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Daniel Roth: Fix the System, Not the Effort · Entrepreneurial OOMPH

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: All right so daniel roth how are you i'm doing.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Wonderful thank you deborah so good to have me on
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: i appreciate you uh bringing me on to the.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Show yeah you're welcome you're welcome well it's it it's
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: always interesting to learn from uh new people hear their
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: different perspectives what's What makes you successful? What are you doing?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Why are you doing it? You know, what was the
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: catalyst for getting you where you are? So all of
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: those things, you know, it's good for people to hear
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the stories because people get nice nuggets and takeaways, right?
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: When they hear other people's suggestions or strategies. So that's
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: all good. It's all good. So why don't you start
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: telling me just a little bit about who you are,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: where you are, what you're doing, business, personal, wherever you
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: want to go. This is... your opportunity here.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Deborah. Well, again, thank you again for having me on.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: What I would like to share with your audience is
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: my background is I've spent more than 27 years around
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: really one recurring business question. And it's why can two
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: organizations have equally good people and equally sound strategies yet
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: get completely different results? And so I've led organizations of
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: more than 2,500 people, carried a $ 70 million P & L.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: And I've also been inside transformations where growth exposed every
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: weakness in the operating system. And so today through my company,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: which I found at Pangea Effect, I help leaders close
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: that gap between what they intend and what the organization
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: actually executes. And when I'm not running Pangea Effect, I
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: love to travel. um, and, and mountain bike. And so, uh,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: my wife and I are both, uh, avid mountain bikers
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: and try to get out into nature and, and, uh,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: it's our, it's our nice way to reconnect and, uh,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: and re-energize.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: So wait a second, mountain biking, go back and say,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: you're in Florida. I think the biggest elevation are the
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: speed bumps. Where are you going mountain biking?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I like to say the landfills are the biggest elevation.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all right. You got a point. I'm corrected. Yes.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I grew up thinking that I grew up in South
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Florida and I thought that those were hills, but actually
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: my home base, I'm in Florida right now, but my
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: home base is Atlanta, Georgia. And Northern Atlanta actually does
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: have some mountains and actually has great riding. And if
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: you love trees and you love lakes and nature, it's
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: actually a beautiful place to go visit.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Nice. All right. So I have to ask you, have
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: you been to North Carolina?
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've been in North Carolina. My parents actually, when
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I was growing up, built a cabin up in the
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: woods in North Carolina. And that got some of my
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: enjoyment of nature and experiences, which I think to this day,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I still very much crave.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: So I know that the background may or may not
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: be a picture that you took or But it's interesting
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: that it's a lake with pine trees and the mountains
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: in the background.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: It actually is from a picture that I did take
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: while traveling.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I included that in the background.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: It looks great. Where was that taken?
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I want to say that one was, gosh, I think
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: that one was either North Carolina or up in Pennsylvania area.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: That's beautiful.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: It's one thing when you take as many pictures as
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: you can take today with the iPhone and with our devices.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I forget where pictures are taken a lot, but I
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: just enjoy them. And I actually have to go in
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: and I love that now they have the GPS coordinates
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: of where you took the pictures. You can actually go
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: on the map and look at it and go, oh,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: that's where I was.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: When I look at stuff from years ago, it's like,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: where was I? Where was I?
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: That's good. So, all right. So you're in a beautiful state.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: You live in a beautiful state. You work in a
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: beautiful state. You love mountain biking. And the name of
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: the company again, how does it pronounce correctly?
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Pangea Effect.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Pangea Effect. So what does that mean? What is Pangea? Yeah.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So Pangea is the continent, the supercontinent from history when
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: you go way back before we have all our continents today.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: And if you think about businesses, they usually start as
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: one enterprise, one system. And they're very generous as a
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: small business, the individuals. And over time, as the company
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: grows and scales, they learn that they have to have
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: specialists in specific roles, whether that be finance, operations, sales, marketing, right?
