Latest / ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women / 171 // The CALM Parenting Method for ADHD, with Katie McKenna

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171 // The CALM Parenting Method for ADHD, with Katie McKenna · ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women

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Hey friends, welcome to the ADHD with Confidence podcast.
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I'm your host, Kelsey, and today we are joined once again by Katie McKenna.
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She is a psychotherapist and an author, and last time I had the honor of interviewing
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her about the book, You're Not the Problem, The Impact of Narcissism and Emotional
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Abuse, and today we get to talk all about parenting.
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So Katie, thanks so much for being here.
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It's great to be here. Thanks for the invite to have me back.
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Of course, I'd love to have you. It was great last time.
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So today we're talking specifically about a parenting method that Katie has.
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So Katie, can you introduce the Kong parenting method to us?
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I can. And maybe I'll take you to maybe why I even did it, because for anybody
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that has listened to the previous episode, sometimes I get asked,
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you know, is this a whole other thing or what's happening? Or are you changing lanes?
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And what I saw myself, so having been raised in, you know, having my own childhood trauma.
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And then I studied to become a therapist. And I actually became a therapist before I had kids.
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I was qualified. Yeah, I was qualified. I remember then going on doing other
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studies. I was pregnant. And I remember thinking, like, I'm not going to make
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any mistakes. Like, I'm going to know how to do it right. And I'm going to be able to protect my kids.
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And I couldn't have been more wrong in,
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being unprepared for the different ways that I was triggered,
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the different ways that still even being a therapist and having done the therapy was going to impact me
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with my own kids, with my struggles, with, you know, the amount of times hearing
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mam, mam, mammy and just that,
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impacting my nervous system in a different way that I didn't hear anybody else
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talking about it, that I didn't realize that when I would see or hear my kids
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play fighting or that squealing,
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that sort of urgency and panic to shut it down, I didn't realize that it would
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again impact me that way.
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And so, yeah, I was looking up loads of literature.
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I was reading all the parenting books and listening to parenting podcasts,
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and I never just felt or heard any of them that talked about the things that
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I was dealing with, the shame, the triggers,
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the fear that despite my best intentions, that I was still somehow.
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Damaging my own kids.
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And that's such a hard place to be in. And one that I think a lot of us can
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relate to is that that fear, like you said, of damaging our kids,
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you know, and I've heard people make jokes about how I'll pay for,
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their therapy in the future and stuff like that.
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But obviously, we'd rather it be that we feel calm in control that we understand.
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And as something that I heard you say a minute ago, and I want to clarify this,
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is that we need more than just the awareness of what to do.
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We need more than just the awareness of what's going on. Like you said,
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the squealing or the mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, that can,
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you know, make us explode or our nervous system can react to that.
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So am I correct in thinking that it's more than just knowing what's happening?
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I think there's two parts to this. That's the way I look at it.
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And like, so let's say the book that I co-wrote, You're Not the Problem,
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is all the information to be able to give you the language to understand what
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happened in your own childhood.
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And that is so important. And that is hard work to be able to recognize, accept.
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And when I say heal, people, like healing is not a one and done,
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right? This is continual healing, grieving, being able to experience joy,
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being able to experience play.
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That's one, actually, when you grow up in a home where you have to walk on eggshells.
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Your nervous system never gets to rest, right?
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Because you're dealing with adult problems. You are the adult that's in the
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room. So you are dealing with either like,
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marital issues, relationship problems, you're being a parent to your siblings,
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you are worried about the bills, you are booking appointments,
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like you have the emotional responsibility of an adult on your shoulders.
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And so there you don't connect to your peers in a real way to your friends.
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You either gravitate to somebody much older or much younger.
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And so you don't get to play.
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And a lot of the times this can be in a way isolating for somebody at school
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because they won't connect to their peers. They'll think that they're even silly and immature.
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Right. And to them, they are because they're dealing with such adult responsibilities.
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So then here when we become a parent and our kids are being raised in safety
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and they're playing, a lot of fears parents have is, I don't know how to play.
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I don't know how to be imaginative. I don't connect to this part at all.
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And I think a lot of the parenting information out there, like all the gentle
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parenting content, which, by the way, I want to firstly say that I agree with
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the whole premise of it. I fundamentally agree with it.
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But I think you're asking somebody that has grown up in dysfunction,
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you're asking them to parent.
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They're assuming that you're coming from a different place, that you've witnessed
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calm and that you're parenting from that.
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And so all the information I see is really how to empathize more with your child,
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how to get your child to know that you understand them and that you're attuned to them and you see them.
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Whereas anybody that has been emotionally parentified, this is second nature to them.
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They only know how to empathize with somebody and let you know that I hear you and I see you.
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Whereas actually, how do I hold limits without guilt?
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How does my nervous system stay safe when my child is the one that's raging and angry with me?
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And I'm triggered because I don't want them to feel like I did.
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I don't want them to feel unseen and heard. And then I end up over explaining
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or over justifying or wanting them to agree with the limit instead of holding the limit.
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Because I don't want to think that I'm being a bad parent or a controlling parent.
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So there's all these fears that are coming in and that are arising.
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And you are only meeting them as your child is meeting those ages.
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Yeah, so typically it can be very difficult for you, depending on how difficult
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it was for you at that age.
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So back to your question, the part of awareness is huge.
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I cannot, I can't say any more than that. And then there is also then this other
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part about what happens then when we become a parent ourselves.
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And so the CAM method that I run is, I would say, is not a normal parenting course.
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It's not a typical parenting course. If you want to go and get like behavior
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charts or star charts or, you know, boundary scripts, this is not the course for you.
