Latest / Legal Late Night / The Great Canadian Invasion: Employment Law, Podcasting Tips & Hockey Trivia

Transcript

The Great Canadian Invasion: Employment Law, Podcasting Tips & Hockey Trivia · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For my monologue today, I'll be covering a bar Association ethics opinion. That is actually interesting. Wild. I know. In the interview we've got two guests from the great White North, Stuart Rudner, an employment lawyer from Ontario, and Mark Robins, a law firm marketing specialist from Alberta. In the current program, we're talking hockey. I didn't know what else to do with a pack of Canadians though. Now let's talk about a different kind of ethics opinion. (00:46): In late October, the DC bar released Ethics Opinion 391 and they've been on a little bit of rural here. I like the DC Bar ethics opinions, opinion 388 about using generative AI was pretty darn good and covered some logistic questions that I haven't seen other ethics opinions cover, but this 1, 390 ones titled Lawyers and Law Firms that contemplate agreeing with governments to conditions that may limit or shape their law practices Ripped from the headlines, the opinion identifies three major issues with such deals. The first relates to conflicts of interest. Some interesting notes here from the opinion, and I'm quoting right now, the current position of the US Department of Justice, however, is it a private lawyer's adversity to any element of the federal government constitutes a conflict with the entire executive branch, if not the entire US government. That means that you can't get out of a conflict simply by arguing that it's just a single agency with whom you potentially signed a deal, not the whole government. (01:47): So let's shut that loophole down. Potential loophole. The opinion also suggests that it may not be possible to acquire a conflict waiver from a client where terms of a deal are unclear or could be changed unilaterally by the government. The second issue is the restriction on a lawyer's right to practice under such deals. Rule 5.6 B in DC prohibits lawyers from making agreements in which a restriction on the lawyer's right to practice is part of the settlement of a controversy between parties, which the jurisdiction itself takes a pretty broad view of what's asking about this is that not only is the attorney accepting the deal affected by this prohibition, but so is the attorney, the government attorney, the government lawyer in this case who brokers the deal, they're potentially also committing an ethics violation. The third and last issue is reflective of the professional independence of a lawyer. (02:44): Effectively, this means that the lawyer must be the one to make the decision without taking on a client or not or decide not to take on that client as well as what type of work is undertaken for the client. And to all this, I say it's about fucking time here. I was thinking that bar association's ethical boards were just going to let democracy and the rule of law die a slow and painful death. Hopefully more ethics opinions like this will follow. Though I understand why DC was the first given its proximity to the operations of the federal government, but these deal issues have been on the board for a while now. Now lemme pause for a second here. If you're a Trump supporter lacking critical thinking skills or just a rich asshole who doesn't give a fuck, I'll spell it out for you. The DC bar is saying that the deals law firms are making with the Trump administration are likely a breach of attorney ethics. (03:41): Of course, they're not saying that directly in this ethics opinion because lawyers now the question becomes what happens next? The first part of that query is whether this dissuades some law firms from agreeing to Trump's dirty deals. Those have seemed to slow down anyway, and part of this needs to have been motivated by the fact that incoming hires did not like those deals very much. Of course, all that's probably impossible to really know, but I'm hoping the threat of an ethics investigation at least makes attorneys think twice about doing this. The second part of that query is whether bar associations are going to do anything more than write ethics venues and cross their fingers. As I said before, deals have already gone down. This is not new. Private and governmental lawyers have been involved. So do bar associations stack up and launch investigations? And that doesn't even speak to the multiple ethics violations that Trump's DOJ attorneys are cooking up on the regular featuring frivolous lawsuits and doctorate evidence. (04:42): If there was ever time to stand up for the rule of law, it would be right. Now, this is not a drill homies. The country is in the grips of a fascist administration that daily engages in unprecedented corruption, abject cronyism and lawless disregard. Attorneys are uniquely positioned to speak out more should be doing so, yeah, it's not just bar associations and legal ethics organizations that have been taking their sweet ass time. Republican politicians have been complicit in turning their party over to abject nazim, rolling over in an oversight role that they should be pursuing with Zeal. Many of them are lawyers. The Roberts Corps has been an active participant helping Trump to dismantle the country bit by bit with heinous rulings like Citizens United allowing undue influence over elections. And while an active constitutional crisis is ongoing, the court is busy using its shadow docket to allow Trump to do basically whatever the fuck he wants without having to give their reasoning as to why he can do it. (05:46): The supposed top jurist in the country and some of his peers on the court are fucking cowards. Law firms that made deals with Trump have also sold out their country. Small firms and solo lawyers in the Maine have not said enough. They can be active agitators against the criminality of this version of the federal government in their own communities. Though I have been impressed with the work of federal and state lower court justices who have been aggressively ruling against Trump oversight, and some of those judges, as well as some military personnel have actually quit their jobs to speak out. Kudos to them. So you're probably thinking at this point, look at this asshole liberal from Massachusetts. He doesn't even like Republicans. Never have. I've voted for Republicans, voted for Democrats registered independent. The thing is that this is not a Republicans versus Democrats issue. This is a fascism versus anti-fascism issue just like World War ii. (06:46): Remember that only this time, unfortunately. Where are the access powers? The most patriotic thing you can do at the moment is to speak out against an administration run by a traitor's, felon, hellbent on destroying democracy in exchange for his own personal gain. I want to be on the right side of history. It's the question of right or wrong, not of political affiliation. The thing that strikes me out Trump is how many Americans have been willing to give over everything This country has stood for. A washed up game show host who actively shits his pants, falls asleep on the job and probably sucked Bill Clinton's dick allegedly. Actually, that's likely not true, but I am here for the memes. It might've been a horse anyway. There's