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18 | Living with the Hidden Grief of the Second Year Slump and Holiday Triggers · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Cassandra: Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: And I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra: And as licensed mental health counselors, we're unpacking the quiet complex griefs that don't come with a funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. We're so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode. It helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know that their grief is ⁓ Let's dive in. Cassandra: We talk about quiet losses on this show. And today we're looking at the grief felt when we have lived with a loss and have an impending holiday. Daiana, LMHC: Impending holidays can stir up so much within us. All of the experiences all mixed up together, even joy. Holidays can feel like an emotional haunted house where every ornament, song, empty chair glows like neon with memory. Cassandra: And some people might think that it's worse in the beginning, like that very first holiday is the worst holiday because it seems like that would be the very first time that you miss seeing this person. We just had Mother's Day pass. And I know that for a lot of people, especially now that their mothers have been gone for a number of years, it can bring up a lot of mixed emotions. But studies have found that that first holiday or even the first year, ⁓ you're still in the numb and shock phase. So you haven't even gotten to the level of anticipatory grief yet that a lot of people will get to eventually. In the first year, many people are still in this functional state of shock or emotional numbing, if you will. It's biological protective mechanism that can actually dampen the specific impact of a holiday. You don't really feel it because you feel so you don't feel that one thing. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I've heard that as well and how people are surprised that the second year feels worse. Sometimes referred to the second year slump ⁓ because it's frequently reported that in grief counseling that the second year can feel more difficult. By then the numbing has worn off a bit. You're more into your Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: life you found a new normal and that loss, that feeling of loss has fully set in and it makes the absence of that loved one or that former life feel more acute during milestones. those milestones are the ones that bring you back to those strong feelings that you did in the beginning. Cassandra: And I can imagine that this would often lead into like the anticipatory grief, which is something I kind of mentioned a minute ago, but it's almost dreading the holiday before it arrives. It's that emotional weather forecast that starts weeks before the holiday. Like, how am I supposed to survive Thanksgiving without this person? How am I supposed to make it through Mother's Day or Christmas or any of the things that these people used to do to help celebrate is gone now. It's anticipating the grief even before, or having the grief before the ⁓ the actual holiday itself. Daiana, LMHC: Right. And that can hit you at any time. When we were saying that, that these studies have shown that there's always outliers, right? So if a person passed away or something happened to you that changed your whole life and your identity at the beginning of the year, a days, a couple of months after you can start thinking about Christmas or the new year or about your yearly trip that you go with this person or with this group of people that you're not a part of anymore. So this anticipatory grief ⁓ ⁓ hard. Cassandra: And like you said, can be even like a group of people that you don't see anymore. We've talked in the past about what happens when fall apart. ⁓ We've talked in the past about chosen family, estrangement. We've talked about the loss of pets. We've talked about a lot of different of losses that can happen during these periods of time ⁓ that everything changes, everything shifts. And so the way that you're used to breathing, walking, talking is completely different. ⁓ fun story like Daiana and I for the last, I don't know, three seasons now, spent Thanksgiving together. I couldn't imagine not doing that. And sometimes things shift and sometimes things change and there's different reasons why we came together and there could be different reasons why we follow out of doing that tradition, but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't grieve that. Growing up, we used to go see my aunt every year for Thanksgiving. