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Exploring Pass Rushing with NFL Legend Ryan Kerrigan · Performance Explored Project

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's boring people.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's blowing our mind.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: The HF Center.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't want to be here.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Perception is the engine that drives our entire space.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: On today's episode of the Performance Explorer Project, I have the all-time leader in stacks for the Washington Redskins, Ryan Kerrigan.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: He breaks down the art of pass rushing, not only from his time as a player, but now as a coach.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about concepts of the get off, the pass rush line, dealing in the combat zone, and finishing at the top of the rush to get a sack.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: He also breaks down his signature move of using the long arm.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I really think you guys are going to love this episode.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: 11 years in the NFL as a player, four as a coach, four times Pro Bowler, Walter Payton Man of the Year for the Redskins, and all-time sack leader for the Redskins with 95 and a half.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: You said a quote to me and said, I want my actions to reflect my priorities.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think you think you did that?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think so, and in in large part.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think uh, you know, as a competitor, you always think about the things you didn't may have not have achieved and you know, things that you would have liked to accomplish still.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like, you know, my day-to-day process, both as a player and now as a coach, you know, my I have to just always, like I said, try to make my actions reflect what my priorities are.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: If I want to be this, I have to do this.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: If I want to be a great father, I have to act like do take action that reflects being a great father.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: If I want to be a great football player, if I want to be a great husband, if I want to be, you know, a great coach, my actions have to reflect that.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's not only something I try to take as a player, but in all realms of life.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of the beauties of pass rushing is that it's not one size fits all.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like you get guys that are speed guys, you get guys that are more power, you get guys that are really good with their hands, really good in the combat zone.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there are some underlying principles that everyone can apply that really, that really can, that really transcends all body types and transcends all rush styles.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And those four things are your takeoff, you know, whether that's responding to the ball, whether that's responding to the guy that's moving in front of you, because a lot of offensive linemen like to jump the snap count, which I don't blame them.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: When you got you got someone with gas off the edge, you're trying to get off the ball too, just like they are, says an offensive lineman.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so your takeoff, your track, you know, how efficiently you're going you're going to the quarterback because you don't want to be too far upfield, you don't want to be too flat to where you're just running right down the face of the offensive lineman.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Then we're talking about what you're doing in the hand in the combat zone, what you're doing with your hands, what you're doing with that fight, because there's gonna be a fight.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be a fight between you and that offensive lineman during the down.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so what are you gonna do when you get into that fight?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And where and what are you gonna do when you get to when you encounter him at certain points within the rush?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the finish.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: How's your body position gonna be on the finish?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna look different when you're power rushing a guy or whether you're working the inside edge or the outside edge.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So working those four components and emphasizing those things, like I said, are they apply to all rushers, whether you're a speed guy, whether you're a 230-pound speed guy, or whether you're a 280-pound, you know, more of a brute guy.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing we like to work on is our takeoff.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And when people work on get-off or takeoff, whatever you want to call it, they they think they just think of how I'm how I'm moving when the ball movements, how I'm responding to the stimulus.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's important.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that important?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because you want to be able to put pressure on the offensive lineman.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: When that ball moves, if you're moving at or when he or when that ball is moving, you want to put pressure on offensive linemen.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because when if you ever look over at offensive linemen or in indie drills during practice, they want their practice setting right here where they're nice and square to the offensive.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're sorry, they're nice and square to the line of scrimmage, nice and square to the defender.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because when they're square and their hips are square to the line of scrimmage, they're strong here.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's when they start getting turned.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's when they start getting their base starts to narrow.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's when they become weak.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's when they become susceptible to not only power moves, but also your finesse moves, because then you can change direction on them better.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why they get the get-off and the takeoff is so important initially, because now we're putting pressure on that offensive lineman, getting him out of that comfortable base, that comfortable set that he wants to be in.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny you say that because even out of like strength and conditioning, everything is like neutral spine, squared position.