Latest / The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook / Living Unapologetically with Tracy DeTomsai: Empowering Women & Supporting Survivors

Transcript

Living Unapologetically with Tracy DeTomsai: Empowering Women & Supporting Survivors · The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook

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  So often, and I and I say this to people a lot too and it and
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  it shocks them, but we talk about false reporting and we
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  need to protect our men from false being falsely accused.
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  On a college campus, a man is statistically more likely to be
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  sexually assaulted than they are to be falsely accused.
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  And yet we're not talking about men being sexually assaulted.
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  We're more worried about protecting them from being
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  falsely accused when they probably won't be than they are
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  than we are from making sure that they have the resources and
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  understanding necessary if they are being assaulted.
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  Hello, welcome to the Field podcast Today I'm your host,
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  Melissa Crook. I've got a new friend here with
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  me today from our good friends at podmatch.
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  I am so lucky to be connected with them.
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  I have met some of the most incredible women with just the
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  most inspiring, resourceful, insightful stories.
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  And I've got another one of those here with me today with
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  Tracy D Tomasi. Tracy describes herself as
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  transparent, honest and trauma informed.
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  Tracy, welcome to the Field podcast.
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  Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
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  I'm excited to have you. You've got some I, I, I'm just
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  excited to Share your story and your resources.
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  It's so like all the topics we discuss on here, but such an
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  important topic and that we're going to get into as we go along
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  and unfold your story today. So let's kick it off with
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  prioritizing self-care in your like life, like life and what
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  that looks like for you. You work in an area that has a
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  lot of emotional work in it, you know, and a lot of of women's
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  stories that are hard and trauma informed.
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  And we'll get into what that is as we go through this discussion
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  today. So I would imagine this has to
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  be something that you really pay special attention to, to make
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  sure you're taking care of yourself well.
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  That as we know, we don't get the script from more little
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  girls that prioritizing our self-care should is, should be
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  something we do right away. We have to learn that and
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  unlearn some unhealthy narratives around it.
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  It's not selfish, but that's not necessarily what we were told.
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  So talk to me about your journey with self-care.
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  Oof, it's been a long one. I think, you know, I've been a
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  social worker for almost 25 years and, and working in the
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  fields of trauma. And back in the day, it was like
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  push through everything and, and if you needed help, it was seen
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  as a weakness or you weren't as good at your job or whatever.
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  And the older I've gotten, the more I just don't believe that.
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  I think that we know more. I think that the field has
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  changed. I have also changed the older
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  I've gotten to be like, I can't continue to do that because
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  that's not helping me, but it's certainly not helping anybody
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  I'm working with or my staff or anybody around me.
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  And so it is definitely been a journey for a lot of the reasons
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  that you've said of like, I don't think as women, we are
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  taught how to prioritize ourselves.
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  And it's give, give, give. And I think the number one thing
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  I like, I also kind of don't always like the term self-care
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  because I think that it, it's not always stuff that we have to
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  do for ourselves. It's what we have to do for each
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  other sometimes too, especially like in the, in the context of
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  like the workplace, I can tell my staff to do self-care all the
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  time, but do I make time for that?
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  And do I prioritize that as a part of work?
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  Or do I expect them to do it? Take a bubble bath and have a
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  glass of wine night, right. And so I think the number one
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  thing I do for self-care is therapy.
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  You know, like that it prioritizing my mental health is
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  a huge, huge piece of that. And you know, Speaking of that,
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  like I had therapy this morning and what did we talk about?
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  Feeling selfish, feeling guilt, feeling like how do you take
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  care of other people? Because that is definitely
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  something that I struggle with because I am in this field and I
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  do really love to help people. But if I, it's the, it's the
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  metaphor of putting your own oxygen mask on before you put on
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  somebody else's. And I really hold that to be
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  true. I also, you know, I mean, I also
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  think that it's making time for fun when like prioritizing joy
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  and prioritizing fun. Like sometimes it's like, well,
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  I can't have fun because the world is burning down, but you
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  have to have fun. And they're, you know, in the
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  last few months, I have seen this, this kind of phrasing on
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  TikTok and Instagram again of during the HIV crisis in the
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  80s, they talked about in the morning, we buried our friends
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  and in the afternoon we protested.
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  And then the evening we danced because dancing was part of the
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  revolution. Dancing was part of the
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  resistance. And I think there's somebody
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  else that's famously said that quote is dancing joy is part of
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  the resistance or something that I'm.
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  And it is. Somebody in the civil rights
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  movement that I'm. Off of feel like Audra Lord or
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  somebody like maybe said it. And yeah, like, and I think that
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  that is really key because so many points in my life, I was
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  like, well, I just have to focus on this and I cannot feel joy
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  because there's so much awfulness in the world.
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  But really prioritizing whatever makes you feel joy, whether
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  that's going to stand up comedy, whether that's going for a walk,
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  you know, taking that bubble bath, having the glass of wine,
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  whatever it is, or not having that glass of wine.
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  You know, I don't want to promote substances all the time
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  either, you know, But use it for joy, not for.
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  Masking, you know, Yeah, Yeah. I think you may have brought up
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  such a great point. It's interesting because we had
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  this discussion on one of our women's panels a couple of weeks
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  ago about the fact that we sometimes feel like guilty if we
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  have joyful times or take time to have fun and realizing that
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  no, that's part of our healthcare.
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  That's part of our self-care. It's part of filling our cup and
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  keeping us going. And I've shared with this on a
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  couple different times already on this platform this year.
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  I really struggled the first three months of the year in my
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  normal habits not being enough. I was still feeling like up here
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  with the anxiety I was experiencing and I had to find
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  additional ways to support myself and figure out what those
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  were. And I figured out it was those
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  things and spaces and being with people that brought me joy, that
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  were fun, that were refreshing. And we just, I just kept trying
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  things until my husband and I, one weekend we went and spent a
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  weekend on the water with his sister and wife and we went out
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  and went whale watching and just, we're out and enjoyed all
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  of the beauty of the nature and the joy and laughing and
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  enjoying good food and time and weekend with people we loved.
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  And, and we, you know, we're in the mountains on Memorial Day
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  weekend and then we got to be by the ocean this last weekend.
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  And, you know, just remembering those things that add to and
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  allow you to e-mail. I'm a huge Dodgers fan.
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  We I, so we went and watched the Dodgers and when they hosted New
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  York and that brought me great joy.
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  And, you know, and and so, yeah, not like realizing that's part
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  of my help that helps my serotonin levels, my dopamine
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  levels low as my cortisol, you know, settles my system to feel
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  those things. So don't feel guilty about that.
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  Know that that is an important component.
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  And I love that resistance piece because I think when we feel
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  like we're fighting fires on all fronts, it's really easy to just
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  feel like there's no time, but you're not going to have the
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  energy to fight the fire and the things and systems that you're
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  fighting against. Don't they want to rob you of
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  your joy? So don't absolutely let.
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  So don't let those systems do that, you know, don't give them
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  that power. And so I think that's such so
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  I'm so glad you brought up the joy piece of that.
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  I think it's such an important component in this work.
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  All right. And that really goes nicely into
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  taking care of our emotional health, our mental health, our
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  physical health, our spiritual health.
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  They're all pieces and parts of that.
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  You mentioned therapy is part of your self-care, the joy piece.
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  Those feed our our mental, emotional, physical, spiritual
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  health pieces of it and they're all connected.
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  If we're not feeding all those pieces, it's going to show up
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  problematic somewhere else within that.
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  Talk to me about your journey with that.
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  I would imagine for me, I experienced things very
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  somatically and so, and it's hard for me.
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  I had to learn how to not being someone for many years who felt
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  obligated to be taking care of everyone and everything around
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  me. I was very I would take on other
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  people's emotions, whatever was happening in the room, instead
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  of being able to show up for it but not embody it.
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  I would imagine for what you do, that's got to be challenging.
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  So talk to me about that. Yeah, it can definitely be
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  challenging. I'm not one to feel stuff in my
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  body, which I think is helpful. Sure, I can like hold it and put
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  it somewhere else, but I am an empath, so I do feel what other
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  people is are feeling. And so I do feel sometimes that
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  weight of the world because I see everybody's experiences and
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  I see a lot of that. And so it's really heavy to
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  hold, but I also can put it aside and know it's not mine.
