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Gay–Straight Bromance: Why We’re Drawn to Each Other · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:07
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today are Matt Lancitle and Reno Johnston. Today we are talking about the unique dynamic between gay men and straight men. We'll be talking about why we are drawn to each other, why these friendships work surprisingly well, and what this reveals about modern masculinity. What we want you to get out of this episode is a fresh perspective on the term male bonding and how our different sexual orientations can actually connect us, not divide us. Before we jump in, a quick reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support the podcast by making a donation using the link in the show notes or. Or tapping on the thanks button on YouTube to show the podcast some love. All right, why did I choose this topic? I'd like to start off with, with my why here. The short answer is I recently did a series of Instagram posts on this topic and it generated a flurry, a firestorm of comments from men and women across the sexuality spectrum. And it just goes to show that there's a lot going on beneath the surface that's worth talking about with respect to the dynamic between straight men and gay men. And Instagram is not built for nuanced conversations, but this podcast is. So that's why I wanted to bring the conversation here with Matt and Reno. And on this podcast, we talk a lot about friendships with gay men. Most of the conversations on friendship are specific to gay men. We've also talked about our unique bonds with women quite a bit on this show. But when it comes to friendships with straight men, there's a unique complexity that we rarely dissect. So let's talk about it. Many gay men see straight men through a lens of survival. They were the bullies of our past. They may have felt intimidating or dangerous, and for some, maybe they still are intimidating and dangerous. And for some, straight men actually also represent a father figure who was perhaps cold, distant, or totally absent. Meanwhile, for other gay men, straight men can represent a gold standard of sorts. A visceral attraction to traditional masculinity, an unavailability that can be tempting to chase or want to seek in a. In a sexual manner or a validation that we're just desperate to win. Yet flip it for straight guys, right? They're struggling out there. I did some research on this in 2024, 17% of straight identifying single men report having zero close friends. Zero. That's about one in five. No close friends. Further, only 38% felt like they can turn to a friend for emotional support. Our straight brothers are literally starving for real connection and emotional intimacy out there. Now I get it. Let's be clear. Gay men struggle too. Not saying we don't struggle. It's not a zero sum game. We deal with higher rates of anxiety, depression, minority stress. We talk about that all the time on this show. But as well, because we've had to survive a world that wasn't built for us. It has enabled us, as gay men, some very unique life skills, some of which we've been forced to master the art of chosen family. We've liberated ourselves from a lot of social norms that straight men still have to adhere to, right? Things like the rule book on sex, dating, and relationships. We've built emotional muscles that the average straight man hasn't even been allowed to flex. Things like authentic self expression, vulnerability, courage, just to name a few. So our coming out struggles, hard as they may have been, gave us life skills to build a toolbox for things like intimacy and authenticity, while our straight brothers were handed a very rigid script for masculinity that has left them empty handed. So now you have this interesting dynamic, okay? You've got gay men who've learned emotional depth, expression, authenticity, intimacy, but are still drawn in many ways to the traditional masculine energy that straight men naturally carry. And then on the flip side, you've got straight men who have never had to question their identity, but they're suffering inside of it. In many ways. They're starving for that vulnerability, for that intimacy, for that connection and authenticity that comes so, so easily to us. It's almost like we're balancing each other out. Now, I know. I can hear you guys. This. I know this does not apply to everyone. Just chill out, okay? This is a generalization. I get it. But I think that this pattern shows up often enough that it's worth looking at and worth talking about. And so that's what we're doing here today. So we're gonna do this in three sections. One, we're gonna talk about why gay men are attracted to straight men. And then we're gonna talk about why straight men may be drawn to gay men. And then we're gonna talk about what that means about masculinity overall. Okay, so let's get started. I'm really curious to hear what our. What Matt and Reno have to say on this. Let's start with why do you think gay men are attracted to straight men? And let's start with Matt.
• 4:54
  Speaker C: Yeah, you did a great job at the intro. I'm like, what else can I say? You, you really unpacked the psychology behind it. I think, I think there's, there's something that's really important to note, which is like status, attraction. And I think a lot of gay men, I think somewhere subconsciously, we grow up thinking that there's a hierarchy and that straight men sit above us on the totem pole.
• 5:15
  Speaker B: Right?
