Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / How to Capture Your Share of Non-QM Loans

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How to Capture Your Share of Non-QM Loans · Mortgage Marketing Radio

• 0:00
  In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
• 0:04
  the real estate agents is essential for success.
• 0:06
  However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge.
• 0:11
  With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it
• 0:15
  can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections.
• 0:20
  Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read.
• 0:25
  Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals.
• 0:31
  And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships
• 0:34
  with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business.
• 0:39
  To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy
• 0:45
  of the case study today.
• 0:47
  You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million
• 0:52
  in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can too.
• 0:56
  Don't miss out.
• 0:57
  Go check it out right now.
• 0:58
  Visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today.
• 1:03
  Hey listeners, what's up Jeff Zimper, your host for the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast.
• 1:08
  Thanks for tuning in.
• 1:09
  I appreciate you so much listening.
• 1:11
  Hey, question for you.
• 1:13
  Do you ever ask yourself, how can you stand out, how can you rise above the noise, how can
• 1:18
  you differentiate yourself amongst the sea of sameness with loan officers?
• 1:22
  Well on this episode, we're going to talk about how you can differentiate yourself with
• 1:26
  non-QM loans and we get started in just a moment.
• 1:32
  Hey, so welcome back and we are about to get into this week's episode.
• 1:40
  Before I do, of course, friendly reminder, make sure you check us out in the private
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  That's where you'll find our private group, Mortgage stuff going on over there, live streaming,
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  Q&A, special guests, hot seats and things like that.
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  So go check that out over there as well.
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  And if you've got a pressing question, as some of you have presented me your questions
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  thus far and I've been answering them, this is what you can do in the show notes here
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  or wherever you're listening to this podcast, right, there's a little section down below
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  the player button where you should see links to all the assets or resources we feature
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  And one of those is a link to a website which is called Ask Me Anything and that's you
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  just tap that link and then you'll be able to go tap your phone, leave me a voice question
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  just like Grant did, Kevin did, Natalia did, Pablo did and others are doing right now because
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  winner per month, a swag box, t-shirt, stickers, all kinds of cool stuff, private coaching
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  call with me.
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  So what's your question?
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  What's your frustration?
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  What's the one question you've always wanted to ask about digital marketing going after
• 3:01
  realtors, diversifying yourself, being a successful mortgage originator, what is it?
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  Or maybe it's the question about Beatles versus the Stones, I don't know, just trying to
• 3:13
  keep it light here.
• 3:14
  So you want to go to AskGFanything.com, check the link here in the show notes as well.
• 3:19
  Okay, so listen guys, I don't have to tell you that everything's shifted in the world,
• 3:25
  post COVID, there's a lot of things that are happening that are going to change up the
• 3:31
  requirements on us as mortgage professionals if we want to be seen different, right?
• 3:36
  If we want to not be stuck in the box of a commodity and have a price conversation versus
• 3:42
  advice conversation.
• 3:43
  And I used to say that the differentiators of price and programs really weren't that
• 3:50
  competitive, especially since everybody's settled on conventional, non-conventional,
• 3:55
  we got FHA, we got VA and those types of things and really what hasn't been much else
• 3:59
  other than that.
• 4:00
  But of course, now what's happening is the growth or resurgence of non-QM loans.
• 4:06
  When you talk about self-employed people, when you talk about people, high net worth people
• 4:10
  with complex financial structures, in corporations and things like that, that's why I'm really
• 4:16
  thrilled to bring to you my guest today.
• 4:18
  We're going to talk about non-QM loans, we're talking about John Dussman.
• 4:25
  John is down in San Diego, California with Axos Bank, he is the senior vice president
• 4:30
  and head of mortgage banking and we take you through what is this non-QM lending all
• 4:37
  about and how can it apply to you?
• 4:41
  What's cool is a few minutes into this episode, we get into some actual real loan scenarios
• 4:46
  where you're going to hear use cases of leveraging non-QM loans to be able to get deals
• 4:54
  done where a lot of other people probably couldn't get them done.
• 4:58
  So I think that'll be an interesting exercise for you to just listen through and then start
• 5:01
  to ask yourself, hey, does your company currently provide access to non-QM lending?
• 5:06
  Maybe you do in-house, maybe you have a correspondent already set up with Axos or someone else,
• 5:11
  maybe you're a broker and have a relationship or maybe you don't.
• 5:14
  If not, then go ahead and reach out to John and the team over there at Axos because they've
• 5:18
  got some incredible programs in place to help you succeed as a mortgage originator.
• 5:23
  The question you always want to be asking yourself is who do you serve and what problems
• 5:27
  do you solve?
• 5:28
  And today we're serving the non-QM community, typically self-employed investors, people
• 5:33
  like that.
• 5:35
  And the problem we're solving is how do we get them financing in a non-traditional way that
• 5:41
  still is cost-effective and reasonable for them?
• 5:46
  So without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
• 5:50
  John Dussman, welcome to the show.
• 5:52
  Thank you, Jeff.
• 5:53
  Thank you for having me.
• 5:54
  It's great to be here.
• 5:55
  I'm a big fan of your show and honored to be here.
• 5:58
  It is always an honor to spend time with other folks in the industry because I think why
• 6:03
  we're doing this today is we need to bring this message of non-QM to our listeners into
• 6:09
  the marketplace and we're going to talk about this.
• 6:11
  So before we get into that, why don't for the listeners just a brief backgrounder on
• 6:15
  you, who you are, what do you do?
