Latest / 8 Years To Live / Sleep Changes Everything | With Chrissy Lawler

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Sleep Changes Everything | With Chrissy Lawler · 8 Years To Live

• Collen: Every person has a story. Some shape us, some break us, and some help us heal. Join Sisters Kim and Bibi as they explore mental health, trauma, relationships, and personal growth through honest conversations, lived experiences, and professional insights. Because understanding your story can change the way you live it. This is Eight Years to Live. I have gone into a coma. I would just say. Mario Shriver. Yes. Yes. Why do we have so many nicknames for each other? It's a good question. Because medical trauma is one of the most under recognized forms of trauma. Who are you gonna talk to when I die? He's already telling you you've got eight years slip. BB! WWW! I'm in Boise, ⁓ recording a podcast. I'm visiting our nephew. And that's about it. I just woke up from a nap not too long ago. Beautiful. I love it. I don't usually nap, so that's a big deal. Exactly. In the car on the drive here. I thought, wow, that's so good. That is good. Yeah, WWW. I'm at home. You can hear my dog barking. She hasn't stopped. I'm thinking about inviting her to the podcast. ⁓ no. Yeah. Anyway, it's been so good unpacking your medical history. And I can't believe that I learned new things even though I've been your sister my whole life. And just in unpacking that Isn't that crazy? Yeah, and I did I wasn't the only one that learned something new. Our other sister also learned something new and yeah, that's been pretty pretty cool. I think I learned things about myself and about you. Mm. Yeah. So that's been awesome. Always fun to digest things to that level. Yes, I agree. So today we have a special guest. Remember when I was doing my practicum and I told you about that therapist that specialized in sleep? Yes. I ⁓ totally remember. I remember because I struggle with sleep. Like I just said, I don't nap. I sleep at night better than I ever have. But yes, I that stayed with me. Is she our special guest? She's our special guest. Her name is Chrissy Lawler and I just wanted to mentioned briefly that she's been a marriage and family therapist for fifteen years I think and that's just amazing. When I first met her I'd already heard things about her. ⁓ I remember the receptionist at the place that I was doing my practicum said, ⁓ you know, Chrissy's this ⁓ sleep expert and then another therapist also said, you know, this sleep expert I'm like, who is this sleep expert? And I met her in the kitchen and yeah, it was ⁓ It's been a nice journey getting to know her and I'd love to get to know her and more today and have our listeners also get to know her. Chrissy, welcome to our podcast. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes. Hi, welcome. Good to meet you. Nice to meet you too. So tell us a little bit about ⁓ your journey, fifteen years in the marriage and family therapy area. Tell us about yourself. Yeah, it's wild. ⁓ I don't feel old enough to have been doing anything for fifteen years. I don't know if you're You don't look old enough to do it. Like I'm not an adult yet. This is cruel. Exactly. But yeah, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I've been practicing 15 years. And then I kind of had a little bit of a pivot early in my career, realizing how incredibly important sleep is. in every aspect of our functioning. And so kind of early on as a clinician, realizing that so many of my clients that were stuck weren't sleeping well. And then I hated not having the tools to just be like, ⁓ I don't know, sleep is tough. Let's talk about the real issues. And, you know, realized pretty quickly that if I wasn't addressing sleep, I was missing such a critical piece of the well being puzzle. So I got trained in advanced behavioral sleep medicine to treat adult sleep issues. And then I had babies and realized how critically important sleep is in maternal mental health and that early family adjustment. And so now here I am. I have four kids and I just wrote a book. And I have these two different businesses that sometimes intersect. I still do a lot in my clinical therapy. work. I do a lot of work with adult sleep issues and then a lot with babies and toddlers. So I'm your sleep lady. Wow. That's amazing. Fascinating. Yes. How does your family sleep? ⁓ we sleep great. ⁓ I always joke that sleep is a family value. So yeah. I I am fortunate to have kids that will say when they're tired that go to bed. I mean of course They're 13 down to five. So it's not like everybody's just like excited and skipping to bed every night, but everybody fully recognizes how important it is for their well being. And if they're procrastinating bedtime, then they're still like reading books in their room or chit chatting with their sisters. So I'm like, you know what? I'll I'll take it. I'm not even gonna fight that. Yes. Yeah. You mentioned early on in your career, like how early on? Because you've been a sleep expert in my mind like forever, but when did that happen? Yeah, it was right before I had Maddie and she's thirteen now. So within my first couple of years, just kind of realized like, wait, sleep is really, really important if I yeah. And and I started my career first off in my practicum, I was working in a drug treatment center and just realizing how, you know Addicts and former addicts, the whole sleep system gets real wonky and figuring out how to sleep well was such