Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Why Anxiety Might Not Be What You Think - Root Causes of Stress & Women’s Mental Health with Dr. Ellen Vora
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: A DHD brain in many ways. It's not just distracted, it's tired, and it [00:00:05] is trying to keep itself awake through hyperactivity, [00:00:10] through hyperfocus on the things that are very rewarding, um, through all kinds of stimming [00:00:15] activities. Right? So it's a tired brain, and the reason it's tired is sometimes because of sleep disorder [00:00:20] breathing. [00:00:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: So if a child has a DHD and they are breathing through their [00:00:25] mouth while they sleep to me, we don't proceed until we have [00:00:30] addressed that breathing. [00:00:30] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow. [00:00:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because that's a. That's an exhausted brain 'cause it's never [00:00:35] getting proper oxygenation overnight and deep sleep. [00:00:38] Dr. Taz: Today I am bringing another friend [00:00:40] onto the show. [00:00:40] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming Dr. Ellen Vora. She's a board certified [00:00:45] psychiatrist and acupuncturist and a yoga teacher who takes a functional whole [00:00:50] person approach to mental health rather than suppressing symptoms with [00:00:55] medication. She focuses on root causes by integrating physical health, sleep, [00:01:00] nutrition, digestion, thought patterns, relationships, community, [00:01:05] and connection with nature and purpose. [00:01:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: We're taught that crying is [00:01:10] somehow the wrong thing to do, a weakness, a burden on the people around us. But I think [00:01:15] we've gotten that completely wrong. This is the wisdom of the body saying, you need a release [00:01:20] right now. Tears contain something called A CTH. Mm-hmm. Adrenal Cort Tropic Hormone, [00:01:25] a component of our stress cascade, but only emotional tears. [00:01:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:01:30] So if you're cutting an onion and tearing up those tears do not contain a [00:01:35] CTH. [00:01:35] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. [00:01:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: So emotional tears really are a medicinal process. It's a way the body [00:01:40] disburdens our bloodstream of our stress response. [00:01:41] Dr. Taz: Fascinating. [00:01:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:01:43] Dr. Taz: She's the author of The [00:01:45] Anatomy of Anxiety, where she offers a holistic framework for understanding anxiety, [00:01:50] not just as a label, but as a response rooted in physiology and life [00:01:55] context. [00:01:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: What we know about a medication like a benzo is that. Even though in the short [00:02:00] term it's actually quite effective, right? Like it, does it help with a panic attack in the moment? It does, but then [00:02:05] in the medium and long term, it seems to exacerbate the original problem. [00:02:10] And I've seen far too many people take their medication and not know [00:02:15] to attribute their daily panic attacks to the [00:02:20] interdose withdrawal. [00:02:20] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:02:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: That when they're coming down off that patient just day to [00:02:22] Dr. Taz: day. Like literally day to day. [00:02:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:02:25] Right. Okay. So I think these are the ways that just being a little bit more. Um, [00:02:30] cavalier about reaching for pharmaceuticals can actually introduce more mental [00:02:35] fragility, more panic, more suicidality, and I think it might.[00:02:40] [00:02:40] Dr. Taz: This episode is sponsored by Whole Plus, a holistic health platform built [00:02:45] around education, personalization, and integrative care. Whole plus blends [00:02:50] holistic, integrative and functional medicine clinics with learning resources like [00:02:55] blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this podcast. So you're not just treated, you're [00:03:00] informed. [00:03:00] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, [00:03:05] helping you make choices that support your body at the root level. Whole [00:03:10] Plus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. Visit [00:03:15] us@wholeplus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's HOL [00:03:19] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:03:20] ps.co. [00:03:21] Dr. Taz: All right. It's such a gift to be able to do these [00:03:25] episodes with friends and be able to kind of shed [00:03:30] light on some of the incredible work you know that so many of you are doing. [00:03:34] Dr. Taz: So I am so [00:03:35] thrilled to have you here today, Ellen. It's, it's a joy. I know Ellen from a lot of different venues, but [00:03:40] many of you may not know, but she's a psychiatrist. She's worked in the anxiety [00:03:45] space for a while. Her last book was The Anatomy of Anxiety. We're gonna jump right into [00:03:50] anxiety because it is the number one mental health condition out there. [00:03:54] Dr. Taz: I think it's [00:03:55] amongst kids, women, men. I mean, I think it's an epidemic. What's [00:04:00] going on? [00:04:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: What's going on with that? And thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Yes. So I think [00:04:05] there's so much that contributes to why it's such an epidemic, and I see it in as [00:04:10] two main avenues or pathways that lead us into so much anxiety.[00:04:15] [00:04:15] Dr. Ellen Vora: And the second one, I'll kind of go out of order. Yeah. The second one is the one that's [00:04:20] easier to hear and easier to swallow, and it's the one that most people resonate with, which is to [00:04:25] say, we come by our anxiety, honestly, we are viscerally [00:04:30] connected to the suffering in the world. We feel climate anxiety, we feel anxiety around [00:04:35] democracy. [00:04:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: We feel anxiety around all of these very real global [00:04:40] events, and we're feeling that. And so that's what I call in my book, true [00:04:45] Anxiety. It's our inner compass. It's nudging us, it's saying. Pay attention. Something is out of [00:04:50] alignment here and it's asking us to show up and help course correct something in the world [00:04:55] could be in our personal lives, our communities, the world at large. [00:04:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that's the one [00:05:00] we all think is the cause of our anxiety. And I do think it's, um, [00:05:05] I think it's attributable much of our anxiety does have to do with this [00:05:10] true our inner compass, but not all of it. And I think that [00:05:15] that's the kind of anxiety that's actually harder to resolve in the near term. It's [00:05:20] where I like to focus more of my energy with patients is what I think we can solve right [00:05:25] away. [00:05:25] Dr. Taz: So you're actually, that's interesting because you're seeing it, you're kind of framing [00:05:30] anxiety less as this is my problem as more of like, [00:05:35] this is a macro problem, it's a cultural problem. Mm-hmm. Is sort of what you're saying based [00:05:40] on. Everything happening around us currently. [00:05:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: That's right. True. Anxiety is not something to [00:05:45] pathologize. [00:05:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's not what's wrong with you. This is what's right with us when we are able to [00:05:50] viscerally connect to what's wrong around us. And so the fact that we live in a world [00:05:54] Dr. Taz: that's a [00:05:55] completely different way to talk about anxiety. [00:05:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:05:57] Dr. Taz: Because most people walk around with anxiety saying, [00:06:00] you like, I'm not enough, or something's wrong with me, or you know, or I have this regimen to [00:06:05] manage it, or whatever it is. [00:06:06] Dr. Taz: Right. Is seen as a negative Yes. That you're saying. No, that's, it's [00:06:10] good. It's 'cause you're intuitive. It's because you're connected. It's because [00:06:15] you, you can't box out into a hole and block everything else out that's happening with you. [00:06:20] Yeah. That is fascinating to me. [00:06:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: And our world tells us why are you being so sensitive? [00:06:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: And we blame ourselves. There's [00:06:25] a lot of negative self-talk that comes with it. But really, if someone has a lot of [00:06:30] true anxiety, I believe it's a sign of a wide open antenna. [00:06:35] An intact heart and wow, if you have a wide open [00:06:40] antenna, we do need to reframe, we need to recognize this is not something to [00:06:45] pathologize, this is a gift. [00:06:47] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's, but it is also a liability [00:06:50] because we live in a loud world. So if you have a wide open antenna, it's not something wrong with you, but [00:06:55] it is something that requires tremendous care. [00:06:57] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. Okay. So wide open antenna. We, uh, this [00:07:00] is, we better settle in here. We, we are gonna, we're gonna be at this thing. [00:07:04] Dr. Taz: [00:07:05] Okay. So wide open antenna. Let's talk about that for a minute. Someone listening or watching us is like, [00:07:10] what does she mean? Can you, can you help frame that a little bit? What, what do you [00:07:15] mean? How can someone identify with the fact that they may be a little bit more open and. [00:07:20] Receiving more input than somebody else. [00:07:22] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Well, I'll first acknowledge if [00:07:25] you're not someone with a wide open antenna, that's also not SEL pathologized. Right. I think that humanity [00:07:30] needs to represent the full spectrum of this. We need someone to be in the [00:07:35] OR and remain cool under pressure. We need a pilot. We need someone who can remain [00:07:40] unflappable, and that's not bad. [00:07:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: We need all of this represented in. The [00:07:45] human genome, but we also need someone who can't make it through the evening [00:07:50] news, without feeling like they're about to cry. Mm-hmm. Because we need that person too, who's gonna stay [00:07:55] so viscerally connected to the suffering around them that they're going, that they can't help but respond to [00:08:00] that. [00:08:00] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:08:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so if you have a wide open antenna, um, I do just want people [00:08:05] to embrace that, to recognize, even though our world says you're being so sensitive, [00:08:10] this is a superpower. That's an overused term. It's gotten pretty diluted. But [00:08:15] it is in a way, this preternatural ability to pick up on data [00:08:20] that other people aren't picking up on. [00:08:22] Dr. Ellen Vora: Whether that's coming through, um, a [00:08:25] very sophisticated neurologic system, whether it's something more supernatural, [00:08:30] who really knows. But I think some of us are taking in [00:08:35] information that other people are not aware of. [00:08:38] Dr. Taz: Well, what's the [00:08:40] answer for those type of folks then? Like, you know, are they supposed to block [00:08:45] off? [00:08:45] Dr. Taz: Are they supposed to shut down? We can't all retreat. I know some of us [00:08:50] like won't scroll at certain times. Yeah. Or won't watch the