• 6:17
  Yeah.
• 6:18
  This is John Dussman.
• 6:19
  I'm the senior vice president, head of mortgage banking here for Axos Bank.
• 6:23
  I've been in the industry started as a loan originator myself back in 2004 and have been
• 6:29
  in various roles in origination and marketing, leading sales through this journey.
• 6:37
  And right now I'm really excited about what we have in non-QM and how it can really help
• 6:43
  loan originators do more in this market and grow and evolve.
• 6:47
  And so I'm really excited to share some of my thoughts.
• 6:50
  I've gotten a lot of great feedback and a lot of really good gifts and ideas from listening
• 6:56
  to this show.
• 6:57
  So I'm excited to get back a little bit today.
• 7:00
  Oh, thanks, man.
• 7:01
  As a matter of fact, I just remembered it.
• 7:02
  So you started in 2004.
• 7:03
  I was 2003.
• 7:04
  If I recall, didn't we both work for Countrywide for a minute?
• 7:07
  We did.
• 7:08
  We did, yeah.
• 7:09
  Yeah.
• 7:10
  That's right memories.
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  For those listening, some people are like, what was Countrywide?
• 7:14
  Well, you missed the glory days.
• 7:17
  Yes, indeed.
• 7:19
  So you're in San Diego when I was in Orange County, so quite similar markets there in terms
• 7:24
  of competitiveness and loan size.
• 7:27
  What did we have, by the way, back then, I guess, how would you describe non-QM back
• 7:31
  then?
• 7:32
  What did we have?
• 7:34
  Well, there was a lot more of kind of the alt or lower documentation.
• 7:41
  And so that's one of the things that's important to point out in today's world is it's certainly
• 7:46
  not a repeat of the past.
• 7:49
  Back then, there were some different things that some would say and should have been there.
• 7:54
  And so in this world, it's a lot different.
• 7:57
  The credit qualities are a lot better.
• 7:59
  However, it's still a different way of underwriting and a different way of viewing the eligibility
• 8:05
  for the loan.
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  And that's what I love the most about this.
• 8:07
  It's a puzzle.
• 8:08
  It's not just the, does it fit in a box or does it not fit in a box?
• 8:12
  It's a, you know, let's put this puzzle together.
• 8:15
  Let's solve a problem and figure out how we can best serve this client.
• 8:19
  That's what, that's the part I really love.
• 8:20
  Well, let's do this.
• 8:21
  I don't want to forget.
• 8:22
  We've got a whole different range of types of people that listen to this, experience
• 8:25
  people, but then new people as well.
• 8:27
  So for their benefit, if you wouldn't mind define non-QM, what we're talking about.
• 8:33
  Yeah, non-QM is basically a non-qualified mortgage.
• 8:37
  It is originated against, you know, within different standards and underwriting guidelines
• 8:44
  that, you know, private lenders or portfolio lenders can use to originate the loan.
• 8:52
  And in our case, we hold these loans on our ballot sheet at Axos.
• 8:57
  There are some investors that purchase non-QM loans and some different takeout options
• 9:01
  for those.
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  But we actually hold these on our portfolio.
• 9:05
  We started in non-QM back in 2010.
• 9:09
  So shortly after the, you know, the big financial crisis and those times for those of you who
• 9:15
  were originating then, it was primarily, you know, can you do a Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac
• 9:20
  or FHA VA loan.
• 9:22
  Jumbo was really off the table.
• 9:24
  And so some of us started getting back into it.
• 9:27
  At that point, it was Bank of Internet or BFI Federal Bank had started their non-QM wholesale
• 9:33
  lending program.
• 9:34
  And it's been a very successful program, high quality, great results.
• 9:38
  And we're absolutely thrilled with it.
• 9:40
  So we've got 12 years of experience in this and the performances is great.
• 9:44
  And we're continuing to innovate and disrupt, as you say, in this business and keep getting
• 9:50
  better.
• 9:51
  Yeah.
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  So that's a good transition.
• 9:53
  Let's talk about that disrupting.
• 9:54
  So here we are.
• 9:55
  We're coming out of one of, if not the greatest RE5 period we've had ever in the industry,
• 10:00
  if not in the last right decade or whatever, who's counting, but we know it was a great
• 10:05
  RE5 ride.
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  And of course, now we're shifting back to a more purchased market.
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  The other thing that's happening, and of course, now we're coming out of COVID as well.
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  And just societally, what's happening is this, you know, I've heard referred to an outbar
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  of the phrase, this gig economy, you know, at 10.99 consultants, independent contractors,
• 10:24
  you know, people, the less traditional sources of income.
• 10:30
  And that's really who QM ultimately is serving, or not QM is ultimately serving, right?
• 10:35
  Right.
• 10:36
  Exactly.
• 10:37
  So it's the makes sense loans where otherwise maybe it doesn't meet some of the criteria
• 10:43
  just by a little bit to fit in the box of a standard traditional underwrite.
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  So yeah, a lot of self-employed borrowers can really benefit.
• 10:52
  Yeah.
• 10:53
  Can I clarify it as that?
• 10:54
  You just said non-standard underwrite.
• 10:55
  I mean, can you just say, okay, anything that's non-standard underwrite, like no do
• 10:59
  you know LP?
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  Like that?
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  Yeah.
• 11:02
  Yeah.
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  That's a good way to think about it.
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  So it goes back to the manual underwrite days.
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  So you don't have a DU pointing, you know, the roadmap for how to make the loan work.
