Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / The Truth About Relationships: What’s Confusing, Frustrating, and Totally Normal w/ Todd Baratz

Transcript

The Truth About Relationships: What’s Confusing, Frustrating, and Totally Normal w/ Todd Baratz · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm UASU.
0:03
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
0:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Love is messy, it's confusing, frustrating, and sometimes downright infuriating.
0:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's completely normal, even the healthiest of relationships push all of our buttons, because they touch the deepest parts of ourselves.
0:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Our insecurities, our needs, and the ways we've learned to connect, or avoid connection over time.
0:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It's easy to go to, well, I don't have these issues with anyone else in my life, maybe the relationship isn't right for me.
0:49
[SPEAKER_02]: But the truth is we all have cognitive biases that distort how we evaluate partners.
0:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Frustration and love just an automatically signal a mismatch.
1:00
[SPEAKER_02]: It can reveal areas for growth, awareness, and communication.
1:04
[SPEAKER_02]: The ups and downs of relationships are actually part of how humans are wired to navigate connection.
1:10
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're joined by Todd Beratz.
1:13
[SPEAKER_02]: They're a pissed author of how to love someone without losing your mind, and the mastermind behind a must follow Instagram account at your diagnosis, to give a raw unfiltered look at relationships.
1:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Todd explains why it's normal to lose your mind in love, why the behaviors that annoy us most about our partners often have a psychological explanation, and how to evaluate whether a relationship is truly servicue.
1:40
[SPEAKER_02]: He also reframes the classic question of should I stay or should I go into a framework that prioritizes self-awareness, relational intelligence, and growth.
1:50
[SPEAKER_02]: We dive into what it really takes to build connection without losing yourself.
1:55
[SPEAKER_02]: How to spot patterns that keep you stuck in ways to navigate the messiness of love so you can make more grounded intentional choices.
2:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether you're in a long-term partnership or not, this episode offers insights to help understand the why behind the challenges in relationships.
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen.
2:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And if this episode helped you see relationships in a new light, leave us a reading or review.
2:25
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up in love.
2:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Enjoy!
2:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I had a dollar for every time a friend forward me one of your post-hodd.
2:45
[SPEAKER_03]: I would be a fucking billionaire today.
2:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, God, I'm probably the most shared person in my friend circle.
2:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Really?
2:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
2:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Like a million times.
2:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so nice to hear.
2:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, your whole message is about just getting realistic about relationships.
3:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's why it resonates so much.
3:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I've definitely sent them to my partner being like, see, this is adorable.
3:08
[SPEAKER_02]: This is totally standard, right?
3:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And like for you it's like getting real for getting the fairy tale that's your whole thing like why do you think people's views on relationships are so misguided?
3:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to say they're misguided.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just say they're really anxious.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: The values that we have, the way we approach relationships and dating, is fueled by a lot of anxiety.
3:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And because of that, we will develop rules, have expectations, wishes and desires that are just like science fiction, futuristic, unrealistic.
3:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I really do think it all comes down to anxiety.
3:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Where culture comes in is that it gives us permission to have this anxiety and it describes the same anxiety almost as health.
3:51
[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of how we're told to look for a partner, to cultivate a relationship, what it should look like, what they should look like, who they should be, who we should be.
3:58
[SPEAKER_00]: all of these rules about what our relationships should look like, as again, anxiety.
4:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And so because of that, we're entering relationships with expectations about how we should be experiencing them.
4:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That is not how relationships work.
4:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, what's so relatable about your content is that you are very realistic about relationships.
4:17
[SPEAKER_03]: And also, you say the things that we've been all saying in our heads, but are too ashamed to say it out loud.
4:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I remember we had a post about
4:27
[SPEAKER_03]: It's okay to be really annoyed by your partner.
4:29
[SPEAKER_03]: All the things that we have in our heart.
4:31
[SPEAKER_00]: They hate them sometimes.
4:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's okay to hit your partner sometimes.
4:34
[SPEAKER_03]: But what is that balance?
4:37
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, how do we ride that line of being realistic, but also being hopeful in a dating?
4:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, how are you defining hope?
4:44
[SPEAKER_03]: How full in the sense that, yes, it's really realistic that there's this other side of relationships and dating.
4:50
[SPEAKER_03]: But how do you also know that it's a positive thing in your life?
4:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do people not give up on love if they're having this realistic perspective?
4:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you don't need to have.
5:00
[SPEAKER_00]: fantasy of romance in order to participate in love or to have a wonderful love.
5:04
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea when I was saying get real, forget the fairy tale, be realistic, stop fantasizing, all of that stuff.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It is nothing to do with having a relationship that's not fun, that's not sexy, that's not wonderful, mate.
5:16
[SPEAKER_00]: that's not connected and full of love and wonderful times, also shitty times and conflict and managing differences in a decline in desire and challenge.
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just to say that the reality of relationships includes the entire spectrum.
5:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And the idea that we should be hopeful is one that I encourage people to give up at the end of my book at the chapter, give up hope.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: in terms of giving up the hope that, you know, we can find the person, the relationship, the job, the body type, the body weight, the hair color, the bag, the home that's going to give us this kind of salvation where we won't jungle deeply, and where we're not going to experience on going pain or loss or hurt, to wounding, because that just doesn't exist.
6:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, that doesn't mean that in the context of those experiences where we do get wounded or experienced pain, that there isn't intense joy and pleasure too.
6:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all of the things.
6:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more about accepting both the good and the bad and between then one or the other.
6:14
[SPEAKER_00]: But people want one or the other.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: People want black and white.
6:17
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's either this or that and how do I get this or how do I get that?
6:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's exactly it.
6:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, when you meet someone, you're like, oh, dating's the hard part.
6:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I finally met someone, like, I can breathe now.
6:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, the blinders come off at some point.
6:32
[SPEAKER_02]: There's some disagreement.
6:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I love what you say is anyone you love will disappoint you.
6:37
[SPEAKER_02]: You feel that disappointment.
6:38
[SPEAKER_02]: You thought that was reserved just for dating.
6:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you start to wonder, like, am I with the wrong person?
6:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the narrative we've been fed is like, like relationships.
6:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That is the silver bullet at the end.
6:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how would you respond to someone that's maybe questioning when that disappointment sets in?
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say you're thinking about it all wrong.
6:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Because as you're describing, and as we all have probably thought at some point in our life, the question of am I with the wrong person in response to disappointment conflict or some dynamic that we don't like?
7:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's not to say that the dynamic and the disappointments of relevant, but it's to say that the way that we are approaching relationships by only focusing on the other person or by only focusing on the here and now experiences we're doing ourselves as partners and our relationships are to service.
7:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to think about it differently.
7:22
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to think about our relationships as occurring in the context of our entire life journey.
7:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it's disappointment that we're responding to,
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: What is our experience with disappointment?
7:32
[SPEAKER_00]: What is our partner doing to disappoint us?
7:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And how is that connected to how we learned to be disappointed by our mother or father or grandparents or whoever raised us?
7:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Because oftentimes when we experience disappointment or conflict or we fight, it stirs up a lot of feelings.
7:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It triggers us.
7:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's unconscious for some of us.
7:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But most of the time, there's a lot more meaning in terms of how we experience this disappointment or conflict.
7:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we realize because our focus is wrong.
7:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The focus is being on my partner did this to me and I don't like that It's my partner did this to me.
8:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that because it triggers this experience I had throughout childhood or my parent didn't ask me questions and I felt invisible and I felt abandoned and they did abandoned me and I was neglected
8:13
[SPEAKER_00]: so when my partner doesn't show up for me or hug me or ask me how my day was, it's obnoxious, yes, but it also triggers these earlier experiences that disregulate me, stir up all of this emotion and then I get passive aggressive or I get angry and I yell at them.
8:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
8:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the focus.
8:31
[SPEAKER_00]: The focus has to be much more nuanced, much more broader, much more expansive.
8:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
8:36
[SPEAKER_00]: because when we get into the day did this to me and it made me feel.
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: That's reductive.
8:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's blame me.
8:41
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not taking responsibility for the role and what you bring to that dynamic.
8:45
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to expand.
8:46
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to create a story around these experiences.
8:49
[SPEAKER_00]: If we truly want to participate in relationships and sustainable for a long period of time, because they're not sustainable, if you stay in the here and now, they're just not.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: right.
8:58
[SPEAKER_03]: As you're saying that all I can picture is someone with a ton of suitcases getting off a flight and they're partner waiting for them and they're like, I finally have arrived and here's all my bags, please take it all.
9:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's kind of what I feel like sometimes relationships are as we dump so much on our partners, we expect so much out of them and vice versa to the point where we kind of get really overwhelmed and
9:22
[SPEAKER_03]: explode with all the baggage that we're all carrying and you'd often talk about this idea of just looking for good enough.
9:30
[SPEAKER_03]: In a society where we try to maximize everything.
9:33
[SPEAKER_03]: We optimize the way we live our lives.
9:35
[SPEAKER_03]: We are also trying to optimize our partners.
9:37
[SPEAKER_03]: People are saying isn't good enough settling.
9:40
[SPEAKER_03]: How would you counter that statement?
9:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say no.
9:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it's not settling good enough.
9:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good enough.
9:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good.
9:47
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think people often confuse good enough with settling, but I don't mean settling for a shitty relationship.
9:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean settling for an abusive partner for sure.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean settling for something that's not good most of the time for good enough.
9:59
[SPEAKER_00]: allows room for disappointment.
10:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Good enough allows room for interfection and all of the limitations that we all have.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Myself, you, all our partners, every single human being on this planet.
10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Because no one can show up for us all the time.
10:11
[SPEAKER_00]: No one can be our best friend all the time.
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: No one can be our best friend all the time.
10:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to allow a lot of space for disappointment and conflict and all the challenges that will arise.
10:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we're just constantly looking for the perfect person or the relationship, that's the best relationship ever, we're going to be looking forever.
10:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of looking for a home in New York City, a washer dryer, AC, like, I mean, there's literally a could be looking for a burr.
10:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But I have to find a place that I know that, you know, okay, so the washer dryer's in the basement.
10:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not in the unit.
10:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I could be happy living here, but that would frustrate me a little bit.
10:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing that I find most ironic is that we've all learned to try, at least, to approach ourselves with that kind of perspective.
10:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And we would all agree that we would say, we have to approach ourselves with self-lob and think that we are good enough just as we are, right?
10:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So we give ourselves that courtesy, we allow ourselves to make mistakes and be limited in the imperfect and the annoying and struggle.
11:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But we did not give that same task to our partners or our relationships.
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: We really have to understand that that sense of being, I'm enough that kind of experience has to also be with our partner.
11:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It has to also be with our relationship, but it can be enough.
11:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be perfect, but it can be enough.
11:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And just to clarify, we're not saying to be with the person that won't commit to you or the situation for something toxic, this is more likely.
11:33
[SPEAKER_02]: But, and no, like, someone that's in it, but maybe they have a flaw, too.
11:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, maybe they're not perfect.
11:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they have a flaw.
11:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
11:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the way that I like to think about it is that the positive interactions outweigh the negative, that's really basically it.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's good enough, you don't need 85% good times.
11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't.
11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
11:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the reality, too, is at the beginning.
11:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We tend to have, you know, the honeymoon stage, everything is going great.
11:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And then things start to unravel.
11:59
[SPEAKER_02]: We start to see the flaws come out the annoyances.
12:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I love what you say like the end of the honeymoon stage is the start of the real relationship.
12:07
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you being by that?
12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, it's a really big and scary experience, and it can be to supporting them in itself, but what I mean by that is that the beginning of a relationship is usually pretty nice.
12:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's low conflict, lots of sex shouldn't be that difficult negotiating intimacy.
12:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You're still idealizing your partner.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Emotional intimacy itself isn't as deep, though the little things they do aren't going to know you.
12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And by that, I mean,
12:34
[SPEAKER_00]: you don't live with them likely, you're not spending every single day together with them, so there's still space and separateness.
12:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as emotional intimacy increases, as you start spending more time together, you start getting to know each other.
12:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You start getting to know those limitations.
12:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Those limitations start to annoy you.
12:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Those limitations and annoyances start to create a dynamic, and in that dynamic, the honeymoon ends.
12:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And your relationship is basically starting and by that I mean you know each other because at the beginning of a relationship You don't really know each other even if you're spending a lot of time together You don't know each other.
13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know each other in terms of how you're interacting with your best friends You're family or when something doesn't go your way or on a trip when you miss your train or yeah All of those micro experiences deep in emotional intimacy and so over time you get to know each other
13:19
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's in that space that you start forming loving feelings and also resentments, annoyances, disappointments, complex, where that idealization is no longer, and you're like, oh, this is who I've chosen.
13:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't believe it, but I'm sure.
13:36
[SPEAKER_00]: the reality sets it and people often get really disappointed by it not lasting longer by it whatever but there's really nothing wrong with that I mean oftentimes I can mean many things I mean it kind of mean that the relationship will work but it couldn't mean you just got to know each other really quickly and there's a dynamic that's happened that traumas are competing with one another but so it's not a bad sign I think it's good it's good it's real
13:58
[SPEAKER_03]: But like you said, it's a scary transition process, because that's when things get real.
14:04
[SPEAKER_03]: That's when things really unfold.
14:05
[SPEAKER_03]: How do people strike the balance between being realistic that we are transitioning out of the honeymoon period versus, oh, this person is not right for me.
14:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I get asked this question regularly.
14:17
[SPEAKER_00]: One is a time.
14:18
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I know what should I do?
14:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
14:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Most people are really freaked out.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, when we approach relationships is through a lot of anxiety.
14:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Eharmonie does these really great studies that call them dating diaries.
14:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of the stats that they found is that most people who have experienced one breakup, still one experience of heartbreak, over 84% of them are going to bring that caution in that fear into their new relationships.
14:45
[SPEAKER_00]: just want an experience with heartbreak, one experience with loss, and so when the honey runs, when we hit a wall at our partner, those cautionary tales from our last relationship, from the pain, from the burn, from the wounding, comes up.
14:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm less concerned with the timing, the demographics, the wind to leave, went to go, and again, more around lifting away from that
15:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is it that you have found out about your partner?
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it that you found out about yourself?
15:14
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it that's missing?
15:16
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing to work on it?
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: What have you done to work on it?
15:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you go to a couple therapy?
15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you take a course?
15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: All of those questions about what's happening.
15:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And to really create a story around that and to co-create the relationship around those two co-occurring stories.
15:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Because most people what they're doing is whether it's the end of the honeymoon or a horrible dynamic that just leaves them feeling shitty Is that they're not addressing it with their partner, and if they are they're doing it in the most unproductive ways Yeah, but doesn't work and then they keep doing it over and over it doesn't work but they just keep doing it
15:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if anything, all of this experience, the challenge, the handling, the conflict, all of it, like that, it's an opportunity to wake up, it's an opportunity to learn something about yourself, to learn something about your partner and your relationship.
16:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Regardless, if it means you're going to be with them forever and ever and ever.
16:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's the thing is that we're all freaks the fuck out that our relationships are going to end before they've ended.
16:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And so as a result, we become a partner that's not necessarily connected.
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not necessarily really working on the issues that are bringing up our fears in the first place.