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the second we start turning the spine, it's like, oh, now we're dealing with like the spine, our rotation, our mobility.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like you are just trying, like trying to get him out of obviously his strongest bench press position.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like the second his shoulders turn, now he's off-centered.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: His, you know, he's opening up.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now he's not in that comfortable spot to be in.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you just said it, getting their shoulders turned, getting them perpendicular to the line of scrimmage, getting them parallel to the sidelines.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: When we get when you get a guy in that position, that's got to be a win for us because they're they're in a vulnerable position and we are in the advantageous position.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why that initial takeoff, that initial launch get off is so important because it puts pressure on him and puts the ball in your court as a as a pass rusher.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there are a couple different ways to work it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: One, it's just you know, working off the ball.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you work, you know, you did you if you could you know.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is my moment right here.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is my moment.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you get you, we just what idiot?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: But this once that ball moves, yeah.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the more let me redo that.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, sorry, butterfing is once that ball moves, the more, the quicker we're out when that ball moves, and the the further we're advancing across the line of scrimmage before that ball's in the quarterback's hand, the more pressure that's on that guy, and the more the better we're gonna have, better a chance we're gonna have to be able to win that down.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you can work off work it off that, but you can also work it off of the offensive lineman because, like we talked about, sometimes a lot of these offensive tackles, they're trying to get out too.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So they're timing that snap count just as much as we are, and they know the cadence.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the disadvantage that we're at.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: They know the cadence, they they know what the ball, what, when the snap is coming, whether that's a silent count or whether they're on you know, they are on the verbal, like they are in most home games.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they if we can, you know, say in and we'll know, and you we generally know going into a game play into a game uh and game week, okay, this guy jumps to count.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: This guy is we're gonna be man key this week.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna be ball key because we're playing this guy who likes to take off early.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we're instead of instead of being more ball key right here, we're gonna be man key.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that way when Vernon moves, I'm ready to take off and get into my rush then.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: What are you looking for from that offensive line?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are tendencies?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, responding to a ball, responding to the snap call of the quarterback or the cadence that he has, which is probably pretty standard for what he normally does.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are there things that you're looking for off of the uh off, I guess it would be the tackle that they're like, oh, when he does this, I'm like how much goes into that?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So certain, so when you're look when you're talking about the get-off, yes, and the takeoff, yes, you're you are looking at certain things.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Certain guys, certain offensive linemen, you'll notice like, okay, like he might bow in a little bit, you know, to you know, before he before he starts setting back.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Almost like he's trying to load up.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, starting to load up.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, we'll say, hey, key is right knee this week.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll see that right knee twitch down, and then at that point, he's getting ready to explode out and get to it into his pass set.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Then of course, too, you know, when if we're a ball key, uh, if we're ball key that week, we have a home game and we got the you know, got got the crowd behind us, and they're on the silent count.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we know after the center, you know, bobs his head, then the ball, then the ball's coming.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we we can prepare, you can prepare for you know, working your get off and working your takeoff in that way.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: How much goes into that detail?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know you said you watch a lot of tape, and you're even talking about how you were watching it in the hyperbaric chamber and just making the most of your time, which I know goes a lot into it, of watching that tendency of that person.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, like, are you spending that much amount of time of trying to just find that knee or like almost like, hey, I found it, guys.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is what we're looking for.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: When you when you find it, then you go back to the film to confirm it.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you and you can't you can't just go off one game because teams are smart.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're not gonna just, you know, most of the time, more often than not, they're not just gonna continue to go back to the same kind of thing, but you go back to it and you confirm it over multiple games, and you kind of you you put yourself in on the film.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: You say, okay, I'm watching, I'm watching so-and-so play, but I'm putting myself in that position.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, okay, I'm keying that knee, keying that key in that knee.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm I'm I'm vision, I'm in visual, I'm visualizing myself taking off at that point so that I can, so that when by the time I get to the game, I've I've been there.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there before mentally.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so now I just got to re-respond physically.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Being in the league for 11 years, those actions that you were talking about, how did those change?