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  You have to really manual underwrite it and dig in and look at the details and go from
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  there.
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  There's no system or computer program is saying, get this, this and that.
• 11:20
  Okay.
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  So besides self-employed, who else would this apply to?
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  So there's a lot of investors, real estate investors that are benefiting and finding non-cum loans
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  to be very popular right now.
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  We've actually got a really strong program and others have started doing some programs
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  that's called a DSCR loan.
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  So ultimately what that is is debt service coverage ratio.
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  And so as an investor buying another property or refinancing a investment property, the qualifications
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  are based on the property and the cash flow of the property versus ultimately, you know,
• 11:57
  the underwriting of the income of the borrower.
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  So it's great alternative to get a loan a little bit easier if you're a real estate investor.
• 12:05
  Without as much hassle, that's probably the best way to say it is it's a qualified property
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  and you don't have to submit, you know, hundreds of pages of tax returns because you're
• 12:15
  complicated.
• 12:16
  Kind of like commercial.
• 12:18
  Right?
• 12:19
  Because commercial is written based on the performance of the property and everything.
• 12:23
  Yeah.
• 12:24
  It's a business purpose element to it for that regard.
• 12:28
  Another interesting one on non-cum is someone who let's say they have significant assets.
• 12:35
  So there's great ability to repay based on assets.
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  So the stocks, it could be savings accounts could be even crypto in some cases where the
• 12:47
  assets can be used as basically the ability to repay on a depletion basis.
• 12:53
  So that's a big unique opportunity for folks who are looking to leverage and get into
• 12:58
  property.
• 12:59
  Wait a second.
• 13:00
  Come on, man.
• 13:01
  Are we getting there already?
• 13:02
  We're looking at crypto now.
• 13:03
  It's not a case by case basis, but there's some interesting stuff.
• 13:08
  Wow, that could be a whole different session of itself.
• 13:11
  Yeah, talking about disrupts, huh?
• 13:13
  Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.
• 13:15
  So the investor thing is very interesting because I do remember the days of doing some
• 13:19
  loans for investors.
• 13:20
  And yeah, it becomes challenging when you're an investor and you own 10 properties, right?
• 13:24
  And they're looking at the traditional version of that, you know, you being able to support
• 13:28
  that based on income and so on, et cetera, instead of the actual property itself.
• 13:32
  Right.
• 13:33
  Right.
• 13:34
  Okay.
• 13:35
  So what else?
• 13:36
  I want to make sure we cover like who is a, you know, you were put your loan officer
• 13:40
  had on.
• 13:41
  Let's do this.
• 13:42
  You got this non-QM loan, you know, forget about the FHA, the traditional quote, paper
• 13:46
  stuff.
• 13:47
  Does anybody say a paper anymore?
• 13:48
  I don't know.
• 13:49
  I still do.
• 13:50
  So I do.
• 13:51
  It might be an old school thing, but I do.
• 13:53
  But yeah.
• 13:54
  You know, we know those high quality borrowers and stuff.
• 13:57
  If you were a loan officer, how would you be looking to take, you know, this bucket, if
• 14:03
  you will, this tool chest of non-QM loans out into the market, what would you be doing
• 14:08
  to go find these loans?
• 14:10
  Yeah.
• 14:11
  Great question.
• 14:12
  So the things that come to mind for me are, you know, first and foremost, you mentioned
• 14:17
  the gig economy, the, you know, different types of qualifications.
• 14:20
  Now, finding those people, obviously, it's not, not necessarily easy.
• 14:24
  Obviously, word of mouth is great, referral partners is a great source for helping, you
• 14:30
  know, make sure that you're real to partners, your referral sources know that you've got
• 14:34
  a product that can help them close more loans and can help qualify more borrowers.
• 14:40
  The other side of it is thinking about, you know, housing prices have gone up tremendously.
• 14:45
  Obviously, conforming loan amounts have gone up as well.
• 14:48
  But there's a lot of areas that require financing above what the conforming limit is, you know,
• 14:53
  here in San Diego, a lot of Southern California, most California in general, you know, even though
• 14:57
  the conforming limit is high, a lot of borrowers are going into the jumbo space, jumbo prime
• 15:03
  jumbo, for example, can be very, very tedious.
• 15:06
  So it's great for, you know, potentially W2D, very, you know, down the middle wage earners,
• 15:13
  but outside of that, you know, you really have to go to the non-QM site.
• 15:16
  So I would think about it as an LO of how can I make sure I'm positioned in the right
• 15:21
  way for maybe some of the higher, higher wealth, higher income individuals that I might be
• 15:28
  missing out on right now.
• 15:30
  And whether that's through talking to your partners and determining, you know, buyers
• 15:35
  that they may have that we're trying to get a home and got a turn down.
• 15:40
  That's another way you can, you can come in and try to talk through non-QM, see if there's
• 15:43
  an option there and where your hero, your agent loves you at that point, or other sources
• 15:48
  where you can just get into those areas where there's higher, higher loan amounts, higher purchase
• 15:54
  prices, and more than that jumbo space, it doesn't fit the prime jumbo.
• 15:59
  Yeah, I'm looking at your document that you provided with some examples in here.
• 16:05
  And it's making me think, you know, back to this question that I got from somebody which
• 16:11
  was other than real estate agents, what niches would you go after?
• 16:14
  And my answer to him was, you know, self-employed, gig economy type stuff.