news consistently. But if [00:08:55] we're gonna stay in the context that, you know, anxiety is, is your sort [00:09:00] of visceral, you know, experience of, of the universe and what's happening. [00:09:05] You know, what does somebody do? [00:09:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. So I am not gonna advocate for blocking off though. I [00:09:10] know some people sometimes have to do that in the near term just to cope. [00:09:13] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:09:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: But I think of it [00:09:15] like. We all need to brush our teeth and hopefully we all floss. But if you have a wide [00:09:20] open antenna, you have a few more daily self-care practices that are required to keep you [00:09:25] intact and it's grounding practices. [00:09:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think we need more time [00:09:30] unplugged in stillness, in silence, ideally in nature. [00:09:34] Dr. Taz: [00:09:35] Mm-hmm. [00:09:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: Maybe you're doing the dishes and you choose not to listen to a podcast. You just allow [00:09:40] for silence or wordless music so that your brain can defragment and close down some [00:09:45] tabs. I think that we need to move a lot of emotion, so. [00:09:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Crying. I think tears are [00:09:50] very medicinal if you feel a lot on behalf of humanity. We're taught that crying [00:09:55] is somehow the wrong thing to do, a weakness, a burden on the people around us. [00:10:00] But I think we've gotten that completely wrong. Um, [00:10:03] Dr. Taz: I love that tears are [00:10:05] medicinal. [00:10:05] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:10:05] Dr. Taz: Not weakness. [00:10:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: No. This is the wisdom of the body saying you need a release [00:10:10] right now, and it offers it to us. [00:10:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: But then culturally, we've been conditioned to suppress it. The minute we [00:10:15] start to cry, we apologize, and then we try to make it as small and brief as [00:10:20] possible when in fact, I think we need to get better at crying in a bigger, [00:10:25] more complete, blubbery, ugly way. We, it's an [00:10:30] interesting data on tears, is that, um, tears contain [00:10:35] something called a CTH. [00:10:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. Adrenocorticotropic Hormone, a component of our stress [00:10:40] cascade, but. Only emotional tears. So if you're cutting an onion and [00:10:45] tearing up those tears do not contain a CTH. Oh [00:10:48] Dr. Taz: my gosh. [00:10:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: So emotional tears really [00:10:50] are a medicinal process. It's a way the body disburdens our bloodstream of our stress response. [00:10:54] Dr. Taz: [00:10:55] Fascinating. [00:10:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:10:56] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:10:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so we need to cry more if we have a wide open antenna. [00:11:00] And, and I think we do need boundaries. And something like not [00:11:05] looking at the phone first thing in the morning right before bed, putting some [00:11:10] parameters around doom scrolling and treating certain times of the day as sacred is very protective.[00:11:15] [00:11:15] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because I think when someone is so viscerally connected, they're at risk of [00:11:20] getting burned out. It's like empathy overload. [00:11:23] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:11:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: And um, but [00:11:25] ultimately that empathy, it's driven by a desire to wanna make a difference, to [00:11:30] be a force for good in the world. Yeah. But we can't carry out that work if we are [00:11:35] strung out, bleary-eyed undersleep, and where [00:11:40] our attention gets pulled to every new cause, every single day. [00:11:43] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:11:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: So we need. [00:11:45] A lot of discipline around it so that we can stay intact, rested [00:11:50] clear, and we can carry out our highest contribution [00:11:53] Dr. Taz: is there. And [00:11:55] especially as a, a psychiatrist, right? Like most people put anxiety in the box of this [00:12:00] is a psychological disorder. Right? And I know you've reframed it to say, you know, [00:12:05] this is, this is a person who's very in tuned with their environment and things like [00:12:10] that. [00:12:10] Dr. Taz: But how much is just like. Chemistry or physiological, right? Like [00:12:15] you're low in magnesium, you know, or your progesterone's off. So [00:12:20] how, how does somebody differentiate between like, this is a chemistry equation versus this is [00:12:25] a, you know, an issue with, uh, just being open. [00:12:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. So. You [00:12:30] brought me sort of to the, I went out of order. [00:12:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah, that's true. True anxiety is also not a [00:12:35] psychological condition. I think that that's a sign of strength. You're connecting to what's wrong. Right. [00:12:40] But then I do think that there's a lot that's driving our anxiety that we do want [00:12:45] to fix, but I don't believe that it's what we've been taught, what we've been taught is that [00:12:50] anxiety is a genetic, chemical imbalance. [00:12:51] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:12:52] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's your genes. Yep. It's your serotonin. [00:12:55] It's all happening right here from the neck up. [00:12:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:12:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that if you're anxious, [00:13:00] you um, you have this low serotonin, so no big deal. Correct it with a pill. And if [00:13:05] that, that's the narrative we've been given. If that worked [00:13:10] for more people, I could buy into that. [00:13:13] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:13:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: But I am [00:13:15] sitting here at the front lines. I've been in practice for 14 years and. [00:13:20] It doesn't work enough of the time. Mm. And so I see the people that wash up to shore [00:13:25] that have tried that approach, and they've tried this medication and then they increase the dose and then they [00:13:30] added an augmentation strategy, right? [00:13:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: And they start to feel like, well, I have a chemical [00:13:35] imbalance. It's supposed to be corrected with a pill. I'm still suffering, even though I'm highly medicated. Right. Highly [00:13:40] therapized. So people start to despair. They start to think maybe I am [00:13:45] uniquely beyond repair. Mm. It works for everybody else, but not for me. [00:13:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I don't want anybody [00:13:50] believing that they're stuck or that it's hopeless in that way. And I don't think it's true. [00:13:55] So when someone's anxious, I think of it as this has modifiable [00:14:00] root causes. Sometimes it's all that true anxiety. It's all the psychospiritual ways that [00:14:05] we're perceiving what's out of balance, but often it is simply that something is [00:14:10] outta balance in the physical body, not in a way that's your genetic destiny. [00:14:14] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:14:15] Mm-hmm. Just a temporary, stupid physiologic state of imbalance from aspects of [00:14:20] modern life blood sugar crashes. Yeah. A bad night of sleep, a hangover, an [00:14:25] extra cold brew coffee. We were up late doom scrolling these things that generate a stress response in the [00:14:30] body, and then we subjectively experience that stress response as anxiety, [00:14:35] but none of that needs to be happening. [00:14:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: We can identify the root cause, address it, [00:14:40] and eliminate all of this unnecessary suffering. [00:14:43] Dr. Taz: What would you say to people who [00:14:45] may not even be dialed into that diagnosis of anxiety right now, but they're just experiencing [00:14:50] things in their physical body? [00:14:51] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:14:51] Dr. Taz: Maybe even in their mental or emotional bodies. [00:14:53] Dr. Taz: What, how [00:14:55] would they know and is it even necessary? How would they know? Or is it even necessary to [00:15:00] call. Anxiety. Yeah. What is their, what can they kind of. [00:15:05] Recognize [00:15:05] Dr. Ellen Vora: this comes up a lot and, and, 'cause I'm talking about this [00:15:10] body mind connection. Yeah. And so sometimes someone will kind of come at [00:15:15] my philosophy on anxiety from the other direction and they'll kind of [00:15:20] say like, I'm having this stomach pain or this muscle tension. [00:15:23] Dr. Taz: Right. Right. [00:15:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I can tell that [00:15:25] what someone wants me to say is, oh, those physical symptoms are [00:15:30] actually anxiety. [00:15:31] Dr. Taz: I'm so curious what you're gonna say, [00:15:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: but I, I guess I'm not really in the business of [00:15:35] putting that word in someone's mouth if they're not already subjectively identifying with it. I don't think it's the [00:15:40] greatest term, but since we must misunderstand the concept so much, I feel like it just adds more [00:15:45] complexity to the picture. [00:15:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. I want. Relief from their suffering. [00:15:48] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:15:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And when, [00:15:50] when we're thinking about like the gut brain connection [00:15:52] Dr. Taz: mm-hmm. [00:15:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: So much of the time [00:15:55] that conversation is focused on the fact, it's like a top down communication, right? That if we're [00:16:00] stressed, if we're anxious, it will impact our gut. [00:16:02] Dr. Taz: Right? [00:16:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: So if someone is saying, I have all these digestive issues, I [00:16:05] have IBS, and then someone says, it's actually just your anxiety. [00:16:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: They're like, oh, it's my anxiety. But that [00:16:10] doesn't really give us a path to relief from suffering. 