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S1E6: Your Brand Is Your Reputation · Biblical Business Podcast

• Calvin Seamons: I think that you are approaching branding from a selfish perspective. A brand always starts with someone's selfish opinion. So before we actually start these podcasts, typically Adam and I have just some we're just talking about whatever. And this this conversation that we've just had has gone up for the past hour. And I'm like, we have to stop and just just talk about this as a long. It has, dude. And so I'm like, we need to bring this online and actually talk about this and like have this disagreement here because what we're talking about is branding. And what I feel like where this resolution is gonna happen is you're gonna feel strongly over here, and I'm gonna feel strongly over here. And we're gonna agree on a lot of things and disagree on a lot of things. I don't see us seeing eye to eye at the very end of this. And this is specifically personal take. And if there's I I don't know, there's not a verse that's coming to mind for me that talks about branding. And maybe, maybe I need to be convicted on that. Not not when it comes to branding taste. Let your light shine. Before men that they may see your good works in heaven and give and give your father a glory heaven. So we're just talking about letting your light shine. The question is, what's that light look like? And that one we don't have a prescription on. We don't. And so, and the reason this conversation began was because of the branding currently for the Biblical Business Podcast. My take, coming from a background 12 years making commercials for brands like Amazon Whole Foods Walmart, and now doing adding branding work to the photo video work that we're already doing is How the importance of branding and what it communicates from a psychological standpoint. And so what we did today was I began the conversation of saying, hey, I've got a hard tr truth that I'm gonna come out and say with love. And it was that I think that you are approaching branding from a selfish perspective. And I I told Adam, I was like, I think that from the Sherman Research side of it, to the biblical business, to the Adam Weisner brand itself, that the everything feels super unified. And you're not designing this with a customer and customer in mind. And and he I think there was some agreement in that to where there's unification and similarities to where we have a lot of minimalism. That's how you define good branding. And I feel like everything works under these three companies. So I dug myself a hole on that one. Yes, and I completely agree. all of the brand designs come from a place. of personal opinion and then the the export of that personal opinion has to do with meaning. So like with Sherman research, there's a lot of meaning in the logo. The logo is an expression of the gospel. that is the desire for that logo. Now, is a customer going to know that? No, they're not going to at first glance. But for example, first principles, I can tell you that I have had advisors You were on a call actually with one of these advisors who said that he shows his clients the logo presentation on the website because of how powerful it is to express the gospel. So I would just make a quick argument to say that selfish quote selfish output was was not really a I mean it it was in the sense that I selfishly want people to know the gospel and I also selfishly want the logo to be cool but hidden. and mean something. But that doesn't mean the customers won't like it. Sure. And so then I'll counter that argument and say we had a different client meeting where a different advisor was like, I I can't show my clients any of this because it has the space theming, it doesn't feel professional. I don't understand it and basically the logo, it was the naming convention, the nomenclature around the call it the the signals, which by the way, let Again, let's be really fair. Yeah. You that was the first meeting you were in. I've been in tons of those meetings before that. Sure. Way more, by the way, way more meetings of people telling me that they didn't like the space theme than than meetings of people telling me how much they liked it. I would say it's like 90 to one. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's the ratio. So that I think the another point that I want to like I want to try to acknowledge the middle ground while while we have this. Okay. Yes. I think another point that I can agree with is everything is subjective. And I think that you could use any argument to justify some sort of creative decision. so I'll agree with that. Where and what I also believe is that every decision from a branding standpoint should come from a place of intention. So when we look at the logo, when we look at the colors, when we look at the typography, the spacing, whatever, it should come with this middle through line of we made this decision because of X, Y, and Z, which is what we've always agreed upon. And that's how you create. Unification across the whole game. Yeah. There's a we're in complete agreement that every branding decision should have a deep intention. Yes. Yeah. And and so you also have strong opinions on the opposite direction. And I almost because I think what I said Well, I I think that I think that the intention is always there. The the difference is that kind of what you've shared is that you think that that intention should be focused on the customer. And my question back to you was how do you define what is good for a customer? And when you look at brands like the ones that you said you did commercials for, yeah, all of those brands have already been established, right? Those are brands that already exist. Yeah. And when you look at a brand like Amazon, it is not the brand. The brand design did nothing for the build of that company for a decade plus. Yeah. The creation of using the trust blue or using the smiley face that looks kind of like a Nike swoosh came decades later after they had a lot of money and it reinforced the brand. And what the brand was was their reputation. And what their reputation was was you can buy some find something from us, buy it and get it quickly. And so I believe that the br the brand i is your reputation and that reputation comes from your product. So when you look at Sherman, our brand, our reputation is that we deliver High quality investment research to investment advisors that is, you know, deeply researched and tactical. And we deliver on that so that it works in the market. The the output of the logo is purely choice. and the question just becomes who's making the choices? So I think before we go too much deeper, I think we have to define what branding is because I think that we also probably have two different definitions of this. Okay. Well, how would you define it? Your brand is your reputation. Your brand is your reputation. It's what people believe about the what you think. Okay. And how you operate. Well people believe about what you think. Yeah. Yeah. So, like the reason that Apple's campaign did what it did is because people wanted to be a part of a rebellious fight the power innovation. The reason that people love Yeti is because they want to be a part of loving the outdoors and this utility feel, right? So what people are looking at when it comes to a brand. Is what is it that you believe and do I align with that? Right. So it's the same thing when you're building a personal brand. For example, right? I've spent whatever only the last year sp building a quote personal brand. When people watch a video, you go, Well, did I have a brand on my name? No, it didn't really matter. The brand is your reputation. And your reputation is people watching the way you think and then going, okay, I agree with the way they think or I don't agree with the way they think. Right. It's attract great brands attract and repel. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right. You're going to you're going to bring in your people and you're going to repel the people who aren't your people. Yeah. So that's why I find it to be a good thing when you have people tell you that they don't like it or they love it. I have no problem with that. but it is, you know, when you think about Apple and you go, What's their brand? You would never say that it's colors. and you definitely wouldn't say that the very simple Apple logo is something special. Yeah. You would say it's a reputation for beauty and innovation and execution on the product delivery. And that's what people trust. That's what people buy. Right. so I think brand again is defined as in my terms, that's how I would define it. How would you define it? I define it as the subconscious affiliation of unrelated things. And so when we think about the colors that you might use in a specific brand, it's like what do those colors reflect? And what are some other brands that might use similar colors? When I think of let's double click in Apple because you kind of you started talking about them as a brand. I think of two ads, two ad campaigns that they did. One was at the Super Bowl in nineteen eighty four when You know, it's very very dystopian. And this woman comes in and this crowd of people and throws this hammer at the screen and shatters the entire screen, right? Epic. And it was like, what is this? This is weird. It's it's like different. But the whole purpose was think different, right? Yeah. And it's certainly not their vibe now. Yes. And then what was it? It was Apple Intel. And like the the battle between was it Intel or something? It was called a get a Mac the Get Americ campaign. Yes. And people probably remember that more as I'm a PC, I'm a Mac. That's that sort of two guys sitting there talking. Yes. And and it was comparing them. And it was like such a a fun line to walk. And what it became was like this real like kind of laid back dude who is a Mac and then this very buttoned up kind of like CPA who is pocket protector. Yes. Who's a PC. And so to me, it's like what that starts is you start the subconscious affiliation at that point. Because you're like, would you rather be would you r resonate more with the pocket protector? So the first argument, that's not a subconscious affiliation of unrelated things. That's a direct association and a competitor analysis put right in your face. But and I nothing unrelated about that. It's simply them going, Do you wanna be this or do you wanna be that? Which one are you? So now I I kinda almost want to tie this to the brand moat position. Like f from the law from the law itself, that that you have written, your law. how how do you define like the brand moat and why is it important? So I think it's more even more important now, but essentially you look at a moat, right? A moat is designed to protect a castle from