a critical early part of recovery. So kind of in every aspect of my career, I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, sleep is everything. Yes, I agree. And BB, I I know that you can relate to that. ⁓ totally. I started to struggle ⁓ sleeping as a child. Probably around that I can remember, probably eleven. I got really sick, like I had a lot of medical problems. So yeah, I've struggled my entire life. So I am just so excited to hear what you have to say. I should have brought a pen and paper. Actually, you know what? It's a recording. I can just go back and listen to it. But I am pumped. I feel like everybody like we don't realize how important it is. Like in my teens, twenties. Gosh, sleep three hours and you're golden. Mm-hmm. And now in my forties, I'm like, I want to sleep twenty-three hours. Maybe I can function the one hour. Yeah. And for me in my fifties, it's like, ⁓ my gosh, this perimenopause thing, it's like I was a really good sleeper. I've always said, you know, that was my one and only talent was sleeping. I could sleep twelve hours, knock ⁓ out, not wake up once, and it was amazing. And I was like, waking up at two AM. That's how I knew something is not right. That whole business of waking up. Do you deal with a lot of ⁓ perimenopausal women? Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, because you know, a lot of women have the same experience as you. That like I've always been a good sleeper my whole entire life. And then something shifts with hormones, and we see a lot of that with pregnancy too. That all of a sudden I can't sleep anymore. And then what started out as a physiological sleep challenge then turns into a mental sleep challenge. And so that's what I do with my work with adults is figure out how we can reset your sleep system so that an every now and then problem doesn't turn into an all the time problem. Because you know, most of us end up doing a lot of things that don't support our optimal sleep. Either in our behaviors, we are laying in bed resting because at least we're resting, even if we're not sleeping. Which for many women just turns into thinking and overthinking and stressing and planning and revisiting that conversation and, you know, intrusive thoughts and all the things. And so from a conditioning perspective, we unintentionally condition ourselves that the bed is the place where I lie awake at night and stress and solve all the world's problems instead of the bed is the place where I sleep. And so that's one part of it. ⁓ and then, you know, we then we also have a lot of cognitions around sleep of like go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep. If I don't fall asleep right now, I'm gonna be a monster. I'm gonna be so tired, I better fall asleep quick. And then, you know, I always joke, like if you had a drill sergeant or a partner over you, like, go to bed, go to bed, go to bed, go to bed, you'd be like, Get away from me. I can't sleep with all that pressure. And so we have these warring systems within ourselves that, you know, kind of just shoot us in the foot. I feel like you've been reading my journal. Yeah. Yes, same. Exactly. I had not ever put that together of okay, I because I've literally thought that. I'm just gonna lay in bed and if I'm here, at least I'm resting. And I am a thinker. And revisiting that conversation is my favorite thing to do. ⁓ huh. Yep. Yeah, it's like early starting. Yeah, it's like early psychology, the Pavlov's dogs. Like we accidentally condition ourselves that go to bed, stress, go to bed, stress, go to bed, stress, go to bed, stay awake in stress, go to bed, stay awake in stress. And so I think a lot of us, especially as moms, you know, we have that experience of it's eight or nine o'clock at night, you're exhausted, you can't wait for the kids to go to bed, so you can finally go to bed. You're like cleaning the counter, doing one last thing, and then like finally I can go to sleep. And then as soon as you wash your face and brush your teeth, it's like bing. Now you're awake. Wait a second, I've been looking forward to going to bed all evening. And now I'm here and I am wired. Like what just happened? And it's conditioning. Yes. Yep. So what do we do? Okay. So this is the part that nobody loves. And this is for adults. What I treat is this very kind of narrow window of cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. So we have 60 different sleep disorders, and I treat one of them. Albeit it's the most common one. But if there is a physiological underpinning, like we're if CBTI doesn't work, we're gonna want to get you a sleep study to figure out what is actually happening. ⁓ but I'll give you the Cliff Notes version. It's about a six to eight week reset where first you meet with me. We talk about, you know, any of the things that get in the way of your good sleep system, especially alcohol, is something that will kill your sleep quality. Even if you think like, ⁓ this glass of wine or this glass of whiskey or bourbon will help me wind down and fall asleep. Alcohol destroys your sleep system. So unfortunately, you know, I'm not gonna tell you to never drink again, but you gotta cut the glass of wine to wind down habit. Then I want to take a look at, and a lot of us have these wearable devices that can give us some information about our sleep, but I want to find out how much sleep in a 24-hour period your body can give you. That is your sleep ability. And we usually track that over seven days. So I'm not just