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Want More Clients? Steve Fretzin on Modern Law Firm Marketing (Plus, A Perfect Album) · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got to show the promises to be mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. For this episode's monologue, I'm returning to one of my favorite podcast segments, my ongoing list of perfect albums. You didn't think I finished the list yet, did you? Then we've got Steve Fretzin, author, podcaster and biz dev whiz kid. He's got some hot tips for law firm marketing and we know you can't get enough Fretzin, so Steve stuck around to reveal some of his more personal preferences in a new counter program segment. Are you frets in or are you frets out? Now? To answer the eternal question, who's next? Go home and get your shine box because it's legal. Late night at my old podcast, the Legal Toolkit, you remember that one, right? I had a list of perfect albums going When I left the podcast, we had covered seven perfect albums as follows in chronological order, Gordon Lightfoot Sundown from 1974, Paul Simon's Graceland from 1986 Volts Odine from 1993, Snoop Dogg's Doggy style. (01:25): Also from 1993, Cheryl Crows the Globe Sessions from 1998. Cole plays Viva Levita or Death and all his Friends from 2008 and Tara Swift's folklore from 2020 covered by my wife and the ultimate Swifty Jessica. So what that all means is we've arrived at the Elite eight, the eighth entry into my musical canon then is who's next? The 1971 recording from the Who, which is quite simply the greatest rock album ever made, but it didn't start out that way and the who didn't start there. So let's begin our tale with how, specifically how the who got to the place where they were able to craft who's next. The three founding members of the who started out as the detours before they themselves took a detour and changed their name, which eventually stuck after one final shift, all went to the same grammar school. The guy who started the band was Roger Daltry. (02:39): He was the original guitarist and then became the lead singer. He invited John Entwistle to play rhythm guitar, but he had trouble picking it up and learned to play the bass instead. Next game, Pete Townsend, the lead guitarist who would stick. Dory ran the band like a manager in the early days and Townsend was the creative force behind the Who. So their original drummer was a dude in his thirties whose wife was angry that he was playing in the band and staying out too late at night. More on that in the moment, but that's all very un who like, so he was replaced by Keith Moon who did not have any such hangups because he was a complete fucking lunatic. I feel like to be successful as a British rock band, somebody's got to get Pete Vested and the successful British band, the who did become the who's first single was called I Can't Explain, which is sort of an acknowledged ripoff of the Kinks. (03:37): That's another great British man's song called All Day and All of the Night, and that was pretty much the last time that Townsend with the original lineup of the who wrote a normal song with a hit under their belt, the who started to experiment their next single way Anyhow Anywhere was the first commercially successful and released pop song to include feedback on a guitar solo and added all sorts of other guitar trickery slash wizardry to the point where their label was nervous about even releasing it. The whose music was always experimental and the band Townsend especially committed to writing non-traditional lyrics and covering non-traditional subject matter. In other words, not just a whole bunch of love songs. So you Get I'm a Boy, which is a song about the misplaced order of a child in a future where you can order children from a factory who was supposed to be a girl but is actually a boy, the parents don't care and they treat him like a girl anyway, much to his chagrin. (04:42): Yeah, the song came out in 1965 by the way. Then there's Pictures of Lily, a song about a boy who is not interested in Real girls because he's too busy whacking it to the Tishler pictures of Lily in his bedroom. The real lily from the Pictures is Dead by the way, little Harold and Maude totally the who lastly Boris the Spider, a song about killing Boris the Economist Spider, which John Entwhistle said he had written but had not. He only had the name and put lyrics down for in less than 10 minutes for a recording session the next day. It's probably his most popular song, but after a couple records, my Generation and Quick one, those are the UK versions of the album titles. The band began to tire of the traditional format and released a concept album, the Who Sell Out, which included parody commercials for among other things, Heinz Baked Beans and Jaguar cars interspersed with regular songs before hitting their stride with their rock opera phase. (05:50): Those sell out, it should be noted features, their first great album cover, one half of which is Roger Daltry, literally bathing in a tub full of baked beans, probably Heinz Baked Beans. You'll never guess what the other side featured, but you're going to have to Google that one. I can't tell you everything. Now the who got a bunch of lawsuits that stemmed from this album because guess what? The real brands weren't happy about the parodies, not shockingly, the record was critically acclaimed but was not a commercial standout as expected, but that all changed for their next album When the Who Went Supernova, Tommy, their first full rock opera after a bit of an experiment on this second album with a suite called a Quick One While He's Away was about a blind, deaf and dumb boy who just happens to be a kick-ass pinball player. (06:45): Doesn't need a census for that and this album became iconic typically out there in who fashion? The entire album is a fully integrated story with some amazing vignettes. Everybody knows the Tommy. Can you hear me? Part Pinball Wizard is the Earworm to end All Earworms and there are other single level tracks on the album, Mike Sally Simpson, and we're not going to take it. I fucking hate musicals, but Tommy is great. Tommy, the 1969 Rock offer would become Tommy, the 1975 movie with an unbelievable cast. Roger Daltry is Tommy. We've also got Elton John as a pinball wizard, Tina Turner as the acid queen, Eric Clapton as the preacher and fucking Jack Nicholson showing up randomly as the doctor who also had lined the aisle of white festival and appeared at Woodstock in the same calendar year. Not too shabby, and I think that at that point folks were probably thinking they'll probably never to this only they did with their very next album. (07:51): Who's next now to me, the who or what I think of when I think about rock and roll. They are the quintessential rock band. They're loud as fuck, they're experimental. Roger Daltry screams