nothing redeeming about Trump. He's a sexual predator, a liar and a thief. But I would've thought that the Antichrist or the Manchurian candidate would've been at least a little more appealing. (07:42): Now, I am hopeful that the tide is starting to turn. The last election cycle saw the Republicans get their asses handed to them, turned around on crazy margins. The Republican redistricting effort across country seemed to have stalled out. The Texas gerrymandering was just overturned in court. Other states haven't engaged, but even if the Republicans can get through those gerrymanders is probably not going to be enough because the predictions are based on past election results that aren't holding up in the status quo. What are the most recent numbers? Those say that the vast majority of Americans actually don't like fascist pieces of shit like Steven Miller and Tom Holman trying to control their lives would've been fucking good if people had sniffed that shit out before the last presidential election. But I digress. Of course, the problem is that these very same people were just given power. (08:39): So here's another big issue. Probably the biggest issue, let's say the Democrats fucking smoke Republicans and gain control of the House and Senate in the midterms, which is going to happen unless the elections are rigged. And let's say they impeach and remove Trump, or let's say that Trump doesn't get beached convicted, removed, and he just runs again in 2028. The Republicans nominate him because there's finalist acts of shit in this hypothetical and in real life, and he loses. Does this motherfucker leave the White House? My guess is no, because he attempted a coup before alongside his army of loser virgins and violent criminals. What happens then, especially as the Trump administration has continued to be allowed to get his hooks into the military and fund ice at a massive rate, abolish those motherfuckers and further its control over the DOJ, there may not be an end game. The end game may already have passed, and the sooner we can start grappling with that specific problems as Americans and preparing for it, the better. I, for one, am not enjoying the second helping of the Gilded Age turned up to 11 alongside a heaping serving of white supremacy and Idiocracy. It truly is the dumbest timeline. On that note, let's bring in our Canadian friends who don't have to deal with any of this bullshit. The lucky fuckers. That's right. It's Mark, robs and Stewart Rudner. Up next. (10:13): Welcome back everybody. I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. So I am just going to slowly sip on some Tim Horton's iced coffee. Now I'm just fucking with you. That's crazy. I don't even drink coffee, but I am talking about Tim Hortons because we've got Canadians on the show today. It's going to be great. So let's get two at a, how was that? Was that good? Stuart Rudner (10:37): Jared? You could fit in perfectly here. We would welcome you with open arms. Jared Correia (10:42): Thank you. If things continue to go the way they do in the US I may be making my way up there. Alright, so as you can see, we got two guests today. If you're on the YouTubes, which is exciting. Our first guest is Stuart Rudner, who's the managing partner at Rudner Law in Toronto, and we've also got Mark Robins, the CEO at Lawyer Locate, who is Bedecked in his Toronto Maple Leafs gear. Very excited. Mark Robins (11:08): Yeah. Well, we're going to make you a Leaf fan and we're going to make you a hockey fan before the show is over. So just check it out. I know that's the start. That was the start. Stuart Rudner (11:16): You're not going to jump in here, Jared, please do not become a Leaf fan. I want you to be a hockey fan, but there are lots of other good teams to cheer for. Mark Robins (11:25): Yeah, that's Stuart. Don't let 'em deceive you. Okay. There's a reason why it's called Leafs Nation in Canada. Jared Correia (11:33): Oh, there are a lot of Make the Leafs fans. Stuart, who should I like? You should go Stuart Rudner (11:39): Pitch me. We've got a rule in our family, which I'm sure Mark will love. It's a BL, anyone but leaves. Jared Correia (11:46): Wow. Okay. Stuart Rudner (11:48): That's what most of the loser teams say about the leaves. So Jared, as you can tell, we can probably do this for half an hour. So I'll take the last word just because why the hell not? Jared Correia (11:57): Yes. Stuart Rudner (11:57): If you want to cheer for a team that hasn't won a Stanley Cup in about six decades, oh my Jared Correia (12:03): God. Stuart Rudner (12:03): Wow. Mark Robins (12:04): Cheer A team is second total number of Stanley Cups in the NHL. That's the leap, Stuart Rudner (12:11): As you can tell. We can keep going, but we'll save that for another time. Jared Correia (12:15): Alright, let me, so we will do more hockey talk a preview everybody. I got even more hockey talk now. I feel like we shouldn't talk about the World Series. Or should we? For listeners who are unaware, the Blue Jays just lost a classic seven game series to the Dodgers. I was rooting for the Blue Jays as probably many people in the United States were, because the Dodgers have won three out of the last five World series or whatever. You want to do a little breakdown, you want to get some of your emotions out, feel free. Sure. Mark Robins (12:52): Okay, I'll jump in. Mark Jared Correia (12:54): Is still salty. So I think Mark should start, Mark Robins (12:57): And I'm not afraid to admit that I'm a hardcore Blue Jays fan, but I'm also, I like to think a good observer of professional sports. I take my fair share of shots at the NHL as Stuart knows by following my socials. But I thought, and there was so many blatant errors on the field by the officials. We talked in the green room. One of the big ones for me was the dead ball. That's a ground rule double every day long. You can Google it. You'll find that every time that's happened and it's happened more often than you realize, it's always been ruled to ground rule double. That would've changed the game. The strike zone was a joke for the Js that missed call on the, was it a strike? Was it a ball that got bobett out on first and I could go on and on and on and on. Do I believe going seven games was a financial move? Absolutely. Oh wow. Absolutely. This is great. I think that there's no doubt in my mind that, listen, not Rob Manfred. Yeah, well yeah, please. Yeah. Get a commission that actually understands baseball. That'd be a good move. I got an idea. You can have Beman. That's all right. Pass hard pass. Jared Correia (14:16): Alright, Mark Robins (14:16): That's Stuart. Jared Correia (14:17): What, Stuart, you're not as big of a baseball fan, right? Are you over this already or are you still a little bit Stuart Rudner (14:25): Hurt? I'm over. I grew up in Montreal. I used to cheer for the expos back when Montreal had a team, and I never quite got over the fact that we lost them. So as I said in the green room, I've watched more baseball in the last three weeks, in the last three decades, and I jumped on the bandwagon. I'm not afraid to admit that I am nowhere near as salty or cynical as Mark. I mean, yeah, there are some bad calls, but we get far more bad calls in hockey than I saw in baseball. But honestly, as I said, you could not have scripted a more exciting World