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  Again, I've gotten a lot better at that over the years because
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  it, it just goes back into I can hold that for people and I get
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  to experience joy, even if they can't right now, you know, like
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  I don't have to be tied to their trauma, their trauma and their
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  journey is their own. And I don't have to feel guilty
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  if I'm feeling joy and their experience trauma because we're
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  not the same. Now, if I'm throwing it in their
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  face, that's a whole different thing.
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  But that's not the case. You know, just being able to
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  experience joy does not, just does not, it's not going to help
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  anybody else if I'm not experiencing joy, you know?
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  And yeah, I think that like learning what's yours and
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  learning what's not yours and creating those boundaries of how
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  do you be there for somebody without enabling, without losing
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  yourself, without doing too much.
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  And that's challenging. And it takes a lot of self
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  reflection, takes a lot of therapy.
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  It takes a lot of training. I know because I work in gender
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  based violence. A lot of people come into this
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  in a lot of different ways. I've been doing it for 25 years
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  and you can watch the burnout happen.
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  I've watched it throughout my career.
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  I have felt it and it's, it's prioritizing those things that
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  we've talked about in order to, to not feel it.
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  Because when you first get into this, everybody's like, Oh my
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  goodness, did you know this, this and this?
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  And like, yeah, we've been doing that for 20 years.
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  We've been saying that for 20 years.
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  Great that you're finally catching on.
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  Like, I'm not going to judge anybody whenever they like, come
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  into the, you know, come into the space, like absolutely.
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  But it's probably been there before you started it.
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  It was there before I started it.
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  I, you know, I am not the trailblazer.
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  I am more of a microphone, you know, and I'm more, more of that
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  person to have the bullhorn that amplifies the message rather
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  than being the trailblazer that figures out the message.
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  You know and and both are needed.
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  Absolutely, absolutely. You mentioned boundaries there,
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  so let's talk about healthy boundaries.
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  Talk to me about your journey with that and when you realize
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  the importance of those for you. Oh, it depends on what kind
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  you're talking about, but there's so many.
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  I remember when I was an intern and, and I was working at a
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  nonprofit that where my job was to help adult survivors of
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  childhood sexual abuse. And my supervisor and I was 22
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  years old. And I, my supervisor did a whole
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  lesson for the interns about the difference between enabling and
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  empowering. And it is stuck with me for 20
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  some years. And I still talk about that of
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  what's the difference? I cannot rescue people like
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  rescuing is not helpful. It's not helpful for me.
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  It's not helpful for them. I am not allowing them to
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  experience what they need to experience and learn from it.
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  If I am rescuing and I am enabling people and it is a
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  challenge, it is such a challenge.
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  It is probably like, again, it's one of the things I talked about
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  therapy this morning was how do you not enable people,
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  especially when you are a helper and you want to do these things
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  and people look to you to do these things, Sure.
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  But those boundaries are so important and it's really
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  establishing what is best for me, asking myself that question,
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  what is best for me? And then starting there and then
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  realizing what are what, what are the different types of
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  boundaries of like do? Is that one flexible or is that
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  not flexible? When is it flexible?
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  When is it not flexible and learning how to establish
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  boundaries of like I can't work. Boundaries and requests are two
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  different things. I can say don't say that to me,
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  but I can't control what you say to me.
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  I have to. The boundary is how do I respond
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  to that? And do I keep you in my life or
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  not? Yeah.
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  And that's good. A challenging lesson of I can't
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  demand what other people do. It's only about how I react and
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  what I accept and not accept. And part of that is just telling
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  you I don't accept it isn't the end of the boundary.
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  Yeah, Yeah, you got to enforce that.
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  And I'm so glad you talked about that difference between enabling
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  and empowering, because so many times we think we're helping
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  someone when we're enabling them, but we're not empowering
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  them to utilize their own tools, utilize their own resources.
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  And so many times I think when we continue to enable, we have
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  to ask ourselves, this might be about me and what makes me feel
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  in control or needed that because enabling and
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  codependency run hand in hand with each other.
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  And so looking at those versus the empowering where you want
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  them to feel resourced and able to take those steps on their
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  own, that they get to a space where they don't require that
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  input from you in the same way because they're able to move
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  forward. And so I really think that's
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  such an important distinction and what a powerful thing, an
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  important thing for you to learn as you were entering this space,
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  man. I will say I was taught it then.
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  I don't know if I learned it then.
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  Yeah. Oh, that's a good.
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  That's a good distinction too. Yeah, it took me a long.
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  Time to fully learn it. Yes, there and that.
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  I've got another great distinction.
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  You could. Somebody can teach you
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  something, but you can lead a horse to water.
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  You can't make them drink, I mean.
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  Exactly. So you have to then upon
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  yourself, like, OK, what's this going to look like for me in my
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  life? Where am I going to have?
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  And this is not just related to work.
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  This is related to time. Instead of time yourself in your
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  calendar relationships, you engage with what you say yes and
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  no to. I mean, there's so many things
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  that it encompasses. I can't bring more to the table
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  than somebody else, you know, whether that is one of my staff,
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  whether that's a significant other, whether that's a friend,
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  if I'm working harder for the other person on the other
• 16:43
  person's goals, again, whether that's a client, a Co worker or
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  a partner, I can't work harder than them.
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  Yeah, because you can't lead a horse to water or you can lead a
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  horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
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  So like that, that's the whole thing is like, and there's got
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  to be a point where that's their choice and you're taking away
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  their choices by not doing that and you're taking away their own
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  lessons by not doing it. And you're just prolonging that.
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  And again, I, you know, I can sound very wise.
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  It doesn't mean I always follow that, right?
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  It doesn't, it definitely doesn't mean that I always
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  follow that. And I struggle with it a lot
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  with like the guilt and the expectations and the like, what
• 17:23
  if I would have just done this? Maybe they wouldn't have done
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  that. Well, that's OK though.
• 17:28
  Yeah, You know, yeah, Yeah. That I can't want this more than
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  you do. Like it's really got to be a
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  personal decision. And again, agency and choices
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  are such an important part of that.
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  Knowing what's our responsibility, you know, versus
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  their responsibility. I mean, it's, there's such
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  important distinction. Thank you so much.
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  So good. So many good things there.
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  All right. And how we can support ourselves
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  and other women in living unapologetically.
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  For me, this is really the crux of what you do, especially with
• 18:05
  Kalisto. So I want you to speak to that,
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  but I also want you to talk about getting to that point of
• 18:13
  your own journey with showing up unapologetically, which then I,
• 18:18
  you know, for me, I really, it's like we got to learn how to show
• 18:20
  up unapologetically for ourselves before we can really
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  do it effectively in supporting others in that.
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  And then what the choices we make out of that so many times
• 18:31
  become the resources that we end up offering and becoming for
• 18:36
  people. But it's comes from that really
• 18:38
  personal place to before we can really be effective with it on a
• 18:42
  broader scale. So so talk to me about that
• 18:44
  unapologetic journey for you. Yeah.
• 18:48
  I think the first part of really having an unapologetic journey
• 18:51
  is knowing who you are. And I think again, if that's a
• 18:54
  journey, showing up unapologetically, I think can be
• 18:58
  really misused by people. And I, again, I've worked on
• 19:01
  gender based violence, so I see how abusers can use that
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  language. Like I'm just unapologetically
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  myself. Well, that doesn't, you still
• 19:08
  need to learn how to apologize if you do bad behaviors, right?
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  And so I don't want to say that like if my behavior is hurting
• 19:15
  somebody else and I'm living unapologetically, you have to
• 19:18
  know who you are and that you're coming from the right space, not
• 19:21
  only for yourself, but others around you.
• 19:25
  And so that looks differently for what does it look like with
• 19:28
  your partner or your kids or somebody on the street or Co or,
• 19:32
  you know, like that can look a lot of different ways.
• 19:34
  But I think that not apologizing for taking up space, I think so
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  often as women, we just apologize for taking up space
• 19:43
  and we don't need to. And I know years ago I learned
• 19:47
  like that women say the word just as a way to apologize for
• 19:52
  taking up space. I just did this.
• 19:54
  I just wanted to check in. I just, And so I have done a
• 19:58
  really conscious thing in the last five to 10 years, probably
• 20:01
  10 years to anytime I write an e-mail or a text and I say just,
• 20:05
  I delete it. It is not always easy.
• 20:08
  And it's, and even though I've been doing it for a long time, I
• 20:10
  still am not in the habit of not doing it because I I also know,
• 20:15
  I just want to, you know, like be.
