Latest / Libido Lounge / Why Secure Lovers Thrive (and Others Struggle in Silence) With Aubrey Aust

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Why Secure Lovers Thrive (and Others Struggle in Silence) With Aubrey Aust · Libido Lounge

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  One of the most understudied aspects and under discussed truths in relational psychology is
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  that our needs are not static.
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  Aubrey As is a researcher, writer, and master's candidate at NYU where she studies relational
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  psychology and philosophy.
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  Her work explores how we build emotional safety, experience intimacy, and reconnect with
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  desire.
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  Drawing on attachment theory, somatic psychology, and the ethics of care, Aubrey
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  focuses on the concept of erotic intelligence, the emotional and embodied wisdom that helps us
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  feel alive in our relationships and in our own skin.
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  Instead of asking, why don't I feel the same way I used to?
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  Start to get curious and say, what is my body asking for now?
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  This is something I want to invite you into.
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  And with that comes so much excitement and potential and newness, and that is where desire
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  and eroticism thrive.
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  Start getting into the practice of asking your body, what do you need today?
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  And then listen.
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  that direct link.
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  So wanttowantit.com, the name of my book.
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  Now back to our show.
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  Hey, everybody.
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  Welcome back to another episode of the Libido Lounge.
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  We have such a cool conversation today with Aubrey Ost coming up here.
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  We're gonna talk a little bit about somatic intelligence.
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  We're gonna talk about micro traumas, how they get stored in our body.
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  We're gonna talk about one of my favorite topics, which I think is where people get lost
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  so oftentimes in their desire, which is the fact that desires, that intimacy, that passion,
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  that our needs around this actually change over time, and one of the things I strongly see in
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  so many couples is we get stuck in these kind of scripts where we're like, well, this is how
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  we're passionate together, or this is how we express desire, and this is how we make love.
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  And then part of the, say, the loss of all of these things often happens because we don't
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  update our model within ourselves and our relationships as we find that we grow and
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  change over time.
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  So we're gonna talk about that.
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  We're gonna talk about some about attachment patterns and how these can be safe or unsafe or
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  healthy or unhealthy in your relationship, and then make sure you do join for part two.
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  You can get part two by joining our club down in the show notes in part two.
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  We're gonna go into things like how do we cultivate more safety in relationships, and
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  what do we do when we become disconnected and almost disembodied when we are in our
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  passionate moment.
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  So all of that and more, so excited to be here with you today.
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  Thank you so much for having me.
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  It's a pleasure.
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  It's a pleasure to have you.
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  So let's just let's start here.
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  Like, let's so why do you feel, from a standpoint of desire, desire change changing
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  over time, why do you feel this happens?
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  Great question.
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  Honestly, I feel like it's one of the most understudied aspects and under discussed truths
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  in relational psychology is that our needs are not static.
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  They inherently shift.
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  Right?
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  They shift as we grow, as we age, as we change careers, as we love, go through really any life
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  transition.
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  So in early adulthood, many of us might be seeking novelty, affirmation, connection as a
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  means of self discovery.
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  That's all fantastic.
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  But over time, that longing can turn more towards depth or attunement or safety and
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  recognition.
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  And the trouble is our culture doesn't often teach us how to necessarily adapt to these
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  shifts.
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  So instead, we face almost this pathologization where it's especially for women, where if
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  you're not feeling as sexual as you used to be or simply if your needs change, it's easy to
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  internalize that as a sign that something is wrong.
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  But more often, it's simply a context change that happened for you when your your desire is
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  simply responding accordingly.
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  So I found that in the research that I do, staying connected to that desire and these
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  transitions means cultivating more curiosity over critique because this is completely
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  normal.
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  It happens within any life transition and throughout this span.
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  So instead of asking, why don't I feel the same way I used to, start to get curious and say,
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  what is my body asking for now?
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  So it's a completely normal response to the natural transitions that have that one has over
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  the course of their life.
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  So okay.
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  So let's take a step back and maybe let's define even desire a little bit because if I'm
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  hearing you correctly, one of the things I'm hearing here is that and correct me if I'm
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  wrong, wanna make sure I'm clear, is that as relationships, say, grow and change over time,
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  are you saying that, like, there's there's a like, we need to normalize almost a change in,
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  like, the passion desire for more of this, like like, deepening presence type of desire, or are
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  we changing the way we're defining it?
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  Can you say a little bit more about that?
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  Because that doesn't feel clear to me.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yeah.
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  So desire and even how we internalize it can shift over time.
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  And you very soundly spoke to the distinction within that is the experience of desire and
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  even wants and needs can shift.