• 5:15
  Speaker C: So I think there's an attraction to that, to the, you know, and that could be the sense of. It could be safety. I'm attracted to the thing that I perceive is going to oppress me or. So when we find safety in somebody who is that, that image, it could really lead us to feeling like, okay, this person is an ally. So I think safety a piece of it. I think security is a piece of it. But I, I think it's important to note too that the type of straight men that I think gay men would be attracted to are the ones that are secure in their, their sexuality. So there's an element of they'd be willing to hang out with us and not think that we just want to fuck them or that, you know, that whole thing like, oh, what if he's looking at my ass? Or what if this? Or what if that, like there's an element of what if he is looking at my ass, right? Like I'm still going to be friends with them. It's okay. And you know, I have, I have quite a few straight male friends actually. And I find that it's, it's. For me, it's a very safe relationship because there is. No, it does. It's not the other way around. I know they're not checking out my ass. I know they're right. And I know that that doesn't even have to be part of the equation at all. And so I think that's definitely a piece of it. And then, yeah, I would say masculinity, that's the easy, that's the low hanging fruit. Because I think that gay men perceive straight men as being more masculine than them. And I think that's the, that's the conditioning that we're, that we're taught, that's the subconscious program that a lot of us carry, is that if you're straight, you're more masculine, you're higher on the totem pole. Like, like I said, so. Yeah. And I think this is all more so in the. In the platonic sense. Right. And if we were to slide it over into the romantic sense, I would say there's a strong element of we want what we can't have, so we're attracted to it.
• 6:52
  Speaker B: We did an episode on that as well. But, yeah, this one's more platonic. I'm curious, Matt, when you're hanging out with your straight male friends, how do you show up differently?
• 7:00
  Speaker C: It's been such an evolution. Like, I've played on hockey teams my whole life, since I was a kid. And, like, obviously up until, you know, 23, 24, I was playing on all straight teams. I would assume maybe there was the odd closeted guy on the team, but I didn't know. And then when I, you know, around 25 is when I started playing on gay teams, and it's when I was younger and I was more insecure with my own sexuality. I was very. Almost. There was like, a fear around, like, being outed or, you know, these people don't feel safe. So I was in, like, a state of hyper vigilance. But with my straight friends now, like, we joke around about stuff, and I'll make jokes about them, like, eating pussy and things like that, and they'll joke about, you know, gay acts and stuff, and we just laugh about it. And it's, like, fun and light. And I think it's actually one of the most important things for. For a. For gay male development of loving ourselves is to actually come back to heterosexual men and connect and bond with them, because it is such a huge part of. I'll speak for myself. It was such a huge part of my healing. And so now I play on a gay team for hockey. That. Or, sorry, a blended team. So there's maybe like, yeah, probably two thirds gay guys and then a third straight guys. And it's really fun because it's. It's like. It's hard to even describe, but there's just, like this. It's. It's. It's balanced. The room feels balanced.
• 8:19
  Speaker B: Right.
• 8:19
  Speaker C: And. And I like that. Too much gay energy for me, like all gay men, it's. It's too much. There's too. There's not enough of that heterosexual energy to balance things out. And. And it's fun to see these guys bonding and, like, touching and, like, it's. I don't know, there's just something really about it. And it's not sexual at all. It's very much, like camaraderie. And so, yeah, it's very cool.
• 8:40
  Speaker B: Beautiful. Brina. I want to hear from you. But actually, let's start with that is maybe first tell us about your experience with straight male friends, if you, if you have any. And then answer the question, why are you attracted to.
• 8:50
  Speaker A: Just to gay or a lot of straight male friends? And have through the years is still do. I'm gonna like, slightly open a can of sardines here and only slightly because it. This, this is such a. Such a larger conversation. But like, I like distinctions because I like nuance. And there was a joke the other day when I was hanging out with a group of my queer friends. They were saying like, that word in Reno, like, I'm shocked if we don't hang out. And the word nuance doesn't come up at least once when I'm with Reno, you know, because everything to me is complex. And so I like to make distinctions between straight and heterosexual or gay and homosexual. I like to make distinctions between being a man and being a guy, for example. Right. And so we can get into that a bit further. I don't know that it's necessary, but for me, I find myself drawn to relationships with straight men opposed to guys because there's, there's like a brotherly kind of element to it. I think for me, in some ways there's kind of that like, brotherly component. I also think that the activities we engage in and how, how we show up, what's available, what's acceptable and expected or anticipated kind of changes as well. And so this, I guess this is where like, the, the nuance comes in, because I was. I was having a conversation. I was having a conversation recently on something that I had posted in our community, actually, and I had made this distinction between straight and heterosexual and gay and homosexual. And I said, the way I explained it is, if you're referring to someone as straight, right, why are you referring to them as straight? Like, what if you're not viewing them having sex with a female in the moment, you're referring to them as straight, then. Then what are you looking at, right? What are you referring to? And the same thing goes in the direction of a gay person, right? Like, if you're referring to someone as gay and not homosexual and you're observing them and you're referring to them as gay based on whatever it is you're observing, but you're not observing them having sex with a male, then what exactly are you observing and how are you qualifying and quantifying them as gay? The reason this distinction feels important is because there's something about our characteristics and attributes that differ and allow us to be placed in said box. Now, I think when those. Those differences come together, you know, you have a straight. A straight male and a gay male interacting, There's a complimentary sort of relationship and entity that comes from that engagement. I think another thing that I really noticed as well is that in those dynamics, we each. And Matt, I think, alluded to this in his share, were an access point to the healing and expression that the other didn't get. And so it's a means of growing to love ourselves and each through ourselves and each other. And that sort of relating. And to add to that part of it is because we've likely rejected the parts of them within ourselves, and the reverse has likely happened as well. And so when you come together in a space where the two of us are connecting and we feel safe, what I've started to see, and it's a really beautiful thing, is that all of the sudden. And call it the gayness in them, call it whatever you want to call it, but whatever it is, it starts to come out in a way, and the reverse in us starts to come out in a way. And there are moments where those two seemingly oppositional forces are both in the room at the same time. And there are also moments where we're both simultaneously engaged in kind of straightness or gayness together. Right. So it. It does become really dynamic, and it is really interesting. And I think it's. I think it's human nature to inevitably want to understand and engage with difference. Other, you know, because it's all connected. Yeah. And we've learned so much from each other, too. Like, it's incredible, these relationships I've had with strange men. Yeah.