series, including a more exciting game. Seven. Every time I tuned out to go watch hockey, I'd come back and the script had totally flipped. Jared Correia (15:05): Yeah, Stuart Rudner (15:06): That's crazy. I was really hoping that Jays would pull it out. That would've been fantastic. But I mean, that was just great baseball and it has renewed my interest in the game after many decades of pretty well ignoring it. Jared Correia (15:20): Bobette, Vladi Guerrero, proud members of my fancy baseball team for many years. Good job guys. Have you guys seen the new Montreal Expos documentary on Netflix? Who killed the Stuart Rudner (15:32): Expo watching it? Yeah, I got to watch that. It's really good. That was pissed. Jared Correia (15:36): Yeah. Stewart is an expo expos fan Stuart Rudner (15:39): Who killed the expos, Jeffrey, that's what I want to find out. All I know is I like the fact that UPI reemerged as a mascot of the Canadians because I kind of thought he would disappear into obscurity, but tremendous ma mascot. Love that. I'd love to know what happened because that was sad. And the expos got screwed because of the strike. They would've won the World Series back a long, long time ago. Jared Correia (16:02): Yeah, they were nasty in 94. All right, let's do a little bit of legal stuff. I suppose we should, Stuart, thanks for coming on. Tell people a little bit about what you do. Stuart Rudner (16:16): Yeah, well look, first of all, I know we're kind a few minutes in already, but Jar, thank you for having me. I got to say I love, oh my pleasure. I've loved, I know you've had a number of podcasts. I've liked each one, but I love each, Jared Correia (16:26): Someone would would say too many. Stuart Rudner (16:28): I'm not in that group. So here's where I am. I realized about two weeks ago that I subscribed to way too many podcasts. I think my backup is about 40 hours, so I had to start going through and unsubscribing, and I can honestly say that you made the cut and I will continue to listen to yours. I was going to say, we might've been first on list. Let's get rid of this. No, you're the top of the list. Honestly. I love that. I love the show. So thanks for having me on. And in terms of who I am, what I do, I've been practicing the law. I hate saying this for like 26 years now, which makes me feel old. Started off at a big firm. Now I've got my own firm, Rudner Law, and all we do is employment law. So we work with employers and employees, including a lot of employers based in the US who have operations in Canada and don't realize that we're not the 51st state when it comes to employment law. So a lot of our clients are American based. And what I love about employment law is I'm dealing with real people, real issues. I've made some great friends over the years. A lot of friends have become clients, a lot of clients have become friends. But yeah, all we do is employment law. And fortunately it keeps us pretty busy. The 51st state, I mean, who would've come up with such a Jared Correia (17:45): Crazy idea? There are provinces for God's. Alright, how'd you get into employment law? What was it about it that was appealing to you? Stuart Rudner (17:56): Oh wow. Okay, so I don't want to take the next 20 minutes, but so I was one of those weird people who when I was 14, knew what I wanted to do with my life. I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. No, Jared Correia (18:05): Is this real? Stuart Rudner (18:06): This is real. Jared Correia (18:07): I say this all the time on the podcast, I'm like, who is like 10? And is like, I want to be an employment lawyer. It Stuart Rudner (18:13): Was you. So no, I thought I was going to be a criminal lawyer to be more specific. And you guys are, I think both old, well, you are both old enough to remember this. This was all primarily based on the TV show, LA Law. This was my motivation. I was going to drive around into a convertible and argue death row cases, even though we don't have death row in Canada. As I later figured out you were Corbin Berson, that was you. I was more of a, oh god, what was the other guy? The really the younger, better looking litigator on the show. Jared Correia (18:47): I know the actors. I don't know any of the lawyers' names. Stuart Rudner (18:50): Great. Anyways, I digress. So I was going to be a criminal lawyer, and growing up in Montreal, I just needed to do an undergrad degree. I didn't care what it would be. I just had to get to law school. Someone said, oh, McGill has a grade industrial relations program. And I said, sure. I had no idea what industrial relations was, but one of the courses in that program was employment law. I had a great prof who was actually from Philadelphia who kind of got me turned onto the subject. I then also heard some interesting stories from family members, including my grandmother who had a really interesting and really sad incident at work where she was basically subject to religious discrimination. That kind of got me motivated, but I still thought I would probably be a criminal lawyer. And then I ended up at a big firm and big firms don't do criminal law, but we had a great labor and employment group, including John Spro, who's now on the bench. He was one of the guys in the world of employment law and I kind of learned at his feet as they say. So that's kind of what got me into it. Jared Correia (19:52): Oh, that's cool. Alright, mark, let's turn to you. Who's Jersey is that first of all? Mark Robins (19:58): Oh, this one? Jared Correia (20:00): Yeah. Mark Robins (20:00): 34. Austin Matthews the captain. Oh, sorry. Austin Matthews. Jared Correia (20:05): Okay, I've heard that name before. Mark Robins (20:07): Okay, thank you. I would say you, I'm learning so much. He's considered the second best hockey player in the world Jared Correia (20:14): After Conor McDavid. Mark Robins (20:17): Unfortunately, that's what people say. Jared Correia (20:21): This is great. I love your sports saltiness. Mark. Thank you for bringing me today. Alright, so let's talk about you. What do you do? Mark Robins (20:30): What do I do as little as humanly possible. Tell me about it. No, I'm, as you said, the introduction. I run a company called Lawyer locate.ca, Inc. Which is a Canadian national online legal referral service. We refer lawyers in Canada, people globally to lawyers in Canada. The lawyers obviously pay to be on our service and it goes from there. And then we have Digital M Space, which is an online, not online is a website development and SEO as well as social media management firm. And then I have Legal tube.ca, which is a production company. It also hosts my podcast, legal Tube podcast. And for business shows like Stuart Ru Beer's Fire Away. Jared Correia (21:18): Okay, I want to get to that. Let's put a pin in that for a second though. You have an interesting background. You did all kinds of shit before you got into legal. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I was Mark Robins (21:26): Retired Jared Correia (21:27): 30 years. What you could Mark Robins (21:28): Disclose Jared Correia (21:28): Investigator? Mark Robins (21:29): Yes. Well, I didn't disclose. I mean a lot of this stuff's really old, but yeah, I was a private investigator for 30 years. I kind of grew up in the business. My dad was a private investigator, so at a young age when my mom was ill, I would end up being in the front seat of his car doing surveillances and helping him out. Back in the old days, and Stuart remember this, and the Family Act was somewhat different for divorces. You had to literally catch for adultery. You literally had to catch the spouse in almost in the act. One of the tricks my dad would do when I was 10, 11 was we'd go to a Toronto, Starbucks, grab a handful of newspapers, and I'd go two doors before the place and then get there, try to get subscriptions, and he would tell me, just look around and see if you can see any men's stuff there. It looks out of place. So I would go and do that and then dutifully come back to the car and say, yeah, there's certainly a guy in there, dad. Okay. So that was kind of how I got introduced to being a pi. That sounds kind of cool though. (22:35): Yeah, I mean, at 10 years old, 11 years old, you're riding around in a car with a two-way radio and you're learning all these techniques of how to set up surveillance, how to follow people. Yeah, it was great education and I got the bug early. Jared Correia (22:51): That sounds amazing. You're like, Dudley, that's not true. I just wanted to mention Dudley, right? Sorry, Stuart Rudner (22:58): I don't have a lot of Jared Correia (22:59): Opportunities. Stuart Rudner (23:00): Content. You've covered more between content already than I think we do on my podcast. Jared Correia (23:06): I just want the YouTube shorts clips, that's all Mark Robins (23:09): I figured that. Jared Correia (23:12): So, okay, so the reason I wanted to have you both not together, it's because Stuart, you got a podcast, mark just mentioned it, fire away and Mark helps you produce that. So Stuart, let's start with you. Can you talk to me about how you got into podcasting in the first place? Yeah, Stuart Rudner (23:29): Well I will give Mark credit for that. He was definitely his idea. I mean, I've known Mark, what are we going to say about 15 years or so now, if not more Mark Robins (23:36): Or more. I think, Stuart Rudner (23:38): Yeah, back when all of the legal bloggers in Toronto used to get together over beers and Mark and I would be there. So we've known each other for years. And then when I started my firm, which is now eight years ago, we turned to Digital M Space and they've done our website, our socials. And Mark suggested the podcast, which I thought was a great idea. I think I was a little bit hesitant about doing it and I'm glad that we did. But it's been a lot of fun. We've had some really cool guests. So you yourself included Jared over the years and it's been a lot of fun and I think it's always hard to measure how much work you get out of these things, but a lot of people comment on the fact that by the time they call me, they feel like they know me because they've been watching all sorts of stuff, including the podcast for years. Jared Correia (24:27): I got to ask who came up with the title because the title Fire Away for an Employment podcast is brilliant, Stuart. Stuart Rudner (24:35): Alright, I wasn't sure actually, so I'm glad you remember this, mark. Mark Robins (24:39): Yeah, and it was pure, well, I think it was the conversation, my memory and I'm the old guy in the room was we were sitting in your boardroom and you had a bookshelf behind you and predominantly on that bookshelf was a book called Fire Away, and I think we bounced it back and forth, but it certainly was his, because it was part of, he had written a book and it's called Fire Away. And I thought that's a great hook. It ties nicely and I just thought it was a great way to go. Stuart Rudner (25:10): You're slightly off the book's actually called You're Fired. Oh Mark Robins (25:14): Yeah, I'm sorry. You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. See, told you Jared Correia (25:18): Stuart's over here protecting his ip. Well done Stuart Rudner (25:21): Sir. This is my daughter's IP because this was like 12 years ago and she would've been about 10 years old and she's the one who came up with the idea of calling it You're Fired. And I remember fighting with our publishers, it was like a legal text and they thought that was far too radical name, but they eventually agreed that we'd call it that. That is so funny. I love Jared Correia (25:39): That. Alright, mark, how do you get involved with attorneys? Is somebody like Stuart coming to you and being like, I'm thinking about doing a podcast or you doing the pushing and being like, Hey, let's try this out for the most part. Mark Robins (25:52): Yeah, I'm doing the push. We fell into this. We had a big client that we were doing similar to Stuart, we were doing all of his website and everything as a family log guy and he was doing a Rogers, this actually is a good story. He was doing a Rogers cable show. I'm sure you had those community shows in the States when cable was bigger. And I'd watch it a couple of times and I would complain to Natalie say, this is just crap and he's it the wrong. He was doing it at seven o'clock at night and it was this really cheesy studio set up. He'd hired some PR people, don't hold back, I didn't really care for. So I finally, this shit was trash, it was bad, it was bad. And he's reading from a teleprompter. So I had lunch with him, I can't remember what the reason was. (26:40): We were going over some other social stuff and I said, here's what you need to do to this show. And I went through, he says, whoa, well why would I stay there? And I said, first off, I said, nobody watches cable. Get with it. Everything's streaming, everybody's on the internet. I said, you need to do what they call a podcast now. And so after a little bit of wrangling, he agreed for me to do it. He actually spent the time and built a little studio in one of his empty offices and had me come up there. I was in Kitchener at the time and he was in Markham. So it was like a two hour drive every time he had to go see him and got it all set up and he had a lot of success with the show. And then we parted company and he's got another producer doing his show. (27:25): But yeah, it's still the same format that I created. And then, well, Stuart was a guest on the show and then we had this lawyer guest on Stewart Show back and forth. But most now what's happening, Jared, is because I've been pushing my podcast and I'm going to make some changes. I've got an idea I want to talk about with you guys, and I think I'm getting traction that way where people are starting to make inquiries as to what's going. And then having the ability to be on your show. That's huge because you've got more reach than I have. You're in the states. And the beauty of podcast production is it doesn't matter where you are. It's not like the referral service where you got to be Canadian or a Canadian lawyer. I can do produce your socials wherever you are. So I love Jared Correia (28:13): When a plan comes together. Stuart, let's go back to you for a moment. I think, how do you go from being a lawyer to hosting a podcast? I think a lot of people have trouble being in front of the mic and then also being on camera. A lot of lawyers are perfectionists. They see the downsides of everything first. How do you get over that mental hurdle really easily? Stuart Rudner (28:41): Actually, I've always Jared Correia (28:43): Okay, great. Mark. No, go ahead, Stuart. Stuart