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This is for somebody that recognizes their own dysfunction, that recognizes,
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what they've been through, that, you know, maybe even has the language for it,
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that ultimately knows which parent they don't want to become.
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Yeah. And then get really scared when they can hear that tone come out of their
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mouth or think something similar.
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And again, they can be thrown into that fear or guilt and then parent from that
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place, which again is very different than the parenting content
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that I hear, which is about like empathizing with your child and getting your
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child to feel seen and heard.
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Generally, the parents I work with, they have this hands down,
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like that is not, that is not the issue.
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It's their nervous system, their alarm system. And I, that word I use,
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their alarm system, our nervous system is set in childhood. It's programmed in childhood.
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It's calibrated by the people that raised us.
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Now, we can reset it. We can retrain it.
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And so if you think of your nervous system, then like an alarm system,
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right, like a smoke alarm.
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When you learn that big feelings are dangerous, when you learn that somebody's
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upset or anger is dangerous, and when you grow up hypervigilant,
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that you can't miss an emotion, you can't miss a whiff of smoke, right?
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Because to do so would be harmful, right? You need to stay on top of everything and manage everything.
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And so now that hypervigilance being brought over into your own parenting,
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when your kids have these huge emotions, when your kids have these huge feelings.
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We're operating off a different alarm system and that part of us that fires
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first that either shuts down, erupts or wants to fix it yeah,
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appease it, drop the boundary, soften it right, just to make sure their child feels okay.
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You need to work from a different system that recognizes your alarm system and
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to rewire and reset this part first. And that can be done.
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So am I correct in hearing that you talked about the differences in the calm
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method versus other parenting approaches in that this method starts first with the parent with that,
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nervous system regulation with trying to awareness but also the grace and compassion
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and understanding of the fact that we didn't have that example,
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of how to calmly but, you know, consistently set those boundaries.
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Boundaries because they're uncomfortable. Like you said, there's those fears
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that, and I feel that, I feel that with my kids is, and I always beat myself
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up after, you know, saying, why did I give on that boundary?
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Why did I let my daughter do that again? You know, she's, she's going to become
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spoiled or bratty or whatever it is because I do, I feel so uncomfortable.
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And I think there is that question of, is this the right thing?
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And not knowing what is the right thing? What are we trying to build in our
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in our kids and I think so often what we want to feel is that they are happy
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that they're content that they're well adjusted and I think the confusion comes with,
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how do we do that along with like you said you know we have those responses
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and I think that can be so incredibly difficult when we feel triggered,
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by their responses by maybe their frustration,
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their disagreement with a boundary that we've set in place.
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But when we feel we don't feel good about doing that, and we also don't know
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whether that's the right thing, it can be really hard to stick with it.
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Huge. Huge. There's so much in what you said there. It's huge.
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And one, let me even go to what you said about limits and boundaries.
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The CAM parenting course that I run, it's a six-week course.
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There's like three different ways that people can enter into it to hopefully
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make it as affordable and accessible.
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But the six weeks then if you're watching joining and joining the support calls,
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week three is only when we're gonna where we talk about limits and actually
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that's the one that people want first tell me how to set the limit hold the
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limit like where's the boundaries,
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and no it is about this part with regulation but this again is not like deep
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breathing and just count to 10 and you know then be calm this is about one
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recognizing where your base levels are at I actually created a free resource for parents.
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It's a quiz to answer this very question so that you can find out your number.
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A lot of parents think they go from zero to 10, right? So I've asked my child
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to do something three times, four times, and then I, you know,
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it's building up and I just lose it.
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But even from that, they're working from an assumption that they're at zero,
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that they're starting at cam.
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But again, if you grow up being hypervigilant, if you grow up having to be aware
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and monitor your parents' tone, their behavior, the turn of a head,
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the close of a door, the look, you know, hearing the key in the lock that you're
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jumping up and you have to rush around to do things.
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Your nervous system is set at hypervigilance. So it's not set at zero.
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So it's a quiz. It's a short quiz to take about, you know, three or four minutes
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for people to go through.
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And in it, they will find out what their actual baseline number is,
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what they're starting from.
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And what a lot of people discover is that they are starting from,
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you know, whether that's a five, a six, a seven, you know, a four,
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they're discovering what group they're in. And it's to...
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Relieve the shame, right? That understanding of going, oh, if I'm starting with
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this much, right? If we use the smoke alarm analogy, I'm starting with this
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much smoke in the room already.
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So now if some more smoke is added, it's not going to take me long to tip over the edge, right?
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And then there's also the part with the smoke alarm that if it's been calibrated
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on such a high sensitivity, that now my alarm system won't know the difference
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between steam from the shower and a real fire or burnt toast and a real fire.
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So my alarm system, which is our fight, flight, freeze or fawn,
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can be very reactive in those spaces.
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And then when we do react, again, which is different from parents that have
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grown up in a good enough home,
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the guilt and shame that a parent feels that has grown up in dysfunction can be,
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suffocating, smothering like they can drown in it like it can absolutely take
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over our night or evening you know be lying awake feeling guilty beating ourselves
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up promising that we're going to do something different tomorrow and then when
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we make a mistake tomorrow.
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You know we're in this cycle again so in week one
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it's about one seeing which of the four apps of parenting you are right which
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style you go into your freeze fight flight or phone finding out what number
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your baseline is or if anybody wants to go and take that free,
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quiz, they can do that. Find that on my website, katiemckenna.ie.
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And you're working from that place then with that knowledge. Yeah.
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And that is very different from telling somebody that when they have lost it,
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to calm down or step back. Because when we are at that point out of 10,
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we are out of irrational brains.
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It is next to impossible to engage rationally.