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: or for a lot of Thanksgivings. And when we stopped doing that, was grief involved. It wasn't like anything was lost, but even just the loss of that tradition was filled with grief. Daiana, LMHC: That's kind of the double-edged sword about traditions, And we are going through all of these types of grief, it is good to keep in mind that there will be grief, there is loss ⁓ of traditions, ⁓ and that you can create new ones, Like you like us getting together for started from creating a new tradition. that we've needed for our own reasons, but it became something new that we needed and we were open to it. A lot of times we close ourselves up because of the pain and we aren't open. And ⁓ in the moment you have no idea what a new tradition could even look like, And those are the moments that we have to zoom into ⁓ our ⁓ life, the who are with us and not the people who aren't or the things that aren't. no longer and look more to what is and then you see what you can work with. Cassandra: That's a really great point. I know that sometimes when I've been in a grief fog or grief brain, like I can't see that. We had one guest that said, you can't see the painting when you're inside of it. And that always makes me think of how it's very difficult to see what opportunities I actually have when I'm experiencing a large shift and I'm living in these grief moments. I'm living in even sometimes Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: this can fall under that disenfranchised grief. Because not only is it something that's big and important that's happening to me, but it could be grief that other people overlook or minimize. So like, ⁓ you know, why don't you just come to my house for Thanksgiving? Or why don't you just ⁓ write them letter? Or why don't you just X, Y, and Z? ⁓ And... Daiana, LMHC: It's that phrase right there, why do you just? That feels so invalidating. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. It absolutely is because it's an instant minimization of what the reality is. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I had a friend that asked me ⁓ few days ago, ⁓ are the benefits of being a therapist while you're ⁓ through grief? ⁓ ⁓ thought that was a great question. And then afterwards, I thought about it even ⁓ of how it pertains to our listeners, Because we have had feedback of, thank you for putting a name. for naming this, for defining this for me, defining my experience and giving it a name. for, and speaking for myself, what it has helped being a therapist is knowing that it's not always going to be this hard. Knowing that ⁓ get better and it's from hope, it's from faith, but it's also from science and from experience and knowledge and all of these things. So knowing that is not always going to be that hard has allowed me sit more in the grief and allow for it even though I wrestle with it every day. So what I am, ⁓ I was glad to hear that question and I thought that was such a funny and fun and like really pertinent ⁓ that made me realize as well or remember ⁓ Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that grief is involuntary. So I can have all the information, we can you with all this information. But for ⁓ us all to know that is involuntary, your body will still and that's okay. ⁓ And disenfranchised grief ⁓ may always be ⁓ to a certain disenfranchised because ⁓ no one truly is to know what your body... what your life, what your experience is. And you might feel isolated while everyone appears to be, ⁓ celebrating or social has all of these, ⁓ highlights people celebrating as they should, right? ⁓ And you may also feel on the outside of of it. Cassandra: And I think that's kind of a normal feeling to have, especially when looking at grief through ⁓ this lens. Because ⁓ as we move and as we allow ourselves to and to heal, also a little bit of like guilt that comes with that. And even ⁓ going into a joyful holiday and being willing to participate, still feeling ⁓ the grief of the loss of a loved one or the loss of a friend or the loss of anything that's significant to you, there can be that guilt wrapped up in that, which would also be a little bit confusing to someone who doesn't understand that you're still grieving. And grief can pop up. It is insidious. It will come at the most inopportune moments, at the most inopportune times, and will just smack you upside the head ⁓ like nothing else in your life ever could. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely, it sure does. going along with what you're saying, knowing this information helps in experiencing this disenfranchised grief helps to know this because when you are happy and you're laughing for a moment and then you realize that you are still grieving and still sad, that guilt can pop up. But now knowing that you can mourn, can grieve, you can experience this loss of a person, of an of a dream that you ⁓ are experiencing at the same time. ⁓ might flicker on and off and that experience ⁓ is normal, that this what grief looks like. It's not this misconception ⁓ I'm grieving or I have this loss. ⁓ So everything just goes to the wayside. We talked about in past episodes about that window, ⁓ ⁓ we can be in that window ⁓ of ⁓ hope. We can these linings. can, and we ⁓ are whether define it or not, experiencing both. But it's for us to feel that guilt or shame that we're doing something wrong. Cassandra: Feeling the two things at the same time though can cause what's called a cognitive dissonance, like where you have these two things that are real and valid and true at the same time, but don't make sense together. And ⁓ like you said, accepting that that's normal, accepting that this