Latest / The Complete Agent - The Podcast For Premium Real Estate Agents / 129. Why Some Estate Agents Will Never Break Into the Premium Market
Transcript
- Dave Warburton: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Complete Agent Podcast, where each week we get together to talk all things Estate Agency. My name is Dave Warburton, and today I am delighted to say it is a full house. We have myself, James Kendall, Ian Story, and Michelle Smith. Guys, it is great to have all four of us on the podcast. I I anticipate Ian's not going to talk very much, because he never does. JK will talk a lot. Michelle will JK: Every week. Dave Warburton: add value, and I will nod along nicely. Ian: Ha ha. Dave Warburton: We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. for now, let's start with usual tradition. How has your week been? I'm gonna go to you, Michelle, as the most interesting out of the four. Michelle Smith: No pressure. My week has been productive, I would say. I've had to be really productive because I've still got the kids at home on school holidays. So I've just had set times where I can focus on work and there's nothing like a little bit of pressure to focus the mind and get everything done as you need to. so work-wise, it's been really productive, had some nice social time over the weekend with friends. one thing quickly, I just want to mention, is we were having a chat. was some type of, lion's portal on Saturday, which energetically is supposed to be a really powerful day. you can tell I didn't know about it till I was sat having a cocktail on Durham Riverbanks, cause I can't really give you any background. But my friend was telling me about this and she said, today is the day where you really need to put out what you want in the next year. So I thought, that sounds all right, I'll do that. So I put out what I really wanted to achieve, get, experience in this next year. And one of them was financial. So I said it out loud, you know, what I want to achieve. And one of my really good friends, she did hers and... She also said after she'd done it, I'd also like a little windfall. And I was like, say it, you know, put it out there. And she went, no, no, I can't, I can't. That would just feel greedy because there's people that are struggling. So automatically, my kind of ears pricked open, just ask further questions because I never knew that she had that money mindset. And it's really interesting when you dig in about people's views on money. And when you kind of project that or you have those thoughts and beliefs, it doesn't surprise me that you then struggle to attract kind of financial reward. So that's just something that I wanted to throw in because ever since then, I've really thought about it. And it's really important to understand your own values and beliefs on the things that you really want to attract in your life. which will actually link in very much to this episode. So that's it from me this week. Dave Warburton: Nice. And what about you, Ian Story? Ian: Had another good week. we've recruited our new junior client exec. so both Phil and Meg are still with you know in the team, but they're sort of taking a bit of a a step upwards and their their roles are sort of developing and they're taking on new bit new responsibilities. So it's really quite an exciting time. The new junior client exec is a young lad who approached me directly before we were recruiting. I was just really, really impressed with him. He he he got my number off the website. The amount of the amount of job applicants we've had for this role, none of them have picked picked up the phone and rung me and my mobile number's on the website, apart from him. And he contacted me before we were recruiting. He said, I've I've seen what you do. He's just he's just dead eager and keen, eighteen year old lad. I just thought, you have got something, mate, and I really, really want to give you a job. so I threw him into the mix. Aidan and Phil were doing all of the interviewing. So they interviewed Tom as well, and everyone basically agreed that you know you don't get many people like him coming along. He's the only one who picked up the phone and rang me. So anyway, jointly with with Aidan Phil, we've decided he's the right guy. And he starts on Monday of next week. So that's really, really exciting. other exciting news for us is that Nutsford we're getting a bit of traction now in Nutsford. So we're expanding into Nutsford. we've started sending out our direct mail which has produced a couple of valuations already and matt matt is now prospecting quite heavily around there as well himself he's picked up a couple of listings in the last I don't know last four or five days nutsford based listings which JK: Nice. Ian: is also really exciting and Vicky who's our valuer latest value who started about six weeks ago she's flying as well so it's good the sales you know we agreed I think we agreed four sales last week, two of those above a above a million. the second viewing is on another one at two million. We've got a couple of good bits of news on two that were selling at two million. One, the value were commented on some structural movement. but basically it's all been sorted. The lender's now happy with that. They've got the mortgage offer. And another one, which is a two million property, the seller couldn't find anywhere to buy. He's now found somewhere to buy. so that and that and that's how we're moving along as well. so it's good. Kids are off, as Michelle said. So we all know what that's like when the kids are at home, but they're they're in clubs and we're doing lots of fun stuff. this coming weekend is my brother's stagdo. and I don't drink alcohol anymore, so that's going to be an interesting old few days. Dave Warburton: Ha JK: Yeah, cheers for the invite. Michelle Smith: Thank Ian: but no, overall things are good, the sun is shining. How about you, JK? JK: well I've had an interesting week. So last week, it's the the highs and lows of a state agency that exist. I'm well ready for a holiday, by the way, which I'm going on very, very soon. but the highs and lows. So we had I think I said to you all actually I was talking to you about it all in individually. we had a sale on a knife edge, so like one point six five, two percent and the sellers wanted to pull out and then the buyers were like, I'm not sure we're gonna go for it. And then Eventually exchanged. So it was nice to get, I think that's it, it's a thirty-three grand fee over the line last week. And then we