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But there's such a fear then for the child that has grown up with a dysfunctional
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parent, that if I step away from this, am I stonewalling my child?
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Am I giving them the silent treatment? Am I going to abandon them?
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Are they going to feel like I don't care? Like I can't walk away.
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So they're trapped in this loop of trying to make their child understand or
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see or where did it go wrong or teaching.
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And yeah, like it just, but you're building and building and building.
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And it's what I learned the hard way was that I didn't realize that I was throwing petrol on the fire.
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I thought I was trying to get my child to understand.
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Here's an example. So my eldest is a teenager and we had an argument not that
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long ago a couple of months back where he was wanted snapchat and arguing over snapchat.
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And normally in that instance, because he was pushing back at me,
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you know, saying everybody else has it and you're so controlling and you're
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a helicopter parent, right?
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But before, that would have resonated because I would have had such a fear going,
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I grew up with a parent that denied my autonomy in so many ways.
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I don't want to be that parent.
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And I would have over-explained. So, you know, telling him about the research,
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about why this is developmentally inappropriate or how it can damage his brains.
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And, you know, maybe pulled up a video or two and tried to explain and to get him to see, right?
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But really, this wasn't about me being getting him to see. It's about me relieving
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my own fear that I'm actually being very controlling at this point.
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And so there's a part that I have to accept the power that I have.
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And there is such a thing as healthy control and healthy power.
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Yeah. And that's generally a thing that when somebody is raised in these environments,
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the shy away from because power is dangerous, power is power over,
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and they don't want to hold that, right?
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And they unintentionally give their child all of this power over them,
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which is very different to their child having their own autonomy.
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And so what can happen is the child can end up ruling the roost,
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right? The child can end up, you know, it's like the tail wagging the dog.
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The child, the parent can end up then walking on eggshells around their own
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child to not upset them and doesn't want to piss them off and,
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you know, doesn't want to set them off in any way.
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I mean, in that, can you hear the relational dynamic of the parent and child?
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I did a TikTok about this just today, saying child grows up with a mother who
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she can't say no to, who anytime she does, the mother is upset,
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angry, gives her the silent treatment, blames her, you know,
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how could you do this to me, or is angry and cold.
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And when that child grows up to be a mother herself, when she now says no to
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her child, that child is angry and throws a tantrum or shouts or screams or slams a door.
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And this is the part that is activated for the parent.
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And typically, they try to re-engage in those moments with the child to make
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the child understand and explain.
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And this is where we can end up throwing petrol on the fire because we're acting out of that fear.
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And in that, so in those moments where we're trying to get our child to understand,
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like you said, you know, show them a video explaining it and try to get them to understand.
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Am I correct in thinking that that's more for our own comfort than it is for our child's benefit?
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Yeah. And this is not a definitive yes, because sometimes is it appropriate?
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Like if a kid is interested and show them a video, surely.
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But if this is like a pattern that you're seeing coming up, yes.
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When your child has a big emotion, do you absorb their distress?
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Is there like an urgency in you that you have to fix it, that you feel so much
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empathy for them that this is so wrong and bad?
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And this is from the toddler to the teenager, right? The toddler having a meltdown
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and crying and screaming on the floor in such distress or the teenager crying or slamming a door.
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What happens inside you when that happens?
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And this is what the course talks about yeah awareness and and then more than awareness because so,
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many kids that have been raised in dysfunctional environments like this they
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are so good in their intellectual mind they will be able to,
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think about all these things and answer them and understand them and they're
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like just give me the information I just want more information but this is not
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about having more information and this is not about having more patients.
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This is about operating from a different system.
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Yeah. So at the beginning, you said you start with figuring out which part are
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you in fight, flight, freeze or fawn and that awareness, that self understanding.
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Do you in the course as well also teach what is a positive thing to do?
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So I know for myself, it's hard in those moments not knowing,
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is this a time where it's better to set a boundary or is this a time where it's
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better to be lenient and, you know, give grace, so to speak?
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Do you kind of talk about the psychology or the reasons behind when you should
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hold boundaries, how you should hold boundaries, when you should or shouldn't
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explain to the kids, things like that?
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So yes and then i like i'll explain that so the six weeks so,
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the and it's the um is it anagram of camera so cam the first week is about curiosity
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actually what's happening within us the second week is about acceptance,
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and that word a lot of people can think that they're in acceptance a lot of
19:20
the time but if anybody has ever gone in and saw your child of any age doing
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something, right, whether that's grabbing something out of the press or hitting their sibling
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or ripping up a book that this shouldn't be.
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That part of, oh no, like, why are you doing that? Like, I told you not to do
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that. Why are you hitting your brother again? This shouldn't be happening.
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And that can even go on further into the feeling of helplessness.
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I don't know why. And this might be just thoughts. It's not even that you're saying that.
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I can't keep doing this. Like, this is so hard. Like, you know, what's the point?
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And again, either whether we're going to erupt, fight, what are you doing?
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Angry, fun, please don't do that. Like, here's something else.
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Just go and, you know, here's some money, go buy yourself something in the shop. Freeze.
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I can't cope with this. Like I just shut down. Like this is too much.
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Or flight. We're just going to do everything ourselves. We're not even going
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to hold them accountable, get them to tidy up anything. I'm just going to fix everything myself.
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And it can lead to such feeling of powerlessness, right?
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That I just, I don't know what to do. And we're caught in this cycle of that,
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denial, bargaining, bargaining with our kids. Please don't do that.
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Please understand. Look, Snapchat, please understand why this is important to you.
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Bargaining, negotiating. Well, what do you think and what would you like?
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Right? Again, we're not clear and trusting what we want.
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What do you think? And okay, and we're sending them confusing messages. Yeah.