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  Speaker 2: And so... When that happens, that's like Pangea. It starts
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: to separate from that super continent. And that's the effect.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: And then on the flip side, when a company scales,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: sometimes they become over siloed. And all of a sudden
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: they need to revisit and they start going, wait a second,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: we don't need to be as segmented as we are.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: In fact, that's hurting our ability to grow because it's
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: breaking down communications and adding unnecessary complexity. And so it
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: starts to come back together. and they start to consolidate departments,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: things like that. So that is the Pangea effect. We
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: help organizations close a gap between strategy and execution.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, I know so many businesses that could use you.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I was just having this conversation with my husband the
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: other day, and we were talking about how his company
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: now has grown and companies that he's worked with before
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: so much that what's that saying? Your left hand doesn't
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: know what your right hand is doing? And they work
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: so siloed and they're making decisions independent of like, oh,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: maybe we should ask this other department because I think
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: that the customer experience is going to get different results
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: based on us doing this. But it's better for our department.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: So we're going to go ahead and do this. Let
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: those guys worry about it. Yeah.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: And what happens is the company, the leaders in the
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: company start getting very focused on what, usually the company
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: is defined as success at the department level, at the
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: team level. And so they become very focused on their
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: metrics and they become disconnected from actually the corporate strategy.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So maybe it's tangentially, there is some connection there, but
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: the core focus no longer becomes about the company strategy,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: becomes about that work, that team's goals. And if they're
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: not well-designed and intentionally thought out, that's when I think
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: you start to have this drift occur where the execution
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: of the team, of the individuals, while they're very oftentimes
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: well-minded and well-intentioned, they end up moving away from actually
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: the corporate strategy.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which actually ends up having a real impact, good, bad,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: or indifferent to the client experience and results in the
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: overall success of the organization. It's amazing to me that very,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: very smart, intelligent human beings can get so uber focused
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: on what they are doing that they don't think about
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: that bigger picture, right?
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. I think growth exposes operating weaknesses the business
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: could previously absorb. And so what happens is that as individuals,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: they want to focus on winning, right? And what happens
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: is they start to define what winning looks like versus
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: having the organizational definition of it work like that. And
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: that's where companies that maybe have done work on what
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: a mission statement is or what, right? They start to
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: no longer center all the work around that mission statement.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: And so while it still exists in the ether and
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: conceptually it still is valid, The actual conversations that are
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: occurring in the day-to-day work in the boardroom are not
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: necessarily aligned to that mission, especially as it flows through
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: from the leadership, the senior leadership, all the way down
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: to that frontline team member who needs to actually do
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: the work.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I see that all the time. It's amazing. So
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: you have good intentions, right? So the good intentions are
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the mission, the vision. Oh, yeah, we're going to do this.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: We're going to do team building, rah, rah, rah. And
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: then they start to diverge. And like you're saying, I
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: think part of it from my experience, some of the
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: managers and the leaders, the team leaders, they start to
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: focus on their success. And like what you had said,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: it's the individual team success. Like I've got to be
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: the best and this has got to be the best
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: team because I have to sit at the table with
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: my peers and answer to the CEO or the board.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to look like I have egg
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: on my face. So we've got to hit the numbers.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: And in the sales department, it's about the numbers. It's
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: all KPIs. It's all, what did you do today? Great
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: that you did that deal yesterday. How much did you
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: bring in today? How many clients are you bringing in tomorrow?
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: And I think they get so uber focused on the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: things that are what they deem as success that they
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: lose that. And so the companies that you work with,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: is there any specific industry or are you seeing this
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: pretty much across the board?
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Across industries, about 40% of our workers in the healthcare
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: space specifically. But other than that, we're pretty agnostic around
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: the industry because operational challenges and transformation is really something
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: that occurs across every industry today. We do a lot
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: of work at the cross-section of technology being implemented and
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: operations actually execution. Because there's usually a gap that was
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: what we find between what the technology or senior leadership
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: has identified that's needed and what the operation is ready for.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: And so we help close that gap. And that tends
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: to be industry agnostic.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: So, okay, well, that's interesting. And the clients that you
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: work with, how do you determine who you can really
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: help the most? Is there a solution formula?
