Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S3E7: Trauma-Informed Leadership Skills with Julianne Guinasso and Poonam Natha

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Becoming Anchored S3E7: Trauma-Informed Leadership Skills with Julianne Guinasso and Poonam Natha · Becoming Anchored

0:02
Laura: Hi everyone.
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Welcome to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
0:06
My name is Laura Dineen.
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I'm one of your hosts.
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Lauren Jackson is not with us today, but she is with us in spirit.
0:12
Welcome, welcome to this episode.
0:14
So if you are new to the Becoming Anchored podcast, really the
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purpose of this podcast is twofold.
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So first and foremost our humans on this show with y'all.
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So y'all know this, that Lauren and I chat together sometimes and
0:27
then sometimes we have guests, but we really just want to show up
0:29
authentically with our full selves.
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And then we have the amazing privilege of sitting with clients on a daily basis.
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And Lauren and I just truly love this work.
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It's such sacred work.
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work.
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It's such a gift to sit with our clients.
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And it feels like such a privilege.
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So we are here really just to ride the waves of life with y'all.
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And we're super thankful to have you today.
0:51
And I am so, so excited for this episode.
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So real quick disclaimer before we dive right in, this is not therapy.
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If you are wanting therapy in the state of Tennessee, we would love to support you.
1:04
If not, we encourage you to reach out to someone local to you.
1:07
So without further ado, I am here to welcome Julianne and
1:12
Poonam to this show today.
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So thank y'all for being here.
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We're so honored.
1:31
Yeah.
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So I actually follow these gals on Instagram and wanted to have them on
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the show for a few different reasons.
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So before I started anchored, I did not have Very much experience at all
1:44
in business management or leadership.
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And so I have grown a lot just following your account on Instagram.
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And for the record, we'll highlight their offerings at the end of the show.
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But these ladies talk a lot about leadership and management.
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I know that they support a lot of therapists that own group
2:03
practices or perhaps have employees.
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And so we really wanted to cover the topic of trauma informed leadership
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and what that actually means.
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We certainly have values as a company and one of them is practicing from
2:17
a trauma informed lens, right?
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And even on a deeper level, it's like, okay, well, what does that actually mean?
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And so I can't think of better people to join me for discussing this topic.
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So thank you again for being here.
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But this is a big one, right?
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Trauma informed leadership.
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I'm like, okay, where do we start today?
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So yeah, I would love to hear from you all what, well, I
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think there's twofold, right?
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So what makes, a practice trauma informed in your opinions and then how that
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pertains particularly to leadership.
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Poonam: So I think that whenever we look at anything from a trauma informed lens,
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first and foremost, what's most important to me is how do we honor the human across
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from us and their lived experiences.
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So within any practice, centering that value and then taking and
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carrying that into leadership.
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So we honor our patients and our clients.
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by hearing their stories.
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And we do the same for our employees as leaders and
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honoring their lived experiences.
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So when we're leading equitably and leading in a way that really, again,
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honors any wisdom they're bringing in, any experiences they're bringing in, any
3:24
identities they are sharing and holding, and then supporting them and being the
3:29
best versions of themselves so that they can then best support our communities.
3:36
Laura: Absolutely.
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Yeah.
3:38
Yeah.
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And I hear in what you're saying, it's twofold, right?
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So it's both.
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I know that y'all work a lot with support of clients that
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are coming into the practice.
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Like, how do we best first and foremost serve our clients?
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And then how do we also serve people that might be employed by us?
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So, because they're also taking care of the clients.
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And so it's twofold, that trauma informed approach, we can't only be trauma informed
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for our clients if our clinicians are taking care of the clients, so that
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totally makes a lot of sense to me.
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Yeah, anything else that y'all can think of that makes, I mean, I love
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the equity that you're talking about, the honoring, I mean, I hear so much
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thoughtfulness in what you're sharing and being mindful, I think, too, is a
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big piece of trauma informed leadership.
4:23
Pausing.
4:24
To introspect, anything else that y'all think makes a trauma informed leader?
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Julianne: Yeah, I think, you know, when we conceptualize for us as
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therapists first, like we're so aware of how important the relationship
4:40
is when we're in the therapy room.
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Right.
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And so I remember when I was a beginning therapist and that relief
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of being told like, okay, like, yes, you're wanting to get skills and
4:51
techniques and really make sure you're showing up in service of the client.
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And at the end of the day, it's about the relationship.
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And so I think what we found in our leadership.
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Is it that kind of also overlays in the same process of like, yes,
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there's going to be leadership skills that you learn along the way.
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And yes, in leadership, you often are going to learn by The hard way because you
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kind of have to like live into the answer.
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You kind of feel like you're making things up and so just want to
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normalize for anyone listening.