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Anger then when they don't do the thing. How are we back here?
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I was clear. I told you all these things.
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And we can end up in this cycle. So in that week, we're talking about actually what is acceptance.
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And acceptance does not mean condoning the thing that's happening,
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but it means that we are accepting that the thing has just happened
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and then actually what cycle can we move into where we feel capable and where
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we have trust and actually what needs are they trying to meet and what skills are they lacking.
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And then the following week and there's a reason that it's weekly for people
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that even just buy the standalone course that don't want the support the course
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drops weekly it only unlocks each week and there's a reason to that for that and me even with ADHD.
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I want it all and I want it now and I would binge it.
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But then we don't learn the skills. And so each week there's like two or three
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skills that I ask you to work on that are.
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When I say simple, they're simple to implement, but they're not easy,
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right? That we have to learn and then we build on them the next week.
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If you're in the support group, each week there's a support questions and answers
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where I can answer your specific questions.
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But then in limits, yes, I'm talking through exactly like when I'm talking about
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limits, like what behavior you don't want? What behavior do you want?
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What does a natural consequence look like? What does holding your authority
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look like? Who holds the power in your house?
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And we're talking about how can you reclaim that.
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Then the following week is about messaging and communication.
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Again, we're going to be talking around the fears of holding your authority
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and what it looks like to have that.
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I talk about the three C's of communication, clear, close and concise and what
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that looks like again to get out of that over-functioning.
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And then week five is about empathy. And again, the parents who grow up in these
22:29
family dynamics have empathy in abundance.
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Like, it is spilling over, but this is actually about empathy with limits.
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A lot of parents fuse with their child when they're having a big distress and
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emotion, when they're feeling upset or angry.
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And we can't calm ourselves, right? We feel that distress and that urgency.
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We need to fix it. We need to soothe them. They need to be okay.
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And a lot of the information out there is told like that that's helping or regulating
22:56
your child whereas that's not what that is.
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This is about like soothing your own distress and putting out that fire from
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inside right but the only way we can do that is by getting our own child to
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stop and so this is about looking at when you over function with your empathy.
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So what does that look like?
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Over functioning thinking so this is somebody that's constantly thinking,
23:17
catastrophizing, worrying, over-functioning doing. So this is where we do everything
23:21
for our child and don't get our child, you know, have any jobs or chores, right?
23:28
And again, this is where it's linked back to childhood because if you were given
23:32
excessive responsibilities, a lot of parents swing the other way and they don't
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want their child to have any burdens or any worries or any responsibility so they can overdo.
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And so we're looking at actually where is healthy empathy and what is empathy with limits?
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And then like you were saying, that inner critic that can come in and beat yourself
23:51
up about mistakes. How can we have empathy for ourselves?
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And the last week then is repair and repeat. So actually when we do make mistakes,
23:59
which we're going to do, just heads up, there is no such thing about perfect parenting.
24:03
And again, when we haven't been shown what a healthy apology is,
24:06
when we don't know what it's like for somebody to take healthy accountability,
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a lot of parents can then go into over apologizing and apologizing for everything.
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And I'm so sorry that you're sad.
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No, we're going to apologize for air behavior. So there's clear like four steps
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in that, the four O's and what that looks like.
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And also the difference between shame and guilt.
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And a lot of parents think that they're feeling guilty, but really what they
24:29
are is they're mired in shame.
24:31
And when we're in that space, it's really hard to parent healthily from that.
24:35
And actually when we do have healthy guilt, how we can recognize that,
24:38
repair, and then still be able to hold that boundary, hold that limit,
24:43
and parent from that place of trust instead of parenting from the guilt.
24:49
This sounds like such a beautiful picture. You know, I'm looking at all these
24:52
different pieces you just explained about the course and picturing going through
24:57
all of these and getting to the end and how good it would feel to have that,
25:01
self-trust in your parenting, even to the point where
25:05
like you're like what you're saying some of these things are so nuanced apologies
25:09
right we think oh well it's just an apology but maybe we've added you know i'm
25:14
sorry for scream at you but and then we add something else so that's not going to be,
25:18
the right kind of reparative apology right or like you said if we over apologize
25:24
and we're turning into that,
25:26
that shame cycle or i'm sure negatively affecting our kids by by over apologizing
25:30
or then maybe putting ourselves down in front of the kids, which once again,
25:34
I imagine is not going to have the right message for our kids.
25:39
I think something else I appreciated about what you said, when you talk about
25:42
empathy, and that a lot of parents who have had trauma in their childhood,
25:49
difficulty in their own childhood, is that we have a lot of empathy.
25:54
But we don't need to get rid of that completely. It's that it's empathy with,
25:59
limits. And I think that's beautiful to think about because I think so often
26:03
it feels like when you're stuck in this shame cycle, it feels like you need
26:07
to be somebody entirely different.
26:09
It feels like, oh, if only I could be like her over there.
26:12
I've noticed this actually a lot when I see other parents and I've said it to them,
26:16
I don't I don't think I could do it like you you just seem like such a chill
26:20
calm you know parent and it's always frustrated me because I felt like it was
26:23
just something that they had that I didn't and something that was inaccessible and so I think this,
26:30
is very hopeful and,
26:33
and I appreciate that about how you have it broken down into these different pieces as well.
26:39
For somebody who is struggling right now, what would you say as far as,
26:46
you know, the alarm system, the nervous system, how to retrain it?
26:50
How long does it take to notice change within that?
26:55
That's a really good question. When I think of this from parents on the course,
26:59
like parents in my community, or even individually, like as a therapist,
27:03
when I see somebody one-on-one.
27:06
It is so hard for clients in this group to recognize when they do something well.