• 20:20
  Be accommodating and there's a point to that, but there's also
• 20:25
  I can show up with who I am and that's a boundary.
• 20:29
  I don't have to apologize for my boundaries if they are
• 20:32
  protecting me now, if I also have to accept the, the the
• 20:37
  responsibility of if somebody else doesn't like my boundaries,
• 20:40
  they can leave too. Like they have a choice and who
• 20:44
  I am and I don't have to apologize for them leaving
• 20:47
  because I'm going to be me. But I also have to accept that
• 20:52
  as a consequence, as a risk, as whatever you want to call that.
• 20:57
  But it does require a lot of self-awareness and who you are
• 21:01
  as a person to really know how to be unapologetically yourself
• 21:05
  and how to change that too and evolve.
• 21:07
  I am not the same person I was when I was 25, you know, and I
• 21:13
  don't want to be that same person.
• 21:14
  Right, either. But I definitely care less about
• 21:19
  what people think, but not in a bad way, you know, like I I
• 21:23
  don't need people's judgements if I know I'm coming from the
• 21:27
  right place. And not everybody has to like me
• 21:29
  and not everybody has to agree with me.
• 21:31
  But if I'm wrong, I also am going to acknowledge that I'm
• 21:34
  wrong. Yeah, I think that's a beautiful
• 21:36
  balance of like, listen, not living in people pleasing mode,
• 21:39
  not trying to live out of someone else's expectations and
• 21:42
  satisfy those. And also Emma Lerner.
• 21:45
  And we'll evolve and grow and we'll earn, learn and move
• 21:48
  forward and be like, you know, I did the best I could do with
• 21:52
  what I knew then, but I know differently now.
• 21:54
  So I'm going to move forward with that.
• 21:55
  I think that's a great distinction.
• 21:58
  I want to go back to the apologizing piece because
• 22:00
  working in gender based violence, so many times those
• 22:04
  who have been abused, violated, hurt, are afraid to come forward
• 22:10
  because of the lack of safe spaces that exist, because of
• 22:15
  the RE assaulting that happens so many times in the way they're
• 22:21
  treated. The questions they have to go
• 22:24
  through things people are asking them, the gaslighting, you know,
• 22:29
  just re traumatizing over and over again.
• 22:33
  And and it's like, wait a minute, why?
• 22:37
  Why is this happening? Why are we doing this to these
• 22:41
  poor people you and so through this and what how you've seen
• 22:46
  the impacts you've created Kalisto.
• 22:50
  And I want you to talk about you deciding to do that and and let
• 22:55
  people know what it does because I think this is really important
• 22:59
  resource for those that have been impacted in this way to
• 23:03
  know about. Yeah, At Calista, we make this
• 23:07
  revolutionary technology. And so we were founded by Jess
• 23:11
  Ladd, who was a survivor of sexual assault on a college
• 23:14
  campus. And she wanted to solve it
• 23:17
  because reporting for her was, like you said, just as almost as
• 23:23
  traumatizing as the as the assault itself.
• 23:26
  And So what we do now is that we have built this technology and
• 23:31
  it's end to end encrypted, which what that means is that it's
• 23:34
  encrypted before any of the information is is stored on our
• 23:38
  servers. So it's very secure.
• 23:40
  And what we do is we help survivors find out if their
• 23:43
  perpetrator has harmed somebody else.
• 23:45
  So often when I've done this work, people say, well, I would
• 23:49
  have reported had had I I known that I wasn't the only one, if I
• 23:55
  could report with somebody else, I would report if it was to stop
• 23:59
  him from doing this again. And one assault is too many,
• 24:02
  right? But on college campuses, 90% of
• 24:06
  sexual assaults are committed by serial perpetrators who on
• 24:09
  average offend 6 times while in college.
• 24:12
  And so if we can connect to survivors and accountability can
• 24:15
  happen after two assaults versus getting to that six, we reduce
• 24:19
  college sexual assault by 59%. And so how we do that is that if
• 24:23
  a the driver wants to find out if their perpetrators harm
• 24:25
  somebody else and they have a.edu e-mail address, they have
• 24:30
  free access to our matching system.
• 24:32
  And our matching system, you go in there and you put in the
• 24:34
  state where the assault occurred.
• 24:37
  And that's because state laws vary on sexual assault.
• 24:39
  The definitions of sexual assault vary by state.
• 24:42
  And then you put in the unique identifier of your perpetrator.
• 24:45
  So the perpetrators social media handles, e-mail address, phone
• 24:48
  number, there's about 12 different categories and you put
• 24:50
  in as many as you know. And that's what we match on.
• 24:53
  So in the background, our matching system is running all
• 24:56
  the time. And so if one person puts in an
• 24:59
  Instagram handle of their perpetrator and another person
• 25:02
  puts in that same Instagram handle, there's a match.
• 25:05
  They're not notified right away. It's not like a, it's not like a
• 25:09
  Tinder profile or a dating app where you're, it's, it's a
• 25:11
  match. What happens is that we're
• 25:13
  notified, but we're, we can't just search through a database.
• 25:16
  It's the, the information for about the survivor and the
• 25:20
  perpetrator still remain encrypted even to us.
• 25:23
  We then assign that case to a confidential legal advocate who
• 25:29
  is free for the survivors, and that person reaches out to the
• 25:32
  survivor separately to say there's been a match, did you
• 25:35
  want to chat? The survivor has a choice to
• 25:37
  make that because we put the survivors in control and the
• 25:41
  survivor says, yes, I want to chat or no, I don't.
• 25:43
  It's up to them if they want to chat.
• 25:45
  They'll meet with that legal option counselor who again, is
• 25:48
  protected under confidentiality, and they'll say what happened to
• 25:51
  them and what what questions they have and what are their
• 25:55
  options? What is a criminal option based
• 25:57
  on what happens, what's a civil option?
• 25:58
  What's a title nine option? What's a mental health option?
• 26:01
  Whatever questions that the survivor wants to know because
• 26:05
  most people don't understand our criminal justice or any of our
• 26:07
  justice systems at all. And so then if once they get
• 26:11
  that information and they feel that they want to know the other
• 26:16
  person and they want the other person to know them, the legal
• 26:18
  action counselor that advocate will will connect the survivors
• 26:22
  if there's consent to do so. So again, that's another choice
• 26:25
  that the survivor can make whenever they want to make.
• 26:28
  And then we put them in contact for them to pursue healing and
• 26:31
  justice, whatever that means for the survivor.
• 26:33
  We don't want to define it for them because we know that looks
• 26:35
  different for everybody. Some people are going to want
• 26:37
  restorative justice. Some people are going to want
• 26:39
  jail time. Some people are going to want
• 26:42
  nothing. And so we don't investigate the
• 26:45
  crime. We don't report to police.
• 26:48
  Title 9 HR or any kind of authorities, we really leave
• 26:52
  that in the hands of survivors. What we're doing is to really
• 26:55
  connect those survivors for them to know that they're not alone,
• 26:58
  for them to know what their options are and for them to have
• 27:02
  a sense of camaraderie with somebody else who's experienced
• 27:05
  this by the same exact person. And then they get empowered to
• 27:08
  do whatever it is that they want to do because right, you know,
• 27:12
  before Callisto, it's newspapers that are doing this, it's
• 27:15
  journalists. And so if you look at the Me Too
• 27:17
  movement, Harvey Weinstein happened because of journalists.
• 27:22
  Larry Nasser, who's the doctor for the USA Gymnastics, happened
• 27:25
  because of journalists and because one survivor decided to
• 27:28
  use her name, Rachel Denhollander.
• 27:30
  And that changed everything. And then they found hundreds of
• 27:34
  women and girls who've been assaulted by him when they.
• 27:37
  There have been numerous reports, both by police or both
• 27:40
  to police, both to Title 9. And they were never connected or
• 27:44
  told that he had been reported in any other kind of way.
• 27:47
  But when they got collective and they had collective action, it
• 27:50
  changed, One, what they were willing to do and, two, how
• 27:53
  successful they were at it to get him behind bars.
• 27:56
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:58
  Yeah, that was that was a huge movement in showing what's
• 28:02
  possible when voices are brought together and also exposed
• 28:09
  universities who are not taking action on these things and
• 28:13
  what's possible when you go down that road.
• 28:16
  So I think it's a really Yeah, I what I love about what you do
• 28:22
  too, is you give. Them.
