Latest / The Prompt / Ep. 560 | Why ABM should be the core of every B2B go-to-market strategy

Transcript

Ep. 560 | Why ABM should be the core of every B2B go-to-market strategy · The Prompt

0:01
This is on base your one stop shop for solving your most
0:04
pressing B2B go to market challenges.
0:07
Each week, host Chris Moody and Paul Gibson talk to sales and
0:09
marketing leaders to get you in depth insights and creative
0:12
strategies to set your revenue teams up for success.
0:18
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the latest in this
0:21
award-winning on Based podcast series.
0:23
I'm your host, Paul Gibson, and we had everyone in B2B exploring
0:26
strategies and GTM, etcetera. I'm excited that today I'm
0:30
talking with Robert Neuron from Propolis and today we'll be
0:33
discussing the importance of ABM being the core of any B2B
0:38
company's GTM strategy. Robert, we go back many years,
0:41
so I'm excited to get on this with you.
0:43
Thanks for coming onto the show today.
0:45
My pleasure, thanks for having me fall.
0:46
Looking forward to having a chat.
0:48
Absolutely. And and so before we get into
0:50
the topic, because it's always interesting, can you start with
0:53
a bit of AI don't know a walk through your journey, where you
0:57
are today and your current role at Propolis?
0:59
Yeah, sure. So I normally kick off by saying
1:02
I've been in B2B marketing for around 30 years.
1:04
I tend to cap it at that. Otherwise, I do sound terribly
1:08
old. And obviously we've known each
1:09
other for a long time as well. In terms of ABM, I've been
1:12
specialising in it for the last 13 years.
1:15
I've worked with a number of leading agencies in the space
1:18
and for the last five or six years I've worked as a
1:21
completely independent consultant, giving advice to
1:23
both clients and agencies. In terms of my relationship with
1:27
Propolis, it started out with B2B marketing.
1:30
I've been running their ABM Essentials training course for
1:32
the last seven years. We've had over 1000 people, well
1:35
over 1000 people through through that.
1:37
And Propolis, which was sort of driven as an online community
1:41
during COVID has obviously expanded to be, you know, really
1:44
quite a large global B to B community.
1:48
And my role there is as the ABM and demand strategy expert as
1:52
they call me. And that's really to provide
1:54
advice and consultancy and training to Propolis members who
1:58
are all B to B companies spread across tech, professional
2:01
services, manufacturing all kinds of different industries.
2:04
Yeah, and I know properly as well again from the B2B
2:06
marketing days as well. And it's a, it's a great
2:09
community and, and lots of really good advice as well.
2:12
It's not a team of salespeople, right?
2:14
It's a team of people who can really help you build out your
2:16
understanding and use of, of all of these fantastic tactics and,
2:20
and, and programs. So.
2:22
Exactly. Yeah, I mean there's a team of
2:24
experts who are all consultants in their own right.
2:27
And then of course, there's the community and an awful lot of
2:29
the power of, of proper list is the fact that you're mixing with
2:33
your peers and you're able to ask them questions and share
2:36
experiences and ideas. And we run a lot of round tables
2:40
and discussion groups, both as live events and and obviously
2:43
online as well. Yeah, excellent.
2:45
So anyone who hasn't, definitely check out Propolis, a very
2:49
useful community to be a part of.
2:51
So you know, you're saying you've been in B to B 30 years.
2:54
What first drew you to the world of ABM, and why do you think
2:57
it's such a focal point of the work you do today?
3:01
Well, in truth, it was an colleague who said, I'm doing
3:04
some consulting work for this agency who specialized in ABM,
3:08
and I'm about to go and take a permanent job.
3:10
Would you like to pick up what I've been doing?
3:13
And this is back in 2012, I think.
3:16
And I said, what's ABM? You know, I'd literally never
3:19
heard of it, even though I've been in B2B marketing, you know,
3:22
since the 80s. So I kind of fell into it.
3:25
I was fascinated by the fact that this was transforming the
3:28
way companies were obviously going to market.
3:32
And in the early days I was working with companies like
3:34
Oracle and EMC and VM Ware and Citrix, who are all obviously
3:38
tech vendors, very large, complex sales cycles dealing
3:43
with enterprise organizations. And this whole idea of
3:46
personalization to large companies really resonated.
3:50
And you know, I've been fascinated and immersed in it in
3:53
equal measure ever since. Excellent.
3:56
Yeah. And as we all know, it's it's
3:57
one of those E elements that that separates B to B's from B
4:01
to C's and and you know, makes them a much more successful
4:05
organization. I think we all agree that
4:07
spending time, budget and resource on companies you can't
4:10
sell to makes little sense, and an account based approach
4:13
definitely helps with that. Without question.
4:15
Yeah, Yeah. So can you think of or share any
4:18
key moments from your career that maybe shaped your approach
4:22
to ABM as being a key TTM strategy?
4:25
Yeah. I mean I think as I say in the
4:27
early days it was very much about working with large
4:29
organizations who are looking to consolidate their relationships
4:33
with really large customers, you know thinking central
4:36
government, large enterprise. And it was really about that in
4:40
depth understanding of accounts and the people that were
4:43
important within those now called the buying group in in
4:47
fashionable modern terms. But I, I just thought that whole
4:50
idea of building really in depth long term relationships based
4:54
around insight and understanding was key.
4:57
So that was kind of phase one, if you like.
4:59
Phase two, where I think it kind of got interesting is I went to
5:02
work with an agency who developed their own insight
5:05
platform. They'd embedded Bombora into
5:07
that and suddenly that sort of opened the opportunity for
5:11
looking at a larger number of companies and, and obviously
5:14
looking for buying signals, you know, perhaps even before the
5:18
company had had any, any conversations or engagement with
5:20
them. And of course, we know that as
5:23
intent. So that for me was was another
5:25
phase of activity. And what I've been trying to do
5:28
over the last five years really is to build out a consolidated
5:31
story where people can see how all aspects of ABM fit together.
5:36
There isn't one-size-fits-all. There isn't one form of ABMI
5:40
think that is better than the others.
5:42
I mean, a purist would obviously say true ABM is 1 to one ABM to
5:47
your biggest customers and prospects.