27:13
So even if they have a great day and then,
27:17
nighttime is a nightmare, they will beat themselves up so much over that and
27:22
they won't even give themselves any credit or any acknowledgement of all the
27:27
times they didn't lose it, all the times that they did hold that limit.
27:30
A bit what you're saying there.
27:33
When you do give your title that thing and you don't hold the limit,
27:36
that you can beat yourself up like, oh, why did I do that? And I'm creating
27:39
this cycle, blah, blah, blah.
27:41
I wonder for you, how often do you allow yourself to feel, oh, I did a really good job.
27:47
I held that limit. Like, I'm proud of myself.
27:51
Is that something that comes easy to you? I definitely wouldn't say it comes easily to me.
27:55
I think in the past, I probably struggled with it more than I do now.
28:00
But it has been years of therapy and trying to work through my own issues.
28:07
News but even still I would say I'm still bent towards looking at an entire
28:14
day and if there was one negative interaction I feel like.
28:19
They've failed I've failed it's you know I'm a failure in fact just recently
28:23
you know I went to the playground with my kids yesterday and my kids are three five and seven,
28:28
my boys are the older two and when we go to the playground they'll often start
28:33
these kind of rough games with other kids and they're competing over the playground
28:37
equipment and whatever else it is.
28:39
And I still struggle with feeling like their behavior in any given instant is
28:45
a direct reflection on whether I'm a good parent or not.
28:49
And that is something that I also want to ask you about because I think that
28:52
can be so hard to care so much about our children, and to want to do a good
28:58
job, but also to be slightly confused about what it means to do a good job.
29:04
Because I think so often in society, and depending on what little pockets of
29:08
communities you're in, it can feel like it's about performance.
29:13
It's about how your kids act on the outside towards others. Because I can also
29:18
see my kids have a great heart. And I've seen their compassion and their kindness
29:24
and their generosity and all these other areas. But then in certain situations,
29:28
Their behavior, I mean, to quote it frankly, I feel embarrassed.
29:33
I feel ashamed. I feel like people are judging me.
29:38
How would you respond to that? What are your thoughts on that?
29:42
Again, I want to look at the part from where this can come from.
29:48
When I look at from dysfunctional family systems, image is so important.
29:54
How you behave outside the home is so important because the narcissistic parent
29:59
will implicitly and explicitly tell you that this is a direct reflection on me.
30:06
So every adult that grows up in a home will know what I mean when I say the look.
30:11
That you are out and you say something or do something that you shouldn't have
30:15
said and you get that look that, you know, you're going to be in trouble when
30:18
you get home or you're in trouble right now, but we're going to pretend again
30:21
that everything's lovely and wonderful.
30:24
And so we have to recognize that conditioning and training now,
30:28
that when you are the parent, that this still, when I'm talking about an alarm
30:32
system, a nervous system, is still set then with those expectations.
30:37
So right back when I was talking about week two, we're talking about what is
30:41
realistic expectations.
30:43
And a lot of times we can have really unrealistic expectations for our kids.
30:49
So sort of more Mary Poppins, you know, we're going to go to the park and it's
30:53
going to be a wonderful time.
30:55
Or let me let me change this to me for Christmas Day or going on holidays.
31:00
And this is going to be such wonderful family time and we're all going to get
31:03
along so well and it's going to be idyllic and I'm going to be relaxed and chilled
31:07
and they're going to have such fun.
31:09
And then, you know, there's arguments at the kitchen table or Christmas Day,
31:13
you know, they're up so early, there's a crash that happens,
31:16
you know, like about an hour later or we're,
31:18
in the airport and somebody's crabby and I noticed that part of me that's like,
31:24
be grateful, you know, you're going on holidays.
31:26
And so scared that I even think that because that's what I was grown up with,
31:30
that don't complain, don't moan, you know, you should be grateful.
31:34
So it's recognizing that we have this conditioning first to be able to work
31:40
within the empathy and understanding.
31:42
And I would, so I do talk about in specific examples like this.
31:46
Is what is your expectations than for your kids in the park.
31:51
I mean, if we, if we have time, we can go into this.
31:55
It's, it sounds, I would ask you your expectations. And then it sounds like there's a fear that.
32:02
Other people aren't seeing actually the goodness in your kid,
32:05
that they're seeing them maybe as an aggressor or a bully, and a fear in that,
32:11
that they're not seeing the totality of your child.
32:14
And then you're talking about this fear for me, that they're going to judge
32:17
me, that I'm being a bad parent or I'm being passive or I'm letting them away with something.
32:21
And so here we would be working directly on those fears first,
32:25
whereas what most parenting in courses, do the behavior.
32:29
Okay, so when you go to the park the next time, do A, B and C.
32:33
Yeah, just do this, tell them that, set the limit, set the boundary,
32:36
and then you're still left with mistrust. You're still left with,
32:39
well, what's going to happen here?
32:41
So we're working in a more in-depth way, as the only way I know how as a therapist,
32:46
to get to the root of what's happening, the root of those fears,
32:51
and whether this is coming from something from your past that's playing out in your present.
32:55
And then yes, what is it like for you to have safety if somebody is either judging your child?
33:02
What would that be like for you to be able to sit and your nervous system to
33:08
be able to tolerate that?
33:10
But I'm talking about that their emotions don't have the power over you to drive your behavior.
33:16
That you're able to see what they see and in this moment and they can think what they want.
33:21
Also, we don't know what they're thinking, right? This is, again,
33:24
that hypervigilance trying to understand and fix it for everyone.
33:28
And what would it be like for you to trust what you're seeing, to trust what you know?