• 13:29
  Speaker B: So much nuance in that response, Reno.
• 13:32
  Speaker A: It's a lot. It's a lot. And I know that. And please forgive me if you're listening. Yeah. If the listeners are listening and they're not tracking, it's like, you know, slide into my DMs and I'll elaborate further. Like, I've. I've written thoroughly about this, you know, and it's something I've given a lot of thought. And I think that nuance creates spaciousness and it bridges gaps. And so it's important to me.
• 13:56
  Speaker B: That's why you're here. That's why we're all here on this podcast. Yeah. Amazing.
• 13:59
  Speaker C: You should write some blogs for the Gay Men's Brotherhood blog, right?
• 14:03
  Speaker A: I think so. I think so.
• 14:04
  Speaker B: Get on our website.
• 14:06
  Speaker A: I think so. Yeah. What about you, Michael?
• 14:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think you guys Covered, you guys covered a lot of it. For me personally, I had more straight friends when I was younger, and now my straight guy friends have moved away. They're living their lives, so I don't see them as often. So we don't have that same touch point as we used to. My relationship with straight men is mostly my family. My brother, my brother in law, cousins, uncles, that kind of thing. But I will say, you know, I second what you're saying about a sense of groundedness and ease that I. That I like, that I appreciate straight men. Actually, you know what? I've had a lot of straight men come across my work, which is, I always find very fascinating, and they'll DM me or they'll even book a consultation call with me. And I'm just like, why? Like, I call myself like a life coach and I speak very much about gay things. And yet, you know, I think what I'm drawn to is the same thing. Reno, you said it really well. Like, we're kind of drawn to equal and opposing things in each other, which we'll talk about in the next question. But I will say this. You know, for me, I. I still have that yearning deep down inside to like, want to be one of the guys, because I was never one of the guys in school. And so I know for sure that that's. There's a bit of it for me that feels validating, that like I could have a beer and talk about sports and whatever else that I imagine straight guys do. And even though I. I know very clearly that that's. That where that comes from, there is still. There is still a longing and a yearning to. To want to be part of it. So I think a part of it for me is getting that validation that I didn't get as a kid from the boys in my class or the boys in my school. Yeah. And then there is that element of emotional safety where, like, when it comes to other gay guys, like, I'm a. It's just a different part of my brain that is switched on. Like now I'm thinking about attraction and I'm thinking about all these other things. And that all just gets put away when I'm with straight guys because just you don't have to. That part of my brain just isn't on, which is nice and it's refreshing and it's a bit of a relief. So that. That's what I would say that I get from it personally.
• 16:01
  Speaker C: Yeah. And you can just focus on the friendship.
• 16:03
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 16:03
  Speaker C: Right. It's like. And I can have that with, with gay men, too. It's like when we know, like, we don't work right and like, we've decided to just transition fully into a friendship and it's mutual on both sides. Those friendships feel really nourishing for me, too, because I don't, I don't have to worry about attraction or anything like that.
• 16:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, I, you know, I'll throw, I'll throw one more little component into the conversation, which is that there are some of my straight male friendships that have made room for physical and sexual intimacy. And, and what's, what's interesting about that is. Personally. Chew me up in the comments after this, please, if you want to, if you must. I, I don't actually think that that makes them gay, and I don't even think it necessarily makes them bi. I don't think that it makes them homosexual. I, I just think it's a, it's just an added layer. We've gone there and then never gone there again. But there's room for that as well. But it's not necessarily the foundation or the point of the relationship. It might just be that, okay, you've decided to explore a person, a world around that is unique to you and intriguing to you, and vice versa. And in that realm of exploration, there are all of these different, like, areas you can dive into and plug into, and one of them is sexual and physical intimacy. You don't have to go there, but you can, you know, for some of my guy friends, like, we'll just cuddle. For some of them we don't even like. It goes as far as hugging, you know what I mean? And everything in between.