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would imagine coming in fresh out of college, maybe obviously your things change.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Life, you you know, you get married, you're having kids, um, you're getting older.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did that change and how did you adapt to that?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you become a lot smarter as you as you get older in the league.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know, I know I did early in my career.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was, I feel like I always took better care of myself than most.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I always really worked to make my body a priority.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I just, as I got older, I got smarter on how to do it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I'd really learned how to sleep better.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I learned how to recover better.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I learned how to just be more present, you know, outside of the building as well as inside of the building.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that, you know, when I was, when I was inside the building, I was fresher mentally as well as physically, if that makes sense.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that meant like if I did go, you know, go to a social function, like I was present there.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't thinking, okay, I need to be home and and do this.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, if I was, if I was at the building, I was totally locked in there.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, just being where my feet were was a was something that I became smarter about.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because early in my career, you're you might be out or you might you you might be thinking like, oh man, I better get back home.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but then it's like, oh, then conversely, you know, you could be at, you know, at work thinking, oh, you know, I I I am tired, I gotta get this done, but I'm really tired.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should, you know, go home and take a rest.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just being where your feet are, I think was something I became much smarter about as I got older.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: How did you how did you manage that?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know me, that is something that I've really tried to prioritize because it's like kind of that half in, half out.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm at home, but I'm checking my phone.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm at home, I'm following up with my emails.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking a call while I'm at home.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I you hear people say that, like be where your feet are or whatnot.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot easier, a lot easier said than done.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I've messed up on that a lot, but it is definitely something I try to, and it's something as simple as when I would used to drive home, I would stop like you know, a couple minutes in my into my neighborhood before I got home, and I would check my phone and stuff then.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So then when I did walk through that door, it was like I already did the things that I would need to check on my drive home or whatnot.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any things like that for you that helped you get that mindset of being more present?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's just it has to be a conscious thought.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, okay, I'm I'm at home, like let's leave.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And especially as now as a coach, like I'm I'm at home, I'm with my kids, like let me leave work at work, or hey, I'm at I'm at work now, like let me, you know, let me focus on work.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uh you you can give yourself little remain little reminders, but it's ultimately just has to be a conscious decision, like, hey, I'm I'm here, this is where I am gonna be, not only physically, this is where I'm gonna be mentally.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and look, it's like you mentioned, it's easier said than done.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can first acknowledge that, okay, like I need to be here, then next step is to be there.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: The conscious efforts of being where your feet are, being present, it's funny because we're talking about past rushing, and you talked about like going into something with a plan.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I have a plan, but I'm ready to change my plan depending upon what you show me.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: As your player, as a player coming in raw, athletic, like ready to take on the league, like I'm ready to do what I did in college type thing.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Did that change or evolve as you got around like grown, like you're around grown men now?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like everyone is in the NFL.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not in college, you might play against a couple NFL guys.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone now is a professional.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no question.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I came into the league and I I thought, you know, I was just gonna be sacking the quarterback left and right.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is uh you did quite a bit of it.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I did in college.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, I'm I'm gonna do it in the pros, no problem.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I what I quickly learned is man, like the if you're just gonna rely on what you did in college or what you did to get to get where you currently are, like you're never gonna get to where you want to be.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I unfortunately took you know a couple years for me to realize that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, because I had seven and a half sacks my first year, eight and a half, my second, eight and a half, my third.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until my fourth year that I kind of broke through and I and I got 13 and a half.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, like, and and it was it was little details.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember I still remember my first career game like so vividly because that game I had an interception for a touchdown, which was really, which was really damn cool.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like I never scored in college, so to score my first career game was awesome.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: But what I kept getting drawn back to that game was how poorly I pass rushed.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember I just like I kept thinking to my and I and I couldn't quite figure out why.