5:49
But I think there is real opportunity and real legs in the
5:52
whole piece around. You know, you might start with
5:55
one to one and scale to 1 to few and ultimately one to many or
5:58
you might come at it from the opposite direction.
6:01
And for me, the lights kind of went on.
6:03
I created something called the full stack ABM model a few years
6:06
ago of how do you really connect everything together?
6:10
And I now see ABM, whether we call it ABM or any other
6:13
fashionable acronym, 3 letter acronym, I see it as the glue,
6:17
if you like that, that has the potential to really connect
6:21
organizations and potentially breakdown silos across different
6:24
teams. Yeah, absolutely.
6:26
And, and that acronym is, is as frustrating as it is useful.
6:31
I mean, I, I speak to so many sales leaders and, and the stuff
6:34
that you and I do on a day-to-day basis is just as
6:37
beneficial to them as it is to marketers.
6:39
But the minute you say the word ABM, they think, oh, that's
6:42
marketing, nothing to do with me.
6:43
So yeah, I think we've had what ABM, ABX multiple different
6:48
iteration in terms of the three letter acronym.
6:51
But at the end of the day, it's that focus on the companies that
6:55
you can and want to sell to, which is the heart of everything
6:57
that that you and I do day-to-day.
6:59
So yeah, as painful as they are useful.
7:04
Well, I think if marketeer even marketeers, I think if you could
7:07
turn the clock back 22 years, you know, when ABM was first
7:10
used as a term, I think, you know, people would probably
7:12
prefer to pick something else. Yeah, I think we're we're
7:15
definitely stuck with ABM as the master brand.
7:18
But something I've talked about more recently is, you know, if
7:22
ABM is the master brand, you know, we're we're we're stuck
7:24
with that, then what are the operating companies?
7:27
And I think Abe account based engagement makes a lot of sense
7:30
if you're thinking about new name, new accounts.
7:32
And I think ABX makes a lot of sense if you're talking about
7:35
existing customers where you want to improve customer
7:38
experience and you want to obviously be a upselling and
7:41
cross selling to them. And even within that you've got
7:44
things like, you know, deal based marketing, DBM, you've got
7:47
this new highly fashionable term of BGM by group marketing.
7:51
I think they're all subsets of ABM.
7:53
And the only question is the language you used to talk about
7:56
it internally, but it's the same approach and B to B marketing.
8:00
And with improper list, we've even started talking about
8:02
account based strategies. And I think that then resonates,
8:06
you know, from both a sales point of view and marketing
8:08
point of view or customer success point of view.
8:10
And I think even leadership teams would get that in a way
8:14
that doesn't pigeonhole it as a marketing gig, if you like.
8:17
Yeah, absolutely. So regardless of whatever
8:21
acronym we we end up with, why do you think putting these
8:24
strategies at the centre of the go to market strategy for a
8:27
business is so crucial for today's B2B organisations?
8:31
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head early on, Paul.
8:34
It's about focus, you know, I think in the current economy
8:37
where clearly businesses have have not been having an easy
8:40
time over the last few years, probably even since COVID, it's
8:43
about focus. And I think it's about focusing
8:46
your resources, your budget, your people and getting them to
8:50
look at the most important accounts and prospects.
8:52
Obviously if you're in an SME market and you're, you're
8:54
looking at 10s of thousands of companies, then you need to
8:57
think carefully about whether ABM would be the right approach
9:00
for you and how to use it. But I think if you're working at
9:03
an enterprise space and you're really looking at very large
9:06
deals, large complex sales cycles, then for my money, ABM
9:10
is pretty much the go to market strategy.
9:12
You know, why would you do anything else?
9:15
You know, yes, let's understand the total addressable market,
9:18
but then let's work on the OR think about the accounts that
9:21
are going to be most important to us, pick those off in in
9:24
manageable bite sized chunks and then think of the right ABM
9:28
approach. So from from that point of view,
9:30
I think the rationale for it being at the heart of any
9:33
enterprise organizations go to market strategy is about focus
9:37
and it's about maximizing your chance of success.
9:40
And obviously if you spread yourself too thin, then you just
9:43
end up doing spray and prey marketing, which you know, we've
9:47
we've moved away from a long time ago.
9:49
But I think people still have the tendency to want to go back
9:53
to chasing MQLS etcetera. Yeah.
9:56
And it's, it's frustrating to say again, it happens a lot that
9:59
you, you see people actually invest the time and effort in
10:02
being an intent tool, an insight tool, whatever, taking their
10:06
time to build out an ICP, the companies they can and want to
10:09
sell to, they're the ones we're going to go after.
10:12
And then you you see them do exactly what you said, the spray
10:14
and pray advertising approach where they're hitting anyone and
10:17
everyone and hoping that some of the people that they advertise
10:20
to are the right people. And you think, well, in these
10:23
days when you can actually be very focused on your
10:25
advertising, all that time and effort to decide we're going
10:28
after this group of companies and then advertise to anyone and
10:31
everyone else, it just doesn't make sense.
10:33
So yeah, it's ongoing discussion now.
10:37
Yeah. And I also think people often
10:39
have a, a way to LAX definition of what an ICP is.
10:43
You know, they'll pick an industry, they'll pick a
10:45
turnover, they'll pick the number of employees and they'll
10:47
go, that's our ICP. Well, if you've got 5 or 10,000
10:51
companies in your ICP, then I think you've got a problem.
10:54
You know, what companies should be doing is they should be
10:57
interrogating their own customer base and really looking at where
11:01
are the accounts that are most valuable to us, most profitable,
11:05
what do they look like? And then of course, starting to
11:08
think about, well, where can we find some more of those?
11:11
I did some work for a client recently and they were targeting
11:14
over 20,000 companies and one of the marketing leads said to me,
11:18
do you know, Robert, last year we made 50% of our new business
11:22
target on five accounts. So you know, there's a complete
11:26
disconnect between targeting 20,000 companies and making 50%
11:31
of your target from 5 accounts. You know, I wouldn't want to
11:34
dwell on that one or the company involved, but I think that's
11:37
indicative of what a lot of companies do.