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Like that's totally normal.
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And I think in that process as you're kind of like developing that skill, you can
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always kind of remind yourself that it's okay that I'm gonna like have missteps
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or mistakes or be human in my leadership.
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And have a group of people be witness to that, which is like, so, so vulnerable.
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And at the end of the day, I can lean into the fact that I know I'm able to
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establish relationship and I can really focus in on that part and my strength
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in that and know that it's okay to like really spend time in that space.
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Laura: Yeah.
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Yeah.
5:50
And you're right.
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It is so vulnerable because I think even if we do years and
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years of therapy, vulnerability can still be quite difficult.
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And it's risky to be vulnerable because we don't know how
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that's going to be perceived.
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And some people might jive with it.
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Some people might not.
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Some people might have their own stories with authority and how
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that shows up in the context of them relating to you as the leader.
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And so there's all these moving.
6:17
The way I like to think of it is like puzzle pieces that we are doing
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our best to like fit the puzzle pieces together for team cohesion.
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And there's going to be times when we mess up and we don't get it right.
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And I am the first to say that I have just learned so much about myself as a person,
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as a therapist, as a colleague, and then really it's challenged me in ways that
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I didn't know I needed to be challenged.
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And so I'm like, hi, it's me.
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You know, I know as you're like normalizing this, like.
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Like it's so normal.
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And I'm like, yes.
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And I had this dream to create a safe, loving, kind, supportive
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environment for therapists.
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And I actually didn't.
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understand everything that entailed when I hired my first clinician.
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I guess it was six, almost six years ago now.
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And I'm certainly still learning.
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I'm not, I'm the first to say like, yes, I still have a lot to learn.
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And those first five years of business ownership for me We're trying, and I
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had, I, the thing was I had done quite a bit of therapy, but all this to say,
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it's interesting because I tell clients this, like any new role we take on,
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it's an invitation to like introspect.
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And so that has been so true for me, whether we become like a mother or
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a partner or, you know, go through something hard, I really experienced that.
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And I don't know if that was maybe some overconfidence that I had because I
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had been in therapy for seven years.
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And I was like, Oh yeah, this is cool.
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Going to be a piece of cake and it's not a piece of cake
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having employees and managing.
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And so I know I'm rambling a little bit, but all this to say is like, yes,
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the work that you all are doing is so important as someone who I do feel like
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I learned a little bit through the fire.
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And I don't feel like I'm going through the fire anymore, but I
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do feel like that, that this first five years was a time of refinement
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Poonam: as a parallel, I would say Julian and I both experienced similar in our
8:12
leadership, you know, and I think we end up or some of us end up in leadership or
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come into the space because we do want to create something warm and nurturing
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and inviting whether this is something that we had and we want to pass on.
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this is something we didn't have and actually want to
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create new or give differently.
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And the learning and the introspection is absolutely a punch in the gut, because
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we're learning so much about ourselves and also having we call like we say
8:42
we're putting hats on and we're wearing different hats or having an awareness
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of different things that perhaps we didn't have an awareness of before.
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So one of the things we talk about sometimes it's like
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compassionate accountability.
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We want to be compassionate.
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We want to be empathic.
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We want to be there for our folks.
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And then realizing, Oh, wait a minute.
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We actually have to like, talk about things like documentation and patient
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care and retention and things like that as part of this process so that our practices
9:07
can thrive and so our teams can thrive.
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And so it's having to find that balance between those things that we value and
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hold so near to us in this creation.
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And then also balancing that with, well, how do we do this?
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From a business standpoint and also keep our lights on those things
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exist And so that was a lot of my learning anyway is how do we do both?
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And how do we do it in a way that feels human centered and values aligned?
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Laura: Gosh.
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Yeah.
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We talk about a lot of these things in our practice with clients.
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Right.
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So I think it's absolutely appropriate that we're talking
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about it with employees too.
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And this is, this was an area of growth and is still, but I think one of the
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things, you know, and I'd love to talk a little bit about this episode.
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I've done certainly some therapy around this, right?
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So I don't experience shame as I'm sharing this because I've been able to
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work through this now, maybe a few years ago, it was more of a shame response for
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me, but when I hired my first clinician, and when I had an employee underneath
10:03
me, So I'm a three on the enneagram.
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I don't know if you all do any enneagram, but I am an achiever.
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And a lot of this is from my own wounding.
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And I also really love dreaming and setting goals.
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I think it's terminal as well.
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So yeah, I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with
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having goals, but the problem with.
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My type of enneagram and how that shows up in a workplace, if it goes
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unchecked, was that I made the mistake of telling clinicians to do a good job.
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And I made an assumption.
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So, you know, circling back to what one of you first shared, right,
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about the assumption piece and really like honoring someone's story.