• 28:23
  Their power. Back, you give them their
• 28:25
  choices back. And that's such a critical
• 28:28
  component when you've had this experience and when the systems
• 28:33
  traditionally that you report you don't like it is it is.
• 28:38
  So we have just not gotten it right in our culture, in our
• 28:45
  society, in our systems. And this gives them a different
• 28:51
  experience and an ability to make choices for themselves and
• 28:55
  to know they're not alone. So I wanted to give time to
• 28:58
  that. I think this is so important.
• 29:00
  I myself work with groups on college campuses.
• 29:04
  I'm letting them know this exists because I think it's just
• 29:09
  such an important tool for this is just so much more common than
• 29:17
  we talk about and and we talk about it and we hear about it,
• 29:21
  but it's like this is real. And also just a reminder to the
• 29:25
  students. You got to be careful and and
• 29:29
  and also know that sometimes when you are careful, things
• 29:33
  still happen. So not believing yourself, not
• 29:36
  you know and not that's what makes me so angry about the
• 29:39
  systems is they. Yeah.
• 29:42
  So often, you know, when we talk about sexual assault prevention,
• 29:45
  we talk about how to cover your drink at a party, how not to go
• 29:50
  home with somebody and how not to get too drunk.
• 29:52
  How would all these things? That's just reducing individual
• 29:55
  risk. It's not actually preventing
• 29:57
  sexual assault because that perpetrator is just going to
• 30:00
  find somebody else. And so it the the risk is still
• 30:04
  there. And the only person who is
• 30:06
  responsible for sexual assault is the perpetrator.
• 30:08
  It doesn't matter if you drink too much because I can get drunk
• 30:11
  at a party 100 times, I can get wasted at a party 100 times and
• 30:15
  not be assaulted and one time that there is a perpetrator
• 30:19
  there that wants to assault me. They're going to.
• 30:22
  So it's not the drinking that's the problem.
• 30:25
  Does it increase my risk? Maybe.
• 30:27
  But why? And it's because, you know,
• 30:28
  perpetrators look for somebody to take advantage of.
• 30:31
  We need to start putting that onus on the perpetrator.
• 30:34
  And we do that best by finding the serial perpetrators because
• 30:37
  they're causing 90% of the assaults.
• 30:40
  And that is where it where it lies.
• 30:42
  And they have used the culture to manipulate survivors, to
• 30:47
  manipulate each other, to manipulate the system.
• 30:50
  And so, you know, going back to what you said about that, you
• 30:53
  know, just the system in general, whether it's colleges,
• 30:57
  whether it's any type of institution where you've got a
• 31:00
  power hierarchy, the systems don't work.
• 31:03
  And I say often about how we think the criminal justice
• 31:08
  system is like an episode of Law and Order SVU where you've got
• 31:12
  really good cops, really good detectives fighting for you.
• 31:15
  They've got all the resources in the world.
• 31:18
  They've got somebody sitting behind there with a computer and
• 31:21
  15 screens that all of the systems connect and they can
• 31:24
  find perpetrators and who they did and all the things that's
• 31:27
  not true. One, law enforcement's just not
• 31:29
  set up that way. And the best law enforcement age
• 31:32
  agents don't have those resources at their hands even if
• 31:35
  they want to solve your their case.
• 31:37
  They're not trained in trauma informed practices most of the
• 31:40
  time. And so a lot of the times you
• 31:43
  report to police and it doesn't matter.
• 31:44
  You're never going to eat. When we tell survivors to press
• 31:47
  charges, survivors can't press charges.
• 31:50
  Survivors can report an assault and the DA, the District
• 31:53
  Attorney decides whether or not to prosecute.
• 31:56
  That is not the decision of the survivor, whether or not they've
• 31:59
  reported. And so I think that there's such
• 32:02
  a misunderstanding of the justice system and 99% of
• 32:06
  perpetrators get away with their crimes, 99%.
• 32:11
  And so it's not working. It's just it's not working.
• 32:15
  And there's institutional betrayal at place.
• 32:17
  And again, going back to like, being unapologetic, how does
• 32:22
  that change somebody's ability to be unapologetic when they're
• 32:26
  meant to? They're meant to.
• 32:27
  If they disclose to a parent, all of a sudden the parents got
• 32:34
  feelings and now I have to apologize for what my
• 32:36
  perpetrator did to me. And now I've got to apologize to
• 32:40
  my mom or dad for making them upset.
• 32:43
  Yeah, right. And so there's this, like you're
• 32:46
  constantly apologizing for what something like, what happened to
• 32:50
  you? Yeah, I you don't have to.
• 32:52
  Apologize for what I wore. I have to apologize for how much
• 32:55
  I drank. And like, let's cut those lists
• 32:57
  out. Like, sure.
• 32:58
  And that will help reduce risk. It's not preventing.
• 33:02
  Sexual assault, no, it's the perpetrators that you know, So
• 33:06
  it, it's again, it's going upstream.
• 33:09
  You know, how do, how do people get to the point where they
• 33:12
  decide that this is a decision they're going to make to do this
• 33:17
  to people? I mean, there's so many, what's
• 33:19
  happening to them when they're younger?
• 33:21
  What were they born into? What, what were they surrounded
• 33:24
  with? What, what was lacking?
• 33:26
  What happened to them? Because many times those that
• 33:29
  are abused become abusers. I mean, there's so many other
• 33:32
  layers to the story before they get to the people that they are
• 33:39
  hurting and. I think that's, you know, that's
• 33:42
  one of the reasons that I really love about close so because when
• 33:44
  I started my career as a social worker, I was a therapist for
• 33:47
  adolescent sex offenders. And so yes, I heard, I heard the
• 33:53
  stories first hand from the perpetrators for years, for 5-5,
• 33:57
  about five years, I did that work.
• 33:59
  And granted, that's been a long time ago and they were very
• 34:04
  manipulative and they were also very charismatic, right?
• 34:08
  They got away with with so much of it too.
• 34:11
  But accountability, like yes, they, they had experienced
• 34:15
  trauma on their own right, which caused a lot of them to
• 34:18
  perpetrate. They still needed accountability
• 34:22
  to accept what they did was wrong, to understand what had
• 34:25
  happened to them was wrong, and to stop to stop offending in the
• 34:31
  future. And people ask me a lot of times
• 34:33
  what why did I do that work? Well, if you can stop a
• 34:38
  perpetrator from reoffending, one that you've known is already
• 34:40
  reoffended, that's the best place to start.
• 34:43
  Because you're going to prevent stuff before before it even
• 34:46
  happens. Because so much of our
• 34:47
  prevention right now is how not to get assaulted.
• 34:51
  But you still assume assault is going to happen or like how to
• 34:54
  protect yourself. Like self-defense isn't
• 34:58
  prevention. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a
• 35:00
  reaction. It's a reaction to actually
• 35:03
  being attempted to be assaulted. You know, it's, it's still like
• 35:08
  prevention is preventing anything from happening.
• 35:12
  And the only person that can do that is the person that has the
• 35:15
  possibility to assault. Wow, such an interesting take
• 35:19
  and I think also really helpful for you to have that information
• 35:25
  and understanding of how a lot of these minds work and what's
• 35:32
  where they're coming from so you know how to address it on the
• 35:35
  other side. I think that's So what me and
• 35:38
  you and I talked about this, but I want you to share what made
• 35:41
  you decide to step into this place where Colisto is?
• 35:45
  You've been, you know, doing this work and social work for,
• 35:49
  you know, over 20 years. What made you decide that this
• 35:52
  was a route you wanted to go down?
• 35:57
  Callisto's the solution. It it, it, it, it really is, in
• 36:02
  my opinion. Again, having worked on both the
• 36:04
  survivor and the perpetrator side and knowing that the
• 36:07
  numbers have not changed in the last 20 some years and really
• 36:14
  thinking about how can we address this issue that both
• 36:17
  help survivors and stops perpetrators and holds
• 36:22
  perpetrators accountable, which is the piece that we forget all
• 36:25
  the time. We're either doing either one or
• 36:27
  the other. We're not doing both.
• 36:28
  And I really think that if enough people know about
• 36:31
  Colisto, we will really have the power to really stop this and
• 36:35
  actually prevent it and change the numbers where, you know, one
• 36:38
  in four females on college campuses are assaulted, one in
• 36:42
  five trans and non binary students are assaulted and one
• 36:46
  in 15 males are assaulted on college campuses.