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so typically the organization is clear on what they
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: want to accomplish first from a mission and purpose standpoint.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: So they're up to something as an organization. And they
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: also have the funds to be able to support, they're
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: up to that, right? And at the same time, they
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: have identified that either a portion of the operation of
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: the business overall, whether that be a department or a team,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: or the entire organization is not moving at the pace
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: that they are expecting it to, to meet their own
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: internal objectives. And so, They're ready to solve for that.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: And usually where it starts is we come in and
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: we assess, we help them with an assessment, taking a
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: look at really where is the operation starting to slip
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: and move away from what the strategy actually is. And
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: we have a whole assessment process around that. And we
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: call that execution drift. And so the long-term objective is
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: to help an organization be able to, A, solve for
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: where it's happening and close the gap. But then longer term,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: how do you drive consistency in your business and to
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: be able to keep it from occurring in the future?
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: So putting certain scoreboards and scorecards in place and methodologies
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: to be able to identify when drift starts to occur
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: before it becomes impactful in the metrics. And that's the
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: key because usually a company starts reaching out when the
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: lag measures are are identifying that there's an issue, but
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: by then it's already somewhat institutionalized. And it's a lot
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: harder to change and a lot more expensive to change
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: than if they can catch it earlier from lead measures
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: and be able to then just, you know, make sure
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: that they solve for it before it becomes, you know,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: an endemic across the organization. Yeah. Yeah.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting. So on a smaller scale, so if
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: you're talking to solopreneurs and you talk to small business owners,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I think the pivot is a lot easier. Not that
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: it's easy in any stretch of the imagination. However, I
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: do believe that the shift of the mindset and what
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: you call transformation and then putting people back in the
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: room and let's put this back into perspective. is a
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: much simpler process than a larger organization, which I kind
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: of like into turning a cruise ship, right?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: I use the same analogy, actually, it's funny. It's very,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: very hard. It takes a lot of time and coordination, right?
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it takes a lot of commitment.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: And then, so where is the biggest challenge? So my
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: experience has been the biggest challenge has been with managers
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and team leaders being okay with hitting numbers that aren't
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: tied to their ego because you're talking about human beings.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: We're talking about the emotional commitments. We're talking about ego
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: and pride and I have to be number one. So
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: there's that. And then you've got the board of directors
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: that say, well, we want our profits to be here.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: So what are you doing about your revenue? And then
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you've got that other message of, okay, so we wanna
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: hit these targets and we wanna do it mindfully with
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: intention and purpose, staying aligned with our mission statement. So
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: how do you bring all of that together?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a lot to unpack there.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there is.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: And where I would start is defining success. As a leader,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: whether it's a one person, solo entrepreneur company, a five-person organization,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: a 50 or much larger, as an owner, founder, or
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: executive leader, I think it's incumbent on that leader to
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: spend time, real time, focused time on defining success, getting
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: really clear about it and writing it down, documenting it.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: And success, you know, needs to have time bound, right?
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: It needs to have It needs to be measurable, right?
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: It needs to be something that they don't need to
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: know the how. That's not really what defining success is,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: is not knowing the how. That is the work itself, right?
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: But it's more around setting up the success so everyone
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: is on board and clear and communicated to and can
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: paraphrase back what success is, right? Right. So once that's
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: in place, now you can set expectations around the success.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And now the expectations will determine what the work is.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: And I think as leaders, again, once you get beyond
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: one person and you have a second person involved, what
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: happens sometimes is that good people protect the company or
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: the customer by compensating for weak systems. And as a
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: small company, that's okay. And especially if you don't have
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: super tight deadlines that are super urgent, you have space
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: for the corrections. But at some point, capacity just runs out.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: And when that happens, then the workarounds start occurring. And
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: the workarounds are all good intentioned. But as that starts
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: to happen... then the work, the process starts to no
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: longer fit the work itself or the most efficient, effective
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: path for the work or the optimized path. And in
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: that moment is where I think breakdown starts to occur.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: So what does a company do to get themselves back
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: on track? And from what I heard you say, it's
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: from leadership down, it has to be top down. The
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: leader has to be totally in control Right. And then
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: it trickles down. And then have you been have you
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: had the experience where you've gone into an organization and
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: there has been some people that have had to be
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: let go because their mindset was not open to the shift?