• 16:20
  And it made me think now when looking at some of these scenarios, is this a specialty
• 16:25
  you think that's worthy of, and it's going to sound like a softball question for the listeners.
• 16:31
  But I mean, you know, that you should, does it make sense to develop a brand and a marketing
• 16:37
  messaging and all that kind of stuff around this?
• 16:40
  Yes, I think it absolutely does.
• 16:43
  In a way, obviously, that you're not using the jargon, you know, non-QM, nobody wants
• 16:47
  to hear that.
• 16:48
  Yeah, what does that mean?
• 16:49
  Yeah, right.
• 16:50
  But it's more of the, you know, if there's a borrower who could not get the property for
• 16:56
  such and such reasons, but they otherwise have great quality, great credit quality, great
• 17:00
  income, but they're just a little unique, then that's a great way to market.
• 17:05
  So a lot of our account executives talk through when they're calling out to loan officers
• 17:11
  and originators, you know, talk, let's talk about the last turn down you had.
• 17:15
  How was that?
• 17:16
  What happened?
• 17:17
  What are the scenarios?
• 17:18
  It's a good way of thinking about it.
• 17:20
  And then just again, that whole higher end side of things and doing more with different
• 17:26
  solutions.
• 17:27
  So in some of our examples, maybe, maybe the loan won't work with certain elements,
• 17:34
  but the borrower, let's say, has another property that's paid off free and clear, potentially
• 17:39
  we could cross collateralize the other property, and then all of a sudden we have a deal.
• 17:42
  Makes sense.
• 17:43
  It's a great deal at that point.
• 17:45
  And then lastly, the other audience to think about beyond realtor partners is financial
• 17:50
  advisors.
• 17:51
  There's a great opportunity there.
• 17:54
  We also allow for pledge of equities.
• 17:57
  So advisors love that because there's not as much liquidation that could be required if
• 18:03
  someone decides they want to pledge some stock to lever up on the loan.
• 18:07
  That's a great way for the advisor to continue serving that relationship, while the buyers
• 18:12
  also satisfying their needs with their mortgage or buying a home.
• 18:16
  So I'm reading through some of these examples, and I don't know if you want to make this
• 18:19
  available to anybody, but okay, so we can put a PDF link or something into that PDF.
• 18:25
  I think what's very illustrative is, as I read through some of these examples, let me
• 18:29
  do a screen share so you and I are on the same page, is again, we're talking about disrupting
• 18:35
  personal brand and things like that, like I'm looking at what I was thinking of as a
• 18:39
  couple of different niches here, like you had already mentioned, one or two, which is
• 18:42
  the investor niche.
• 18:43
  So if I scroll back up to this one right here, which is the DC DSCR, what does that say?
• 18:49
  Right, debt service coverage ratio, so that's where qualifying them based on the property
• 18:54
  only, cash along the property.
• 18:55
  Yeah, so this is a 1.4 million loan amount, single family resident 52% LTV, four and three
• 19:01
  quarters and a 5.1 interest only arm with 100% cash out, explain that to me.
• 19:06
  So yep, basically we qualified based on the asset, cash on the asset, and then to lever
• 19:14
  up on the cash out was a cross collateralization loan.
• 19:20
  So basically our net LTV at the end was 55, but it allows for the higher leverage on the
• 19:27
  property to recapture for the cash they put into by the property.
• 19:31
  So made sense in that situation.
• 19:33
  You know what's interesting, too, is I realized I just completely put you on the spot, not
• 19:36
  even knowing.
• 19:37
  Oh, good.
• 19:38
  Oh, good.
• 19:39
  I know my loans.
• 19:41
  Fortunately.
• 19:42
  Right.
• 19:43
  All right.
• 19:44
  So let me scroll to the other thing that hit me, because again, I'm thinking about like,
• 19:47
  how do I stand out and rise above the noise?
• 19:49
  And I look at stuff like this right here.
• 19:51
  This is a residential property, right?
• 19:54
  Yep.
• 19:55
  Correct.
• 19:56
  Another purchase price, 12.6 on the loan, non-owner, non-owner,ock, 90% LTV, 55%, explain
• 20:05
  that to me.
• 20:06
  Do we got two LTV?
• 20:07
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:08
  So this is an example where we pledged securities.
• 20:11
  So this buyer used some stock that they had and pledged up.
• 20:16
  So our ultimately the amount that they came in for the purchase was 10% down.
• 20:22
  And in lieu of the additional loan amount that otherwise they'd be required to down payment,
• 20:29
  they'd otherwise be required to put down, they pledged their stock.
• 20:32
  So yeah.
• 20:33
  Tempted them down to get to the 90LTV, and then the equity portion that they pledged ultimately
• 20:39
  covers from the 90 down to the 55.
• 20:42
  So avoid a liquidation event of the stock, defer potential capital gains, and also get
• 20:49
  home.
• 20:50
  So it's a win-win.
• 20:51
  Is that a stock that was well-known and was kind of a sure bet?
• 20:55
  Yeah.
• 20:56
  Yeah.
• 20:57
  When we pledged, typically it's on the larger, pretty higher volume exchanged stocks.
• 21:04
  It's not a penny stock or anything like that, but it makes sense.
• 21:09
  Yeah.
• 21:10
  All right.
• 21:11
  Now here's another one.
• 21:12
  I'm going to full circle on this one.
• 21:13
  We're done looking at some of these examples.
• 21:14
  Newport Coast, which is Newport Beach, California, 16 mil purchase price, 12.8 loan
• 21:19
  amount owner, Ock, 3.2 million cash pledge.