Rudner (28:45): Never done. You know what, I've always been comfortable in front of or behind a microphone depending on how you look at it. And people think I'm kind of weird in a sense. I actually find it more intimidating to walk into a room and try to network than to get up on a stage in front of 500 people and do a presentation. Jared Correia (29:04): Oh, interesting. Stuart Rudner (29:04): So having a mic and being behind a mic is easy. And then you kind of hit the nail on the head. I was never one of these lawyers who thought everything I put out to the public has to be perfect. And I've watched that when social media became a thing and I started posting on LinkedIn and then Facebook and Twitter and all that. And I would talk to other lawyers and they would ask me how I do it and I'd say just do it. But I would watch them struggle and spend two hours to post a 15 word comment on LinkedIn. They were terrified of getting it wrong. And yeah, I'm just not that scared of getting it wrong and doing stuff like this, like my podcast, your podcast, whatever. I am confident enough, I'm not going to say it's something absolutely horrible. And aside from that, I know that most of the value of doing this, aside from the fun, it's just people get to see your personality. So it's just not worrying too much about what you save, just going and doing it. I don't know man. You are the rare lawyer. Jared Correia (30:05): I don't think I've ever heard an attorney say that before. Just do it. It's Stuart Rudner (30:10): Great though. It's refreshing. This is you. That's your whole attitude, right? I mean, you clearly don't give a shit about what people think because I've listened to enough of your podcasts to know that's, but you're comfortable just being who you are. Yeah. Jared Correia (30:23): And so were you, which is great. Alright. Right Mark. So we're doing a video and audio recording right now. One of the reasons I wanted to do my own podcast is because I wanted to start doing video aggressively. If you're going to do a podcast, video's got to be part of it. Why is that so Mark Robins (30:43): Important? Because you don't have to be a marketing genius to just look at the stats on YouTube. And when Google admits now they own YouTube, but they admit that right now in demographic from 18 to 40, YouTube is searched more than Google and that's got to hit home. I was actually late to the parade to go to the audio podcast for the longest time for almost seven years. All we did with Fire Away was video. We never thought of putting it into the audio. And then finally a guy named Danny Brown, you may or may not know him as an influencer, he really dove into podcasting. And I've known Danny for many years, he's been on my show a couple times and we chatted. He says, you're missing the mark Mark, you're missing the mark dog with a hair lip mark, mark what plate anyway? (31:44): And he said, yo, you got to do it. So we just started putting, I think we use Pod Bean as our platform and to get it out on all the podcast platforms. And I've seen a marked difference in the results we get for Stuart's show and the results I get from my show. And just as an aside, and I'm not doing this for any of other reason other than to tell the truth, because I've worked with a lot of lawyers, and you're right about one thing as Stuart, he is a natural, I would say the first two shows, like anybody, there was a little bit of shakiness and we were still feeling out how he wanted the show to be. He went from suit and tie and kind of in the boardroom and serious to where we've got to today where it's far more relaxed, far more Jared Correia (32:30): Conversational. Mark Robins (32:31): And this Jared people want to see the mistakes. Men we do not over Jared Correia (32:38): And I make plenty of them. Mark Robins (32:41): I don't believe in overproducing. I mean I think that in post, because I think what makes it interesting for the public is they don't want to see CB, C news at six. They want to see Stewart stumble for a thought or a guest kind of pause and go, oh geez, everybody wants that. Everybody loves that. And you're right. And that's the clip you want. That's the 32nd clip you want. Stuart Rudner (33:06): Right? So Mark, I dunno if you remember this, but I think that the single funniest thing that has ever happened, hopefully nobody can hear that ringing. There we go. Single funniest thing that's ever happened with my we've the Jared Correia (33:16): Mistakes since Stuart. Stuart Rudner (33:17): Perfect. When Sean Boughton, my friend, an employment lawyer in Ottawa was a guest and we were talking about the fact that I act as a mediator in addition to being an employment lawyer. And he was trying to talk about the fact that as a mediator, I provide a useful resource. But what he said was, Stuart, you are a tool. Oh yes, I do remember that. And we took that five second clip and I think we replayed that on every social media platform for weeks because it was so priceless. But that was the type of thing that you could never have scripted. It was so funny. That is Jared Correia (33:53): Really funny. So Stuart, I got one more question for each of you. One of the other issues I see with attorneys is they never want to start anything content wise because they're like, what if I were run out of things to talk about? I tell people all the time, you're never going to run out of things to talk about. You're always going to have too much to talk about. Do you agree with that or was that a hurdle for you when you were starting out? Stuart Rudner (34:18): No, I totally agree and I agree both with respect to each episode where we could always go for hours and I always wind it down when there's more we could talk about, but also just topics. And one thing that's been pretty cool actually is in the last, I'll say year or so, and Mark, you can correct me if I'm wrong, we've definitely broadened the nature and the geography of our guests. And it's been cool. We've had more people reach out to us who have expressed interest in being on the podcast and also just the content. It used to be a lot of people who were legal or legal adjacent, if I can put it that way, or HR adjacent. Now it's a lot of really different people with different backgrounds and I can try and tie it back to employment a lot to some degree, but I don't really strain to do that a lot. Often there's no limit on the topics we can cover. So I'm not worried about that at all. Jared Correia (35:13): So if you're concerned about that and you're listening, Stuart said, just get your shit together and do it. Mark. And I'll come back to Stuart on this actually too because I'm interested what he has to say. But if I'm a practicing attorney and I start a podcast, what am I looking for in terms of return on investment? I'm not looking for millions of subscribers. Am I looking for work? Am I looking for exposure? What am I thinking of? Mark Robins (35:41): Well, it mean Stuart started off by covering earlier in the show. The main thing at the beginning you're looking for is to let the public potential clients know who you are, not the stiff guy that you might be looking like on your website. Got that real formal picture. And I've got a lawyer, a pure family law lawyer, a female, and she never smiles for a picture ever. She says, I have to look