16:21
[SPEAKER_00]: The main point I'm trying to make is to shift away from the value of lens of, you know, what's the algebraic equation that equals my decision or what I should do and more so on.
16:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Who am I?
16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: What's happening for me?
16:34
[SPEAKER_00]: What's my story?
16:36
[SPEAKER_00]: What's my partner's story?
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about that.
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how can we work on this together?
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: La Blaba Blaba Blaba Blaba that that's something really.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a crucial skill to work on and to be able to do what I'm talking about is curiosity and collaboration.
16:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
16:50
[SPEAKER_02]: You also, like, in your book, like, the central story was about you and your ex-partner of 10 years.
16:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm sure you have a lot of experience of navigating this and I remember, like, reading it and you talking about, like, how you just, like, felt there was this feeling of emotional depth that was missing and communication knowing what you know now.
17:11
[SPEAKER_02]: How would you have approached this differently?
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was going to dedicate a piece of my book to go back and decided ultimately not to do that because who knows.
17:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a session earlier with a client that was trying to do that and like, you know, ultimately there's really no way to know what would have worked differently.
17:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But as I'm entering a new relationship now.
17:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
17:28
[SPEAKER_00]: The same exact things are coming up for me.
17:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Regardless of what my partner is or isn't doing my same exact emotional responses and feelings and themes are coming up And I'm not with drawing.
17:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not avoiding.
17:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not planning my escape I'm really doing my best to work through them mutually because what I did with my ex was I never really tried to work through them because I was so convinced he couldn't Hmm, I couldn't been right.
17:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
17:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Every time I tried to bring something out He really just didn't want to talk about it.
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I could have burst, you know, I don't know
18:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I do know now is that the same things come up and I can't let myself avoid them.
18:05
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the biggest thing that I've learned.
18:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I were to go back and redo it, that's a huge thing that I would do.
18:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's fascinating, but the safe stuff has come up, which just goes to your point earlier.
18:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Fascinating as one word.
18:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Really, I didn't know what I mean, and that is how I thought I was over this shit as really the story.
18:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Facidate from our perspective, baby, nine years.
18:30
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I know.
18:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really unbelievable.
18:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really unbelievable.
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really important in terms of how my trauma has impacted me.
18:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I know doing what I do is that this isn't a me thing.
18:42
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, you know, if you experience trauma, but you'll probably have thematically similar issues in your intimate relationships.
18:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just so easy to be like, well, I just go to someone else like they'll get resolved.
18:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other shit comes up.
18:55
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the difference between thinking about something in theory and then putting it into practice.
19:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And now you have the opportunity to put it into practice with all these patterns repeated.
19:05
[SPEAKER_03]: And how you respond to these patterns is the progression that you've made.
19:10
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's validating for people to hear that the patterns still come up even though you did all this work But now it's like how do you deal with it and one thing you talk about quite a bit is we get so affected by our partners They say something we get pissed they do something we think we're highly highly affected by the things that they do But you often say you have to hold your own space.
19:33
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't lose yourself, but also hold that space for your partner
19:37
[SPEAKER_03]: to say or do whatever they need to do.
19:39
[SPEAKER_03]: How are you able to do that now in this relationship?
19:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Like when these old patterns come up, how do you hold that space for your partner?
19:48
[SPEAKER_03]: But I'll also know that there's a separation.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I could tell you like what I would tell my clients, but the reality of that's really fucking hard.
19:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I call this mission impossible in my book.
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't do both.
20:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You just can't.
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't hold space for yourself and hold space for your partner.
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is also what I want to talk about on the book is in terms of differentiation.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: is that we have to connect with our self first and hold space for our self first.
20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And that does it mean to neglect our partner or to dismiss them and validate them or disconnect from them or withdraw from them.
20:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It just means to connect with, okay, this is what I'm feeling.
20:22
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what my story is, what's yours, as opposed to what you are, what are you thinking, what are you feeling, why do you think that, why do you feel,
20:28
[SPEAKER_00]: to really connect first with yourself, so you can have two adults who are trying to connect from their authentic self and being able to hold space for that is the challenge.
20:38
[SPEAKER_03]: What is something that's very triggering for you?
20:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take criticism.
20:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, I really ha.
20:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so let's say your partner criticizes you.
20:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, all of this is the mind-flop, so, okay, so you get criticised, and then I could get upset, I could withdraw, I could disconnect.
20:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I could understand that the criticism isn't really about me, then maybe they're anxious tired or hungry.
20:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I could also say, you know, I know myself, I know that, you know, they can criticise me, I'll be won't, I know that this is, you know, not a problem, and that I'm not doing anything wrong.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's bothering them for some reason, and that that's okay.
21:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm holding space for myself saying, I know who I am.
21:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that this is not something that I've done.
21:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's terrible or wrong, and that they're having a reaction to me.
21:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And that that's okay.
21:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Similar to how we can say to ourselves, it's okay if we hate our partners, it's okay if our partner meets us.
21:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really going to happen.
21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: If we frustrate them, if we annoy them, and we have to be able to depersonalize that, which is so...
21:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And so often what it is is it's a ping pong match inside my mind where I'm like, yeah, but he's doing it But no, it's not, you know, it's you know, there's a lot of back and forth and depending on the day Sometimes, you know, the ball will end in one of the other course And I won't be able to manage and kind of hold myself together
21:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And other days, you know, I'll be able to simply laugh and just be like, you're on one today, aren't you?
21:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, not personalize it and not fully care or spin and spiral about, well, what does this mean about who they are and the relationship and relationship in five months and six years and this isn't gonna work if we have a kid and, you know, yeah.
22:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
22:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where it can go.
22:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where my head goes.
22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like years.
22:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:14
[SPEAKER_00]: But don't even there.
22:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's fear.
22:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It's lots of fear.
22:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So the best thing is to really just do your best and have your best be enough to connect with the fear, to see how it's not day today.
22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You're able to be in the present, be there for yourself, and do what it is that you warrant, which is connect.
22:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because
22:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So often we get to these points where we just were like mad at our partners for doing something and the way we react, whether it's internally or internally, destroys connection.
22:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
22:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really glad that you like normalize that like sometimes what the textbook says or so that is what you would say to clients like sometimes doesn't always
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: measure up in the moment because I've been there before, like I'm like, oh, you know, we do this podcast.
22:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had this like episode of just elegant communication and how to use like eye statements.
22:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's the first one's been you're in the moment of like, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
23:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's good though to normalize because I think sometimes people where they hear all this like, oh, I have to like, you know, make sure I'm doing it by the book and you know, following this method to like have a healthy relationship.
23:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love what you say of just like even tossing out this notion of healthy relationship and like all of these notions that it's just like not always realistic at times.
23:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say this to a client.
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't be like, you know, it's going to be easy.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this is really, really fucking hard.
23:36
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to be really fucking annoyed.
23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to be able to do this all the time.
23:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't sugar up it.
23:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It's important.
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
23:44
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also just so real to accept that two realities can exist at once.
23:49
[SPEAKER_03]: You can both love someone and be frustrated by them.
23:52
[SPEAKER_03]: You can both have done all this work and still be triggered and have old relationship patterns show up.
23:57
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like two facts.
23:58
[SPEAKER_03]: are happening at once, and sometimes they are kind of contradictory.
24:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Something that a quote that you've said that we've quoted in a previous episode is, no matter how many boxes someone checks, you always choose someone that in the end frustrates you.
24:11
[SPEAKER_03]: We all end up with our own unfinished business and create dynamics that result in and re-enactment of our early or stuff.
24:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you sometimes read your old shit and you're like, I should listen to that.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I should probably think that's where you know, write it because that's
24:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, and then yeah, you said how hard it is to try to differentiate what's your own shit versus what's missing in that relationship.
24:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Any other frameworks that you can give our listeners of when something like this happens, do you just take a pause and then set back like some other methodology for us?
24:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, people are constantly trying to decide as it mirrors at my partner.
24:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, right now when listening, you can give yourself permission.
24:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You just, you don't have to do that.
24:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You can stop because the answer is it's well.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It's both your partner and it's you.
24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no one or the other.
25:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always both.
25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: If it was just you alone in a room, it would just be you.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But if there's two people in the room, then there's two people in the room.
25:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really hard not to go inspire and blame our partners for being the imperfect assholes that they can be.
25:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But what's more productive, like I was saying, is to be more curious about ourselves to use that experience of whatever the bad is the wound is, the insecurity is.
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: to explore and to learn more about ourselves because that's what we have access to directly is ourselves and that's what we have somewhat control over is ourselves.
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't control our partners no matter how much we want to and we don't own them either.
25:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So the best thing that we can do in those situations are to say okay this is both them and me what's my role and then you share them what your role and then you say well what's your role and you negotiate and you compromise
25:54
[SPEAKER_00]: but it's always about it, it's always most.
25:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of times people will like, well, I don't have this issue with anyone else in my life.
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you've talked about this like a bit like obviously you're just spending a lot more time with your partner.
26:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Like is there anything else of why it comes out in romantic relationships where maybe like you don't feel the same way towards friendships or platonic situations?
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of course.
26:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I hear this line all the time.
26:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I actually just say this, so drive me crazy.
26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, of course, you only have this problem with me.
26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we only have these problems with our intimate partners.
26:24
[SPEAKER_00]: They're the ones that we have the most emotional intimacy with.
26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We're quite literally sharing lives with a partner.
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: We're expecting them to be everything to us these days.
26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't expect our friends to be our life companion or a fact-body, our dog walker, our
26:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Our everything.
26:41
[SPEAKER_00]: We expect them to be our friends and if they cancel we're like what the fuck?
26:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But if our partner cancels, oh my god, it's the end of the world.
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the pressure and the expectations are higher.
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: The emotional intimacy is deeper.
26:52
[SPEAKER_00]: The role is more centralized and it centralizes in such a way that it directly mirrors and parallels our earlier attachment relationships.
26:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So our relationships with our adult partners are intimate relationships.
27:04
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not attached to our relationships, but they're a reenactment of earlier relationships.
27:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And so because of that, they're going to stir up our traumas, they're going to stir up absolutely everything.
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if a friend pisses us off versus a partner, it's going to be a very different experience.