curious about Monday and Tuesday. I want to know every single day of the week, what does your map look like? And then we divide that by seven because we average it out over time. And we figure out what is your body's sleep ability. People with sleep issues often maybe are able to average six hours of sleep every night. But then we figure out what is your sleep opportunity? You are able to sleep six hours a night, but are you laying in bed eight and a half hours every night? If so, you have a two and a half hour mismatch every single night. That your body is screwing around with. So it's actually making everything get wonky. So we tailor it to you to figure out what is your actual sleepability given some historical data. Now we're matching up your opportunity with that. So I say, all right, BB, you on average are sleeping six hours a night. ⁓ you want to wake up at 8 a.m.? Cool. Your new bedtime, 2 a.m. And you're like, crazy lady, I don't like this one bit. How on earth am I gonna stay awake until two o'clock in the morning? But there's two really important things that happen. One, I just gave you a new problem. So instead of when am I gonna go to bed? When am I gonna go to bed? When am I gonna go to bed? When am I gonna go to bed? It's how on earth do I stay awake until 2 a.m.? I'm so tired. I could fall asleep right now. I'm so exhausted. I'm gonna sleep as soon as my head hits the pillow. So all of your mental chatter has done a 180 and starts to be supportive of sleep. And then because we've done some sleep restriction, now you're hungrier for sleep. We've taken away your opportunity to dink around, and your body knows, my goodness, the second I have the opportunity to sleep, I'm gonna take it. So usually in about a week, if we've struck that sweet spot. Your body starts to learn to fall asleep and stay asleep when you have the opportunity. And then we work together as soon as you've got 80% sleep efficiency, meaning like hypothetically 2 to 8 a.m. when you're allowed to be sleeping. We're not napping, we're not sleeping in, we're not going to bed early, you are sticking to that. If 80% of that time you are sleeping, you earned yourself 15 more minutes for the next week. And then on and on we go until you can expand back to let's say eight hours a night. Wow. It's so fun. It's so cool to see people that have struggled with sleep for like thirty years and come in and you think that you're gonna be so exhausted in your first week. And I've had people that are like, I slept five and a half hours straight every night this week. I feel amazing. That is incredible. It's cool. It's really, really Yes. Wow. Where have you been all my life? Yeah. Come on in. Let's figure it out. I didn't even know that there were like sleep, like sleep therapy. I didn't even know that existed. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not super common. ⁓ I feel like a lot of times, you know, people will go to a sleep clinic, do a sleep study. That's when we deal with more of like the physiological neural neurological issues like sleep apnea or sleep wake disorders or restless legs and things like that. ⁓ and then a lot of times they're like, Well, if we can just fix this, then the other part will get better. And that's not always the case. And then a lot of people just resort to sleeping pills, which it's fine if you need it. Like I'd rather you get sleep in some way instead of going along sleep deprived, but there's an all natural remedy that just takes a couple of weeks of discipline and then it's a tool that you can have in your pocket for the rest of your life. Yeah, that's so amazing. It's fun. It's really fun. And I mean I got into it because I've struggled with insomnia and cycles my whole entire life. And so, you know, as much as I know all the tips and tricks, you better believe sometimes it's three o'clock in the morning and I'm praying to the sleep fairies to just let me rest, please let me fall back asleep and then you know, I hit three or four days of that and I'm like, Come on, Chrissy, you know you're doing. Get out of bed. Like you know what's good, just go do it and then truly without fail in a day or two, I'm reset again and I'm like, why did I it's it's hard to get out of bed at three o'clock in the morning if you're not sleeping, but we gotta do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so then just starting those new patterns, it seems like. Mm-hmm. Yes. When did it switch from like adults because you you mentioned your book, so how did that transition from, you know, you as an adult helping adults and then all of a sudden Now you're helping adults help their babies. Like tell me about that. Yeah. So, you know, I'd figured out some of this sleep stuff and how critically important sleep is for mental health. And in the training that I did, they shared quite a lot because it was a therapy training, that eighty percent of adults with a mental health diagnosis also have sleep issues. So it's a crazy high correlation. And what came first, the chicken or the egg, like it it's hard to really tease that out. But we know if you are not sleeping, you are not thriving mentally. And so then I had babies and I wasn't sleeping because my baby wasn't sleeping. And I've always been incredibly confident. I've been self assured. I've always been a little bit of a perfectionist. So I had a little bit of that like anxious perfectionism, but all of a sudden I had a baby and experienced depression and anxiety. And I was already a therapist