• 36:48
  It's two and a half million students every year assaulted on
• 36:51
  college campuses and we're not doing enough.
• 36:55
  The bystander intervention hasn't changed those stats in in
• 36:58
  20 years that I've been doing this work.
• 37:00
  And so I fully believe in this as a solution because it's not a
• 37:04
  stand alone solution. You can report and use it.
• 37:08
  You cannot report and use it. You can have a criminal case and
• 37:12
  use it. You cannot have a criminal case
• 37:13
  and use it. And I think that we can still
• 37:16
  just identify where that's at, which eventually when we get
• 37:19
  enough data and we get enough research, we're going to be able
• 37:22
  to create policies that understands this.
• 37:25
  Yeah, yeah. Having that, that's such a big
• 37:28
  part of policies, like we've, you know, telling stories and
• 37:32
  coupling that with data, like you can't have just one or the
• 37:36
  other because otherwise you don't get policies, you don't
• 37:40
  get systems to move. It's that that combination of
• 37:43
  those things that really moves things.
• 37:47
  Thank you so much for sharing that.
• 37:48
  I just will I want it, I want our listeners to have a relief
• 37:51
  from understanding of how intentional this is and, and and
• 37:57
  in the possibilities within it and getting the word out about
• 38:01
  it, because it is way past time to move the numbers in the right
• 38:07
  direction on this and it. So, you know, it's just we
• 38:11
  shouldn't have to. There's so many ways that women
• 38:15
  have to think about their safety and and have levels of fear all
• 38:19
  the time. Let's do something about this
• 38:22
  and eliminate and not just I mean, there are there are men
• 38:24
  that happens to you, but larger numbers are, are women in many
• 38:28
  of these cases. And and let's let's give them
• 38:33
  another resource and some of that, you know, it's tricky
• 38:35
  because a lot of it it's under reported across the board
• 38:38
  because of the lack of safety and all the stigmas that go with
• 38:42
  it. So let then having these
• 38:44
  encrypted safe places they can go and know they're protected,
• 38:49
  whoever they are is such an important piece.
• 38:53
  And I think back to 2017 when me too went viral because it
• 38:59
  started by Toronto Burke in 2006, but the hashtag went viral
• 39:03
  in 2017. And I remember people tagging
• 39:06
  me. And I've been working in the
• 39:07
  field again for about 17 years at that point.
• 39:09
  So people were tagging me and saying, like, did you see this?
• 39:13
  Did you see this? And I was like, I mean, yeah,
• 39:15
  but I don't forget what the big deal is.
• 39:18
  So everybody's saying me too, like, yeah, I and.
• 39:20
  And if I looked at the people on my Facebook page, it was like,
• 39:24
  yeah, I know all of your stories.
• 39:26
  You've told me all of those. I don't, I I was really confused
• 39:29
  for the first day or two. And then I realized, oh, I'm in
• 39:33
  this field. I see all of this.
• 39:36
  Yeah, this is not new to me. I know all the stories because
• 39:40
  I'm the person that says that. It's been told so many times.
• 39:43
  I've never said this out loud before, but this person
• 39:47
  assaulted me, that person to assault to me, I'm a survivor,
• 39:49
  whatever the case is. And I realized that especially
• 39:51
  when it comes to sexual violence, it's so secretive.
• 39:54
  You do not have to share. And, and there's such shame
• 39:59
  about sharing so many times because of the way that
• 40:02
  survivors are treated when they do disclose, whether or not they
• 40:05
  report. And that I realized that not
• 40:09
  everybody else saw it. Yeah, every like so that was a
• 40:12
  moment that everybody got to see what I had known for years and
• 40:16
  why I continued to do the work. Yeah, they got us.
• 40:19
  And so I'm I'm trying to make it is right.
• 40:24
  And so Calista was trying to recreate it the, the, the, the
• 40:29
  momentum after that of Weinstein being held accountable, Cosby
• 40:35
  being held accountable, you know, all of these people
• 40:37
  because the women started to talk or the survivors started to
• 40:41
  talk and, and accountability happened because we started to
• 40:44
  believe them. And I mean, the, the closing
• 40:47
  statements for the Weinstein retrial are today.
• 40:50
  And the reason that they had to retry it was because too many
• 40:53
  survivors spoke out, too many spirit survivors spoke out.
• 40:58
  And so, you know, a lot of times this pattern evidence isn't
• 41:01
  allowed in the courtroom. It is what happened on this one
• 41:05
  case and this one event in this one assault versus seeing this
• 41:09
  pattern of behavior. And the pattern of behavior is
• 41:11
  going to show you the things that you're not going to see,
• 41:14
  and the manipulation and the coercion and all of these other
• 41:17
  things where that might not be problematic in and of itself.
• 41:22
  Right, but it lets you feel the grooming.
• 41:25
  Evidence. You see the intention behind it,
• 41:28
  you see the grooming behind it, you see all of that behind it.
• 41:32
  And that's really important. And if Callisto can create that
• 41:38
  by connecting survivors, then survivors can see that.
• 41:42
  And then again, eventually we can get policy change.
• 41:45
  Yeah. So good, thank you so much for
• 41:48
  taking that dive with me. But I this is just too important
• 41:51
  to not share and let people know and give context behind.
• 41:56
  I really appreciate that. And this goes not, this really
• 42:00
  goes nicely into the importance of setting and coming back to
• 42:03
  your why and your values and everything you do.
• 42:06
  This work is very intertwined with your why and the things you
• 42:10
  value and what motivates you and lights you up to get up every
• 42:14
  day. Talk to me about the evolution
• 42:17
  of understanding your why and your values and how that
• 42:19
  connects to how you show up in the world.
• 42:24
  Yeah, I think, you know, I mean my why is because it's needed.
• 42:28
  My why is because I, I guess it's a gift that I can take this
• 42:37
  really challenging, traumatic information and put it into ways
• 42:42
  that people can understand. I mean, the amount of people
• 42:44
  that I've, I have talked to you over the years of like, no,
• 42:47
  that's wrong. And I'm like, well, tell me more
• 42:49
  about what, why you think what I'm doing is wrong and why
• 42:52
  you're worried about false reporting and why you're worried
• 42:54
  about this and being able to sit with people on both sides.
• 42:59
  It's just been a gift because that I didn't realize was a
• 43:05
  gift. So I think that that's the part
• 43:07
  of the why is just like seeing all the people, when I started
• 43:10
  doing this and I accidentally fell into an internship and I
• 43:15
  would tell people about what I was doing and then they would
• 43:17
  disclose to me. And I started really in my early
• 43:20
  20s understanding how pervasive this was and I could do
• 43:25
  something about it. And I think that that has always
• 43:28
  been the through line where before I wanted to rescue people
• 43:32
  and I wanted to help kind of going back to our conversation
• 43:35
  earlier. And now I want to make change.
• 43:37
  I want to make lasting change. Not for individuals, of course
• 43:41
  it's going to impact individuals, which is right.
• 43:43
  But lasting change where we don't have to experience at all.
• 43:47
  My number one goal in my career is to work myself out of a job.
• 43:50
  Yeah, yeah. I don't want to have to do this
• 43:53
  work, right. But it's, but it's needed and I
• 43:56
  have the capacity to do it and I'll continue to do it as long
• 44:00
  as it's needed. Thank you.
• 44:03
  I wanted to, I want to ask something real quick.
• 44:06
  The underreporting thing, that's always or that not the
• 44:10
  underreporting, sorry, the false reporting narrative that's out
• 44:15
  there. That's always been a narrative
• 44:16
  we've heard. I've heard a statistic, let me
• 44:19
  know if it's accurate or not, that 98% of the people that
• 44:22
  report being insulted, assaulted have been assaulted.
• 44:25
  Like there's a just such a small minute number that are false
• 44:33
  reporting, but yet there's this whole, every time someone
• 44:37
  reports, that's the first thing that comes out of the accuser's
• 44:42
  mouth, the first defense they run to.
• 44:44
  And it's like, why aren't we talking about more about the
• 44:47
  fact that like, no, no, no, no, no, 90, the 8% of the people
• 44:53
  that report are not making this up.
• 44:55
  That's the almost nobody is, you know.
• 45:01
  Yeah. And I think that there's so many
• 45:03
  reasons about it that we do. So I'm glad that you asked this
• 45:05
  question because I think that there's so many reasons that we
• 45:07
  really don't talk about. And the false reporting numbers
• 45:10
  are two to 8% depending on the study that you look at.