11:39
You know, they're they're not focused enough and they haven't
11:42
made the tough decisions upfront and got the buy in from
11:45
leadership, from sales, from marketing, from customer
11:48
successors to well, these are the top 10 twenty 5100 accounts
11:52
that we should really be concentrating on.
11:54
Yeah, 100 cent degree. You brought up another point
11:57
really around customers. It's amazing how many people see
12:00
this ABM approach as a demand Gen. function.
12:04
Well it is, but it's also very much look at your existing
12:08
customers. There's upsell cross sale
12:10
renewal opportunities that often you know this approach works
12:13
superbly well in but seems to be ignored so lot.
12:16
Lots of opportunities for organisations for sure.
12:19
Agreed. Yeah, I mean, I think that that
12:22
balance between are we using ABM for new name, new accounts
12:25
versus existing customer growth is, is actually a really big
12:28
conversation. And to your point, Paul, I think
12:31
still way too many people are using ABM for just for new name,
12:35
new accounts. And that's back in the old days
12:37
of, you know, marketing get us some leads and that just drives
12:41
the wrong behaviour. Again, I think where are we
12:44
going to make our money as an organization in the next 12 to
12:46
24 months? What is the relative split
12:49
between the existing customer growth and new name, new account
12:51
wins? And therefore, where should we
12:53
be spending our time and effort? And I think very often marketing
12:57
are given the poison chalice of go and win us some new stuff
13:00
when actually there's a huge amount of untapped potential in
13:03
your existing customer base that is not being mined very often by
13:07
sales or by customer success. Yeah.
13:10
Yeah, 100% agreed. OK.
13:12
So I mean ABM has been around for a while as we've just talked
13:15
about and for some it's, it's already the go to motion that
13:18
they they prioritize. But from your experience, what
13:21
do you see as the main differences between implementing
13:24
an ABM strategy further versus maybe other more traditional
13:28
approaches? Well, again, I think it starts
13:31
by asking the fundamental questions of what are we trying
13:33
to achieve as a business? You know, what are our goals and
13:36
objectives, what are our financial targets and where do
13:38
we think we're going to make our money?
13:40
And then I think you should be applying or creating an ABM
13:43
strategy that reflects that. And that of course is then going
13:46
to make it much easier to sell it into leadership teams and to
13:49
have it cascade down the organization rather than being
13:52
seen, you know, as a marketing driven exercise.
13:55
It's not like there's a one-size-fits-all model.
13:57
I think it's got to reflect the make up of your business.
14:00
You know, if you're an organization with 100 major
14:03
customers globally and you're not really looking to win many
14:06
newer customers in the next 12 months, then that's going to
14:09
drive one set of behaviour. If you're an organization, you
14:12
know, with a significant installed base with a a
14:15
significant upside, then you need to be thinking about how
14:18
you're going to upsell and cross sell.
14:20
If you've got a large sales team and you need to feed them with
14:22
opportunities, then of course that's going to going to require
14:25
scale. So in that context, you know, I
14:28
think coming back again, without being too cliched, you know, 1
14:31
to 1 is going to treat your most important accounts and prospects
14:35
in a certain way. One to few helps you broaden
14:37
that out into a tight knit group of accounts within key verticals
14:41
probably. And then the one to many play,
14:43
probably using a martech and intense engines gives you a
14:47
chance to at least look at a larger footprint.
14:50
But I think that larger footprint still needs to be
14:52
highly, you know, focused and managed because you want the
14:56
sales teams or your BDR teams to be able to have the bandwidth to
15:00
really proactively follow up with those accounts and try and
15:03
engage them. So you know, I think any account
15:06
based strategy needs to be sort of nuanced.
15:08
It needs to be tiered and it will probably involve a
15:11
combination of all three of those approaches depending on
15:14
your business objectives, you know, and revenue targets.
15:18
Absolutely. And on those objectives and
15:20
targets, so many businesses seek instant results.
15:23
I mean, no, that's not always possible.
15:25
And and, and ABM really is a longer target area I suppose.
15:28
So how would you say a strong A/B MABX strategy impacts
15:33
overall business outcomes? Well, I think it's fair to say
15:36
that, you know, if you're focusing your attentions on the
15:38
accounts that matter, the likelihood is that you're going
15:40
to see better results. And of course, there are so many
15:43
case studies out in the market. You know, B2B marketing have
15:46
been running their ABM award for the last 10 years or more.
15:49
You know, there are lots of examples of where this has been
15:51
extremely successful. But I take your absolute point,
15:55
Paul, that everybody's in a hurry and most companies are on
15:58
quarterly targets. And if you've got a 12 to 18
16:01
month sales cycle, you know, even if you start doing some
16:04
great work really quickly, it may not land in the current
16:07
calendar year. It's certainly not going to land
16:09
in the next quarter. So I think the most important
16:12
thing is that first of all, expectations are set as to what
16:16
this thing is and how it works, and then they're managed and
16:19
then you need to be looking for wins all the way through the
16:21
cycle. So, you know, we're starting
16:23
from a position perhaps where we have two to five contacts in our
16:27
CRM system. You know, how can we expand that
16:30
to 10 to 20 to 30? How can we be sure we're really
16:33
covering the buying group? Well, I think that should be
16:35
positioned as a win. You know, do we have account
16:38
plans and in depth research and insight into each of our
16:41
accounts and do we have real knowledge of how to talk to
16:43
them? That's a win.
16:44
You know, creating really great personalized content and landing
16:49
that on a regular basis and looking for engagement.
16:52
That's a win. It's not about how many MQLS can
16:55
we create in the next six weeks, but it is about showing that
16:59
we're moving the dial on an ongoing basis.
17:01
And of course what we're looking for is opportunities coming into
17:04
the CRM system where we can at least put a number next to those
17:08
in terms of opportunities and pipeline created.
17:10
That pipeline may not land for 12 to 18 months, but at least if
17:14
we can demonstrate that we've made a significant difference,
17:17
then I think, you know that's something that senior leadership
17:20
and the sales organization would definitely see real value in.
17:24
And a lot of this I think is about positioning.
17:27
Too often I think marketing are sort of seen as the internal
17:30
service unit and they're being tasked with things.
17:33
I think we need to be really stepping up to the plate and
17:36
having grown up conversations at the top of the business about
17:39
what's important and how we measure that.