• 17:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good segue into our next question, which we'll get to in just a sec. But first, I want to hear from the audience. Tell us our viewers and listeners. Tell us about your friendships with straight men. What makes them unique to you? What do you appreciate about them? And if you're enjoying the conversations we're having here, we invite you to join one of our connection circles. Every month, we host two connection circles where we facilitate small, intimate conversations about the topics that we discuss here on the podcast. But in a connection circle, we hear from you, our viewers and listeners, we put you in breakout rooms, and you get to chat with each other about whatever the topic of the day is. If you're curious about when the connection circles are and what topics we're we're discussing, go to www.gaymansbrotherhood.com and check out the events section to RSVP and of course, make sure you're on our email list and we'll email you all the information. All right, let's. Let's pick this up. Great segue, Reno. Why are straight men drawn to gay men? I use the word drawn. You can say attracted to. Yeah, I mean, us as queer folks. Gay guys. It's interesting to try to answer this, but for any of our straight listeners out there. Actually, you guys, please, I'd love to hear from you. Answer us as well. Right. In the comments.
• 18:47
  Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I like how you chose the word drawn. Because I like to. I want this conversation for at least for me to stay in, like, the. The platonic area because it is such a. It's an important conversation. And.
• 18:56
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 18:57
  Speaker C: So I. The first thing I put was because we are fun and we keep things light.
• 19:02
  Speaker B: Right.
• 19:02
  Speaker C: And we're funny and we have a good sense of humor and we talk about sex a lot and. Right. It's like they get to. I think gay men get to connect with the side of themselves that they don't really get to with women when they're with gay men. And they also can get that with their heterosexual buddies as well. But it's different. I think. I think gay men, I think we've mastered keeping emotions out of sex. And I think that's something that I think gay or straight men, like, probably a lot of straight men would like that. They wouldn't. They don't want to have to court and pay for dinners and wait three dates and all this shit. Right. And I think gate men, we've. We've mastered that of how to keep emotions out of sex. And that can be a good thing or a bad thing. Right. When it comes to being gay. But I heard you say off the top, like, something about gay men are good at vulnerability and intimacy and being with their emotions or something like that. I don't know if that's. But I don't know. That's just hasn't been my experience with. With gay men. I find that gay men are almost pretty much the exact same as heterosexual men when it comes to those three elements. And I would say, if anything, because I have dated bisexual men before and I've connected with straight men and a lot of straight men if they've dated women. I find women train men how to be more emotionally intelligent. And I see this like, with like, bisexual men. Any bisexual man I've ever dated has dated women. There's something that he has that I haven't experienced with. With someone who's never dated A woman before. So that is an advantage, I think, for gay men to. Or for straight men to be able to date women and to be able to develop that because women innately have this quote, equality. It's never been shamed in them to be emotionally expressive. And I think that trans transfers on to heterosexual men. But I will say that we, we keep things light, we have fun. That's a big, A big draw, I think. And then I think it's the mutual thing for me is that we can feel safe with them and they can feel safe with us because we are. Yeah, we're, we're. There's less pressure to be masculine. I think in this context, we, like you said off the top, we've dropped and liberated from some social norms. Right. And one of them is around masculinity. And I think, you know, it's the whole thing around emotions. I think actually what we've done is we've become better at connecting with our feminine and feel safer in connecting with our feminine. And that's probably something that in all straight men there's a little, little part of them that like wants to connect with that part of themselves, but they could never do that with their straight buddies. So there's maybe a part that they can feel a bit looser and more flowy with with gay men because they're not going to be called gay or a, or all these things. We're going to just celebrate the fact that they're being authentic. And then the last one I have is because we fawn over them and they love feeling attractive and they love when we're googly goggling over the fact that they're straight. I think that's a big part of it. So of course they'd be drawn to that because. And I see this on my hockey team, like, you know, the, the couple straight guys, they, I can tell they like when, when the guys are, are being like kind of sexualizing them and thinking they're hot and stuff like that.
• 21:53
  Speaker B: So. Yeah, those are all really good. Yeah, the intimacy is the kind of what you had said, the softness. So when I, when I talk about game and it's like a. Can sense if they're feeling down or we have that same thing that you just said women kind of have naturally. That's. There's the softness there that I think that's what I was referring to in the beginning.
• 22:12
  Speaker C: Yeah, it makes sense like, like a sensitivity. And I would say probably because we've, we've dealt with oppression, we've dealt with These things. So we've had to develop the capacity to, like, work with that within ourselves. So there's a depth. Probably what I would say to gay men, I think we have a hard time sharing that depth with each other, but maybe it would actually come out even more with a straight man because there's not that element of feeling like you have to be hot or cool or whatever with him. Like we, like we feel when there's a mutual attraction within each other.