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I think that also makes us trauma informed experts.
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specifically as leaders, is resisting the urge to make assumptions that our
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staff understand what we're asking for.
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And so that was something that I really had to check myself on because
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my version of a good job, right.
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It might be different than someone else's version of a good job and This at the
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time, like just even developing policies and procedures and standard operating
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procedures where the expectations were very clear, like I am a trauma informed
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therapist, but I didn't understand the need for that in leadership specifically.
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And I know that you all talk a lot about psychological safety, so I want to make
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sure we cover that in today's episode as well, like what that actually means.
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But that I think has created more safety And more overall wellness in the team,
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both from my end and their end, because they understand what I'm looking for.
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And I'm also not making assumptions that they know how to do the job
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that I'm expecting from them.
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So all that to say, that's just one area that I have like grown so much in is
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the documentation and is account of this compassionate accountability and Yeah,
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it's when I think back to my younger self, I'm like, wow, I didn't know to do that.
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And now I do.
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And it can be easy as a leader to go into that shame response.
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I know I certainly have of like, well, I should have been that from the beginning
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or like, why didn't that cross my mind?
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But When we know more, we can do differently.
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And so that has been some of the work too, for me, just as a trauma
12:17
informed leader is like, am I outlining expectations clearly?
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Because if I'm not, then that's really on me, not on my staff.
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So anyway, that just came to mind as you all were sharing.
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Julianne: it's definitely it takes a while to gain clarity around those pieces.
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I think so much of leadership is such a humbling process because of
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the way that we really do have to.
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learn through the mistake piece in the sense that different employees have
12:46
different needs and then the ethos of your group almost shifts depending
12:50
on like the makeup of people and like what they're all like looking for or
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wanting and so there's even like seasons that kind of come with that and so you
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might kind of get down with one group what's needed and what's necessary
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and then you have a change of style.
13:03
Staffing or whatever, and then all of a sudden that changes, right?
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So it's like we're always kind of changing, we're always, you know, wearing
13:09
the different hats and being asked to do so many things that are even outside
13:12
of just therapists or just leader when we're in like business ownership, right?
13:16
And so, I think in that process it's like, yeah, how do we be
13:19
more gentle with ourselves?
13:21
How do we be more compassionate with ourselves?
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Because we, I think when we see leaders thrive, it's the ones who can really
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offer themselves kindness and compassion.
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And also acknowledge the, like, the shame piece that comes up, the
13:35
blame pieces that come up also, and to kind of hold space for both.
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Like, I can definitely be in my feelings, and really feeling frustrated by so many
13:45
things, or feeling like how unfair it can be that as a leader you're always
13:48
having to rise above, like that can feel really exhausting or tiring at
13:52
times, and so Knowing that you're always in that role in that space and trying
13:55
to allow for that and then also make sure you're showing up for your people
13:59
so then they can do their best work.
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And so it's hard to have to be all these parts and kind of navigate
14:06
and figure out what's really going to be values alignment for me.
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What does that mean when I have an employee who doesn't maybe share similar
14:14
values and or maybe they do, but they stack their values a little differently.
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How do we like have conversation around that?
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And like name it and still be able to create a culture where there at least
14:25
is like some clear shared values.
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So if we were really anchoring to what it's like to have those shared values,
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we'd then have shared language around how we're expected and encouraged
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or invited to really show up.
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Laura: Yeah.
14:38
Yeah, absolutely.
14:39
And even asking the question of like, what's most important to you?
14:43
Right?
14:43
Are you driven by finances?
14:46
Are you the sole provider for your family unit?
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Are you driven by autonomy?
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Are you driven by having a better work life balance and even just getting
14:55
curious again, I think about those helps us understand that each person
15:00
is so unique and is driven differently.
15:04
And we can honor, I think, them in that space.
15:06
And yeah, speaking to the multiple hats, that was definitely a skill
15:09
that I had to learn and how do I like best take care of myself so that I
15:13
can also show up well for my team?
15:15
Because that was hard for me to like switching from therapist to sitting
15:19
with clients, to having a team concern.
15:22
And it felt like my nervous system, looking back even four
15:26
or five years ago, it felt like too much for my nervous system.
15:30
And you know, I know that we're all therapists here.
15:32
So we understand.
15:33
what that means.
15:34
But yeah, I mean, when we kind of shift gears here towards like the how to, I
15:38
would love to hear a little bit more about what y'all specifically think
15:41
people could be doing differently as they introspect around their leadership.
15:44
But that's one.
15:44
How to is like just tracking throughout the day.
15:48
what you're experiencing in your body.
15:51
You know, like I was, I told my husband, like, I feel like I'm having
15:53
trouble like catching my breath.