17:42
And if we can show that we're actually making a difference,
17:45
even if the deals haven't landed, then I think that has
17:48
real value. Yeah, absolutely.
17:50
I think even simple things like identifying companies that you
17:53
didn't know we're in market are suddenly in market, you've
17:56
managed to reach them and got them.
17:58
You know, engaging with your brand in some way, shape or form
18:01
should be seen as a massive win. And often it's not because,
18:04
well, that's not in the pipeline yet.
18:05
So I think you're right. I think these tactics that we're
18:08
talking about are vital to to any B to B.
18:11
But a lot of people we speak to, their leadership has come from
18:14
the B to C world, which is I just want more leads, more leads
18:18
and there and there's still a lot of education to be done.
18:20
I think probably more so here than in the States, but
18:23
definitely it's an issue we're seeing.
18:25
Right. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't disagree.
18:27
Yeah. So there's going to be many
18:29
listeners on the podcast today who will be looking to get
18:32
started with this or maybe just getting started.
18:35
So for their benefit, with your experience, what would you say
18:38
are the most common challenges a business would face when
18:41
embedding ABM into their their go to market strategy?
18:44
Well, this might sound a bit one O 1, Paul, but I think that the
18:47
challenge I see most often is companies dive into ABM without
18:51
having really defined what it means for their organization and
18:54
without having the leadership team bought in and understanding
18:58
exactly what's going to be going on.
19:00
So I think the very first thing is define what ABM means.
19:03
You know, is it going to be about new customer acquisition?
19:06
Is it going to be about customer growth?
19:08
Is it going to be about a combination?
19:10
Can we demonstrate how this really should be embedded and
19:13
linked to our, you know, our global business objectives?
19:16
And if that's the case and leadership have bought into
19:19
that, then you're going to have a much greater chance of
19:21
success. Then I think it's about
19:23
socializing it across the organization.
19:25
So it's critical, obviously, that your marketing team have
19:28
been trained and they understand what it is they're going to be
19:31
doing and they're competent to deliver.
19:33
But you also need your sales organization and customer
19:36
success and any other key, key teams within the organization
19:39
they're going to be participating in this to to have
19:42
got it. So you know, first of all,
19:44
define it. Secondly, sell it in, you know,
19:47
as a company wide directive and then make sure that people are
19:51
actually up to speed. And then I think the next piece
19:54
is what is our strategy? You know, are we coming at this
19:57
from a volume play? Are we coming at it from an
19:59
existing customer or a new name, new account play?
20:02
How many accounts should be in our program and how do we build
20:05
this out so that it has critical mass?
20:07
Once you've done that, then of course you have to get into the
20:10
account selection process. And again, so often I think
20:13
accounts are chosen on arbitrary basis.
20:16
Sales gave us this list, so we're working on it.
20:18
Or the senior leadership team have decided that we'd really
20:21
like to work with, you know, Amex and Apple and Barclaycard
20:25
and Mercedes. You know, there's no thought or
20:28
logic necessarily there. So I think having an empirical
20:32
approach, certainly doing account scoring at the top end
20:35
and really making sure that you're choosing the right
20:38
accounts for the right reasons. So I think all of those things
20:41
are absolutely critical. I do of course hear so many
20:44
people talking about wanting to do a pilot, but so often those
20:47
pilots are almost incidental. You know, we'll we'll do a one
20:50
to one program into two accounts.
20:52
So we'll start with this vertical.
20:54
And I think if it's not seen as a critical strategy for the
20:57
business, the chances are if you don't get the results in the
21:00
first three to six months, you just go, well, we had a go at it
21:02
and it didn't work. I think if you bought into ABM
21:06
as a primary go to market strategy, then you need to
21:09
invest in it. People need to understand it's
21:11
the long term play and that's why I think it's so important
21:15
that you know it's sold in right from the top down.
21:18
Yeah, absolutely. And leadership buying is
21:20
critical. And that pilot thing is, as you
21:23
can imagine is, is something we we come across most days as
21:26
well. Like we want to do a three month
21:28
pilot for a a deal cycle, which is typically 18 months.
21:31
Well, what do you really expect to achieve in that time?
21:34
So getting the realism in there is really important.
21:36
For me, a pilot is almost a dirty word.
21:39
Of course you have to build the business case and I'm not
21:41
suggesting you literally flip a switch where your marketing
21:43
budget is 100% Adm from day one. But I think if you're going to
21:48
take this approach, it is a strategic go to market strategy
21:52
and the idea that you have a pilot with a couple of accounts
21:55
or or as you say, 1/4's worth of activity, I mean, it's just not
21:58
going to fly. So I think setting expectations
22:01
and then managing them is critical, yeah.
22:05
Absolutely. And those getting those
22:06
departments all on side and the leadership there knowing what to
22:10
expect is critical as well. So we hear it all the time and
22:13
it's again, it's as old as us probably Robert, but getting
22:17
sales and marketing aligned is something of a Nirvana, but I
22:20
think for so many businesses. And when we think about that,
22:22
how would you say an account based approach contributes to
22:26
building the stronger relationship between sales and
22:28
marketing and indeed the other key department?
22:31
Well, I definitely think it's about moving away from the, you
22:34
know, the old world where marketing are the people that
22:37
run events, do PR, help us with presentations and generate MQLS.
22:42
You know, I mean, that's just got to be the past.
22:44
So I think it's about creating an equal relationship where both
22:48
teams understand the value that they bring to the party.
22:51
And if you think about marketing, what should
22:53
marketing's role be? Well, marketing historically has
22:56
been the voice of the customer. So that's about understanding
22:59
the market, understanding the accounts, probably having a
23:02
strong point of view on account selection, and then obviously
23:05
building out value propositions and messaging that are really
23:08
going to resonate from a sales point of view.
23:10
I think, you know, yes, of course they own the customer and
23:13
the customer relationship, but they really need to understand
23:16
that, you know, one person having a strong relationship
23:19
with a handful of people is not how to build the future of an
23:22
organization. And working closely with
23:25
marketing to build on that customer insight, to expand your
23:29
footprint within the account to be able to create new stories,
23:32
new positioning, new content that will keep the whole
23:35
dialogue fresh and obviously give them the opportunity to
23:38
upsell and cross sell. So, you know, from that
23:41
perspective, I mean, if I bring it down to the real world, you
23:44
know, another client that I did some work with recently said,
23:46
you know, we've got 80 major accounts in, in the UK and
23:49
Ireland, but we don't really know them well enough.