like I'm going to be angry and I'm going to fight. And I've tried a million. There's an example of Canadian lawyer that would be perfect on a podcast and she refuses. She won't do it too. Won't do it too. But I think one of the things, and I wanted to bring this up anyway, it fits with what you're asking. I'm starting to, I've even told Stuart this, I'm starting to lean towards having our lawyers like Stuart, our podcasters, start to create a one minute tip. So Stuart has, he does a rant and that's a little bit different. I wanted to have him do every two or three a week, a one minute employment law tip that's becoming hot, hot, hot. (36:54): Everybody that's doing. And there again, you're perceived to be giving something out there for free and it attracts. So I think I'm certainly going to do it. We're just toying with my producer. I'm meeting him after your show and we're going to toy with titles for mine, whether it's marketing Moments with Mark or something, you look for some type of stupid hook, right? I mean you can give me your suggestions Jart, because you've been around a lot longer than I have doing these things. Jared Correia (37:24): Yes, I'm an old soul in the podcasting arena. First of all, Stuart, is that okay with you? And then the second thing is, what do you want to get out of a podcast as a practicing attorney? Stuart Rudner (37:36): Yeah. Well it's funny. So Mark, the video I sent you yesterday that we called a rent, you can now call it a tip because can use it either way. It's already happening. Yes. And I think that's a great concept and I always have these ideas of one minute or I dunno, I always think I can do it in 30 seconds. It ends up being 90 seconds. But yeah, those quick hits, the short videos are great and just the challenge for me is just doing it because I'm sitting at my desk and I'm in the middle of things and I'm in the car. I often end up doing these things in the car as Mark knows, which my son thinks makes it look like I'm really busy. So I'm the busy lawyer on the road and taking the time to give these tips Jared Correia (38:14): For the people. Stuart Rudner (38:15): Yeah, I forgot the Exactly. So yeah, I think that's a great concept. But he kind of hit on a really important point and say, mark had a surprise for me, mark, I'll have a surprise for you. Now, this is a conversation I actually want to, I think we should have sometime soon, is talking about ROI. Because I think we all know you can never put a dollar value on a tweet or a post or anything, but it'd be good to get some idea. And I think a lot of lawyers are really concerned about that. And look, I was lucky when I was a young lawyer at a big firm, I had a mentor who said to me, you just need to get your name out there, become known as a subject matter expert. And over time the work will come and you'll have your own book of business, which gives you independence, which is also true. So back at the time, what that meant is I'd go and speak at conferences and I'd read articles for printed publications. Now it's a little bit different, but the theory is the same. It is a lot of it just building your profile. And the only question is now there are so many ways you can do it. You got to try to figure out which ones are worth the time and which ones are not. And that's where trying to figure out some sort of metrics or ROIs is helpful, but it's always imperfect. Jared Correia (39:32): Speaking of imperfect, we finish the interview section, but I had fun. Thank you guys for coming. I think you're actually going to shift over to Mark there when you said that, but that's No, we're done with Mark. No, we're not done with Mark. We're not done with either of you. Mark Robins (39:44): Do you want to come back for the final segment? Just a couple seconds on the ROI thing. I have a strong view of it. Jared Correia (39:51): Yes, yes, go ahead. You Mark Robins (39:53): Get the final word. This vertical on social media legal in Canada and trying to show ROI is the biggest scam on people that do what I do. You can swear when I've at some of those ROI reports, I Jared Correia (40:08): Know you're Canadian, but Mark Robins (40:09): Go ahead. What can IF bomb? Yeah, go for it. I've seen competitors in my industry that they fucking use absolute bullshit to come up with these bogus numbers to satisfy the client. I don't do it. And Stuart, great time for us to have this conversation, but it's not something that I believe if I can't do it accurately and I mean dead on accurately, it's a waste of time. And this is the problem. The only metric that you can really measure is what we do every quarter when we do all the stats on all of the platforms. That's telling you your ROI, right? It's impossible to see if you've got a client even, and I know you do good tracking on your intake, a lot of lawyers, and there's only so much information you can get from the guy that calls in or emails in saying, and you said, well, where'd you find us? How'd you get to know about us? Right. Well, I saw you on the internet. Well, did that mean it came from any of the stuff we produced for you? It was just the website. Yeah. Sorry, I know I'm going off on a tangent, Jared, I apologize. But it's just because I don't know format of your show. Jared Correia (41:23): We clearly have no format. Go on. Mark Robins (41:25): Okay, I can carry on. Yes, please. But yeah, and I used to see it in sales in general, this whole ROI thing. And I always struggled with it thinking like, well, what the hell the hell are you going to prove? Exactly. If you're selling widgets, yeah. There's a way to track and you could actually see if you're selling physical items, but services are a bitch to try and show ROI. Jared Correia (41:51): Oh Mark Robins (41:51): Yeah, especially legal. Jared Correia (41:54): Let's end there. I like it. Blue. Blue Jays World series me. I hope they don't ask. You do. Anyway, will you guys come back for the last segment? It'll be fun. I Stuart Rudner (42:07): Promise of CLA to travel too far. I'm in. Jared Correia (42:10): Alright, great. Welcome back everybody. That's right. We're at the counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics. I want to explore at a greater depth in my guess, expect no rhyme and very little reason. Now this is somewhat related. I was talking about Tim Morton's before, but now I really want some poutine, perhaps the greatest food ever created. But I can't eat poutine right now. I'm podcasting. Stay focused. Jared, Mark Stewart, thank you for coming back. I appreciate it. Stuart Rudner (42:48): Pleasure, Mark Robins (42:49): Pleasure. Stuart Rudner (42:50): I'm very happy to. And just if you want to be an authentic Canadian or actually Quebecer, which is where Patin is from. It's pronounced Pat, pretend. Really? Jared Correia (43:00): I'm such a fucking poser Stuart. It's embarrassing, Stuart Rudner (43:02): But if you put gravy on french fries, I will eat the fuck out of it. So when we finally get together, I know we failed last time when I was in Boston, but we will have some really good puts in. Jared Correia (43:13): Ah, that would be amazing. Okay, great. So in celebration of the great white North, I would like to play Match Game Canada Edition. Actually, it's not like Match game at all. I don't want to get sued and that'd be too complicated to do here. So