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  So you can frame of a desire itself as an unmet need, something that is not being addressed.
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  And those can radically transform throughout the course of a lifetime based on where you are
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  contextually, relationally, a ton of factors.
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  So if it's tapping into what exactly is desire, that definition can be personal and can shift
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  throughout someone's lifetime.
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  And so by staying connected to it, it's allowing yourself to evolve and letting your
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  needs evolve with you, and that's gonna be an individual and ever changing definition.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  I appreciate that and totally agree on that.
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  The other thing I wanna just highlight that I see over and over, I should say, I hear over
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  and over again with all the different people in the the sex and the intimacy space is that if I
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  were to say, like, the number one word that I hear used across the board from everybody, it's
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  curiosity.
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  And that, I think, is, like, one of the, you know, most fundamental things that I see that
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  we're just you know, we lose so oftentimes in our long term relationship.
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  So when it comes to, like, say, the utility of this around so, okay.
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  Like, so you set the stage.
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  This is desire.
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  Desire actually definition changes over time.
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  We need to be curious to this change.
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  We need to, you know, deepen our ability to be present to what's happening in our body around
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  this.
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  How else, though, do do people begin to understand the change in their needs or
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  preferences as we're defining it?
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  Like like, where do we is it, like, the questions people are asking themselves, or how
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  do you guide in your work people actually understand, oh, this is how I know my desire
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  today is different than my desire in the past.
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  Right.
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  So important, and it can be incredibly difficult to tap into.
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  Right?
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  Half the time, we can't exactly name what we need.
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  And I think something that I research is called affect theory, what you're feeling in your body
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  before you can even logically parse out that emotion.
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  Because sometimes, you know when you get that feeling that something is just off, but you
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  can't put your finger on it, or you feel like a tightening in your chest, or something coming
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  over to you physically that maybe logically you haven't even processed yet, but that feeling is
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  still valid.
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  What is that?
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  Sometimes we can't even name it, and that makes it difficult to kind of parse through, but the
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  body contains so much knowledge.
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  And so a lot of what I do, I frame it as what is erotic intelligence, and that's your
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  capacity to stay in relationship with your own desire.
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  It's something we are all constantly working through, and it can happen across time, across
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  change, and across contradiction.
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  It's not just about arousal or performance.
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  It's about being emotionally and somatically attuned to what kind of lights you up.
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  And this is not a one stop shop.
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  It's not I have taken this course, and I have thus gained my erotic intelligence.
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  Right?
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  This is a process that we are all going through and cultivating over the course of a lifetime.
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  So it's about recognizing the signals that your body sends.
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  Even when you can't name them, still acknowledging that those signals are valid, and
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  acknowledging it even when they don't match cultural expectations or expectations of what's
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  going on amongst your friends or what you think you need to be feeling.
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  So it becomes less about validation and more about self recognition.
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  So one of the things that comes up sometimes in tantric studies as well as in just energetic
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  studies is the differentiation between feelings and emotions.
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  So I'm wondering, and and if this is not your area, we can totally move on because I'm just
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  throwing you a curveball here, but I'm wondering if can, like, speak to this a little
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  bit because what I'm hearing you say in this idea of, oh, how am I going to cultivate more
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  of my needs and, you know, preferences understand them?
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  How am I gonna be able to understand them?
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  It sounds like what you're saying, especially with your somatic history, is like we have to
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  come back to those feelings in the body, the tightness in the chest, that thing that happens
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  in the gut.
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  Right?
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  Mhmm.
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  Those types of sensations, it sounds like what you're talking about.
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  So where do you feel?
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  And and, you know, like I said, if this is not really your your world, we can move on.
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  But if so, like, where do you feel like like emotions come in, and how do you differentiate,
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  hey, Wow.
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  I'm feeling emotional about this, and so this is that information versus, wow.
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  My my maybe there's not a strong emotion, but my gut is kind of, you know, moving into knots,
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  or my heart is feeling like it's fluttering excitement.
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  Like, how are you differentiating, like, the feelings versus emotions in context of
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  understanding what needs and desires?
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  Fantastic question, because this is the line that I'm actually towing with my work is talk
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  therapy is amazing and necessary and helps us parse through those emotions.
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  And I think there is a current need, especially in where we are in popular psychology and where
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  mental health is currently in the larger population, to be more in tune with the
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  feelings and somatics and a greater integration of the current practices we have now.
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  And so tuning into the body and what it's telling us, I think, needs to be there there
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  has to be a greater focus there, especially as our erotic intelligence develops and as our
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  relationship, our personal relationship with desire continues to deepen.