15:56
And that was a symptom to me that I was feeling dysregulated
15:59
and something needed to change.
16:00
And so, you know, we have an office manager now we have a clinical
16:03
director and that helps me be a better version of myself, but
16:07
that didn't just happen overnight.
16:08
Right.
16:08
So the wearing the many hats, We can either keep doing the same
16:13
thing and expect different results or we can like, Really take some
16:17
like hard and fast inquiry and just really introspect around like what
16:21
is and isn't working So I love that
16:23
Poonam: And this is the how to it's the introspection.
16:25
It's the awareness of the observation of what's happening in our bodies.
16:30
What are those feelings that are coming up?
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What are those thoughts that might be ruminating in our minds and truly just
16:34
being an observer of those things.
16:37
Shane will come to visit us as well in those moments, guilt might
16:40
come to visit us in those moments.
16:42
And how do we take those invitations and then choose to do something with
16:46
it, which is really like our model.
16:48
Our model talks about those different invitations that
16:51
present themselves in leadership.
16:52
And then we can move into action because now we're able to name that.
16:56
So a great example is.
16:58
When resentment comes to visit resentment is a direct correlation to our clarity,
17:02
transparency and how honest and authentic we're being in our communication.
17:06
So when resentment comes to visit, are we talking about boundaries?
17:10
Are we talking about what our relational needs are?
17:12
And how are we doing that in a way that It feels good to
17:15
everybody in this space, right?
17:16
Or when shame comes to visit, ah, do I need to practice some
17:20
compassion towards myself?
17:21
Do I need to just take care of myself and go get a drink of water because
17:24
perhaps i've been Not taking care of myself or neglecting my well being
17:29
for the sake of others, you know And so what are those invitations?
17:32
What are those things?
17:32
things that are coming up in our leadership.
17:34
And now how do we proceed with that?
17:40
Laura: I love that word invitation i've actually been using that more a
17:43
little in my own practice because it I think it lends itself to a posture
17:48
of like curiosity over judgment, And in order, like y'all said, I mean,
17:53
I know they all work with leaders all day, every day, most likely.
17:57
And I think the leaders that have longevity in their careers, I agree
18:02
with you, are the ones that are able to have compassion and have curiosity.
18:07
And then we can learn and grow versus like staying so stuck in our shame
18:11
because shame can be so many things and can show up so differently for us.
18:15
But I think that frozen response or just like it can feel debilitating.
18:20
So yeah, I love what y'all are doing.
18:22
All we're sharing today.
18:23
I'm curious.
18:24
I think this is another how to in a way, but I'm curious what helps a
18:29
culture, whether that's a group of therapists, you know, if you own a group
18:32
practice and you're listening, or, you know, maybe you work in a different
18:35
type of business and we're here for that too today, but I'm curious what
18:39
helps create psychological safety.
18:44
Any, what comes to mind for y'all as we're like bridging this topic?
18:50
Julianne: we really conceptualize it like through the lens of our trust model.
18:53
And so, kind of what Poonam was starting to say is like when a leader starts to
18:58
become aware of like the invitations and internally what's happening, it can start
19:02
to help also shape what's happening.
19:04
What you're hoping to cultivate externally in your work culture.
19:07
And so, we have five elements in the way that we conceptualize what like
19:11
a trauma informed or psychological safety looks like in a work culture.
19:15
And so, we just to go through it, we kind of define it as first, like,
19:18
yeah, how are we being transparent in the way that we're showing up?
19:22
How are we being clear on what needs and boundaries are?
19:25
How are we being really collaborative in our process?
19:28
How are we making sure we're on the same page?
19:30
I think of all the times I've left a meeting thinking I was like so clear.
19:34
And then, you know, and two days later I realized that what everyone
19:38
else heard was very different than what I thought I communicated, right?
19:41
So, normal, even if we have good working relationships, those
19:44
miscommunication things happen.
19:46
And so we first, like, really focus in on, like, the transparency piece, and then
19:52
Poonam: Yeah.
19:53
So repair is our how we talk about being kind to ourselves.
19:56
This is when shame shows up, when blame shows up when we're feeling
20:00
avoidance of our employees perhaps or feeling hurt and disappointment.
20:05
What kind of steps do we need to take to work on the repair, right?
20:08
And whether that's repair with ourselves and being kind and extending
20:12
compassion here, whether it's extending compassion out and then really, even
20:16
if we feel okay with the situation that happened, how do we initiate repair?
20:20
Maybe we're in a situation where we're not even the person who
20:22
created the rupture or caused that.
20:24
How do we invite in the repair, even in those cases and actually engage in
20:28
those conversations that are important?
20:30
Laura: Yeah, absolutely.
