Latest / Libido Lounge / We Never Said What Cheating Was — And That Was the Problem with Courtney Boyer, M.Ed., M.S

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We Never Said What Cheating Was — And That Was the Problem with Courtney Boyer, M.Ed., M.S · Libido Lounge

• 0:00
  I would say that the common theme when I have couples reach out to me is this sense of
• 0:05
  betrayal.
• 0:06
  Courtney Boyer is a therapist turned relationship coach, writer, and speaker whose
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  work centers on love, desire, and authenticity.
• 0:15
  Courtney is the author of Not Tonight Honey and the book opens.
• 0:20
  She's been featured in the New York Post, Cosmopolitan, The Huffington Post, and BBC
• 0:25
  Radio Live.
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  Drawing on her background in mental health and sex therapy, she brings a unique blend of
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  professional expertise and lived experience to conversations about relationship and identity.
• 0:38
  And so that that betrayal, you know, it's a path that is looks different for a lot of
• 0:43
  couples.
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  Couples.
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  And now I feel disconnected.
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  I feel betrayed.
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  I feel upset, angry, all of those things.
• 0:52
  Yeah.
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  I would say, usually, it's a struggle between, like, an overwhelming sense of guilt, but then
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  also confusion.
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  And I feel really bad that I hurt you because I love you.
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  I will say if you are below a five, you're gonna be wasting your time and money.
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  You don't seem that motivated to wanna invest in this relationship is creating emotional
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  safety.
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  There are so many scenarios where people just like don't kinda stop to think about it because
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  it doesn't feel so obvious.
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  I would say the common the first step that I like to implement or have, like, bring
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  attention to
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  Hey, everybody.
• 1:31
  Welcome back to another episode on the lounge.
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  I'm your host, doctor Diane.
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  I am so excited to talk to Courtney today.
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  As you heard in the intro, she has a beautiful robust background.
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  And one of the things we're talking about today, as you also heard, is the concept of
• 1:47
  infidelity.
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  And this is a really important concept I think because a lot of times people think of this as
• 1:54
  physical cheating, and of course this can be.
• 1:57
  But a lot of times relationships suffer from not having boundaries or agreements established
• 2:02
  from the beginning, and maybe one person is caught texting or sexting or flirting or even
• 2:08
  just looking at another woman that passes by and having a more emotional or a mental
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  infidelity type relationship that one partner might even name as infidelity, and another
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  partner might not even name it because it's never even been agreed upon to the beginning.
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  So we're gonna talk to Courtney about what really defines, you know, what is infidelity
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  between couples as well as some initial things that you can start to do to communicate around
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  this and to start to repair this this type of scenario.
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  So thank you so much, Courtney, for being with me today.
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  Thank you so much for having me.
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  It's a pleasure.
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  And let's let's jump right in.
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  So Okay.
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  You know, as I just mentioned, like, infidelity, I think, is so misunderstood in
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  many ways as as far as how it's defined.
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  So when people reach out to you, what are you find what do you find, like, is a confusing
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  thing about, like, you know, about infidelity in general?
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  Like, is it is it what I'm, like, suggesting in, you know, kind of this intro, like, around,
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  hey, one partner is defining it in a different way.
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  What is all kind of comprised, really, of these infidelity situations that come up in your
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  work?
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  I would say that the common theme when I have couples reach out to me is this sense of
• 3:24
  betrayal.
• 3:25
  And so that that betrayal, you know, it's a path that is looks different for a lot of
• 3:31
  couples, but it's that sense of, oh, I had this expectation, and that expectation was not met,
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  and in fact, it was breached.
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  And now I feel disconnected.
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  I feel betrayed.
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  I feel upset, angry, all of those things.
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  And so I would say that that's the common thread.
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  Okay.
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  And so and so one person is feeling betrayed.
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  What is the other person?
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  Is there, like, guilt or, like, what is the most common emotion on the other side, would
• 4:00
  you say?
• 4:01
  Yeah.
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  I would say usually it's a struggle between, like, an overwhelming sense of guilt, but then
• 4:07
  also confusion.