I will ask you to match a famous Canadian with their favorite N-F-L-N-F-L. God Damnit. NHL team. Famous Canadian favorite NHL team. I feel like this is shooting fish in a barrel for you guys. Very Canadian. Stuart Rudner (43:47): Maybe I'm already a little intimidated, but we'll see how it goes. Jared Correia (43:52): There are two of you, so you have an advantage. So in your lance, this is a power play. How did I do? Stuart Rudner (43:58): Very good. I love it. Okay. I love it. Jared Correia (44:00): Thank you. Here we go. First famous Canadian I would like to mention is Mark Robins. Maybe you may have heard of him, is Mark Robins' favorite hockey team, the Toronto Maple Leafs, the Boston Bruins or the Montreal Canadians. What do you think? Stuart Rudner (44:23): Do I get a buzzer or something? Answer. Just speak up. I can say out of those three, it should be the Montreal Canadians. I was going to go Bruins, but clearly we Jared Correia (44:37): Have the maple leaves here. All that was just a warmup. Oh, let me ask you this. This is a question I have before we get to the real trivia. Why is it not the maple leaves? Mark Robins (44:53): I will try to help you and not be too mean about it. In Canada. We speak English. I'll leave it at that. Jared Correia (45:06): Good to know. Thank you. Moving on. Famous Canadian, Brett, the hitman, hard wrestler. Do you want to guess is his favorite hockey team or I Mark Robins (45:22): Know his favorite. Okay. It's an easy answer. I don't Stuart Rudner (45:25): Know what I'll Mark Robins (45:26): Guess. Go ahead and go for Mark. Easy. Okay, well it's Calgary Flames. Correct. He's also power owner of the Calgary Hitman in the Western Hockey League. Jared Correia (45:36): Really? Yeah, Mark Robins (45:38): The logo Is his logo. Jared Correia (45:40): Really all, I'm going to check that out after we're done here. Yeah, Mark Robins (45:43): Google. Yeah, it's, it's one of the coolest uniforms. I keep meaning to go get one jersey. I really love the jerseys. Jared Correia (45:50): I'm learning so much today already. And this segment may be 30 seconds because we know all these answers. Mark Robins (45:57): I'm as much as a big Lee fan. I am and Jay's fan. I am the hugest Brett, the Hitman Hart fan ever. Jared Correia (46:04): Really I'm, I'm glad we unearthed this. This is Stuart Rudner (46:07): Great. I never knew that Mark. This has taken me back like 30 years now. Back when I used to watch wrestling all the time. Mark Robins (46:13): He's a Calgary native too. So his family, the Hart family are revered in Albertan, in Calgary. Jared Correia (46:20): Okay. So I forget what was the Hart Foundation? Was that the name of the tag team? Mark Robins (46:24): That was the tag team. Team was the heart foundation and then they expanded. They brought some more of his brothers and in-laws into it. Yeah. The best there is, the best of the wild, the best there ever will be. Excellence of execution. Brett, the Hitman Heart. Jared Correia (46:41): This is truly a great star. I might not even need multiple choice for this one. Alright, let me give you a more challenging one this time. Gord Downey, who is the lead singer of the Tragically Hip, as I'm sure you both know, do you know his favorite hockey team? And if not, that's got to be, would you like multiple choice? Stuart Rudner (47:03): I am going to assume it's the leaves. Jared Correia (47:05): Okay. Mark leaves. Leaves. This may shock you. Are you both sitting down? Well, yeah, people can see that you're sitting down. His favorite hockey team was the Boston Bruins. Wow. Really? His godfather was Harry Sinden, who was the former Bruins coach and general manager. Mark Robins (47:28): Really? Jared Correia (47:29): Yes. Mark Robins (47:30): I was shocked to fight this out. You forgot to add Reviled general Jared Correia (47:33): Manager. I forgot to add that part, correct? Stuart Rudner (47:37): Yes. Cherry you for helping me love loved him. That is great. I had no idea and I just assumed he's from Kingston and he's all about Toronto and he'd be a leaf guy. But that's good to know. Jared Correia (47:51): Apparently they have this song called 50 Mission Cap, which is about hockey, which I've never heard before, but now I have to go listen. Mark Robins (48:00): Yeah. 50 Mission Cap is a reference to what's his name now. Bailey, who they at least won the Stanley Cup. He went away fishing, camping, whatever, on a small aircraft up way up north. The plane crashed. Jared Correia (48:20): Oh Jesus Mark Robins (48:20): Long. How many years it took before they found his body, but Jared Correia (48:23): Oh my God, I should wrap that up. Stuart Rudner (48:27): That's a great story. Mark Robins (48:29): History. Stuart Rudner (48:29): The best part of the story is that the least he wrote the song, they found his body. Jared Correia (48:35): Good Lord. By the way, I'm glad we're getting all the hockey talk out now. I'm not sure when I'll cover this again. We'll see what the numbers look like. Stuart Rudner (48:46): Well if the numbers are good, you got to bring us back. We'll do more of this. Jared Correia (48:48): Oh yeah, you'll definitely come back. Alright, I got three more for you. All equally interesting. I hope William Shatner, captain Kirk himself. Do you know his favorite hockey team or would you like multiple choice? Stuart Rudner (49:07): Mark? You know, Mark Robins (49:08): You should know Stewart, you should know this. Stuart Rudner (49:10): Oh yeah. So I'm going to ago with my gut then instead Canadians. Jared Correia (49:14): Yes. Montreal native. James T. Kirk. I did not know that. He has a quote, which I discovered where he says Hockey is a form of disorder in which the score is kept. Interesting. Very philosophical from William Sha. Mark Robins (49:31): That's not bad. Jared Correia (49:32): Alright, can I ask you this? Because again, this may be the only time I get a chance to talk hockey stuff, Quebec, Nordics, how we feel gone forever coming back at some point. How do people feel about the Nordics? Do people even remember them? I do. Oh yeah, I have Nordics hat. Stuart Rudner (49:52): Oh yeah, it's funny. It's funny you said that when I was in Boston just a few weeks ago, there was a guy there wearing a Nordics hat who was from Oklahoma of all places. Jared Correia (50:01): That is weird. Stuart Rudner (50:01): And picked it up at a garage sale and thought it was a cool looking hat. Jared Correia (50:05): He had no idea that it was a team or Stuart Rudner (50:08): He actually, someone told him it was a team afterward. But yeah. But anyway, so like I said before, I grew up in Montreal, so we hated the Nordics really? But as much we, yeah. Oh, it was such a massive rivalry. And some of the best bench clearing brawls you will ever see took place between the Habs and the Nordics, including the, oh my God, what was called was a Good Friday massacre. That was, there was one that place. I do, I remember it. It was Easter weekend. But anyways, yeah, it's sad that they lost their team. And maybe once Gary Beman is gone, if things change, maybe we'll get some more Canadian teams and I would love to see the Quebec get another one because that team was just taken away so quickly with no real discussion or warning. Its kind of sad. Mark Robins (51:03): Their demise was very similar to the