is just kind of how it can be sometimes is a really good step to releasing that dissonance because both these things can live true. in the same thought process, in the same brain, in the same experiences. but don't have to be the be-all end-all of either one. Daiana, LMHC: Right Absolutely. Cassandra: And we had talked a little bit in this episode about what happens when there's like an impending holiday or things along that line. And we can even feel grief around the holidays that'll never happen. And that might sound a little bit weird and it might sound a little bit like anticipatory grief, but it's different in the fact that we have these ideas and we have these thoughts about Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: ⁓ what Christmas is gonna look like, what... Hanukkah's gonna look like, what all these different holidays are gonna look like, and then suddenly it's gone. And that person's not gonna be there. That pet that loves snacks is not gonna be there. That friend that you thought would never go away is not gonna be there. And the grief that can surround that is... Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: incredibly overwhelming. Daiana, LMHC: When you had that conversation with Adam about pet loss, you both talked a lot about the habits, those habitual, those rituals, those parts of your day that are so ingrained Those walks with your pets or just you taking care of them. giving them their medicine at a certain time. And there is a lot of love there for your pets. There is a lot of love there for your friendships when you have these types of rituals and these routines, checking in on each other, those moments we just speaking about our quarterly. ⁓ get togethers It's like when we don't have those things, we notice it because our body becomes used to having these moments. So when you're, when you don't have that. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: It's really shocking and it really pulls the rug from underneath you. Cassandra: And we can combine that with like missing the person who made those things special. Missing the pet that made those things special, missing the reason for why we do those things. It can be a loss of identity. It can be the loss of the role that you or someone else played. And even losing that sort of stabilization can bring up all sorts of grief that we never even knew existed. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. The episode with Lee that we had recently about estrangement, she talked a lot about the holidays feeling like she was on high alert with the grief or where there is these moments of where do I fit in? Or some people might still have hope for reconciliation or, noticing that pain of the absence. ⁓ of this person, of the thing is always there regardless of the holiday and how the holiday just makes everything much more complicated and it brings up a lot of questions. Cassandra: It absolutely does. And it's very different in the beginning than it is a little bit further down the road. ⁓ Like that grief never really leaves you. It's always you. But in the beginning, it's a lot more acute. And I know you and I discussed that a little bit ⁓ in greater detail. And I'm hoping maybe you can our listeners ⁓ an idea of what the acute stage or the grief actually looks like. Daiana, LMHC: It is a lot of that questioning that we were just talking about. It's a lot of ⁓ nothing making sense. When we have these traditions, when we have these people in our life, when we have our ⁓ the of our world so set, we can walk around it with our eyes closed because we know it so well. When this very important part is missing, there is so much pain. that acute phase there's a lot of physical pain. We find ourselves exhausted without moving right you're just sitting there and you feel like you have been working out all day physically you feel like you've been hit by a car that your bones are all broken like there's this physical pain that happens right at the beginning there's a lot of confusion a lot of questioning. nothing really makes sense in the beginning and that can be very scary. Extremely scary because that map that you had that you can walk around with your eyes closed now you feel like you can't even move because you don't know what's in front of you. You don't what's around you and everything and anything does not feel right. So there is a lot of physical and emotional pain. And for us as therapists, I think that does help knowing what's happening because you're not afraid because you're, you're not afraid in the sense that you know what's happening. And this is why it's so important for us to have these conversations so that more people learn that, like you feel lost, you feel pain, you think you need to go to the hospital. because you're in so much pain, think there's something wrong, right? But there is something wrong. Your whole world has fallen apart. That map is gone and ⁓ everything is under construction. But for you and for us to know that we are okay and that this is unfortunately what the experience is like. Cassandra: And I think that differs a lot from the integrated grief because we want things to be simple. We want things to be fixed. We want to feel better right away. And as you were saying, it's just, it doesn't work like that. However, we do know that later on down the road, as time passes, most people, not everybody, but most people move more towards integrated grief where the losses assimilated into their daily lives and the baseline ⁓ of that pain that you were just talking about decreases. It doesn't happen for absolutely every person, but I can say having had some rather major losses in my life, that that has been my experience that over time, it instead of being like this forceful, intense, I should go to the hospital pain, it becomes more of a, a dull ache that the pain spikes from time to time. but it's not a constant for me or for others from what studies have shown us. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: ⁓ It's often in this later stage that holidays and anniversaries become ⁓ more noticeable. So get the grief of anniversary action and the ⁓ grief of reaction. ⁓ contrast to like the lower baseline that you have on a basis, holidays can trigger that spike much more frequently. Daiana, LMHC: that phrase when people say like time heals all is very ⁓ on the surface, What you just explained is what happens within that time. That integration happens as you are recreating that map of your life ⁓ now living that ache, living with that ⁓ loss. and creating meaning. When we create meaning, that is when our map has some type of blueprint, you have started living in it a bit, you're still, getting acquainted with it. And then you start to create meaning and things start to happen that you notice, ⁓ well, this happened or I behaved in this way or my belief has changed in this way because of this loss. these good things came out of it. because I have sat in the pain, I have been patient with myself and with others, I have been understanding of others and myself, I have given this time that happens anyway, right? But time alone doesn't heal all. It takes our part, it takes a lot of little decisions that we make daily, it takes so much grace, so much forgiveness of Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: ourselves and those who don't know better. As you get stronger, you can start ⁓ for help or letting people know, hey, no, that's not what I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing that or this. But in the beginning, it is not, that is definitely not our job. And we don't have it in within us ⁓ do that. But that integration that you're talking about, that those are all the things that we look forward to. when you're right in those beginning phases and knowing that, like you said, it pops up, it could pop up at any time. These memories or these thoughts or that person who you were in the past, when things were as they were, ⁓ right? All things come up. Cassandra: I'm thinking in regards to how this applies to holiday grief and anticipatory grief and all the different things. I've noticed that there's been one consistent message through all the interviews that we've had, and it's how do you support someone who's living with this? How do you support someone who's going through this? How do you make sure that they feel ⁓ like you know that they're there? And the consistent message has been just hold space for that person. And holding space can be something as as sitting on the phone with them while they're cleaning or ⁓ sitting in a room with them while they're crying. You don't have to do anything specific. You don't have to say the right thing. You don't have to the right thing. You don't have to be this perfect person. All you need to do is hold space. So if you know someone who's going through this, if you know someone that has ⁓ had a major loss or a milestone coming up, ⁓ and you to do something for them, offer to sit with for a cup of coffee. It doesn't have to be anything huge or dramatic. could just be a little bit time. Daiana, LMHC: Right, right. If you go onto our Instagram, we just posted a clip of ⁓ last interview that had with Adam, and they talked a lot about what to do. And ⁓ what hear ⁓ is, can I do for you? We hear these questions, ⁓ and they about not asking the questions and just doing the thing. And that's when we have, we just trust ourselves and intuition and how we know this person and just to show up, When we hold space, what that means is show up, ⁓ there. Don't ask the question, can I bring you this? No, just bring the thing or can I come over? Just go, hey, if they're not there, you just move on, right? Like ⁓ not home, but just be there is what that looks like. ⁓ I love that. We have been recalling all of these interviews because that has been such like a heartbeat of this show. And if there is any experience that you as a listener have that you want to share, please email us. All the information is in the show notes and we would love to have more of these conversations with you. Cassandra: Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: As we wrap up today's conversation, we are moving to our favorite part of the show, living loss lessons. This is where we bridge everything we've talked about with tangible takeaways that you can use right now. Cassandra: These lessons