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  Mhmm.
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  Of like, ah.
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  I mean, yes, it was wrong how I went about it, but there was some type of need typically not
• 4:17
  being met.
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  And not not that that's an excuse, but in their minds, it was like a justification of, I I
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  tried to talk to you about it, or I didn't feel safe to talk to you about it, and now I acted
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  in this way, and I feel really bad that I hurt you because I love you, but I also it was nice
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  getting that need met.
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  Most of the time
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  is how that plays out.
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  So I'm curious.
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  So a couple comes to you for the first time and you're hearing their story.
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  Right?
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  And you're hearing, okay, well, one person feels betrayed.
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  This other person feels justified on some level, like you said, for maybe a need or some
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  other reason, even if they know it was wrong.
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  Mhmm.
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  Are there themes that you see to be common where it's like, oh, if a couple says this or
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  if a person says this versus if they say that, there's more of a likelihood of it being
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  actually repaired.
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  Can you tell oftentimes like, so the question is, like, can you tell oftentimes early on in
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  that conversation who's gonna have success with repairing it or not?
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  Yeah.
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  One of the questions I always ask couples, I said, on a scale of zero to ten, zero being
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  absolutely I don't even wanna be here right now, 10 being I will do anything to to make
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  this repair this relationship, how motivated are you?
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  And I would say most the majority of the time, the couples I work with are really honest.
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  And there's usually I will say if you are below a five, you're gonna be wasting your time and
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  money.
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  I just will flat out say that.
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  Like, we can meet, but I you don't seem that motivated to wanna invest in this relationship,
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  because that's what you have to do.
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  If you are even if you're not overcoming a betrayal, or an infidelity, or whatever you
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  wanna call it, Relationships require investment.
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  They require intention and work.
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  And then a lot of people put that off.
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  So it's kind of like, oh gosh, I have gained a 100 pounds that I didn't wanna gain, and the
• 6:11
  doctor's saying, you either lose it or you're gonna die, and I get to make that choice.
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  But they've been saying that for years, like, you need to lose some weight.
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  It's getting bad.
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  You know, you need to and now it's to the point of of it breaking.
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  And so you get to decide how motivated am I to continue to invest in this relationship.
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  Yeah.
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  I couldn't agree more.
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  It's like anything else we see in in life.
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  Right?
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  Where it's like there's that point where it's like there is there is time, there's effort,
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  money.
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  There's all these things that take to not only fix it, but to keep it healthy to begin with,
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  just like And it comes down to is this important and valuable enough to to, you know,
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  to actually invest in it.
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  Yeah.
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  So I love, love, love, love that.
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  Now, from a standpoint of of the process, right, do you see obviously, like, there's a
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  lot of hurt.
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  We don't expect in your 100, you know, pound example, like, you know, it's like, oh, yeah.
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  Like, I'm gonna see results immediately.
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  Like, this kind of stuff is like, it's it's a process.
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  We're re we're forgiving.
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  We're reconfiguring our agreements.
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  Right.
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  But is there anything that you've seen that is like a really common, like, initial first step?
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  Like, do people need to get to a point where they are, like, say, talking about it and and
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  communicating around it?
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  Do they need to just forgive?
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  Like, is there, like, a common, like, first step in infidelity that you see as as being
• 7:32
  important?
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  I would say the common the first step that I like to implement or have, like, bring
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  attention to, it doesn't mean it happens immediately, but is creating emotional safety.
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  And so for both partners, I think a lot of times the the quote cheater is demonized like,
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  well, it doesn't matter what their needs are.
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  Like, they they screwed up and like they're gonna, you know, pay and they're they should
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  suffer and all of those things.
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  So like, my needs matter the most now.
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  And I think that it's important that we're able to, you know, navigate how can both partners
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  feel safe.
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  And maybe that's okay.
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  We don't we don't talk about the betrayal or we don't talk about the issue outside of sessions.
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  Or we talk about it, but we have to check-in with each other beforehand.
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  So finding ways to set the couple up for success, so that they're not overwhelmed with
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  all of these feelings, and like, where do I begin?