had two fall throughs yesterday, both one after another, like both gold dusters, both six fifty and seven hundred. And you know, when it's nice when twenty-eight grand goes in the pipe, but it's not so good when it comes out. And the reasons like it just it's just crap. It's just it is what it is, right? The thing is You know when you forecast and you look at sales that you put in in in the the pipe, you know that there's a good chance that some are going to fall through. But I just they weren't on my radar. They weren't the ones that I thought were going to fall through. because, you know, cash buyers going really quickly, six weeks in, and then the searches came back and it said, you know, high risk of flooding and high risk of ground instability. and the way that the report is written It it just sounds like your house is gonna fall down. When it the reality is we we've got to the bottom of it yesterday and the search is incorrect. So we've queried it with a search provider because there's no river within five miles and it says river flooding. So how on earth can a river flood a house that's five miles? There'll be people underwater before this happens. so yeah, to be honest, it's been a challenging start to the week. but You it's one of them things, right? You can't have the rough without the smooth, you can't appreciate the highs without the lows. So you just carry on and you get on and you keep working. so yeah, t today we've say in terms of sales actually, we've we've been a bit l a bit of a light start this month. we've got a couple that we're negotiating on. we've got a couple in photography, so we've got one well, we've shot actually already. We've shot a nine hundred last week and a six hundred cold dusters that are gonna be launching this week. we've got a shoot at another three million pound house tomorrow. So I will be able to talk about that for the next six months. and then I've got another shoot on Friday as well. So I've got stuff happening. it's been challenging. It's been it's been a bit of a challenging sort of seven days, but we keep it moving. We keep it moving. David. Dave Warburton: Love that, JK. I love that mate. 'Cause you are gonna have the highs and the lows and we all go through them and you know, don't get me wrong, me and Ian will be having a pint over it. JK: Mm. Dave Warburton: But no, all joking, mate. You've you I know you were going through the milli yesterday, so I'm glad you're now more positive today. Because you have to be. What else have we got? What else have we got? yeah, all all good here. So we've agreed four sales in the last week, which we have one at 1.4 million, one at 1.2 million, and then we've got one at 900,000 and one at 700,000. So great sales. I've got a nice challenge, which is I go on holiday tomorrow. for a couple of weeks and we have 15. That is one five fifteen in photography. So when I get back, I've got I've got a lot of work to do. but it's a it's not a bad place to be. and we had a couple of completions or we've got one going today and we had one go on Friday that were both you know really nice Michelle Smith: you Dave Warburton: ones. Really good gold dust listings that have gone into the pot before we go away. So All in all, it's quite good. The pipeline's the best it's ever been. Instructions are great. I feel like our brand, and where our petitioning in the market is the best we've been. I just feel like we're on on the really on a good path at the moment. lots of tricky sales, lots of them. You know, there's there's high rate buyers, high rate sellers. So keeping everybody happy and keeping everything together is challenging. And obviously the usual challenges as well with sticky stock and having serious conversations about where the house might sit in the market compared to where it did maybe just a few months ago. So all the all the usual challenges as well. So it's not all rosy. But it it's it's not bad at all. And it's holiday season as well. So I've got a couple of team members off. Delighted to say I brought somebody in who started a week last Monday, Ellie, and she is really good, really good. She comes with experience, tenacity, she's dead keen. And I'm really excited to get her fully up and running. she's got a holiday schedule similar to mine. So we're we're off at the same time, which is good. So when I come back in a couple of weeks, we can both both again hit the ground running. But she's she's quickly almost straight into it. She's been shadowing me on a few valuations, getting introduced to our way of valuing, because it's very different to what she's used to. So that that's been quite I've got quite Quite interesting, quite exciting as well, because it she's she's loving all the tools and you that we use. I think she openly admitted, in fact, Michelle was on the call with me when we initially interviewed her, and she openly admitted that one thing she struggles with sometimes is value, particularly when you're at the higher end. And it was refreshing to hear that because I think a lot of estate agents will just go out there and pretend that they know it all when actually sometimes you don't have a clue. Genuinely, you just don't. I went to evaluation yesterday. not a clue. The very first evaluation Ellie came on with me. In fact, I've had a couple of tricky ones since she's joined. I thought, it'd be nice to just get a couple of gold dusters to show her it's done. And I've gone into two or three in the last week where you're just like, what the hell is this worth? What is it? but it was good for her to see that because when you genuinely don't know, there is a way to articulate that you don't know. And it's impossible for anybody to actually know. So it's actually been good for her to see that. that we've been able to showcase how we do things using data, how the market dictates value, and how you can quickly turn a tricky appointment away from almost debating value into showing how you can add value and become the best person in the room to to sell that home. and it I think it's been a bit of an eye-opener for her. She's getting to grips with the data. She's a fast learner. So She's she's a breath of fresh air. I'm I'm really hopeful for her. I think she's gonna be great and excited to get her up and running. one thing I've found as well this week, lads, I don't know whether I mean it's not exactly groundbreaking advice and technique in a in evaluation. sorry, I just realised I said, one thing I've found there, lads. I've got Michelle sat there looking at me