enemies, from attacks. It's the thing that protects you. And I believe that your brand is the ultimate moat. It is what protects you from the two things that people mostly suffer from someone coming and doing the same exact thing as you, or someone coming and doing it cheaper. So if you are if you don't have a brand moat, then somebody coming and doing it cheaper becomes something where you're just a race to the bottom, right? Sure. Like a great example is like an application into Amazon. Right. One of the things that anybody listening to this who's in small business knows there's something called map pricing, minimum advertised pricing. And one of the games that people play in the world of retail is you have to set certain prices at a certain level. It's called map. Well, on Amazon, if you violate a price, right, you can have map enforcement to try and get people off. But what people do is where you have a commodity, let's say somebody's buying, I don't know, chargers. If they can sell your product or the same product for a penny cheaper, then Amazon's algorithm will push it higher. So then when you go into Amazon and you find it, you're gonna get that one. Well, that becomes a race to the bottom on pricing, which completely does the opposite of what a brand mode does. You're just a commodity. Yeah. So when you look at, well, how does a brand then protect you? Well, let's let's use Apple. Okay. Apple has survived a lot of change over time. And there are people who do interesting things. If somebody comes to disrupt Apple, they will have to get through their brand moat. Now, the moat doesn't guarantee that you're protected forever. It just creates a protective layer around you so that even if somebody comes and does it the same, people are like, Yeah, but you know. So for instance, you will buy, you and I will buy the same Nike shoe made in the same factory by the same people. With the same material, but it doesn't say Nike on it, we'll pay more. Yeah. If it does say Nike on it, we'll pay more. Why? Why would we do that? It's a commodity. It's the same thing. Uh-huh. Purely brand. The brand has created a moat. And why has that brand created a moat? What is the moat? The moat is your reputation. It's what you believe that company says they think, right? So I want to be associated with. that kind of thinking. I want to signal to other people that I think the way Nike thinks. Right? That's why when you see a Nike ad for the Apple Watch, it shows a like what, a two second flash of the Apple Watch, but it's like a a garage door opening and it's the early morning and someone's lacing up their shoes and they're getting on a bike. So what are they telling you? They're saying we think it's important to get up early, to have discipline. To work hard, then you say, I agree. Yes. Or somebody else watches that and goes, No. Yeah. I I'm not I'm not in that. So the br the brand moat is essentially by building an actual brand and expressing and sharing with people the way you think, you build a protection around your business that price and copycats have a hard time disrupting. And I okay. So for the sake of this conversation, we we're using the word brand branding a lot. And I do think that there's like a separation between the two. Like to me, a brand is the way that people perceive your business and branding is the active process of shaping that perception. are we and maybe we're not, but I would say that would sound like going down the path of your brand back. So again, your definition was these the subconscious correlation of unrelated things. Yeah. My definition is it is your brand is the way you think, essentially. It's your reputation for the way you think. And there's advertising, which is the things we started talking about at the beginning of this call. Yeah. Or beginning of this meeting, very different than than branding, but that is an expressive output quote. I'm gonna use the term branding, is the action. Of taking your brand and putting it into the market. There are there are different ways to do that, of course. So, like, how do you take the way you think and put it into a logo and into a color and into a type font and into a layout on a website? And it and and those are the things where that's where our disagreement comes into play, basically in that space. I want to get even more micro than that because I think that the main point of the disagreement is you said the the phrase, like the way that you think. And you being the brand, like as as a brand, this is how we think. Correct. And and which goes back to my initial point that I'm again I'm saying I love is I think the selfish way to look at it because I think the brand itself is the way that people others proceed it. So you think that Apple is selfish for saying that we think that the system should not be followed? No, no, I think my argument is you're saying the way that you think, being your brand. And what I'm saying is like brand being the way that other people perceive your business. No, but you're you're there's a there's a circular logic there because Apple, someone decided Apple, this is what we think. Yes. We think the system should be bucked. Yes. Okay. Then they went, we're gonna go express that. And then after that, people decided whether or not they agreed with that. They didn't say, What do people think? Mm-hmm. They said, this is what we think. We're st we're putting our stake in the ground. That's what really what branding is. We're putting a stake in the ground. We're Yeti. We're putting a stake in the ground that we believe that spending time in nature is important, that relationships are important, the story is important. Stake in the ground. Do you believe that? Yes, great. You're gonna come be a part of this brand. No, I you're not interested. You're like, I want a modern home. I don't I want, you know, glamping is the best thing I'll do. Yeah. So going back to the first point, I agree with you. The start of branding is a selfish positioning of what you think about something. And when you decide on that, you put your stake in the ground. Point. You have to selfishly decide what your brand is, present it to the world, and then the world is going to determine an opinion about it. It doesn't work in the inverse. They don't determine an opinion about it, and then that N now you there are cases where people go, Hey, I want to dream up something new. I don't know what to dream up. Let's go start doing some straw polls and asking people what they like. And we're gonna do some controlled interviews and we're gonna do some case studies. And then out of that, we're going to word cloud and then come up with I don't know, people in this community really want you know, something to hold their logs to take it to the fire. Yeah. And so we're gonna design design that. that's really designing a product, not designing a brand. A brand always starts with someone's selfish opinion about what they believe about something. And then they have to put that into an output. Uh-huh. And then people will have an opinion on it. But you cannot work it in reverse. And so then then I would say I think that becomes the difference between a mature and immature brand. And and I'm gonna as we get into that conversation, I think what we can agree on is the most important thing ultimately is that there is some exchange of money. And that you try to work to retain that customer, right? And so brand is ultimately going to just help how do you communicate this? And what ways do you communicate this? But when I look at if I look at a website for a company and the company does the exact same thing, but I am scrolling through a website and I'm like, This this is sick. Like this is really cool. And this other one looks like it was from like the early 2000s. Yeah. I'm gonna have, I'm gonna develop an opinion. Yep. Right, without even having tried the product and that might determine whether or not I buy it. And for the next person, they might go on the site and not give two cruds about that brand. And they want to see that it does what you said it does. Yes. And when they do, they click buy. Yes. And I don't disagree with that either. Because at a certain point it is just gonna be subjective. So then my question my question then goes to AI, right? Because I think something that you said before is in in the realm of AI, the mo most important thing that's going to be happening for business is that there's some sort of a brand established. A hundred percent. I I think it's the most important thing. I I believe that the capacity capability of AI is inversely correlated to trust. Meaning as it gets more capable, people become less trusting. Right. And everything becomes like, is that AI? Is that AI? Do you actually know what you're doing? Or did AI just tell you what to do? Did you really build a brand or build a website? Or did AI just stand this thing up for you with like best psychological practices? Is this really your opinion and your taste? Or is this AI's taste? And this comes back to the selfish thing, right? Like it's gonna do an amalgam of what a bunch of other people's tastes are, not yours. And I don't know anybody else else's tastes, I know my own. So then y but the in the way that they're symmetrically correlated. Is that with its capability, the importance of your brand moves up directly with it? Because if you can get the same thing anywhere, and what AI does is it very quickly commoditizes everything, right? If I can go get and work with anybody to do a video edit, because AI can do it now, and a bunch of people stand-up marketing agencies, why am I going to pick one over the other? Well, I'm going to decide. likely on one of two things. And the first one's usually the the the biggest decider. Number one, price for value. Is this the cheapest way for me to do the minimum version of what I want to get done? Yeah. And then the second would be your reputation. Yeah. Essentially, can I trust you? And I think The the can I trust you becomes more and more and more important. Because, like, for instance, in the finance world, would you just trust any AI to run your your investment strategies? Some people would say yes. Some people would. Very early adopters are doing it, right? They're like, I'm gonna give it all the inputs and then I'm just gonna like let it do my trading. Yeah. But I tell you what, it's not as many because people are like, Well, I don't, I can't I can't trust that. Like, I don't really know how it. thinks. I don't know that it has a moral compass. And this comes back to like from a biblical worldview, if you're hiring consultants, if you're hiring people to do things in your business and it's only about the commodity, and you don't actually know that this is somebody who believes the same things as you, yeah. Well, it's not that they they have to to for you