33:32
And this is the part that has been taken away from somebody that has grown up
33:35
in dysfunction because they've been gaslit, that they can't trust their own
33:38
experiences, their own emotions.
33:40
And so at the end of this, that you are coming out, week four,
33:44
that is where all this is about trust and how you can build that.
33:46
And I'm very honest, I give absolute clarity for people when we're talking about
33:51
something, but it is that bit deeper to find out what actually is the root of
33:55
this so that you can be able to,
33:59
rest when I'm talking about retrain it's actually for your nervous system for
34:02
your alarm system to rest.
34:05
And I think that that piece that you said about getting to the root of it is
34:09
so important because oftentimes otherwise it feels like a band-aid approach or,
34:15
masking even even what I heard in when you were talking about the situation
34:19
at the playground expectations I hear a lot of rejection sensitivity as well
34:25
and something I've noticed in parenting is that,
34:28
I project my own rejection sensitivity onto my kids.
34:31
I see, you know, maybe a parent look at them, another kid look at them.
34:35
I make assumptions based off of my own experience and fears about what is happening,
34:41
you know, even with some of their cousins and family and stuff like that.
34:45
And as you're saying it, you know, looking at the root, me looking back,
34:48
something that I've noticed is that when I was a kid, I played soccer.
34:54
You'd probably call it football. yes yeah yeah okay I played soccer football growing up,
34:59
and I was always very tall so at this point I'm almost six feet tall so I'm
35:03
quite tall and I would get in trouble because somebody would be much smaller
35:09
than me and they would fall over anywhere in my vicinity and I'd get in trouble
35:12
even if I'd done nothing wrong,
35:14
and now all three of my kids are very tall they're very strong and when I've
35:19
seen them at the playground or in sports they're often treated as the scapegoat
35:24
they're in the vicinity of somebody else and they're blamed for things and I have this,
35:28
this hyper vigilance this awareness and this fear and I've realized you're right
35:33
it is it's my own fear that I'm now bringing forward and projecting onto my
35:39
kids so I imagine that being able to,
35:42
work through that and work through the root of that would be incredibly helpful
35:46
for me to then like you said sit in,
35:49
you know, safety in those moments of feeling the judgment or the perceived judgment
35:56
from other people and still having that self-trust,
35:59
to do what I believe is right in that moment.
36:03
Yes. Yeah. That's the part where you're talking about our kids.
36:08
Our kids are our ultimate mirror to ourselves, right? They are going to reflect
36:13
back and show us our own insecurities, our own thoughts, our own worries, our own fears.
36:19
And so that's why this is very different. If you've grown up in dysfunction where you
36:23
haven't been mirrored your own goodness, your own kindness, your own worth,
36:28
your own value, just in being instead of what you're doing or accomplishing.
36:35
For somebody that has ADHD, you know, Dr. Russell Barkley talks about that you're
36:40
going to be criticized 20,000 times more than a neurotypical child.
36:44
But if you're growing up in a narcissistic household, that's going to be multiplied.
36:49
That's going to be multiplied because you're constantly going to be criticized
36:52
than at home in a much different way.
36:54
You know, there's going to be contempt. Again, there's going to be punishment,
36:57
silent treatment, stonewalling, anger, aggression.
37:00
And so what I want to say is, firstly, I don't believe in the sentiment at all
37:06
that we should ever be grateful for our trauma. I don't believe that at all.
37:11
And I do want to say that you have unique lens, as do I from coming up in the childhood that I did.
37:20
And so you are going to be able to spot injustice and unfairness in such a way
37:27
that somebody else might just ignore or glaze over if they had different set
37:32
of circumstances that they didn't have to be hypervigilant around this.
37:35
And so this is not about ignoring that at all.
37:38
This is about also being able to trust those glasses, that vision that you're
37:43
seeing, to be able to spot the unfairness, spot the scapegoating.
37:47
And then this part, this is the part you're talking about, the trust.
37:51
Okay, I recognize that this is unfair, that this is wrong, but I need to be
37:56
sure that I am not doing this for me because I can't tolerate it.
38:01
I need to be able to meet my child's needs and do what's right for them.
38:07
Yeah. Does that make sense? And that's the part that people often can really struggle with.
38:13
Because when we're triggered, again, we're not in that rational brain and somebody
38:17
can be so protective over this
38:20
and, you know, maybe write letters or write emails and stomp this down.
38:24
Whereas even though what you're seeing is correctly has this just happened one
38:29
time or has this happened two times or even if this is terrible,
38:33
and the coach isn't picking your child or,
38:36
and it's unfair maybe your child is good enough like any of these things that's
38:39
happening we also have to recognize
38:41
that your child is having a completely different experience than you are
38:45
because what is their environment like when they're at home how much support
38:48
do they have around them how much goodness? How much praise are they receiving?
38:52
How much kindness? How much validation?
38:55
And so then it is what is their coping skills around this and what do we need
39:02
to do or where do we need to step in or where can we help them advocate for themselves?
39:08
And again, this is only where appropriate because if they're not able to advocate,
39:11
if they're being in any way emotionally abused, this, you know,
39:14
this is where we do step in.
39:16
But a lot of parents really struggle again with this peace. It's with the trust,
39:21
in themselves of not knowing what to do.
39:23
And so this is why I think the CAM method is more unique, because it's about
39:27
building this. The feedback that I have got.
39:31
It has been unreal for, again, people's own nervous system, their own trust.
39:37
And how we are in one relationship is how we are in all.
39:40
So the amount of people that the feedback I've heard is, this has improved my
39:44
relationship with my work colleagues because I have better boundaries.
39:47
Or I'm able to communicate better with my partner or I'm able to hold limits.
39:51
And I get a lot of single parents on the course, which is absolutely fine.