a whole EF a lot is the lead singer. Pete Townsend windmills his arm when he's playing the guitar. Pete Townsend smashes that guitar when he's done playing it and Keith Moon destroys his drum kit. They were a kick-ass live band as well. Everything that's great about rock and roll and who's next is their masterpiece. I mean, let's just start with the album cover. It's a picture of the entire band having just pissed all over a monolith in the middle of a slag heap in England, which is basically what they did to every other rock album every release after this album came out. So it kind of sets the tone in reality, Pete Townsend was the only one who could actually get himself to pee for the photo shoot and I think that's kind of fitting honestly. (08:46): So who's next was actually another failed rock opera because the intention post Tommy was for Townsend to write a new rock opera called Lifehouse. The idea beyond Lifehouse is fucking nuts by the way. He essentially wanted to build a machine, an actual physical device to generate home music that was merged with computerized biographical data from their fans, and he wanted to do this in 1970 when computers were roughly the size of Mack trucks. He had a nervous breakdown because the idea was too significant for him to convey to his band mates and I don't know the rest of humanity as well. So the rock opera broke down, but who's next was born, so who's next is the best possible rock opera because it doesn't have any of the filler, it's just the singles and they're all fucking bangers. This is the kind of album you put your noise canceling headphones on for and just crank it up. (09:46): Maybe one day it will be a computer simulation, I don't know, and we'll find the universal chord that Townsend was seeking, but so far he's still almost 60 years ahead of the rest of us. The big songs from who's Next you're probably familiar with are Baba O'Reilly, colloquially known as Teenage Wasteland, which is effectively the chorus. That's a tribute to a combo platter of Townsend's Muse, spiritualist, Maha Baba and composer Terry Riley. Not to be confused with Boston Bruins enforcer, Terry O'Reilly, that's different dude. This is also Townsend going all in on synthesizers and the way he never had before, which is something the band had only experimented with previously and was something really new to pop music. This song has a bit of DNA of the original Lifehouse concept and the Townsend attempted to create a biographical piece of music by tying the personality of Baba into the musical stylings of Riley. (10:43): I mean, who the fuck knows if that worked? I certainly don't, but the song is Pretty Dope Bargain is the next song on the album. It's Townsend's favorite song on this record and in typical Townsend fashion, it sounds like a normal love song, but it's actually about finding spiritual enlightenment. Oh, there's a twist. George Harrison would've been proud, but he could never rock it so hard though there's a great somber interlude in the middle of the song Won't get Fooled again as the track that closes the album and that is a powerhouse rock song if there ever was one. It may be the Powerhouse Rock song if we're being honest. The concluding lyric Meet the New Boss same as the Old Boss, is basically why I've lived my entire life as someone who is not a joiner. This was also supposed to be the crescendo of the rock opera as well, and you can tell the riffs on this song are fucking electric. (11:38): In my opinion. This is the best two song Fittingly on the best two album. This is maybe the perfect song Behind Blue Eyes, another famous song. This is the one that winds up to a fairly climactic rock segment and also some more amazing Townsend lyrics When my fist clench is Crack It Open before I used it Lose My Cool, which introduces that last hardcore segment of the song. I can remember it back to when I first heard this song not knowing how it ended and I was just like, holy fuck. It remains a crime against humanity that Limp Bizkit rerecorded the song by the way. But my favorite tracks on who's next are what many consider to be the Lesser Tracks, either because they're simpler, lyrically or musically. Love Inc for Keeping is not the best song on the album, but it's my favorite song on the album. (12:27): I like how this is an acoustic track uniquely mixed with multi-track guitars as it breaks up the harder tone on most of the rest of the album. If you listen to records all the way through though like I do, loving For Keeping is like a little intermission after getting sonically bashed about the head and face for 10 plus minutes with Baba O'Reilly and Bargain, the placement's perfect and the lyrics I think speak more to the inevitable loss of love than just getting some on a summer day rolling around in the grass. This shit ain't Afternoon Delight. My second favorite song on the album is actually the Next Track, and that's John and Whistle's song, my Wife, which she also sings Lead on. This is just a fun little song about a guy getting hammered and being afraid of getting caught by his wife. Interestingly, there's no guitar solo on this song. (13:16): Remember Ant Whistle never really took to lead guitar. A lot of people think going mobile is a cheesy song, but it's a great driving tune. The lyrics are pretty simplistic for a Townsend song, but I like the mix of acoustic guitar and synth. It's also another change up with Townsend's singing lead vocals Soul On this one, I think it's kind of funny that the design is also about a dude trying to stay off the radar of law enforcement authorities by driving his RV around. Getting in Tune is a track that continues to build upon itself over his entire runtime. It's about a singer trying to find meaning in his lyrics and his music, and this one does not include any synthesizers, which is a major break from the rest of the album. The song Is Over is the only song in the album I hadn't mentioned yet, and that's the one real ballad on who's next. (14:07): Toson Adultery Exchange lead vocals on this song, and this is probably my least favorite song on this album, but it would be my favorite track on a majority of other albums by other bands, and I guess that's how you get a perfect album. The variety of tracks on who's next is simply Astonishing. Now after who's next, the original version of the Who had three albums left in them, another Rock Opera Quadrophenia, which is their worst one but is some Good Tracks. Next came The Who By Numbers, a proper album, no concept album, not a rock opera, probably due to Townsends Writer's Block. I mean produce murders, row of albums like that. You probably run out of ideas after a while, but the Who by Numbers does have a large volume of solid tracks. In 1978, they released, who Are You featuring the title track, which I think is a pretty popular song that most people know. (14:59): And