Latest / eCommerce Podcast / The Unexpected Challenges of Pitching Your Ecommerce Co on Dragons' Den | Millie Flemington-Clare

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The Unexpected Challenges of Pitching Your Ecommerce Co on Dragons' Den | Millie Flemington-Clare · eCommerce Podcast

0:04
Well, hello, my name is Matt Edmundson and you are listening
0:07
to the eCommerce Podcast.
0:10
I have been an eCommerce since 2002.
0:14
Yes, I have ladies and gentlemen, a very long time, and these days
0:17
I partner with eCommerce brands to help them grow, scale and exit.
0:21
And if you'd like to know more about how that works and if we could
0:25
actually work together, head over to our website, eCommerce Podcast net.
0:29
It's.
0:29
All there, but that's enough about me.
0:33
Today I am joined with a delightful.
0:37
Guest, Millie Flemington-Claire from Human Beauty.
0:40
Uh, Millie, it's fair to say that I've been looking forward to this conversation
0:44
since, um, well, since we spoke.
0:47
I think it was in February.
0:48
Uh, we, we sort of connected, didn't we?
0:51
And we, this is one of our found episodes.
0:53
So you run, uh, your own e-commerce business, but it's fair to say.
0:59
You've got a bit of a story, which is, um, well, I'm gonna say it's
1:05
nothing short of inspiring really.
1:06
So give us, uh, a little bit of background about you.
1:11
Um, yeah.
1:13
So I was born with a rare, um, condition called Cystinosis.
1:19
Um, it's a, like a condition that only affects around 2000 people in the world.
1:23
Um, and it mainly affects my, um, kidneys, but I was also tube fed until
1:29
I was 18 and I'm only four foot six.
1:33
Um, so I grew up, um, kind of desperate to fit in, in and out of
1:38
hospital and it was very apparent I was different to ev like my peers.
1:43
Um.
1:44
And I found who I am and my self-expression through makeup.
1:49
Um, but the beauty industry, um, isn't, and wasn't very inclusive or accessible.
1:57
Um, and that was kind of what made me really wanna start my own journey
2:01
in o owning my own, um, beauty brand and kind of making sure I rep be the
2:06
representation that I wish I'd seen.
2:08
When I was a teenager, um, because yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel represented
2:14
and I think it would've helped me discover who I am sooner if I had
2:18
Yeah.
2:18
seen more of me.
2:20
Yeah.
2:20
Well, fantastic.
2:21
Well, we're gonna dig into all of that, which I'm, I mean, we had a
2:24
brief, like I said, we had quite a bit of a chat, didn't we, in February.
2:26
And I, I just loved it.
2:27
And, and since you and I spoke, um, uh, those listening in the UK that watch a
2:32
certain TV show called Dragon's Den may, uh, either remember your, you go, oh,
2:37
that, that, that name sounds familiar.
2:39
Uh, dragons Den is the equivalent of Shark Tank, uh, in the US
2:43
and you were on there recently.
2:46
I was, yeah, aired on the 27th of February, so it's nearly been a month.
2:51
Month
2:52
Nearly been a month since you were on there.
2:53
And in fact, uh, it's series 22, episode eight, called into the BBCI player.
2:59
Uh, and it's the last episode in this current season.
3:03
Um, and so somehow, I mean, I, I know there are, there, there are,
3:10
there are some nuances to this journey, but you, you somehow got
3:12
onto Dragons Den, you pitched to.
3:15
Um, the, uh, dragons on there.
3:18
And, uh, to quote Deborah, you came away with the best deal that has ever been
3:22
given on Dragons Den because you retained all of your business, but got the help
3:25
of three dragons, um, at least on air.
3:28
You did.
3:28
Uh, the reality of that may or may not be different.
3:31
I don't want to presume.
3:32
Um, so let's, if you don't mind, let's start there.
3:35
How was that?
3:37
How was pitching or, or being on
3:39
Yeah, because I, I remember watching the show, right?
3:42
And there's this clip on the show where you are going up in the, in the lift
3:46
or the elevator for American cousins, uh, and you're going up and there's
3:50
that big deep breath that you take in.
3:51
And I'm like, oh, you, you looked like you were slightly nervous, and
3:56
this was kind of your way of just calming yourself for a little bit.
4:00
Yeah.
4:00
Yeah.
4:01
Um, well, the spoiler alert, the lift is a fake, is fake.
4:04
Oh, is it?
4:05
yeah.
4:06
And they, and, and, uh, um, yeah, so I, I was really, really nervous.
4:11
I mean, I've been watching the show since I was about seven.
4:14
Mm.
4:14
and it was always my dream to be on the show and.
4:17
Pitching and public speaking is a nerve wracking thing.
4:20
Yeah.
4:21
um, it had been a whole day of preparation and I'd been in and out of that lift,
4:26
to be honest about for, for 40 minutes.
4:28
Um.
4:30
Just do or film in all the different takes.
4:32
Yeah.
4:33
Yeah.
4:33
And they definitely keep you in the lift for a bit.
4:35
Just, you know, to build that, uh, that, that tension and the thing.
4:39
But yeah, that was my like like game time.
4:43
It's time, time to time to go and do my thing, um, and try to breathe.
4:47
'cause yeah, I knew I was about to do a. A pitch for like a minute
4:50
and a half, and when I pitch, I sometimes forget to breathe.
4:53
And I just thought, speed talk and then I just suddenly mid centered to go.
4:59
Um, so yeah, that it, it was, um, it's tv, isn't it?
5:03
Yeah.
5:04
um, I you don't, you don't think about these things when you watch
5:07
it, uh, for years actually like that.
5:10
It's a set ultimately and it is a TV show.
5:13
Um, the pitch was, um.
5:18
Exhilarating and terrifying.