before I had kids. So I thought like I can't get postpartum depression because I have all the tools. And that was so cute of young little me thinking that I should just be immune to mental health challenges because I'm a therapist. But there we were. And I realized very quickly that if I could at least be sleeping, I could start to put other pieces into place to figure out my own mental health puzzle. And then, you know, the I knew that if I could thrive as a mom, I would set my child up for success. Because our babies deserve parents that are thriving. And so at first it was just kind of a passion of read everything I could get my hands on to figure out how to get my daughter to sleep well. Then I had another baby and kind of started all over again and became the friend in the friend group that helped everybody with their babies. And then we moved to Las Vegas. And again, I became the friend in the friend group that everybody was asking their baby questions. And I was like, you know what? There's there's probably If I want to help the postpartum mental health journey at scale, the best thing I can do is help moms reclaim their sleep and just have some of those gentle nudges in early motherhood that like, hey, you still matter. I know you think you don't matter anymore because now all that matters is this baby. But I always say the best thing that a mother can be for her children is well. So if you are thriving as a mom, like genuinely thriving. We're not talking like selfishness and you know whatever, but like if you are genuinely thriving as a mother, your children will benefit. So true. Mm. Beautifully said about babies deserving good parents. Mm-hmm. Or parents that are thriving. I think, wow, that's so true and you said it so well. ⁓ thank you. And it seems like the book kind of falls in the middle of like you're saying, you know, the mom, like if if she's taking care of herself, that's good. And so sometimes it's like, I'm just gonna let my baby cry. Cry cry it out. And then others it's like, ⁓ no, I can't do that. I have to go to the baby and attend to the baby right away. Where do you fall in that spectrum? Yeah, there you know, there's so much misinformation online and so much pressure and shame and overwhelm. And so I fall somewhere in the middle that, you know, the sleep training of the eighties kind of got a bad rap because it was more of that rigid cry it out of like close the door at seven PM and I'll come back in the morning and whatever happens, happens and eventually you'll figure it out. ⁓ I think that's Too rigid, ⁓ doesn't necessarily account for baby's needs and it doesn't sit well with a lot of modern parents. But I think we've swung the pendulum too far the other direction, where parents think that it's their job to make sure that their child is never uncomfortable. And so I like to remind parents that sleep is a skill, sleeping well is a skill. It's a a critically important one. And every aspect of development includes some level of protest. So it's how much protest is productive for the child and is actually helping them learn. You know, if you've ever put a kid in swimming lessons, there's gonna be some protest as you get used to the water that's too cold, or I don't wanna dunk my head, I don't wanna blow bubbles, I got water up my nose. Like there are challenges when you do swim lessons. But it's literally a life saving intervention for I think most modern parents put their kids in swim lessons at some point, you know, especially if we live in Las Vegas. We're not gonna we're not gonna skip the pool because little Tyler didn't wanna do swimming lessons, you know? And so also like learning to walk, we're gonna fall, doing tummy time, there's gonna be some protest. I think you and I ⁓ protested in early careers and practicum and in school I protested. Kind of a lot in calculus. And it's like protest and navigating that can actually be a really helpful part of the parenting paradigm where we as parents get to say, I know that you're uncomfortable, but I know that you've got this. I'm gonna watch and wait. And if you've got it, I'm gonna give you a chance to figure out that you've got it. If you actually need help, if you don't got it, then I'm gonna dive in and I'm gonna help you. And that's a very individualized, nuanced part of parenting that I'm just reminding parents, you can start that from month two, you know, where we're not jumping right into sleep training, but like you have a two month old that is doing tummy time and gets mad. You're making that judgment call. Is was that enough practice for today? Or like, ⁓ you got it, you're bobbing your head, but you got it. I'm gonna give you thirty more seconds. And so what I'm sure you see this in therapy, Kim, but one of the downsides that I've seen more and more in my last fifteen years of being a therapist is that kids are less resilient year over year over year. They do not have the tools to be equipped with discomfort and in the mommy will help you, mommy will save you. We're unintentionally teaching our kids like you kind of don't really know how to do it, but lucky for you, you've got me and I'll handle it for you. Which has the illusion of attachment and safety and security. But actually what we want to teach our kids is you got this girlfriend, love you, I'm here for you. If you're really in a bind, I got you. But if you're not actually in a bind, you got this. Mm-hmm. That's huge. Yeah, remind me how old your kids are, Kim. I don't have kids. Neither