to change, but the way we express it.
• 36:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think it needs to be added to. We'll say. I don't think anything needs to be taken away from it. But I will actually say this. I'll say at the Pride parades. Pride parades are always in the afternoon. They're family friendly. And I think pride parades should be kept family friendly. And I love parades. I think they're awesome. And I think where we can celebrate the real sexualized part of being gay. I think that can happen at, like, the circuit parties and the nightclubs. I don't think it should be happening at the Pride parades. That's just my. My, my personal thing. Because what ends up happening is the right will use that as ammunition of why we're deviant and why we're disgusting and sinful and immoral. Because they'll. They'll take a photo and there's a kid sitting there watching the Pride parade, and there's some guy, you know, dragging a guy on a. On a leash in a thong. I'm like, just. You know what I mean? It's like, that doesn't really go together. So it just gives the right ammunition to look at us as, you know, whatever deviants, I think, is what a lot of far right people think we are.
• 37:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, that is such a good point. And again, if you are listening and we're watching and you have not actually been to a Pride event or celebration and all you see is what you see on, let's say, Instagram or tv, please do actually go for yourself and check it out, because I promise you, it's very, very different than maybe what you're seeing. That's very sensationalized in the media, obviously, because that's what the media is supposed to do. Yeah, good point, man. Reno, what about you? Do we still need pride in 2025?
• 37:55
  Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And beyond. Yeah. I wrote a few things down, and I love some of the points we're touching on here. So we are here. We exist. We're not going anywhere. Right. And so I think as long as our human rights are conditional and there are people fighting to remove them or they are in question, there's a need for. For this work, for this advocacy and for this celebration. You know, the celebration. Because we exist. You know, because we exist and we are worth celebrating, all of us, every one of us. No matter your sexual orientation, you know, you are worth celebrating. You are deserving of love. Right. Regardless. And then. Yeah, the advocacy piece. Absolutely. You know, because as we know, this is ongoing. Right. I want to speak to, like, it is part of nature to create balance and move toward harmony. And I think that pride is an expression of that nature. You know, as I see it, I really feel that it is necessary. Like, when we look into the world right now, for example, and throughout time, you can see these imbalances, they're explicit. We might try to ignore them or disregard them. But, you know, when we speak of privilege, when we speak of hierarchy. When we speak of all these things, that language, that conversation exists because there's an acknowledgment and a recognition that there are imbalances. And so it is celebrations and movements like Pride that are an expression of nature to create that balance and to move us in the direction of harmony. And as far as Pride itself, I mean, we've said this already, but I think, Matt, I love what you said about, like, bringing depth to Pride. I really do feel like Pride needs to be elevated and deepened. You know, elevating and deepening our activism and our expression, I think is really valuable at this point and really reflecting on, like, what. What does that look like? You know? And as I said earlier, Pride is a celebration of you and, like, all of us. You know, it's like, listen, if. If you're listening to this or, you know, you catch wind of our beloved podcast and you're not under the LGBTQ umbrella, like, we still celebrate you. Come celebrate you with us. Come, let us celebrate you too. You know, like, we're not leaving you out. I think that I would love to see Pride be a celebration of you, you know, and bring all of you to the table, because guess what? That's what we're up to here. We're saying, hey, like, all of you is welcomed. We celebrate all of you. Why wouldn't you want to celebrate all of you with us? You know, so. And then I think lastly. Yeah. An elevated approach to sexual education. I don't know what that looks like, but I do agree. I do agree. You know, pick and choose our battles. Right. It's, like, cool that stuff. Do that wherever you need to do it. And listen, I may get flack for that, but. But I do agree. I think there's a way of approaching it, you know, And I. I don't know if that's it, but I also get that with all the pushback, we kind of went, okay, cool. I'm not sorry. It's human nature. Let me slap on the leather and the cuffs and the leash and all the stuff and really, you know, push back. Right. Okay, now we're there. Let's, like, find a sweet spot, you know? Yeah.
• 41:42
  Speaker A: So well said. Amazing. Raina, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit, because you're good on the spot.
• 41:46
  Speaker C: Sure.
• 41:47
  Speaker A: If there was. You kind of said it earlier. If there was, like, a Reno Johnston trademark Pride event, every Pride, what would that be?
• 41:55
  Speaker C: Oh, gosh. Yeah. I love this question. Well, there's so many layers to this, but I Would say, I think the most important piece is that it would be so inclusive. Like, it would be so inclusive, you know, maybe radically so. And then I think the second piece is that we would start sober, not drunk. And I don't mean that just in the sense of substance. I mean, when we first congregate, when we first come together, Right. When we first commune, it's like I want to create an experience that just like I work with the body Electric school. One of the things that's so beautiful about being in those spaces is that like all that internal BS just falls away and you're suddenly in love with everyone in the room. Right. That's the experience that I would seek to create initially. Right. We'd start there and then from there, the weekend's events or the week's events would arise from and carry and hold like that frequency all the way through, you know, every conversation, every interaction, every experience, event, every offshoot. Right. Would come from that.
• 43:16
  Speaker A: Love it. I would go to that. I think a lot of listeners and viewers would.
• 43:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, count me in.
• 43:22
  Speaker A: Matt, what about you? What's the Matt Lansdell trademark Pride event, if you could have one.
• 43:26
  Speaker B: Was this just one event or is this a week?
• 43:28
  Speaker A: Let's just do it. Let's do an event. Like the. The one thing. If you could pick one, try and.
• 43:33
  Speaker B: Guess, I think you could be able.
• 43:34
  Speaker A: To guess what I would totally guess. A mountain hike.