5:20
Um, I, I, the relief of that, it was over.
5:25
I completely forgot, like at the end you have to like usually say, oh,
5:29
dragons, you've got some samples under your seat, or, you know, whatever.
5:32
And I kind of just did my pitch and was kind of like this, and they're like, oh,
5:36
are you gonna tell us what's under our
5:39
Ah, okay.
5:40
Oh yeah.
5:40
Oh yeah.
5:41
You know, you've got some products under your seat.
5:43
Um, and they made us do that.
5:46
All for catwalk when my brand is, is a makeup brand.
5:50
We, we don't, we not, we're not doing catwalks.
5:53
Um, so yeah, it was, it was an experience.
5:55
Um.
5:57
To say the very least.
5:58
And it was months, months of preparation that led to that moment.
6:03
Um, uh, but I was really happy in the end with how, you know, my pitch went.
6:08
Yeah.
6:09
I try not to, when I do pitches, I try not to like practice
6:12
like word for word script it.
6:14
Um, because if I mess up my brain doesn't work like that, I,
6:18
Right.
6:18
be like, I can't continue.
6:20
Uh, so it was different every time I practiced, but overall it went.
6:23
It went really well.
6:24
Um, and I was in there for about an hour and 20 minutes answering questions.
6:29
Um,
6:29
really?
6:30
Because it's like three minutes on the show, isn't it?
6:32
yeah, so I did my pitch.
6:34
They asked a couple questions to my models.
6:36
They left and then it was, yeah, about an hour.
6:39
Uh, I was in there.
6:40
So they cut an hour over an hour footage down to 13 minutes.
6:43
I think I got in the
6:44
Wow.
6:45
Wow.
6:46
And, uh, I mean, you said that you, it was your dream to go on there, and
6:51
I'm, I'm, I'm curious as to, you've started, you started this e-commerce
6:55
business, uh, human beauty, uh, which you mentioned a few years ago.
6:59
Uh, two years ago.
7:00
Uh, just over, just under two years, I think.
7:02
Isn't it?
7:02
Well, technically it was, um, it was 20.
7:09
2022. Um, 'cause I, I basically, it was, uh, just after COVID, I,
7:16
it'd been kind of in the works.
7:17
Um, and then I, um, got the opportunity to appear on a kinda documentary series.
7:23
Um, and they are, they have like about 10 million subscribers across the world.
7:27
So I was like, wow, I'm, I was just about to go traveling for a
7:31
few months, so I got a website up.
7:34
I didn't really have product, well, I didn't have product, physical product
7:37
with me and I was just like, I'll just put it up, go traveling and in case
7:40
people wanna pre-order, uh, you know, so that is technically when it started.
7:45
Um, but like really properly in the last year and a half, uh, is
7:50
when I've been actually doing it.
7:53
Yeah, no fair place.
7:54
So it is a fairly young business and so were you of the mind, um.
8:00
This is an opportunity to get on Dragon's Dentist, the show
8:03
I've always wanted to been on.
8:04
Or were you of the mind of, well actually this actually could be quite useful.
8:09
Um, whether or not I get the investment, I'm on BBC tv, there's PR that goes
8:13
alongside that, et cetera, et cetera.
8:16
Um, I'm, I'm kind of curious, what was your, what, what was
8:19
your reasoning to go on the show?
8:21
Uh, yeah, I, I mean, firstly, I said, it was, I kind of always, as a young
8:28
person, when I was like a kid wanting to own my business, that was like I.
8:32
made it if you, if you were on the show.
8:35
But yeah, ultimately whether I got, I I, I didn't need the investment.
8:40
Well, I didn't need the money.
8:41
Mm.
8:42
you know, they cut, they cut my last year of financials, so it made me look
8:47
like I had like 900 pounds in the bank.
8:49
But that, that ultimately, that just wasn't true.
8:53
Yeah.
8:53
I'D won.
8:54
60,000 pounds in grant funding and pitch competitions.
8:58
Yeah.
8:59
but the PR and you know, the being able to get out there in, in front
9:04
of a lot, a wider audience, um, and get my messaging and my purpose out
9:09
Mm.
9:10
ultimately the goal.
9:12
Um, you know, having mentorship and help from the dragons
9:15
were would, was also the goal.
9:17
But, um, you know, but having the idea of it being on national
9:22
TV was ultimately the main goal.
9:24
And so, uh, if, if I can ask what happened to the business then after
9:30
you, after the TV show was air.
9:33
Yeah.
9:33
So, uh, on the evening, uh, we, we, we had a, um, kind of of
9:39
thousands of people on our website.
9:41
I think overall we had about 20,000 people on the website,
9:44
um, which was, which was good.
9:46
Uh, not as many as I thought.
9:48
Hmm,
9:49
that space of time.
9:50
Um, but again, like it, it didn't really cross my mind that people
9:53
don't watch live TV anymore.
9:56
that's so true.
9:57
and no one watches, like, especially no one my age even has a TV license.
10:03
So watching BBC is not.
10:07
Not even on their radar.
10:08
Um, like half a million people that last year started paying for TV licenses.
10:13
Wow.
10:14
um, it, we grew on social media, but again, I think we
10:18
gained like 2000 followers,
10:21
Right.
10:21
which, you know, from mentors I'd spoken to at that had been on the show.
10:26
You know, five years ago that was like nothing.
10:30
Um, and we gained, we got lot, quite a few sales, like a couple hundred
10:34
sales, um, over the next, like that evening and the next few days.
10:39
Um, which all really great.
10:42
Um, I reached a whole new audience that I never thought I would
10:47
Mm-hmm.
10:47
demographic, uh, age demographic.
10:50
Uh, my age demographic probably went up by.
10:54
30 years.