one of us have kids. ⁓ my gosh. I'm totally talking to you like you guys have kids. I thought you did for some reason. No, but I like I just picture myself as the child. You know, what was that like? I we come from a big family. So I don't know that that went in the eighties well, seventies for me. It's like none of that was happening. You know, they were told something else. So like even you talking about that. Where it's like this false sense of attachment or having the pendulum swing from one side, you know, in the eighties to now completely different. It's like I'm gonna do the exact opposite of what my parents did. I'm gonna be there for my kids a hundred percent. Yep. And it shows up in it's too much. Yep so it's kind of doing still the same thing, but the parent did just it just looks different, but it's two sides of the same coin. Yeah, yeah. And I think we're moving towards kind of recalibration, but it was It was too harsh in the eighties, it's too gentle now. And you know, hopefully we can find this middle ground where we have an appropriate level of empowering our children and building some of that resilience. Do you find that parents that they fight that? Or like that they need to do first their own therapy before they can move towards that, or what does that look like? Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, I mean, of course I'm biased as a therapist, but I think we should all be in therapy. We all have work to do. And like I said, the best thing that you can be for your children is well. And so there's so much self awareness that I think is important for women and mothers and in relationships and with colleagues and partners and coworkers to know like, here's what my instinct is, but like, where does that come from? You know, and I think especially in the parenting space, we talk a lot about like trust your gut, trust your gut, trust your gut. And a lot of people that are anxious perfectionists don't know how to trust their gut. And a lot of times, you know, I like to remind people that just because something is instinct does not mean that it's the right choice. You know, I get get yourself on a playground when some four year old bully pushes your kid, you're gonna have an instinct. To go teach that old boy a lesson. And that is not what you should do. Right? And so we're not parents, but we're ants. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So we get it. We want to go Yeah. Yeah. Steal that fire truck right on back. And what is it? How do you like to be pushed, Tucker? It's like, no. We are refraining from acting on our instincts all the time. And so knowing What you know, in therapy I always talk about like the instinct that is calm and grounded and guided versus the instinct that's heightened that has the oomph and the red behind it, you know, one of them you listen to, one of them you also listen into, but it's a little bit more like, huh, where's where's that coming from? What is this about? Mm-hmm. Yes. Is it chaos? Or is it yeah. Or is wisdom? Yeah. Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm. So you're talking about instincts and parents and you know, not listening always to that instinct. What if that instinct is telling them like that they're like they're starting to realize, okay, this is my nervous system and my instinct is to go do this, but I'm really I really should be doing this other thing. But for some reason they just can't get there and then now they're even more sleep deprived now they've got this new baby and all the things are happening, that sleep deprivation, does it amplify that quick response? Yeah, you know, I think, yes, we know that being sleep deprived makes us act much more impulsively. It slows down the logical thinking part of our brain. And so we're much more likely, excuse me, to act on impulse. I think especially in the sleep world, especially in the parenting space, you know, New parents deserve good resources that are empowering that they can trust. So that's honestly that's what I'm the most proud of in my book is I try to just make a case for sleep matters. It doesn't have to look this certain way. So I I say a couple times, good sleep is really, really important. How you get there doesn't matter as long as you get there. And so, you know, it's not necessarily this one size fits all formula. It's a framework. And so that can help parents tap into my nervous system is activated, you know, because my baby's fussing for five minutes. But I know from reading this that it's actually okay to hang back for a minute. You know, I talk about some of the markers that we're looking for to let you know, like, is this protest productive or is this a sign that They might need some support. And so if you have some other framework that you can latch onto with, and it doesn't have to be me, you know, if it's an expert that makes you feel good, they're data driven, they're not just making up crap. When you hear the way they talk about things or talk to other people and engage in the world, is that somebody that lifts you up, that makes you feel inspired and empowered? It could be another sleep consultant or another therapist that has the same overarching message that I do. But if their delivery makes you feel like you're failing, that's not the expert for you to be listening to. So there's part of it that's delivering the right framework, but such a huge part in the parenting space, in the motherhood space, that's having somebody in your corner that reminds you