going, what you what you want about you? One one one thing I've thought Michelle Smith: Thank Dave Warburton: all. This this week. I've been in that so I've been in been in a f a few valuations and one thing that I find that is working really well Michelle Smith: . Dave Warburton: as a bit of a close is especially when you've got tricky value. So if it's a valuation that you genuinely don't know, or there is somebody else that's gone in considerably higher, you know, I've had one this week where there's no doubt in my mind that the house is probably worth closer to a million than it is one point five, but what one particular agent has said. 1.5 and it is miles off and they've got they've got a reputation for it let's say overvaluing the other the other party that's valued it is not two a million miles away. So there's two of us in and around what perhaps the data might say, and then one that's wishful thinking. but one thing I've found that's quite useful is to say, let's just take the value away just for one moment. Take that away, pretend it doesn't exist. What you not Not not asking them, telling them what you need is your property needs to be marketed in the best possible way. It needs to cast the net the widest. So you need to work with the agent that you think is going to represent your interests in the best way. So how do you want your house to look? So compare the three agents that you've had out. Who do you who do you want to market your home home? How do you want it to look? Then how do you want somebody to act with you? How do you want somebody to communicate with you? Put all that into the mix. then put the number back in and and have a discussion with that particular agent about where you think it sits in the market. And it it seems to just go down very, very well. it it's working extremely well for me. I think one of the reasons for that is I I I do think our marketing is streets ahead of a lot of our local competition. There are there are one or two agents who do it also very, very well. But you know, ninety nine times out of a hundred I think we are streets ahead with what we do, particularly with what was things that we've spoken about, like pre-launch. video, all that sort of stuff, I don't think people can compete. So when you when you say that, they will say, yeah, I I think your marketing looks fantastic. And they'll start telling you how good your marketing is and almost almost tell you how much of a fit they are for you for your brand. And then you can say, right, well let's bring the value back in. You know, you've had one at this, one at that and and and this one at my market dictation today. We we don't need to get too bogged down in that just yet. We've got a pre-launch strategy that we can put together and I can show you how we can get it out there and test the market without actually testing the market on right move, if that makes sense. And it's just it's quite a powerful thing to say because they it gets them talking about your brand and what they actually know about it. And if they've if they've not actually seen you properly, like I've been to a couple of evaluations in the last couple of weeks, I was one yesterday. They hadn't actually done much research on us at all, other than a quick scan of the website. I was there literally on the back of sending them letters for the last two years and they find them an interesting read. So sometimes you have to literally show them. Obviously the iPad comes out, you show them the video, show them website, show them all that, and explain why this sort of approach is right for their home. But it's quite a powerful line that, you know, take them take the value away. How do you want your house to look? Who do you want to represent? You have a think about all that. And if it's genuinely not me, that's absolutely fine. You're kind of putting yourself out there. But that's the decision that you need to think about making when I walk out of this room today. You've interviewed three agents. Who is going to represent you best? How do you want your house to look? Take everything else away. And I just thought that I'd share that. Michelle Smith: Love that Dave. Love that. Dave Warburton: Yes, so there you go. So anyway, that's my week and we're now gonna move on to our topic. JK, I'm gonna let you introduce this. You're very articulate when it comes to this sort of stuff and I'm not JK: Brilliant. Thanks for that, mate. so w it's kind of a a it's not back and looking at the mini series again, but we're it's something that comes up a lot and we talk about it, how do you look? So, and that that is multifaceted, and we are going to get a lot more granular on this, in terms of what that actually looks like and things that you can actually action today in order to get the best result from how you look. Michelle, you said earlier when we were when we were going to go through this and we were really sort of planning the the pod, you said we were going to go into niching and sort of might might maybe microwing down or unpacking, some might say, this. I think it's probably best to to throw the ball to you and you can articulate it extremely well, and then we between us all can talk about how indeed you look. Now For those of you listening that have seen Dave Warburton in real life, this isn't how he looks, it's how you look as an agency. Although it could be d articulated and construed that maybe people do feel sorry for him when it goes to evaluation. Right, go on. Go on, Michelle. Dave Warburton: Just give it him. Just give it in. Michelle Smith: Thanks, JK. Thank you. So when I was chatting earlier about kind of thoughts and beliefs, it really ties into this whole Ian: Mm-hmm. Michelle Smith: conversation. And I think something that can feel quite overwhelming for agents, especially if they're already established, is kind of peeling the layers back. and getting really clear on the type of client that they want to work with and what it is that they want to attract because there's so much that goes into that. And there can be quite a bit of scarcity mindset. There can be quite a bit of actually, I don't know how the hell to unpeel what we've been doing and get that clarity and... you know, that vision of actually where I do want to niche. So not forgetting that we work with agents who want to operate in the premium market. Unless they've set themselves up like that, often there's quite a bit of work to do in making sure that they look like the type of agent that will attract the homes that they want. And