to get a good output. The question is, what's your goal? So I think AI will create more importance on trust. And a and a great demonstration of trust would be like brand trust would be it used to be, and it still is, that if Apple comes out with something, people buy it. Right. There's just trust. Like they trust something to deliver. I would say Tesla is a similar brand at this point. Like if or SpaceX, if if Tesla or SpaceX were to come out with a phone tomorrow, a bunch of people would buy it. Right. Pre-order it because of trust. and are you saying the trust has come from a place of SpaceX has done epic things, Tesla's the best car that's ever been made. And so if those two things are true, then if they're gonna make a phone, then it's also gonna be a banger? Yeah, I mean I would say like purely brand, Tesla and SpaceX don't really have much of a brand. Tesla uses like the old Tesla T and you know, coils and like stuff that. Nobody really knows, nobody really understands. They just know it's a T. and then this like basic text. But in their outputs for the last however long, yeah, they have proven that they can deliver a an incredible product that adds value for people. The future of AI, all future currency is articulation. Because right now, the constraint is your ability to articulate yourself. Yes. And and on the brands part, part of my brand moat is that you need to make content. Well, one of the most cool benefits of you making content is that you get better at articulating. And as you get better at articulating, you get better at taking what's in here and putting it out to here, which the future will reward those who can articulate the best. When everything is voice, your ability to know what to ask for is going to be the limit. Of what you can actually get done. So the people who know how to articulate well are going to win, which tells you, from a branding perspective, hey, build and do more content and get better at your articulation and practice that skill, build that muscle. It's a muscle you can build because it's going to be highly valuable in the future. and back to the the the AI point, your brand is going to be separated only by people understanding what it is that you believe and think. Or you're just gonna be in the race on the commodity, which is also an option. Lots of people do that and they do it really well. And you can you can build a great business on commodity. You just have to be really good at it. I I think so how do you develop trust in the AI era? I've got my opinions, but I I'm curious to hear yours. The way you develop trust in the AI era is by sharing more content that gives people deeper view into how you think. And in that, you have to, it's table stakes, you have to deliver a fantastic product, value exchange. Ideally an uneven value exchange. Where what they get from you is far greater than what you get from them in the exchange. So okay, so this is my take on it is I think Fashion typically sets the trend when it comes to what's about to happen when in the branding world, in the marketing world. And a lot of times it'll start in fashion as like a more experimental and it'll become more refined in a commercial sense. And one of the things I thought was really interesting was in the fashion world, there was a lot guess, for instance, was a brand that started to use AI generated images. And got a ton of backlash. Yeah, yeah. Right. And it was like, okay, you're not gonna use real use real models. We don't know how these clothes actually fit, like you don't care about us, right? It goes down this rabbit hole and you can make whatever excuse, but their customers are just expressing the way that they felt when the brand decided to use AI generated images. You swing it in the opposite direction, right? And you go like high end luxury fashion, and Hermes is a brand that it's like, okay, you're gonna spend twenty, thirty thousand dollars on a Birken bag. Like you want to know its quality. Yeah. And right if they want handmade. Yes. And if they used AI generated images for a product product that cost $20, $30,000, what does that communicate? To me, they're they're gonna spend pennies on a product that costs tens of thousands of dollars. It cheapens the value of the bag. And so instead, what they decided to do was they hired an illustrator to create these custom drawings. Of with different patterns that ended up being on their website for a long time, that now is like these scarves and interior of the of these purses. And it was like it was drawn by hand. And I think it was almost this intentional decision against AI to where, hey, if you can pump out a ton of content that is just strictly AI generated, then what is the value of that? If we swing in the opposite direction and look at the hand craftedness, the intentionality that goes into each one of our bags. even from just an illustration, then what is that going to communicate to the customer? And I think that's a really interesting point. And I again I love ads. And so Coinbase did an ad earlier this year called Your Way Out. And a few things that were real was really interesting about it. It was this commercial that they made that was shot on that probably I would have argued could have been cheaper if they shot it digitally instead of practically. And it's like these characters who are actual characters, right? So you can see it's like this is actually just a costume in and of this dude dressed up as an NPC character, like from a video game. Yeah. Okay. And this this whole thing is like once we get to this point, this is a practical set. And I'm like, okay, I have to then look at why do they decide decide to do this practically? And because that would have been probably cheaper for them to do it digitally. That would have been way easier for them to do it digitally, but they chose to do it practically. And my mind goes to then, well, they're communicating something. What are they communicating from a subconscious level? They're communicating the sense of especially with the being Coinbase of futuristic technology that's dealing with a digital currency with Bitcoin, with Ethereum. What they're trying to communicate is some element of trust. And what AI communicates is that lack of trust. Because it's becoming a commodity, anyone could use it. And so as they're establishing and deepening their brand, they're making this conscious effort to make it extremely human at the cost of of revenue, at the cost of the time that it'll take, the iterations, the they're making an artistic piece at a certain point. And that that says something completely different than if they were to make this digitally. Yeah. I and I I think that's an it's I find both of those interesting. I do think that a lot of companies can get into a a level of self indulgence. Because at the end of the day, what's Coinbase's goal? Probably to get more users on signed up for Coinbase and using Coinbase. That's it. So that's how they're gonna define success. Yeah. And doing these things, it's it's an interesting play to define something as more human when you are inherently digital, even to your base of like the the primary currency trade. And I and I I was an early Coinbase user. Yeah. I think that Hermes is like It's an intri it's also an interesting one where you go, Well, yeah, they're doing that because they have such a small customer base that they need to express something deeply to them. The output though still has to be the back. So in the future, no one's gonna know that it was an AI generated thing. And they they're going to they could make a video of what looks like somebody drawing a bag and going through the whole thing that they that they created this campaign on, and no one's gonna know. Difference. So I th I think, again to the AI thing, everything digital that you consume will be there'll be some level of skepticism around it, but there'll also be people who just don't know and don't care. And so the in-person experience side will become way more important because the one there's two things you can't well, you can fake it, but it's more difficult. you can't fake in person. That's one. And two, stuff like this. Like if we were doing live, yeah. that's difficult, right? Because yeah people there's a lot of people who say a lot of stuff on the internet, and then you get them into a live conversation, and you're like, whoa, they don't have the ability to actually have those kinds of thoughts in real time. And so people will sniff test again, trust, they will sniff test like who who who you are and who is your brand. I think that the the in-person plays and creating s creating scarcity and Intentionally human stuff. I'm a big fan of it. But I also know that that a lot of times people don't care about what I care about. So a lot of these brand choices come back to what do you want out of this thing? How do you want to authentically express yourself, regardless of if somebody's going to the the question becomes, why are you doing it? Are you doing it to authentically express or are you doing it to convert sales? Right. And and one of those has a very clear proof point. both of them do technically, but authentic expression has no required input that comes back in from it. It's just this is my expression. I and I kind of think of it almost as the larger the company you go in go you're part of, the larger the time frame that you're working in. And so What what how like what I'm thinking about is like my wife works at Disney and Disney is not thinking about yes, they're thinking about like what next quarter looks like and like maybe like what next year is, but they're also talking five, ten years and they're trying to anticipate where things are going and making strategic decisions to ultimately get them to a much longer longer view. Right. And it's like what decisions can we make today that is ultimately gonna set us up for ten years from now? And again. And I I think there's a lot of people who make those kinds of decisions. And that definitely goes to especially like the it's a different game when you become a publicly traded brand. Mm-hmm. now you have shareholders and so lots of decisions are made based on your ability to report next quarter a positive change in your financials because that's what drives market value. It's very interesting in banking. We do risk assessments. So like bank regulators do risk assessments, and there's one that's called a camels plus risk assessment. Mm-hmm. And it's an acronym, right? Like capital asset management. But the plus is the interesting part. The plus is reputation. Because reputation risk is one of the most serious risks that you can have in the financial world. And if you just look at the numbers and you don't think about reputation, you are really getting yourself into a dangerous place. And if you just replace