'cause that takes us right back to where we started, [00:16:15] which is, so I guess you should try Lexapro. [00:16:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:16:17] Dr. Ellen Vora: And then go down that journey. [00:16:20] Whereas I think that. I'm more interested in the bottom up part of that [00:16:25] conversation. [00:16:25] Dr. Ellen Vora: Okay. Which is to say, yeah, your gut is unwell because whose [00:16:30] isn't. In modern life, we've been subjected to multiple courses of antibiotics and [00:16:35] chlorinated tap water, and we don't consume fermented foods and we're not playing in soil. So we're missing [00:16:40] microbes. We're missing diversity. We are consuming Roundup, it's inflaming our gut lining. [00:16:44] Dr. Ellen Vora: We have [00:16:45] all of these ways that our gut are is compromised and that is contributing [00:16:50] to the anxiety and the stress. So I like that because it's the easier [00:16:55] entry point. If the gut is unwell, let's focus on healing the gut. We can do [00:17:00] that as opposed to if we're anxious and that's contributing to digestive [00:17:05] symptoms, that's a long road ahead. [00:17:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. And it's often not even a very effective [00:17:10] pathway to fighting relief from symptoms. So I prefer to look at it as there's two way [00:17:15] communication between the gut and the brain. And the easier and more effective place to start is the gut. [00:17:20] [00:17:21] Dr. Taz: Yeah, so do you start with the, probably the greatest [00:17:25] physiological pain point. [00:17:26] Dr. Taz: Is that kind of like a. Good way of people to think about it. Like if they're [00:17:30] having more gut symptoms versus more like cognitive symptoms versus sleep, you know? [00:17:35] [00:17:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:17:35] Dr. Taz: How, like, what's a kind of a, sort of a, a way for them to [00:17:40] begin [00:17:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: It is different with every single patient. Absolutely. Based on a million [00:17:45] considerations and often just what are they able to start with, [00:17:47] Dr. Taz: right? [00:17:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because [00:17:48] Dr. Taz: right. [00:17:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: One person [00:17:50] wants to take supplements, someone else needs to get into bed earlier and it Right. It just varies. But, [00:17:55] um, I think what I've learned over time is that there are few things I reach [00:18:00] for that seem to be approachable enough that are somewhat [00:18:05] universally impactful. Okay. And can make, can be a quick win. [00:18:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: And then get someone down a [00:18:10] path where they can make more changes. I like someone to keep the phone outta the bedroom at [00:18:15] bedtime. Just that alone. [00:18:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:18:17] Dr. Ellen Vora: Setting up your charger somewhere else in your home and then around [00:18:20] let's say nine o'clock, you kiss your phone goodnight like phone, I love you, I'm gonna miss you. [00:18:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: You enter [00:18:25] your bedroom without your phone, you read Nu Han or something, life affirming, and then you fall [00:18:30] asleep. And that works on multiple dimensions. 'cause then you're not seeing the blue spectrum [00:18:35] light of the screen suppressing melatonin. Disrupting the circadian rhythm. We're not [00:18:40] doom scrolling, which we live in the attention economy. [00:18:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Which means that this has been [00:18:45] designed to be addictive. Yeah. This is endless scroll. So we don't ever have a stopping cue that [00:18:50] tells us, Hey, this might be a good time to put the phone away and go to bed. We scroll endlessly so we stay up [00:18:55] later. We don't get good [00:18:55] Dr. Taz: sleep. Is that your like number one thing? [00:18:57] Dr. Taz: Is it technology and the blue [00:19:00] light like. Number one thing. If you need a starting point, [00:19:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: it's probably that [00:19:04] Dr. Taz: there, [00:19:04] Dr. Ellen Vora: or [00:19:05] like getting a Squatty Potty. Wait, why [00:19:07] Dr. Taz: a Squatty Potty? The [00:19:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: Squatty Potty [00:19:10] is this stool that goes up the base of the toilet and it helps us [00:19:15] restore anatomical position for elimination. [00:19:18] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:19:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that is so [00:19:20] impactful. So for so many people and it's, it's, I like an intervention that [00:19:25] is inexpensive, non-invasive, has biologic plausibility for why it works [00:19:30] and it can change your life. Mm. Squatty potty and blue blocking glasses. And we're the we [00:19:35] bedroom. We're set. [00:19:36] Dr. Taz: All right. Well I do wanna ask, uh, in all [00:19:40] seriousness between the anxiety toolbox that's out there, which is growing and massive and [00:19:45] probably more things are being added as we speak. [00:19:47] Dr. Taz: We've got everything from [00:19:50] mindfulness and meditation work apps that go with that, right? [00:19:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:19:54] Dr. Taz: To, [00:19:55] uh, supplements. Even I've, you know, mentioned so many of them over the years. Gaba, [00:20:00] theanine, magnesium, I could go on to medications [00:20:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: mm-hmm. [00:20:04] Dr. Taz: [00:20:05] To acupuncture, craniosacral therapy. Now we have PMF [00:20:10] mats, grounding mats, grounding sheets, uh, I'm sure I've forgotten so [00:20:15] many, but the, and then we have of course, the world of pharmaceuticals. [00:20:18] Dr. Taz: We've got a massive [00:20:20] anxiety toolbox. Talk to us about. How we need to [00:20:25] think about that toolbox, how we need to navigate it to not get overwhelmed when you already have [00:20:30] anxiety and what is the role of pharmaceuticals in this equation? [00:20:34] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:20:35] Yeah. So, so much of that toolbox and it, it's interesting, I'm curious how listeners feel when they hear that [00:20:40] I, as someone who professionally doles out these tools, familiar with this toolbox, like [00:20:45] I kind of have to catch my breath right after hearing it. [00:20:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. Right. It's overwhelming [00:20:49] Dr. Taz: even as I say [00:20:50] it, I'm just like, oh my gosh. [00:20:51] Dr. Ellen Vora: Gives [00:20:52] Dr. Taz: us anxiety. Yeah. [00:20:52] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so I don't, none of [00:20:55] that is my first line. And I think a lot of those tools, they're all useful, that many of them have evidence [00:21:00] to back up their utility. Um, they're all in my armamentarium. I'm reaching for each of those [00:21:05] sometimes. [00:21:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: But, um, I think it overlooks the [00:21:10] fundamentals and it still has the same narrative of [00:21:15] if you're anxious, you know, if we're taught that if you're anxious, it's a. [00:21:20] Zoloft deficiency disorder. Right. We've subbed in like it's an L-theanine deficiency disorder. Right. But it [00:21:25] still assumes something broken about us. [00:21:27] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I think what I, per, the way I [00:21:30] prefer to look at it is that your body works. Your body is pretty well designed. [00:21:35] Exceptions are the knee joints and menopause, but it is a pretty good design. Mm-hmm. [00:21:40] And, um, if it is not well then we have to look at the inputs. [00:21:45] What are we not giving our body that helps us feel intact? [00:21:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: What are we putting in that's [00:21:50] getting us outta balance? And so I don't even wanna start band-aiding Gotcha. Until we've addressed the [00:21:55] foundation. And the foundation is primarily sleep. [00:22:00] Nourishment and movement. Mm. [00:22:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: And you could add a kind of an eye towards the [00:22:05] psychospiritual needs. Mm-hmm. We have like community. [00:22:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. Like a sense of [00:22:10] purpose in our lives, connection to nature. But that is the next chapter. But I think even just [00:22:15] looking at sleep, nourishment and movement and making sure those are locked in [00:22:20] before we start reaching for supplements and pharmaceuticals. [00:22:22] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and [00:22:25] thinking, I know something is often my body, but I don't know where to start.[00:22:30] [00:22:30] Dr. Taz: This is for you. That's why I created the circle. The circle [00:22:35] is my private community where I and my team focus on understanding your body [00:22:40] from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity with real life guidance that [00:22:45] you can actually use. This is about clarity and consistency and support [00:22:50] beyond the exam room and maybe outside of all the different appointments and [00:22:55] experts that you've been running around to. [00:22:57] Dr. Taz: You can try the circle with a one month trial [00:23:00] using the promo code podcast@wholeplus.co back slash circle. [00:23:05] Again, that's whole plus HOL [00:23:10] ppls.co/circle. Alright, let's jump back into the episode and what is your sort of [00:23:15] experience with the pharmaceuticals outta curiosity? Like when do you feel like it's the right [00:23:20] time to grab one of those? [00:23:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: I feel like it's the right time. Uh, the way I look at [00:23:25] them is that they can be a bridge, they can be an outstretched hand that pulls someone out of a very dark [00:23:30] place and helps them get onto solid ground so that they can, right, do the practices that get sleep and [00:23:35] nourishment locked in. But um, I think that [00:23:40] their efficacy is disappointing and I.[00:23:45] [00:23:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: I took an oath of first do no harm. [00:23:47] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:23:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And what I can no [00:23:50] longer feel in my bones is that starting someone on a [00:23:55] pharmaceutical is, um, my best attempt at [00:24:00] mitigating harm. [00:24:00] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow. [00:24:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and I, and it, I'm quick to [00:24:05] follow that up by saying I'm a psychiatrist. I prescribe these medications. Right. I don't have any [00:24:10] dogmatic, uh, philosophy against them. [00:24:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: And if someone's listening right now and taking them, which [00:24:15] I'm sure, I'm sure there are on the majority, perhaps, um, it, you [00:24:20] shouldn't second guess that or look back. The question is always, is it helping you? And if it is, great. [00:24:24] Dr. Taz: [00:24:25] Right. [00:24:25] Dr. Ellen Vora: And if it isn't, then I want you to know you're not stuck and we have [00:24:30] so many ways to support you. [00:24:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: But the thing that has me most hesitant about [00:24:35] starting someone on a medication Yes. Is actually the withdrawal process. [00:24:38] Dr. Taz: Yes. I know. I've [00:24:40] witnessed that firsthand on patients. [00:24:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: And it's under. Represented and [00:24:45] discussed. We are not taught about this. Even psychiatrists are not taught about this. We [00:24:50] are taught to say that if someone goes off their medication and they become symptomatic, we call that a [00:24:55] relapse. [00:24:55] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:24:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: What I have now come to appreciate is that we can't even speak to whether or not someone's in a [00:25:00] relapse, because in that moment they're in withdrawal. [00:25:02] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:25:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that is the lion's share of [00:25:05] what's creating their symptoms. [00:25:07] Dr. Taz: So I'll never forget the day I had, you know, it was early [00:25:10] in practice in my practice years, and I had a patient on Venlafaxine. [00:25:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:25:14] Dr. Taz: [00:25:15] And she pulled herself off, you know, without guidance [00:25:20] and just thought like, okay, I'm better. I can do this now. And showed up in my [00:25:25] exam room on the floor, like riding around with her husband. You know, like her husband was just, I don't know [00:25:30] what to do with her. You know, the withdrawal was