39:56
And the one thing, though, that I noticed that when there is couples,
40:01
when there's two parents,
40:03
one tends to lead and be more overdue, overempathize, over function,
40:09
doesn't want their child to suffer or struggle in any way.
40:13
And then the other parent can then have less of that empathy and then want harsher
40:21
rules and to be stricter.
40:23
And they're working against each other because the more that then this parent sees the,
40:28
let's just say stereotypically if it's the mother, the mother overgiving and
40:31
overindulging and doing too much, the father then can go the other way and that,
40:35
well, I have to be harsher and have more discipline and more rules.
40:39
And then the more that the mother sees him doing that, the more she wants to
40:42
hold and, oh, like, poor baby, like, this isn't fair.
40:46
And so they're not on the same page at all. They mightn't even be on the same book.
40:51
And so this gives them a framework to be on the same page because they both want the same thing.
40:57
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's important to note too, like you said,
41:00
when one moves in one direction, the other one moves in the opposite direction to try and balance.
41:04
But if you were both in the middle together, you could be balanced like that.
41:08
And I think that's a really good. And I love that you said middle.
41:10
And middle is not like one line, right? Again, when you're brought up with a
41:15
narcissistic parent, there's only one right way, right? It's right or wrong.
41:18
And you have to do things my way or it's wrong. That's not what this is about at all.
41:22
And middle is like a huge area that we can work towards the same thing and that
41:27
we can benefit and complement each other because we are working towards the
41:31
same thing. We're not clashing against each other because kids.
41:35
Very developmentally appropriate will try to play one parent off the other like
41:40
this is appropriate that the entitlement that our kids feel the pushback that our kids feel that is,
41:46
developmentally appropriate and a lot of times again the fear can be shit I
41:50
see my mother or father in my child or are you being demanding like where where like
41:56
you know you think you know everything and that can be triggering in us so yeah
42:00
this is this is the this is the work what's happening us internally
42:04
and then yes of course how do we hold those limits how do we communicate with
42:07
them what is our responsibility and what is their responsibility.
42:13
That's such a beautiful reminder and i think something that i will take away
42:17
from this as well is that what is happening internally for me because when and
42:22
i think often i don't stop to think about,
42:26
how this has to do with my internal dialogue my story, my history, my childhood.
42:32
But when I do, I think back to recent situations and I see it, I see it in everything.
42:38
I see a lot of the fact that the fears of the performance of my children has
42:43
to do with the fears of what are people going to think about me as a parent and a person?
42:48
Am I not going to be accepted because my kids are not going to be accepted now?
42:54
Does this reflect? And it is a lot of it is that performance based approval
43:00
and thinking that you need to act in a certain way.
43:03
It needs to be that way all the time. And yet when I look at it,
43:06
sometimes what has helped me with my kids is when they are having a hard time
43:10
and they, you know, hit their sibling or they've done something that was unkind,
43:15
unloving. When I remember that.
43:18
That I have times where I melt down and I say things that I shouldn't.
43:22
I lash out at people, people that I love, people that I care about.
43:26
But I hope that in those moments, they still see that I am good inside,
43:30
that I am a good person, that I am still loving, even if I have moments where I'm not showing that.
43:38
When I remember that, it is one of the most powerful things for me to look at
43:42
my kids and say, hey, you know what? This is a moment.
43:46
Sometimes it's a phase, a little bit longer, but sometimes it's a moment and
43:49
there can be a lot of things that contribute to it and you don't always necessarily need to know,
43:54
why it doesn't need to be oh you're hungry or you know later you're pmsing or
43:58
whatever it is right it doesn't need to be about specifically what the reason
44:03
is but to look at people holistically,
44:07
our kids and then also ourselves holistically of,
44:10
i am this entire person and sometimes i have really beautiful moments where,
44:16
i you know should win a nobel prize Maybe not quite, but, you know,
44:20
I should encourage, you know, praise myself for whatever it is.
44:22
And then other times where you're right, like the guilt and I should apologize.
44:27
When I say should, I know that word can be tricky, but where I want to apologize,
44:31
to repair and reconnect with my child.
44:34
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's it in a nutshell. What you're describing there
44:38
is what I talk about, like the one to three, you know, when I was talking about zero to ten.
44:42
That one to three that we recognize that we're human and that we're fallible,
44:46
but ultimately we're coming from a place of trust, a place of safety,
44:51
right? The opposite of fear.
44:53
Yeah. Trust and safety and also capability, right? because I'm capable.
44:58
I'm able to handle whatever life throws at me.
45:01
And when we are in that space, you know, I'm even going to say 60.
45:06
70% of the time, there are going to be the times where we lose it,
45:10
where we can overreact, where we behave in ways we don't want to.
45:14
And again, if you have a system that you're able to recognize this,
45:18
work, apologize, and move back into this place, you create more ease in your
45:25
home. You create more freedom. There's more laughter. There's less shouting.
45:28
There's more fun. There's more play. You're able to lean into this part more.
45:33
And because there's way more space then, you're going to have much more capacity,
45:38
to then when something's building, right? So, oh, ma'am, ma'am,
45:42
mommy. Oh, he hit me. Oh, he's touching me again. He has toes on my side of the couch, right?
45:47
There's going to be more capacity to listen to this.
45:50
Whereas if you are sitting at a six or seven starting your day there's,
45:55
not much capacity in that right you can wake up dreading your day you can be
45:58
exhausted again the sounds of your kids even laughter and playing can be overwhelming
46:03
to the nervous system and so it's about creating more,
46:07
capacity in that being able to repair when we do make those mistakes.
46:11
And it's just about staying in that trust and moving from living in that fear
46:17
and hypervigilance that most people are just so familiar with.