• 45:12
  So as low as 2% of false reporting.
• 45:15
  So that's where that 98% comes in as up to 8%, but it's still
• 45:20
  really, really minimal. However, I will say when I
• 45:22
  worked with offenders, anytime they got of accused, no, I
• 45:25
  didn't do it. Yeah, not one offender
• 45:28
  acknowledges that they do it like they.
• 45:31
  So they're going to blame a lot of other things.
• 45:33
  Part of that is because they've justified it in their mind.
• 45:37
  They've used the culture to justify it.
• 45:39
  They have like, you know, set their own that, you know, I, I'm
• 45:43
  a good guy. And they set the line where they
• 45:45
  want to set it, not where the standard should be, right?
• 45:48
  And I think that that part of that is others allow them to
• 45:52
  justify it by victim blaming, by doing all of that.
• 45:57
  And perpetrators are charismatic, they're good
• 46:02
  people, they do really, really good things.
• 46:05
  And we have put this vision of what sexual assault is into our
• 46:09
  heads from the media. That's not accurate.
• 46:12
  So most people when they think about sexual assault or they
• 46:14
  think about rape, they're thinking about some really
• 46:17
  violent act where somebody's yelling and kicking and
• 46:20
  screaming and, and they are physically overpowered and have
• 46:23
  a have a weapon or whatever. That is not most sexual
• 46:28
  assaults. Most sexual assaults are
• 46:31
  coercion. It's the grooming process.
• 46:34
  It happens well before the assault happens.
• 46:37
  There is a trust built. This is why priests and clergies
• 46:40
  and everything can do what they they have done.
• 46:43
  There is power and control over it.
• 46:45
  It can be slow. It can be really manipulative.
• 46:47
  And they use their presence of being a good person to convince
• 46:52
  not only you, but everybody else around you that what they're
• 46:56
  doing is OK. So that's why so many survivors
• 46:59
  take years to understand what happened to them with sexual
• 47:02
  assault, because it might not have been quote UN quote
• 47:04
  violent. It was violating, but it wasn't
• 47:09
  physically aggressive in in what we typically define as
• 47:13
  physically aggressive. And so you a lot of times
• 47:16
  survivors are left like that felt terrible that left trauma
• 47:20
  that left whatever. But that's not what I thought
• 47:22
  sexual assault was. And perpetrators use that too,
• 47:27
  because they're like, well, if I am not creeping out from behind
• 47:31
  a Bush and attacking somebody and tearing their clothing off,
• 47:34
  then I'm not raping anybody either.
• 47:37
  This is just what we do. Yeah, they.
• 47:40
  Use use that manipulation and tell themselves it was consent
• 47:45
  rather than a calculated setup over time to.
• 47:50
  Larry Nassar said for So every time he got accused, it's a
• 47:54
  medical procedure. And he convinced everybody that
• 47:58
  it was a medical procedure and it wasn't a medical procedure.
• 48:02
  You know, when Weinstein was more held accountable, he said,
• 48:05
  well, back in the day, it was just the culture that happened.
• 48:08
  That's just what we did because. Doesn't make it right.
• 48:13
  Well, that's just what what people did, right?
• 48:16
  Like because people supported him and he got away with it, but
• 48:19
  it doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it any less
• 48:21
  traumatic for the survivor. If anything, that makes it more
• 48:24
  traumatic. And so because we know that we
• 48:26
  have survivors in our lives, I think we also really have to
• 48:29
  recognize the fact that we have perpetrators in our lives too.
• 48:32
  And the first thing that we do is somebody that we know and
• 48:35
  love has been accused, whether we actually know them or not.
• 48:38
  Maybe it's a favorite celebrity that is ours is like, but that
• 48:41
  person seems like a good person. Of course they can't do that
• 48:43
  because you have a dichotomy of you're either a good person or
• 48:46
  bad person. Bad people are rapists.
• 48:48
  Good people are not rapists. And it's not.
• 48:50
  You can be both. So much more nuanced, so much
• 48:55
  more nuanced. And and like Cosby did amazing
• 48:58
  things for people of color and black folks in the entertainment
• 49:01
  industry, So many amazing things.
• 49:03
  That is true. He also drugged and raped women.
• 49:06
  That is also true at the same time.
• 49:09
  And so you have to struggle with like, but I love The Cosby Show.
• 49:13
  I loved, you know, I thought he was America's dad.
• 49:15
  Yes. And now you're wrong.
• 49:17
  And you have to face that. And so it goes on to like being
• 49:25
  willing and able as individuals for us to relook at things,
• 49:29
  Relookie, relook at people, celebrities, not celebrities,
• 49:33
  not judging. Like what you think, how you
• 49:36
  think you would act in that same situation or I would do this.
• 49:39
  I would do that. You know what?
• 49:40
  When your body goes into trauma, you don't know what you're going
• 49:43
  to do. You don't know if you're going
• 49:45
  to shut down, if you're going to freeze, if you're going to fight
• 49:47
  or you're going to flee. But most of the time you're not
• 49:49
  going to fight. Men might a little bit more
• 49:51
  because they have been they have been socialized to do that, but
• 49:57
  even it when they're assaulted, it still happens of freezing
• 50:01
  because they didn't know that what what happened to them was
• 50:04
  was assault and going back to the false reporting so often and
• 50:08
  I and I say this to people a lot too and it and it shocks them.
• 50:11
  But we talk about false reporting and we need to protect
• 50:14
  our men from false being falsely accused.
• 50:18
  On a college campus, a man is statistically more likely to be
• 50:22
  sexually assaulted than they are to be falsely accused.
• 50:26
  And yet we're not talking about men being sexually assaulted.
• 50:31
  We're more worried about protecting them from being
• 50:33
  falsely accused when they probably won't be then they are
• 50:36
  then we are from making sure that they have the resources and
• 50:39
  understanding necessary if they are being assaulted.
• 50:43
  Wow. That is such wow.
• 50:47
  Yeah, Everybody sit with that for a minute because that is a
• 50:50
  startling reality, but that just tells you what the cultural
• 50:55
  narrative has been around this discussion since time.
• 50:59
  You want to help men, help men understand that they can be
• 51:04
  victims and survivors too Start there.
• 51:07
  If you really care about men, that's the conversation that you
• 51:10
  need to be having and not well, what about men?
• 51:14
  It's you can advocate for men and you can advocate for women,
• 51:19
  but not only when people bring up women and say, well, what
• 51:21
  about men? Like that doesn't help either,
• 51:24
  you know, and it can be both. And there are different
• 51:27
  challenges of men being assaulted.
• 51:29
  There are different resources. There's different levels of
• 51:31
  shame, there's different levels of stigma there.
• 51:34
  It's not. Both can be like we have to hold
• 51:38
  2 truths at the same time or multiple truths at the same time
• 51:42
  and we as humans don't like doing that.
• 51:44
  No, it does not like to classify and moralize and moralize.
• 51:51
  Yeah. And we want it clean cut, no
• 51:54
  Gray, no nuance. Yeah.
• 51:57
  We want it just to be this is this way or it's that way, and
• 52:00
  we don't like dancing in between.
• 52:03
  Thank you so much for all of that.
• 52:06
  And this really kind of bleeds nicely into living out of your
• 52:08
  own expectations versus others. You are constantly having to let
• 52:14
  people know and communicate with people know.
• 52:17
  I'm living out of my own expectations.
• 52:19
  I'm living out of my own values, my own.
• 52:22
  Why not the things that make you more comfortable, not the way
• 52:28
  you wish the statistics were And and so not only true and you
• 52:33
  work, but also in your life and how you go about it.
• 52:35
  So talk to me about the expectations.
• 52:37
  Joining for you, I think that, you know, expectation is such an
• 52:44
  interesting word of what are the expectations in life and what
• 52:48
  are the expectations in this work and what are the
• 52:50
  expectations I have myself. And like, you know, when I was a
• 52:53
  young social worker, I thought my expectation was that I could
• 52:56
  help everybody and I can't and I won't.
• 52:59
  And I don't have that expectation for myself at all
• 53:02
  and anymore that there are people that don't want to be
• 53:04
  helped. And again, going back to the
• 53:05
  like, I'm not going to do more for somebody.
• 53:09
  We can't help everybody. Kalisto is not for everybody.
• 53:12
  It's not going to help everybody.