so severe. [00:25:33] Dr. Taz: So, you know, [00:25:35] again. And I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but as a practicing [00:25:40] psychiatrist, where many feel like the greatest criticism, you know, [00:25:45] we have a psychiatry today. To be completely honest, I think the greatest criticism of [00:25:50] psychiatry is that it's pharmaceutical based. That you go there to get a prescription. [00:25:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:25:53] Dr. Taz: Versus going to a [00:25:55] psychologist or a therapist or somebody else. Right. You know? What would you say to that? Like what would you say to [00:26:00] the field of psychiatry in general and where it's trending or heading? Are they there with you [00:26:05] in seeing that there's a place for it? But so many patients, [00:26:10] Ellen, like to this day come in. [00:26:11] Dr. Taz: Oh yeah, I've been on Zoloft for like 20 years, or I've been [00:26:15] on Prozac since I was 15. Or I, you know what I mean? Like they have this long history [00:26:20] with the medications. [00:26:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:26:21] Dr. Taz: You know, so where's the field of psychiatry [00:26:25] headed? What do we do with people that have been on medications for such a long period of [00:26:30] time? [00:26:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. I mean, I do think that my field, if we are not in [00:26:35] crisis, we should consider ourselves to be in crisis. But I, but I think that I wanna give [00:26:40] grace in a couple different ways. Yeah. One is that I have yet to, to think, [00:26:45] I, when I see individual practitioners, I know these people. They're my colleagues. [00:26:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. We went to med school with them. [00:26:50] Right. Residency. These are very hardworking, very caring [00:26:53] Dr. Taz: individuals. No falls on the individuals. [00:26:55] I'm talking about the system. The system in which we were all trained. [00:26:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:26:59] Dr. Taz: The [00:27:00] practice of this, like what will it take? To [00:27:05] shift the field to a different place. [00:27:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:27:07] Dr. Taz: Doctors are amazing. I've always said that I don't think I've [00:27:10] met a doctor that went into medicine without any other purpose [00:27:15] other than I wanna help people and serve. Yeah. This is not a profession that you go into, like to make a quick [00:27:20] buck or like, you know, or any of those things, you know? So it's, this is not about [00:27:25] the physicians, it's about the field and the [00:27:30] mill that we're all put into, right? [00:27:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. And told that this is the way we should be [00:27:35] practicing. That's kind of where [00:27:37] Dr. Ellen Vora: it's our training. [00:27:38] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:27:38] Dr. Ellen Vora: And we're cogs in a machine [00:27:40] that's much bigger than any individual and maybe has some, at least [00:27:45] financially motivated interests that are influencing our clinical decision making. Yeah. [00:27:50] But I think that, you know, to take many steps back, this all started as [00:27:55] I think a very earnest attempt to help find relief for people. [00:27:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. And they saw [00:28:00] tuberculosis meds. Yeah. Modulating serotonin, creating relief from depression. They're like, oh, you know, this is [00:28:05] something we should pursue. And it, it came with this transition from a very morally stigmatizing [00:28:10] approach to mental health. Like, yeah, it's a relationship with your mother. [00:28:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's a moral infirmity, right. [00:28:15] To the disease model of mental health that said, no, nevermind we got that wrong. It's your genes, [00:28:20] it's your serotonin. Which came with a lot of, uh, alleviation of. The [00:28:25] stigma, it basically said, this isn't your fault. Mm-hmm. This is your genes and it's [00:28:30] inevitability. [00:28:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:28:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that was the spirit of that was beautiful. [00:28:33] Dr. Ellen Vora: Where we are now is [00:28:35] that that narrative only gets you so far. If the meds work for you, [00:28:40] you're okay if the meds don't work for you. That narrative actually can create quite a lot of hopelessness [00:28:45] and it's not even our most accurate narrative about mental health anyway. And then it [00:28:50] really sets us up to, um, make a lot of money for the pharmaceutical industry. [00:28:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Yeah. And, and [00:28:55] so to me, mental health is the body outta balance. Mental [00:29:00] health is physical health. And I just want someone to experience relief from suffering. I think of it all like a [00:29:05] mountain. Mm-hmm. Healing is this summiting a mountain. Getting to the top of the mountain means you're [00:29:10] feeling well. [00:29:10] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. You're hopeful. You have energy, clear thinking. You're thriving in your life. [00:29:15] And we're currently seeing, there are these two paths up this mountain. [00:29:20] It's psychotherapy and medication. And for some people those paths get them all the [00:29:25] way to the top and that's a victory. But there are many people who hit a dead [00:29:30] end. [00:29:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm. And then hit multiple dead ends. Trying to take different approaches to [00:29:35] this. And what I really wanna encourage the conversation to expand to is [00:29:40] bush whacking. [00:29:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:29:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: Bush whacking up this mountain that you can get to the dead end of meds and therapy. And [00:29:45] you can say, well there's actually this other little not so well worn path over here that looks at the role [00:29:50] of inflammation. [00:29:50] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Or the role of sleep apnea or mouth breathing. Mm-hmm. Or vitamin [00:29:55] B12 or end. And and mm-hmm. And so, um, when. When someone is [00:30:00] getting stuck, I just want them to know there are other ways, there are other [00:30:02] Dr. Taz: ways, [00:30:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: this mountain, [00:30:03] Dr. Taz: there are ways that there are other ways to deal with this. [00:30:05] I wanna talk about kids for a second. [00:30:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:30:07] Dr. Taz: I think, you know, I have an 18-year-old, as I told you, headed off [00:30:10] to college. Uh, she has friends, we've been observing and watching [00:30:15] them over the last probably, you know, six or seven years. And the prevalence [00:30:20] of anxiety amongst her community, especially amongst our girls is, is [00:30:25] pretty high. You know, and we see it in practice as well. [00:30:27] Dr. Taz: So, you know, what's happening with [00:30:30] our children, you know? Mm-hmm. And their anxiety levels. [00:30:35] And now the prescribing to them and, you know, I, I share the story often. Like [00:30:40] she was going through a pretty dark spot in middle school and, you know, it was really [00:30:45] due to social. I don't wanna say isolation, that's not a fair word, but like, sort of [00:30:50] social displacement maybe that's a better word. [00:30:52] Dr. Taz: You know? [00:30:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:30:53] Dr. Taz: And I think that was [00:30:55] the root for her and, and just kind of feeling older than the people around her and not really finding her [00:31:00] people, whatever, whatever we wanna call it. That's a story for her to tell one day. But bottom line [00:31:05] is we had already tried a few things and I almost out of pseudo [00:31:10] desperation, you know, uh, I agreed to have her started on a. [00:31:14] Dr. Taz: Very low [00:31:15] dose anxiety medication. And then I think a week or so later I had my, it was like my 50th birthday [00:31:20] party. So I went outta town for the first time. The last time I was outta town with her was when she was like 18 months old. [00:31:25] And sure enough, within 24 to 48 hours, she had a horrific reaction. So it's scared us [00:31:30] both away from any type of anxiety medication moving forward. [00:31:34] Dr. Taz: But [00:31:35] you know, I see these kids all the time in our practices and in our communities that are on these [00:31:40] medications that have a diagnosis of anxiety. You know, I don't feel good about it for our [00:31:45] children. I feel like we need to be thinking about this differently. You know? What would you say to that? [00:31:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: A [00:31:50] lot. [00:31:50] Dr. Ellen Vora: So [00:31:52] Dr. Taz: I set this one up. [00:31:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Lemme see [00:31:55] if I, because I have like six bullet points. Alright, got it. So one is that [00:31:58] Dr. Taz: edit, edit, edit. [00:31:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: The the, the [00:32:00] youth have an intact antenna. Yeah. Right. So like they are feeling. We're all so old and [00:32:05] concretized and their feeling on behalf of humanity, what's like the way [00:32:10] our trajectory is off and how if you play this out over months, years, centuries, like we are [00:32:15] headed for destruction. [00:32:15] Dr. Ellen Vora: They're sensing that they have a lot of true anxiety and let's honor that. And [00:32:20] yet I think there's so much, what I would call false or physical or avoidable [00:32:25] anxiety happening in young people. Some of that is the work of Jonathan Hyatt and Jean [00:32:30] Twenge and just screens and social media has been so [00:32:35] destructive, [00:32:35] Dr. Taz: detrimental, [00:32:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: and it hit their brains at a time when they're still forming wiring [00:32:40] and in a way that I think we'll just continue to, um, see the devastation of [00:32:45] that. [00:32:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: And it's just horrifying. And I don't think anyone did anything [00:32:50] wrong here. Yeah, it was, I like the analogy of it's a car was invented before seat belts were [00:32:55] invented. Yeah. So we were driving around without seat belts for a while, and now we're like, oh, this is a [00:33:00] dangerous, this is, this has utility. We're not. [00:33:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: Going back to the horse and [00:33:05] buggy, but we need some safety measures. [00:33:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:33:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that there's also a way that [00:33:10] y younger generations have been incubated in a very [00:33:15] inflammatory environment. Uh, and so I think that [00:33:20] physiologically they are, they're missing certain nutrients, certain microbes. I think that [00:33:25] there's a lot that's outta balance. [00:33:26] Dr. Ellen Vora: The psychiatric medication piece, I heard on your podcast [00:33:30] at the United States, we take 80% of the world's pharmaceuticals [00:33:35] and w. I imagine like if you're facing, when a child is in [00:33:40] crisis, you'll do anything, right? It's out of desperation. You just want them to be okay, and this is [00:33:45] the, what the world says. [00:33:46] Dr. Ellen Vora: This is what it means to do something about it, is to see a psychiatrist get put on [00:33:50] something. And I think we just need to approach that initial [00:33:55] decision with so much care. Mm-hmm. Because I think we have an attitude of [00:34:00] let's give it a try. Let's see if it helps. If it doesn't help, no