reputation with brand, then sure. Sure. You you quickly go, that's how important brand is. Yeah. Because if your reput if Disney's reputation is damaged, which we've seen happen over the years, they see massive impacts to the company's valuation, to the way people engage with them. And then because their moat is so deep, they make adjustments and over time they creep back into it. But there can be like di reputation risks that obliterate a company. And So that comes back to why it's important how you express your brand and how you build that trust over time. Yeah. and the more you the more you build that trust, the more likely that people are to stay with you. So I I I I know you talk a lot about Elon Musk in terms of like the business practices that he he uses and from like the success one from an entrepreneurial standpoint. And so there's two things that are currently happening in the news right now that I think are really interesting. when it comes to brand. One is the roadster event, right? It was supposed to be October first and essentially it's been delayed two weeks, but it's pivotal and it's you could probably articulate it better than I can, but from my understanding, it was they were planning this event on October first and to release the roadster, big deal. Well, they've unfortunately had to delay the entire event because of FAA res regulations of you're not able to fly under 10,000 feet. And so all of us are saying, What? Like what excuse me, what do you mean? Like you're you're releasing a car, but why is FAA having to be involved? And it becomes this whole conversation point as to is he about to release some sort of a flying car? And it builds this hype that we did not have before. Right. And I think another really important piece that Elon said was like we had to invite so many people to this event because when people will see videos online, they're not gonna think it's real. You're gonna think it's AI. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I I'm really curious to like hear your take on that from like a branding standpoint and like what the other pieces of it that I might we might not be seeing. So I think that th this is not going to be a high volume selling car, right? Purely, I'm guessing just from price point and style and all that other stuff. But it's a it's a great hype machine. Right. Especially if they could do what they're saying he's doing, which is, you know, having actual space X X rockets on it, zero to sixty in under a second, and potentially some sort of like back to the future pop up float or something like that. Right. I mean, the guy they built massive rockets that can fly to space, actually, just just a starship just orbited and sent out V three satellites, and they can land that back reusable. Yeah. Okay, they're gonna be okay with figuring out what to do with the car. Yeah. So yeah, I think it'll be interesting. I think it'll be probably a little gimmicky, but that's the unpredictable thing about Elon is that he does a bunch of gimmicky stuff. Right. Like when he named the cars and the models, it was like S XY, right? It was like you know, or like, you know, on your Tesla, you can say open butthole and it opens the charging port or you know it can you could put a whoopee cushion on people's seats in the car there's stuff that like it's pointless right you go what's the value there but it tells you how he thinks yes right and you're like for me I remember getting it I was like this is I I I've I've had a bunch of different cars I like cars this was the first car that was it was fast fast as n fast as a commodity but it was fun yes there was a lot of fun to it and so it was like fast Fun, hyper technology. this is the this is the brand. excellence, right? Like relentless excellence on on execution, but also a willingness to just try stuff and and fail along the way. So what's the brand? The brand is we can solve really complex problems and we can have fun doing it. And I'm like, cool, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We I want to be a part of that. I'll I'll buy into something like that. So like goes back to that importance of brand. So then when you come out with a hype thing, it's like he also knows that there's hype. He knows what a flying car p potentially can do from just a hype perspective to drive more eyeballs to the other stuff that he's doing that's way more interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I and I even think something you mentioned with the Tesla was the importance, every touch point that you have with a customer as a company falls under this umbrella of brand. And so I think of like, hey, open the butthole and It is the charging point. And at certain point, someone made a conscious decision, right? To do that. But what does it communicate? It's playful, it's fun. It's like the or like Joe Mode, right? Yes. Which by the way, still not low enough. So there was a guy named Joe who who basically messaged Elon on Twitter because the alert when you're like getting off path was very annoying and loud. And he said, We'll change it. And so he changed it and they called it Joe Mode for that guy, Joe. But just if anybody's listening from Tesla, the sound is still too loud. Even on Joe Mode, the alert is terrifying. So that should be fixed. But that playful interaction is d these are all decisions you have to make along the way. Yes, totally. And it's keeping the customer in mind. That's my take on it. It's yes, there was an internal decision, but it was designed for the customer. Joe mode is Completely aligned. And that's where like the Bezos of the world are you know, for me, like He's definitely somebody who I think is legendary when it comes to the the customer side of things, the obsession with the customer. Now, do I believe his outputs are as good as somebody like Elon or others? No, I don't, right? Like the Amazon app is terrible. Everything about it's hard. Maybe that's intentional. I'm assuming they thought a lot about it, but his obsession is with the customer. And from the beginning, it was with the c what do people want? What do people want? What do people want? And that obsession with the customer became the brand. Yes. So the brand, the but the actual logo and everything else, it was nothing, right? It was like a spray painted Amazon thing over his desk that everybody's seen a picture of. But what the brand became was a reputation for obsessing over getting the the customer what they want, which is stuff fast and cheap and for with free shipping. Yeah. Yeah. The second thing I really wanted to touch on, and this was more of I think in the past 24 hours, is I know Delta refused to add Starlink to the to their flights. They're basically going with the Amazon competitor instead of using Starlink. Right. Are you familiar with this story? yeah. yeah. All right. And I think something that is was such a great move was that United reached out and basically put out a form and agreed to have a status swap. And so there's people who have flown three million miles who are now switching over to be a part of United after having three million miles with Delta. And I'm like, that is such a bold decision. Yeah. And also from a branding standpoint, for Starlink and Delta and United, all communicate something, right? Because they made this some sort of a decision to to participate in some kind of way. And it's now having ramifications on a lot of different fronts. I want to hear your thoughts on it. Well, I think this just goes to what I would say is the power of a brand. So And what I mean by that is also the realization of the lack of a power of a brand. So like Delta would never be on anyone's list for a world class brand. Why did these people switch airlines? Do you believe it's because they're so in love with the brand of Starlink? Or did they do it because they want internet in the sky that they can rely on so they can work while they fly? Correct. Second. So the brand didn't matter. It actually is a proof point that a brand without a delivered promise is irrelevant. So you have to you still having a great product is still required and it always will be. And so I think what that tells you is that, for example, Starlink doesn't really have a brand. Okay. It just it's basically SpaceX, right? It's like the same, same brand. They haven't Done a bunch of choices on this or that and low and maybe there's some, but it's essentially black and white and the Starlink logo. Yeah. Because I guarantee you. I mean, I don't know this on first principles. Okay. But Elon's like, who cares? Like, keep it simple. Like make it like that. Yeah. let's just make sure that the thing is amazing. Cause all what I'm gonna focus my energy on is building this crazy difficult problem of, you know. Hundreds of thousands of low Earth orbit satellites in the sky that can deliver internet because that's what people actually care about. Yeah. Cause so then I go to like SpaceX and I think that there's let's let's hit on a branding move that they made just recently. Okay. And I think something that they absolutely crushed on was the decision to make these almost mini documentaries for their launches. Yeah. For all of their big products to essentially Right. Tell a story of where it's failing, how hard this problem is to solve. And then seeing the success and seeing the failures along the way. And it makes it such a human moment and it brings you into the inside of a very complicated problem. And man, those customers, the reason they love it so much is because it's like the fellow nerds who are obsessed about what's going on and want to see like what they're cooking and want to see when it works and wants to see when it doesn't. Yeah, but those are like your super fans, essentially, right? So like I just recently watched that. It was like a, I don't know, let's call it like a 28 minute video on them going and recovering Starship from the ocean, right? And like it's so amazing, right? Not only is it there, but they're actually building this thing on the way. And it's like just you know what it one of the terms they use at SpaceX, which I love, is that they're scrappy. Yeah. Like we're gonna get really scrappy. They're not gonna over bloat things, they're not gonna overthink things, they're going to go and they're gonna solve problems and they're gonna build things along the way and I love that. But like Grandma using Starlink living in the middle of North Idaho, or you know, the the boomer who's, you know, listening to this who was able to move to their dream home because they right, like now that they don't they're probably not gonna watch that video. Mm-hmm. Sure. Totally. All they want is the the outputs. So I I I believe that that kind of thing for you, it's a great example of an investment in what you believe is important. Yeah. Right. So they believe that sharing that story is important. It there is no likely direct output showing that it's generating revenue for them. We fully agree. Yep. So it's just a selfish choice. So it's just a selfish it's selfish choice. I don't think it's vanity. I think it's a selfish choice on an opinion. It's an opinion to say stories matter and we're gonna share it. So then I I hear what you're saying in it. And I think I am reminded of Kevin Kelly's 1000 True Fans essay. Essentially the philosophy of it is if you have a thousand true fans who will buy everything that you put out, right? Like you can have a career doing whatever you want. I fully agree with that. That's why you see those like YouTube channels with, you know, 10,000 followers that do way more from a call it converting to revenue generation at than people who have million 10 million followers. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure even for you at this point, like having posted online for, you know, over a year, you've built up to thousand true fans. Like there I don't know. I have no idea. I haven't measured it. you know I would say the only first principles proof point would be like pre orders of books. People who've joined the community. So yeah, I guess I would say you you do have your your thousand plus people that because I I found it fascinating when somebody said they would spend thirty-three dollars to buy my book before I really had it done and ready to go out. I mean, it was like a year. And it's like that is that communicates trust, which then for me just made it even more important, right? That I'm like Not that it wasn't before, but I'm like, this is this is amazing. Like I I don't take that kind of stewardship lightly. So I'm like, well, I'm I gotta deliver more value for them than the than they than they asked for. A lot of people focus on their detractors, and that's a problem. They're like trying to convince people that their brand is is good. Hey, these people who are telling you that they don't like you, they're like, How do we make them like us? Instead of focusing on your Promoters, people who are raving fans. They're raving fans. Why are they raving fans? Let them tell their story. And then that will attract other raving fans. And that's why I think I I do think that great marketing is other people telling your story, not you. Sure. So I I and it's not an either or, but I do think there's so much more power in having somebody else say, like, okay, this is my experience with this thing. People are going to trust that more than like. Me selling my thing. And I think there's a lot of people who Who are looking to advertise and not to brand. It was like at the suspension company, like we spent a bunch of time and money flying around building a YouTube series called the Journey Better series, where we told other people's stories. And it wasn't selling our product. It was like a documentary on Winnebago or a documentary on Coachman or a documentary on Tiffin. Yeah. or a documentary on Lightning E Motors. Like, and it's just on their company. Mm-hmm. There's no that was a the strategic choice to say, I think it's important for other people to hear stories from someone else, not about our product, but just generally about their story. And that's just an investment. And what we're saying is, I'm willing to invest in telling stories. Because story is important to me. The journey is important to me. So then I I think of those videos that you made. And some of those videos that you created ended up creating a new client and developing a new relationship and bringing in additional revenue, correct? I'm I mean, yes, there's at least one that I can think of that was like a direct attribution. Yeah. Which becomes a whole different conversation on what we call marketing attribution and using UTMs and using like things to tag and understand where something came from and how it got there. And you know, the in in corporate marketing, that's how you decide how to spend your dollars. You go, what were all the revenue What's the revenue that we got in? What was the attribution? Meaning what can I attribute to that this came from? It came from this place, this place, or this place. And they do that very scientifically, right? It's like Google Analytics. There's a lot of data behind it. Yeah. and then they go, cool, we're gonna pour more pour more money into that. Yeah. There are other things though where it's like, like I'm not even tracking attribution. I'm not even looking at conversion of sales because I simply see this as an investment in. sharing with people the way we think. And that's like content making. Making content is just another opportunity for me to share with people something about the way you think. And then that, you know, is like it's like making small deposits over time into your investment account. Man, okay. There's two there's two stories that I can think of in in my time making content for some of these big brands. the first one was Amazon. And the con the the concept of the videos that we were making was this whole campaign talking about how the minimum wage at Amazon is $15 an hour. And I think you have to use second and third order thinking to be like, why are they doing that? Like why is why are they promoting their minimum wage? And you realize the game that they're playing is a game that is so much bigger than what you thought it was. To where they're it's Two twofold. One lobbying to raise minimum wage because the mom and pop shops can't compete with those prices. Why would I go work for, you know, nine dollars an hour when I could go work at Amazon for 15? And like I could do that day one. I don't even have to start. Right. So then it becomes this this competition to essentially take out the mom and pop shops. And two, it became this recruiting effort to say, hey, we We start at $15 an hour. And so you should come work for us first. And where do they have the biggest concentration risk? What what is the greatest limiter to their ability to scale human capital? Yeah, totally. Totally. And so I was like, my goodness. Like that was one of the first ones that I realized is like they are playing it a just a different game altogether. This the second one that comes to mind. And this is more by the way, that goes back to Bezos. Like if you read shareholder letters and stuff, it's like you think in decades. Yes. We're we're thinking in decades. We're not thinking in quarters. Totally, man. The second one I'll keep anonymous, but there was a commercial that I made and $500,000 budget. We broke it down and essentially they wanted to do big commercial, they wanted to do UGC content, they wanted to do photography with it. And so I like, you know, we draft up the budget. Here you go. Well, let's make this. And what was missing was they had three different agencies that were a part of this whole process. A social team like for RFPs for for a request for proposal, they had multiples. Or there was three different agencies just as a part of the project. As a part of the project, right? So they had a paid media team, they had a their agency of record, and then they had like a social team, right? And and so The agency of record and the paid media team had to collaborate on this together. And the social team had like was putting their input in. Okay. And what was fascinating is when I made the budget, it was about 97% going to the actual commercial spot, with maybe 2% going to photography, 1% going to the UGC ads. Like that, that's how like my like the budget in terms of how we're gonna execute this played out. When we looked at the strategy of their paid media strategy, it was 80% going to the UGC styled content and then 20% going to splitting between exactly. And so when I look at that, I'm like, how did you get to that point? Like what was the decision? What were the conversations behind closed doors to old because we're gonna about to make this thing and If we were all on the same page, instead of this being a two day shoot, we would make this like a 10 day shoot and make hundreds of UGC ads for you to run an A B test. And instead it became this backwards, okay, we're doing this. Maybe it is for self indulgent purposes, not necessarily from a care about ROI. And I'm like, that's so backwards. And so we were talking about corporate America in this conversation because that was that was a Fortune 500 brand. that that and I was just blown away of like the poor stewardship in that moment. And and so when you get to a big leagues like that, how does that kind of stuff happen? It happens through a lot of conversations and there's a lot more people involved than most people would want. and I think that just like the application of multi-order thinking with Amazon, you have to apply the same thing there. There are so many other things at play with large companies in how they make decisions, right? Like, like you don't know that they're about to do a company riff and lay off 10% of their people. You don't know that there was something happening in HR with the former leader of this group and they're actually going to come out. You don't know that there's a consolidation of three different departments that's about to happen and these people are shifting. So there's so many secondary and tertiary things happening in a larger company like that that eventually gets down into how decisions are made. I mean, what what I saw is you would see some decisions made that felt like, man, that was that was really good. It went through a lot of really good process and thinking. And then you got others where it was like, We just need to get this done. Move on, make the decision, go. So I think that it's sometimes more complicated than you think and other times a lot less complicated than you think. Somebody just didn't know what they were doing. Somebody made a decision and they handed it to somebody who didn't know how to execute it. Somebody made a bet. They thought, you know, this budget should be spent here, but they just didn't know because they just came into the role and they had a lot to prove because they came from doing a lot of successful production or a lot of successful UGC. So they said, We've got to spend the budget here. This is where it's going to be great. And they roll the dice there because they've got, you know, a point to prove. So there's like a lot of I would say the the bigger the company, the more complications in the spider web of decisions. Hmm. I I think about it too. There was you know, a a CMO for a brand who had never worked in marketing before and came in basically always on the production and logistics side of things and got put into this role. And I think about that I'm like, that seems like a really bad decision. And And I think that that those effects were felt along the way because someone was put in a