that you are good enough. Because I think as women, like we're so hard on ourselves and then throw parenting into the mix and you know, you need to find resources and experts that you trust to have good information that's evidence based and delivered in a way that empowers you. Mm-hmm. Because then you throw social media into the mix too. And it's like, well, social media says that my baby should be sleeping all night by this time and Everyone's everyone's posting about it and moms, you know, my baby slept through the night and this is what I did and but it's not working for them and everything goes sideways and then these sleep experts maybe add a little bit of shame to it. It's like, ⁓ my gosh, what am I doing that's not right? I must be a bad mom and the cycle continues. Exactly. My favorite chapter title in my book is Everyone's an Expert Now and Everything's On Fire. 'Cause that's how it feels. ⁓ yes. Yes. Yes. ⁓ my goodness. Everything is problem. Everything is terrible. You have to do this, you have to do that, you have to do this, you have to do that. And and sometimes a lot of information is too much information and then you're just kind of spun in circles and like, you know. Especially as sleep comes into the mix cause you can so easily feel kind of at your wit's end, you know, it's like, Well, was it this sleep sock or that sleep sock or seed oils or this formula or that formula or how much ⁓ time outside, how much awake window, how much and it's like, is this just a baby being a baby 'cause they're neurologically brand new? Or am I doing something wrong? And so many parents internalize that. They're like, My baby cried and so I must be failing. And it's like, No, no, no. Your baby has a brand new brain, they're gonna cry. Yes. Yeah. And even like the protest, like you said, we will protest at every stage in life. Mm-hmm. And to know and remember that, ⁓ the baby's protesting because the baby's new to life. Yes. Yeah, you know, a baby's gonna punch themselves in the face and start crying. A baby's gonna cry and be uncomfortable and in pain when they pop a tooth. And that's one of the things that people are always like, What what teething remedies? What teething remedies? And yeah, I have a couple of tricks up my sleeve, but like it's kinda just one of those things that teething hurts for a minute and we've all been there and we've all done it and it's uncomfortable and we will all survive teething pain. So it just As much as you want to get your baby out of discomfort, their gums are gonna be red and swollen when a tooth pops through. That just is what it is. Mm-hmm. It's knowing your own window of tolerance and remembering that your baby has a window of tolerance. Yes. Yes. And it is one of the most loving things we can do to give our children an opportunity to expand their window of tolerance. That was mind blowing when I first started by Mike. Why wouldn't a baby have a window of tolerance? Of course a baby's gonna have a window of tolerance, but for some reason that just escaped my mind. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause they're so little. So we you know, and in some ways, like, yes, it's our job to like care for them and keep them comfortable, but like to a point, you know. I I remember as the first time mom driving literally a mile away To go to a doctor's appointment and pulling over four times to give the baby her pacifier back before I realize like this is actually significantly more dangerous. Like I'm trying to find a spot to pull over, I'm unbuckling, I'm getting in the back, I'm giving it like I'm distracted. Like I actually need to just keep on driving. She's gonna be okay for one mile, screaming in the backseat. I I gotta just get to my destination. Yes. And just a second ago you said it's the most loving thing that we can do, but some parents, is it that it's their own discomfort or because somebody's like, ⁓ my gosh, I can't let my baby do that. They're suffering. You know, that's just so cruel that you're doing that. But you just said, but that's loving. So how can we shift our minds to that loving view? Because I I agree with you. Yeah, I think so much of us it is about setting up the foundation. So if you are Doing something because it's conscientious. You have learned about it. You've read about it. There's a method to the madness. You're not just letting your baby cry because you can't be bothered right now. You are looking at big picture. This is what I am doing this for. You know, I don't just sit my kids down in front of homework and think like, you know, do it. It's like, well, there I believe in homework. Like there's homework for a reason. And so if you understand what it is that we're going for, then your modality or your methodology can fit within that. And so when you realize that every aspect of a child's development will be benefited by getting optimal sleep, you realize like sleep training, even if there's protest, is an act of love. Getting good sleep promotes their physical development. It makes their bones grow stronger and their brain grow and their lungs develop. Good sleep benefits their mental health. They're, you know, lower rates of depression and anxiety and learning disability. Good sleep boosts attachment of mom and baby to strengthen that relationship. It improves their social development. They make better friendships. Even in the baby stage, you know, we do this social relating and this like contagious crying. So babies react to other babies that are