harm, no foul. [00:34:05] And I think that the tricky thing about these medications is that sometimes in a way that's [00:34:10] unpredictable, it can. [00:34:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: Cause harm. [00:34:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:34:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: And it can, I think, [00:34:15] entrench a certain amount of fragility. I, I think the withdrawal from going off a [00:34:20] medication is a serious issue that we need to be talking about much more. Yeah. And how to mitigate it and how to approach [00:34:25] it. But even something called interdose withdrawal matters. [00:34:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: And that's where, [00:34:30] let's say someone's taking a benzo like Xanax, right. Or Klonopin. And [00:34:35] they take their medication in the morning and then they're suddenly on a, [00:34:40] a, you know, kind of. Pharmacokinetic curve. [00:34:43] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:34:44] Dr. Ellen Vora: And at a [00:34:45] certain point, their body's coming down off of that medication. For some people that can [00:34:50] feel, um, devastating, people can feel really off in that state. [00:34:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: They can [00:34:55] feel hopeless. They can have dark thoughts, they can have suicidal thoughts. They can feel like they wanna crawl out of their [00:35:00] skin. Yeah. They're just irritable. They can't sleep and they can have panic attacks. So [00:35:05] what we know about a medication like a benzo is that even though in the short [00:35:10] term, it's actually quite effective, [00:35:11] Dr. Taz: right. [00:35:11] Dr. Ellen Vora: Does it help with a panic attack in the moment? It does. Yeah. [00:35:15] Um, but then in the medium and long term, it seems to exacerbate the original [00:35:20] problem. And I've seen far too many people take their medication [00:35:25] and not know to attribute their daily panic attacks to [00:35:30] the interdose withdrawal that when they're coming down off that medication [00:35:33] Dr. Taz: just day to day. [00:35:34] Dr. Taz: Like [00:35:35] literally day to day. [00:35:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right. Okay. And so I think these are the ways that just being a little bit more, [00:35:40] um, cavalier about reaching for pharmaceuticals can actually introduce [00:35:45] more mental fragility, more panic, more suicidality, and I think it might play an [00:35:50] underappreciated role in the ways that. To be a teenager is hard. [00:35:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. Really [00:35:55] hard. Yeah. It's gotten harder. And then I think we might have inadvertently trying to help created a [00:36:00] whole other thing for people to be grappling with, which is the pinball [00:36:05] game that's set up by the pharmaceuticals themselves. [00:36:07] Dr. Taz: And then to, to couple that, like [00:36:10] where do the A DHD medications fit into this equation? [00:36:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: Who I, I'm, I [00:36:15] guess I'm just not gonna make friends today. So [00:36:17] Dr. Taz: that's, no, we, we need to be [00:36:20] honest, we need to have honest conversations. We need to educate people. Yeah. Because, [00:36:25] you know, you're, you know, walking out of an appointment with a couple of different [00:36:30] pharmaceuticals, you know, I know people listening to the show want a different approach, but like, I [00:36:35] also want a, a guided approach, right? [00:36:37] Dr. Taz: Like, we want like that middle road. So what is that [00:36:40] middle road? [00:36:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:36:41] Dr. Taz: Again, not to share my own personal stories over and over again, but again, same [00:36:45] daughter has a DD has a DHD, right? Refused to put her on medicine, refused to put her on [00:36:50] medicine, refused to put her on medicine until she hit her junior year because she, she drove that [00:36:55] decision. [00:36:55] Dr. Taz: She's like, everyone around me is on it. It's unfair. I'm [00:37:00] struggling. And sure enough, we put her on it that year and like her grades were better than [00:37:05] they've ever been throughout her, you know, the last, the last few years of her schooling. And probably made a [00:37:10] difference with how she felt about herself and her self-esteem. [00:37:12] Dr. Taz: So I'm not trying to take any of that away. [00:37:15] However, she does ride the highs and lows of that inter [00:37:20] dosing that you're talking about. In fact, there was a holiday season last year where I think she didn't take it 'cause [00:37:25] she just didn't wanna take it. She was a fricking nightmare to be around, you know, crying on the floor, crying [00:37:30] about an outfit, crying about, you know, and it was just like, okay, what, what boat are we on today? [00:37:34] Dr. Taz: You [00:37:35] know, is sort of how, how I felt as a parent, you know? So, again, like. I'm [00:37:40] so empathetic to kids and parents in these positions, but what [00:37:44] Dr. Ellen Vora: are we [00:37:45] supposed to do with A DHD and stimulants? I don't think there is an easy answer. There's not a one [00:37:50] size fits all. Um, I'm gonna, in a moment talk about some physiologic ways we can [00:37:55] support A DHD behaviors, but I don't mean it as a denial of the very real genetic [00:38:00] component to A A DH. [00:38:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: ADHD is a, is a real entity. It's happening. Yeah. Um, [00:38:05] and, and I think that sometimes stimulants help someone [00:38:10] enormously can influence the trajectory of whether they have a sense of their own identity [00:38:15] as, I'm a mess up, I'm not. Performing well in school. I'm always disorganized, I'm always [00:38:20] losing things, I'm always messing. [00:38:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right? Like people can take on this sense of themselves and then that's [00:38:25] shaping their belief of, of who they can be in the world. Yeah. And we don't want that. So sometimes the medication [00:38:30] can really rescue someone from that. And it comes with the ose withdrawal, it comes with the come down, it [00:38:35] comes with the sometimes appetite suppression during the day and dehydration, and then [00:38:40] irritability. [00:38:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: At the end of the day, maybe impacting sleep, may be creating anxiety that requires other medications. [00:38:45] So there's no easy answer there. I think that, um, a kind of a. [00:38:50] Like to me, a no-brainer approach to A DHD is to [00:38:55] at least start with all the physiologic support we can do at the beginning. And it may or may [00:39:00] not solve the problem. [00:39:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But, um, when I think [00:39:05] about A-D-H-D-I first think about sleep. Mm. And when I think about sleep, I think about [00:39:10] breathing. So what I mean by that is that an A DHD brain in many ways, it's not just [00:39:15] distracted, it's um. It's tired and it is trying [00:39:20] to keep itself awake through hyperactivity, through [00:39:25] hyperfocus on the things that are very rewarding, um, through all kinds of stimming activities. [00:39:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: Right? So [00:39:30] it's a tired brain and the reason it's tired is sometimes because of sleep disorder breathing. [00:39:35] So if a child has a DHD and they are breathing through their mouth while they [00:39:40] sleep to me, we don't proceed until we have addressed that [00:39:45] breathing. Oh, [00:39:45] Dr. Taz: wow. [00:39:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because that's a, that's an exhausted brain 'cause it's never getting [00:39:50] proper oxygenation overnight and deep sleep. [00:39:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so all of those A DHD [00:39:55] behaviors during the day are in many ways just the tired brain, uh, compensating [00:40:00] and, um, you wanna get someone breathing through the nose, getting deep restorative sleep [00:40:05] every night. And then we'll talk about the behaviors during the day, but often that can [00:40:10] transform how someone shows up during the day. [00:40:12] Dr. Ellen Vora: Inflammation. Nourishment, [00:40:15] certain micronutrients, zinc, [00:40:16] Dr. Taz: really [00:40:16] Dr. Ellen Vora: building that [00:40:17] Dr. Taz: foundation [00:40:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: first. It all matters. And we [00:40:20] live in this moment where, um, kids navigate a [00:40:25] minefield of, uh, food dies and preservatives. Mm-hmm. And even though that has become [00:40:30] political, [00:40:30] Dr. Taz: I know. [00:40:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: A very famous doctor called it moving deck [00:40:35] chairs around on the Titanic. [00:40:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:40:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. But I think I like that actually. Well, yes I do [00:40:40] too, but it's, um, but I think it does matter and, um, is [00:40:45] it our single most important public health issue? No. [00:40:47] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:40:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: But, um, right [00:40:50] now, even like, I'm a very proactive health conscious parent and [00:40:55] does my daughter go a week without consuming red 40? [00:40:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: Probably not. No. Yeah, because [00:41:00] it's just in the waters we swim in. Right. And it's so hard to avoid. [00:41:05] And those we do have data. Um, the medical literature supports the fact that they can create [00:41:10] hyperactivity and inattentive symptoms in children, um, preservatives as well. So the [00:41:15] food matters. So if someone is chugging a blue drink and consuming red 40 [00:41:20] candy and breathing through their mouth at night, we wanna address that before, before we start [00:41:25] the medication that has pros and cons. [00:41:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: I like the things that only have [00:41:30] pros. Addressing those things, for the most part, can only benefit, has side benefits rather than side effects. [00:41:35] [00:41:35] Dr. Taz: Okay. I wanna ask one more question about pharmaceuticals, and I promise we'll move on. Do you believe at all, I've actually [00:41:40] given this some thought. I don't know that I've actually. [00:41:42] Dr. Taz: Practice it, but you know, how we're [00:41:45] microdosing GLP ones and microdosing different things. Is there an opportunity to microdose [00:41:50] pharmaceuticals, so micro doses, for example, of an [00:41:55] SSRI or micro doses of an A DHD medication rather than these larger [00:42:00] doses, you know? [00:42:00] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:42:01] Dr. Taz: Could that be a place where there's intersection of these worlds? [00:42:04] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that's [00:42:05] so interesting. Um, I would say for a lot of these things, a microdose would be better than a [00:42:10] microdose. I do think a lot of these medications are, dosing is based on like [00:42:15] adult male physiology. It's probably wildly inappropriate for a cycling female body for a [00:42:20] child's body. We already, we kind of had that oopsie that happened with Ambien where mm-hmm. [00:42:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:42:25] Women were taking the regular dose, but then having more traffic accident fatal, or traffic [00:42:30] accidents and fatalities from that. And it turns out that's an inappropriate dose for female physiology, right? There's [00:42:35] the fact that in the seventies, eighties, even the boom of the nineties where we're developing all these drugs, [00:42:40] women weren't included