20:32
I want to like write these things down and I know we can listen to the episode
20:34
again, but I'm like, okay, transparency,
20:37
Poonam: We have like three other elements that we'd love
20:39
to like be able to share about.
20:40
Jillian, would you want to talk about seeking maybe next?
20:43
Yep.
20:45
Julianne: Yeah, so seeking is really, like, the invitation to be curious and
20:49
objective, and so we first conceptualized this, and you actually already hit
20:53
on this, we first conceptualized this as, like, What are the body cues that
20:56
are telling you that you actually need to like slow down or pause, right?
21:00
I think of all the emails I regret pressing send on or all the assumptions
21:05
that I really like jumped to or started meetings off on the wrong foot
21:09
unintentionally because I totally skipped so many steps and skipped the curiosity
21:14
piece And so how do we start to become aware of our cues within the context
21:18
specifically of our leadership, right?
21:20
And so, you know You know, we're working with other therapists and
21:22
it's really easy for a therapist to be like, I know this and we're like, yes.
21:25
And what about in the context of when you're in leadership, right?
21:30
When you're feeling stressed out because something didn't go according to plan
21:33
or when you presented something to your people and they didn't maybe, they
21:37
weren't as receptive as you were hoping.
21:40
How do you still stay in that like grounded energy and then get
21:43
curious about like, well, maybe what are the gaps that I missed?
21:46
How can I seek more information first?
21:49
And really gather everything because we have a tendency to want
21:52
to like fix right away or like solve it without having everything.
21:56
And then we, create other barriers or interrupt other processes because
22:02
again, we don't have all the information and we didn't move through it slowly.
22:06
Laura: Yeah.
22:07
Yeah, absolutely.
22:08
And I think having a therapist client relationship is different than having
22:13
a therapist employee relationship.
22:16
Or, you know, if maybe you're not a therapist and you're listening today,
22:18
maybe you are a boss of some kind or in some kind of management position or
22:22
role and you do have employees and it is different than direct client care.
22:28
Because I think there's maybe I don't want to say more, but you know, you're
22:32
in the break room with your team and things come up or there is that financial
22:37
piece that play to an open and you were talking about the retention and some
22:41
of those more difficult conversations that you're not necessarily having,
22:45
you're not having those with a client.
22:47
You're talking about them in the room and their processes and
22:51
their goals and how they can heal.
22:52
So yeah, I think it is different.
22:54
I mean, I do love.
22:55
This idea of transparency.
22:57
One of my values as a human is authenticity and or transparency.
23:01
And yeah, what does that actually look like in a, in an appropriate.
23:05
professional environment.
23:08
What do I do if someone doesn't like a policy?
23:12
Make that invitation to collaborate and make sure that
23:15
they understand the purpose of it.
23:18
I know I've grown in like, I still have room to go most likely, but like
23:23
really clearing the air before we leave a meeting of like, Hey, was there
23:27
anything else that you needed clarity on?
23:31
If it's been like a pattern for me of like a staff member, maybe leaving
23:34
a meeting and not feeling heard or understood really just checking in on
23:38
like what they understood, like what they heard me say, or is there any story
23:43
that you're telling yourself about this conversation that we need to correct
23:46
in this moment, all of those things, I just didn't have the skills for.
23:52
Six years ago.
23:53
And so, yeah, it's it's definitely a learning process.
23:56
And I'm sure if we did another podcast six years from now, we
23:59
would talk about all the things that I've learned in the next six years.
24:03
Yeah.
24:04
Yeah.
24:05
Okay.
24:05
So just to recap, so transparency is the first part, the first of the
24:09
trust clear, concise, is that one in the same clear and concise policies
24:15
Poonam: So we skipped the you we talk about that at the end, we jumped to
24:18
seeking which was the third and then we have tact, which is it's all the things
24:22
you're talking about already, right?
24:23
Which is, it's about message delivery.
24:25
It's anchoring people to purpose.
24:27
It's being very intentional and human centered in our communication, right?
24:30
So, what is it that we want our folks to experience?
24:34
You know, whether this is us, having a hard conversation, whether this is
24:37
us rolling out a new change, right?
24:40
Maybe there's something happening at a larger systemic level that creates
24:44
change for us within our practice.
24:46
So how are we talking about that change?
24:47
And what's our intention in sharing that with our employees?
24:51
And how do we acknowledge their experiences in doing this?
24:54
How do we make this be set up in a way that they can hear it.
24:57
And this might even be like, let's say we're doing a team
24:59
building sort of an activity.
25:00
What's our intention?
25:01
How do we want them to experience this?
25:02
What is the value we want to center?
25:05
And how do we invite them into that space and conversation?
25:08
How do they know what their roles are?