23:52
Well, that is a role for ABM. Somebody else in another client
23:55
said, you know, renewals are a fluke.
23:57
I mean, seriously. So you need to be in a position
24:01
where you're making smart decisions based around where's
24:05
the future of our business, what is most important to us.
24:08
And you know, again, I think if marketing are asking intelligent
24:12
questions of leadership from the CEO down, having smart
24:15
conversations with the finance team to understand where we
24:18
really make our money, engaging the sales team, showing real
24:22
value from that customer insight and positioning point of view,
24:25
then I think any smart salesperson would want to play.
24:28
And we're talking sales, you know, but we could be talking
24:30
about BDR teams who again often have unrealistic expectations
24:34
set of them and not enough information or insights about
24:37
accounts. So I think if marketing can
24:40
actually empower those BDR teams, you know, with
24:43
information, with insight, with point of view, with content,
24:46
with things to talk about, that all has real value.
24:49
And for me, without coming out with too many jargon esque
24:53
terms, you know, I think ABM is not just about focus, but I
24:57
think it is about breaking down silos so that we have a SWAT
25:01
team working across the business, looking at our most
25:04
important accounts and prospects.
25:06
And everybody has their role, but it should be complementary,
25:10
you know, not competitive, not antagonistic.
25:13
And the other old chestnut of attribution, I mean, who gives
25:16
the monkeys where it started? The whole point is we need to
25:20
engage these accounts. We need to do the right things
25:23
to engage them. We need to be landing the right
25:26
content. We need to be having the right
25:27
conversations. And at some point, that will
25:30
become an opportunity. It will lead to pipeline.
25:32
It will lead to a deal. That's a team game.
25:35
You know, that's not about attribution, though.
25:37
It was one team over another that started the process or or
25:41
close the process. Yeah, absolutely.
25:43
And I think that sales, you know and marching alignment and it's
25:47
so critical. We have now we hear it time
25:49
again. And I probably bet that pretty
25:51
much every salesperson that we speak to at some point thought
25:55
they had a deal that we're going to close and then someone came
25:57
out left field that they didn't even know of who killed the deal
26:01
for whatever reason. And I think what technologies
26:04
and advancements that we've got today is you're allowing, you
26:07
know, a salesperson may know 2-3 people in that buyer committee
26:10
and may never actually speak to anyone else on that buyer
26:13
committee. But if marketing are able to
26:16
engage with those people, even when they're anonymously doing
26:19
stuff and align the messaging that they're getting to the rest
26:22
of the buyer committee or what the sales people are saying to
26:25
the ones they're speaking to day in, day out, it just helps
26:29
secure that message and it makes it much more likely that that
26:32
deal will happen. So I think that sales and
26:34
marketing alignment is such a critical element that often is
26:37
is not discussed and I think it really is important.
26:40
Yeah. And to your point there about,
26:42
you know, who the salesperson can actually access, Paul, you
26:46
know, there was a very interesting piece of research I
26:48
saw last year from LinkedIn and Bain and they were talking
26:51
about, you know, the the active buyer and the invisible buyer.
26:54
And typically, you know, buying groups was sort of 10 plus, but
26:57
the invisible buyers were about 50% of the buying group.
27:01
And on that basis, if the salesperson never gets exposure
27:04
to these people, you know, it could be C-Suite, could be
27:06
procurement, could be other people sitting behind the
27:08
scenes, then how do they influence them?
27:11
And very often, these passive or inactive buyers are people that
27:16
they might not say yes, they might not be choosing the
27:18
shortlist, but they're the people that say no.
27:21
And the people that say no typically say no because they're
27:24
not familiar with the brand. They don't trust it, They don't
27:27
feel comfortable with it. And they would feel more
27:29
comfortable buying from a brand they do know, even if the
27:33
technology is inferior, which sounds ludicrous, but of course,
27:36
that's how we behave as consumers.
27:38
You know, we typically buy from brands that we know, that we
27:40
like, that we trust. And that just puts even more on
27:44
us, I think on marketing, doing a great job with those invisible
27:48
buyers by building brand, by creating meaningful content, by
27:52
putting, you know, the organization on the map even
27:55
before the buying cycle. Starts, yeah, absolutely.
27:58
So critical. And I think having that ability
28:01
to ensure that whether they're the invisible buyer or the known
28:05
buyer, they're getting the same messages and insight, whether
28:08
they're coming to the website, whether they're exploring stuff,
28:11
etcetera, making sure that they're all aligned just secures
28:15
that from happening. So it's really important.
28:17
So we've got to gain buy in from those at the top, as we said
28:20
earlier, if we're going to be successful with these
28:22
strategies. Can you give us some idea on how
28:24
companies can maybe overcome potential resistance or
28:27
scepticism about ABM, especially from these leadership or maybe
28:31
legacy teams? It's not an easy 1, you know, I
28:34
think it does come back to we need to create a compelling
28:37
story. You know, what is the
28:38
positioning for ABM and why do we need it?
28:41
We need to build the business case by talking to the right
28:43
people in the organization, you know, whether that's finance or
28:46
sales to look at what's important to us.
28:48
And then I think the key thing is explaining in very clear
28:52
terms what ABM is and, and how it's going to make a difference.
28:55
And we've said, of course, the acronym may not be the acronym
28:58
we want to use, but taking that account based approach is
29:02
effectively saying we want to put the customer at the centre
29:05
of our world and we want to talk to them in their language about
29:09
their needs, about their problems and about how we can
29:11
help them. And that's just not rocket
29:13
science. You know, it's just the fact
29:15
that it hasn't really been done particularly well in B to B for
29:18
a very long time. So I think really getting people
29:21
excited about the potential for ABM creating, you know, some
29:25
science behind it in terms of how do we go about creating our
29:29
strategy? How do we go about segmenting
29:32
our business and our accounts and then what's the process for
29:35
really bringing this to life. And I think it's really
29:38
important that BDRS and sales teams and customer success
29:41
understand what their role in the process will be.