in the studies, right? [00:42:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because it was. Believed that [00:42:45] our physiology is too complicated and that might muddy the research and, and influence the [00:42:50] effect of a medication. And the interesting thing is it turns out it does. But [00:42:55] that's a nice thing to know. But that's what [00:42:56] Dr. Taz: we need to know [00:42:56] Dr. Ellen Vora: before we release a medication into the world where half the [00:43:00] population does in fact have this complicated physiology. [00:43:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: So, um, microdosing, [00:43:05] pharmaceuticals, I'm open to it. Yeah. I think that [00:43:07] Dr. Taz: I play with it some. [00:43:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, I think [00:43:10] that it's, uh, I think my training is speaking up and saying like, that wouldn't be a [00:43:15] therapeutic dose. So would it even be effective? Are you getting the downsides without the upsides? And I don't [00:43:20] know, but it's worth some [00:43:21] Dr. Taz: exploration, potentially like [00:43:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: some brave patients. [00:43:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:43:24] Dr. Taz: [00:43:25] Um, 'cause we have in practice we've microdosed for example, Metformin or Microdosed, uh, [00:43:30] oral minoxidil for women with hair loss, you know? Yeah. Or Microdosed, HRTI mean [00:43:35] some, you know, as I was talking to you, I was like, I wonder if there's an opportunity there. So while somebody's working [00:43:40] on the lifestyle pieces and some of these environmental pieces. [00:43:43] Dr. Taz: Is this the way to [00:43:45] support so it's easier to take it away? It's a really good idea. So we have less of that withdrawal effect. Just curious, [00:43:50] but you brought something up that has struck me, so I've gotta share Just a fun story. I love [00:43:55] documentaries. I love period pieces. So guilty pleasure when I'm by myself is, I [00:44:00] watched The Victoria, I don't know if you've seen that documentary on, on Queen Victoria. [00:44:03] Dr. Taz: It's not really a documentary, it's [00:44:05] actually a show. But there is a scene in that show where, [00:44:10] uh, she's in her power, she's reigning, you know, she was a, a very successful queen, you know. [00:44:15] However you feel about her reign, but her lady in waiting [00:44:20] was having an affair and her husband, because he [00:44:25] had more power in the court or whatever else, found out about it and called in [00:44:30] doctors to, who gave her a diagnosis of hysterical [00:44:35] uh uh, female hysteria and that she was hysterical and she [00:44:40] was taken and put in a mental asylum. [00:44:42] Dr. Taz: Right? That was the [00:44:45] nature of the treatment of women's health in that timeframe. [00:44:50] I think Fast forward today. Today you just mentioned the fact that women didn't enter clinical trials, [00:44:55] I think until 1970 and we really didn't enter in large volumes even up [00:45:00] until more, more recently, right? People are still advocating for funding this idea of the [00:45:05] hysterical anxious female. [00:45:07] Dr. Taz: What do you have to say to that? [00:45:10] [00:45:10] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, so. Let's put it this way. I mean, [00:45:15] that kind of, the way that was handled at that time. [00:45:18] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:45:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: The [00:45:20] outrage. Right. And I feel about that. [00:45:21] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:45:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, 'cause that's, but [00:45:22] Dr. Taz: it's not so different. That's a [00:45:25] fictionalized depiction. Not to call any anybody out, but [00:45:30] just think back to a very famous political family that did a frontal [00:45:35] lobotomy on one of their children and put them in a mental asylum. [00:45:37] Dr. Taz: Right. Yeah. So a female, right? Yeah. [00:45:40] So this idea of you had to manage the woman [00:45:45] or the emotions of women were, were [00:45:50] a sign of weakness. Right. Or a sign of illness or sign of disease is something I [00:45:55] feel like we're still not coming out from under. [00:45:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. So maybe three bullet points on [00:46:00] this one. Okay. How I think clearly. [00:46:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: So I think that, um.[00:46:05] [00:46:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: And like, just to acknowledge that the, the [00:46:10] patriarchal, abhorrent aspect of it all, where it's like, okay, this woman is not [00:46:15] like this sense of entitlement and ownership over her behavior and thinking, if she's not [00:46:20] doing what I want of her and staying loyal to this person, right. She's sick, then she's sick. [00:46:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: Which, no. Right. [00:46:25] But, um, and there's that, um, is it Krisna Murthy, we often attribute this quote Tim, of [00:46:30] like, um, to be unwell in a sick society. Mm-hmm. Like this actually can be a [00:46:35] sign of like, you're having the appropriate reaction. [00:46:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:46:37] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so I think women's [00:46:40] hysteria and outrage is often a very appropriate reaction to having a boot on our necks [00:46:45] and, and just bucking all of the ways that there is still systemic [00:46:50] sexism, misogyny, oppression, still very much constantly more so with [00:46:55] each intersecting layer of marginalization. [00:46:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:46:57] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, um, and [00:47:00] so. I think we still don't tolerate women's anger. [00:47:05] Women still have plenty of conditioning around. You should be smiling. Right. You should be selflessly [00:47:10] sacrificing. Right. And, and I think that I'll, I'll kind of tip my [00:47:15] hat towards two aspects of this that I think a lot about. One, let me park it for a [00:47:20] second. [00:47:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: I wanna talk about the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. But I will say, I think there is a false [00:47:25] anxiety piece. This is so uncomfortable to talk about, but um, you know, like [00:47:30] some of the treatments for hysteria was a vibrator. Yeah. Was an orgasm. Yeah. And I think that it's a false [00:47:35] mood that I rarely talk about, but I do think that. [00:47:38] Dr. Ellen Vora: Sexual [00:47:40] expression and satisfaction is actually does influence our mood. [00:47:43] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:47:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and our ability to [00:47:45] find our baseline and and to be centered. And I think we actually do need to acknowledge that, and [00:47:50] this is for men and women Right. And so [00:47:51] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:47:52] Dr. Ellen Vora: The [00:47:52] Dr. Taz: release of oxytocin. Right. Right. [00:47:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: Which [00:47:54] Dr. Taz: calms the [00:47:55] nervous [00:47:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: system [00:47:55] Dr. Taz: down. [00:47:55] Dr. Taz: Right. You know, [00:47:56] Dr. Ellen Vora: we shouldn't be lobotomizing anybody, and we shouldn't be locking [00:48:00] them away, but we probably do need a cultural conversation around, like, we don't get to suppress [00:48:05] our creative urges, we don't get to suppress our sexual urges. Like this needs to be [00:48:10] suppressed, or it starts to create stagnation and imbalance. [00:48:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:48:13] Dr. Ellen Vora: The luteal phase, [00:48:15] um, is, you know, the second half of the menstrual cycle and it's [00:48:20] towards the end when we are what we call PMSing. Right. And, um, that has a lot of [00:48:25] cultural baggage. Mm-hmm. We have been taught to think of ourselves as irritable, irrational, [00:48:30] bitchy, even. Yep. And. And I think that we can get [00:48:35] a, a exaggerated luteal phase. [00:48:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think we can have a lot of imbalance in those times. It's, [00:48:40] that can be a check engine light of how do we help balance this physiology So it's not so [00:48:45] extreme. But I also think that we're taught that that's the time we're irrational and mm-hmm. I actually think [00:48:50] that's the time that we take off the rows tinted glasses and we're seeing a little more clearly.[00:48:55] [00:48:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think it's a time when we have less tolerance for bs. I think it's a time when an [00:49:00] injustice that kind of fell off of our, like we're like Teflon to it in our [00:49:05] follicular phase. Suddenly we're like, no, that's not okay. [00:49:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:49:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: So I think that we meet at [00:49:10] least a reclamation of what feels important to us in our luteal phase, rather [00:49:15] than us dismissing that as irrational as a [00:49:17] Dr. Taz: problem. [00:49:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think we need to start to see, like, this is [00:49:20] when I'm. I have a truth serum and I'm seeing this and this is not okay. Mm. [00:49:25] And it's really the follicular phase when hormonally we're docile and [00:49:30] flirty and play well in the sandbox. Like that's actually when we have a distorted view of reality. [00:49:35] And it's the luteal phase when we are seeing all of the inconvenient truths. [00:49:38] Dr. Taz: Well, it's kind of like women that go [00:49:40] into menopause, right? They no longer have tolerance and like [00:49:45] bandwidth for what they used to put up with. 'cause they're no longer in this sort of like, oh, I need to procreate. [00:49:50] Oh, I need to domesticate because like my estrogen's on the rise. Right? [00:49:55] They're not doing that anymore. [00:49:56] Dr. Taz: So it's probably why, you know, what is it the [00:50:00] stereotype of the bitchy, menopausal woman is out there. [00:50:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. [00:50:03] Dr. Taz: You know, when you think about women [00:50:05] and our intuition and our powers, you know, and then you [00:50:10] frame anxiety as this like macro issue, right? Of an open antenna that [00:50:15] we started talking about in the beginning. [00:50:17] Dr. Taz: Are we just cut off? Like [00:50:20] what, what would you say about women and where women are headed? You [00:50:25] know, when it comes to hopefully a future matriarchy. [00:50:30] [00:50:30] Dr. Ellen Vora: Hopefully [00:50:30] Dr. Taz: I can be optimistic. [00:50:32] Dr. Ellen Vora: You have to be. Yeah. I think that, um, and a [00:50:35] matriarchy won't look like a patriarchy with women at the top. You know it. Yeah. [00:50:39] Dr. Ellen Vora: Because [00:50:39] Dr. Taz: we don't [00:50:40] fundamentally function that way. [00:50:41] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's not about power, it's, it's actually about Right. Um, taking [00:50:45] care. [00:50:45] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:50:45] Dr. Ellen Vora: Of everyone who needs help. So we go from like [00:50:49] Dr. Taz: the [00:50:50] hysterical female, right? [00:50:51] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:50:52] Dr. Taz: To the physiologically imbalanced [00:50:55] female. [00:50:55] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:50:55] Dr. Taz: Right. To the bitchy female. [00:50:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:50:58] Dr. Taz: Who then we put the stamp [00:51:00] of anxiety on