this was the last album with the original band as drummer. Keith Moon died three weeks after its release. Moon was raging alcoholic and died overdosing on drugs meant to control his withdrawal symptoms when he was trying to kick the habit on the album cover, moon is sitting in a backward facing chair with the words not to be taken away, written on the back of it the who did not shut down. However, after the death of their drummer like Led Zeppelin did when John Bonum died, but they were never really the same group after that though Dalry and Townsend still perform as who I think they're on tour right now and they even released an album together in 2019. In 2023, the band released a who's next Lifehouse super deluxe edition, which is I guess better than the regular deluxe edition and is a full 10 albums worth of music. So this is where I opine that phos that was never going to be finished and who's next is the rare example of not letting the good be the enemy of the perfect. So who's next? Well, that's both pure and easy. It's Steve Fretzin. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast, so I'm going to just tap dance I guess for the last half hour or so. The one issue is I am No Gregory Hines, my friend. Now I'm just fucking around. We're going to do an interview. We usually do that other thing. Sounds awful. Our guest today, it's Steve Fretzin everybody. He's the principal of Fretzin Inc. Steve, how you doing my friend? (16:41): So good to be here, be on the show and get back to yuck it up with you once again. We're like a good yuck. Steve Fretzin (16:47): Yes, yes. Let's do the boring stuff first. No, keep listening. Steve. If folks don't know who you are, which I don't know, I feel like that's insanely in life possible. How Jared Correia (16:57): Is that even Steve Fretzin (16:57): Possible at this point? Can you tell people what you do? I don't know. For the people in Antarctica who haven't listened to your podcast or read your books yet, I'll get to that in a second. Yeah, just give what's going on over at Frets and Inc headquarters these Jared Correia (17:09): Days? So I started off as a male model a few years ago when I hit 50. Steve Fretzin (17:14): Yes. Jared Correia (17:15): And Steve Fretzin (17:16): Wow, you started late, you started your career late. Late. Yeah, that's Jared Correia (17:19): Slander. Apparently that's when my wife started getting attracted to me. Once I hit 50, I was what they call the silver haired what? Silver fox. Silver Steve Fretzin (17:27): Fox. I know. I feel like you're a silver fox. Yeah, there we go. Silver fox. Nice. Jared Correia (17:30): But when I'm not male modeling or adopting dozens of children, I run a company that does only one thing and that is work with attorneys to help them grow their law practices. We're known as the business development be that lawyer guys, and it's just our greatest pleasure to teach the skills that lawyers never learned in law school and that includes everything business development related so individual attorneys can take things to the next level and be that lawyer. Steve Fretzin (17:59): Let's talk about some of the stuff you do in terms of content marketing. I think it's interesting and it's also like an avatar for attorneys who want to do the same thing. You've written a lot of books, man. In addition to male modeling, you're like the Danielle Steele of business books for lawyers. You just cranked these fuckers out all Jared Correia (18:16): The time. I got number five right behind me, brother. I was going to say, I was going to say you're in it. I got you in it somehow and you not even not even practicing right now fully. Steve Fretzin (18:23): Oh, bribery works. Jared Correia (18:25): Yeah, Steve Fretzin (18:26): Bribery's good. Alright. What's this one called Jared Correia (18:28): Coming Soon? This is, I don't even know the name. It's be that Lawyer 101 Top Rainmakers Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice, something like that. I think that's what it's called because I haven't looked behind me in a long time. But it's wonderful because I've had such an incredible run of interviewing top rainmakers on my podcast, sharing their wisdom, and what I've been able to do is take all that great content and essentially look, if you could be in a room with a hundred in one top that are telling you this is how to do it, this is what I did. These are suggestions and tips. I think most lawyers would want that book. I know I would. Steve Fretzin (19:07): So in terms of the book writing stuff, I know you're on book number five at this point, but what made you decide to do it in the first place? Are you just like, I've got stuff that I need to repurpose or is it like I want to be an Jared Correia (19:18): Awesome, it's literally the only interesting story I have was about books. About books. Steve Fretzin (19:23): We're really selling it here tonight. Jared Correia (19:24): Yeah, you really it. Steve Fretzin (19:25): Stay on Please. Jared Correia (19:27): So before I got into working with lawyers, I worked in over 50 industries and one of the guys I worked with is a friend of mine named Steve Hamburg and he is in the data security business cybersecurity stuff, and this is back, we're going back 20 years and he says to me, I helped him double, triple his business to the point where he sold it and could basically retire. So we're fans of each other, but ultimately he said, look, I have a book idea for you. I want take you to lunch and I want to tell you what it is. Essentially there's another book out there called The Goal. You know about that book? It's a book on operations, but it's told as a story. Okay, Steve Fretzin (20:09): A full disclosure. People know this. I think I don't read business books. No, Jared Correia (20:12): And you don't have to because I'm going to tell you what it's about. It's about a guy who runs a factory and the point of it was it was a parable, it wasn't a how-to book. I can write articles, I could write how-to books no problem. But to write a story about a character who's a coach who works with three entrepreneurs, a lawyer, blah, blah, blah, that I had never conceived of and never thought of. And so he said, this is the book you need to write. And I said, oh my God, that sounds really hard. And it was really, really hard. Again, I can write an article for Above the Law in about an hour, but writing a chap Steve Fretzin (20:49): Different story, Jared Correia (20:50): But writing dialogue. And he said this and she said that, and this is what I mean, that was really outside of my comfort zone and my editor was not easy on me, but I knocked it out. It's called Sales Free Selling. It talks a lot about the methodology of what I'm teaching lawyers how to grow a book of business without ever feeling salesy. And that was the story of the book. But it took a client coming to me