• 21:23
  Was that a stock pledge as well?
• 21:25
  Yeah, it was a stock pledge as well, 12 month bank statement qualifying.
• 21:30
  Yeah.
• 21:31
  So this is where it's a self-employed example where they use their bank statements to show
• 21:40
  their qualifying income versus providing tax returns as a self-employed borrower.
• 21:45
  And so this particular borrower used a couple of flavors of the beauty of non-QM to help
• 21:54
  for qualifying is they wanted to pledge the assets to get a higher effective loan to
• 21:58
  value.
• 21:59
  And then two, submitted bank statements is an easier path of documentation to meet the
• 22:05
  underwriting requirements.
• 22:06
  Right.
• 22:07
  Right.
• 22:08
  What, anything to be aware of when you're doing a deal that's unique like this, it's
• 22:12
  manual underwriting.
• 22:13
  Are we talking about delayed turn times on approvals, et cetera?
• 22:19
  That's a great question.
• 22:20
  So it's a little bit slower than the, you know, you would think, I mean, the surgery is
• 22:27
  a little bit harder than fixing a toe.
• 22:31
  Yeah.
• 22:32
  And I see both sides as, you know, I'm involved in some agency work today too and that's an
• 22:37
  area where we've built our business on how fast can we get it, how automated can we
• 22:42
  get it and use as much, you know, digital underwriting as possible.
• 22:46
  And so you see that side where it's pretty quick.
• 22:48
  And then on the portfolio side, you know, it does take a little bit longer.
• 22:52
  But it's nothing to where it's, you know, not sitting and waiting around forever.
• 22:56
  We have to be competitive.
• 22:57
  And even in this market, you have to be able to move fast even on these big loans.
• 23:02
  So a 45 day closing is something absolutely within our means and something we can do.
• 23:08
  We can close fast around a purchase if we have to.
• 23:10
  If it's, you know, we've got to be, we've got to move quick to get this done.
• 23:14
  We're going to move mountains to underwrite and get that done.
• 23:17
  But it's not just the super high end properties like the examples, right?
• 23:21
  No, it's not.
• 23:22
  We, we end up getting, you know, some of those just based on, you know, where we are,
• 23:28
  where some of our partners are.
• 23:29
  But, you know, non-GM as a whole, our product set our loan amounts range from 510 is our
• 23:36
  minimum.
• 23:37
  And our, our max is 30 million, we can go higher by kind of exception basis.
• 23:41
  But it's not all just the, the big, big high end ones, it's, it can be more of a standardized
• 23:47
  type of, of loan amount.
• 23:49
  Well, it's interesting you said financial advisors because I'm thinking in those examples of this,
• 23:56
  you know, the high end ones, obviously, we're talking about playing at a different level.
• 23:59
  And when I think about when I see those examples, what runs through my head sometimes is what?
• 24:04
  This goes back to the original question, somebody asked me about differentiation or what
• 24:07
  other niches would you pursue.
• 24:10
  And another one I often bring up is the divorce niche.
• 24:13
  And I think, especially moving forward, we, you know, we talk about disruption, we talk
• 24:17
  about FinTech and all the stuff that's, all the noise that's happening over there, you
• 24:20
  know, with what's going to happen with blockchain or whatever, who knows.
• 24:23
  Yeah.
• 24:24
  But the point is it's like, how do you have job security, right?
• 24:29
  Solve problems.
• 24:30
  And I always, I always talk about being a specialist versus a generalist.
• 24:33
  And I, you know, I've alluded to this example of brain surgery, but seriously, I mean,
• 24:37
  when you get into compensation, right, and you think about consultants, doctors, attorneys
• 24:42
  that are working on high end cases, complex cases, well, I mean, it only takes a couple
• 24:48
  three of those and then you're opened up into a whole world of people, as you know, they
• 24:52
  all hang around each other, network, you mentioned financial advisors.
• 24:58
  How would you, you got any coaching tips, man, like, how to get in there, like, and start
• 25:04
  to position yourself as one of these non-QM experts, you know?
• 25:07
  Well, I think part of it is, is one, once you get your first, that word travels fast.
• 25:16
  Everyone loves to, especially as you said, you know, there is such a tight knit group in
• 25:21
  some cases in these kind of networks of people who serve clients like this.
• 25:26
  As soon as you can get your shot at one and you do a good job on it, then more will
• 25:33
  come.
• 25:34
  That's the best way I would explain it.
• 25:35
  So, you know, it's like I'm envisioning, hey, join the country club, whatever it is.
• 25:40
  Yeah.
• 25:41
  Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
• 25:46
  I would say in today's knit world, you can find it in some different ways.
• 25:52
  You know, digital is a great way, getting into the right groups is a great way, networking.
• 25:59
  And even, I think I still go back to the realtor partners in certain locations.
• 26:04
  If you're running with the red agents, there can be a really good, you know, trickle-down
• 26:11
  that has some of the borrowers who are, you know, needing some of these non-QM loans.
• 26:15
  So I think that's a good place.
• 26:16
  Like, I look out here, you know, here I'm in Vegas and I see these high-end properties
• 26:19
  go for sale and stuff and, you know, I know, look, let's be honest listeners, some of
• 26:24
  you are reluctant to go after high-end agents and you know who they are in your community,
• 26:29
  right?
• 26:30
  Or these people that are striving to be a high-end agents, but there's these agents
• 26:32
  that people are reluctant to, chicken list, or they're so big or whatever.