when we say look, obviously there's the visual element of the branding, the social media, the website. There's also how they come across to clients. And there's also underneath all of that, that very clear and concise understanding between them and their team about what it is that they want to work with. So with that comes what they will say yes to, but also what they'll say no to. So I think we should start with the... understanding and the clarity and almost like that mission statement that really defines every decision, every action. And that is the kind of compass of what you say yes to and what you say no to. And I don't think that is very clearly documented or even discussed in a lot of agencies. And I know when I work with clients, that's often where we start. it's, are you really clear on the type of clients and property that you want to represent? I mean, I know Ian, you were very clear from the outset when you set stories up of what that was. And I know Dave, you've had a different route, which is you've done a brand split to get that clarity. and, and JK, you were clear. So how did you do that? What, what was it that you did? And. How did that start for anybody who feels they need to readjust that at this stage? JK: Who's got me? So so I I Michelle Smith: Yeah, you go, JK. You talk more sense. JK: did start at the lower end. So my journey arguably has probably been maybe the hardest in some ways in that I've gone from hundred and two hundred thousand pound terraces on the same brand and then yanked the brand all the way up to selling one, two, three million pound houses. but what happened for me was, you know, eight around seven, eight years ago, I just got fed up of know you if you have a a quiet month and your fee, you know, we start I think we in twenty eighteen, I think it was, in December 2017, we s we sold one house. we didn't have a a strategy. Our strategy was the we would sell kind of any house. but also equally all of our instructions were referrals and recommendations and just who happened to stumble across us. and December we sold one house, it was three hundred and fifty grand, it was one percent, it was three and a half grand. We didn't have an awful lot of money in the bank. and I just thought, you know, I'm I kind of fell out of love with agency because we'd gone through the whole volume thing, parlem high, sell it cheap, but with with absolutely no strategy. And I just thought there's got to be better way of enjoying marketing agency. That's when I sort of looked outside the four walls in the office. swallowed my ego and realized that I needed to learn and learn from other people that know how to, you know, who the who these people that are selling all these homes, people that are talking about getting two percent, people that are getting upfront fees, people that are doing this all this amazing video marketing and you know, who who are they? And then that's when so I went on a a course. That's where I met Ian in twenty eighteen. We sat next to each other and You just you get it opens your mind, you get into a room and you're like, Well, okay, actually I don't know it all. you know, I've done corporate I'd done corporate agency and independent agency for God, the best part of sixteen years up to that point. So I thought, you know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I knew what I knew. got into that room, and then I started looking for more rooms and and and more people. And that that's when obviously as time went on, you learn. what is available and you know, what else is out there and then it completely changes then all of a sudden, you know, we you learn about, you sending out, you know, came across SkateC in 2020, really started to get into direct mail. and then I really started again, the mad professor that I am started digging into get getting some really good results from direct mail, sold one point seven five million pound house off the back of a single A4 letter. Started sending more letters out, getting more back. And all of a sudden it kind of grew and grew from then. And I realized actually, you know, I c I can do this and I know what I'm doing. It's just the houses are bigger, but the marketing has to be bigger as well and refined over time. And I just it got I got to a space where, you know, I'm probably fast forwarding a lot here, but I I got to a space where I realized that I didn't want to be at the bottom end of the market and messing around with two bed terraces. And I then wanted to be, you know, selling the Grange, the old rectory. and you know, you can't sell the flat above the chip shop and the old rectory. You have to make your choice because if the old rectory seller lands on your website and they see that you're selling high rise flats, That's above chip shops, two bed terraces. They are not going to resonate with you and what you do and they're not going to invite you out. Or even if they did invite you out, if you had the best letter in the world, if someone lands on your website and you're and it looks like crap and you're selling crap, then they're not going to instruct you. So yeah, for me, it was sort of doubling down on being a better agent, being a better business owner, being a better better marketeer, being focused on what I wanted to sell and Like Ian said it before and it resonates with me, like selling homes that you'd be inspired to live in yourself. and whether that is a five, six hundred K gold dust house that's got a really mint kitchen that the owners take care of really, really well, or whether it's a three, four million pound mansion in the countryside on on Acreage. you know, I've got to the point where now we still get the odd vow that slips through the net, but you go out and I know, even if it's a a a two million pound house, I know whether they're gonna sign up or not as soon as I walk in the door. Like if I walk in the door and they haven't touched it for 30 years, there's a good chance they're probably not going to instruct me, in my opinion. But if I walk through the door and everything is mint, so they've done a a lovely kitchen, they've got a cinema room, they've got the the top spec of everything, it's very, very likely. That that is going to become an instruction. So I realize that was a really long way about going around the houses. But for me, I had to drag up from being a two-bed terrace, one-bedroom apartment, shared ownership kind of guy, to where we're at today. And we still do stretch down. We do get the odd one that we've got like three, four