29:44
And even if the marketing team are are perhaps the
29:47
orchestrators of the program, everybody needs to understand
29:49
understand their roles, you know, the the time requirements
29:52
and what they're expected to do. So from that perspective, you
29:55
know, for me, ABM should probably be most enterprise
29:59
organizations primary go to market strategy.
30:02
Then the question is how do we bring that to life for everybody
30:05
who's going to be involved? How do we show them how one to
30:08
many can in fact be the new demand Gen. just across a much
30:11
more targeted group of accounts? How can we show them how one to
30:15
few could actually be a really tailored version of industry
30:18
marketing that's going to have real impact?
30:21
And how can we show them how 1 to 1 is going to, you know, open
30:24
doors and existing customers and help us win major bids, RFPs,
30:29
deals, pursuits, etcetera? And I think with all that in
30:32
play, then it needs strong personalities.
30:35
You know, it needs people to really drive the agenda and it
30:39
also needs I think internal marketing.
30:41
You know, very often the wheels come off when people forget
30:44
what's going on in ABM or they lose interest because they
30:47
haven't heard anything about it for a few weeks or a month or
30:50
whatever it might be. So I think we need to be drip
30:53
feeding success internal marketing to all our key
30:57
stakeholders, you know, probably on a weekly basis, certainly on
31:00
a monthly basis so that everybody can actually see that
31:03
we are moving the dial and we are making a real difference.
31:06
Yeah, absolutely. And, and a lot of discussions we
31:09
have with the the C-Suite and organisations, it's talking to
31:13
them about what's critical to them.
31:14
And it's normally very similar metrics, right?
31:17
They want close rates improving, they want average order values
31:21
going up, they want renewal rates improving, the time to
31:24
close a deal to reduce T metrics that when the revenue leaders
31:28
sit there and look at the success of a business, what
31:30
makes a real difference is you know, it's resolving those
31:33
issues and and having an account based approach allows you to
31:36
focus on the deals that are going to close faster, they're
31:39
going to close more often, they're going to be higher
31:41
value. And because you're delivering
31:43
value to a client where it fits really well, your renewal rates
31:46
are going to go up. So I think once they get an an
31:49
understanding that these critical metrics to them as a
31:51
business are going to be, you know, improved dramatically by
31:55
having this approach, it really does help.
31:57
Agreed. We often hear from businesses
31:59
that, you know, keen to get going on an account based
32:02
motion, but maybe they're fearful that they haven't got
32:04
enough resources. So on that basis, what would
32:07
advice would you give to someone operating, you know, within
32:10
limits, but looking to execute some sort of effective account
32:14
based strategy? Yeah, it's a recurring theme for
32:17
me as well, Paul. And I think, you know, people go
32:20
to conferences and they hear things like, you know, if you're
32:22
going to do ABM effectively you need one ABM for every three
32:26
accounts. And they kind of go, Oh my God,
32:28
you know, I've got 5 people in marketing, how am I going to do
32:31
that? It's about looking at all the
32:33
resources you have available and thinking about, you know,
32:36
orchestrating A-Team. So if you think about it, we
32:39
might have half a dozen people in marketing, we might have half
32:43
a dozen people in field marketing, we might have
32:45
somebody in brand or industry, We're going to have some BDRS,
32:49
we're going to have some sales team, you know, a sales team.
32:52
You've actually got quite a big bench there.
32:54
So then the question is, where do we start?
32:56
Well, let's define it. Let's sell it into the senior
32:59
leadership team. Let's work out what our strategy
33:01
should be. Let's think about how we go
33:03
about account selection. Maybe we're not going to launch
33:06
101 to one accounts in year 1, but maybe we could launch 5 or
33:10
10. Maybe we're going to look at a
33:12
number of 1 to few programs and we're going to start with a new
33:15
vertical each quarter. And in each vertical we're going
33:18
to pick 10 to 20 accounts from A1 to many point of view.
33:22
Of course, that's going to be largely digital marketing.
33:25
It's going to be a platform play.
33:27
We're probably going to have to invest in some martech if we
33:29
don't have it already. So it's about having a really
33:33
clear game plan and of course, cutting the cloth according to
33:37
our resource and budget. And I think another thing that I
33:40
often find is that companies sort of think they're going to
33:43
have to do all this themselves. You know, they want to be
33:45
building an ecosystem where they have a really smart marketing
33:49
agency that can do a lot of the heavy lifting, might be more
33:53
than one, but probably at least one marketing agency that can
33:56
help them with research and insight, with value propositions
33:59
and messaging, with content and media delivery.
34:03
They're undoubtedly going to want to be thinking about the
34:05
martech they need. And let's assume they have ACRM
34:08
system and they have an outbound marketing platform.
34:11
At what point do they need an ABM platform and partner?
34:14
What else do they need to really make that sing?
34:17
So I wouldn't say start with a pilot, you know, as you probably
34:21
gathered, but start small and build, or start realistically
34:25
and build. But don't assume that everything
34:27
has to be driven by the four or five people, six people in
34:30
marketing. Look at the wider team and work
34:33
out people's roles and how you're going to use them most
34:36
effectively. Yeah, absolutely.
34:38
And I think that, you know, understanding your goals and
34:40
objectives, etcetera is critical at the beginning.
34:42
And often, you know, how do you identify which accounts you need
34:46
to go after? And I think there's definitely a
34:48
strategy is important before you go putting any tech or anything
34:52
like that in place. But also understanding your
34:54
data, I think is critical because if you don't know who to
34:58
go after, you don't know who's in market.
35:00
In your example, let's say there's 1000 companies we could
35:03
sell to, but we're not going to be able to target all thousand
35:06
of them. How do you decide which 100 you
35:08
need to know and which ones are in market and what buying
35:10
signals that are relevant? Are they engaging with your
35:13
brand or not? Or don't they know who you are?
35:15
And I think all of that is really critical.
35:17
But once you've got that insight and built that strategy out,
35:20
it's, we call it a cruel war rung approach.
35:22
You can't do it all on day one. And if you try to, you're just
35:25
not going to be successful. Yeah, agreed.