• 22:42
  Speaker B: Totally agree. Reno, how about you? Why. Why do you think straight men are drawn to Damon?
• 22:46
  Speaker A: Let me piggyback. So you said we have a hard time sharing it with each other. And I would say that part of the reason for that is because that sexual component runs deep when. When it comes to gay men. To gay men. Right. And so the moment you introduce that, there's something to prove and there's something to be gained. And I think this is why women and men have trouble with each other as well, because they both come in with a certain expectation of the other, whether it's spoken and express, explicit or unspoken and implicit. And so therein, their room for intimacy becomes impeded in a way, I think. Right. Because in order for that to open up, they would have to show their cards. And. And, you know, and neither really does that. It's. It's always kind of COVID in a way, in that dynamic with gay and straight men, that's removed, you know, There was another thing I wanted to say on this note with regard to the question. So this is what it was. I was taking a sip of my water, and I was like, straight men are thirsty. They're thirsty. And I say that in the most endearing way. They're thirsty and we're wet, you know, and what I. What I mean by that is, like, we're deep and we're. You know, there's a fluidity about us. There's a fun about us. Yeah, there's a depth about us. We've, you know, we've navigated those waters of oppression and if we're lucky, moved out of them to some greater or lesser degree. It doesn't mean that we're not also still navigating, you know, these systems of oppression that we all swim in and trying to figure out how to be fully free and fully expressed. But what we offer them, I think, is a. At least, you know, a toe dip in those liberated waters. If not a swim in them, you know, if not a glass of them, a drink of them, you know, And I see that all the time. I Think it's precisely obviously why these men love spending time with me is because I will hear them, see them, engage with them in a way that their female counterparts will not. And also, like, I offer them, you know, a sip in a way that perhaps they won't get over there. And certainly not, unfortunately, certainly not with their straight guy friends. You know, know that. I mean, look no further than watching two straight men go in for a hug. That's changing now for sure. But, you know, it's that whole, like, you know, the sort of bro hug, like the closeness. It's physically, physiologically, you can see and feel the distance. Do not think that that is not translating into how they engage everywhere else. And how. How do they get close? It's usually, like, roughhousing and stuff. Now, listen, that's fun, too. Like, me and my straight guy friend, we used to wrestle all the time, and I loved it. Right. And also, don't think that in the back of my mind, I didn't know that this was his way of getting close to me because it's what he knew how to do. And I was like, hey, cool. I get to. I get to be one of those. One of those males who, who wrestles in this moment and not worry about, like, being shitted on because maybe there's a flick of the wrist here and there or something like that. Right? Like, we're good. We're good. Yeah, I would say. I would say that's my, my answer to that question. And yeah, I want to harp on the fun piece too, because we are, like, so much fun, you know, we are so much fun. And I really do feel that we, we give straight men access to parts of themselves and experiences that they wouldn't otherwise have, you know, and, and, and so, yeah, I don't know if you're struggling with homophobia or gay phobia. Like, work it out because you're missing out. You missed out. I'm just going to say it. You are. We're fabulous.
• 26:45
  Speaker B: The themes here that you guys both have, have picked up on are permission. Permission to be you. Permission to be free without feeling the word, worried about getting razzed or getting labeled or all these things. And also freedom. That's kind of the theme that I'm picking up here. Freedom to be. Permission to drop the act. Freedom to be you. Freedom to just play. Freedom to be affectionate. And that's a big one. I want to underline as well that. So, again, my experience these days have been mostly with family members who are straight men or People who've come across my work, who want to work with me, who are straight men. And I ask why now? It's a good time to answer some of that, that what you guys have said is exactly it. Right? It's a, it's a, it's a understanding of emotional depth. And I find a lot of guys don't have, like I said at the top, people to talk to openly, freely, without getting judged or like, if it's a straight bro, you're going to get judged for, for something. But if it's a woman, then, you know, those are people that you be attracted to or there might be some kind of different dynamic there. So again, it's different. Whereas we can be like an oasis of sorts in terms of talking about insecurity, talking about fear, talking about dating, talking about body image. Men have it too. All the things we talk about on this podcast, they'll say, what you guys talk about, I feel it too. And it's not a, it's not a gay thing, it's a man thing. And so there is a lot of that going on. And I think that's why if you're a straight man listening to this podcast, that's probably why. Not because you're like secretly gay, but because this, this, the topics that we are talking here really do impact them as well. But we're talking about it and that's the difference. And we're talking about it in a way that creates a lot of space, a lot of openness, non judgment, curiosity, like, and I think that's really appealing for a lot of guys out there.