10:54
20 to 30 years.
10:56
Um, so, you know, overall we did get, um, out there, um, but not particularly
11:04
out there to the people that I thought or I would've wanted to reach.
11:09
Yeah.
11:10
'cause yeah, then it, it, it, how we communicate with these people
11:15
and the customer service and all these things you don't think of
11:19
and processes before have now been.
11:22
Of a pain in the.
11:26
Yeah.
11:27
Yeah.
11:27
As you get.
11:28
Yeah, I, I can appreciate that.
11:30
I remember when we, um, when we launched our beauty website, um, I think I've
11:35
told this story before on the show, but we'd launched a beauty website.
11:38
I. And, um, in two, but this is, this is a long time ago.
11:44
This is 2006 when we launched the site, and we thought that by the end of the
11:50
year, um, so we had like four months to go until the end of the year, right?
11:55
So we thought in that four months, if we could do about
11:57
10,000 pounds worth of sales.
12:00
We were on track, you know, with our, what we predicted that, you know, we could
12:04
potentially do with some clever marketing.
12:07
We thought we could probably do about 50 grand in our first year.
12:11
So in the first four months, if we hit 10 grand, we'd be okay.
12:15
But we didn't do 10,000 pounds in sales in our first four months.
12:18
We did 400,000 pounds in sales in the first four months,
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and the result of that was.
12:27
Quite extraordinary.
12:29
So you have to rethink a lot of what you once knew, right?
12:32
So, and this is what you're finding out that actually all of a
12:35
sudden, I mean, managing a business which is rapidly growing is, is
12:39
fundamentally a wonderful problem to have, but it is still a problem.
12:45
And there are still things that you have to think about and you have to
12:48
deal with and you have to, you know, adapt to and so on and so forth.
12:52
And, um, it was just, I, I just remember that.
12:56
Phase.
12:57
Um, I mean, to be fair, I didn't have to deal with most of it because, uh,
13:00
we just did the website of things.
13:01
It was just great.
13:02
But it, it was, it was quite an extraordinary time.
13:04
And so I can see how, how you would have a few things that you now have to deal with.
13:10
Has the, has the momentum stayed or was it sort of a, a blip?
13:14
Uh, no.
13:15
Like this is the first time ever.
13:16
I've not had a single day without sales.
13:19
Hmm.
13:20
but again, it, I was slightly disappointed because I had in my head
13:26
figures that I'd known people in the
13:28
Yeah.
13:29
done versus what I had done.
13:31
Um, so although like.
13:34
Actually now I've taken a step back.
13:36
Um, this is amazing 'cause this is more than I've ever, ever made,
13:40
but it's still like, is it enough?
13:42
And are we, is the then like the next step and the future of my business that
13:47
Yeah.
13:48
um, you know, it wasn't this overnight thing that I kind of
13:52
my head thought it would be.
13:54
Um, uh, but we ha we are still having sales every day and ultimately.
14:01
people that are my target audience don't watch the show.
14:04
So it's now about resharing the clips and, uh, kind of, you know, trying to make
14:09
the most of the press on social media.
14:13
Yeah.
14:14
Yeah.
14:14
because the people I have reached, they don't have social media.
14:17
They don't even
14:17
Yeah.
14:18
particularly know how to use emails, a lot of them.
14:20
Um, um, so yeah, it, but it has, it's, it stayed, it obviously
14:25
the night of it was huge.
14:28
Um, but.
14:29
are ploting along, which is good.
14:32
It is interesting, isn't it?
14:32
I remember we had Lucy from Tom Jewelry on the show, and I. Her business
14:38
took a turn when Stacey Solomon was pictured wearing her jewelry.
14:43
I think she, I think Stacey was wearing it when she got married.
14:45
And to be totally full disclosure, I love Stacey.
14:48
Uh, I think she's in, my wife and I are always watching the TV shows.
14:52
Just think she's great.
14:53
Um, and again, if you're outside of the uk, Stacey is just,
14:56
she's a UK TV personality.
14:58
Who is, um, is just lovely.
15:00
So she's very real, isn't she, Stacy?
15:03
And, um.
15:05
Yeah, Lucy was talking about how she was photographed at
15:08
her wedding with her jewelry.
15:10
And so Lucy's whole Mo then became about using that in her social media.
15:16
It wasn't like the world picked up on the fact that Stacey was
15:20
wearing, um, Lucy's jewelry.
15:22
Jewelry.
15:22
Lucy had to tell the world,
15:24
uh, on, and I think she still does in many ways.
15:27
And I think, um, it used to be, I remember years ago, um, I. There was, oh,
15:35
what's the, there's a self tan product that I can't remember the name of.
15:41
It was super popular for a period of time.
15:44
And, um, the, I remember the brand wasn't really doing anything and then somebody
15:48
in the press took a picture of Victoria Beckham, you know, carrying a, a, a
15:52
carrier bag with a logo on the front.
15:54
And then all of a sudden everybody wanted that fake tank 'cause
15:57
Victoria Beckham was using it.
15:58
And I get that, that.
16:01
Influencer aspect is quite important, um, with, with famous influencer.
16:05
I, I, like you say, I think it's different now.
16:07
People don't read magazines, they don't really watch live tv.
16:09
It's all moved on.
16:11
Uh, and so I ge I, I see why you're probably in a phase now
16:16
where you can use those clips, I'm guessing, for social proof.
16:21
Right.
16:21
yeah.
16:22
Well, yes and no.
16:24
Okay.
16:25
technically we're not allowed.
16:27
Like you're not, it says you're not allowed to use clips from the show,
16:31
Okay.
16:32
promote your business,
16:33
Yeah,
16:33
we all know that every single business that has ever been on Dragons then
16:37
uses clips from the show and puts, you know, a big banner with pictures
16:41
on their website that says seen on.