35:27
So from your your many years of experience, have you got a good
35:30
example of a company that maybe successfully put ABM at the
35:34
heart of their strategy and what others listening today could
35:37
learn from that? Well, I did see this question in
35:40
advance. Well, and of course it's always
35:41
difficult to talk about organisations who may or may not
35:44
want me to talk about them. If you look at almost any large
35:48
organization, they are now actively engaged in ABM.
35:52
You know, I mentioned Oracle and, and EMC and VM Ware and
35:55
companies like that years ago. I mean literally 1012 years ago.
35:58
Companies like PwC, you know, Accenture, Google, Microsoft,
36:03
SAP, all these companies have very focused ABM strategies and
36:08
they're clearly very successful doing so.
36:11
There was one example of a company that I worked with last
36:14
year, which I thought was quite impressive and they're a large
36:18
software organization based in the UK, 300 million, something
36:21
like that. I wouldn't be too precise, but
36:23
you know, significant without being a global multi billion
36:28
pound company, dollar company. And they're called one advanced.
36:31
They're based up in the Midlands or headquartered in the
36:33
Midlands. And I thought it was really
36:35
interesting because they pivoted literally from a multi faceted
36:39
business with lots of different business lines to a focused
36:42
approach around a number of key verticals.
36:45
And the CEO stood up at their annual kick off last year and
36:49
said we are going to take an account centric approach or you
36:52
know, an ABM focused approach. And interestingly decided that
36:56
it wasn't account based marketing at all, it was account
36:58
based management. And that was what the the three
37:00
letter acronym meant. And literally, I mean, I, I was
37:04
at the kick off, there were probably 6 to 700 people in the
37:07
room, obviously not the entire organization, but a good chunk
37:10
of them. And this was sales, marketing,
37:13
customer success, delivery teams, the works.
37:16
And it was our new way of going to market is through
37:19
verticalization and our new way of going to market within each
37:23
of those verticals will be an account centric approach.
37:26
And I spent quite a bit of time with the various teams talking
37:30
them through. OK, So what does ABM actually
37:32
mean for you? What are your priorities?
37:35
How would you use one to many versus 1 to few versus 1 to 1?
37:39
And each of the vertical teams have their own marketing lead
37:42
and their own sales leadership and, and in fact, you know AVPI
37:45
think within the business. So they all adopted slightly
37:48
different approaches, but the consistent core was
37:52
verticalization and ABM. And then the only question was
37:56
our relative focus in one to one versus 1 to view versus 1 to
38:00
many. So I think in that context, it
38:02
just was a very bold and brave approach.
38:06
And of course it was made possible because the CEO
38:10
absolutely bought into it and wanted it to happen.
38:13
And I won't say that's the ideal or the perfect scenario, but of
38:17
course it is pretty ideal if you've got your CEO standing up
38:20
at your annual company kick off saying we are pivoting the
38:23
business away from the old way of doing things to this new way.
38:26
I'd love it if every client I talk to could do that.
38:30
Of course, that some people might say that's just not
38:32
possible in in year 1. But I do think it illustrates
38:36
the point, which is you need this to be a top down
38:39
initiative. You need it to be a go to market
38:42
strategy rather than something that marketing have cooked up.
38:45
And you absolutely need all key delivery teams within the
38:48
business, you know, to be NBO and to be, you know, engaged to
38:52
make it happen. Yeah, actually it's a great, a
38:54
great story and we'd all have CEOs like that to be in all the
38:58
businesses that we speak to for sure.
39:00
So the market's obviously evolving as as we know.
39:03
But what do you see as a future an account based strategy?
39:07
How's your businesses? You've been prepared for the
39:09
trends that are coming? Well, almost inevitably AI is
39:12
going to crop up in our conversation at some point,
39:14
isn't it? But I still think actually the
39:16
fundamentals of everything we've talked about so far are
39:19
critical. AI is going to enable people to
39:22
do things more quickly and it's going to enable them to scale
39:25
more quickly, I think, and certainly to personalize more
39:28
effectively. So I think without question, AI
39:32
is going to have a significant impact on a number of the
39:34
different things we've touched on.
39:36
So I think that's the biggest single what's new and what's
39:40
going to change. But I do still think it comes
39:43
back to the fact that for ABM be really successful, it should be
39:48
your primary go to market strategy.
39:50
I think it needs the organization to have bought into
39:53
it. I think we need to move away
39:55
from the whole concept of pilots.
39:57
You know, you're either doing this properly or you're not.
40:00
And then I think, you know, there is that sort of how do we
40:03
change expectation and behaviours for people that have
40:05
been used to be. Talking about MQLS for the last
40:08
30 years, 20 years, 10 years, you know, to thinking much more
40:13
about how do we move the dial, how do we increase our footprint
40:17
within accounts? How do we upsell and cross sell,
40:20
How do we break into new accounts for the first time in a
40:22
really effective way? And what do we need to make that
40:25
happen? So I guess my mantra is ABM
40:28
should be front and center of almost everything you do if
40:31
you're working in the enterprise space.
40:33
And then the question is how do you orchestrate your resources
40:36
to support that and in an effective way?
40:38
Yeah, absolutely. I think we're 100% aligned on
40:41
that one. And AI, you're right, it's top
40:43
of mind for everyone right now. And I think if you use AI for
40:48
automating all of those time consuming manual efforts that
40:51
take you away from your day-to-day, it's going to be
40:53
really beneficial. We're hearing a lot of AI
40:57
causing problems in the in the sales side of businesses at the
41:00
moment. I like to call it AI without the
41:02
Y. So these black AI tools are
41:04
saying chase after that account, phone these people without any
41:08
insight on the why. And that about 50% of the time
41:12
they're going off on wild goose chasers and then sales get
41:15
frustrated. They don't want to see those
41:16
signals anymore. It destroys the alignment.
41:18
So we all know AI is the future. I just think it needs to be, you
41:22
know, giving the insight on why AI is, is important.
41:25
It's going to be critical as we go down the line.
41:27
I agree. And another client, not
41:29
necessarily even from an ABM point of view, but they're
41:31
talking about human intelligence plus artificial intelligence.
41:36
And whilst everybody's kind of freaking out that AI, you know,
41:39
the implications from a staffing point of view or a job security
41:43
point of view, I can't quite see it getting to the point where
41:46
you just flip everything into AI.