expos. The ownership sold them out. Absolutely. The Quebec was a total, he ripped that place of party embezzled millions out of that team. And that's a shame. And the Toronto connection leaf connection is that it was like the most horrid day in Toronto. They traded Wendell Clark, who was then our captain to Nordic to get Matt Sundine. Worked out pretty good for Toronto, worked out pretty well. Wendell back two or three years later at the end of his career. So yeah, it worked out pretty well. And last thing about Nordic, I dunno if you guys seen it. Well, you'd know this Stuart, maybe you wouldn't share Colorado. Which was the Nordic. Jared Correia (51:51): Yeah, Mark Robins (51:52): They're third Jersey. It as beautiful as Nordic jersey that they'll be wearing this year. Jared Correia (51:57): Really? Mark Robins (51:57): Yeah. And they did a really nice job on it. Jared Correia (52:00): Did you notice I was just smiling and nodding when you were talking about hockey players. I'm like, oh yeah, that was great. Can I ask you one more question? What in the name of all that is Holy is a Nordic? Stuart Rudner (52:14): That I have no idea. Mark. You might Mark Robins (52:17): Help. I don't know. My French is Tabac and a few other and that's about it. I've lost all my French, my grade eight, French grade nine French. Jared Correia (52:28): I want to leave that open because we don't want to solve every mystery on the podcast. Mark Robins (52:33): Well, somebody's going to comment. Jared Correia (52:35): I hope so. I hope so. Mark Robins (52:38): Make sure you mentioned my name and then Stuart's name second when you comment. Thank you. Tom Green. Tom Green, Canadian Jared Correia (52:46): Comedian. Mark Robins (52:48): Do you know what his favorite team is? Jared Correia (52:51): I'll give you multiple choice if you want. You guys are hardcore. Mark Robins (52:54): Yeah, let's do multiple choices this time. Jared Correia (52:56): Let's do Los Angeles Kings, San Jose Sharks or Ottawa Senators. What is Tom Green's favorite team? Ottawa. Ottawa Senators. Stuart Rudner (53:06): Yeah. I was going to say Ottawa as well. Of Ottawa Choice. But Jared Correia (53:11): I'm thinking Ottawa. I read this on Reddit, which I thought was interesting. Posted by Reddit user. Little St. Nick shouts to little St. Nick. Apparently when the senator started, Tom Green used to dress up as a and go to practice and ask the team to milk him, which is very Tom Green. Mark Robins (53:31): No kidding. No kidding. Stuart Rudner (53:34): Eddie would pretend to support milk on people. It's just fucked up. Oh my God. So is he the one that cursed the centers in his why? They can never win. That's why they suck. Jared Correia (53:43): I don't know anything about hockey and I know the Senators are fucking Mark Robins (53:46): Terrible. They're never going to get past the Melnick Curse. They'll never get past that. Jared Correia (53:51): Who's Melnick? Just please, Nick. Mark Robins (53:52): He was the second owner. Yeah, second owner. Oh, I think he was the second owner after the original guy. He was also another scammer. I love how Beman let's this expansion franchise. If you ever go to Ottawa and you go to their, what is it called this week? Is it a coliseum? Is it a stadium? Is it a place? Whatever. They changed the names every other year, but they've got the original from the 19 hundreds Ottawa Senators Cup banners hanging in Jared Correia (54:24): There. Mark Robins (54:25): It is a disgrace. Jared Correia (54:27): Oh Mark Robins (54:27): Wow. Disgrace. Jared Correia (54:29): This is great. You guys feel about hockey. The way I feel about basketball, I feel the same way about the Lakers. The Minneapolis Lakers Championship should not count. Fuck that. Mark Robins (54:38): No Stuart Rudner (54:39): That way. Should not. Mark Robins (54:40): Okay. Last. I mean, Ottawa was a straight up expansion team. That was the name they chose, which they probably should never have allowed them to call themselves the Ottawa Senators. Jared Correia (54:52): The Ottawa Putin. Did I say that correctly? That would be something you said it. Stuart Rudner (55:00): It doesn't work. A Jared Correia (55:00): Couple cheese curs on the jersey. Stuart Rudner (55:03): If they're going to bring the Nordics back, maybe Quebec gets that, but I don't think any other part of Canada would be entitled to that. Jared Correia (55:09): All right, last one. One of my favorite Canadians ever. Michael J. Fox. Back to the future Family ties. Stuart Rudner (55:17): Oh, he is the Vancouver Oxs. Jared Correia (55:20): Correct. Tim, you guys are good. This is really impressive. Why couldn't you Mark Robins (55:24): Bring Mike Myers some real easy Jared Correia (55:28): Ones? I felt like Mike Myers was too easy. Right? Because he's a Toronto fan. Mark Robins (55:32): Oh, he more than he's a mega fan. I do love Mike Myers. He will travel the earth to go watch the Leafs when they're in the finals or Jared Correia (55:42): In the playoffs. What is the actual attraction of Scottish people in Canada? Because Mike Myers always doing Scottish candidates, characters, those movies. It's huge. Really? Okay. Mark Robins (55:53): It's huge. Yeah. I mean, Canada's built on, not unlike the States, you're built on Brits. Jared Correia (56:03): That's true. Mark Robins (56:03): True. They're the ones that came over and started to do the real heavy lifting. Right. And then you get the Italians came over and now we're up the Somalians. Were after the Italians and now we're up to everything from all over. Jared Correia (56:20): Since we talked about Mike Myers, I would like to shout out. Saw I Marry Ex Murderer, which you guys know that Mark Robins (56:28): Movie. That's a great movie. Jared Correia (56:29): Great movie. I have run into several people recently who have never seen, saw I Marry Ex murderer, which is worth watching just for the scene with the kid with the large melon who's in front of the game on the television. Hi. Stuart Rudner (56:45): You're kind of making me think, Jared, that I'm actually not a very good parent. I'm not sure my kids have seen that, so Jared Correia (56:50): I Stuart Rudner (56:51): Tragic. Let's remedy that movie night. Jared Correia (56:55): Yeah, Stuart Rudner (56:55): You're Jared Correia (56:55): A start. It's the origin or Shreck. Okay. This is fine. Thanks for coming on, guys. You killed it. Thanks for our guest, Stewart Rudner of Rudner Law. To learn more about Stewart and Rudner law, visit rudner law.ca, R-U-D-N-E-R-L-A w.ca rudner law.ca. Thanks for our guest, Mark Robins at Lawyer Locate. To learn more about Mark and lawyer locate visit lawyer locate.ca. That's lawyer locate.ca now because I'll always be a nineties kid who still knows the words to sum our lady peace songs, but his true passion is Bernie CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlist for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist will get you sent right to the penalty box. That's correct. It's hockey songs and is sponsored by Tim Hortons. No, it's actually not sponsored by Tim Hortons. The fucking tariff stuff made it too difficult to manage. Join us next time when I'll tell you all about the effects of the Smoot ol. Join us next time. When I tell you all about the effects of the Smoot Tariff Act, you're not going to love it.