16:43
Um, so yeah, there was like, there was businesses that were.
16:49
Breaking the rules of the, the, you know,
16:51
yeah.
16:52
that we'd been given before they'd even been on the show.
16:54
Mm-hmm.
16:55
so yeah, it's, I, am now going to use the clips.
17:00
It's just, um, I think it's more of a ask for forgiveness, not permission.
17:06
Situation.
17:07
Yeah.
17:07
Yeah.
17:08
do say that they're meant to approve every, any piece of content you ever post,
17:12
Yeah.
17:13
in relation to it.
17:14
Um, but yeah, I mean, how many ads have I have you seen from
17:18
Hmm.
17:19
fussy deodorant
17:20
Mm-hmm.
17:21
I. All those brands that have been on it.
17:23
Um, so yeah, it's now, you know, figuring out like how I, how I use
17:27
it, how I want to go about talking about it and sharing the clips.
17:32
'cause they're, believe it, they managed to cut any conversation about
17:36
my actual products out of the edit.
17:38
Yeah.
17:40
they spent like a whole hour talking about my mascara.
17:43
Um, uh.
17:45
I thought, oh, we'll do a little cute, uh, social media post, like with mascara
17:49
account, like how many times the dragon said the word mascara they didn't
17:53
say mascara once in the entire edit.
17:56
Um, and yeah, so there isn't actually much like product
18:02
Hmm.
18:02
stuff that I could even use to
18:04
Hmm.
18:04
technically promote your business.
18:06
Um, so yeah, it's just kind of being clever with how I, how I use
18:11
it and how I wanna go about next.
18:14
Yeah, which makes sense.
18:16
It's um, I'm curious, how did you deal?
18:18
You mentioned, um, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, Millie,
18:21
but you mentioned that you were a little bit disappointed with.
18:25
Both the exposure and I suppose the re like the, the resorting social media
18:29
followers and the, and the sales, I suppose a little bit a, a after drag.
18:33
You thought that would be bigger.
18:34
And, um, if I'm honest with you, every entrepreneur that's ever started a
18:39
business irrespective of whether they've been on Dragons Den, always wanted it
18:44
to be bigger and better than it was.
18:46
Um, have, have you dealt with that?
18:49
Uh, difficultly to be honest.
18:52
Um, I. It all became a bit overwhelming.
18:56
Um, on the night.
18:58
Everyone, you know, a perfectionist and like a lot of business owners,
19:02
like I had an idea in my head.
19:05
So when it fell short of it, um, I was disappointed.
19:08
And as much as people have good intention around me, they're
19:11
like, no, but it's amazing.
19:13
Like, look at this and, or, you know, I, I, all I could think
19:17
of is what wasn't in the edit.
19:20
Um, and obviously I'm the only one who knew what actually.
19:23
Was said and done.
19:24
And I had a, I also had a idea of what would've made the cut in
19:28
Hmm.
19:29
tv.
19:30
Um, so having as much as people meant well, the more people said,
19:34
oh no, but you came across so well, or you are doing amazing.
19:37
It kind of annoyed me more.
19:40
Right.
19:40
Um, but I've just been trying to take a step back and look at, you know.
19:45
The actual amazing achievements that we have got.
19:48
Hmm.
19:50
and taking a step back from social media and emails and
19:53
trying to find some kind of.
19:56
Balance between my work and my life, where that, where, where that starts and
20:01
that ends, um, in the last couple weeks.
20:03
Um, because yeah, I was becoming really overwhelmed with just the, um,
20:08
sheer amount of work because I've been packaging all the orders myself, I've
20:12
Right.
20:13
customers.
20:14
And, um, I ended up accidentally sending out, um, a few bits of faulty product.
20:20
and it's the first time this has ever happened.
20:22
I've ever had faulty product.
20:25
So we've got that.
20:26
The.
20:27
You know, we've got hundreds of people or like a hundred people,
20:30
their first experience is a bad one.
20:33
Um, and I put my heart and soul into these products and
20:37
I've never had to deal with it.
20:39
Um, and then having customers email me, almost like kind of attacking
20:43
in like I purposely sent them.
20:45
Terrible product.
20:46
Mm.
20:46
Um, it was really devastating and trying to like pick myself back up and see
20:52
how this continues was, you know, it's been hard, but um, trying to celebrate
20:58
the small wins has been a big help.
21:01
Yeah.
21:01
Yeah.
21:02
How did you, how did you approach that customer service problem?
21:06
Um, I've got a va, uh, through access to work who kind of helps
21:11
with my life admin and stuff.
21:13
Um, and at first I tried to tackle it all, which wasn't a good idea, um, because
21:20
again, I'm too close to the problem.
21:22
I'm too close to what I know it should be.
21:25
And, um, so at first, I, uh.
21:29
I was replying to emails all, all hours and I'd been bombarded
21:33
by them and I didn't have much patience for people, for people.
21:37
Um,
21:38
Especially mean people.
21:39
yeah, because I was like, you've watched me
21:41
Mm-hmm.
21:42
national tv, pour my crying on national tv, pour my heart and
21:47
soul out, then you email me being horrible and saying I'm disgraceful.
21:53
And, you know, using really.
21:56
Mean words, uh, almost like I've done it on purpose.
22:00
I'm trying to scam you.
22:01
Or people are, you know, really impatient for their parcels as well.
22:05
Um, like we've had that a lot people waiting more
22:08
Yeah.
22:08
days.
22:09
Um, e you know, um, so I then realized I very quickly needed to
22:14
outsource it and get someone else to.
22:17
That's not so close to it to
22:19
Yeah.
22:20
Um, because yeah, as I say, um, it was, I was taking it personally.
22:25
Um.