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. So typically the first place that I
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: start is I really look at the culture and it
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: depends on the size of organization. It might just be
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: a person that's or a team. In my book, I
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: actually have a section where I talk about a study
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: that was done and I cannot remember the author of
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: this study. So I want to be clear, it wasn't
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: my study, right? But basically it was taking a look
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: at an organization and how many people in an organization
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: with a bad attitude actually can impact an organization. And
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: if I recall correctly, it was like three to 5%.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: So if you have a company with 100 people in it,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: And you have three individuals across the organization that are
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: just negative Nellies, right? They're just naysayers. They are disruptive.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: That can create enough momentum that others won't speak up
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: to overcome, right? And they can literally destroy the culture
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: of the organization. So yes, sometimes you need to take
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: a look and go, this person is not willing or
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: able to to pivot with the organization on its change.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I will say also that I have seen where, particularly
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: when an executive leader gets changed and they like to
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: bring their own team in, their own individual in, that
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: sometimes I think they move too fast to write off
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: good people because there was a problem that wasn't solved.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: And that's why that leader was brought in. Maybe they
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: were given a goal and the team didn't meet that goal. Well,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: did you go back and define success? Did you set expectations?
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Did you give them a chance? Maybe the previous leader
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: would not give the other individual empowerment to.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Do that work.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Right. So I do think sometimes leaders also move too
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: fast to remove someone because that can be the easy
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: button versus and what they do is they lose institutional knowledge.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: And so are you ready for that as a company?
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Do you have everything documented? Do you have all the
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: work shared out? Do you know everything that person does
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: before you let them go? So I think there's both
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: sides that I've seen.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point. So at one point I
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: was standing in a CEO for a company, small, 13%.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: million a year, not big. And I think there was
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: maybe 60 employees. And the CEO had to take care
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: of some personal stuff. And he was insisting that I
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: fire his CFO, like from day one. And I had
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: that conversation with him. And I said, I don't know
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: enough Walking in. I if you needed to fire him,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you should have done it before you brought me in.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: If you thought that that was the case, don't let
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: me be the bad guy. I'm not doing that. And
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: so I had to take the time to learn and
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: meet with this person and see his reports and go
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: through his the financials. And six months later, right before
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the other CEO, it was a it was a short stint.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: I ended up letting him go. But at that point,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I had now the information that I was able to
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: share it with another individual. And so the institutional knowledge
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: that you spoke about, making sure that you don't just
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: fire because emotionally you can't stand working with the person anymore,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: which I think was also the case. There was some
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: personality conflicts going on. That piece of it, Being mindful
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: enough and strategic enough to take that step back and say,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: for the big picture, the long-term strategy that's going to
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: work the best for this company to not just sustain itself,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: but to thrive. It's like playing chess. I've got to
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: make these moves at these times, especially when you're dealing
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: with a large organization.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can share the opposite version of the story.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: So I was brought in to do, uh, so basically
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: there was a large call center, about 1100, uh, individuals
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: split between insourced and outsourced. Um, and it was at
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: a healthcare organization and I was brought in because that
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: department was, was so siloed that the, that the C-suite,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: the COO specifically, who was, who brought us in, um,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: said that, uh, They no longer, their measurements didn't align
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: with the company strategy. And while the leader was very
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: charismatic and got along with everyone, that the actual work
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: being done didn't align with the business. And they didn't
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: seem interested to come along to make the change. Now,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: this was a VP level individual that I was coming
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: in to step in in their place. And there were
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: two directors at the time. And then there were some
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: management with that. And I was told you're going to
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: probably have to replace the whole team. In fact, one