saying, I have a book. You need to write this book. Basically putting it on me. And I was like, all right, I'll do Steve Fretzin (21:20): It. Interesting. Jared Correia (21:20): That's how that happened. Steve Fretzin (21:22): That was book number one. Jared Correia (21:23): That was book number one. Yeah. Steve Fretzin (21:24): So do you have the same process now that you're in book five or is it a little bit different? Jared Correia (21:28): It's very different. This book is a hundred percent of repurposing. So as opposed to this book being what I have to share, and I've shared a lot in four books, this book is unique because it is what I'm able to pull out of others and what they can share. What does J Korea have to say about marketing that people would want to know? And there's a lot, but I can summarize it in a chapter and get it down to Steve Fretzin (21:52): Books to find out. Jared Correia (21:53): Yeah, I want to find out. But bringing it, condensing something down, getting the goods and then condensing it down into a chapter and providing that kind of information, I think is that's the most excited. I've been about a book since I think the first one. Steve Fretzin (22:09): Oh, that's cool. Yeah, you built this kind of content marketing program that's really impressive. Got a lot of different categories of content pieces. The other one you got is your podcast. So you've got the Be That Lawyer podcast and you're pretty prolific there. We were talking before we started recording today, and I think you're saying you're doing two to three shows a week, right? Jared Correia (22:28): I'm producing two a week. I mean, sometimes I'll record four or five in a week and I'll get way ahead of my production schedule. I've got 'em for I think the next 10 weeks already done. But I absolutely love the podcast and people think that, Hey, I shouldn't do a podcast already so many out there. I go, there are a lot out there, but there aren't that many good ones. And you just need to find the people who can appreciate your angle and the quality that you're bringing to the table. And if you can do it the right way and people like it and they feel like you're kind of hanging out in the backseat listening to a conversation, which is what I think your show's all about and have been about is people just feel so comfortable listening to you interview and have fun dialogue with somebody. And I've sort of emulated that in mine or tried to, not as funny as yours, but we're talking about serious stuff here. The legal business development marketing Steve Fretzin (23:19): Biz dev is serious shit. Well, thank you. That's very kind of you to say. But I want to know, how did you end up, you said you were in 50 industries before you did this. How did you end up landing on this as a career? You've been really successful at it, but how did that star for you? Jared Correia (23:34): It was really sort of by accident. The recession of 2008 led to Steve Fretzin (23:41): Oh yeah, good times. Jared Correia (23:42): I mean, good times, bad times. I've had my share, the hours were cut. Attorneys that had 2000 hours a year cut in half, they were fired. General counsels were let go, people were going solo. It was a mad dash for people to survive. And all of these entrepreneurs in these 50 industries that I'd worked in, people were saying, Hey, you're really successful. How did you do it? Or who do you know? They kept referring lawyers to me that needed help. And I think between the need in the industry, they don't know anything. And the fact that I was teaching sales free selling really connected well. And so it was one attorney, then two, then a firm than another. And then I think about 16 months I had about 80% of my business was lawyers and law firms. And I'm telling them how important it's to specialize. And then one of them said to me, well, why aren't you specialized? You work with most the attorneys. I go, don't do that to me. Don't put me Steve Fretzin (24:38): On hate it when that happens. Jared Correia (24:40): Don't call me a hypocrite when I'm being hypocritical. Steve Fretzin (24:42): I tell you what to do. Jared Correia (24:43): Yeah, it's do as I say, not as I do the rules. So no, I was like, alright, I guess look, I can be a, here's the thing, and I tell this to lawyers too. You can be a specialist and you can promote yourself as a specialist. That doesn't mean that you have to reject the business that's coming in where it's not your specialty. It's up to you if you decide to take it. So even when I decided and pushed all my chips in into legal and started promoting my, I changed my, by the way, you'll love this. The name of my company before Frets and Inc was Sales Results Inc. Can you imagine attorney hiring guy, sales Results Inc. God the most sales name you could have that entrepreneurs love by the way, and lawyers who get sales love, but it really wasn't working. They were embarrassed to carry around my materials. It got really Steve Fretzin (25:30): Lawyers who get sales, how many of them Jared Correia (25:33): In (25:34): High, one to 2% range is what I'm thinking. And it didn't happen overnight. I think it took me about a year to kind of make that move and really start changing everything. I had to update all my materials. I had to change my website, I had to change my logo. Everything was different. So that's kind of how it went down. Honestly, I've never looked back with any regret. I feel like the legal community has adopted me as I've adopted them. It's been a beautiful partnership and now I'm international. I'm working with attorneys in Brazil and Israel and Saudi Arabia and Canada. Amazing. It's just been an incredible, incredible experience. Steve Fretzin (26:08): That's cool. Yeah, the sales free selling I think is the key that unlocks the door. Like you said, Jared Correia (26:13): Pretty sweet Steve Fretzin (26:13): Lawyers. They hate it. Jared Correia (26:15): They hate it. I mean, they're so angry that they're like, this is not is bait and switch. This is not what I signed on to do. I'm going to be the best lawyer I can be. And now by the way, you're telling me I have to go market myself and I have to go land not a Steve Fretzin (26:29): Vacuum cleaner salesman. Jared Correia (26:30): Come on. They're not happy about it. But there's 10% that get it and that really go after it. And the rainmakers that people talk about at the water cooler, and those are the folks I'm spending the majority of my time with. So happy days. Steve Fretzin (26:43): Oh eight I think was when I started doing consulting too, probably for the same reason. Jared Correia (26:46): It was a good time. Good year. Steve Fretzin (26:48): Yeah, Jared Correia (26:49): It was a good time to start Banner year for some Steve Fretzin (26:51): Started on this Jared Correia (26:52): Less so for Steve Fretzin (26:52): Others. I'm interested