41:48
You know, I think if it can help you do customer research more
41:52
quickly and less expensively, great.
41:55
If it can help you cut to the chase on value propositions and
41:58
messaging, great. If it can help you personalize
42:02
to particular personas or companies quicker and cheaper,
42:05
fine. But I still think, you know,
42:08
human to brief, human to interpret, human to reality
42:12
check or quality control check is absolutely essential because
42:16
otherwise the old adage of shit in shit out.
42:20
You know, if I can say that on one of your podcasts full and I
42:23
can, then from my point of view, you just got to be really
42:26
careful that it's done properly. Yeah, I, I agree.
42:29
And I saw a really good quote and I'm not going to quote it
42:31
properly now, but on LinkedIn there was a, there was a lady
42:34
saying that if she uses AI properly, it'll summarise all
42:38
the books she wants to read. It'll, you know, do pictures for
42:41
her and all this sort of stuff, which will free her up more time
42:44
to do ironing and cooking. And she said, actually, I want
42:47
AI that does the ironing and the cooking to free me up more time
42:51
to sit and read a book and draw my own pictures, which I thought
42:53
was a really nice way of, of putting it.
42:56
So you sound robber like someone who consumes lots of content.
42:59
So is there any book, A blog, newsletter, podcast, or whatever
43:03
you recommend our listeners should look out for?
43:05
Yeah, I've been a big fan of Dead Bird just for as long as I
43:08
can remember. She's obviously written several
43:10
books on ABM. Her latest book came out in
43:13
March, I think, which is basically the the IBM handbook.
43:16
And I would definitely say anybody who's serious about ABM
43:19
should probably have a read of that.
43:21
You know, in terms of content, I follow John Miller pretty
43:25
avidly. Obviously you're going to know
43:27
him well from his time at Demand Base and he's always got a
43:31
provocative point of view on just about everything.
43:34
So I do enjoy his stuff. Obviously there's so much noise
43:38
on ABM, on online and on LinkedIn.
43:41
It would take me the next hour probably to list everybody that
43:44
I consume content from. But I'd say if if you want, you
43:47
know, a really solid read and you're really serious about ABM,
43:51
then then go and read the book basically.
43:53
Absolutely. Yeah.
43:54
Great reading, gay guests. We must try and get her on at
43:57
some point. Actually, I think that would be
43:58
an awesome 1. So on that note, you've
44:01
obviously been an awesome guest today.
44:02
Robert, are you? And I think actually there's
44:04
probably room for a follow up session here because we've only
44:07
just scratched the surface on it.
44:09
But cheaply asked if I can, would you be able to share the
44:11
names of maybe two or three people in the B2B space you
44:15
think we should bring on the show as future guests?
44:18
Yeah, again, I did obviously have a cheeky little look at
44:21
your list of questions and I was having a think about this one.
44:23
Paul, curiously, we've mentioned two people already and I, I
44:27
actually thought you probably would have had Bev and John on.
44:30
If you haven't, then I think that would be a great start if I
44:34
was picking from the sort of client side of things and, and
44:37
not necessarily people you know, who are CM OS at a global level.
44:41
But two names that I've seen a lot of recently and I know quite
44:45
well personally, Marta George, who's at Ping Identity, who's
44:50
become very proactive on LinkedIn of late.
44:54
And I started working with Ping two years ago, something like
44:57
that, introduced them to their current agency and still have a
45:01
very strong relationship with them.
45:03
And the other one is Leanne O'Connor, who's at Fluke
45:05
Reliability, who again, I've got to know quite well over the
45:08
years. So I think they're both
45:10
opinionated. They have very practical hands
45:13
on knowledge of running teams in EMEA and they would be
45:16
interesting if you were looking at agencies.
45:19
Then there's a couple of, again, not global agencies necessarily,
45:24
but very smart agencies that I work with quite often in the UK.
45:28
One of them is Andy Johnson, who's a Hot 3 and the other one
45:31
is Charlotte Graham Cumming, who's the ice blue sky.
45:35
And both of them are heavily engaged in ABM and heavily
45:38
engaged in AI and obviously working out the implications of
45:42
how does AI fit within the role of an agency and what they're
45:45
doing for their customers. So there'd be interesting people
45:49
to to get on I think if you want some sort of hands on practical
45:52
advice. Yeah, absolutely.
45:54
Thank you for those recommendations.
45:55
I don't actually think we've had any of them on yet, so I will.
45:58
I'll definitely do do my best to get them on future calls.
46:02
I think you've probably opened up lots of questions and future
46:05
conversations for the listeners. How would you recommend people
46:08
best get in touch with you after the podcast if you're happy for
46:11
them to? Yeah, well, first of all, I'm
46:13
always happy to talk to, to most people or let's say anyone who's
46:17
serious about ABM. So the easiest way is probably
46:20
via LinkedIn, that's, you know, the best place to find
46:22
information about me and, and to contact me if you're thinking
46:26
about or you're on proper list, which is B to B marketing's
46:29
community. Obviously I'm very easy to
46:30
access there. And if you're actually in the UK
46:33
for any reason, then we'll be running the ABM conference in
46:36
November, so you can come and see me speak and attend that as
46:40
well. So hopefully that gives people a
46:42
few choices. That's really good and I've seen
46:44
Robert in action many times and he's a great speaker.
46:46
So definitely check that one out.
46:48
Robert, thanks very much for today.
46:50
It's been a really great session.
46:51
As I say, I think we've just opened the the thing rather, so
46:54
there's plenty of opportunities to revisit a future for podcast.
46:58
But for now, thanks very much for your time today.
47:01
I hope the listeners you've all enjoyed this episode and don't
47:04
forget there's over 500 episodes in the series, so make sure you
47:07
check them out. But for now, thanks everyone for
47:10
listening. And until the next time,
47:11
Cheerio. Thanks for joining us for On
47:14
Base. If you enjoyed this episode,
47:16
please be sure to share, rate, review and subscribe on Spotify,
47:20
Apple, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
47:23
This show is brought to you by Demand Base, the only account
47:26
based experience platform built for sales and marketing
47:29
alignment.