25:09
Because how we say something, how we set up any of these meetings
25:12
matters just as much, if not more than sometimes what we say.
25:16
If we don't set this up well, and maybe somebody checks out during
25:20
a conversation, they're not going to receive the message anyway.
25:23
So how we set it up is just as important and how we deliver that is just as
25:26
important as what we actually say.
25:29
So that's one of the elements.
25:30
And then our last one is unify, and I'm going to pass that
25:33
on to Julianne to talk about.
25:35
Julianne: So with unify, it's really bringing in like all The
25:38
other four elements into the space.
25:40
Right?
25:40
And so the hope is that we're modeling this for their, for our employees.
25:44
So then they're able to integrate these things too.
25:46
'cause we know when groups have like the shared language and when
25:49
we're able to understand what the agreements are everyone's able to
25:54
kind of show up in similar ways.
25:55
So when you're modeling transparency and.
25:57
Them to also reciprocate, right?
26:00
When you're modeling compassion and generosity towards them, it
26:03
invites them to also reciprocate.
26:05
Sometimes we need to verbally remind them and ask for it, and we always tell leaders
26:09
like, it's actually totally okay for you to say like, I'm asking that you actually
26:14
extend me generosity in this moment.
26:16
And knowing that you yourself have also practiced and shown
26:19
them that, and of course we.
26:21
We also want to name the power differential, right?
26:23
And so it's important for the leader to name that part as well.
26:27
And it's also okay to remind them that you're human and to remind them that,
26:32
yeah, I actually need grace at times too.
26:34
I am actually going to make mistakes.
26:36
And I hope I can model that for you and what it looks like when I take
26:38
accountability to the mistakes I make and also show you and model for
26:42
you what it's like to move through this and to actually learn together.
26:45
Cause we're all actually really learning.
26:47
Through this in real time all together.
26:49
No one holds all the answers.
26:51
And so this is what like that collaborative piece looks like, right?
26:54
And so, how can we make sure that employee to employee, they're
26:58
starting to then know how to have these conversations with each other.
27:02
So rather than feeling frustrated at a peer, they're starting to
27:05
feel empowered to actually share what they need with a peer because
27:08
something continues to happen.
27:10
Maybe it's in group supervision, maybe it's admin related.
27:13
But they're feeling really confident to be able to extend grace, to say what they
27:17
need to say, but also say it in a tactful way, also be able to extend curiosity.
27:21
And so it's just like, modeling these things, teaching them and practicing
27:25
them for people in hopes that they also are willing to like meet us.
27:28
And then if they're not being able to name that process as well.
27:32
Like I noticed that generosity is not in the room or I noticed
27:35
curiosity is not in the room.
27:36
And I wonder what would that look like if we could restart this
27:38
conversation and actually center those.
27:42
Laura: Yeah, absolutely.
27:44
Absolutely.
27:44
Yes.
27:45
To all of this.
27:45
Yeah, it's just like we would I've always found it's very important
27:48
to find out what is in the room.
27:49
I think that's something that we all have to kind of do for a client, right?
27:51
And you know, no matter what type of business you're in, if you are a
27:53
leader, I'm sure that a lot of you listening, if not all of you listening
27:57
are hopefully extending kindness and generosity to your clients.
28:01
And I think somehow because we get tired, because we get busy, we get
28:04
overwhelmed, we maybe miss that step.
28:09
And I have personally found the value of naming, you know,
28:12
what is in the room, right?
28:14
So we would do that with a client.
28:16
And, you know, if a client is not making eye contact, we might get
28:19
curious of course, you know, around that in a loving kind way and I
28:24
think it can be hard as leaders to have that same skill with employees.
28:29
So that's something we certainly have to practice.
28:31
And I know I've gone into some conversations like pretty anxious.
28:33
And as we expose ourselves, we use a lot of exposure therapy in the practice,
28:38
but as we expose ourselves to the hard thing, it actually gets easier over time.
28:42
And so.
28:43
I think what's tricky, a lot of you, if you are not therapists, you
28:46
maybe don't know this, but right.
28:47
Anxiety gets worse with avoidance and there's a lot of research behind this.
28:51
And so modeling, like you talked about Julianne, like that that
28:55
assertiveness skill, that radical candor,
28:58
Poonam: what's really interesting, Laura, as you said a couple of times,
29:00
like we do this clinically and we almost do this naturally clinically and
29:03
we forget to do it in our leadership.
29:05
What's really interesting is a lot of those clinical skills
29:07
do translate into leadership.
29:09
We just don't necessarily know how to make them work in leadership.
29:12
Laura: Right.
29:15
How to make it.
29:15
Yeah.
29:16
Yeah.
29:16
Yeah.
29:17
Yeah.