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, why aren't like like I'm I'm athletic, I'm young, like why am I not beating this?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I rushed well in college, like I had a bunch of opportunities.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Why didn't I why did I not rush better in this game?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it turns out, like, and this you come to find out, like, okay, like, well, this guy's been doing it for a really long time.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's more technically sound than you are, and and I was just light years away from where I needed to be from a technical and an efficiency standpoint.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what you know held me back that game and and kind of prevented me from initially reaching the heights that I wanted.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then look, I'm not, you know, gonna act like I played poorly.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I did, but I did just it like it, it was those little things, the the attention to detail and the fundamentals that I was lacking initially.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Next component.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So after we'd work our takeoff, now we're talking about our pass rush track or pass rush line.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: People will use different terms for it, but it used to be in the old and back in the olden days, a lot of the issues guys had in rushing the quarterback, especially on the edge, they would make these vertical lines, these vertical bows around the offensive tackle to try to get to the quarterback.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they were really inefficient because you would get up here, you would turn that, you'd turn, turn your rush at about eight, nine yards, or sorry, turn at about 10, 11 yards, quarterback steps up and is able to complete a pass, and you're just getting washed by the offensive tackles.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so what did we do to correct that?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: We made these this drastic change to okay, I'm gonna tilt in, I'm gonna make my line directly at the directly at the quarterback, and oh, I'm I'm I'm just gonna, you know, I'm gonna get there that way.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: But what then what we found was we're running right down the middle of the offensive lineman.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And as we talked about earlier, if he's not turned, if he's square, he's strong as shit.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's not going all right.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Am I allowed to?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, he's he's strong as shit.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I can't and and if he's square to the line of scrimmage and he's strong and I'm running into him right here, he's 350 pounds, I'm 260.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, the laws of physics are gonna take over on that one, and you're gonna get stopped.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so what guys are doing a lot better now is we've kind of we've kind of met in the middle.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're not here, we're not here.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're taking a nice, efficient line right to the court, right?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not right to the quarterback, but putting pressure where we're able to put pressure on the offensive tackle in a quicker amount of time, but also not run right down the face of him, where we're still able to get him turned, still able to get him in a vulnerable position.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that means vulnerable to both speed moves, to finesse moves, and to your power moves.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why that track is so is so paramount, it's so important.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the, and I'm very passionate about it because you know, I had a coach that came in um my fourth year playing the league, Brian Baker, who really, you know, you know, drilled, you know, emphasized this with me, you know, a ton because it was a deficiency in my game.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was too much of a guy that ran straight up the field and thought I was gonna just beat a guy with speed every time, and these offensive linemen were just sitting there, sitting there, sitting there, and just push me around the top of the quarter, top of the quarterback.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so that pass rushed line is is huge.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's paramount.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And now, how do we drill that?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you hear I I'm a believer that you, you know, if you could be my offensive tackle right here.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I look at my offensive tackle and I envisualize a spot about two and a half yards behind your outside foot, and I'm taking off and I'm running a 40-yard dash to that spot to try to put pressure on you, to put try to put you in a vulnerable position.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, because at that point in the rush, I should be able to know, okay, where is he at?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I have the edge on him, I'm taking the edge, I'm ready to work my hands and keep the outside edge.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Running my 40-yard dash to this spot behind his heel, and I'm trying to win on the outside edge.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: If I try to win on the outside edge, I'm either one, gonna win on the outside edge, two, gonna win with power, or three, I can win back in the inside because I'm setting, I'm creating the illusion of speed.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: If I create the illusion of speed to the outside, then I'm gonna have, I'm gonna have three ways of beating this guy.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he has to adjust to that.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: He has to, and you're gonna, and you're well, and you're gonna adjust like basically off where he is on the track.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you smoke him off the ball and your get-off's good and you have that outside edge, bam, I'm taking that outside edge.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: If he beats me off the ball and he's covering up my line, then I can respond and work to the inside edge.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can contain through the B gap.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a common misconception is oh, you gotta stay outside if you're the edge rusher.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, you can contain through the B gap, you just got to get vertical afterwards.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's some times where you're gonna be, he's gonna be right on your line.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you take off, he's right there, and you're gonna have to deal with him with power.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: If your get-off is good is good and your line's efficient, you're still gonna be able to speed to power rush him well.