• 26:37
  And they've got clients like, with the examples we just described here, I mean, depending
• 26:41
  on where you are in the country, there's always high-end markets, right, high-end buyers.
• 26:46
  And the people that are buying those typically, right, are the high-level CEOs, they're
• 26:50
  the self-employed, they're the, right, 1099ers, whatever, and they need specialized solutions.
• 26:56
  Which gets back to, by the way, you said digital, imagine just telling stories of how you
• 27:03
  were able, just scenarios.
• 27:06
  Like, hey, here's a scenario that was recently done or accomplished.
• 27:11
  It doesn't need to be your own.
• 27:12
  You could just be sharing this story.
• 27:14
  Hey, I want to tell you a story about, right, a client who is able to get into a property,
• 27:19
  non-traditional.
• 27:20
  Here's the breakdown.
• 27:21
  Boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 27:22
  I mean, we see you and I see a lot of law officers educating people on Instagram, et cetera,
• 27:27
  with financial investment and advice.
• 27:29
  Yeah.
• 27:30
  But we're not this, right?
• 27:32
  Absolutely.
• 27:33
  That's a great, great way to do it and great recommendation.
• 27:36
  And that's, I guess that's taking almost some of what we do in our playbook in terms
• 27:40
  of how we market to our loan officers and our originators of the case studies.
• 27:45
  The scenario is kind of show the magic and it's something that catches the attention.
• 27:49
  It's like, wow, that's really cool.
• 27:51
  I can't believe that that's a program that I could offer and I could do so much more
• 27:56
  business with that.
• 27:57
  That's great.
• 27:58
  So, I would say that's a really good way of going about it and there's so many different
• 28:02
  ways to attract consumers in today's day and age and targeting and different data that
• 28:09
  can help identify the right opportunities that maybe aren't quite so obvious.
• 28:15
  There's ways you can uncover that.
• 28:17
  Well, how does somebody get educated in this, in developing this knowledge around these
• 28:23
  different types of loans?
• 28:25
  So our account executives and the team that we have here at Axos, our main job is to educate
• 28:32
  our partners.
• 28:34
  So our LOs that are working with us, if the LO doesn't know how to sell the product
• 28:40
  and originate the product, then we aren't doing our job right because that's our job.
• 28:45
  We have to train.
• 28:46
  We have to make sure you understand the guidelines.
• 28:48
  What changed?
• 28:49
  How can you submit a loan that works this way?
• 28:52
  So we have scenario deaths that we can send loans through on your behalf.
• 28:57
  We've got all sorts of resources to answer questions.
• 29:01
  And then, again, our account executives who handle the day-to-day relationships with
• 29:05
  the LOs, they are experts.
• 29:07
  We have some of the best in the business that are really, really good at what they do.
• 29:12
  And they will help educate and train and make sure that the LOs equipped because the
• 29:19
  last thing the LO wants to do is go to one of these high-end clients or partners and
• 29:23
  say, I've got this great loan.
• 29:25
  It's going to absolutely work great and then they don't have all the answers or something
• 29:31
  goes off.
• 29:32
  That's obviously what we don't want.
• 29:34
  That's what they don't want.
• 29:35
  So it comes down to the education and we do a really good job of training and helping
• 29:40
  we do webinars.
• 29:41
  We have a lot of resources available.
• 29:42
  And then we're just a pretty hard-working crew where we make ourselves available.
• 29:46
  We have filled questions whenever so needs us.
• 29:49
  Yeah, the examples are pretty compelling, man.
• 29:52
  I'm looking at this one right here, and again, the problem with the examples we're sharing
• 29:56
  is people, I don't want them to get the impression that it's all this high-level stuff.
• 30:00
  However, when you're dealing with people who have money, wealthy people, their financial
• 30:08
  situation tends to be a little bit more complex, case in point being that's why you become
• 30:13
  a specialist, you become more valuable there.
• 30:16
  You tell me, John, you see it more than I do.
• 30:18
  When you're doing what we described here like this next one right here, let's go through
• 30:22
  it and then I'm going to ask you a question, all right?
• 30:24
  So Newport Beach, Corona Delmar, obviously kind of in Yoll's backyard, 11 million appraised
• 30:27
  values, 6.9 million loan amount, one I occupied, listed for sale, borrower pulled 2 million
• 30:34
  out for real estate acquisition.
• 30:36
  So what is that?
• 30:37
  Is that like a bridge loan or what?
• 30:38
  Yeah, that was a bridge loan.
• 30:39
  So, you know, in certain higher end homes take longer to get the right buyer in, obviously.
• 30:46
  And so this individual wanted to make a move on the next sale real quick and next property
• 30:51
  real quickly.
• 30:52
  So, we have a bridge product that ultimately it's a 12 month loan where property is listed
• 30:59
  and you can take cash out, we give you the cash out and go put it down on the next property.
• 31:04
  And ultimately when the departing resident sells, you pay off the loan with the proceeds.
• 31:10
  It's real simple in that regard.
• 31:12
  So it just creates the flexibility, frees up some of the cash flow so they aren't having
• 31:16
  to go liquid A and elsewhere or miss out on a property.
• 31:21
  And to your point, this is a very significant number on this one, but doesn't mean it has
• 31:27
  to be.
• 31:28
  It could be a lower loan amount.