• 53:15
  And that's OK. It doesn't mean that we
• 53:16
  shouldn't help every the the people that do want that type of
• 53:19
  help. And I think the expectation for
• 53:23
  me is to do what I can, not to do everything.
• 53:26
  Yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's so because you have been
• 53:31
  gifted and and you've and you know what your value and your
• 53:37
  purpose is within this and that's what is yours to do.
• 53:42
  There's other people that will do other things within that
• 53:45
  realm. It's their students.
• 53:47
  So important, I think to have that understanding because we
• 53:50
  talked about it earlier. This is the kind of work that if
• 53:53
  you're not tending to yourself with those healthy, realistic
• 53:57
  expectations and boundaries and why and values and self-care and
• 54:02
  mental, emotional, physical health and the therapy and
• 54:04
  you're all in this thesis and time in your calendar to take
• 54:08
  care of you and fill your cup. And the acceptance of of not
• 54:14
  mind to fix mind to resource and support.
• 54:19
  You're going to you're going to end up.
• 54:20
  I think that's why we see so many people in this in this
• 54:23
  world. And I think as you go into it,
• 54:25
  you have to really assess, am I built for this?
• 54:29
  It, you know, am I do I have the practices in place?
• 54:34
  Or is there a different way I can show up here that can be
• 54:38
  supportive, that is in a lane that might learn more towards my
• 54:42
  strengths and where I do feel resourced and supported?
• 54:46
  And I think for a lot of this, the expectation is just a long
• 54:50
  marathon. It is not a Sprint.
• 54:53
  Yeah, well, I would like to work myself out of a job.
• 54:55
  The chances of sexual assault being done in my lifetime are
• 54:59
  pretty slim, and I'm realistic in that.
• 55:01
  And so it's like, but can I see the differences if I look back
• 55:04
  of like what the music look like with the, the media look like 25
• 55:08
  years ago when I started this, can I see that we've made
• 55:11
  changes? Yes, when I started talking
• 55:13
  about toxic masculinity in 2010, What, what is that?
• 55:18
  And then it got to a point where there was backlash about talking
• 55:21
  about toxic masculinity or, you know, with me too, It's like,
• 55:25
  what are you doing? I've been doing the same thing.
• 55:27
  And I'm going to continue to do the same thing because this is
• 55:29
  going to go like this. And then it's going to drop down
• 55:31
  like, and so it's going to be a roller coaster.
• 55:34
  And so I knew, I knew that me too was a peek and I knew there
• 55:36
  would be backlash because that's what happens.
• 55:39
  And so, you know, even when the election happened and we elected
• 55:43
  somebody that has been credibly accused of, of sexual abuse and
• 55:51
  has been indicted for that, I'm not using the right word, but
• 55:55
  basically convicted of sexual abuse.
• 55:59
  There was such a backlash. Feel like, well, what are you
• 56:00
  going to do? What are you going to do?
• 56:01
  I'm like, I'm going to do the same thing I've been doing
• 56:04
  because this is a marathon. And if we can Sprint a little
• 56:07
  bit, sure, let's, let's Sprint a little bit.
• 56:10
  But this is, this is a blip. It's a terrible, terrible blip.
• 56:15
  And we are seeing a backlash and we are seeing things change
• 56:19
  significantly, but we have to keep pushing forward.
• 56:24
  And so that's the expectation, you know, and like the
• 56:26
  expectation is if we can do a little bit every day versus a
• 56:29
  lot all at once, you can make better progress sometimes than
• 56:33
  that. Yeah, not always, but.
• 56:34
  Yeah, yeah. Such a great outlook on that.
• 56:37
  And yeah, such a, that's a, that's a topic that I, I get
• 56:44
  very fired up about and that's for another day, because I have
• 56:48
  very strong feelings about the, the fact that we have elected
• 56:53
  someone who's violated women over and over again so horribly.
• 56:59
  But but it it also just as a reminder, there's a lot more
• 57:03
  work to do in our culture and our society.
• 57:06
  And so we keep moving. Forward with that and you can
• 57:09
  you can see the progress. I mean, if you look at Anita
• 57:11
  Hill sexual harassment trial, people blamed her, they didn't
• 57:15
  believe her. When you look at Christine
• 57:16
  Blasey Ford, and granted it's the difference between believing
• 57:19
  a white woman versus believing a black woman, Which black woman
• 57:22
  have the least black victims have the lowest accountability
• 57:27
  rate in the criminal justice system, which is tragic, tragic
• 57:32
  and awful and unfortunately not surprising.
• 57:36
  But if you look at that, though, people believe Christine Blasey
• 57:39
  Ford, they just didn't want to believe.
• 57:43
  Kavanaugh, yeah. They couldn't admit that he was
• 57:45
  an abuser or a rapist, but they would believe her.
• 57:50
  And so we've made certain progress.
• 57:51
  But what we haven't made progress on is understanding the
• 57:54
  dynamics of the perpetrator. Yeah, yeah.
• 57:57
  Because of that, it goes back to That's a classic example.
• 58:01
  He didn't fit the mold that we have told ourselves based on
• 58:06
  movies and rhetoric that someone should fall into.
• 58:11
  And so, I mean, we saw the same thing a few years back with the
• 58:15
  Stanford swimmer who was accused of rape and did no, no time at
• 58:20
  all for it because he I. Think what did he did three
• 58:23
  months. Yeah, something like 3-6 months
• 58:26
  Max. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't
• 58:27
  much. And so it's again, it's like
• 58:31
  understanding what is actually true versus this, this
• 58:36
  stereotype that we have in our heads about it too.
• 58:39
  So much So it's education, learning, continuing to make
• 58:42
  sure the information you're working off of is actually true
• 58:47
  and. Thinking about acknowledging
• 58:48
  that maybe what you beliefs you held were hurtful, Yeah.
• 58:54
  And sitting with that and changing, yeah, I tend to do
• 58:58
  that many times. Like there are things that I
• 59:00
  have done wrong throughout my career that I'm like, Oh my
• 59:02
  goodness, I wish I knew that person that I said that too,
• 59:04
  because that was really like, I bet I impacted that negatively.
• 59:08
  And you know, it's you have to keep learning.
• 59:14
  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. All right.
• 59:17
  And that goes nicely into accepting the layered aspects of
• 59:20
  ourselves. But all those pieces and parts
• 59:24
  and nuances that decisions we've made, things we said,
• 59:28
  relationships we stayed in too long or that we didn't go into
• 59:32
  jobs we did or didn't take, You know, what things that happened
• 59:36
  to us that we feel, you know, shame and fear and all these
• 59:41
  things around that. And, and, and the truth of the
• 59:44
  matter, and I learned this the hard way in my own life, is you
• 59:47
  can't leave these things unprocessed and stuffed.
• 59:51
  They will come out in a problematic, harmful way if we
• 59:54
  don't address them and learn how to acknowledge them, give them
• 59:58
  the space and room to breathe that they need, and doing it
• 1:00:03
  with curiosity rather than judgment.
• 1:00:05
  So you can have. And that's hard.
• 1:00:08
  Listen, it is not easy. There's AI am you know, I've had
• 1:00:11
  my own journey. I am not the same person today
• 1:00:14
  in so many ways that I was 67101520 years ago, 20.
• 1:00:21
  You know, there are so many things that I would, knowing
• 1:00:25
  what I know now would have done differently in those times And,
• 1:00:29
  and I so learning to live with the regret from that, but also
• 1:00:33
  looking back at like, given where I was at the time, I did
• 1:00:37
  the best I could do it in that situation and it also did harm.
• 1:00:41
  Both things are true, but I'm learning, I'm moving forward.
• 1:00:45
  I won't make that again. I'm owning my piece in it.
• 1:00:49
  And, and so learning how to do that with ourselves and also
• 1:00:53
  with the things that have happened to us that weren't our
• 1:00:56
  fault and, and, and coming to true, you know, to the truth,
• 1:01:01
  regardless of how someone else responded or reacted to it.
• 1:01:04
  And, and being able to acknowledge and give that space
• 1:01:08
  to room and breathe and heal. So, and it's such an important
• 1:01:12
  part of our journey. And I have to imagine it's
• 1:01:14
  something that you yourself have to deal with in your own person,
• 1:01:18
  but also dealing with so many people that have all these
• 1:01:21
  unresolved layers as well. I think, you know, I heard this
• 1:01:25
  years ago and I don't, I don't know who, but, and it's, it's
• 1:01:29
  commonly said in our field, but it's not what happened to you is
• 1:01:34
  not your responsibility. How you heal from it is.