situation to where they were not responsible, but at the same time that they're the client. Yeah. And we have to hear them out and we have to not treat them like they don't know what they're doing. Yep. Well, and I think I think that can that can be, but that's also situational, right? Like I have hired, have have been personally in a bunch of situations. And hired people into situations they had no idea what they were doing. They had they knew nothing about whatever the subject was. And that could be a superpower if you have humility and curiosity. Sure. But it can be an absolute liability if you are prideful and arrogant. Yeah. Because then it's like you you just come in and you're trying to steamroll, but you have no idea what you're doing or what you're talking about, but you think you do, right? It's like this this false sense of confidence, you know, it's like, Man, no, you shouldn't be confident about what you just said because that's that's really that that's that was bad. versus somebody being like, Okay, I've never done this before. How does this work? Yeah. And I think there there comes a lot of like the pride part of leadership, I think, for anybody, which is people don't want to be curious because they think that that curiosity and humility somehow says that they're less valuable. And It just it's the opposite. Like the reason it w it works to be curious and humble is because it's what Jesus modeled for us. Yeah. And I think like being authentic means like walking in and being like I don't know anything about production. it sometimes you have to remind people too, like, dude, you're in a position for a reason. I've had to remind people for that. Like you're in this position because of a lot of things. Yeah. That's not going change if you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. If you walk in and go, hey, I don't know how this works. Can you tell me? You still ultimately get to make the call on what to do with this, but don't you want to do it with good information? Don't you want to do it with like learning? And I'm I'm thinking back through our conversation from a branding standpoint and trying to find the common ground to where we both see eye to eye. And we already wait, we already got at least one. We said we both believe that. Intent there's intention. Intention, yes. I I think intention is like one of the the biggest points that every single and I would go for like I'd think there's another common point, like touch point. Like every single touch point has to be taken into consideration, right? With good branding. And so whether that's and it's a constant improvement, like there's no arrival on that either. I don't think there's an arrival on on the output of your branding and the experience. It's just a constant improvement. Yes, yes. Yeah, there is no we have achieved this. It is much more of a process that continues to evolve. yeah, like the second you you're like, we've got it figured out and everything's perfect for everybody, is the second your company starts dying. So continuous improvement, kind of the the kaizon approach is is it's required for good stewardship. Yes. I think another point that we can agree on is no matter how good the branding is, if the product and the service is bad. Does not matter. Hundred percent agree on that. Yeah. Although, although I'll I'm gonna I know that we found a common ground, but I'm gonna give just one caveat because I think you'll agree. Okay. You can use psychological tactics to convince somebody to buy a bad product. absolutely. It happens all and that happens all the time. All the time. Yes. So you technically can use all of those Branding plays of trust and psychology and how decision making works to convince somebody to give you money for something that's not that valuable. and so that's probably why I'm I'm I have some of that hesitant sort of bun towards some of that, because it feels too manipulative to me. I could totally see that. So yeah, I guess maybe the question I had is, and I'm curious if we agree on this one or not. Okay. To me, branding is not. Nearly as much of a conscious thing as it is a subconscious thing. I completely agree with that. The meaning the experience of the customers, the the brand experience for the customer is something that is subconscious, majority subconscious. Correct. Completely agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Completely agree with that. and so I I know that we're agreeing on all kinds of things. We are still started out way more spicy than I thought it was gonna end. I thought we were gonna not dis not agree on a bunch of stuff. No, I think we gotta at least find the common ground. Because for me, the the the thing is like I don't wanna be manipulated. Yes. So when someone is mincing their words with me, or if someone is not really sharing something, I have a really good people reading indicator. So I I feel that. I my limbic brain, right, sees that, feels that, sniffs it. And then depending on the situation, I will press them to get a more authentic response. And sometimes that can be like overbearing and like like, okay, just I don't want to be that authentic with you right now. And it creates an opposite effect. So having the the you know, I I'm I'm I'm married to a very relational. Amazing woman. And so like when I when I get healthy and look good and it's I move toward looking more like her. I'm more relational. So I'm still able to share the truth, but it comes from a place of you know care. So the back to the branding though, I think part of that is like because I don't want to be manipulated and I don't I don't want other people to be manipulated either. And so then when I'm like, how do I design a brand? I'm not like, how do I get people to like this? It's more like how do I authentically express myself? And then like people will be able to experience it and they will decide if that resonates with them or not. And I'm okay with that. Cause the here here it is, you know. and when when when you start going down the path of like, well, this can do this and can make them subconsciously feel this, then I'm like, you know, so and I don't think it's an either or because there's there's a lot of beautiful ways you can make people feel loved. Yeah. And cared for. Maybe you you could make the argument that doing those things is actually an intentional act of love to have them feel something subconsciously. Yeah. So that's where I think we probably have common ground too, is coming back to the intentional side of it. Yeah. I think there's whether or not you apply some of these things or you just quote do it. I I the only argument that we have is for me, I said yes, it's selfish, but it's not, it's not selfish. It's just authentic. It's an authentic expression. Yes. that is that is about. express it because I can only express my opinion. and then other people get to you know share theirs along the way. Yeah. And so is is the heart behind it coming from like a a protective mentality? Yeah. Okay. So I'm hyper protective of people, especially anybody who is I feel like in a position where where people are trying to lord their power over them or people are trying to use them. Or yeah, I'm hyper protective. That's why I'm so loyal. Like There's not a it takes a lot to become like call it like my people, but once somebody's my people, you have to rip cord out because I'm here. and I think that I don't like to see people taken advantage of ever. And I will that's when I become aggressive. So okay, coming into the branding conversation now is how are you supposed to compete with pee if we agree that branding is going to be made on a subconscious level, right? And I also hear you where you're you are ultra protective of people and do don't want to manipulate them at all. How how how do you compete with companies who think who don't agree with that same philosophy and are going to use psychological practices to get someone to buy something? I'm not in competition with anybody. I am in competition with You know, the thing about that is when you when you think you're competing with other people, you also start comparing yourself to other people. And there's there's really like you you're one of one. God made you you. There's no one else like you. So what I am competing with genuinely is me yesterday. I'm trying to be a better version, a better steward than I was yesterday. And so How the outcome plays out is really not that's not my problem. I don't handle the outcomes. So I will authentically plant and water and then God will handle the outcomes. So then I something we've talked about before is how a lot of times a biblical business could be one of two things. Either a a business where you would never know it wasn't actually run by a a Christian and based on their behavior, but might be a successful company, or a company to where, hey, yeah, this is like this guy is a Christian and you can kind of tell because the work has become subpar. Yeah. And I think a cool part of the conversations we're having is we're trying to figure out, hey, how do we have unbelievable products and still lead in a biblically based direction? And so to me, I go to the fact of I I totally respect the perspective the perspective and attitude of I want to protect those who might not be able to protect themselves. And especially we don't I don't want to manipulate those. into to doing something that they don't want to do. And then my question also becomes and so how can we use the best practices that all these other companies are going to be using to to have a great business and to drive revenue, but not necessarily use the same tactics that they're using. Yeah, I think one, it's by delivering unequal value. And delivering things that people want on the product side. So like you just you have to deliver there. And and that goes back to I'll just go back to Amazon because it's it's the one that we talked about earlier. Like they didn't use any of those ta the tactics they used was to obsess over what the customers wanted and to deliver a superior experience when it came to what they wanted. And then over time, the brand develops. And so I think that's that relay race that I kind of made reference to. I think when a company's early stages, especially smaller, you're kind of at the earliest stages of that, like we need to provide the value. I think as you get bigger and bigger, you can still employ those tactics, quote, but ask yourself if it's coming from an authentic place, because authenticity is still required. So if you're let's just get practical. If you're saying should we employ a tactic where we can get people's attention quickly, the question that I was always I would always ask is to what end and for what purpose? So for example, if you're leading a biblical business, the growth of that business and