• 31:29
  It could be more of a realistic and in today's day and age where it's so competitive in terms
• 31:33
  of getting an offer accepted, sometimes if you got cash in hand and you have a property
• 31:39
  that you could use as a bridge, get a bridge loan on it, that could make a break getting
• 31:43
  an offer accepted on a new property you're getting into.
• 31:47
  So it's rare that I get this deep on the show regarding loan guidelines and stuff like
• 31:50
  that.
• 31:51
  But I'm looking at them here, I'm reading your 1 to 4 unit program, up to 60% LTV, there's
• 31:57
  probably some exceptions to that, but what I notice here is a minimum 680 FICO.
• 32:02
  So that's, you know, I mean, hell, we're not asking for 740.
• 32:07
  Yeah, we certainly will, again, it's, that's the beauty of non-cure and we look at what
• 32:12
  makes sense.
• 32:13
  And so, you know, maybe there's a 680 FICO, but everything else is great and why wouldn't
• 32:19
  we do that?
• 32:20
  It's a great loan.
• 32:21
  So the question I was going to ask is when you're structuring like that example of the
• 32:24
  other ones we shared, do you think, are the people who are getting that loan, the recipients,
• 32:30
  are they just calling you going, hey, what's your price, man?
• 32:34
  What's your rate?
• 32:36
  Well, fortunately, our partners, you know, they handle most of the calls and they handle
• 32:44
  that.
• 32:45
  And our brand is great.
• 32:46
  I mean, that's, that's where if they were saying that, they'd say, wow, that's it.
• 32:50
  Cool.
• 32:51
  Let's do this.
• 32:52
  That's a nice plug for where you're coming from.
• 32:56
  However, as you know where I'm coming from is, again, right, if, if, you know, you need
• 33:00
  heart surgery or you have this unique complex structure to your financial situation, you're
• 33:04
  not going to be like, no, no, I think I'm going to shop this.
• 33:07
  Hold on.
• 33:08
  I'm going to get three different quotes because there aren't three different people that
• 33:11
  are showing up in your life that can do this.
• 33:13
  Right.
• 33:14
  That's what I'm saying.
• 33:15
  And, and a lot of the competition that we'd face on something like this would be a hard
• 33:18
  money lender, which, which, that pricing is not even in the same ballpark as what, what
• 33:23
  we're offering.
• 33:24
  So, it's a, and guys, guys and gals listening out there is, you know, wherever you can tell
• 33:31
  stories of unique structuring of, of the deal that, right, delivers the solution, whether
• 33:38
  it's a bridge loan, which, of course, is much needed in today's market or these other
• 33:41
  unique situations where you can tell the stories of, look, I had a high-end buy or I had
• 33:44
  a self-employed person or I had, I had this scenario, like oftentimes, I know I fall
• 33:50
  back on this too.
• 33:51
  It's like, oh, you know, greatly, great rates, loan programs, not real competitive advantage.
• 33:56
  Well, I'm starting to, to back away from that a little bit more, you know, not so much
• 34:00
  from the rate, but, because I don't want to have the rate conversation, but more for
• 34:03
  of the product solution.
• 34:05
  This is where I think non-QM does change the conversation, because everybody has FHA,
• 34:09
  VA.
• 34:10
  All right, great.
• 34:11
  That's not that huge of a differentiator.
• 34:12
  But this, right, that's something that's a differentiator.
• 34:15
  Totally great.
• 34:17
  This is what makes you different from more of the commoditized market, which, which that's
• 34:22
  the reality of what agency FHA and VA have become, and this is where you are special
• 34:27
  as an originator.
• 34:28
  You've got something that probably, you know, 90% of the competition doesn't have the
• 34:33
  product that you have with this.
• 34:34
  Yeah.
• 34:35
  Well, then now let's talk about how do loan officers take advantage of this, because as you
• 34:40
  know, the audience, my audience, either are retail liners, they're at brokers, so fill
• 34:46
  in that gap for me.
• 34:47
  Yeah.
• 34:48
  Great question.
• 34:49
  So brokers can anyone can come in and apply and become a seller, you know, seller to us.
• 34:55
  There's an application on our website for seller approval, pretty simple process.
• 35:00
  And ultimately brokers typically will work with us on a wholesale arrangement.
• 35:06
  And then larger companies, which we work with as well, we do have some, some pretty significant
• 35:12
  and large companies out there that work with us.
• 35:16
  We often work on a correspondent basis with the larger companies.
• 35:19
  So whoever's in running secondary marketing or maybe an executive would be responsible
• 35:24
  for basically coming up with the decision to work with Axos and offer our non-Coem products.
• 35:30
  And there's an application as well on our website for that.
• 35:33
  And it's the correspondent application.
• 35:35
  We do both.
• 35:36
  And we love love both sides of it and definitely encourage anyone who's interested to take
• 35:42
  a look.
• 35:43
  Yeah.
• 35:44
  Yeah.
• 35:45
  I mean, look, what I just shared with everybody today in this PDF, I've learned, you know,
• 35:49
  about loan structuring right here and some of the options that are out there.
• 35:53
  And so I think that's great.
• 35:54
  We'll put links in the show notes, AxosBank, AXOSBank.com.
• 35:58
  Also you wanted to give out dare I say if people want to contact you directly?
• 36:02
  Yeah.
• 36:03
  I'm open for it.
• 36:05
  I love it.
• 36:06
  So, you know, John Dussman is my name again, my email is jdustman at AxosBank.com.
• 36:13
  Okay.
• 36:14
  Great.
• 36:15
  Well, I'm on the radar for you guys in terms of products or things you're looking kind
• 36:18
  of around the corner or that would be interesting to share.