hundred. but you know, they're on, they're on decent fees. They're not on one percent, they're on two percent fees. So yeah, that's kind of where I started. I mean, I I can, I can. deep dive into more if we want to, but I'm just conscious that there's another three of us on this podcast and everyone else needs to give their version of of of what they've done. So let me Ian, let me pass over to you, mate, 'cause the listeners would love to hear your voice. Ian: Thanks, JK. I wonder when you were gonna do that. So we started stories, as Michelle quite rightly says, we were quite selective from the start. Almost almost selective by accident, really. I didn't have any particular plan, but it be it became apparent quite soon that I wanted just to not sell any. I nearly swore then, but what I always say is what I say is I don't want didn't want to sell any shit. That's that's what I thought. I thought I don't want to sell any shit. I've done long I've long enough I've done that for and I don't want to sell any shit. So we I was selected, it was me and Al, no one else at the start, and I just turned away stuff. I didn't know how to turn it away. I pissed a few people off. We've now learned how to turn it away. I didn't really know at the start. We were Story Estates when we first started, bit of a brighter green. So quite quickly I changed the branding and changed the name of the company to Stories. Went for a darker, more heritage green, did a new brand within, I don't know, a year of starting. Because because I realized that I needed to do something slightly differently. So I I was thinking about how I look without really thinking about how I look from quite early on in the process. And we were we were selective and that gave us a much slower start. So we had a very slow, slow in terms of listings. First year and then COVID hit and we all know what happened then. But being selective and making sure that the brand attracted that looked right to attract the right kind of people was very important from from very early on. So I had the luxury of being able to start a completely new brand. and I know as JK's discussed and Dave, we know we're we're all three of us have done it in different ways, but we're all now at the same kind of place basically. So yeah, we were selective and we we looked very hard at the brand very, very early on. do you know I look back now and I see some of the videos that I did where I went and stood outside other agents' houses and I just that the it it makes me smile and obviously if I hadn't done that I wouldn't be where I am now. But the stuff I went and stood outside, I wouldn't go and stand outside it now. But at the time I did 'cause I just wanted to get my face out there and get my name out there and start conversations with people and, you know, disrupt things a bit, make people realise there was a new kid on the block. And it works at the time. so the, you know, there's there's an element of trying to do things correctly and there's definitely an element of just fucking JFDI, you know, just get on with it and do it. And you've got to make yourself known and make yourself heard locally. but yeah Selective and really looking at how we looked as a brand happened very, very early on. Dave, talk to me about you, because obviously you started with your low end brand and then you added on a high end brand. Dave Warburton: Yeah, and to be honest, over the last couple of years I'd probably change my advice slightly. I mean that is obviously the case, isn't it? I was as I was listening to you both then, you know, you said something quite poignant to me then, Ian, where you got better at getting rid of people where that you didn't want to work with, you know, at first you pissed a few people off, but then you sort of get used to it. You have to go through that process, don't you, of learning how to deal with something that's new. And I suppose similarly with us, I mean, we we had we built a brand on the purple bricks model almost, you know, low fixed fees and volume, which looked f fan fantastic from the outside looking in, but was, I've said many times before, painful on the inside, a painful experience because ultimately we I was running out of money fast and we we obviously needed to recruit to handle the volume, et cetera, et cetera. And the the the money's just wasn't there. and in the first three years it was horrendous. Absolutely, utterly horrendous. Until I went back to a more traditionally a tru traditional estate agency model based on service and and quality. And then when all back now, when I say quality, like my God, chalk and cheese compared to what it was, you know, it was me. I'd I'd learnt how to use a camera myself. and you know JB was the same. It was a lot better than our compet our local competition to be fair. and we had a go at video in in any which way possible we could. So we you know we were always learning and and innovating at the time. But Yeah, I mean look, we we had a little a model called We Locate and it was designed to be something that I could scale and take into other avenues. So I set up a finance company which did really well on the back of that brand as as well. and the the the the model i is fine, you know, it picks up two bed terraces, three bed semis, four bed detached. But if we ever got a at the time, a f JK: Yeah. Dave Warburton: five hundred thousand pound property on a one percent fee, we'd all be doing cartwheels, I'd be buzzing. back in the day, you know, it it was unbelievable. And to think now that the team if if ever if if ever there's a fee lower than ten thousand pounds on the board, it's almost like, ugh, you know, there's a bit of it's a bit deflating. And JK: Mm. Dave Warburton: I don't want to set that to sound pompous in any way, shape or form. That's not what it's meant. What what it is meant to be is almost sort of a way of people seeing that this is real. You know, you can you can Ian: Doable. You can yeah, can. Yeah. Dave Warburton: It's absolutely doable. You you can go from two thousand five hundred pound average fee, which is what we were, we were lower than that when we first started, but let's just be realistic about where people might sit now, to you know, where we are now, which is about fourteen thousand pounds average fee. and the situation with me was I had this nice brand that was doing okay without me in it pretty much. I'd got to a point in twenty twenty, twenty twenty-one where i it I didn't really need to operate in it every day. I had really good team and my