Jesus' name becoming more known should be completely correlated. That is success. Okay. So Like, hey, I make videos and I focus on the hook. Mm-hmm. That would you consider that a worldly tactic? Absolutely not. Jesus was using hooks before anybody thought it was cool. Okay. Look at the birds of the air and you're like, Where's this going? Sure. These ideas are not like a lot of them are not the world's tactics per se. And I don't think thoughtfulness and intention in design is a bad thing, so long as it's not Inauthentic. and so I think as you bring people around, it's kind of like what we're talking about, hey, how do we brand for how do we brand? do we do a different brand for the biblical business podcasts? And it's like, yeah, I want you to bring your authentic self to it so that Challant and your company like has that that throughput. And I also want my authentic self there. So then you go, Well, it's not it doesn't have to be an either or. Where you start going down an either or that's where it becomes like a Well, now now we're moving away from a desire to have authentic expression and moving more toward just simply a decision. Okay. So then this comes back to I think a disagreement is like I I agree with what you said. I think the point what which I like disagreed was bringing authentic self, right? It's like w if I want to bring an authentic self to the biblical business brand, right? Yeah, how do we design that? Well, also meeting in the middle to be able to have the intersection to where you're also being bring your authentic self. And in my mind, it's it's not about me. Like what it is is okay, what are we talking about? My mind, we're talking about the gospel and we're talking about business. And I think we're talking about this intersection of how do we do something worldly? Yeah. But have a completely different lens to view this through. Yeah. Like that that to me is what we're talking and that has nothing to prove. So what's the proof that you're doing that in the way that the logo and colors are designed? I could see it in a lot of things. What's proof that you're not doing it? I think it I think it becomes to the intention behind it, which then but brings to a full circle. I feel like we're changing our tail. Yeah, intentions aren't execution. So in the execution, what's the proof that you are achieving what you just said you you want to achieve? I would say that, okay, is the is the is the creative that decision that we have made backed by some sort of intention that goes back to how do we combine a business worldly perspective with a a Jesus filtered one. And how do we where's the intersection between those two things? Yeah. So then you go, okay, great. Your intention of using a certain color isn't right or wrong. So my intention, so for example, black, white, and green, these are earth tones. These express depth, these express the creation, these also express asymmetry in the asymmetry of Jesus, who expresses the ultimate humility in God becoming man. Mm-hmm. Right. So there's a there's a deep expression in that design of the gospel. So the intention is to express the gospel through that. And then just the simple name is like we're going to let that live on its own. Biblical business. Two different colors, because one is on top, which tells you that one is more important than the other. It's not business biblical, it's biblical business. So the expression is there. The intention, you could argue. is the same. So then you go, well, my intention to have like prayer hands or blue is to express this kind of feeling about the gospel. Your proof point becomes the same if it's just intention. Yeah. The execution is just an opinion. I think that we will literally find ourselves in a circle and I think it becomes almost a judgment thing at a certain Because that that's right. Be the circle comes right back to the beginning, which is this is simply a decision on authentic expression. And it's a brand is irrelevant on the output of the execution, in the sense that it just is what it is, because somebody decided somebody decided for it to be that way. So I don't know if I would agree on the authentic expression part of it though. Okay. Because authentic expression of of who and I think for some of these massive brands of someone. Of someone. Of someone. I think of Amazon. I think of that commercial I made for them, right? That decision was a branding decision that they made. And you're talking about the creation of a brand versus the promotion of a brand. So that you're talking about a brand that had been established for years that never really had a brand. Their brand was the name of the company in Amazon.com and they sold books. There was no there's no real brand or logo. Okay, sure, sure. I could I could get to where get to where you're talking about now. So then I try to take things to to first principles, right? And ultimately for the person we're making this. For the person listening to it. Yeah. Like w this is not for ourselves. How do you come up with your own brand? How do you decide on what to do for your company? Does it matter? Why does it matter? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I think I'm gonna toss out another hypothesis that I'm gonna think we are gonna agree on. Okay. Okay. I think we're gonna agree on the fact of if you do good work, more work will come. And if you do good work and talk about the good work you're doing. Even more work will come from that. 100%. And so we agree. Yeah. And and the perception of the genius of your brand will be correlated with the success of your product. Can you elaborate? I'm sorry, is the Nike swoosh that good? Why do you first principles, why is that good? There there's a lot of different ways I could take this. Don't take it on the brand, take it just on the logo. It's a black logo that's a swoosh. Why is it good? I think it symbolizes movement. I think it's still simple. I think on a shoe it has a It has a balance. I think it's not overly complicated. I think it has a lot of different applications for it. It's versatile. I think if most people saw the Nike swoosh, which they probably did, which is why they only paid her $35 or whatever, they would just go, it's whatever. If you use today's measure of what a valuable brand and logo creation is, I would not have been on the mood board. Because at some point they'd be looking at this mood board, and they did at some point. And went that one. No colors, no, no, you know, sub, nothing. Just the literal mark. Right? And it's like, okay. The delivery on the brand over time has made that swoosh more valuable than almost anything else. So I think of your brand mode. I think something that you keep talking about is that that as AI increases, that trust is going to become more important. Yes. And I think that the importance of having a strong brand is to be conscientious of AI how AI designs and creates and works opposite to that. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. and I would say did Nike swoosh was Nike swoosh responsible for the trust created with customers? No. In any way. No, a great product was. So by your own admission, a logo had nothing to do with trust. I I ag I agree with it. I I I do agree with that. And trust is the moat. And trust is the moat. And so I I think the at the end of that day for them it's simply just an opinion about where we're gonna start, how we're gonna do this, what we're gonna use, yeah, what's the mark gonna be, and then they start building everything past that. I so I think there's gonna be points where we agree that brands important and we agree that. Like we could start or stop right there. We agree that brand is important. We agree that brand's important. Yep. Right. Whether and there's a lot of intention is important. Yes. We we agree that trust is really important. We agree that trust is communicated at every touch point with a customer or with a client or a prospect. A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think that there's time we we can agree that some of these creative decisions are going to be subjective. Yeah. Like you could pull any book off of your shelf right now, hold up the cover and go, is this a good cover? Yeah. Yeah. And there would be a bunch of different answers. Totally. Yeah. And I and I we can also agree. And then somebody would come behind you and go, but hold on though. Right. Hold on though. The psychology is that that font communicates this kind of whatever. And that that italicizing of it actually creates a movement in the word. And then the overlapping of it does this. And you're like, Well, yeah, like, okay. Yeah. But but the other thing we agree on is that there's a a lot of what or most of what brand is is subconscious, is subconscious communication. Yeah, we do agree. We do agree on that. And w I think we also agree that brand is subservient to product. Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah. a hundred percent. And if you have a great product that you can have you can have a bad product with a with a good brand and s and sell it. Yes. But if you have a great product, then you can build a great brand pretty easily. Yes. Yeah. Fully agree with that. So so then my question as we're kind of wrapping things up is I have some thoughts and ideas of what's going to be super important of in this next era as we try to build this brand moat and we are conscientious of and aware of AI. Yeah and how to utilize it, how to not utilize it, and what does it mean from a branding standpoint when the commodity becomes the technology itself? If anyone can go into Chat GPT and type the same prompt, what's going to be different from their output? Yep. Right. I my theories are events are going to become super important. In-person events is going to be so different. I think when someone zigs, you have to zag. And I think when it becomes really easy. To suddenly post a ton of things online, right? Then it's like, okay, what's hard? Like actually flying out to a specific location, getting a hotel and showing up to an event that you might not know anybody, that's hard. Yep. And so how do you make that epic? And how do you make that inviting? How do you make that warm and welcoming? I think that there's a part of showing the process to where you can, if you pull back the curtain a little bit and show how something was made, I think that begins to help articulate. And so you're not just hey, I threw this into Chat GPT and it spit out this, right? You show instead, no, this was like developed by hand. This was like a whole process. Yeah, we made we made two different videos. One was called Made by Hand and another one I can't remember what the other one was called, but it was it was the behind the scenes of how the sumo springs microcellular polyurethane foam was spring was made and how the steel