• 28:21
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And I think we think heterosexual, you know, communities, it's not, it's not actually safe or even encouraged to connect with your feminine. That's what we're doing on this podcast a lot is talking about emotions, talking about expressing, talking about vulnerability, talking about intimacy. You don't hear that on like bro podcasts. Like, they're talking about like, hide further behind your masculinity, bro. And like they're, you know, breaking connection. Like, you know, your example Reno, when they hug, you watch straight guys hug, there's always that tap and it's like, that's them somatically being like, I'm breaking connection because if I just were to hold you, it's going to feel too intimate.
• 28:58
  Speaker B: Right?
• 28:58
  Speaker C: And I think that's what bro culture is, is encouraging these guys and they're so many people, so many straight men that are following this and like being influenced by that and it's just reinforcing this idea that they have to be an alpha or else they're. They're. You know, I love what you said, Michael. It's like this podcast really is like, a. A safe place for them to land and, like, get different influence from people who are embodying masculinity. But we've also done work to integrate our feminine as well.
• 29:24
  Speaker A: Yeah, I. And. And I think there's. I almost missed it. But in the straight male, straight male to straight female, and straight male to straight male dynamics, there's. There's still always this level of expectation around, like, how you are to show up. Right? Like, whether women say it implicitly or explicitly, there's an expectation of how a straight male is going to show up. And. And it's the same with the. With the. The other straight males, right? You got to be a bro, you got to be a dude, you got to be masculine. You got to be. You can't be this, you got be that, right? It's like, where is there room for you to land softly and open and blossom, you know, gently? Like, there isn't. It's not there. And then, of course, like whole other conversation. But we do that with each other as gay men as well. I think, in a way, there are certain expectations and such. So.
• 30:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, one thing, Matt, that you had said is that. That fawning over. And I agree with that. But there's also an element of. That isn't about fawning or putting them on a pedestal. That. That I think is why stray men are just drawn to gay men. I think it's very easy for gay men to naturally compliment people. You look good, you know, it doesn't have to be, like, in a sexualized way or a fawning way, but just, hey, you look, or just any kind of compliment. And. And what I've learned is that straight men don't really do that with other straight men unless it's kind of. Because there's a competition, almost like a silent. We're competing for dominance here, so I can't compliment you. And I've also learned that women don't really compliment men that much in terms of, you know, the way that gay men do, like, about our looks and about how we. How we appear and these things. So gays will do that, and we have no qualms about it. We're not trying to compete with you. We're also not trying to get with you. It's just. It's coming from a very real place. So I think a lot of straight men Are starved. And I actually see this when I'm out and about, like, listening to wives talk to their husbands or girlfriends talk to their boyfriends. I'm like, gosh, you treat him so poorly. Give this man a hug and, like, tell him how great he is and tell him how fucking sexy he is, because he is. And yet, you know, I see this is, of course, not all just what I've seen, but I see how they talk to their boyfriends and husbands, and I'm like, yeah, you just need some love, my friend. And come, come, come to daddy. Let me give you a hug. Let me tell you how great you look. And there's an element of that, too, right? Not in a trying to get with them kind of way. Just, like, I'm here to tell you that you're a beautiful, amazing man.
• 31:47
  Speaker C: I like that. I like that. I wish. I wish men, just in general, whether you're gay or straight, it doesn't matter. Felt more comfortable expressing. Just, they're. Yeah, they're. They're themselves.
• 31:56
  Speaker B: All of it.
• 31:56
  Speaker C: The emotions, the thoughts, the appreciation. It's such a thing that it's. It. And it's. There's such a huge impact in our culture. If you look at our fathers, our fathers don't do that for us. If you had a father that was emotionally expressive, you're extremely lucky, because it's very rare. Most of us have grew up with silent, stoic fathers who never expressed. And they were just, you know, everything was about acts of service, like, I'll build you this, or whatever. So, yeah, to have expressive men, it's just such a gift.
• 32:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, I. I have. My nephew's 20 years old, and he gives me the best hugs. Always has. He's always been very, like. As a baby, he was always very affectionate and cuddly. And then he got to, like, that teenager, and then he stopped doing it. And I told him, I said, what? Like, one time he kind of gave me this, like, hug, but, like, you know, the tap, tap, tap. I'm like, what the fuck is this? I'm like, give me a hug. Like, he used to give me. Like. And he's bigger than me. Like, he could pick me up if he wanted to. And I love it. I'm all for it. And he's like, you know, he had so much resistance to it at first. I'm like, no, this is how you hug. Like, don't ever let anyone take that away from you. Like, you give amazing hugs. Like a big bear hug. Like, that's how you should do it. And so he says he does that only with me. It's like, I only do this with you. Just so you know, I'm like, okay, fine, but be open to doing this with other men and women. It's okay to hug like that. It's fine.
• 33:07
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. That's really cute.