always stressed out in a more standoffish way. So even from a young age, your baby has better social relating skills if they are calm and content and they're more likely to be calm and content if they're well rested. And so even just in the attachment, the eye contacts that we see between mom and baby, it's very different if you have a baby that's grumpy and fussing and crying all the time versus a baby that's happy and content. Any mom will say, Well, of course I love my baby just the same, but the small indicators are different. You know, the deep sighs, the like, what? You know, versus like, hello, I love you, ⁓ my sweet little guy, ⁓ you're so sweet. Mommy loves you so much. So every interaction every day is different if you are well rested versus sleep deprived. Wow. So pretty much if me as an adult now, I can look back and kind of start to form a picture as to how my first couple years look like if my sleep was address my sleep was addressed or if I was comforted in those times by allowing me to cry Just enough to stay within my window of tolerance or just letting me cry and cry and cry. That's that attachment, right? That you're talking about. Yes. And sleep training as a process when we're allowing room for protest. Like I also want, you know, because there can be a lot of noise in the the sleep training space. My method is 10 minute bursts with support, watching for certain cues for three days. So we're not talking about, you know. ⁓ Leave a baby to cry and cry and cry and cry forever. It's a very short term intervention that has kind of a start and a stop and checks along the way. And so it really all of the you know attachment research that like, ⁓ sleep training damages attachment, it no research has found that. Mm-hmm. That's amazing. It's blowing my mind. I mean, I don't have kids. And so I think listening to this, it's helping me just know myself a little bit more. How would you say, like everything that you shared, I love all the information, even though I don't have kids. How would you say that that can translate to all to our audience or BB know is how is that translating to you, BB, like as she's talking about this, like what is your takeaway? I would say same. Even though I don't have kids, I'm relating all of that to myself and if I'm sleeping well and resting well, my relationship with my husband, my relationship with my siblings, with everybody will look different than if I'm not well rested. Because I will be moody, grumpy, not be able to focus, all those things that you're saying. Yes, for a baby it's nice to get started as a newborn, but we can get started now, ⁓ Whatever age you are. Mm-hmm. Yeah. One of my favorite books is Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep. ⁓ and he has the best line in it. I should go back and memorize it, but he says something to the effect that there have been literally thousands of medical research studies that have examined sleep in some way, shape, or form, and not a single study has ever concluded that sleep isn't important. Good sleep benefits every single system in your brain and body. Every single function, every single metric of health and well-being is influenced by sleep. And so, like you said, Bibi, like it doesn't you don't have to prioritize sleep if you have a newborn. And no matter who you are, where you are, what you're doing, your life and well-being will be improved if you can improve your sleep. Mm. I even think about our mom, she's eighty, and she just broke a bone in two places. She broke a pelvic bone, her pelvic bone, and so then every time I notice she takes a nap, she wakes up and she can walk a longer distance. Which is crazy. The first time it happened I was like, There's no way that thirty minute nap helped her physically. Every single time. She'll be so exhausted in so much pain. She goes to sleep and she is a new person. Yeah. It's sleep is so restorative. And it again helps me to reframe sleep is restorative for me as an adult. Why wouldn't it be also for a baby? Meaning we need to really prioritize that the baby gets sleep, because if the baby's sleeping, then that means that I can also sleep, which means if the baby can show up better socially with other babies. then of course I can also show up better as a mom, as a partner, you know, the people around me. I don't know why I just separate that maybe because I don't have kids, but I just don't seem to think that. But yes, the way you're wording it is exactly how I'm putting it together too. Yeah, yeah. It's just I mean sleep is the ⁓ kindest, most loving thing that we can give ourselves. It matters and so and For moms and babies, like your well being kind of ping pongs off of each other. And so a baby will thrive when their parents are thriving. And if mom's well rested, then she gets along better with dad. And if he's well rested, then he does better at work and he's not as stressed when he comes home. And then they're not bickering. And you know, it's it all it's just the cascade. Yes. One flows into another, into another. Yep. So if we have parents listening right now are moms that are just so exhausted and they feel like they're failing. And I know that you mentioned that earlier. It's like, you know, I can't be doing that. I'm a therapist. I should I have all the tools. What would you want them to hear first? I think always know that we're doing our best. And so kind of give yourself that grace. Like I am doing the best that I can. What is one thing that I can focus on? You know, it's like that old saying, like, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? Like we gotta just find the one next thing and any positive step will have benefit because like you said, one good thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another. And so start small, start with where you're at. Mm-hmm. Would you say that this plays into the minimization of discomfort? Like I'm gonna start small, I'm feeling uncomfortable about this, and that's okay. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. You're starting small. It's bit it's worth it. Might be a little bit uncomfortable. Great. Do it anyway. Mm-hmm. Yes. Do it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a saying I have a lot with my kids. You know, I can't like you're uncomfortable. Fantastic. Do it anyway. Like you've got this. It is great to be uncomfortable and to learn and grow and power through and have resilience. So that's that's awesome. I would not expect anything else. Yes. And why would you say that that's so important? I think, you know, I'd I have four daughters. And so I think just kind of teaching them that they are powerful women. And and it produces what? Like what do they get if they are powerful women? I mean it's self re it's self-reliance, it's resilience, it's self-efficacy, it's competence, it's self-esteem. You know, especially with little girls, there's so much focus on, you know, being beautiful. And, you know, I want my girls to know, like, yes, congratulations. You are beautiful. And you're also strong and you're smart and you're funny and you're dynamic and you're hardworking and, you know, all of these other things too. And I really think You know, there's a study that came out of Harvard not too long ago, and it talked about the correlation between confidence and chores. And, you know, parents that get make their kids do chores, these kids have way better long term outcomes. And it was like a 70 year study that, you know, through all these different parenting phases, all these different kind of eras, that's the one thing that has held steady. as we look at like what is the difference between these kids that are confident and resilient and go do things. It's the kids that have had to work and, you know, had to they haven't just gotten everything handed to them. And they realize like, ⁓ I can load the dishwasher. I can start a load of laundry. I remember even with my three year old, you know, when she was tall enough to kind of put the soap in, like my kids love starting a load of laundry because they can pour the soap and push the buttons and shut the door. And I did it. Yeah. And so those small early frequent doses of look what I can do is so good for them. And realizing, and I mean I think this for my clients all the time, like realizing that discomfort will not kill me. I can be okay. What tools and resources do I have to navigate this? Mm-hmm. It really speaks into what you said earlier where You know, we have parents that are currently wanting to do everything for their kids. And if they're doing everything, ⁓ you're you're uncomfortable, I'll do it for you, they miss out on this part of being resilient. They miss out on learning how to speak up for themselves when they need to, being able to stand on their own two feet as they get older. And even through every stage of life, having these different things come up, you know, they can stand up for themselves, the kids can, because they've learned along the way, ⁓ I can put the soap in. The dishwasher or into the laundry. Those small things end up being really big. Yeah. It's empowering them. Yes. Yeah, 100%. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is so awesome. I am so glad that you spent this time with us. ⁓ what do you think that one thing, so as we're closing, what's one thing that you were hoping that parents would realize or learn or take away once they read your book? Yeah. Great question. You know, I think because the parenting space is so polarizing, I'd maybe add on to the last thing that I said that like give yourself some grace that you are doing your best and other parents are doing the best that they have with the frameworks that they have. And so just let's be kind to each other. You know, you tune in to your kids, be the best, most whole, complete, thriving version of yourself. And give others the grace to do the same and let's uplift each other. And you know, we always say it takes a village. Let's be that village for each other and find and embrace wellness together, even if it's different than what your neighbor does. Mm-hmm. Cheering each other on instead of tearing each other down. Yes. Yes. So well said. Yeah. That is awesome. Anything else, BB, that came up for you that you thought that you thought of? I was just taking it all in. I love all the information you have. I can't wait to read your books. Thank you. And yes, you I just have you are very gifted. And I love all the information that you've provided to us. Thank you. So I I have nothing to add. It was perfect. Thanks so much for having me. It was so fun to chat with you guys. Yes. How can people find you? Yeah, ⁓ I'm all over social media. So the peaceful sleeper is the name of the book, and then all social channels are the dot peaceful dot sleeper. And then the website is the peaceful sleeper dot com. Awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time and spending that with us. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yes, thank you. Thank you so much.