22:26
Yeah.
22:26
And you have to develop a little bit of a thick skin, I think in, in, in
22:30
eCommerce mainly because I think if you.
22:35
I am sure there is some proper name for this, which if I thought
22:39
about it, I, it would dredge it up from the back of my head.
22:42
But the, the interesting thing is if you buy something from a shop and you
22:46
then take it back to the shop, you appreciate that the person in front of
22:50
you was not the source of the problem.
22:53
Right?
22:53
But they're the person that can help you.
22:55
And you might be a little bit peeved at the shop 'cause you've got to
22:57
take it back and all that sort of stuff, but you, you genuinely.
23:02
Generally talk like a reasonable human being, right?
23:06
You take that per same person and you put them in a place where they become faceless
23:12
and their communication is digital.
23:14
Yeah.
23:15
Wow.
23:15
It's like the meanness, uh, sort of barometer gets turned up.
23:21
Does that mean there's, the switch goes all the way around and they say
23:24
the most extraordinary things, which they would never say face to face.
23:28
Um.
23:29
And so, yeah, I think you do have to, you know, be a bit thick skinned,
23:34
uh, in that.
23:35
And, and we've just come to realize, I think, 'cause my,
23:37
initially I would respond, I would ra rally against things like that.
23:41
I'd be like, well, if you can talk to me like that, I don't care.
23:43
I just genuinely don't care.
23:45
Uh, which is, which is probably not the most helpful response.
23:48
Um, and then I took it as a challenge to see if I could win them.
23:53
Do you know what I mean?
23:53
It's like, well, 'cause if I win them over.
23:56
Um, then actually the, they probably will become quite loyal customers.
24:01
Yeah,
24:01
Do you know what I mean?
24:02
Is, is, is sort of what we found.
24:03
And so then that became the challenge.
24:05
And the way that we did it was just said, listen, we're gonna call you
24:08
yeah.
24:09
this over the phone.
24:10
Right.
24:11
Uh, and that, that just changed everything because people are much
24:15
more sensible on the phone, uh, than they are on email, isn't know what
24:18
it is, put people on Twitter or on email, and they become lunatics.
24:22
It's just.
24:24
It
24:24
just draws it out of us, I guess.
24:26
yeah.
24:26
It's, um, yeah, it's been learning and even just like, even people using my
24:31
website and not, or even using my products and not knowing how to do the, what are
24:36
in my head is like the most simple thing
24:38
Mm-hmm.
24:39
world.
24:40
Um.
24:41
And just having to talk people, like talk people through things like that.
24:45
I'd never even had even imagined anyone would need help with.
24:50
Yeah.
24:50
Yeah.
24:51
So, yeah, it's, but it's been good and we have, you know, done that,
24:55
been able to win people over and actually, and even things of, like,
25:00
even things like realizing, oh, not to offer a refund as the first,
25:04
like a, a replacement and a refund.
25:06
Just say, we're gonna send you a. Replacement asap and
25:10
Yeah.
25:10
for a refund.
25:11
Yeah.
25:12
it only happened once with one, one lady that I did.
25:14
What you exactly.
25:15
You said I, I said, you know what, like if you can't wait, I said, I, I
25:19
explained to her three times that I was one person packing like 200 orders
25:24
and if she couldn't wait for it, uh oh.
25:26
Well I said like, do you mind bearing with me?
25:28
And, um, she just came back Meina and meina every time and said,
25:32
I don't, you know, you know, talking about my shipping stuff.
25:35
I said, you know what?
25:36
I said, if you can't wait, I'll give you a refund.
25:39
I was like,
25:40
It's not worth a headache.
25:41
Yeah.
25:41
it's 20 quid, she
25:42
Yeah,
25:43
I don't, I don't.
25:46
yeah, yeah.
25:47
I definitely don't need this in my life.
25:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:50
I I I appreciate that.
25:52
It's fascinating, isn't it?
25:53
'cause it sounds like you've gone through a lot then the last
25:55
couple, a big learning curve,
25:58
uh, with your econ business.
26:00
And it will just keep growing.
26:01
Millie, I mean, you're in, you're in the beauty industry, perhaps
26:04
one of the most competitive.
26:06
I'm, you know, I'm speaking from experience, one of the most
26:09
competitive sort of places to try and operate a business in.
26:12
You've got quite a unique niche.
26:14
You obviously you have a cause and this is, um, something which is
26:20
quite interesting in many ways.
26:22
You know, businesses that are built around a noble cause.
26:25
Um, and what that means, um.
26:29
Which is fine if you are somebody like Patagonia or Tom Shoes or somebody
26:33
that actually proves that they're doing the cause that they set out
26:36
to do, rather than just kind of, you know, greenwashing or cause washing
26:39
or whatever the, the phraseology is.
26:41
But obviously for you that this is a mission.
26:44
It's not just, uh, I, I mean it's nice to make money out of it, but you are doing
26:48
this because of a deep personal mission or sense of mission, I would've thought.
26:53
Yeah.
26:55
Is that right?
26:55
I.
26:56
Yeah, for sure.
26:57
And I have like much white, like bigger ambitions than, um, that have kind of
27:03
appeared as a result of this journey that I've been on so far with human
27:07
beauty in terms of like, I. Making a bigger change like in the beauty
27:12
industry, but also in any product based businesses in terms of accessibility.
27:17
'cause you know, ultimately we've got my makeup products, um, and my community.
27:22
But what, what is the core of.
27:25
I do is my story, which is so many other people's story and also my
27:31
kind of more wider for accessibility.
27:37
so yeah, it's, it's kind of a piece of hopefully a bigger, bigger puzzle.
27:44
Yeah, I, and I want to dig into this a little bit if I can, uh, with you, Millie,
27:48
but before I do, let me just do the quick, the quick ad break, uh, as we like to say.