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: of those directors came with that person, with that VP. So,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: you know, very loyal to that person so much as
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: also doing some personal tasks, not just work tasks like
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: that type of relationship. And I said, okay, well, same
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: thing you said. I said, give me some time. Let
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: me assess and let me make sure that we don't
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: lose anything by releasing. But also let me just take
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: some time with them and get to know them. So
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: give me three months. And what I'll tell you is
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: about 45 days into it, one of the leaders, the
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: one that was that actually came with the other leader
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: that was no longer there. And he came into my
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: office one day and he said, Daniel, I get it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I go, what do you get? He goes, I get
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: what you're doing. I said, what am I doing? And
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: he said, you're bringing structure and order and discipline in.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: And previously we were managing by chaos. And he goes,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not used to this. It's not comfortable for me.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: But I think I like it. I'd like to make
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: sure that I'm given a chance to do this.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Good for him.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And he goes, and I give you, and he basically said,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: he didn't use these words, these are my words, but
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: he said, basically, I give you permission to tell me
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: if I'm not coming along or if I'm resisting something.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: And he ended up becoming a phenomenal leader. And he
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: had certain strengths that I just don't have, but I
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: absolutely crave on a team. around some of the culture
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: building components. And he ended up becoming a superstar. And
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: then another leader that also I was supposed to consider
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: letting go, when I ended up completing the work there
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: and I moved on, she took my place. And she
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: was a superstar as well. And so I think giving
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: leaders a chance to adjust to the new normal and
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: seeing if they step into it And seeing if they
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: can grow into it is a sign of a good leader.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think what you did was you created leaders,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: which is the mark of a good leader, right?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that. And what my favorite part is,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: is that down the road, even when I move on,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: when they move on years later, we're still in communication, right?
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Because that's when you see the difference, right? I think
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: that's the mark of being someone real with others. and connected.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: And that's actually the most meaningful part of the work
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: to me is years later, being able to get together
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: with team. There's one team I worked with in 1999, 2000,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: and it was around with Facebook. We all reconnected just
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: over time. This was years ago now, about 2015, 2018,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: so 15, 17 years later. And we ended up creating
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: a reunion. And at the time, the team was about
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: 100 that I was leading there. But 15 of us
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: from that team all showed up in Knoxville, Tennessee, where
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: that work was. And we all had dinner and it
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: ended up being hours long. And we shared war stories, right,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: of all the different experiences. And so I think that's
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: also something that's important is the pains, the chaos, the
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: struggles of particularly being a solo entrepreneur or a small
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: business entrepreneur. Those become the things that bond if you
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: break through together. And so those become the stories that
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: builds the character of the organization to be able to
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: stand on and know later when you get a bigger
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: challenge that you've faced a hard one before and you've
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: made it through, you can do it again.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's great that you keep attention. Yes, the
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: relationships are a stamp of the rippling effect that you've had.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: on the organizations, the people. And then, and I just
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: had this conversation with another podcast guest recently. And we
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: talked about that ripple effect and how you don't even
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: know that you changed at least those two people, that
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: gentleman and the woman had stepped up, right? And because
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: of that, their families have a different lifestyle. Their teams
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: are different. They're different leaders. They're treating people differently. They
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: have different relationships. So And on and on, right? It goes. Yeah,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: that's a nice legacy to leave. Maya Angelou says, if
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: you're going to leave a legacy, leave a mark that
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: can't be erased.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: That's beautiful. Absolutely. Maya Angelou is just a brilliant, so
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: much wisdom comes from that woman.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I love that saying. So, all right.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit, let's go back to
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: the work that you're doing. What has been... the biggest
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: challenge that you have faced that caused you the personal
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: growth and the shift and the pivot to what you're doing?