my valuer Jamie was was firing. So everything everything was great. And I've made that decision at the point at that point to go and explore. Like JK said, I've I've always been one to educate myself and attend different events that I felt would help me better me better myself. and like JK mentioned there, met some great people along the way. And and no better than I did, what, maybe three or four years ago when I when I met you two guys properly and got to know you both. And and that's where my my genuinely my life changed when I decided to have a go. You know, there were there were pe I was in a room with people who were getting average fees at seven sixteen and seventeen thousand pounds and and my mindset has always been, Well, if they're doing it, why can't I? You know, what JK: Mm-hmm. Dave Warburton: what is it that they're doing? So I quickly learned that actually, first first things first. JK: Yeah, Dave Warburton: honest conversation. If I walked into a valuation with my brand versus that brand over there who are charging 18,000 pound average fees, who's getting the instruction regardless of how good I am? And I had to say to myself, I'm not winning these properties. I'd had a go at it. I'd had a go at it with our existing brand with direct mail and and and and other other ways, knocking on doors. But the the reality is as good as I feel I am and the way that I carry myself in appointments and things like that, the confidence that I might have At some point, that client was going away and doing some research on me. So they'd they'd say that was you know, he he knew he was talking about, he might, you know, look the part, whatever. Well, let me come back to you and they'll they'll they'll go and have a look at my website. And what they'll see straight away is that we've got a load of two bed terraces, three bed semis, and a couple of detached houses for sale. My maximum value is five hundred grand. And they're they cannot resonate with what I'm doing. I can't back it up because I'm not selling their type of home. so the the the difficult decision I had was I needed to start again with a brand new brand, a completely new brand. and that that meant a lot of time, a lot of effort and going back to school and and learning. And that's what I did. And I managed to do it very, very quickly. And the brand that we've built now, Burt and James, it is w in in sort of four y four years, it is way ahead of what my other brand, way ahead of what my other brand is after 10. And that's because, you know, I've made all my mistakes and I've done all my learning. And the brand split without question is a great way, if you are already in it, to continue to have an income and start something that will probably replace that at some point in the future. And the reason I said my advice might change, I think that there are people out there that have got good brands that can be tweaked. Like I remember having a conversation with Ian many years ago, and about branding and all that sort of stuff and and were were you actually going to split and all that. Same with you, JK. And and you two guys just you know, for me, when I looked at your websites, the type of properties that you're already marketing and the type of marketing you're already doing, and your brand presence. to me it seemed like a no-brainer there's there's no extra brand needed. It it ju y you you could easily brand stretch, tweak things, refine, and you've both done it the best I've ever seen. Whereas when I looked at mine, honestly, not a chance. There's no way I could have stretched that brand. It was the wrong name, it was the wrong branding, the s the the processes, the setup, everything on it was geared up for low to mid range. So I had I had to go again and and I'm so glad I did. and I'm in a position now where I could I can stretch this brand. I've got it to that point where, you know, JK just alluded to it then. If you go on our website, the highest value home we've got is two and a half million that you can see. We've got a few we've got two at three million off market, but two and a half million. But if you keep scrolling, you'll see a three hundred and seventy five thousand pound terrace on a two percent fee. which I again, that that I could only dreamed of this sort of thing six years ago. and now it's the absolute norm. And what it's what it's done as I've got better and grown with the brand, it it's given me a level of confidence that is one of in fact Ellie who has started with me has been almost surprisingly, in a good way, shocked at how laid back I am. because when I go into evaluation, I I I I I am I'm really relaxed about whether I win it or not. It it's very rare that I come out of evaluation thinking, I've got to get that, I've got to get that house because I'm so confident in my ability to articulate value or a proposition, and I feel that I'm backing it up with the best marketing in in the area. Whereas with Wheel OK, it's so volume oriented, like it's not actually got that much volume anymore because I'm I'm letting it kind of Dwindle a little bit, but it was always volume oriented. The fees are so low, and well, re in comparison in particular, but the fees are so low, you're up against other agents who who can realistically do similar things, and they will race to the bottom on fees. So a lot of the time it comes down to well, they're doing that and they're doing that, and they've offered me 0.75%, and it's a 300,000 pound house. It's a different mindset from the client. Whereas where we are now, it's a case of, you know, this is what I charge and it's two percent plus Vats. And if there's ever a negotiation to be had, it won't be going anywhere below 1.5. And you know, our average house price is 900,000. So we've I just feel like we've got everything to back it up. So probably a long winded the story that, but it it's really important for me to add the context because it it was if you if you'd spoke to me in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. And said to me that in 2026 you'd have you know 35 houses on the market and your average fee is like around 14,000-15,000 pounds, I would have I would have laughed. Where I was at. I absolutely would. Michelle Smith: Ahem. Dave Warburton: And now I'm the one on the other side of the fence saying, please believe it. It is so possible. You you can do it. It is so possible, and I'm really passionate about it. There are that that y you can you can change overnight, first of all. You can just make the decision to do it. And