• 1:01:40
  So if you sit in the trauma and you're refusing to get help and
• 1:01:45
  you're refusing to heal and you're refusing to move forward
• 1:01:48
  and you're refusing to do all of that.
• 1:01:50
  And then especially if that causes harm to others, including
• 1:01:53
  yourself, that is where the problem comes in.
• 1:01:57
  But you cannot control what somebody did to you, and it is
• 1:01:59
  not your responsibility. So if you're sexually assaulted,
• 1:02:02
  it is not your responsibility that you've been sexually
• 1:02:04
  assaulted, but it is your responsibility to heal from that
• 1:02:07
  for yourself and for those around you, because then you're
• 1:02:12
  just going to react in potentially hurtful ways, again,
• 1:02:15
  to yourself and to others. And that's saying that you're
• 1:02:17
  going to go on to sexually assault.
• 1:02:18
  But you might not emotionally be there for your children or for
• 1:02:22
  your partner or for your friends or whatever the case may be.
• 1:02:25
  And you're not bringing your full potential to the world.
• 1:02:29
  And it sucks that you have to do that.
• 1:02:31
  We all experience something, something in our lives that has
• 1:02:35
  that has caused harm. And so it's all of our
• 1:02:38
  responsibilities to address that harm as much as we can.
• 1:02:41
  And there's it's an onion. You.
• 1:02:44
  Know you think that you, you have peeled the onion and you
• 1:02:48
  get to another layer and then the next layer makes you cry and
• 1:02:50
  you're like, I thought I'd done this.
• 1:02:52
  You know, feeling is not linear. It is not and it it is not an A
• 1:02:56
  to B line. It is a jagged, jagged, swirly,
• 1:03:00
  twirly line that you have to go back and revisit things that you
• 1:03:04
  thought you were over and then something else happens and then
• 1:03:06
  you're like, oh, I didn't realize I had more to work on
• 1:03:09
  with that. I thought it was over that.
• 1:03:10
  And then there's feelings about thinking you were over that when
• 1:03:12
  you weren't, you know, like it's, it's a process and just
• 1:03:16
  giving yourself grace for the process, giving yourself an
• 1:03:23
  understanding and then doing better.
• 1:03:27
  Yeah, Yeah. That's all we can do.
• 1:03:30
  Yeah. But it is important.
• 1:03:32
  It's not all that is what we can do.
• 1:03:34
  I don't want to say all we can do because it's important to
• 1:03:37
  take those steps and heal for yourself because you're worth
• 1:03:41
  it. And also so to enable you to
• 1:03:44
  show up as the person you want to show up as in the world and
• 1:03:48
  showing it in for your people the way you want to engage with
• 1:03:52
  them and you want them to feel from you.
• 1:03:55
  I mean, there's just so many pieces that go into it when we
• 1:04:00
  when we're willing to do the work and go down that road.
• 1:04:03
  It's so much, so much there. Thank you so much for that.
• 1:04:07
  In summary, in living out feel, finding empowerment, embracing
• 1:04:11
  layers, talk to me about the impact that has had on your
• 1:04:14
  relationship with yourself as well as your relationship with
• 1:04:17
  other people. Yeah.
• 1:04:20
  I mean, I think that all of that is so important, especially that
• 1:04:23
  embracing the layers because those layers, it's the
• 1:04:26
  dichotomy, you know, we, we think about the dichotomy that
• 1:04:28
  I've talked about before, but really it's layers upon layers
• 1:04:31
  upon layers. And it's, it's understanding
• 1:04:34
  that I have layers and my professional life, I have layers
• 1:04:37
  and in my personal life, I have layers.
• 1:04:39
  And in this work, there are layers and, and I don't get all
• 1:04:42
  the layers right. And I don't might not even know
• 1:04:44
  all the layers. And I think that that is just
• 1:04:49
  really, really, really important to understand and to keep in the
• 1:04:53
  forefront of our mind and to be really, really intentional about
• 1:04:56
  it. Because again, not, not
• 1:04:58
  everybody's going to like me. Not everybody's going to think
• 1:05:00
  that what I'm saying here today is, is insightful or is real or
• 1:05:05
  is whatever. And I can't control that.
• 1:05:07
  But what I can do is show up authentically as I can with the
• 1:05:11
  knowledge that I have, making sure that I'm continually
• 1:05:13
  gaining knowledge about this topic and just about myself and
• 1:05:17
  show up as authentically and true and honest and transparent
• 1:05:22
  and trauma informed as possible. And that, you know, that's why
• 1:05:24
  those really are the characteristics that describe me
• 1:05:27
  because I think about that and always that I show up and be
• 1:05:31
  unapologetically me. Yeah, so good.
• 1:05:34
  Thank you so much for that. All right, we are down to the
• 1:05:37
  rapid fire named 5 Activities That Nourish You. 05 activities
• 1:05:44
  that nourish me OK Going to comedy shows, live music,
• 1:05:50
  sitting on the Michigan side of the shore of Lake MI, traveling
• 1:05:57
  to any place I can travel to and being surrounded by my friends.
• 1:06:04
  So good. And five words in how you want
• 1:06:06
  to feel the next six months 5. Words in how I want to feel the
• 1:06:12
  next six months. Joyful, happy, resilient,
• 1:06:18
  empowered. So good.
• 1:06:24
  Oh, Tracy, thank you so much for all of this today.
• 1:06:27
  This has been such a wealth of information, so important.
• 1:06:31
  Thank you so much for how you show up in the world and having
• 1:06:35
  the, the willingness in the urgency and the sense ability to
• 1:06:43
  to do this, this, this hard work.
• 1:06:46
  It's so necessary and so important for women, for people,
• 1:06:51
  for students, men across the board.
• 1:06:56
  So thank you so much for that. Let people know, and this will
• 1:06:59
  all be on our resources page at embracinglayers.com as well, but
• 1:07:03
  let people know where they can find you and follow you.
• 1:07:07
  Yeah, they can find us at projectcallisto.org, Callisto,
• 1:07:10
  SCALLISTO. They can also find us on
• 1:07:14
  Instagram at Callisto. We are also have a pretty heavy
• 1:07:19
  presence on LinkedIn and if you want to connect with me, you can
• 1:07:21
  connect with me on LinkedIn as well.
• 1:07:23
  OK, great. Thank you again for your time
• 1:07:26
  today. Listeners, check out this
• 1:07:29
  information, be really mindful about it and and make sure that
• 1:07:34
  you have it and you're sharing it with others.
• 1:07:37
  And then my challenge to you personally this week is when you
• 1:07:42
  are engaging with people that are talking about these
• 1:07:47
  difficult things that have happened, make sure you're
• 1:07:50
  coming into it listening. Make sure you're unpacking
• 1:07:54
  stereotypes and stigmas, being very thoughtful.
• 1:07:58
  And if you're someone where this has happened to you, know that
• 1:08:02
  there's a safe place for you to go and be heard and have choice
• 1:08:07
  and get your power back. So I that is really my call to
• 1:08:11
  action on both sides this week. Tracy, thanks again so much for
• 1:08:15
  being with me. I appreciate you so very much
• 1:08:19
  and taking the time. No, thank you for having me.
• 1:08:23
  Absolutely. All right, everybody take good
• 1:08:25
  care. And we are so appreciative that
• 1:08:28
  you took the time to be with us today.
• 1:08:29
  We look forward to seeing you or I guess not seeing you, you
• 1:08:33
  hopefully you're seeing us and hearing from us the next time
• 1:08:37
  you'll you'll take some time to join us here at the Field
• 1:08:39
  podcast. Take good care.
• 1:08:42
  Hello, and thank you so much for being with us today on this
• 1:08:46
  episode of the Feel Podcast. If you would like more
• 1:08:49
  information on how you can apply these talking points that I
• 1:08:54
  share with our guests in each episode to your own life, really
• 1:08:59
  utilize this Feel framework. Go to embracinglayers.com, fill
• 1:09:04
  out our contact form and let's set up a free 30 minute
• 1:09:08
  consultation to talk about how you can start being your most
• 1:09:13
  authentic, organic, healthy feel fueled life.
• 1:09:18
  Thanks again for being with us today.
• 1:09:20
  We'll be back to you soon with another episode here on the Feel
• 1:09:23
  Podcast.