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I can share kind of the decision
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: point where I, the inflection point where I said, okay,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go down Pangea effect and start this
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: process here of building my own company. Right. And I was,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I was working in an organization and the organization was
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: was struggling financially. And they brought in consultants that, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: the leadership said, basically share everything, be transparent, hide nothing,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: tell everything. And the idea was that they would come
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: in and they would help us review our plans, make
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: sure that we had good transformation plans and execute them.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: And every department was part of this. No one was
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: left untouched, which is great, actually. I'm a fan of that.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: If you're going to go look at it, go look everywhere.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Because likely there's threads that attach, particularly the more complex workflows.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: So they came to my team. And with my team,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: we had already been on a three and a half
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: year long journey at that point of transformational work. And
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: we were pretty rigid, not rigid, I'm sorry, pretty structured
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: at that point. We had the company strategy that was
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: updated annually. We did six month roadmaps associated with that. strategy.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: We had quarterly reviews. We had monthly meetings. We had
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: weekly and daily, you know, task lists and things like that.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: So we were moving along and we had already made
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: significant progress around cost savings, around volume handling and whatnot
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: and quality of work. And they looked at my plan
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: that we had spent a lot of time on myself
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: for my leadership. And it was an eight point plan
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: with a lot of sub points to it, but an
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: eight point plan that had over a million dollars of
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: savings associated with it and other things. And they said, okay,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: let us review it and we'll come back with any questions.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: They came back, they had some questions. We had reviewed
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: that plan with finance before they ever saw it. Finance
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: already signed off on part of it. So we knew
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: what we were doing. They came back later and for
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: my team, they presented my exact plan on their letterhead.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not surprised.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: With the exact words, the exact picture.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, they changed them.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: And they took the credit for it. Now, you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: people within the organization that were in the known, knew
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: that I had done it with my team. My team
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: had done it. But it was an inflection point of
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: because they said it, now the company's going to do it.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: And I just thought that there's a huge gap where leadership,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and this goes back to a comment I made earlier.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: This was where I identified, where I distinguished, is probably
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: the better word, that sometimes when a C-suite changes or
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: a senior leadership changes, they don't look at the team
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: they have and what's possible with them. They only look
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: at there's a gap between what's so and where they
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: need to be, and you must be the problem. And
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: that was the moment that I said, okay, there's this
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: concept called execution drift, right? And so how do you
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: catch that earlier? How do you have a whole organization
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: involved in it? How do you identify when the specialization
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: becomes too specialized?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. So having gone through that process and you know what, um,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: shame on those consultants, first of all, and also shame
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: on the leadership, because I think that's another thing, like,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: like an outside source is going to know more than
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: the people we have working for us. And like you said,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: instead of looking internally first, and I, and I wonder
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: how much of that, um, also has to do with, um,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the syndrome is called, but there's
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: that whole thing about your kids. If you have children,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: you could say something to them 20 years, 20 years,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: you're saying the same thing over and over again. They
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: don't hear you. One professor, one friend, somebody else's parent
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: says it to them. And it's like, oof, the light
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: bulb went off because it was a different voice. It
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: was coming from somebody that you see through a different filter.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: And that's, that's right. The filters. So when you're in
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: leadership and you have and it's unfortunate that people get
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: labeled and pegged and put into those boxes. This is
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: what he's good at. This is his job. This is
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: what he does. Instead of looking at what the skill
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: set is and is that and talking about turning leaders down.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: you know, having more leadership, turning more people and helping
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: more people get developed into strong leaders. You can't do
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: that if you keep looking externally. I think that's such
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: a blinder.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think sometimes when there's a lot of pressure
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: to make massive improvements in an organization quickly and you're
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: not truly the leader, primary shareholder or the owner, right?