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  And so at the end of the day, this sounds like an incredibly simple answer, but it's taking
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  time to stop and pause and reflect and actually feel what's coming up.
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  And then recognizing, woah, what are the emotions I have associated with that?
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  And simply taking those breaks, which as I said sounds so incredibly oversimplistic, but in the
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  fast paced world that we are in where rest is now becoming sadly a luxury from time to time,
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  it's a necessity to kind of take that break and get back in tune with where we are and what we
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  actually need.
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  Yeah.
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  I think so much of the time we have feelings, and we are really taught to ignore them.
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  Yeah.
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  And I think so much of the time we're taught to ignore them or like push through like you're
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  saying, like, rush, rush, rush, do do do, you have that feeling, well, you don't need to
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  attend to it, and you know, certainly I think there is like, the there is the need, I think,
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  in life for, like, healthy suppression, meaning, like, oh, if I'm, like, feeling this
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  feeling and I'm in the middle of a major meeting, then it's like, okay, well, now I
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  can't address this, but the idea of healthy suppression in my mind is, like, k, feeling, I
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  hear you, I see you.
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  Mhmm.
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  This is when we're gonna, you know, like, safely go in and explore you later today in the
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  bath or tomorrow, you know, morning before our workday, and still allowing that space for
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  going there.
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  So it's not like real suppression.
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  It's just like, hey, we're gonna we're gonna put a pause on this and come back to it here in
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  the next, you know, little while when it's a healthier time.
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  Open up the feelings box.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Beautiful.
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  Well, I wanna talk about attachment patterns because we have talked about attachment a
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  little bit on this podcast before, so, you know, listeners, make sure you go back and
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  listen to some of these other episodes.
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  But I think it really is such an important topic to come back to because I just think it
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  informs so much.
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  And so when we're talking about this overarching thing around erotic intelligence,
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  knowing our desires, you know, being able to work with our changing desires over time, where
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  do attachment styles come into play with all that?
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  How does that influence this kind of bigger picture of, you know, eroticism?
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  Yeah.
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  There's so much work being done in the attachment theory space right now, specifically
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  pertaining to how it contributes to our feelings of desire and intimate relationships.
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  Of course, attachment patterns in early childhood have been largely studied and are
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  still hugely influential.
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  Your immediate caregivers early on in life have a major role in how we experience attachment
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  later on in life.
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  However, something that I think needs more attention is attachment patterns are not 100%
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  fixed.
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  If you grow up and you begin to have anxious or avoidant attachment tendencies, that is
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  something that can be changed over time based on your relational environment and the
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  relationships you cultivate.
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  So if you are someone who tends to lean more anxious, but get into a relationship with a
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  secure partner, might you be able to move more towards that secure style of attachment over
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  time.
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  So they are malleable, which I think gives a lot of hope and excitement because so often we
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  talk about being, you know, fixed in these boxes of attachment patterns.
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  And, yeah, they're fantastic to recognize patterns in ourselves over time.
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  That's wonderful data.
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  But you're not stuck there, and it's something that we can we are all growing in relationally
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  as we move throughout our lives.
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  Now how exactly does this contribute to desire?
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  It absolutely contributes to how we are able to show up in intimacy, how we register intimate
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  experiences, how our bodies either open up or shut down based on the partners, the
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  situations, how safe you feel in that relationship.
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  Now let's get back to our episode.
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  And so it does ultimately come down to relational safety, and if you feel comfortable
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  opening up expressing yourself, expressing your needs and desires, and feeling like that person
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  will not shut you down, judge you, leave you in that moment, but instead it's a safe space to
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  discuss what you want that can largely influence your attachment patterns, and how you
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  show up in those moments are influenced by your attachment patterns.
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  So do you recommend that people that are in say that if somebody knows that they are, say, more
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  of a anxious or avoid an attachment style, for example, do you recommend that they purposely
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  try to find a secure attachment partner?
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  And, like, if that's the case, how does somebody, like, begin to, like, like, do we put
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  that on our dating profiles, or, like, how do we begin to to really sort that out?
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  That might be the next hinge category.
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  What is your attachment style?
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  Actually, that would be a great question prompt for anyone who's looking for dating profile.
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  Agreed.
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  Right?
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  I mean, ideally, we are all moving towards a secure attachment style.
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  Right?
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  However, we live in the real world, and that is not the case for everyone.
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  And that's that's part of our relational work, and the relational fabric that we are all
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  weaving is moving towards secure, and that involves a combination of our interpersonal
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  relationships and the personal work that we are all doing on our own.