27:54
Uh, if you're enjoying this conversation, if you run your own e-commerce business
27:57
like Millie, and you would like to join us, why not come and join in.
28:01
Our eCommerce cohorts.
28:03
We have one in the uk.
28:04
We have one in Australia and New Zealand, and we have a new one
28:07
actually starting in the US as well.
28:09
Uh, probably.
28:11
Summertime, 2025.
28:13
Um, and so yeah, if you're an e-commerce entrepreneur, uh,
28:16
and you want to come join in, basically it's a monthly zoom call.
28:20
We just get together with the E-com entrepreneurs, just trade stories, ideas,
28:23
and that's about, that's not about it.
28:25
There's a bit more to it than that, but you get the point.
28:26
You get to hang out with other e-com entrepreneurs and learn from
28:29
each other, and it's totally free.
28:30
It's pretty awesome.
28:31
Pretty rad.
28:32
Pretty cool.
28:32
Pretty rad.
28:33
I can't believe I've just said that.
28:34
A man of my age, uh, I've been hanging out with my kids too much.
28:37
Anyway, if you wanna know more about eCommerce Cohort, just go to the
28:41
website eCommerce Podcast dot net.
28:43
And who knows, I might see you on one of those calls.
28:47
So, Millie, let me, um, let's jump into this mission, uh, the, the
28:51
accessibility around products because, uh, being totally candid, it's not
28:56
something that has affected me.
29:01
Um, and so.
29:02
I, I have to work hard to think about accessibility, if that makes sense.
29:08
And, um.
29:09
I remember years ago when, you know, the web started becoming a thing and everybody
29:14
was just like, in the code you have to put like, um, uh, alt tags on images.
29:18
So if someone who's partially bind or blind is using your website, they
29:23
understand what the image is and you go, well, this, this makes all the sense in
29:25
the world why this should be a standard.
29:27
Right.
29:28
Even things like contrast, you know, if the colors aren't too distinguished,
29:32
then it can affect people, um, visually.
29:35
I mean, I'm just an old man now, so I have to wear readers.
29:38
So, you know, I don't, I'm not a big fan of tiny fonts, but that's, that's about
29:41
the limit in, in some respects where.
29:45
I don't see it in experience.
29:47
You, you do on a fairly regular basis and you, you've done things
29:51
which I think are quite remarkable.
29:53
Like, I, I mean, I was joking before we hit the record button, I think about
29:56
mascara and how I'm, I'm not brilliant actually at, at, at, at, I'm, I'm not
30:00
a knowledge base on it, but you've done something quite unusual with the
30:04
mascara, which is, I guess why they talked about it for an hour on Dragon's Den.
30:08
Yeah.
30:08
Yeah, I think, um, it was a mixture between.
30:12
Uh, in terms of them talking on Dragon Stand, I think it was
30:15
a mixture between what it was.
30:17
Um, I do, I it is like the product that a lot of people talk about.
30:21
Um, 'cause it has the big, the, you know, the most amount of unique selling points.
30:25
So we've got our anti-roll packaging, um, which I.
30:28
Ultimately is just square packaging.
30:30
But I talk about, um, like incremental innovation has just small tweaks
30:36
to existing products that are, um, thoughtful design considerations that
30:41
then make it better for everyone.
30:42
Um, 'cause until you start thinking about it, you don't realize how many
30:45
products in a makeup bag, like round
30:48
Mm.
30:48
You know, if you're a com you go, you do your makeup on, the commute, on the
30:51
train, and you then you have to do that awkward roll under the, under the chair
30:55
and have to get in between people and be like, sorry, can I get my product?
30:59
So it is like accessible design ultimately benefits everyone.
31:02
And if you look around you, there are, there are things that been
31:05
designed for disabled people that actually have just made it into the
31:09
mainstream 'cause it's just good design.
31:11
Um, I do think they spoke about my mascara a lot as well, because.
31:18
Peter Jones isn't gonna pick up a pink heart shaped product
31:21
and be like, I love this.
31:23
This is this.
31:27
MAs green.
31:30
Arguably masculine.
31:32
Um, so I, and then the, the, the rest of the dragons kind of ran with it.
31:37
Peter said, this is your product.
31:38
And they
31:38
Yeah.
31:39
with it.
31:40
Um, 'cause like our eyeshadow pellet has QR codes, or now we're
31:44
gonna put navi lens codes on them, uh, which are basically a QR code.
31:47
But Navi lens are, um, slightly different designs.
31:50
So people who are visually impaired or blind, um, you can scan the QR code.
31:54
From a much further distance, from angles, that type of thing.
31:57
And it leads to audio, visual descriptions, uh, of the shades.
32:01
And all of
32:01
Hmm.
32:02
our eyeshadows are kind of placed in positions that make sense.
32:05
'cause again, eyeshadow, palettes just are plopped around.
32:08
Whatever looks better.
32:10
Um.
32:11
So, yeah, it's the, and it is also talk about accessibility, not just
32:14
from, you know, design features, but price, uh, is often forgotten about.
32:19
Um, we're seeing more, some brands bring out like techie devices.
32:24
Um, like there was a tech device to apply lipstick and it's basically
32:28
a gimbal, uh, camera gimbal, but apply that you can put lipsticks in.
32:33
Oh
32:33
but it costs, it costs $200.
32:36
wow.
32:37
it can only be used with this brand's.
32:39
Specific mascara, which is about eight times the price of a normal
32:43
Right.
32:44
which then create, uh, not mascara lip lipstick, which
32:47
then creates forced loyalty.
32:49
Um, 53% of disabled people are unemployed, um, and it costs on average
32:54
1200 pounds a month, more just to live and exist as a disabled person in the
32:59
Really.