in your thoughts on you've been in this space for a while. So there's been two pretty significant changes I think in the last five years. And this is not like any brilliant commentary, but we had the pandemic, which sucked everybody who was doing in-person network. It was kind of fucked at that point because there was zero in-person networking and now there's AI and there's probably a world in which we have robot dogs networking for each of us. At some point in the future, we're going to be sitting at home. So how should people be networking now and how should they be preparing for the future of networking? What does that look like to you? Does that change? It seems like it's been pretty resilient cause post pandemic like conferences are coming back and that kind of thing. Jared Correia (27:38): I mean yeah, everything's cyclical. Everything's coming around. I think the problem that I'm seeing is that people aren't preparing for a next pandemic. They're not preparing for ai. KPMG just came into the space in Arizona. They're not preparing for what's going to happen with the true professional business consulting people start taking over legal, they're really not thinking ahead. AI is going to take away the billable hour in some ways in how people are making money. So there's all these things coming at lawyers and I think most of them are just honestly hiding under their desk. They want to understand it or hear about it and kind of pick up on it. But as far as taking action and doing something progressive to improve themselves around it, it's still the minority. It's still 5%. Maybe Steve Fretzin (28:23): Not super encouraging. Jared Correia (28:24): No, sorry, but maybe this is a look, everyone that listens to this podcast is getting a wake up call. You and I are having this conversation and (28:32): Look, I can't predict the future and say it's going to happen. All I can do is go based off of the 2008, the pandemic and what I see coming up with the political world and everything happening economically, you better start preparing yourself with some solid networking, building your relationships. And I've said this before and I'm pretty sure I stole it from someone that you only have two things that really matter as a lawyer. One is your lawyering skills that you can take with you and carry on with you. The other are your relationships and your clients. And if you're the greatest lawyer in the world that you don't have your own clients and you have to now start from nothing and go get 'em because your firm just got absorbed, mean, think about up anything political, but Trump Steve Fretzin (29:11): Down. You can bring up political stuff on Jared Correia (29:13): Here. Go ahead. I'm just saying Trump is going to shut down a few law firms and how many more because he wants them out of the way. I wouldn't be happy at Skadden right now at Perkins Coy thinking that somebody can just take it all away because they're angry with us or disagree with us. I mean, that is so concerning to me and should be to the legal industry. Steve Fretzin (29:35): I'd be pissed off too. Yeah, it's Jared Correia (29:36): Scary as hell. Steve Fretzin (29:38): Well, it's funny, you see the associates coming out and saying shit about that. Some of 'em are resigning, but then they're having trouble getting other big law firms on board with their lawsuits, which I think is problematic that nobody wants to say anything. On that note, how do you feel about that in terms of networking? Should people be talking about politics at this point? Jared Correia (29:58): No, Steve Fretzin (29:59): Because it's so polarizing Jared Correia (30:00): At this time. It is crazy if you can identify that someone shares the same political views that you do. And by the way, I love Trump. I think he's the greatest thing that's ever happened to the world in case you go that way, everybody tells me that he's great. Tears are saying in their eyes with tears in their eyes, Jared, they come to me and they say, sir, no one's better than this. Alright. So I think if you find, I have a client who is aggressively Republican, and we agreed when we met each other that we knew there was friction, that there could be friction. And we said, listen, let's not talk about this. Honestly, that's what we did. And we said, look, we need to accomplish something together. We need you to build your book of business and we've got this thing on the side and I'm going to actually help you leverage it. I'm going to help you lean into networking and getting business from the hard where he was. And we did that and Steve Fretzin (30:57): That together. And there certain ways to do that Jared Correia (30:59): And we didn't need to get into it. We could still be friends and we can still disagree, but if you figure out that someone has the same political views or economic views or religious views that you have, go for it. Talk it up, bond around it, that's fine, but it's not something you would bring up in a networking event. It's not something you would bring up unless you absolutely knew that someone went the same way. That's sort of like rule number one. Right. Steve Fretzin (31:22): Okay. Okay. Still in effect. Still in effect. Jared Correia (31:26): Still in effect. Yep. Steve Fretzin (31:28): Couple marketing greatest hits for you here before we slide into my last segment, which I'm very excited about. Sure. What about community focused networking activities for attorneys, community based in terms of city, county you live in, state you live in versus just going to the lawyer events all the time. Is that effective and necessary? What are your views on that? Jared Correia (31:57): Yeah, I mean the first thing I do when I meet a lawyer that we, and we agree to work together is we evaluate their business, where the business came from, where the business needs to come from. Is this national in scope? Local in scope? So let's just take a hypothetical. Let's say it's an estate planner in Cincinnati, Ohio, going to estate planning functions in Cincinnati, Ohio and meeting people that do the same thing. Probably not a great idea, right? Right. You want an multi-time marketing book, blue ocean strategy, right? The sees bloodied red with competition, go where the blue ocean is. So let's think about the church, the temple. Let's think about the sport that you play. So I play a sport in Chicago, and it's in Boston called Platform Tennis. Okay. It's outdoor in Steve Fretzin (32:41): The winter. Oh yeah, you were. Tell me about this. Yeah, yeah, Jared Correia (32:43): Yeah. It's like pickle, but you've got screens surrounding you, but it's private clubs and community clubs playing against each other. So I'm running around playing this sport. I love having whiskey and food with. Steve Fretzin (32:55): Now you have my attention whiskeys involved. Now Jared Correia (32:57): You Steve Fretzin (32:57): Have my Jared Correia (32:57): Attention. I love the bourbon and I'm enjoying drinking bourbon, bringing bourbon, sharing bourbon, playing against, beating up on people. That's my thing. And networking. You're the enforcer and platform tennis. I'm so sorry that we destroyed you on the court, but I'd love to share my bourbon with you. And by the way, what do you do? What's your day job or whatever. That's funny. And we get to know each other, but I'm dealing with, and then these people are super interested to hear what I'm up to. And when they hear that I've got this unique space, everyone seems to know a lawyer. So we get into this great conversation. So I like the local networking where you can find common ground with people like a church or temple, a community board or charity or something like a sport, like a golf group that goes out and plays golf or bowling league. Those are phenomenal ways to Steve Fretzin (33:49): Network. Great. Okay. Plus in GE Suburban, that's a good deal Jared Correia (33:54): As well. Look, and if you can have let's real fun and meet great people, I don't see a Steve Fretzin (33:57): Downside. All right. Last one for you. So you've heard a lot of talk about elevator pitches. People still talk about this in terms of marketing. Is that still as important as it used to be or is it more about getting as many touches or views as you can get? Is it more repetition than just having a great opening line? Do you still need both? Do you have thoughts on this? Jared Correia (34:19): I find there's two things that bother me about elevator pitches at a networking event or when you meet someone or even seeing it on their website or whatever. Number one is when they say, I'm a CPA and I do this and I do this and I do this, and I can tell if I go to four, I do this or five I do this, everyone's going to turn off your podcast. Nobody wants to hear that crap. I mean, it is so just catalog. It's so fricking boring of everything that this person does. And I can't tell you it's eight out of 10 lawyers are still doing the God damn, I do this, I do this, I do this bullshit. It's awful. (34:57): The other thing that isn't done is why do you do what you do? Why are you unique? Why are you special? Why do you stand out authentic? And people aren't being authentic. They're just going through the motions of telling people, I work at this firm, maybe do we cheat 'em and how? Or whatever. And then they go through the list of I dos and it's awful. So I think whether it's your website, your LinkedIn profile banner, whether it's your infomercial, you need to have something that grabs attention and you need to have something that makes you memorable or draws out a question. And I think it's a lost art form that people aren't investing enough time in. Not only knowing it, but memorizing a few versions and having it at the ready. So I'm at the ballpark and I'm sitting next to someone and we get into talking about the players or whatever, and I say, oh, by the way, nice to meet you, Jim. What's your day job? And he tells me I should have something at the ready so that I'm not making it up on the fly. It's never going to come out as well if you're winging it. Steve Fretzin (35:57): Yeah. Not a list of I dos though. It's something that is authentic to you. It sounds Jared Correia (36:02): Like that's something that's going to be interesting to the person that you're sitting across from. I mean, do you want them to go, oh, another lawyer, right? Or do you want 'em to go? That sounds really interesting. Tell me more about that. Yeah, please. Steve Fretzin (36:15): So that's great. I think that's really good advice. And then the second piece of that is once you meet somebody, then I think it makes sense to tie them into your content marketing program. So how do you do that? Do you meet somebody, you hit it off and then it's like, Hey man, you should subscribe to my podcast. Is that how it goes, or are you more subtle about it Jared Correia (36:36): Than that? I'm more subtle than that. Steve Fretzin (36:38): Okay. Alright. I thought you Jared Correia (36:38): Meant, I mean, subscribe to my podcast. You may mention to someone that you Steve Fretzin (36:43): Have podcast dude, like I haven't said that Jared Correia (36:45): You've told me five times before we got on air. Honestly, it's really like what I try to teach and what I try to do is everybody has value as a friend. I mean, if you like somebody and you want to be friends with somebody, go for it. But from a business perspective in your time, everybody including lawyers, has a limited amount of time. So there's someone I meet that I go, this person's never going to be a prospective client for me. They're never going to be a connector for me. There's never anything business-wise we're going to do together. I can still be their friend, I'll connect with them on LinkedIn, they'll see all my stuff, and that's sort of the end of it. Then the other side of it is, this person is a lawyer, they're at a half a million, they want to get to million and make equity. (37:24): They've told me all this information. Maybe it would make sense for us to get together and have a coffee and get to know each other better. And maybe they'll tell me more about it and that may be the direction I go with that person. And there's all the things in the middle. So I think it's really about, to some degree, the word qualifying. And I hate to say that because again, everybody's good potentially for a friend. But when it comes to my valuable time, I'm qualifying who I connect with on LinkedIn, which takes no time all the way to who I want to go spend an hour with, which takes a lot of time. And then there's everything in the middle. Steve Fretzin (37:55): Gotcha. I dunno, I'll say it. Some people will, I qualify them outside out of a friend category. Sure. Do I want to be friends with this person? Not necessarily. Yeah, not really. I'll be that guy. Yeah. But we're friends. Yeah. So you ready to come back for one more segment here? I Jared Correia (38:10): Think it'll be fine. I got to come back Last time, I think we did something about the Olympics in the winter and it was Steve Fretzin (38:16): Destroyed me. We did the shitty Olympics. The shitty Olympics, which is like shitty Olympics events. Now I don't want to repeat, so we're going to be doing something different, but I think you'll like it. Jared Correia (38:24): I'm here. I'm here for Steve Fretzin (38:25): You. Alright everybody, we got Steve Fretzin coming back around in a second. Welcome back, everybody. That's right. It's time for the counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at greater depth with my guest. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Steve, welcome back. Jared Correia (38:52): Hey, awesome. Happy to be here. I wouldn't miss it. Wouldn't miss it. Steve Fretzin (38:55): So one thing I think that you do that well, I don't think I know you do it and I love it, is when you make introductions to people via email, you call them frets introductions. Can you confirm this? Jared Correia (39:07): That is true. Yeah. I think that's, I dunno how long ago I started doing it, but someone said was I was going to ask you that. I never stopped. Yeah, I got addicted to it. Great. Anything I can attach my name to apparently is now a thing. I've got frets introductions, I've got frezen. So Steve Fretzin (39:22): I want to give you an even newer version of this. Jared Correia (39:25): Okay. Steve Fretzin (39:26): I wanted to have a little segment here that I'm going to call. Are you Fretz-in or are you Fretz-out? What do you think? Jared Correia (39:34): Yeah, I love it. Let do it's do it. Let's see if they're in or out. Steve Fretzin (39:38): Alright, I want to talk about trends, various trends that I've been noticing and I want to know you as the arbitrary of trends in this segment of the podcast at least. What do you think? Is this a trend you're in on or is it trend you're out on? So lemme start. Jared Correia (39:55): I'm out on trends. No. Steve Fretzin (39:57): Okay. Well then, alright, everybody thinks we already for Cumins? Yeah, you're out on trends, but that wasn't part of the questions. So all the answers are going to be No, let's start there. Okay. Alright. I learned this the other day. I was shopping with my daughter and she picked up something from Lululemon, which it was like this tiny bag that wrapped around your waist. And I said to her, our fanny pack's back and she got very offended. She's like, these are not fanny packs. They're called belt bags. No. First of all, she's yelling at me right now. Now, first of all, do you remember fanny packs back in the day? A hundred percent. Jared Correia (40:39): And I have five of them, Steve Fretzin (40:40): Right? Jared Correia (40:42): Now's not. No, I've bought five fanny packs in the last five years. What? Steve Fretzin (40:47): No, no. You're Jared Correia (40:48): Hitting on a very important Steve Fretzin (40:50): Subject. Oh my god. Please elucidate. Jared Correia (40:51): Okay, here's the deal. In the eighties and the nineties, all we had was our wallet and our keys wallet in the back pocket. Keys in the front pocket. Steve Fretzin (40:59): Best time to be alive. Yes. Jared Correia (41:02): Yes. Now what do we have? We've got keys, wallet, phone, glasses, chapstick, whatever it is, a bottle of water. Okay. We got to have our water for some reason. So I started wearing a sling bag and then I stopped doing that. It was bothering me and I started wearing, so I went to take my teenager to Steve Fretzin (41:23): Sling bags are over the shoulder, right? Is that Jared Correia (41:25): Right? Yes. Steve Fretzin (41:25): Yeah. Jared Correia (41:25): Yes. And some of them can be sling and some of them can be fanny pack. And I've decided I'm off the sling. I'm a hundred percent on Fanny now. Everyone told me I'm weird and I'm stupid and it looks dumb. And I said, wait a second, I'm married. I don't care what other people think. It carries my stuff without my pockets being loaded up. So I am a hundred percent fanny pack friendly and I think it's a trend that is going to blow up. And all guys are eventually going to have fanny packs. Steve Fretzin (41:57): Are you going to start referring to them as belt bags or are you going to be old school and do the fanny pack thing? Jared Correia (42:01): No, no. It's a fanny pack. I think your daughters, you're fooling herself. Steve Fretzin (42:04): It's funny, you were initially like, I'm not into trends, but clearly that was a lie because you bought five fanny packs last five years. Jared Correia (42:11): I love trends and you could tell your daughter that you've got all the riz and see what she says. Steve Fretzin (42:18): I do know what that means. There you go. Alright, number two. Number two. I hit a nerve on the first one. Let's see if I, you do it again. You, Jared Correia (42:24): Oh man, you hit me hard. Perfect. Steve Fretzin (42:26): Here's something I, so I went to get a sub the other day and I noticed that there were three or four different varieties of potato chips that were dill pickle flavored. Jared Correia (42:37): So Steve Fretzin (42:37): I feel like pickles are making a huge comeback right now as a pickle moment. And then you've also got a lot of pickle flavored foods coming out. My wife and daughter ordered this flavored pickle to eat the other day. It's like a single pickle that comes in the bag in the mail. And then I haven't done the pickle flavored food yet. Where are you with pickles? I'm out on pickles. But are you frets in on pickles? Jared Correia (43:03): I am frets in on a few pickles. There are some really well orchestrated kosher pickles and there are some really unique flavored pickles that I will try. I am not in on. I'm out on pickling other foods and try to make you enjoy a food that is now Steve Fretzin (43:22): Pickled Jared Correia (43:24): Herring. Steve Fretzin (43:25): Yes. Jared Correia (43:25): No, I'm out. Not a pickled herring guy. Steve Fretzin (43:29): Good line to draw. I think. So for the pickles that you like, do you have any recommendations? Jared Correia (43:34): Yeah, like a nice kosher pickle. The ones you'd get in a deli, they put 'em at the table. They're very mild, they're not aggressive. They don't hurt your throat with the spices. I like that they going to take a bite of crispy pickle with a sandwich. A deli sandwich. Steve Fretzin (43:49): Yeah. That is excellent. Jared Correia (43:50): Yeah. Steve Fretzin (43:51): Alright, so we're two for two. You're in on both trends. Okay. I'm not sure if this is a trend, but I'm trying to bring it back along with Emmanuel Macron, president of France, sideburns. Sideburns. Jared Correia (44:06): Are Steve Fretzin (44:07): You in or out on sideburns? Jared Correia (44:08): I told you you looked like your photo on it. LinkedIn looked like Dracula because those sideburns, Steve Fretzin (44:12): Well, when we started doing the show, my light was bad, so it looked like I had literally no blood in my body, so we changed the lights. So it looks like I'm actually human Jared Correia (44:22): Again. White facing the sideburns trouble, Steve Fretzin (44:24): But I'm not a vampire. So yeah, I've had sideburns since I was probably 17 years old. I just love them. But that are youre, are you frets in on that or is that Leave it in the seventies. Jared Correia (44:34): I think I'm frets out on that. Yeah, not a big sideburn. Again, I've got sideburns that go right into my beard, but that's it. That's the only Steve Fretzin (44:42): Excuse. All right, well I'll live one for three here. Jared Correia (44:47): That's right. Steve Fretzin (44:47): Okay. Jared Correia (44:48): I mean, it looks good on you. Is that