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  How often do you find that one of the problems is just kind of like a lack of agreement around
• 8:34
  certain things from the beginning?
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  Like, because I think most couples go into, like, a monogamous relationship and being like,
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  okay, well, sex is off the table.
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  Right?
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  So it's like, we don't necessarily even have that conversation, but there is, like, some
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  level in monogamy around, like, we're both committing to that.
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  Right.
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  But, you know, then I've, like, I've talked to people sometimes who, like, don't always agree
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  that kissing is cheating.
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  Right?
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  I've talked to other people that it's like, okay, well, you can flirt with random people,
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  but as long as it's not like your coworker or somebody that you see regularly, like, you
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  flirt with, like, the barista at a coffee shop, it's no big deal.
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  Right?
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  Right.
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  So I feel like we enter it sometimes into these monogamous relationships almost with this
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  assumption of like, my rules of monogamy are the same as your rules just because we're
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  monogamous.
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  So how often do you find that that is like a problem where it's like or that is what creates
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  the problem is just like different agreements, and we both thought we were agreeing to the
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  same thing, but we actually weren't.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yes.
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  I think that there's these assumptions and expectations that we have, and then we put on
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  our partner.
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  And a lot of it is based in, around this reality that so few couples know how to, one,
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  communicate well.
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  But let communicate well about sex and sexuality issues.
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  And there's usually a lot of shame around this topic because, sure, it's easy if you're a
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  monogamous couple to be like, hey, don't bang the neighbor.
• 10:02
  Okay.
• 10:02
  Well, yeah, that's good job you.
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  But what about can I watch porn?
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  Can I does it matter what kind of porn?
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  Like, do we need to like, there it the whole concept of infidelity and cheating and betrayal
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  is such a vast or like following models on Instagram, or following, you know, guys with
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  their shirts off, or reading smutty books.
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  Like, there are so many scenarios where people just, like, don't would kinda stop to think
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  about it because it doesn't feel so obvious, and they are don't they're so ashamed of, well,
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  yeah, I do kinda like to watch porn.
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  I do like listening to a smutty book and, you know, whatever.
• 10:42
  Yeah.
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  I I agree.
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  And I think that's a huge, you know, component of it.
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  Like, when you bring up the shame around, well, maybe we're not even bringing this up because
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  it's just so in the darkness and it's something we do in private.
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  And then when our partner finds out about it and they feel betrayed, now we're feeling not
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  only like, well, I didn't even know that that was technically something you even want to do,
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  but now I'm feeling like double shame around it.
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  Exactly.
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  Which then, like, is a very vicious sword that doesn't, like, make us want to bring it to the
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  table to to talk about it.
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  So how do you, like, begin?
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  And I know a lot of times when people come to you, there are levels of feeling like something
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  is wrong.
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  But it's kind of a two part question here because, like, one, when people are, like,
• 11:23
  trying to renegotiate their boundaries after there is a was a betrayal, you know, how do
• 11:28
  they do that?
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  But also, like, how do you inspire couples to, like, listen to something like this and be
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  like, oh, gosh.
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  We've never talked about our agreements before.
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  Like, I think we're in agreement, but maybe we're not.
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  Because I do think there's a huge like, anything we do in relationships and hell, the
• 11:43
  huge, like, preventative thing we can do too around, like So so two part question around
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  like, okay, well if something has happened
• 11:51
  Mhmm.
• 11:51
  How do we begin to get back on the table with like actually saying, oh, these are our
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  agreements.
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  This is what I can live by.
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  This is what I'm committing to.
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  And same thing, if we've never met maybe we haven't identified a problem, but we're
• 12:05
  listening to this and like, oh, I don't even know what my partner's doing.
• 12:09
  How can we start from there with saying, okay, maybe there's not a problem that I'm aware of,
• 12:14
  Yeah.
• 12:15
  But how can we have these conversations in a, you know, emotionally safe way?
• 12:21
  Yeah.
• 12:21
  And I think that's important to keep in mind that emotional safety because a lot of
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  relationships don't have that in general.
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  And so then when you bring in this, like, really charged value, you know, based topic,
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  because a lot of, you know, sexuality is value based.