• 36:21
  Yeah.
• 36:22
  Well, first and foremost, we're one thing I'm really excited about beyond product is
• 36:27
  we're updating our tech stack.
• 36:28
  We're working on a big, big marketing technology platform that, you know, we're working
• 36:34
  on and developing.
• 36:35
  That'll make us much better for our partners, make our experience stronger.
• 36:39
  So those of you if you see the website, the website's about to go through a major upgrade
• 36:43
  and overhaul.
• 36:45
  Part of that includes some new tools and ways for our L.O. partners to better market,
• 36:52
  better understand our products and get more information easier.
• 36:57
  Time obviously is a key for everyone.
• 36:59
  And the last thing I want is for our value partners to be, you know, spending unnecessary
• 37:04
  time trying to find something.
• 37:05
  So that's a big thing on my agenda here is building out our tech stack stronger, building
• 37:11
  some new marketing tools that can help our partners help their clients understand what
• 37:16
  these products are.
• 37:17
  Obviously, they're complex, but there's a way that we can communicate what they are through
• 37:21
  examples and through really making it easy, consumer-friendly language.
• 37:26
  So that's a big one.
• 37:28
  And then the additional side of it is continuing to look at product opportunity as the market
• 37:33
  continues to change as we go through, you know, some of the unknowns that are going
• 37:39
  to be coming up in this year, we always want to be ahead of it.
• 37:42
  And so I spend a lot of time researching, spend a lot of time thinking about, you know,
• 37:47
  what's coming next and always want to be prepared for that.
• 37:50
  So just mainly product evolution and being a better partner to our partners is how can
• 37:55
  we help serve you better.
• 37:56
  So those are the big things for me.
• 37:58
  How many AEs do you guys have in the country?
• 38:02
  Well right now, it's another good question.
• 38:04
  Right now we got seven.
• 38:05
  We are hiring.
• 38:07
  I would say seven super producers, they're rock stars.
• 38:10
  They do an incredible job, but we are currently hiring and growing, but they carry big, big
• 38:19
  pipelines.
• 38:20
  That's good.
• 38:21
  No, I was just curious about more than anything else.
• 38:23
  That's awesome.
• 38:24
  All right.
• 38:25
  So, axosbank.com.
• 38:26
  You shared your email.
• 38:27
  Brokers can apply.
• 38:28
  You could do correspondent lending as well.
• 38:30
  So if you're listening and you're like, man, I want in on this non-QM thing and you don't
• 38:34
  currently have it.
• 38:35
  Well, now you know how to get in touch with John or the team and or bring it to your leadership
• 38:39
  at your current company, because I would venture to guess there's a varies based on the
• 38:45
  area.
• 38:46
  I was going to get, oh, there's two or three loans in your, I mean, there's lots of
• 38:49
  non-QM loan opportunities in your own backyard.
• 38:52
  Yeah.
• 38:53
  With as high as real estate prices are now, it's amazing how much more non-QM opportunity
• 38:57
  there is.
• 38:58
  Yeah.
• 38:59
  For sure.
• 39:00
  All right.
• 39:01
  John, listen, I know we're tied on time.
• 39:02
  So I'm going to close it out here.
• 39:03
  Thanks again for sharing your story.
• 39:04
  I'm very, you know, it's like I'm thinking, as I said earlier, God, if I was ever to get
• 39:07
  back in a lending, I would definitely be showing up, like telling these stories and being
• 39:11
  the specialist, right, for the self-employed, for the high end, high net worth person who
• 39:17
  needs a high level consultant, because then I don't have to deal with price in most
• 39:20
  cases.
• 39:21
  Yeah.
• 39:22
  Well, thank you, Jeff.
• 39:23
  I really appreciate it.
• 39:24
  This has been an awesome opportunity and appreciate the opportunity to get back to
• 39:27
  the show and all that lows out there.
• 39:30
  So thank you.
• 39:31
  You bet.
• 39:32
  Listeners, you know what to do if you like this episode.
• 39:33
  First of all, reach out to John if you want to learn more and then secondly, leave us a
• 39:36
  review.
• 39:37
  And we appreciate you guys tuning in and we'll see you on the next one.
• 39:40
  Bye for now.
• 39:41
  Hey, thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast.
• 39:44
  I hope you enjoyed it.
• 39:45
  And remember if you like this episode, please leave us a review that helps us reach more
• 39:50
  people and bring more good value and content to you, our listeners.
• 39:54
  And then don't forget, if you are a loan officer who wants more agent referrals in less
• 40:00
  time, be sure to check out the Mortgage Marketing Pro membership at mortgagemarketing.pro and
• 40:07
  learn more about our turnkey system of agent classes that puts you front and center of
• 40:12
  your local real estate agents, attracting agents instead of chasing them and getting agent
• 40:17
  referrals like clockwork every single month, just like Kerry Cobb, who her first year in
• 40:24
  the business with closing over 75 loans, achieved 40% of those 75 loans exclusively from
• 40:31
  agent classes.
• 40:32
  And if you want to learn how she did it and how you can do it too, once again, go to mortgage
• 40:35
  marketing.pro and I'll see you over there.
• 40:38
  Thanks for listening.
• 40:39
  Bye for now.
• 40:40
  Hey guys, what's up real quick?
• 40:48
  You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before and I just want to quickly
• 40:51
  remind you of that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased
• 40:56
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• 41:03
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• 41:05
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• 42:17
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