27:19
[SPEAKER_00]: They need more to us.
27:21
[SPEAKER_00]: They played a big role in our life.
27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like, you know, a stranger versus a friend.
27:25
[SPEAKER_00]: If the stranger says I don't like your shirt versus a friend, you know, the friend is going to have more of an impact on you.
27:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Because that's the person you think about every day.
27:32
[SPEAKER_03]: The person you interact with every day.
27:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously everything they do is going to have a lot more impact on you.
27:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And knowing that when you're in a relationship with someone, they have such an impact on you.
27:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's say you decide to leave that relationship.
27:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any thoughts around what is the best way to end a relationship?
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
27:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Kindly, empathically, together, through sadness, don't many people end relationships through anger.
27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're blame, anger, labeling.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: mean regret all of this shit and I see all of that as resistance as a defense against the sadness, the loss.
28:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So the best way to end a relationship is with integrity to honor the relationship for the shitty times, for the wonderful times, for the confusing times.
28:17
[SPEAKER_00]: to honor your partner for being limited and imperfect, but your partner nonetheless to give yourself credit and softness and be more generous to really approach the ending of a relationship with a lot of nuance.
28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But so many people are doing it with just blaming and saying their partner was a bullshit and how could they have done that?
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: They mean big mistake, never will I ever, blocking this that, you know, never speaking to them ever again.
28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of animosity.
28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's just a cover for a fear of loss.
28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: the scariest part of our lives is loss.
28:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely.
28:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And like you were saying earlier, like the animosity will carry to the next relationship or yeah.
28:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think we've talked about this a bit of like this common question of do I stay or do I go?
28:58
[SPEAKER_02]: But you offer up like a third option of giving it your all.
29:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think this is like the best option to go for if you're in this position and like how do you actually make change happen in this option?
29:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's really hard because it feels counterintuitive.
29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're feeling one foot out the door, feeling like you should end your relationship, working on the relationship feels like why would I do that if I wanna end it?
29:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is that so many people are saying, I wanna end my relationship, I'm unhappy, one foot's out the door, but they're not ending their relationship.
29:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're not actually gonna end your relationship, if you're just thinking about it, if you're unhappy and unsatisfied and miserable, but in it, then if you are not working on it, you're contributing to your own misery.
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so most of us do think that there's really only these two options.
29:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to just stay on it and figure it out and make it work or or leave.
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But the third option is, is you work really fucking hard.
29:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You do your best.
29:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You navigate whatever it is that's come up that's making you unhappy.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Figure out what your role is.
29:56
[SPEAKER_00]: and you explore these complex together with your partner.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: The decision to end a relationship is a couple of issues.
30:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can work on that together, whether that's working on that together ending it, or in creating a new relationship that feels more satisfying, but it's hard because most people don't want to put effort into something they want to leave, even though they might be paralyzed and not leaving.
30:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what if you're ready to put in the effort but your partner is resistant?
30:22
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you deal with that?
30:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, everyone's resistant in one way or another.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so you can push.
30:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You can challenge.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You can push and challenge more.
30:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I would say go to therapy.
30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I honestly don't whatever go through or be in a relationship without being in therapy.
30:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to do a relationship alone ever again.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, I think going to therapy doing active work reading books together.
30:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, really.
30:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say demanding, but I'm going to say demanding that work is done, and, you know, that's another way that you can see if this is going to work.
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to work in your relationship, and your partner's like, well, I'm not working on it.
30:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there you go.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a problem.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's information for you.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I encourage people to do the work as opposed to just kind of sitting going, who may hate this sucks.
31:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate my partner, hate my relationship, and not doing anything about it.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: right.
31:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's in the process of trying and putting work into it that will help you get to your decision as opposed to making pros and cons lists and just being unsatisfying, being unhappy, doing the same thing over and over again and just being unhappy, which is what most people do.
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say therapy, books, online programs, some kind of collaborative experience that's work related.
31:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I could hear people saying, like, I don't want to push too hard.
31:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to like, you know, make it worse.
31:44
[SPEAKER_02]: What would you say to them?
31:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this just a wise sign?
31:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
31:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you want to push?
31:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you want to ask for more?
31:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, usually this is a story that goes far beyond a decline in satisfaction and a relationship.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So look deeper to your own stuff.
32:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's kind of the answer to everything.
32:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Just played every piece.
32:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
32:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And along the same lines with Julie, what just Julie just asked, what happens in a relationship where one person is the more wounded one, who carries more trauma, who has, who seemingly has more shit to work on.
32:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
32:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other partners there to support.
32:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that dynamic actually exists?
32:27
[SPEAKER_03]: And it does, does the healthier partner?
32:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what is that person working on?
32:35
[SPEAKER_00]: all sorts of relationships exist and all sorts of dynamics, relationships are so diverse, which is often why take this neutral nuance to approach and stay away from this kind of aspirational right way of whatever relationships.
32:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But if somebody, if one person is struggling more than the other, that's okay.
32:56
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like saying if you know what if one person is a physical
33:00
[SPEAKER_00]: My, you know, it's no different.
33:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that mental health issues are the same as physical health issues.
33:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying they're not, but what I am saying is that some kind of negotiation agreement and ongoing discussion and process and working together has to happen.