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  So it's about recognizing those tendencies within ourselves and then figuring out what is
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  that work that I need to put in to move towards that secure attachment style.
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  And it absolutely, intimate relationships are so huge in influencing how we experience and
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  express attachment, but a great way to work on your own personal attachment patterns is to do
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  so in relationships in which you already feel safe and cared for and loved.
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  And that doesn't have to be a romantic partnership.
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  We can absolutely express this with family, with friends with whom that we feel that
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  resonance, And we feel like you are there for me.
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  You are showing up for me.
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  I feel safe in this connection, and I feel safe expressing myself.
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  And starting to name those needs or those patterns that come up of saying, hey, I tend to
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  draw away in conflict repeatedly.
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  Or saying, hey, when you don't immediately text me back, that brings up feelings within me, and
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  can we talk about this?
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  And by starting to name that and bring the relational truth into existence with people
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  with whom we already feel safe, that can help move us more towards that secure attachment
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  style.
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  Yeah.
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  One of the things I talk about in my second book is name it, don't shame it.
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  Yeah.
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  Right?
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  Love that, and I think it's such an important component of this.
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  So in what you're saying around, like, like naming, and it sounds like you're, you know,
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  talking about, like, you know, an anxious attachment style where somebody's maybe not
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  showing up a certain way and maybe they're more avoided or they're not responding, and then
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  there's an internal, like, just, you know, intensity and anxiety that is, you know,
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  happening there.
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  So can we apply that then so you're you know, that sounds like, okay.
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  Well, here's a great starting point is, say, in a relationship with somebody that is maybe not
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  romantic.
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  So what about, say, somebody that is in a relationship and they wanna start asking for
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  more of their needs?
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  Maybe they want to have, you know, more foreplay before they actually engage sex, or
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  maybe they want to just try a new thing and they have, like, a new need in how they're
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  going to express intimately and sexually.
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  Is there a certain way from a standpoint of relationship for an anxious person, and then
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  let's do the same thing for, say, an avoidant person, that you would recommend, say, starting
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  a conversation with their partner, their primary partner?
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  Yeah, for sure.
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  Honestly, same response for both styles is have the conversation not immediately in a moment of
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  intimacy.
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  This is something where you already feel like you're in a safe space.
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  It's conversational, not bringing things up when emotions are at their emotional peak.
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  Right?
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  Because when we are in an arousal state, we are not thinking clearly.
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  That is not when you're making your best or not your best choices, but your most logical
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  choices where you can clearly articulate and speak your needs.
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  So in those moments where, hey, it might be over a casual cup of coffee or something that
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  feels like a pretty low stakes environment of just naming don't they name it, don't shame it.
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  Right?
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  I love that line so much.
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  And saying, I have this desire that I want to express to you.
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  This is something that I'm curious about.
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  As you said before, that word curiosity can hold so much power because it's not saying this
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  is not something you're giving me.
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  It's saying this is something I want to invite you into.
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  And with that comes so much excitement and potential and newness, and that is where desire
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  and eroticism thrive.
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  Yeah.
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  Amazing.
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  I appreciate that.
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  There's the simplicity of like, oh, this is actually no matter what your attachment style
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  is, if somebody's like, well, I'm not really sure where I'm at, these same principles can
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  apply for you kind of wherever you're at on the spectrum of of attachment variants.
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  And I'm gonna ask you kind of probably our final question for today around authenticity,
• 20:57
  but also just wanna remind our listeners here that a really fun way you can start bringing in
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  Okay, so my next question is, let's talk about authenticity, because I think this is a really
• 21:51
  important sting, and and we can get probably super meta on this topic, right?
• 21:57
  But so many times, I feel like in our relationships, whether we're talking about our
• 22:03
  sexual relationships or not, our primary partner, we could be saying sexual, we could be
• 22:08
  saying emotional intimacy, whatever it is.
• 22:11
  I think so much of the time we get into these relationships based upon the idea of what it
• 22:18
  should be.
• 22:19
  Right?
• 22:20
  And, you know, I think it was kind of like the the Hollywood white picket fence, you know,
• 22:24
  thing for a while.
• 22:25
  I think that model has not been as pushed, But now it's just kind of this model of, like,
• 22:31
  everybody has to do it all all the time and run themselves ragged and, like, you know, it's
• 22:35
  like the perfect woman syndrome and the perfect man syndrome, and everybody just has to operate
• 22:39
  in this way, which is just not realistic.
• 22:43
  So what do you feel from a standpoint of authenticity?