• 12:39
  And so when you are starting to have these conversations, a lot of people take things very
• 12:45
  personally, and it becomes, problematic.
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  And then they don't they don't set up rules to have the conversation before they have the
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  conversation about the conversation they need to have rules about, you know?
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  And so I highly recommend working with a professional that can kind of serve as a third
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  party that can help give you the tools at least the first few times till you're like, oh, okay.
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  I get the kind of the basic premise of how to bring this up and why this is important to me.
• 13:13
  So I would say, be make take an honest inventory.
• 13:17
  Do I feel safe in my relationship in other areas that I feel like I can emotionally
• 13:23
  communicate how I'm feeling?
• 13:25
  Do am I open to receiving things from my partner?
• 13:29
  And I think I do a good job of, you know, being able to reflect back what they're saying and
• 13:34
  not be reactive, not name call, not shame them for what because some of these things are so
• 13:42
  like, here's here's an example.
• 13:44
  I have, you know, some clients who their spouses discover that they've been talking to,
• 13:49
  like, OnlyFan models and or, you know, OnlyFan creators and stuff.
• 13:54
  And they're doing it in a very specific, like, niche or, you know, like, fetish world because
• 13:59
  they are so ashamed to bring that into their marriage and talk to their spouse about it.
• 14:05
  And it's one of those I'm I'm feeling so scared and ashamed because I don't know how to talk to
• 14:10
  you about this because I don't know how I how I even feel about it.
• 14:14
  But I also don't wanna not explore this part of me, you know?
• 14:18
  So it can it can be problematic when we really start to expand out.
• 14:24
  Yeah.
• 14:25
  Do you find that it's it's helpful for people to understand like what those desires are
• 14:30
  serving?
• 14:31
  So like if somebody is like, oh, you find out, okay, it's an OnlyFans page or you find out
• 14:36
  your partner is like watching porn.
• 14:38
  Sometimes I think like then it's like we find this out and it's like there are so many
• 14:42
  assumptions that can get made around like, well, they're not sexually satisfied with me or
• 14:46
  they don't find me hot anymore or like, you know, all these stories.
• 14:50
  So do you find that it's like useful in the beginning to also figure out, like, what is
• 14:55
  behind this?
• 14:56
  Like, what is the why?
• 14:57
  And, you know, oftentimes, it's just as simple as, like, I just get turned on.
• 15:01
  You know?
• 15:02
  Like, do you find that that's, like, valuable, or do you find that, oh, it's like, don't even
• 15:07
  go there until there's enough emotional safety, or does it just depend?
• 15:11
  Yeah.
• 15:12
  I mean, I hate that well, it depends kind of answer.
• 15:15
  Yeah.
• 15:15
  My first thought when you were saying that is, I think that in monogamous relationships, I see
• 15:21
  a lot of entitlement when it comes to our partners.
• 15:26
  So like, I'm entitled to everything here.
• 15:29
  Your fantasies, your desires, possibly your kinks.
• 15:34
  Like, I I wanna know all those, and if you want to explore them outside of this relationship,
• 15:42
  right, that's a big betrayal.
• 15:43
  That's a no go type of thing.
• 15:46
  And so I think that for for some people, they want to especially if there's so much shame
• 15:53
  around the fetish or the kink, and they don't know how they personally feel about it, let
• 15:58
  alone if they bringing it, especially if it's an an uncommon thing.
• 16:02
  You know?
• 16:03
  What what if I want my wife to pee on me?
• 16:05
  Like, what if she freaks out?
• 16:07
  What if she thinks I'm a bad person?
• 16:08
  Like, I don't even know how I feel about it.
• 16:10
  I don't know even so there's a lot of unknowns with these types of issues that the person
• 16:15
  struggling with doesn't even know how to answer themselves, let alone if they're getting
• 16:20
  grilled by their spouse who's like, you wanna wear a diaper?
• 16:23
  You wanna do, you know, like, what?
• 16:24
  Like, what?