it. [00:51:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:51:02] Dr. Taz: Where are we headed with women and their mental and emotional [00:51:05] health? [00:51:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that so many of us [00:51:10] women, we come out of the womb. We look around this world [00:51:15] and we understand the assignment, which is that what this world [00:51:20] values. Is a certain kind of very left hemispheric [00:51:25] rationality. Um, that's what we are taught to book, to believe [00:51:30] is intelligence. [00:51:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and I think what we do unconsciously [00:51:35] is we perform a certain side of ourselves that plays by those rules [00:51:40] that says, okay, I am, I like stem, I'm good at math, I am good at parallel [00:51:45] parking. I like, I'm, I'm not like the other girls. I am rational and chill [00:51:50] and not emotional. Not emotional. Yeah. Pm MS be damned. [00:51:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, and it's [00:51:55] basically, um, we're doing that to get positive [00:52:00] reinforcement from the world around us. We're doing that in order to have the [00:52:05] career that's remunerative. We, we've totally bought in that [00:52:10] left hemispheric rational, these types of things that, that has more [00:52:15] value and. In the process, we [00:52:20] unconsciously suppress this whole other side of ourselves. [00:52:23] Dr. Ellen Vora: The side that is [00:52:25] more the yin to the yang. Mm-hmm. It's the receptive moon energy, [00:52:30] non-doing it's the right hemisphere to the left hemisphere. It's the more [00:52:35] intuitive, holistic, seeing the big picture, [00:52:40] engaging and grappling with the ineffable, not just the easily answered, [00:52:43] Dr. Taz: yeah. [00:52:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: Straightforward [00:52:45] questions, but the gray area, being in the gray area where there isn't an easy answer to something. [00:52:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think all [00:52:50] of these aspects of us, there are birthright. We have them, but a lot of us suppressed it. [00:52:55] I think that where we're headed in the future, what I'm trying to call in with my second [00:53:00] book, which is called Season of the Witch. Mm-hmm. Is that I love it is time for a homecoming to that. It's [00:53:05] time for a reckoning with the fact that, oh, like I want women to have an aha moment of, [00:53:10] huh, that resonates. [00:53:11] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I didn't even realize I did that, but that sounds familiar. I think I did [00:53:15] suppress this intuitive witchy part of myself in order to survive. [00:53:20] And it is now safe to come out of the broom closet. It is [00:53:25] safe to. Claim this without apology, without a shame. [00:53:30] Without shame. To basically say I am intuitive. I do have a wide open antenna.[00:53:35] [00:53:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: I am a little witchy. I do pick up on things. I sense things. I feel things. And [00:53:40] I'm no longer going to make self-deprecating jokes about my interest in astrology. Mm-hmm. I'm [00:53:45] no longer going to pretend that this isn't a part of myself in order to [00:53:50] say something sanitized and acceptable in the boardroom. [00:53:54] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:53:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: That I'm gonna [00:53:55] start to own this part of myself and really let it be a compass as I [00:54:00] navigate the decisions in my life. [00:54:01] Dr. Taz: Are all women witches? [00:54:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think so, but I think [00:54:05] that, um, I think we're all at a different place on a spectrum of knowing that, [00:54:10] about ourselves and embracing that. And I think a lot of us are in conflict about this aspect of ourselves. [00:54:14] Dr. Taz: Well, what do [00:54:15] we do? Those of us that we might be witches? Well, what do we do when we [00:54:20] live still in a very. Patriarchal world, [00:54:25] we, you and I are in a, what's the best word to say it? I don't wanna say bro, [00:54:30] science, but like science flexing world, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, well, if it's not in a, [00:54:35] a study, then it's not real. [00:54:36] Dr. Taz: And you know, this experience that this particular [00:54:40] patient's having in an exam room is completely discounted. [00:54:42] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:54:43] Dr. Taz: Even though it's replicated, God knows how [00:54:45] many times, right? Yes. But it's still not quote unquote real, you know? In fact, I had. [00:54:50] I share it on social and I'm fine sharing it again. I literally had a [00:54:55] neurologist yell at me because I was advocating for the patient and he's like, well, I don't [00:55:00] understand what you guys are doing. [00:55:00] Dr. Taz: Like, what are you doing selling supplements? Like, you know, why do you do [00:55:05] it? What are you just a therapist? You know? Like just totally trashing the [00:55:10] field, trashing what we do. Right. And there's a lot of this like, you do this, therefore [00:55:15] it's not real and you're in it for some other reason. Oh, yeah. When it's like, [00:55:20] no, we are putting people forward on healing journeys and we're trying to take the [00:55:25] toolbox that we know that has been handed down over generations for thousands of [00:55:30] years from very gifted people and trying to help modernize it in [00:55:35] a way that is practical and realistic, but still within the, you know, rough framework of science. [00:55:39] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:55:40] Yeah. [00:55:40] Dr. Taz: But I'm gonna ask you as a fellow physician and probably a fellow witch, [00:55:45] is science everything, the way we understand science today. [00:55:49] Dr. Ellen Vora: So, [00:55:50] and I have this like snarky response to the neurologist of like, no, you're right. We should all just be [00:55:55] putting people on steroids. There you go. To utterly suppress their, their immune system. [00:55:58] Dr. Ellen Vora: And, um, we know how that [00:56:00] story ends. And so I think that it's you. [00:56:05] The training that we have, and the moment we're in in the world is to [00:56:10] bow down and worship at the altar of science. Right. And to say, a [00:56:15] randomized clinical control trial, that is the ultimate arbiter of truth. [00:56:19] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:56:19] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:56:20] And I'm not gonna fully poo poo it. [00:56:21] Dr. Ellen Vora: Like we love evidence. I, and we need some [00:56:23] Dr. Taz: standards [00:56:24] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:56:25] absolute too because, [00:56:25] Dr. Taz: so [00:56:26] Dr. Ellen Vora: this was an improvement over a bunch of dudes sitting around and arguing by assertion and [00:56:30] saying, you know, I feel like it's this so let's, it's that right. Let's do bloodletting, whatever it is. Right? And [00:56:35] so, um, yes, the, the spirit of the scientific method, testing our [00:56:40] hypotheses, changing our management based on what the data shows us, the spirit of [00:56:45] that is so good. [00:56:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:56:46] Dr. Ellen Vora: Putting aside the fact that it's been corrupted [00:56:50] systemically, right. With industry interest, putting that aside, right. That minor issue, [00:56:55] putting that aside, um, I don't think it can answer all questions that [00:57:00] matter to humanity. I also think that we are [00:57:05] too reliant on it. And, um, I am always going [00:57:10] to, I'm, I'm playing a long game with this 'cause I'm gonna keep trying to keep [00:57:15] buy-in because I understand the cultural moment we're right evidence-based. [00:57:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: So like my book, which is [00:57:20] basically trying to say, um, like there's this [00:57:25] whole other way of, of bringing. Truth and information [00:57:30] forward. That's not just the scientific method. There are like 400 scientific citations in this book, [00:57:35] right? Mm-hmm. So I'm still gonna point to the data, but I'm also trying to help us [00:57:40] see that that is not our only measure of truth. [00:57:43] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:57:43] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's not our only measure of [00:57:45] reality that is useful. And I think for women in particular, we've had the experience [00:57:50] of having our subjective anecdotal experience dismissed. I remember I went on birth control pill. Yeah. [00:57:55] And started crying every day and went into the prescriber and said, I, I, it's going well, [00:58:00] but I think I'm crying every day. [00:58:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: And she said, well, there's no evidence for that. You know, fill in sweetie. [00:58:04] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:58:04] Dr. Ellen Vora: [00:58:05] And, um, and now there is, now there is. Yeah. But I think we, we need [00:58:10] to not, um, suspend so much disbelief if something doesn't have [00:58:15] evidence. Like the absence of evidence is not evidence of evidence. It's not real, [00:58:17] Dr. Taz: not right. [00:58:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I think that not [00:58:20] everything that's real can be measured. [00:58:22] Dr. Taz: I love that answer. But what, [00:58:25] let's go back to how we started. Anxiety in [00:58:30] your sort of macro description is somebody being more connected to the [00:58:35] environment and to their, you know, immediate surroundings and even [00:58:40] global surroundings tapped into that collective consciousness, so to speak. Right. [00:58:45] Having that big, wide open antenna, maybe having a few physiological things that could be [00:58:50] corrected simultaneously. [00:58:53] Dr. Taz: And then we have women who already [00:58:55] have a big wide open antenna to begin with. And children, right. Children come in. Very [00:59:00] receptive for the most part. [00:59:01] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [00:59:02] Dr. Taz: You know, what would you tell [00:59:05] women and children to do? As they navigate through [00:59:10] life and decisions in life and roadblocks and challenges and even good things in life, [00:59:15] you know, as they understand that they have this intuitive power, that [00:59:20] they're feeling things that are real, that they're very visceral, you know, and some are more so than the [00:59:25] other. [00:59:25] Dr. Taz: Right. How do we, first of all, as parents, help navigate a child that might be [00:59:30] like that? Like my daughter, or as women? Kind of own that to a certain extent and [00:59:35] make it a superpower. Yeah. To use that word, rather than something that is seen as one of [00:59:40] our weaknesses. [00:59:40] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yes. Rough draft. Like I don't have these talking [00:59:45] points ready, but like, let's navigate this. [00:59:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. In real time together. Yeah. I [00:59:50] think that it, the reclamation, the empowerment of like someone saying, oh yeah, [00:59:55] actually I am intuitive. I'm even gonna call myself a witch. To claim that, I think [01:00:00] is part of how we relieve the suffering around this. [01:00:02] Dr. Taz: I love that. [01:00:03] Dr. Ellen Vora: Then [01:00:04] Dr. Taz: I think that's like step [01:00:05] one. [01:00:05] Dr. Ellen Vora: It's big because life is challenging. [01:00:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [01:00:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: But the [01:00:10] suffering is usually created by our resistance to our circumstances. [01:00:14] Dr. Taz: Yes. [01:00:15] And by our unwillingness to listen to that intuitive voice [01:00:20] [01:00:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: and to flow with the way the current is directing us through our [01:00:25] lives. Hmm. So all of that resistance, like when we're not floating downstream. When we're not, [01:00:30] um. [01:00:31] Dr. Ellen Vora: Shoring up all parts of ourselves and we're [01:00:35] fragmented. I think this is creating a lot of unnecessary suffering. So part of what we wanna do is claim it that [01:00:40] we're witches. Okay. Part of what we wanna do is with that new worldview, that this [01:00:45] is perhaps, uh, that human existence is vastly beyond our [01:00:50] comprehension. [01:00:50] Dr. Ellen Vora: I even call that like a belief in magic. I say that. Mm-hmm. A little tongue in cheek. Mm-hmm. A little [01:00:55] like completely serious. Yeah. A belief in magic I think helps a lot because [01:01:00] then when circumstances arise that we don't want, that, we wouldn't have asked for that we don't like, [01:01:05] we have this whole different framing for making sense of it. [01:01:08] Dr. Ellen Vora: We start to see how [01:01:10] things are sometimes in service of our growth, how there's sometimes divine timing and [01:01:15] guidance in things that we even. Don't like, but I find that I suffer the most when I [01:01:20] wanna rail against reality and say, no, I don't agree with this outcome. I [01:01:25] don't want this to go this way. And of course, that's natural. [01:01:28] Dr. Ellen Vora: We feel that with any [01:01:30] loss, with any suffering, with pain. But the more I can start to see it [01:01:35] as this is how it's unfolding and can I [01:01:40] surrender into and trust this unfolding and can I even possibly make meaning [01:01:45] from the unfolding? I find that that helps a lot. [01:01:47] Dr. Taz: Oh, I love that. [01:01:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: And where this really. [01:01:50] Comes into play is with loss. [01:01:54] Dr. Ellen Vora: And [01:01:55] that's a major part of what I write about in Season of the Witch, is that it was through [01:02:00] losing my mom and then later my dad that forced my hand around, what's your [01:02:05] worldview girl? Mm-hmm. Like you were raised in this kind of atheist, New York City altar, like [01:02:10] worship at the altar of science. Mm-hmm. [01:02:11] Dr. Ellen Vora: Skepticism was a virtue, but then I got into yoga [01:02:15] and I had a kind of diluted spiritual worldview mm-hmm. Of like, eh, you know? [01:02:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [01:02:18] Dr. Ellen Vora: But then it, it kind [01:02:20] of forced me to put my penny down and make a call and say, do [01:02:25] I believe that my mom is gone? That loss is absolute. [01:02:30] Or do I have an ongoing connection to her in some form? [01:02:34] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [01:02:35] [01:02:35] Dr. Ellen Vora: And I chose, or originally it was just a choice. It was a choice to say I wanna [01:02:40] have some ongoing connection to her. And over time. [01:02:45] What I've experienced is that it's not even a choice. It's a knowing. It's an embodied [01:02:50] experience of that, and that has enriched my life, and it has certainly [01:02:55] eased the pain of grief. [01:02:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [01:02:56] Dr. Ellen Vora: But it has actually blown open my worldview where [01:03:00] things are in so much more technicolor and it gives my life more meaning and [01:03:05] purpose. It it, for me, it's been, [01:03:10] it has, it is been the hardest thing I've ever gone through, but it's actually [01:03:15] been, in certain ways, the most important change in how I understand what this human experience is. [01:03:19] Dr. Taz: [01:03:20] Wow. So profound. I have to ask you this question selfishly, even after, after [01:03:25] that, like, we as mothers, [01:03:26] Dr. Ellen Vora: yeah. [01:03:28] Dr. Taz: I mean, it's one thing for us to accept [01:03:30] the fact that we're intuitive and it's a power and we need to claim it. [01:03:35] How do we manage our children? How do we manage those children that, that have that [01:03:40] how? [01:03:40] Dr. Taz: How can we discern that this is a child that is built this way, [01:03:45] wired this way, maybe more so than the other one, and to prevent them [01:03:50] from a path of like needless suffering. Right? Yeah. What are [01:03:55] some of the screenings that, or teachings that we as mothers kid instill? [01:03:59] Dr. Ellen Vora: Oh [01:04:00] man. I mean, parenthood is always so humbling and good at kicking in your [01:04:05] teeth when you think you've got, yeah, no [01:04:06] Dr. Taz: kidding. [01:04:06] Dr. Ellen Vora: Like I wish I could say it's the hardest thing ever normalized it. You know, [01:04:10] I've normalized witch is and belief in magic so much that my daughter has reacted by going the other [01:04:15] direction. Yeah, I'm sure. [01:04:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [01:04:16] Dr. Ellen Vora: She's like, calls herself a physicist. Yeah. That's cool. I love that. Yeah. We love girls in [01:04:20] stem, right? [01:04:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: We still do. Yep. Witch is in stem, but I think that, um. They're always just gonna [01:04:25] be on their own journey. And can we stay really flexible and nimble [01:04:30] and sort of sit beside them with it without too much weighing in? Um, [01:04:35] 'cause I, I think sometimes the way we can show up for someone is to normalize and, [01:04:40] and support, but it sometimes it's actually to, to like, kind of [01:04:45] like lock ourselves down a little bit. [01:04:47] Dr. Ellen Vora: Say too much. Yeah. And let them take [01:04:50] their ride. [01:04:50] Dr. Taz: Can we identify a wide open antenna kid? [01:04:53] Dr. Ellen Vora: I think that, I mean [01:04:55] kids are so wide open, but Yeah. And I think it often looks like things that [01:05:00] we do a lot of correction around and shame around. I think kids that are suffering a lot, I [01:05:05] think kids that are very dysregulated. [01:05:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Um, I think kids that are having like bad [01:05:10] behaviors mm-hmm. I think those behaviors show us an an unmet need and I think that unmet need [01:05:15] has a lot to do with what comes with so much sensitivity. So I think a wide open antenna [01:05:20] gets a kid to be very prone to overstimulation and then it shows up as bad [01:05:25] behaviors and we correct the behavior and I think we're missing the root. [01:05:27] Dr. Taz: The root cause. [01:05:29] Dr. Ellen Vora: [01:05:30] Wow. [01:05:30] Dr. Taz: Wow, wow, wow. This is incredible. I love this. So you have a book, the Anatomy [01:05:35] of Anxiety that's already out. [01:05:36] Dr. Ellen Vora: Mm-hmm. [01:05:37] Dr. Taz: Your next book is coming Season of the Witch. I can't wait [01:05:40] to bring you back on so we can get into that in a deeper way. Where can people [01:05:45] find you and connect with you? [01:05:46] Dr. Ellen Vora: The best place is Instagram. [01:05:47] Dr. Ellen Vora: I'm at Ellen Vra, md [01:05:50] and I pop on there every once in a while and just without [01:05:55] much editing, talk to camera about whatever is coming through in the field. [01:05:58] Dr. Taz: I love that. And then my [01:06:00] final question is, what makes you whole? [01:06:02] Dr. Ellen Vora: I love this question and I'm [01:06:05] rather than having like a really good answer, I'm gonna have the really honest answer. [01:06:07] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [01:06:08] Dr. Taz: I want the honest answer. [01:06:09] Dr. Ellen Vora: I'm [01:06:10] where I am right now in my spiritual journey, is what makes me whole [01:06:15] is to, to recognize that I, for decades suppressed a whole half of [01:06:20] myself. And the more I bring that part of me back home [01:06:25] and kind of say, tell me what, you know, even when I'm inclined to [01:06:30] feel a little shame or to wanna apologize for those parts of myself, it's, it's to shore up [01:06:35] those pieces and say like, this is all part of the organism. [01:06:38] Dr. Ellen Vora: And so it's the right hemisphere [01:06:40] insights, it's the gray area. Ineffable, woowoo parts of me that when I [01:06:45] bring that back into the conversation, I have learned that that's what makes me [01:06:50] feel whole. [01:06:51] Dr. Taz: So we could spend another hour talking about this, but I think you and I are on very [01:06:55] similar journeys. I think that all successful, like patriarchal [01:07:00] successful women today are on this similar journey that they have checked the [01:07:05] boxes in terms of education and credentialing and career success [01:07:10] and monetary success, and built businesses and done all this stuff, but [01:07:15] are coming to the realization at some point, whether it's shortly after school, mid-career, post [01:07:20] career, whenever, that if we do not embrace that side of [01:07:25] us, there is deep unhappiness and deep unrest and a big part of [01:07:30] being a woman is having. [01:07:33] Dr. Taz: And I think a lot of us [01:07:35] needed the credentialing for self. Empowerment. Mm-hmm. Right. [01:07:40] So nobody could take advantage of us. Mm-hmm. At the end of the day. Right. That's a lot of what drove my mom to force us. She's like, I don't want [01:07:45] anyone to be in this position, you know? But while we now have [01:07:50] self-determination, we've also had some self-sacrifice. [01:07:52] Dr. Taz: Yeah. And so I think the next way for women, I [01:07:55] hope, is that we can marry self-determination with self-fulfillment [01:08:00] in a way that's powerful and beautiful, and then can transmit that to our children so that [01:08:05] they know the model to follow. Have I done that? No. You know, [01:08:10] for my kids. Right. Will I do that in the future? [01:08:12] Dr. Taz: Yes. You know? But I hope that's at least the [01:08:15] gift that you and I can give the generations that are under us. For sure. You know? That's right. So, but [01:08:20] anyhow. [01:08:20] Dr. Ellen Vora: There's a Joseph Campbell quote came up in a book we read in a book club together. Yes, [01:08:24] Dr. Taz: yes, [01:08:25] yes, yes. [01:08:25] Dr. Ellen Vora: Maureen Murdock's Heroin's journey. Yep. But the, the Joseph Campbell quote is, [01:08:30] um, we've gotten to the top of the ladder and realized it was against the wrong wall. [01:08:33] Dr. Taz: Right. [01:08:34] Dr. Ellen Vora: So maybe [01:08:35] part of how we support our children is let them climb the ladder that they feel drawn to, [01:08:40] but when they realized that it was against the wrong wall, can say, okay, let's regroup, let's pivot, let's. [01:08:45] Scoot the ladder over here. [01:08:46] Dr. Taz: Nimbleness and flexibility that you talk about. [01:08:48] Dr. Ellen Vora: Yeah. [01:08:49] Dr. Taz: Oh my [01:08:50] gosh, this has been amazing. [01:08:51] Dr. Taz: Thank you for being here. Thank you. And joining me. I adore you [01:08:55] and love you as you know, and for everybody who wants to follow Ellen, follow along and her first book is [01:09:00] incredible. We've read through that one her. I can't wait for the next one, but we'll definitely be bringing [01:09:05] you back. So thank you all for watching and listening. [01:09:07] Dr. Taz: Thank you, Ellen for being here today. [01:09:09] Dr. Ellen Vora: My feeling is [01:09:10] mutual. [01:09:10] Dr. Taz: Ah, and I'll see you guys next time before you go take a second to [01:09:15] reflect on what stood out for you today. Then if you can leave a quick review [01:09:20] wherever you're listening, it really helps other people discover Whole Plus and start their [01:09:25] own healing journey. [01:09:26] Dr. Taz: And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Dr. Taz md. I [01:09:30] love hearing how these episodes are supporting you.