• 22:47
  Like, what does this mean, and, like, how does showing up more authentically in oneself, like,
• 22:52
  what what does that have to do with the relationship as far as what you see in in
• 22:56
  intimacy?
• 22:57
  Intimacy?
• 22:57
  Right.
• 22:57
  As you said, we can get down a whole philosophical rabbit hole on this.
• 23:01
  I do so much on the psychology and philosophy of self and how this idea of the self is a
• 23:07
  performance.
• 23:07
  We are constantly tailoring ourselves, our relationships to what we think we should be,
• 23:12
  and the societal scripts that come along with that, how we are expected to show up.
• 23:17
  And so one small step to connect with that authentic self, you can do all the journaling,
• 23:23
  read all the self help books, do that.
• 23:24
  They're both fantastic options.
• 23:26
  I also encourage to start a nondemanding relationship with your own body.
• 23:31
  This doesn't even have to be through sex or self pleasure, but just through attention.
• 23:36
  And start getting into the practice of asking your body, what do you need today?
• 23:41
  And then listen.
• 23:42
  And this can be something as simple as gentle movement.
• 23:45
  Maybe it wants to stretch.
• 23:46
  Maybe it wants to be still.
• 23:48
  Maybe that day you need to be held or nourished or you want to cry that day.
• 23:53
  What does it look like to honor that impulse?
• 23:56
  And starting to tune in with the body, even doing an act as simple as placing a hand on the
• 24:00
  heart and one on the belly, and just sending that signal to your nervous system saying,
• 24:05
  you're safe here.
• 24:06
  I'm listening to you.
• 24:08
  And starting that as a practice, that's beginning to build that trust again with
• 24:12
  yourself, and through that you're able to show up more authentically.
• 24:16
  Yeah, amazing.
• 24:17
  I think there's so much to be said on that.
• 24:20
  One thing I'll share is that I, as an athlete, have my regimen right around, is what I do on
• 24:26
  this day, this is my long run day, and this is when I do my leg workout, and, you know,
• 24:30
  etcetera, etcetera.
• 24:31
  And one of the things I've been practicing lately is is actually tuning in, like you're
• 24:36
  saying, around, like, does this feel like this would be the right thing today?
• 24:40
  And it's like, yeah.
• 24:41
  Like, technically, this is, like, the easiest day of the week for it to be my long run day,
• 24:45
  but maybe I didn't sleep as well the night before.
• 24:47
  Maybe my body's exhausted for some reason, and really tuning in a little bit more to,
• 24:52
  actually, today would be better to just take a long walk and be more restful.
• 24:55
  And and, you know, I think those small little things that we do around, hey.
• 25:01
  We can have our, you know, agenda, but just, like, flexible, you know, have some, like,
• 25:05
  flexibility with this as being attuned to the body's needs, I think, is so so important.
• 25:11
  For sure.
• 25:12
  Absolutely.
• 25:13
  So important to tune in.
• 25:14
  So we're gonna talk everybody in part two about safety.
• 25:18
  Like I said, we're gonna talk about why women in particular disconnect.
• 25:23
  Men can obviously disconnect too, but we do see this oftentimes higher with intimacy with
• 25:27
  women.
• 25:28
  And it's almost like this disembodied scenario that happens where it's like you're not feeling
• 25:33
  the sensations in your body, and you're so, you know, it's one thing to be like, oh, you know,
• 25:38
  the grocery list comes into your head and your mind wanders and comes back.
• 25:41
  It's a very different thing to be like, I can't be present in my body during this scenario.
• 25:47
  So we're gonna talk about that and so much more in part two, so look for that in the show
• 25:51
  notes.
• 25:52
  I do know that you put out amazing monthly content for your readers.
• 25:58
  So just tell us a little bit about, like, how people stay in touch with you and, you know,
• 26:02
  kind of the value you bring with your email list, because I know that's a great way for
• 26:06
  people to still get amazing content like this and more from you.
• 26:10
  For sure.
• 26:10
  Easiest way to stay in touch is to sign up to my mailing list called Open Loops.
• 26:14
  You can also follow me on Instagram at aubrey underscore underscore aus to keep up with where
• 26:19
  I am in my research.
• 26:20
  Amazing.
• 26:21
  Well, thank you so much for being here.
• 26:23
  Thank you everybody for listening.
• 26:25
  This is another episode of the lounge.
• 26:27
  See you all next time.
• 26:28
  Ciao for now.
• 26:32
  Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge.
• 26:34
  Please don't keep me a secret.
• 26:35
  Please share this with your friends.
• 26:37
  You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, as well as how to work with me at mylibidodoc.com.