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: That has control of and there's pressure coming down. The
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: easy path is to make a change of a person
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: because then you can say, I'm doing something. It's concrete.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: No one can argue with that, right? Now, whether that
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: proves out to be the right decision or wrong decision
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: takes time to play out. And there's also time to
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: correct that if it ends up being the wrong person.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: But I think that sometimes that that is just the
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: way to show It's evidence, right? And it's easier path
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: than actually doing the work of rolling up the sleeves,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: working on the plan itself, right? And identifying truly what are,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: so like one of the things I think about is
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: how can a founder or a leader tell the business
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: has outgrown the way it's currently being led? And one
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: way that it can do that is to look for
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: repeated escalations, inconsistent answers, Customer expectations that don't align with
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: the work and they show up as customer exceptions, right?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: And then knowledge that lives with one person or two
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: people and not being something that if that person's not there,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: you know, anytime a leader or a company or an
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: individual needs to say, oh, we can't do that today
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: because Johnny's out. You know, that's a gap in the business.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: That's a single point of failure, right? Yep. And I
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: think when companies focus on those things, that's where breakthroughs
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: come from. Because typically, if you find that gap, there's
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: others associated with it. And it quickly becomes something that
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: you can solve for many things at one time. At
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: one organization that I went to, I was brought in
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: and we were handling phone calls for a healthcare organization.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: And it was scheduling appointments for care. And one of
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: the requirements was to collect credit card for the copay.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Makes sense, everyone's familiar with that, right? And so at
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: the organization, it was, why is the team only at
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: 32% collect credit card for this? We should be asking everyone,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: clearly they're just not following the rules, right? Very simple,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: go make them follow the rules. Well, so they originally
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: treated it as a frontline compliance problem. And at that organization,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: we had AI already in place for quality. So we
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: used AI to analyze every call and found several distinct constraints.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: A small group of agents weren't asking, and that's what
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: they were talking about on compliance. But others used language
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: that was so soft that the customer could easily defer
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: and say, when I'm at the appointment, I'll do that.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: The policy also allowed payment information to be collected later
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: by another team. And when customers asked whether they had
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: to provide it immediately, the agent had to say no,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: because that was integrity, right? They couldn't say yes. So
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: there was an easy out for the consumer. But then
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: there was one additional very important component that we identified.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: They wanted to get over 90%. The company wanted over
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: 90% collection. What we found was that 15%, approximately 15%
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: of interactions had legal or compliance rules that the company
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: set in place that a card could not be requested.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: So the denominator, right?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: So it was a denominator problem, right? It was only
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: through the real work of identifying and changing leaders out
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: all day long would never have fixed that problem.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Would never have changed that, yep.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: So we actually had to come from multiple lenses and
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: multiple approaches to solve the problem. Bottom up, top down.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: We had to bring in legal to review the policy
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: and see if we want to make changes. Business strategy
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: decisions around, do we want to make it so someone
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: could offer later? And they had to do it in
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: the first call, right? Like there were, there was a
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: lot more than what was within the controlled area of
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: the team that I was leading at the time. And
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: so what I distinguished there was this concept of controllable
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: and non-controllable items. And I think as a leader, your
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: job in part is to identify those, manage your team
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: and lead your team through the controllable items, set stretch goals,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: work towards them. But the non-controllables, I come up with
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: a way to communicate them out in a way that's
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: productive conversation.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: It's amazing.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Breakthroughs come through that. But yeah, I love that one.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: When we found the 15%, we're like, wait a minute.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: So they had all these rules and regulations that literally
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: contradicted each other and put limits on what they could.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: So somebody had this great idea, let's increase sales, but
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: never really looked at the rules and the structure that
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: was the foundation, right? Right.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: And the volume negotiated that impacted that. And I think
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: this goes to, we all know the saying, there's no
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: one silver bullet. right? And even the most simple workflow,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: collect credit card, ended up having four key paths towards
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: improving collection of work. And we got into the low
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: 80s percent and bounced around about three, four percent at
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: that point. It was relatively consistent. But it took time
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: to do that. We couldn't solve it overnight.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's amazing. Oh, my God. I could talk to
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: you for hours about all this stuff. The.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting, it's really interesting that these people go to,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: you know, you go to the Wharton School of Business,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: you go to Harvard, you go to, they're very smart intellectually.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And then when it comes to the real world application,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: sometimes there's such a disconnect with getting granular because they've got,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: they've learned through theories. They're not, and so now it's like,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: it's literally on the job training.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I think That's the key is there's very, very
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: important critical work that happens that's very cerebral in a business.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: And so when you talk about the Wharton and the
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Harvard and those, right, I think about that work, right?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: And it's a strategy component and then doing the research
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: on the go-to-market and things like that. But the actual
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: work that needs to be done to accomplish those visionary objectives, right,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: that requires hands-on engagement. And readers that won't go, and
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: there's an old, old management concept of management by walk around, right?