• 16:25
  And I and I know that these kinda sound extreme, but this is so much more common that
• 16:29
  I'm seeing with a lot of clients is AI interactions, only fans porn, than it is
• 16:35
  actual, like, oh, I hooked up with this girl, like, or this guy when I was, like, on a trip
• 16:40
  recently.
• 16:41
  That is way less common than the first stuff.
• 16:45
  Yeah.
• 16:45
  And I think the AI world is, like, is making it even more that way.
• 16:48
  Like you said, like, there's so many you can look at Reddit sites around like, okay.
• 16:53
  Well, AI is my boyfriend.
• 16:55
  AI is my girlfriend.
• 16:56
  These subreddits.
• 16:57
  Right?
• 16:57
  Whereas, like, clearly, a lot of people are having these deep and intimate relationships
• 17:01
  with their with their AI.
• 17:04
  So it is extremely common.
• 17:06
  I think because there is this this gray area, it's not really, like you said, it's not talked
• 17:11
  about because it's just like, well, why would I bring that up?
• 17:14
  It's, like, technically not cheating.
• 17:16
  So why do I even need to tell you about it?
• 17:18
  Right?
• 17:18
  So there's that that justification.
• 17:21
  I have another question for you, but before I go on, I just do wanna mention one of my
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• 17:31
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• 17:35
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• 17:38
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• 17:39
  Dysfunction and it's a vicious cycle as I imagine you see in your work where it's like,
• 17:43
  oh, all of a sudden, if it's not working perfectly, then she oftentimes in a hetero
• 17:48
  relationship, she often can think like, well, he doesn't think I'm sexy anymore and all these
• 17:54
  other things.
• 17:55
  So there can be this real pulling apart instead of doing what we're talking about on today's
• 18:00
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• 18:04
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• 19:00
  But then to continue on with my question, so in a situation where people are not, you know, not
• 19:07
  really engaged in these conversations and and just kind of avoiding things altogether.
• 19:13
  And they're not feeling emotionally safe.
• 19:16
  And it's like what are we gonna even begin to do to repair this?
• 19:22
  What do you find is like a is like there are like a conversation, like, safe starter where
• 19:29
  it's like, okay.
• 19:30
  Like, do you ever find, for example, that starting with something by being like, if you
• 19:36
  don't like what I'm going to say, like like like if I'm going to tell my partner about a
• 19:40
  new fetish, would it be helpful for me to start by saying something like, if you don't like
• 19:45
  what I'm going to say or if you're surprised or you're shocked, this is how I actually want you
• 19:51
  to respond to me.
• 19:52
  Like, are there ways that we can kind of set up these conversations in a system Mhmm.
• 19:57
  For more success that you have found?
• 20:00
  Yeah.
• 20:01
  One of my favorite ways to deliver uncomfortable or, you know, bad news is to lead
• 20:09
  with that and to and as the the lead, but then ask what they need.
• 20:15
  So for example, hey, I really wanna talk to you about something, but I'm really scared because
• 20:21
  I'm afraid that you're gonna think I'm weird, or like so you have to be vulnerable and share
• 20:25
  why you're nervous, and so all what you're doing right now is you're causing them to lower
• 20:30
  their defenses because we don't want our spouse to be scared to talk to or our partner to be
• 20:34
  scared to talk to us.
• 20:35
  We want them to feel safe.
• 20:36
  So then that makes it it hopefully, that nurturing, you know, side of like, oh, I wanna
• 20:41
  be supportive.
• 20:42
  I wanna listen to what they say.
• 20:43
  But we're also kind of on alert of like, okay, they're gonna tell me something and like, you
• 20:49
  know, reassure.
• 20:50
  Hey, this I haven't done anything.
• 20:51
  I hopefully, this is the case.
• 20:53
  You know, I haven't done anything.
• 20:55
  I'm not dying.
• 20:56
  Like, I just I just find myself for years or for months or whatever it is, and I and I wanna
• 21:01
  be honest and open with you.
• 21:04
  So how would you like me to communicate that information to you?
• 21:08
  Do you want me to write it?
• 21:09
  Do you want me to text you?
• 21:10
  Do you wanna sit back to back?