32:59
Yeah.
33:00
Wow.
33:01
and it's a really scary place for my community right
33:03
now with all the government
33:05
Yeah, it is.
33:06
I mean, yeah, if we were political podcasts, we, I mean,
33:09
I would rock and roll on this.
33:10
I mean, it's ridiculous in many ways, but, um.
33:14
that's important.
33:15
That price, uh, is also taken into consideration when we
33:18
talk about accessible products.
33:21
So let me ask you a question then, milli, if I can, I, I run econ businesses,
33:25
um, and I, I know many people listening to the show run econ businesses.
33:31
What I mean, you, you of beyond the price aspect of it and I, I'm,
33:36
I don't quite know how to help
33:40
with pricing.
33:43
Other than give discount to pricing.
33:46
But then how do you, how do you do that in a way that is equitable and fair?
33:49
I, I, that's gonna take a little bit of thought, but, um,
33:55
how do, for someone like me that runs eCommerce businesses, um, that.
34:02
I, I think that's probably fair to say.
34:03
We all have a real heart to do the right thing.
34:06
Some people don't.
34:07
And I get, you know, and, and, and if that's you, please
34:09
don't listen to the show.
34:10
Uh, you should probably turn it off now.
34:12
Um, but we Do, you know what I mean?
34:13
We have a real heart in some respects to do the right thing.
34:17
Um, but we don't know what we don't know if that makes sense.
34:21
And so where's a good place for us to start?
34:26
What's some of the things that we should think about maybe is a better question
34:28
when it comes to round accessibility.
34:30
Um, well, I would say to follow, especially for like eCommerce websites,
34:35
social media accessibility, there's someone on LinkedIn called Jamie Shields.
34:41
Okay.
34:41
he calls himself the blind Rhino.
34:44
Um,
34:44
Okay.
34:45
he does a lot of resources and posts about, um, whether that be,
34:52
um, like social media captions, alt texts, websites, contrasts.
34:58
Um, and his, his information is usually in infographics and it's
35:03
so easily digestible and it's, um, entertaining and, um, yeah, it's not.
35:10
It's easy to kind of take in as someone who has no
35:14
Yeah.
35:14
in accessibility.
35:16
I've learned a lot from him.
35:17
Um, and 'cause he, uh, talks about accessibility and he's blind.
35:22
Um, and it's kind of again, like things that you wouldn't even think
35:26
about, um, like having sentence casing on your hashtags, for example.
35:32
Um, so having, if it was, um, I dunno, uh.
35:37
Eco eCommerce Podcast, it'd be having, um, uh, capital letters on each, um, word.
35:45
Yeah.
35:45
And that's because of the way screen readers read it
35:48
Yeah.
35:48
not use overusing emojis.
35:50
Like some people use emojis as like bullet points and things like that.
35:54
Um, so there's little things that again, like I wouldn't have ever thought about.
35:59
Um, but it's in a way that you can digest it.
36:03
Really easily.
36:04
Mm
36:05
and I think ultimately that, that people in my community are just
36:09
happy that people wanna learn and
36:11
mm.
36:11
we know that you are gonna make mistakes.
36:13
Like I've made mistakes, especially when I, with my website, the first
36:17
round time round when I used an accessibility widget, um, it, it blew up.
36:23
Overnight on LinkedIn.
36:24
Um, and it was kind of reached the experts who I, I didn't even know were out there.
36:30
I thought I was doing a great thing.
36:31
And it was like, yeah, 80,000 impressions, hundreds of comments.
36:36
Oh wow.
36:37
and it's a very different world, England versus us in terms of web accessibility.
36:41
Mm.
36:42
but it's all about humility and learning and you know, putting your
36:46
hands up and saying, you know, I. I didn't know or I made a mistake.
36:49
Uh, and it's what you do that,
36:52
Yeah,
36:53
learn,
36:54
yeah.
36:54
No, that's a fair comment.
36:55
And I think that's very wise lessons for all of us in that really.
36:59
Um, because like you say, uh, I think just trying to improve, just trying
37:03
to be better and, and actually just.
37:06
Real people who struggle in real different ways.
37:08
And, and actually it doesn't take a lot from our point of view to, to make it
37:13
a whole lot easier for a whole bunch of people, you know, with what we do.
37:16
And I, I think that's fair play.
37:19
What's the future?
37:19
Hold, Millie, what does, uh, what's, what's the next few
37:23
years of human beauty look like?
37:25
Where are you hoping it all goes to?
37:27
Yeah, that's the, uh, that's the, that's the question that, um, is going
37:32
around in my head a lot at the moment.
37:35
Um, 'cause ultimately I need to making enough that I can pay myself is, uh.
37:41
Number one.
37:42
Um, as I said in this, the show, I, I wanna be the Fenty
37:45
Beauty for accessible beauty.
37:47
Um, I do believe that the beauty industry is gonna catch on like
37:51
the adaptive fashion, world.
37:54
It, it boomed and is a multi-million pound, maybe
37:57
billion pound, uh, industry now.
37:59
Um, and I wanna be the one leading.
38:02
Mm.
38:02
way for that.
38:04
Um, and yeah, being known for accessible beauty, I want to start my other, uh,
38:10
business, um, which I talk about making much wider change in terms of some
38:16
kind of, um, you know, certification.
38:18
Uh, we we're basically gonna do a certification for products.
38:22
Um, 'cause that right now there's no legislation.
38:25
That means businesses have to be accessible when it
38:28
Right.
38:29
There's legislation for venues.
38:31
Kind of.
38:32
Um, and ultimately we right now going to a business sale, it's, you
38:38
know, it is the right thing to do.
38:41
Um, it's, I want to make a bigger change in terms of, uh, consulting with
38:46
businesses and helping businesses develop products that are accessible from.