the Steve Fretzin (44:50): Oh, sure it does. Oh, now you're like, Jared Correia (44:51): Oh, Steve Fretzin (44:52): By the way, it's terrible in, Jared Correia (44:54): Put it on your black cape and then fly around and see how it goes. Steve Fretzin (45:00): I got three more for you. One is athleisure. So similar to the fanny pack debate. Are you an athleisure guy? Are you frets in on comfort even in business settings? Jared Correia (45:17): Yes and no. I'm going to say I'm frets in mostly because I just went on an, Steve Fretzin (45:23): I love how this is going by the way, but go Jared Correia (45:25): Ahead. It's sweatpants and t-shirts and fleece. That's 80, 90% of the time when I'm not on a Zoom, that's what I'm dealing with. Okay. When I'm walking around the neighborhood, when I'm running around, even on an airplane or even, I went on a college tour. We were at Utah and Colorado State for my teen and I'm walking around in sweats the whole time. And by the way, they're wearing pajamas, so I'm still a step up from the Steve Fretzin (45:48): Teens. That's Jared Correia (45:49): True. Steve Fretzin (45:49): Yes. Jared Correia (45:50): But I'm going to a business networking meeting. Nope. I'll do slacks. I'll do a button down shirt or a polo. Steve Fretzin (45:57): Really? Jared Correia (45:57): I'm not going to do a suit. Suits are out for me. I'm not doing a suit. I'm not doing, I'll only do a sport coat if I'm speaking, presenting somewhere and never a tie. I'm out on ties. If I Steve Fretzin (46:07): Out on ties completely, Jared Correia (46:08): Completely off on ties at this point, I'll wear a nice shirt and a jacket even. I want to listen to this. They have these new jackets that are like a fabric jacket, not a fabric jacket. They're all fabric, but like a really soft stretchy jacket that looks like a sport coat, but it's not. It's a different fabric I like now and I want to get one of those. Steve Fretzin (46:28): Okay. This is good Jared Correia (46:30): On the leisure wear. Steve Fretzin (46:31): I knew you would have opinions on all this stuff. Jared Correia (46:33): Oh yeah. Steve Fretzin (46:33): So I don't know. I went to networking meeting the other day in the t-shirt and Shortes and I was like, this is what I do now. Jared Correia (46:39): See, but here's the thing. There are some Steve Fretzin (46:42): People that tell me I'm bad. Tell me I'm bad. Jared Correia (46:43): No, no, I was going to say there's some people that can pull it off that I don't give a shit attitude. I've made it, and Jared, you've made it so you can do that. You can give me Steve Fretzin (46:56): Thank you. Jared Correia (46:57): Thank you. You're welcome. Steve Fretzin (46:58): All right, I got two more for you. I was looking for TikTok trends today. Are you a TikTok guy or no? Jared Correia (47:03): No, I'm more of an Instagram. Steve Fretzin (47:07): Okay. Okay. Have you heard of Milton, the Dancing Rat? I'm assuming you haven't. Jared Correia (47:11): I have not. Steve Fretzin (47:12): Alright. This is the latest trick, TikTok trend. Jared Correia (47:13): Okay. Steve Fretzin (47:14): We'll have to do a special episode on this. He's a 3D animated rat and he's dancing in rain boots, but it's not raining. This is one of the most popular things on TikTok right now. So take a look. Tell me if you're fret in or fretz out on that, but so you are out, you're fresh Jared Correia (47:29): Out on TikTok Steve Fretzin (47:31): In on Instagram. Is that just because of the platform or is that because it's off and on so much and it's not reliable? Jared Correia (47:38): I know. I think I just got confused with all the China business and they're turning it off. They're turning it on. What I love about Instagram is there's so much to learn, not to get nerdy, but there's like you nerd can listen to a clip of a podcast. I can look a TED Talk. It's just all this great insight that we never had growing up. We didn't know Jack. Steve Fretzin (48:03): I didn't know a damn thing. Jared Correia (48:04): You didn't Steve Fretzin (48:05): Go to the Encyclopedia Britannica. Jared Correia (48:07): Yeah, that's how we learned stuff. And that was a joke or go to library now. Steve Fretzin (48:11): So fucking old. Jared Correia (48:12): You just type it into YouTube or Instagram anyway. Steve Fretzin (48:15): They're like, Hey, I just bought an encyclopedia set from the encyclopedia salesman. Now I finally get to find out where Croatia is. What a time to be alive. This is how well we know each other. Because my last one was whether or not you were in or out on pickleball. Now you're a platform tennis guy, but does that mean you don't play pickleball or do you try Jared Correia (48:36): Both? No. So here's what happened. I play Paddle in the winter, I play tennis in the summer, and then a couple summers ago I transitioned into Pickle and now I'm anti tennis. And people go, why are you anti tennis? Because it's doubles and it's boring as hell. You just stand there at the net and you let the other guys hit a bunch, and then you move to the other side of the net and you stand around. Look, the other guys hit a bunch in pickle. At least you're involved in all the points. That's true. And there's only one serve, which I think should be mandatory in all sports. Steve Fretzin (49:08): I love this. So you're a pickleball guy and you do platform tennis as well. Jared Correia (49:12): Okay. Yeah. Steve Fretzin (49:13): Okay. Jared Correia (49:13): And they're similar in fast hands and staying in the point. And don't make mistakes and don't be stupid, which that's where all the bad pickle is, is people making mistakes. Steve Fretzin (49:25): What a renaissance man. Jared Correia (49:27): Yeah. Steve Fretzin (49:28): Hey, thanks for sticking around for a little bit. Jared Correia (49:30): I appreciate I wouldn't miss it for the world. This is always a pleasure and always a lot of fun, a lot of laughs and I'm just happy to be here. So thanks man. Steve Fretzin (49:36): Hey, if you're not Fretz-in on Fretzin, it's about time Jared Correia (49:41): On here. Steve Fretzin (49:42): Thanks Steve. Jared Correia (49:43): Thanks man. Steve Fretzin (49:46): Thanks to our guest, Steve Fretzin of frezen Inc. To learn more about Steve visit frezen.com. That's F-R-E-T-Z-I-N.com. You got to be fretz in right now because I'll always be a nineties kid defacing my sister's copies of Tiger Beat, whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlist for every podcast episode that I record where the signs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist is, who's that? The Who Primer and is sponsored by Hides Baked Beans. Wait, that feels derivative. I'm just kidding. By the way, Heinz Baked Beans hasn't sponsored shit, but I wish they would hit me up. I love beans. Join us next time. When I feed my life force into a Moog synthesizer, it can be done!