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: And it still applies today. In a business where you
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: can walk around, if it's remote, okay, well, what is
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: the engagement? Does someone know who their peer is? Do
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: they actually know anything about that peer or not because
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: they're not in the same room ever, right? And so
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: there are ways to measure And I go back to
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: culture when you talk about that.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: 100%. Yeah. And I think that is, well, that's another
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: whole area we can unpack is the culture and the
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: positive culture that people want. And some companies say they
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: want a good culture, but their actions and their words
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: are very disconnected and there's no congruency whatsoever. Alignments off
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: on all levels.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I agree. And one of the most fascinating conversations I've
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: had at too many companies is Um, and, and too
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: many leaders believe that culture is not measurable. Like they,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: like it's too soft. Like, you know, when you have it,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: you know, when you don't, but it's not measurable. And
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: if it's not, and there's an old saying, if you
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: can't measure it, you can't manage it. I have a
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: strong belief that culture is measurable. And so you have
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: to come up with ways to measure culture. Some, some
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: examples of that is, is there a, Do you measure
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: how often someone comes up with an idea and gives it,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: first of all, versus leaders come up with an idea,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: and then how often those ideas actually turn into actually
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: change in the organization or that the feedback gets back
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: to that person on why the change won't happen, right?
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: That creates openness of ideas. That creates free flow. That
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: creates diversity of thought, right? All those are good for culture.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: So that's just a quick example of one way you
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: can measure culture. Are conversations happening with team members? Are
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: you promoting from within? Are you only hiring from outside?
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: What's your attrition?
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: There are things that can measure culture and each culture
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: is unique. So not all the measurements are the same
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: across all companies, but there's some core ones that are.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: And I think if a team, if a company, a leader,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: if you're a new leader, a new solo entrepreneur building
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: your company, You're not thinking about those things when you
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: bring in your first employee, your fifth employee, your 10th employee.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: I think that you might find some struggles later because
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: there's not a clear path on how that person engages
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: with you and with the company and what you'll allow
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: from their ideas and input versus what you're going to say, nope,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: that's it because I said so, right?
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the old school. Well, just do it because
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I said so, yeah.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Well, in small companies, you can do that to a
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: certain extent, and then you can't because it doesn't work
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: any longer.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't work. And then you end up
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: as a solopreneur all over again and wondering how you
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: got back there. So, Daniel, thank you so much. The
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: conversation is so great, and it's so interesting, and I
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: appreciate you sharing your wisdom and your stories with us.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: If someone wants to get a copy of your book,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: first of all, where is it? Do you have a
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: copy of it?
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: I want to see it.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: My book is right here. There it is.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: The E3 Effect?
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the E3 Effect.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: It's a proven blueprint for building world-class teams. And E3
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: stands for Enable, Empower, and Endeavor. And you can find
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: it on Amazon, the E3 Effect, author Daniel Roth. And
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: check it out. If you're looking for very practical execution tools...
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: for no matter where you are in an organization, no
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: matter what level and no matter what size, I think
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: it's the right tool if you're looking for practical solutions.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Nice, right. And if someone wants to get ahold of
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: you because they want to hire you, how do they
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: get ahold of you?
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Debra. You can reach out to us
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: on our website, PangeaEffect, P-A-N-G-E-A-Effect.com. And you can also find
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: our book through the website, TheE3Effect. com.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Nice, nice. All right, Daniel, thank you again so much
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: for being a part of our podcast family. We appreciate
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: you and we look forward to having you back on
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: again in the near future.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Debra.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Any last words? Just let me go back real quick.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: I just want to make sure I do this. So
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: I always ask my guests at the end of the show,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: before we end the recording, is there one takeaway, one
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: bit of advice or gold nugget that you'd like people
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: to walk away with?
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. If growth is making everything harder, don't assume the
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: answer is just more effort. Look at what the business
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: has outgrown, where decisions live, how the knowledge moves, what
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: the measures reward, and which problems your good people are
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: just quietly absorbing. And go fix those conditions and execution
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: will become more reliable and growth will become easier.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Nice. Thank you. Thank you so much.