then there are techniques that require consistency that will elevate you to the next level. It can be done. JK: Can just say on that, Michelle Smith: I love that Dave. JK: Dave, that there is no you can't sit in the lounge and go higgledy piggledy doo and someone goes, my god, you've said that now. That's two percent plus fat. Like Dave Warburton: Yeah. JK: it it comes from being a better agent and it comes from providing better marketing. Go on, Michelle. Michelle Smith: Just before we go anywhere else, listening to you all is really interesting and there was four themes that came out in all of you but in very different ways. So firstly there was either a push or pull motivator, so either you were in pain in the current way or you had an aspirational pull towards something which then kind of caused you to go and learn, that was the second thing. You all surrounded yourself with aspirational people you could learn from and you deconstructed success and modelled it, which is really important. I think if people don't know what to do next, if they want to get somewhere, actually modelling what somebody else does is a really powerful tool. The third thing that came out was you had real clarity and an unwavering commitment. And what I mean is It wasn't plain sailing. There were definitely obstacles on the way. Ian, you piss people off. I'm sure, you know, there were mistakes as well, but that didn't make you change path. You just learned from it, adapted and move forward. And I think that is a really pivotal thing with change. When things don't go smoothly, people can often take that as an indicator that they're on the wrong path or they've made the wrong decision or change is too difficult. or it's their market or it doesn't work for them in their area when actually it's just feedback to kind of adjust and move forward in a different way. And the fourth thing really was that unwavering belief that because others are doing it that I can do that too. So between all three of you, they seem to be the ingredients. And what I would invite any listeners to do is just have a think, you know, get some clarity. What is it that you actually want? And I would write it down. I'm a huge advocate of it. I think it helps you clarify your thoughts and your thinking. And once you've done that, honestly, look at your business visually. So look at your website, look at your social media, look at your branding, offices, if you have them, and your marketing and also your team. So just from a visual perspective, is what you want, so your clarity and your vision, are they aligned? And if they're not, they're the first things that you can work on. And whether you are day one of this process or you've already made some adjustments and amendments and you're clear, still review your business. I know JK, you've just done a refresh and it looks amazing and you're well into JK: Thanks. Michelle Smith: this journey. It's an evolving thing. So yeah, I found that really interesting because there were definitely those key themes that you all kind of spoke about. JK: I think you've got to be committed to constantly improving as well as as a business Michelle Smith: Yeah. JK: owner. You know, if you want to be at the top of the game, you know, and anyone in that's elite in sport or anything, like they never rest on the laurels and go, you know, okay, well, you know, I've I've I've won that trophy and that's it now. And then they just can you know continue doing what they're doing. You they've always you've got to push the boundaries and commit to getting better because if you're not moving forward, you're gonna be moving backwards. You know, and if you stay still, arguably you're gonna be moving backwards as well. so it's you know, always looking for not always looking because the thing is in a agency there is always that sort of magpie syndrome, they call it, don't they, in a state agency where everyone's looking for the shiny new thing to solve all of their problems. You know, at the moment there's a lot of talk about AI, and how that's gonna save everyone's problems and you know, how this soft piece of software is then gonna s solve everyone's problems, but you can't You can't just apply or buy software to to make you a better agent. You've got to be a better agent. You've got to commit to going and doing the things that other people don't wanna do. you know, in order to be able to get the the two percents and the upfront fees because you know, no one's gonna knock on the door and go, you know, I've got a two million pound house. I'd like to list it with you at at at two percent. You know, you've got to show them That you are the person. also you've you've got to, again, like Ian said earlier, you've got to disrupt, you've got to disrupt the universe. You know, you've got to put yourself in front of these people. It's, you know, on social media, you know, with direct mail, whether that's on the market or off off market content, you've got to get yourself out there in front of people and be willing to to put yourself out there in the universe. But also, you know, like like we've all done. be be committed and open minded to learn that there is another way. you know, for me, you know, ha having learned off off all of you on this podcast in in various different ways, you know, Dave's data loft valuation and data, like me and Ian, I think we b had a similar technique before and it's just completely transformed how we do all of our valuations, you know, in the way that, you know, we we do take the piss, but you know, Dave's little anecdotes and and quotes, the little nuggets that he dishes out. Like I use in the living room every single day. there'll be things that that Ian says, there's things I've picked up off you, Michelle, as well. And probably nothing that you guys have picked up off me. But there's but you know ultimately you've got to commit to being better and also be honest with yourself. Look at your website, you know In the nicest way, and this is gonna sound horribly judgmental here, but I feel like I can say it as a ex former fatty, you wouldn't choose the fat twenty twenty stone guy to run a marathon for you, would you? You know, if you had if you if you were looking for someone to run a marathon and you had a guy that trains every day and a guy that looks the part and has all the gear, like would you choose him to run the marathon for you? Or would you choose the twenty stone guy that I was once upon a time? To run 26 miles and and and win you a prize because a bit of a weird