• 21:12
  And so I speak it out, but you don't have to look at me when I say it.
• 21:17
  Do you wanna go for a walk?
• 21:18
  And that way we can so giving them options.
• 21:21
  I I like the walk option because then you don't have to look stare at somebody and have them
• 21:26
  see their reaction.
• 21:27
  But also, it's a bilateral stimulation when you are, you know, moving your feet, and that
• 21:32
  allows the brain to have both hemispheres on on board as opposed to just the, what the you
• 21:38
  know, we're freaking out.
• 21:40
  Yeah.
• 21:40
  Yeah.
• 21:41
  That's really good advice.
• 21:42
  I like the back to back option too.
• 21:44
  I think sometimes there's just this, like, natural thing where it's like, we're hearing
• 21:48
  something that's shocking, it's hard to keep the face neutral.
• 21:52
  Great.
• 21:52
  You know, and the last thing that we wanna do that's helpful to the you know, that that could
• 21:56
  be hurtful for the conversation is to have our partner see an expression that is of shock.
• 22:02
  Because of course then, like, that's when it's like, oh, you know, the guilt and the self
• 22:05
  shaming and all that, you know, can happen.
• 22:08
  So just by walking or the back to back, I think that does so much for keeping things, you know,
• 22:14
  keeping that out of it and just making it a safer space to be like, okay, just this is new
• 22:18
  information and I need to process it and it doesn't mean anybody's wrong or doing anything
• 22:23
  that is Right.
• 22:23
  Blameful or shameful or any of that, just that it's normal for human beings to, like, need
• 22:29
  moments to process things that might be surprising.
• 22:32
  So love, love, love that.
• 22:33
  And we're gonna talk more in part two, you guys, about how do we communicate around this,
• 22:39
  how do we create more emotional safety, How to have, you know, more of these conversations
• 22:45
  around boundaries?
• 22:46
  And we're gonna go deeper into our agreements and how to set up agreements and what to do,
• 22:52
  which I know you're an expert at if two people want different agreements.
• 22:56
  I think that's just an important thing and I know it's something you're really skilled at in
• 23:00
  your own relationship around like, k, well, partner a is interested in a different
• 23:04
  agreement than partner b, how do we get on the same page?
• 23:07
  Because that's really common.
• 23:08
  So we're gonna talk about all of that and more in part two.
• 23:11
  So below the show notes, everybody, you'll see as always how to access part two.
• 23:15
  But before we go, I do want people to know how to get ahold of you.
• 23:19
  I do know you have some amazing free resources for people, some of your free pleasure
• 23:25
  practices.
• 23:26
  So just kinda talk to us about all of that, and we'll, of course, have that in the show notes
• 23:30
  as well.
• 23:31
  Sure.
• 23:32
  So you can find me Courtney Boyer Coaching, Courtney with a c, on Instagram, TikTok, all
• 23:38
  the places.
• 23:39
  My website's courtneyboyercoaching.com.
• 23:41
  Both my books are where most books are sold, Audible, Kindle, all those things, Not Tonight
• 23:47
  Honey, and then Opened.
• 23:49
  And, yeah.
• 23:50
  I've got a free, pleasure practices, because I one of the things I'm really passionate about
• 23:55
  is helping people to create more pleasure filled lives, because then they are more joyful
• 24:01
  and happy and bring more excitement and love to the world.
• 24:04
  Amazing.
• 24:05
  Well, thank you.
• 24:06
  We'll have all of that below the show notes, so I definitely would encourage people go get
• 24:09
  those free pleasure practices.
• 24:11
  Check out Courtney's work.
• 24:13
  And it's been a pleasure to have you on the lounge, and I will see everybody again real
• 24:17
  soon.
• 24:18
  Make sure you do hit subscribe if you haven't yet to get our next our next episode that'll be
• 24:23
  coming out next week.
• 24:24
  I'll see you all soon.
• 24:27
  Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge.
• 24:30
  Please don't keep me a secret.
• 24:31
  Please share this with your friends.
• 24:33
  You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, as well as how to work with me at mylibidodoc.com.