29:18
And I think that's probably, a gift that you all give the
29:21
people that you work with, right?
29:23
Is like, what is the actual how to?
29:25
Because if they are doing this as therapists, how are they also,
29:30
you know, maybe not doing it?
29:31
And how can we learn and grow with employees?
29:33
Yeah.
29:34
And the tactic, I love that.
29:35
That you mentioned that because I think that I've, you know,
29:37
had to lean into this too.
29:39
But it's just like with the client.
29:40
Like if our arms are crossed and we're like, tell me about your anxiety.
29:43
They're probably not going to tell us about their anxiety.
29:45
I mean, I know as someone who's done therapy for a long time, I
29:48
wouldn't respond well to that.
29:50
And so.
29:51
Yeah, it can be something that it's just hard and we have
29:55
to be super mindful of it.
29:56
It's almost like, I think sometimes as group practice owners, I know I have
29:59
some friends who own group practices, like we almost give more grace to clients
30:03
or show up more fully with clients.
30:04
And so challenging us to do that with our team is just, I
30:07
think, really important to you.
30:09
Yeah.
30:11
Julianne: and you're naming such an important process as far as what it's
30:15
like to, like, philosophically want to show up in a certain way, but what does
30:19
this actually look like in practice, which is actually what drove us to create our
30:22
model, because we were like, okay, we're reading things that sound, you know, Nice.
30:27
But what does this actually look like when I'm in supervision and I'm finding
30:32
that we're not making maybe movement on a goal we've talked about several
30:36
times and I'm feeling like really stuck on how do I support this employee and
30:40
give them the support they need to then provide the best care to our clients.
30:44
And like, what does that process really look like?
30:45
And so I think like that was our hope is like, how can we really talk
30:50
about the practical things and even like, Pulling from inspiration in
30:53
the sense that when we're in a room of therapists and we're all talking
30:58
through things through the lens of a certain modality, instantly everyone
31:01
knows how we're conceptualizing things.
31:04
Instantly we have shared language.
31:05
Instantly we're able to like kind of unblock and get inspiration or
31:09
clarity on what we'd like to do next.
31:11
And so we're like, how do we do that with leadership?
31:13
So when we're feeling really stuck or unclear.
31:16
we can conceptualize and look through at something through a certain lens.
31:19
And that helps us to find empowerment and like, make sure
31:23
we are being values aligned to like who we want to show up to be.
31:27
And it can also practically just be like, Oh yeah, I can do this.
31:31
Like next thing, like I don't have to be in this space of like, you know,
31:35
washing my dishes at night and arguing with my employee in my head kind of a
31:39
thing, or waking up in the middle of the night, really anxious that maybe I'm I
31:43
made a mistake or didn't show up in a certain way or whatever it is, right?
31:47
We can be so, so hard on ourselves as leaders and our employees aren't
31:50
watching our whole process, which is, again, I know we spoke to that earlier,
31:54
but it's just such a vulnerable thing and all of our parts just really show
31:58
up for us in a way that we just, I feel like no other role really provides.
32:05
Laura: Yeah.
32:06
And so if you all listening aren't therapists will talk a lot about parts
32:10
of that language that Julianne's using.
32:11
It actually comes from internal family systems, and I'm sure that other therapy
32:15
modalities, you know, use this language, but it's essentially You know, we all
32:19
have a healthy self and we all are capable in my opinion of leaning into that.
32:24
But because life can be really hard and messy, we develop
32:28
these parts and air quotations.
32:30
If you're watching on YouTube, we develop these parts of us
32:33
that are trying to protect us, but maybe don't do a great job.
32:38
They're trying to protect us a lot of times from feeling the hard things.
32:41
So whether that's shame or fear or anger or whatever it might be.
32:45
And yeah, I agree with you that leadership can challenge our
32:49
parts or challenge our own.
32:50
Old wounds that maybe we thought we had worked through.
32:54
And somebody may might remind us of somebody in our past,
32:58
whether that's a friend or family member or perpetrator that like
33:02
harmed us or hurt us extensively.
33:04
And so I think that can also be rich work if you aren't listening, is if you
33:09
do have kind of, I don't wanna say an issue, but maybe a concern is better
33:12
language, a concern with someone on your team and they're your employee.
33:15
It's like, okay, does that person remind you of someone.
33:18
And is that part of the equation here?
33:21
I know that's been really helpful for me.
33:23
And what do I need?
33:24
Right.
33:25
So that's the question that y'all have just talked about so beautifully today.
33:28
It's like, what do I need to move through this?
33:31
Do I need to do my own work?
33:32
Maybe, is that an invitation for some unhealed trauma wounds there for me?
33:37
But yeah, it can bring up a lot of our old wounds that maybe we
33:41
didn't even know that were there.