• 33:11
  Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So, audience, same, same. If we do have straight guys out there listening, please do tell us what. What do you love about your gay friends? What draws you to the gay folks in your life? And, guys, a lot of the patterns that we're talking about here today about identity, friendships, community, masculinity are exactly the things that we explore inside our coaching collection. It is a collection of 45 coaching videos that you can explore at your own pace. Plus you get lifetime access to two of our courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. It's created by us and made specifically for gay men. So check out gay men going deeper.com to check out our coaching collection. All right, last question. All of this, this. This talk that we're having about gay men, straight men, all of this, what does this tell us about how masculinity is evolving?
• 33:56
  Speaker C: Hmm. I think the main thing takeaway that I'm taking from this conversation is that men, all men, crave closeness, and they're not getting it from their. Their fellow straight brothers. And I think that we. We can be a bridge not only to have to share closeness with them, but to teach them how to do it, that it can be safe to connect with. It doesn't have to be sexual. You don't have to be labeled as gay because. Yeah, I just. I see this a lot, and I see that a lot of men are carrying a lot of pain and a lot of shame and a lot of loneliness. And that stat that you said about not having any friends, I think it's actually quite true. And if you look at heterosexual relationships, I think what ends up happening is there's an unspoken agreement or even spoken. It's like you can't. As a man, you can't have girlfriends, right? And your boys are gonna take you out and you're gonna probably go to the strip club and cheat and do these things. So I don't want you having boyfriends, guy friends as well, right? So it's like there's a lot of insecurity in. In that, and it's breeding a lot of loneliness. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah. What is it telling me about masculinity? Where are we? Still falling short? Yeah, I think Buying into this, this, like, rigid ideology around what masculinity is and what it means to have close. I would love to see this continue to evolve and, and shift. And I think we can. Can be that, and I think we can. Actually, one thing that, that I've always been for my girlfriends is help to help them understand men or straight men, to help them understand women. Like, I think, like, we, as gay people, we have this ability to be able to understand kind of both, I find. So we, we can be little conduits to helping our heterosexual counterparts find greater intimacy and closeness.
• 35:41
  Speaker B: Well said, Reno.
• 35:44
  Speaker A: This. Yeah, this is where that nuance comes into play again. Because I'll say it this way. As long as straight men are and heterosexual men, males are afraid of being gay, queer, feminine. And those are all just words given meaning and associated with attributes and forms of expression that have been pooh, poohed on by, let's say, patriarchal society. I don't know. As long as there's an aversion to that and what that means, you're missing out. And what I find so fascinating is that the evolution is still happening as we speak. You know, I see straight guys wearing things and expressing themselves in ways that we gay men would have been bullied and targeted for back in the day. Right. And so, you know, I don't need to call them out on that. Right. What it points to, though, is that there is an evolution and there is a longing implicitly and subconsciously to be more gay, queer, feminine. Right. And I know that hearing those words might trigger some of these straight and heterosexual men, but it doesn't mean what you think it does. You can embrace these characteristics in these words and still be attracted to the opposite sex. Like, you know, you're not. It's okay. We didn't die. You're not going to either. You know, and I, and I really do think that as long as there's an aversion to, to all of that, you're just going to continue to struggle and suffer and feel alone. And we don't want that for you. I certainly don't want that for you. You know, drink it up. You know, you're thirsty. Drink it up. Drink it up. You know, go for a swim. Go for a swim. Get wet. Get wet. You know, have fun. Have fun. Yeah.
• 37:42
  Speaker B: If I can fit that into the episode description, Reno, I, I will. You're thirsty and we're wet.
• 37:47
  Speaker A: Truly, though.
• 37:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. So I think masculinity is expanding in, in the right way. From what I've seen I don't have any empirical evidence of this. There is empirical evidence that men are struggling. That I will say. But yeah, you know, these men in general, gay and straight, want deeper connection but don't know how to build it.
• 38:04
  Speaker A: That's.
• 38:05
  Speaker B: That's clear to me. Gay men have had the benefit of coming out and, and being othered. I say benefit in this case because it did, as I said in the beginning, teach us skills that we have not all of us, but a lot of us have mastered. And so, yeah, lean on us. We are that bridge. We can not all of us, we, but some of us can show you affection and hug you and talk about your insecurity. Because, girl, we got it too. Like, we've had that our whole life. Like, you know, shame, fear, insecurity, body image issues. These are all things that we know very well and we have been dealing with. So why not tap on the shoulders of those who have been there and can talk about it with you? If the tools and the knowledge and the skills are lacking, then there you can find them. And, you know, I for one invite straight men to talk to me about these things because I do get it and I'm not going to hit on you and it's not going to be weird. And yes, you know, we have to have a kind of also mutual respect for that, like not crossing boundaries as well. So, yeah, I think, I think it's a good sign. I think it's a good thing for masculinity. I think that the more we can lean on each other and find our commonalities, which there are many, instead of just focusing on that one difference, the better it is for all of us. Clearly, as this as shown, there's a
• 39:18
  Speaker C: movie called Fourth man out and it's about four guys that grew up together and one of them comes out as gay when they're older. It's all the stuff we talked about today shows up in this movie and it's actually quite a. It's a quite a good movie. Yeah. So I recommend for Fourth Man Out.