46:20
It's just they're normal. They know no other way.
46:23
And I think, too, something you've reminded me of today that I've talked about
46:26
in the podcast previously, but how much time and energy we expend,
46:32
on our inner dialogue with our fears and our guilt and our shame and,
46:38
you know, comparing ourselves to other people, comparing our kids to other people.
46:41
Thinking we're not good enough our kids aren't good enough all of that internal
46:46
dialogue that goes on that can be putting us at a higher level to begin with because when I look at,
46:53
you know my kids and I start with a fear of am I good enough do I fit in do
46:59
I belong you know things like that,
47:02
then they do one little thing and I'm already on edge I'm already already agitated I'm already afraid of,
47:09
something else happening and so you're right when when you allow that that space and that capacity,
47:15
it's a positive snowball effect of now my kids like you said have more space
47:19
to laugh and have fun and it's been actually really interesting to notice.
47:25
When my kids can get me to laugh, it is probably one of the most joyful times
47:31
that I see on their faces when they can get me to laugh.
47:36
I see their face, their eyes, their whole body just lights up.
47:39
And so I think remembering sometimes, too, that this becoming whole,
47:46
knowing what the root is, finding that healing, finding that way forward.
47:50
Now it's not just going to help me.
47:52
It's going to overflow out in a positive way to my entire family.
47:57
Because what you're describing is you existing. When you grow up in a narcissistic
48:02
relationship, you don't get to exist in your entirety.
48:05
And so in the parenting course, there's, I mean, I take them through exercises
48:11
to actually, what are your needs? How do you meet your fun needs?
48:13
What does this look like for you? Again, the focus in a lot of courses is about your kids.
48:18
But actually, what brings you fun and joy? And there's an exercise to take you
48:21
through that because I did a TikTok on this as well the other day and it was...
48:26
You know, again, coming from the fear, oh, well, I don't like to play Armies
48:30
or Barbies with my child.
48:31
And, you know, am I doing wrong? And I was saying, well, what do you like playing
48:35
with? And a lot of parentified children love structured play,
48:38
something that is a beginning, middle and end. So like a board game or a card
48:42
game or a jigsaw, let's say.
48:45
And that's all well and good. That's something that you can play with your child.
48:48
But then I want to separate your child and ask you what is fun for you? What do you enjoy?
48:54
You know, maybe what did you enjoy as a child? And for some people,
48:58
they really struggle with, I don't know, I'm always doing, I'm always busy for somebody else.
49:02
I actually don't know what brings me joy. So there's an exercise even to take
49:05
your time through this. But for the sake of this, let's say that you figure
49:10
out that, you know, your joy is live music. You love concerts.
49:15
Well, one, okay, I wonder how you can do that for yourself to meet that need.
49:19
I know financially that that mightn't be viable, but is there any way that you
49:22
can do that for yourself?
49:24
And then if it's not, let's bring that down smaller. Okay, what would it be
49:27
like to listen to that person on the radio, to put that on your phone?
49:31
What is it like to listen to that in the car?
49:33
And then it's like, well, no, my kids want to listen to their music.
49:36
It's like, well, you get to exist too, right?
49:38
What is it like for you to listen to your music? Your kids don't have to enjoy
49:43
it, but they get to experience you experiencing something that you enjoy, right?
49:49
So this is what the work is about. When I'm talking about resetting and regulating,
49:54
a lot of people think like yoga and deep breathing. It's not.
49:58
We're regulated when all our own needs are met.
50:01
Our sleep, our rest, our mind, our fun, our play, our need for healthy power,
50:09
our need to feel capable.
50:12
And so this is the work of regulation, that we exist and that we don't have
50:17
to always be in servitude to everybody, that we get to exist and meet our own
50:22
needs and enjoy it without the guilt.
50:25
Absolutely. Yeah, just that piece of being able to exist. I know sometimes people
50:29
use the term take up space.
50:31
This is something that I work on with clients in coaching as well,
50:35
as well as I'm working on creating a course. And that's a part of it because
50:38
we do, we need, we need to have those life-giving things.
50:42
Pieces in our life and recognize that they are not selfish.
50:46
And in fact, that our kids enjoy seeing us be whole and fully existing as the
50:55
most vibrant version of who we are. And if they don't, that's okay too.
51:01
We still get to exist separate to them. Like that is wonderful when that happens.
51:05
Again, when people hear that, it's like, oh, my kid could enjoy themselves through
51:08
me that can be a natural happenstance yeah yes but if it doesn't they can be
51:15
miserable but you can feel safe in your body
51:18
that's what we're talking about here while still being attuned to them and still connected,
51:24
absolutely okay well thank you so much for all of this information,
51:28
can you let us know about where people can go to find out more and then when
51:33
or how they can sign up for the calm parenting method yeah so all my information
51:38
is on my website katiemckenna.ie that's you'll find the quiz there as well that's a free resource
51:43
the calm method is.
51:46
It's constantly running there's three different ways that you can join one is
51:49
that you it's called the solo option and you take that and you watch through
51:52
the course the next one is support so that is the course and then you have support
51:57
calls with me and interaction with me for out throughout for the six weeks
52:01
and And then there's an extra option that's private, so it's the same as the
52:03
support, but you also have the choice of two private calls with me if somebody wants.
52:08
So it's the same course, there's just different, it depends how much of me somebody
52:12
wants and how much support or answering questions in that. But it's all on my
52:16
website, katiemckenna.ie.
52:18
Perfect. Okay, thank you. I will link that below and then I can link the quiz
52:22
below as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here today.
52:26
I know this is going to be helpful for those that are listening. Thank you.