analogy, but that's what I'm all about. But do you see where I'm going with with that? You know, at the end of the day, again, it is how you look and it's it's how you get judged by people, you know, to put it back into context. If you've got a two million pound house and you want the best marketing, you know, you you've invested a lot of money in your home and you want it to look amazing, why are you gonna choose the person that takes photos on their iPhone? you know, doesn't wear particularly good clothes if they are doing video, they look a bit of a mess. Are you gonna choose them to be the one that represents your home? No. You're gonna want the person, huh? Dave Warburton: There's a point, okay, Kate. J just on the the the like photos and out and all that sort of stuff. Because obviously photos are getting better now and there's a lot of I would say poorer state agents as well using professional photography, things like that. It doesn't automatically make you premium. You know, it it's it's a regular occurrence that we will go through our pitch, which is extremely consistent, whether you're selling that three hundred and seventy five thousand pound I mentioned house I mentioned, or the two and a half million pound house I mentioned. Everything is always the same structure, the same team effort, everything the same goes into it. And you'll occasionally get an agent that says, yeah, well we can do that. And if you lose it to them, you look at the end product and it's not something that they do every day. So they don't know what actually they're actually doing and why they're doing it. They don't know why they've done it. And that that that's a big thing, becoming consistent in everything you do. But there's one thing that I wanted to make a point of as well, that in all of this, it's all well and good you making a change, which is what I did. many, many years ago now, you've got to get your team on the journey with you as well. And they've got to understand what it is that you are doing. and Michelle Smith: you Dave Warburton: that is something that I didn't really account for straight away. Like I was off on all my courses quite regularly, coming back with all this you know, new, new content, new ideas, people I'd met, feeding back a little bit, but in the background, I was building this thing ready to launch it. But at the time not really sharing enough as to what I was actually doing. I was just doing it myself quietly in the background. Everything else was ticking along. but they need to come on that journey with you. And it's so important that yeah. Michelle Smith: Can I just, sorry, Dave, can I just say one thing? Some great feedback that I've had from TCA members. Firstly is that we invite their team, they can bring team members with them to the actual in-person masterminds, which they just get so much from, but also that they can have access to the portal. Ian: Okay. Michelle Smith: So kind of any trainings that we put on there can be shared with the team. And I think you're dead right. I think it's such... You're only going to layer one of the five layer process. If you just do it yourself, how do you embed it within your team and how do you get them excited and energized and understand what needs to happen? So, you know, I don't think the members are wrong. I think there's a real reason why they love that side of TCA in helping their team as well. And also the work that I can then do further for them on a bespoke basis. So you're really right, you've got to get your team involved and on board. Dave Warburton: Yeah, we we've actually recently just redone all our like brand guidelines and we had a sit down last week and went through that and I think it's something that I'm gonna be doing more regularly with the team and it's about a lot of it is about them understanding the client and that journey that the that we're on because it's it's g there's a s you know there's a few things that there's a few niggly things in there that would b bothering me, it might have been The tone in a WhatsApp message. It might have been the way we delivered a bit of feedback. it might have been the way we reported an offer. There was a few things where I just thought, you know what? That just needs a tweak. And it wasn't just a case of saying, right, this is what I want you to do. It was a case of this is why we need to be different. And sorry, I've had to pause there. School holidays, you can see my son's head walking across the camera. Sorry for those listening. so yeah, it it just distracted me then. But yeah, the i I think it's it's really important that they understand why we're doing that and maybe what the type of client expects and that sort of concierge service that we want to go for. It's different level. th like I say, there's no point in me just going, right, guys, we're changing our offer process without any understanding whatsoever. and the one thing that I would credit my team with. Is although we've we you know it's a there are changes that have had to be made, they have come on this journey. They they really they they were excited by it. and like I said to you your jokes aside, the the when they see fees come in now, they're quite excited when and obviously it's a really great one, but it's become so normalized that we look at a six or seven thousand pound fee and think, you know, we're a little bit deflated by it because we know how far we've come. and obviously you can't forget your roots, but it's just it's great that we've been on that journey. And I've said it before, my my my great saying that JK and will definitely steal is that Wheelo Kate was my education and Burton James has been my graduation. And I feel like that is if I just think it's so achievable for anybody who's in this in in this industry doing okay, but wants to do something in this space. JK: Cool. Okay. Well I think it's probably a good place to call it this week. Is anything else for anyone else before we bid these people goodbye? Dave Warburton: I don't think so. JK: No. Cool. All right. Perfect. Well thanks everyone for listening. I just want a quick shout out to everyone that in the last week has joined our free Explorer membership on the portal as well. check the link below in the podcast and on the TCA website. there's a free Explorer membership available. So if you're interested in learning more and you could start your journey for free with TCA, then check out the website. And as always, thanks everyone. We will see you next week. Dave Warburton: Cheers. Ian: Five.