33:43
So yeah.
33:45
Yeah.
33:45
Thank you all so much for your time.
33:48
I am curious just as we close.
33:50
So this trust model, I mean, we will certainly include in the show notes
33:54
access to that and access to y'all on social media so that our listeners
33:58
can find us if they are interested in working with you all or learning
34:02
more about the work that you do.
34:05
Do you have any last minute?
34:06
I mean, I know you shared so many wonderful things, but any last minute
34:10
kind of in closing, this is what we really encourage the leaders that
34:14
we are working with to start with.
34:16
I know we've talked a lot about introspection, curiosity,
34:19
anything else that y'all would add
34:20
Poonam: I would add to create rituals around introspection, specifically.
34:25
So, give yourself permission and grace to take the time to reflect
34:31
on your day, your week, and really pay attention in that way.
34:35
Make that, like, just as important as the supervision meeting.
34:39
Make that just as important as the client appointment.
34:42
And make that time just as much of a ritual in your practice
34:46
in your leadership development.
34:52
Laura: Yeah, there's so much intention and that I think, and I think it sends
34:57
the message to you as an individual that like you are worthy of setting
35:02
time aside for yourself, for your mental health, for your emotional wellbeing.
35:05
Yeah, absolutely.
35:07
Well, we always close the show with homework and an affirmation.
35:11
So you all are welcome to provide one or both of those things, but based on
35:17
what we talked about today, any homework that you would give our listeners.
35:23
Julianne: Yeah, I think two things that we like speaking to Poonam around rituals.
35:27
I think two things that we would encourage viewers, whether you're in
35:31
leadership or not, is to conceptualize where's a space where you can have
35:35
either like a gratitude box and also where's a space where you can have
35:39
something like, let's say a worry box.
35:41
So where are you able to really like set things down and practice
35:46
surrender and boundaries around yeah.
35:49
the process in which you are maybe overthinking or doubting
35:52
yourself or in situations where you don't fully have control, right?
35:55
Like leadership quickly lets us know how lack of control that we actually have.
36:01
So where's the space where you can really do something around ritual?
36:04
So we'll suggest like a worry box or whatever that looks so
36:07
different for everyone, right?
36:09
That could be journaling, whatnot.
36:10
And then also, where do you have the space to really celebrate yourself?
36:13
Because often in leadership, What you're doing can be overlooked.
36:17
Your employees don't fully understand the sacrifice the intention,
36:20
how much thought goes into this whole proc this whole process.
36:23
And so, where can you have a space where you can print those emails
36:28
that you get, or those cards you get, or You heard something where they
36:31
shared something in supervision and you write it down to remind yourself.
36:34
So on those really hard days when you're feeling really depleted and
36:37
you're like, Why am I doing this?
36:39
You can like go to that and kind of remind yourself or anchor yourself
36:43
into the like, Oh yeah, these are the things that really light me up.
36:46
This is why I'm really choosing to have this kind of level of impact
36:50
that's not just on our community.
36:52
But it's also in the work culture that I'm creating and the livelihoods
36:55
that are here that we're supporting.
36:57
So, I would say, yeah, create some kind of space or box where you're
37:01
practicing gratitude and also where you can really surrender
37:04
and let go of these other things.
37:07
Laura: Yeah, absolutely.
37:09
any affirmation that
37:10
Poonam: I would love to offer an affirmation.
37:12
Let's see what's coming to mind is may you honor the wisdom of your
37:15
being and stand in your self worth.
37:23
Laura: I'm going to take that with me today.
37:24
Thank you.
37:26
Yeah.
37:27
Well, thank y'all so much for being on the show today.
37:29
It's really been a true honor and privilege and I'm going to run in Lauren's
37:33
office and tell her all the things that I've learned from you all today.
37:37
So yeah, I know that she would love to meet with you all at
37:40
some point and meet y'all and hear from you and learn from you.
37:43
So thank you for your time today.
37:45
But I would love to hear a little bit more about how our listeners can find you.
37:51
Poonam: I was waiting for Julianne to talk.
37:53
So I'm going to jump in, get that out.
37:56
So, on social media, on Instagram we're at level up leaders.
38:00
And then we have our website which is www.
38:04
levelupleaders.
38:05
org and our trust model is actually on the website.
38:08
There's also a link to an archetype assessment.
38:11
So for group practice owners who are interested or curious about learning about
38:15
their leadership archetype that's a great start into that introspection process.
38:20
for having us.
38:23
Laura: Awesome.
38:24
Awesome.
38:25
I love it.
38:26
I love it.
38:26
Well, thank you both so much for your time and thank you to
38:29
our listeners for being here.
38:30
We will see you next time on the Becoming Anchored podcast.
38:32
Take care.