helper springs were made. It was basically how it's made videos. Yeah. And it was made in the USA, right? And it was like hand cut. It was the expression was how do we show people the value here that this isn't just some mass produced product and that it's made by people and that yeah. Now that was but that was also, you know, s eight years ago or something, right? So but I don't think that stuff I I agree with you, I don't think that stuff goes out of style. I think giving people view into the process, documenting the process is super valuable. Yes, yes. I think I think in addition to that, zigging when everyone else is zagging. Anyone could send a cold email at this point, right? And they do. And they do. Yeah, and they do. But what's hard is to send a handwritten letter. And I'm I'm really curious to see what happens with that concept over the next few years. Yep. And then I think also the intersection when it comes to technology is I'm not saying that AI should not be a part of the marketing plan or even the creation of the brand. What I'm saying is there has to be an intentional decision behind it. And in particular, my philosophy is that from a front-end standpoint, what the customer is going experience, that should be very much a human touch point. That should be very thought through and that should be cultivated. From a back-end standpoint, I think that you could use a ton of AI to create volume. And so I think of like SEO, A AEO, GEO. I think those things, it's like you can really optimize the back end of it with AI, right? But then make sure that there's some polish from a human at the end of it to make sure that it feels superior. And you could iterate on that example on, you know, thousands of different things. But I think that philosophy is going to continue to stay true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think at the for all of this, you just have to look at what the distribution rails are. What are the railroads? What the roads? Right. Right now it's it's essentially social media is the main railroad. And so hitting those distribution channels and figuring out new ways to share. I mean, there's obviously like even with content, right? There's a lot of people who are trying this whole non edited stuff and you know, car talk. They're all just trying different ways. They're they're sh maybe sharing more about their personal life because they're trying to humanize themselves. there there's I I think the Constant will be applying a hyper those with the fastest feedback loop, the ability to experiment, learn, analyze the results, yeah, make adjustments and then try new things and keep that loop really fast. They will be the ones who grow exponentially. And that's when right all the way back to the Teslas and the SpaceXs, they have hyper fast feedback loops. They just try stuff. That's why that's what's being scrappy is really. Being scrappy is like, I'm just gonna try stuff. I don't have all the stuff. I'm going to try it. We just watched Apollo 13 over the weekend. And one of the best parts of the movie is when they're like, we need to solve this this air oxygen issue. And here's what we have. And they basically dump on the table everything that they have in the command service module, and they're like, figure it, we gotta get this round thing to go through this square thing, and this is what we have. And they just constraint breeds creativity. And so I think. they then just start trying stuff, which is essentially applying a very hyper fast feedback loop. and they had to be fast because lives were at stake. And so I think in in this era of really fast moving technology, your ability to get through that loop fast, it will be directly correlated with your ability to keep up. Yeah. Yeah. I love that's so so true. I I wanna hear yours, your takes if there's like any predictions in terms of what's worth actually doing from a marketing standpoint. The last one I thought of because I had events, I had show process, I had handwritten, I show front end versus back end and when to use AI. My last one is founder led content. And and my comparison in that would be how many followers does you know Tesla have versus Elon Musk? You know, Tim Cook versus Apple. You can, you know, continue to go. And I think the further back you can pull, the more vulnerable you can be, the more you can show the process. Instead of just showing this really nice finished product, I think the more that's going to continue to compound. Yeah. And I think all of those, like when you think of Apple, actually a a lot of the quote brand was Steve Jobs. Mm-hmm. Right. So and why was that? And it was because what you got to see was back to the first thing we talked about, the way they think. Founder led content is about you seeing how they think and then deciding if you identify with that or not. Or just like watching it as a form of entertainment. Yeah, that's that's another I I you know, I think a lot of people are talking about the kind of in person stuff. I I completely agree with that. I think it's hard to fake. I do think there'll be kind of a a big push on analog versus digital. I think you'll have a lot of interest there, especially young people. I've I've recently been around like some of my kids around kids who have the same light phone as I do. Which is like a dumb phone. And I'm like, okay. So like s these kids really understand kind of the back to Apple nineteen eighty four. It's like that feels like the system. So how do I break the system and rebel a little bit? we're gonna we're just gonna meet and we're not gonna have our phones and we're just gonna write, we're gonna journal, we're gonna do things deep work style, right? Meaningful style. Because really, like I think my prediction is that people will become so dissuaded by the level of productivity that they will go back to the first thing that won't change, which is because there's nothing new under the sun, which is relationships. And I think that people will be more focused on spending time with people that they love, doing things that they enjoy. And I think that it will get easier and easier for you to leverage the tools that are out there to be able to do that. and I I do I am a I do believe that there's like this kind of big outputs that end up happening that make it so that you don't have to quote work so hard. I do think AI is gonna do that. But because of that, I think ideas will be the currency. I think that judgment, taste, and ideas will be the great separators. And that subjective take. is actually what protects your entire company. And so being willing to have a take and not bending the knee to what the rest of the world is doing is actually what what creates the real moat. That's what Apple did. They had a take that nobody thought, right? Microsoft was the killer. That's what that's I mean, listen, there's a there's a time you can see a Time magazine front cover that said, Will no Kia will it will the king ever get taken off its throne? And it was Nokia. Mm. Right. you can't go of BlackBerry. Like you can you can look at all of these things and go, they actually did the exact opposite of what the world told them would work really well. Same with Elon, same with reusable rockets, electric cars. These were not cool. These were not things that people said you should do. But guess what? Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. When you do great things, people go, Wow. Great ideas. So That all comes from having an opinion about something. And the risk of having an opinion is you're gonna be wrong. You could be wrong in the long term. So my prediction is more people will tap into what their opinions are about life. My my last thought, and we can even cut this if you want, is is there a first principles? Is there a Genesis principles law number one direction that we could approach this with? when it comes to branding for the biblical business podcast? The only first principles is is an opinion. So the the the outside of that, you would have to attach the proof to an output. Okay. So you would have to go, for example, right now. If you go, well, it's it's how many people you get to subscribe, it's how many views you get, it's how many this or that, you start to become a slave to that thing. and so on on branding first principles, it really just there is no such thing. It's only decisions. It's just decisions. And that's why, you know, it's like, cool. Here's what we do, here's what we do, then let's go. And like we're just making a decision. Yeah. I think the brand. for the podcast is the decision to ship and post multiple times, right? Two two times a week, and to talk about both the practical side of running a business and the coming from a biblical worldview and how do we apply those two things. That is the brand. And so then everything else that's around that is is just something we have to decide on. And there's no first principles to prove that somebody's right. Fun. Fun. Yeah. Because because, you know, if I told you, like for example, if you're like, well, that that this brand isn't very good, if next year that business is doing twenty million dollars a year and has millions and millions of followers, are you right or wrong? Sure. And you'd go, Well, I still think I'm right. Yeah. Yeah. So there's no there's no first principles proof on it unless you decide that there's some sort of marker, unless you say there's a marker that's going to say that this is true. Mm. Yeah, because I go to like the idea of like a click through rate, right? If you're like, but that's like, you know, I can get I can make stuff super clickbaity. Sure. Just get wild. We can get wild and do just make things really ominous and you know, do it like I'm not saying they they do it, but they definitely do it a lot of ways. Diary of a CEO. Sure. Like let's just and and so now the proof becomes that people clicked on it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like that's not proof of anything except for that you could get people to click. That doesn't mean you have a good brand. Yeah. Interesting. It's always fun. It's always fun to just strip it back down to first principles and at least ask that question. It's the best. And I I love I, you know, I'm glad that you keep bringing it up too, because you know, a lot of people think that's an Elon Musk thing. It's definitely not. It's like the Stoics. there's there's Aristotle. I mean, even before that, it's God's idea. but first principles is just asking the very basic questions. Yeah. Of like, what do you know to be objectively true? And man, business is so complicated that it's easy to get away from that. So it's a good thing to revisit. It's why it is the second law of the seven laws of leading a biblical business. Come on. Let's keep asking first principle questions then. That's it. Sweet, brother.