• 39:34
  Speaker B: Fourth Man Out. Okay.
• 39:35
  Speaker C: Because like, he's kind of feeling excluded from that and there's a lot of humor in it and it's. I don't know, it's interesting show.
• 39:41
  Speaker B: What else this tells me is when I think about straight male spaces, not that I know too, too much about them because I don't spend too much time there, but it does tell me that there's a. I sense that there's a lot of rigidity and pressure and the relief I think comes from that, like, hey, let me step out of this straight male space, go to this gay male space. And, you know, I'm not competing. I'm not trying to impress. I'm just being me. And these guys are pretty easy to be with. So, you know, that's just an impression I get. Matt, maybe you would know from being on hockey teams that is that the case is.
• 40:08
  Speaker C: Sorry, can you say what you said again?
• 40:10
  Speaker B: The rigidity of, like, these straight male spaces that there's a lot of pressure and expectation.
• 40:15
  Speaker C: Yeah, I would say even, like, shaming and sometimes even overt shaming. Like, if you're too feminine or if you say something and there's an inflection to it that you sounded gay. Like, it's like your. Your straight bros are going to razz you and make you feel, like, inferior about it. So I do think we have a lot. A long way to go. Like, think about how coming out for us has taken decades to finally find acceptance of this part of ourselves. And I think, you know, like, it's a little different because we are gay and we do have desire to be with other men. But for a lot of guys, there is homeoerotic tendencies in them, and, like, sexuality is so fluid, so they could still be carrying a lot of that shame as well. So. But it takes standing up to it being right. Like, if you have. If you're straight and you're hanging out with straight guys and they're, like, shaming that sort of stuff, stand up to it even if you're not gay. Because it's like, why, why. Why does that have to be something that you're using as, like, a derogatory or as slander, you know?
• 41:07
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 41:08
  Speaker B: I love when I meet gay bars. It's. It's so fun. It's probably also the same reason why women like going to gay bars, because they would probably say the same thing. There's just a lack of. It just feels safer for them in some ways. And so it's interesting that these spaces are drawing women, straight men, and they're saying the same kinds of things. The inclusivity and the fact that there's, you know, not. It's safer for them in different ways. I think that's.
• 41:32
  Speaker C: Yeah, straight men need to stop coming to our bars. Because then I end up finding them and I'm like, ooh. They're like, yeah, I'm not gay.
• 41:38
  Speaker B: Like, oh, that's my girlfriend. I'm like, girl, Good job.
• 41:41
  Speaker C: There's 500 guys here. And of course, I Sniff out the straight dude.
• 41:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, me too. Yeah, I think all three of us.
• 41:45
  Speaker C: That's too funny.
• 41:46
  Speaker B: All right, Any last words, guys?
• 41:48
  Speaker C: No.
• 41:49
  Speaker A: I think the only thing I would say is to echo what Matt said previously. Yeah. Be the glitch in the matrix. Like, go first, Go first. Like, if you're in an environment where you're experiencing that rigidity and you want to welcome more of the. This wetness we speak of that you might experience by spending time with any one of us. Be the water. Be the water in your environment, in your group of guys. Mental. Be the one to shake and stir things up. That's what we're out here doing. And it's why. It's why some ways I think we tend to. To express ourselves so fully is because once you've had a sip, gosh, you're like, not only do I want to drink more, but I want to rain on everyone and everything because to be so free, to be so me, to be so open, so. So like, like, you know, walk through your group of friends, your. Your men, your brethren, and set them free. Open the cage doors, invite them out to play with you. Yeah. That's all.
• 42:51
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 42:51
  Speaker B: And to our gay listeners, which are most of you, send this episode to your straight friends. Please do invite them to come along with us. This is. This is an open door. Start with this episode and, you know, go through. We have 290 almost. Pick through your favorite ones that resonate with you and listen, like we do. Invite all of our straight brothers here as well. All right, guys. Thank you, Matt and Reno, for joining on this episode and for your insights and experiences. As always, thank you to our viewers and listeners for sticking with us. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and tap that thanks button to support the Game and Going Deeper podcast and the gay men's brotherhood. Don't forget, guys, you can also subscribe to Episodes on Apple Early Episodes access to get episodes before they are released wide to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting our community. We thank you in advance and we'll see you in two weeks. Bye, everyone.