33:15
[SPEAKER_00]: in terms of creating balance and creating and understanding what that balance looks like.
33:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Because relationships don't have to be 50-50 in order to be satisfying.
33:24
[SPEAKER_00]: People don't have to be in the same exact place with their mental or physical health in order for it to be satisfying either.
33:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But people do need to have an idea of what they want and be committed to also giving their partner what they want if they can.
33:37
[SPEAKER_02]: When do you think it is time to go?
33:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Like outside of someone that won't work on it or abusive or toxic situations, like what other reasons would you say are grounds for throwing in the towel?
33:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so individual and subjective.
33:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, aside from that catastrophic stuff, I mean, if you're really unsatisfied and just really unhappy and you don't like your partner and you don't respect that, that's a really big problem.
34:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically if you're like, just don't respect them or there's no like redeeming qualities anymore.
34:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like it's not eligible.
34:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to learn more about your current relationship.
34:14
[SPEAKER_03]: How did you two meet and how long have you been together?
34:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Dating up nine months, maybe more November or whatever many months, just so it's still new.
34:21
[SPEAKER_03]: What feels different in this relationship than previous ones?
34:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm talking about things a lot and so was the work where we're pretty open with each other with our internal worlds as things come up.
34:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So like with LeX, we never really processed any of our conflict or just kind of on autopilot, which actually worked for a period of time.
34:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's because I was younger or what, but it's much more open in terms of if we're having conflict or if we're annoyed with each other or if we're in a mood or whatever, it's much more transparent in that sense.
34:52
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things up picking up from this conversation is just like, there's always gonna be, you know, two things can be right at the same time.
35:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you can be happy in a new relationship and then also miss your ex or the past life that you had.
35:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you still feel that?
35:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know at the end of your book, you kind of shared that you still miss your ex-Alex often.
35:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how are you feeling about that today?
35:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say I miss him often.
35:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think about him's Halloween.
35:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: more the relationship and the idea, you know, which I'm building with my current partner, but the idea of having a shared life with somebody.
35:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That's something that I am actively working on building with my partner and something that I really enjoyed about my last relationship.
35:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It was having a house together, dark together, future plans together, and the assumption that there was a future together.
35:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think of him finally, he's a wonderful person.
35:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't miss him.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
35:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully, but it did take a really long time for me to not as I write about in the book because of specific contexts in my life.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: With my family, with moving, with friends, I was pretty long-range and I was using him as a stand-in to hold on to, so then I missed him more.
36:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
36:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That was more related to some complex issues that I was dealing with, which I'm not really anymore.
36:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you still talk to him?
36:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not really like, we'll check in once in a while.
36:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Does he know he's in your book?
36:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, I sent him a copy and- Oh, you did.
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You saw the manuscript before it was published.
36:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, okay, yeah, okay.
36:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know if he's read it.
36:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But- He's bad.
36:23
[SPEAKER_02]: He was sent to him.
36:24
[SPEAKER_02]: He was sent.
36:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean I think like what just like one thing that's just overarching with relationships is like I think what we talked about here was like this anxiety over written by anxiety but there's also like this feeling of needing to control I think yeah like you don't want to have pain happen so you feel like you need to be in control like how do you start to let go of that and take relationships more for what they are like you are describing at the beginning
36:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's really hard, I don't know anyone who isn't a control freak who doesn't want to control their partner or the environment in such a way that it won't touch out their wounds or their subspots.
37:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone wants to control that.
37:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when someone does such a subspots, we want to control them for doing it and blaming them and hoping expect that they won't do it again.
37:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And then a week later, they do it again and they go through the whole things, etc.
37:16
[SPEAKER_00]: etc.
37:16
[SPEAKER_00]: The letting go of control thing is connected to what I was saying that give up hope, which is again the last chapter of the book, in terms of giving a hope and giving up the need to try and safeguard ourselves from experiencing pain.
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying go touch a hot show, but when it comes to our relationships, especially uncertainty, and especially the triggers that come up to accept them, to embrace them, just as we would a wonderful experience, and to let them help it, because they're coming.
37:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: we can't do anything to stop it.
37:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So the best thing we can do is to really honor what it is that comes out if our wounds get stirred up, they know them to know our souls, to view it just as we would any other experience, to examine our relationship with pleasure and pain, to examine how we respond to pleasure and pain, and to develop a more philosophical connection to some of those experiences.
38:06
[SPEAKER_00]: rather than I need to control to analyze, to solve, to fix, to treat, to cure.
38:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Because right now, that's where our relational cultural space is.
38:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's aspirational around this kind of, you know, identify red flags, treat films, and either cure them, or move on, and then there's something wrong with you.
38:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's something wrong with your relationship.
38:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They're probably toxic.
38:28
[SPEAKER_00]: What's their problem?
38:29
[SPEAKER_00]: What's your problem?
38:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to leave.
38:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You should have left already.
38:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if that was real, I would love that, but that whole process is not again.
38:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a realistic way to think about things.
38:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, everyone's label is toxic these days.
38:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.
38:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Everyone's in a toxic relationship with a toxic person.
38:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'd toast to it about that today.
38:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's so many takeaways of this whole conversation.
38:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the biggest one I'm having is kind of what you were just alluding to of just everything in today's world is so black and white of healthier, not healthy, good or bad, stay or go.
39:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I'm hearing from you is that there's just so
39:03
[SPEAKER_02]: much middle ground because at the end of the day, we are humans, we are flawed, like everyone is not going to be perfect at all times and all those expectations and the anxiety and the need for control, like that's what's actually getting it our way, not our partners.
39:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Ultimately, not even our own stuff if we can address it and really like in a relationship, I think the reality that needs to set in for everyone is there's going to be good days and bad days.
39:29
[SPEAKER_02]: but do the good outweigh the bad, and then also is your partner willing to work with you.
39:34
[SPEAKER_02]: For me personally, that's been the biggest green flag all you use for my relationship, is that even if there's challenges, my partner will listen to that podcast, he will do the exercise, he will go to therapy, that to me is actually worth working on.
39:51
[SPEAKER_02]: if someone wasn't willing to do that, then I would look at it differently instead of being like, well, sometimes this happens or sometimes that happens or we trigger each other in certain ways, what I'm realizing is that I would be triggered by anyone.
40:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like how do you deal with it and how do you find a partner that will work with you on everything so you can heal together, but then also, you know, make ultimately a life that works for the two of you.
40:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally, I couldn't have said it any better.
40:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just summarizing you.
40:18
[SPEAKER_00]: A hundred percent.
40:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Put that in your quotes.
40:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
40:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
40:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like my main takeaway is not looking at relationships from a evaluative lens.
40:28
[SPEAKER_03]: That was such a fucking light bulb that went down my head because you know, I thought a lot of the times what we say is, Oh, when your partner does something, take that as information.
40:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
40:38
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you evaluate that and what do you do with that information but what you're actually saying is don't put a filter on it It's not a good or bad.
40:47
[SPEAKER_03]: It's it is it happened and it's making me feel this way and get curious about why is it making me feel this way What's it bring up for me in my space?
40:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I take care of myself first and then I bring it back into the relationship of looking at more of a holistic lens.
41:04
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that because outside of the extreme behaviors and actual abuse of behavior, there really is no good or bad in a relationship.
41:11
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I feel like.
41:12
[SPEAKER_03]: It is just is.
41:13
[SPEAKER_03]: It is.
41:14
[SPEAKER_03]: This is something that's happening and we just have to really understand how we process what is happening in a relationship and having a partner who's willing to process with you.
41:24
[SPEAKER_03]: is probably the biggest quality we should be looking for in a partner, outside of all the other shit that doesn't really fucking matter, end of the day.
41:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I have one last question for you, realistically speaking, even in the healthiest of relationships like the Esther Perelles and the Gomans.
41:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think they have periods of seriously thinking about leaving the partner?
41:44
[SPEAKER_00]: they themselves?
41:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
41:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, totally.
41:48
[SPEAKER_03]: You think so.
41:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's just, it's just normal, right?
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
41:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like being in a bad mood.
41:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Ranging.
41:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Body skies are against lightnings and thunder.
41:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, some days or moments can be a flash.
42:01
[SPEAKER_00]: of hate and disgust.
42:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, for some reason, it just lift.
42:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Go to bed.
42:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We wake up the next morning and we're back in love or we're back committed or whatever.
42:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think it's part of the normal Evan flow rupture and repair and all relationships.
42:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is something I've learned a guy have to work on, but like, I think for me, it's easier to say that.
42:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, when I'm the one at the bottom of the floor, if I hear that, like, that my partner's like, questionate things are like, yes, that's sleigh.
42:27
[SPEAKER_02]: like really goes to a deep wound and I'm realizing that this is not stuff for my relationship.
42:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's stuff from a lot earlier on that needs to get dull with for sure.
42:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, always.
42:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you could leave our listeners maybe with one bore thought about love to keep them grounded.
42:45
[SPEAKER_02]: What would that be?
42:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Be more curious about yourself and your partner.
42:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
42:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I guess the last question.
42:51
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole book title added out loser mind to you.
42:55
[SPEAKER_02]: What is like the way to stay grounded and not lose your mind in love?
42:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't mean to disappoint you, but the title is a bait and switch.
43:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to lose your fucking
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something yesterday, so you can tolerate your partner.
43:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
43:10
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
43:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I love how real you are.
43:12
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, probably the realest guest expert we've ever had on our show.
43:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
43:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate that.
43:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
43:18
[SPEAKER_02]: You will lose your mind.
43:19
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to.
43:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Other than us stalking you on Instagram, what are some other ways that people can learn more about you?
43:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find me on the link on Instagram at your diagnostics and my podcast at our diagnostics.
43:33
[SPEAKER_00]: My website, tautaspairedst.com, gentlemen house rep for eHarmony so you can find on information about eHarmony in me there and have online courses, get my book, I love somebody without losing your mind, audio, Kindle, multiple languages.
43:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the book, and hopefully, yeah, everyone could get their hands on it, because there's just so many more and nuggets that we did even go into on this episode.
43:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Just links.
43:56
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to this psychology of relationships today, so you don't miss an episode.
44:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And we'll see you all next week.