38:51
The start,
38:52
Yeah.
38:53
because we're such a huge minority, the world's largest minority,
38:57
and ultimately the, the one that anyone can become a part of.
39:01
Um, and you say about your, your gases and stuff that when I talk about
39:04
disability, it's such a huge, huge, um, umbrella term, like age related,
39:08
macular degeneration would come under that, uh, in terms of accessibility.
39:13
So accessibility really affects everyone.
39:16
Um.
39:17
So that is the plan.
39:18
I, I would, I need to get an investor basically as well.
39:22
Um, and hopefully one that shares my values in terms of making a
39:27
change and someone in the beauty industry, hopefully, because it's
39:31
such a closed door industry still.
39:34
Everyone does.
39:35
Everyone is harsh.
39:35
Harsh.
39:36
No one wants to share anything really.
39:39
Um, so
39:41
Yeah, the beauty industry, I think in some respects run by major core.
39:46
I, I appreciate there are, what I'm about to say is not true of everybody because
39:50
that would be an unfair thing to say, but I think the way that I viewed the beauty
39:55
industry was I was glad to get out of it.
39:58
Um, uh, when we, when we did, because it is, it is horrific in
40:04
some respects on so many levels.
40:05
I remember, um, reading the stat that my daughter, who instantly has just turned
40:11
18, uh, but she wasn't 18 at the time.
40:14
Um, she would see around 3000 images a day
40:19
through.
40:21
TV through social media, through magazines, through posters, and out
40:27
of those 3000 images, she would see every single one of them would've
40:30
been photoshopped in some way.
40:32
So it, it's this industry which presents an unreality, which is so far distorted
40:38
from what is actually going on.
40:40
I think it's criminal in many ways.
40:42
Um, and it was like you, I, I felt the need to sort of.
40:48
Challenge that, uh, when I was in the beauty industry and it's not easy.
40:54
So I, I think good on you for doing it because I think
40:57
it's a competitive industry.
40:59
I think it definitely needs challenging.
41:01
I think there is so much wrong with it, and there are some.
41:04
Corporations who I think should be taken to task.
41:07
Uh, but you know, that's just me, you know?
41:09
I'll get off my soapbox now, Millie, but I, I, I think I, I think good on
41:13
you for doing it and, and well done.
41:14
And I, and keep going because I think it'll make a
41:17
difference to people, you know?
41:19
And, um, and if you can make a living out of it, great.
41:22
Uh, I, I, I think that would be great.
41:24
the ultimate thing.
41:25
Like I think if I didn't get messages every day from people telling
41:29
me important what I'm doing is.
41:31
And how game changing it is.
41:34
And thank you.
41:34
And you know, from that was ultimately the best thing that came from Dragons
41:37
then so far, is the messages I receive from people telling me how much
41:42
the representation and me speaking up means to hundreds of people.
41:47
Um, if it wasn't for that, you know, because you could say, you know, a lot
41:51
of people see it, it's just makeup, but it's so much more than that.
41:54
If it wasn't for all that love, I probably, I have even, I have
41:58
thought about giving up and.
42:01
Yeah.
42:01
into my policy style thing.
42:04
'cause the beauty industry is so, toxic and who, who you know, not what you know.
42:10
And it is
42:10
Hmm.
42:10
so many barriers to entry, but I'm not giving up yet.
42:14
No, don't definitely keep going.
42:16
And, um, I, I, I keep telling us your story 'cause I think
42:20
it's, it's super inspiring.
42:22
Millie, if people wanna reach you, if they want to connect with you, what's
42:25
the best way for them to do that?
42:27
I.
42:28
Uh, yeah.
42:28
On LinkedIn, it's Millie Flemington-Claire, um,
42:33
uh, through my Instagram.
42:35
It's @humanbeautyldn.
42:37
And we have a contact to us, uh, form on my website at www.humanbeauty.co uk.
42:43
Fantastic.
42:44
We'll of course link to all of those in the show notes and if you found our
42:49
conversation helpful, uh, today, then make sure you are subscribed to the newsletter.
42:53
'cause all of the notes, links and stuff will come in the
42:55
newsletter as well as a bit more.
42:57
Deep dive into this sort of stuff.
42:58
We always try and throw a lot more extra value into the newsletter.
43:01
So if you want to know all of those little bits, uh, make
43:04
sure you're subscribed to that.
43:05
But Millie, thank you.
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Uh, one thing I should probably ask you actually before we close out the
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show, um, I like to ask guests, I think I mentioned this to you, I like
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to ask guests for a question which I then will go and weigh and, and answer
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on social media, just slowing down my words to make sure I phrase that right.
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Uh, what's your question for me?
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Um, if you had, uh, one piece of advice for someone kind of in my.
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Position starting out in a competitive, competitive industry, uh, what
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would your advice be in terms of like growing and keeping going?
43:44
Fantastic.
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Well, I will answer that question.
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If you wanna know how I'm gonna answer it, come follow
43:47
me on LinkedIn, Matt Edmundson.
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Uh, and I will, I will post the answer there.
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But Millie, it's been an absolute joy and a real treat, um, chan to you.
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And thank you so much and I wish you every best, uh, every best.
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I wish you the best with every end ever.
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Uh,
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uh, going forward.
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It's, it's, it's lovely to see, um, actually.
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People wanting to use business to make a difference rather than just
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people wanting to use business to make a shared load of money.
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Not they have.
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I don't have necessarily an issue with that, but I think actually thinking
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about the human cost and the human benefit on the way is super important.
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So thank you for reminding us, uh, of that.
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Thank you for having me.
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Well, there you go.
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That's it from me.
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That's it from Millie.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.
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I'll see you next time.
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Bye for now.