aren't about fixing the pain, but about finding a way to carry it. Sometimes it's a tool to practice and other times it's reflecting on the meaning you've built from a loss you never asked for. It's the strength you've gained even in the midst of the hard stuff. Daiana, LMHC: So I wanted to share, well, first of all, that this is my first episode back since I've been on this break for ⁓ loss of my own that I lost my dad. ⁓ within this, I've had ⁓ ⁓ just learn, but put into practice the things that I know. ⁓ I think that the hardest part has been ⁓ that patience of allowing for myself not to function as I usually do. What I'm used to I'm used to showing up to my life and not feeling and not being able to, like not having the capacity. ⁓ I have experienced listening to all of these, some things good, some things that have been supportive and some things that are the things that we say like not to say. But for me, knowing that they come from a good place, that I understand and it's been difficult for me to ask for help, that question about being a therapist ⁓ really made me think about What is the practicality of knowing things? Why is it important to know these things? And it was reassuring to me and I'm sure to you, Cassandra, about having this podcast of how important it is ⁓ know what's happening, what you're experiencing. And then for that to give you the ability ⁓ make some steps forward. and to allow yourself not to be perfect. I'm still having moments of brain fog, a lot of forgetfulness, ⁓ even apologizing for not being sharp and not being on it the way I usually am. So as I go back to allow for that to gradually and not to force anything and to... ⁓ now show up as who I am today, Cassandra, as we talked about, well, let me ask you this. Cassandra: I don't know how to follow that. Daiana, LMHC: As we're talking about ⁓ with grief you have shared in episodes, you have shared ⁓ grief of ⁓ loss of identity, of friendships, of family bonds, ⁓ of... ⁓ just these interpersonal relationships with friends, ⁓ with family, the loss of ⁓ Sabrina and loss of your other pets that you shared with Adam. you have allowed. for there to be change, for you not to hold on to things as they were. That is hard. And you've had to be open in many ways to let go of things in order for you to have new and better experiences. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. I think the most important thing to remember while going through loss and while reflecting upon losses that you've had in your life is to give yourself the grace to know that in each moment you're doing the absolute best that you can, even if it's lying in bed staring at the ceiling wondering how to go on. That is the absolute best thing that you can do in that moment. And there's a lot of grace that is required for yourself, especially if you're not living up to the potential that you have decided that you're supposed to be living. Daiana, LMHC: That is such a great reminder. Cassandra: Just give yourself the same grace that you would want someone else to give you or that you would offer to somebody else. Because there is no timeline. And that's the worst part about all of this is there is no timeline. Yes, time heals. Time allows you to shift. Time allows you to change. But there's no actual timeline as to when the hurt recedes, when things get easier. It's just going to be whatever it's going to be until it's not that anymore. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Thank you for that reminder, Cassandra, because I feel that I need that right now to remind myself that what I'm doing today is my best today. And that will look different daily. It could look different moment to moment, but to remind ourselves that we're doing the best we can with what we have right now. Well, thank you, Cassandra. I am so, so happy to be back. Thank you for holding down the fort for the amazing interviews that you conducted while I wasn't here. If you haven't listened to those, go back and listen to those last two interviews. They were phenomenal. I am so proud of you. I am so happy. I know you would flip it. Flip it, girl. Cassandra: You If I had hair, I would flip it. Daiana, LMHC: I just want to say thank you for the bottom of my heart for ⁓ showing up and for, know that moments could have been scary ⁓ or doubtful, you showed up and it means everything to me. And I felt very supported, very loved ⁓ and ⁓ the good things, all the good things. So thank you. And I want to thank ⁓ all of our listeners for being a part of our circle today. And remember by sharing this episode, you're helping us reach someone else who's carrying their loss in silence. Let's keep growing this community together. Please subscribe, follow, ⁓ share, and know that your story matters. ⁓ Cassandra: And just as a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapists. So this does not replace professional mental health care. But if you feel like you'd like to reach speak to someone ⁓ in general, please reach out to a professional near you. Thank you so much, Daiana. I'm so glad you're back. Yay! ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: I'm glad to be back. Thank you. See you next time.