• 43:37
  Speaker C: Yeah, I love that.
• 43:39
  Speaker B: A group, like a get together. We'd have like maybe like a little circle where we just kind of, you know, like whatever. A heart centered circle for an hour. And then we go up the mountain. Maybe do like a cold plunge at the top and a nude cold plunge at the top. Yeah. We could plant a pride flag at the top and then go for a nice meal after and. Yeah, that's like my perfect day anyway. Yeah.
• 44:05
  Speaker A: Yeah, I figured this much.
• 44:06
  Speaker C: What about you, Michael?
• 44:07
  Speaker A: I don't know.
• 44:07
  Speaker C: I didn't.
• 44:08
  Speaker A: I didn't think about it. For me, probably I would start. I think I'd have to start with a why, you guys know why is really important to me in anything I do. So, like, why are we here?
• 44:17
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 44:18
  Speaker A: Like, let's just remember why we're all here. Maybe a little history lesson to remind us exactly what Reno had said. That the rights we have are conditional. We can't forget that. And then in terms of an event, I would probably say for me, I'm thinking about Toronto. Like something at the beach. It's a clothing optional beach, so you can be naked if you want. You don't have to. You can wear whatever you want. But, yeah, it would probably be something along the lines of sun, fun, nature. For sure. For sure, for sure. That has to be part of it for me. And, like, the idea of maybe, like, a fire afterwards, like a campfire kind of thing where we're kind of sitting around and, like, under the stars. That'd be very nice. That'd be very, very nice for me. Yeah, I'd love that.
• 44:56
  Speaker C: I love this, you guys, both of your ideas, if you're listening and you're on, like, some pride committee or really feel like there's something here, it's like, oh, we're reimagining pride right now.
• 45:08
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 45:08
  Speaker C: You know, the future of pride, and I think that that's so beautiful. And if someone's listening and they're like, hey, we need to put you in touch with so and so. Do it. Yeah.
• 45:18
  Speaker A: Love it. We're all here. We're all here and ready.
• 45:21
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 45:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. I think. I think for me, I'd love to see. To answer the question, I would. Yes, pride is 100% necessary in 2025, but I would love to see it go back to. I want to see. Go back to its roots, but I don't want to have to go back to our roots and have our rights taken away. Can we go back to our roots without our rights being taken away? That's kind of what I want. Yes. I want the party. I love the party, But I want us to remember why. Again, go back to the why. Why are we partying? Why are we here? Why are we out loud and being big and visible and marching down the street? What is the reason for that? I think we've come a long way. I think we've come so far. And this is our generation and definitely the generations after us, but not everyone. We've just forgotten. We've forgotten the fight because we have not had to. And that's the definition of privilege right there. We have not had to fight. And so I think we have lost it again. It's understandable if we haven't had to deal with it. And I don't want to lose those rights. I want to make that very clear. But I also really want to emphasize how important it is to know that we have them and that we are very lucky and fortunate where we live in the world, who we are, and all these things that we can't, because there's. Even today, in 2025, people are being murdered for who they are. And again, like, we have to remember that those people and those that came before us that are long gone, we're standing on their shoulders. And so if we're going to party, we should party for them, too, right? As a. As a thank you.
• 46:41
  Speaker C: Yeah. And if I could say one more thing to add to that, I would say one. Another reason we still need pride is because. Listen, I could go on a whole tangent, but I won't. Indigenous history, black history, LGBTQ history, not taught in schools. Right. So there are kids that are coming up. There are people that are coming up that don't even know. Right. That whole happening. It is. Is, in my opinion, exactly why we need this work and this advocacy is because. Yeah. Like, what do you see normally? What are you taught normally? Who dictates all of that? Right. It's like, yeah, we need this.
• 47:25
  Speaker A: You know, there are so many people out there that don't know who Marsha P. Johnson is, or they don't know who Harry Milk is, or they don't even know where the rainbow flag came from. Or, like, like I said in the beginning, like, we weren't called the LGBTQ community in 1969. We didn't have a little rainbow flag. That was not what was going on at all, guys. But there's so many people who just don't know that, so I agree. We really need to. And again, even that part, right. Like, Reno had said that. I'm not even talking like that. That's a bit of a whitewashed history if you think about it. Right. There's a whole other side of it as well that we don't know. Like, I don't even really know too much about the indigenous community and the history there. There's a lot there. But we just have so much to learn. And as someone who's very deeply curious and always wanting to know this stuff, I. I just. And when I do go down these rabbit holes, I learn so much, and I understand so much more about other people, and I become so much more empathetic and understanding towards others, and then that love just ends up becoming so much more easy to give when I understand their fight or their suffering or their plight or their history.
• 48:18
  Speaker C: Totally. Well said, Michael.
• 48:20
  Speaker A: All right, guys, we'll wrap it up there. Any last words?
• 48:23
  Speaker C: We love you.
• 48:24
  Speaker A: Yes. Everyone, we're here.
• 48:26
  Speaker C: We're queer. Get used to it.
• 48:30
  Speaker A: All right, thank you. And thank you, Matt and Reno, for joining on today's episode. Thank you to our listeners and viewers for sticking with us. Remember, guys, this podcast is supported by viewers and listeners like you so please do make a donation if you enjoyed today's episode and if you're on YouTube, it's really easy. You just got to tap that thanks button to show us some love. Also, you can subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts to get early access where you can get ad free listening and get access to episodes about three weeks before they are released to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community, so we thank you in advance. Happy Pride everyone. We'll see you at the next event.
• 49:13
  Speaker C: Sam.