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's why I'm so passionate about the track and in your path to the quarterback, because you have to give yourself multiple avenues of winning based off of where you where based off where you meet the offensive tackle in that rush.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it not only serves as a purpose to to help you because you're bringing force equals mass times acceleration.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you're bringing acceleration to this guy who's for a lack of he's kind of stationary.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's moving, but you're you're coming into him.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But also the faster you get to him, the the the more you're taking away his space.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you're trying to, if you get, if obviously the fastest guys that get to him, though, that they're having to like, yeah, they're having to adjust faster.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they're gonna they're having to adjust faster.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you just did it right there.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: As you when you showed a panic state, you turned your shoulders.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, you're you're not as strong.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and then when I do come with the power, you're trying to just brace off of that leg, and you're that's gonna be a win for the defense event more often than not.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Coming from being a student athlete where you are focusing on academics, you have other things going on.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: As you made that switch to now that now I am trying to become more technical, more whatever.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Did that come from like people in the room?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're seeing the other professionals, and you're like, oh wow, like I see what they're doing, or was it more of I'm not where I want to be?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think like technically.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think you have your vet your veterans that can bring some things to light, but also coaches bringing things to light and and putting it in terms that that you can understand.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I remember a coach I had that at that time talking to me about like, Ryan, you're running right up the hash on this pass rush, which which means you're kind of like we talked about earlier, you're too vertical in your pass rush and you're not putting any stress on the offensive tackle.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I I hadn't, and I know it sounds silly to me now because 15 years from removed from that, it's like, yeah, like why, like, of course I wasn't getting there.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just running straight vertical and thinking the guy's gonna come chase me.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, he's just gonna sit back there and and protect Eli Manning and not let him get touched.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it wasn't until I, you know, really got more technically sound with how you know being efficient toward the quarterback that I was realizing, okay, like this is how I need to rush, this is how I need to be, you know, more efficient and more detail oriented.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um that and so the coaches bringing that to light, but then the players, you know, see watching them, you know, do it, guys that had been around the league, you know, for you know, that were more experienced than me, a Brian Arakpo, a Lorenzo Alexander, seeing the guys that had done it, that helped too.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, stepping into that locker room with those guys that you just mentioned, um, was there a moment where you were like, oh, this is it?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like almost like a welcome to the NFL, like, okay.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I had a couple my rookie year, honestly, and one of them was like we just talked about, like getting a touchdown in your first game, but then not feeling like you played very well.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of a welcome to the NFL because it's they weren't wrong.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like they were like, it's like, yeah, you got a touchdown here, but like look all these rush opportunities you missed.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was one of them.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: But even before that, during training camp, our first preseason game, we're playing against the Pittsburgh Steelers, and I look across the line of scrimmage, and you know, Ben Rothisberger's, you know, the quarterback, and you know, I'm a young rookie.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: This guy's won you know a Super Bowl and is a big star, and I'm looking across the line of scrimmage.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, well shit, I'm really here.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's let's go do this thing.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and and and that was that was kind of a a welcome to the NFL moment in its own way, just because.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's like okay like you're you're not in kansas anymore Dorothy like let's you know let's let's get to work but then also too um on a on a serious note seeing the turnover the amount of turnover in the NFL that was something that you didn't you don't experience in college in college you have you know 100 guys on the roster and they're gonna be there you'll have some guys at least back at you know before the transfer portal and all like it is now but like you'd have you know 100 guys that were largely gonna be there unless you know you had some transfers and and some guys but those were fewer and further between back in uh oh seven to ten when I played in college so then I got to pro the pros and it's like we initially go to training camp with 90 guys and then after training camp there's 53 and you see all you know you you see like the equipment guy taking the the plates off the name plates off the lockers and all and all that it was that was a a sobering moment because it's like oh wow this is like this is really a job and this is really a you know a job now this isn't you know guys are trying to feed their families guys are working and um that was a very real like welcome to the NFL moment for me because it was it was just seeing and seeing that that happen and seeing how okay this is this is the NFL this isn't college anymore.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: When you had to change your I don't want to say you change your game but even like how you mentioned we were talking earlier like you would rush vertical and just try to beat them around the edge did that did that kind of be like oh like did did it did it kind of step on your confidence a little bit as in like oh I have to do something different or I haven't done that like do I know if this is going to work I have to change something that I've been so successful with.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was well I I luckily for me luckily and unluckily I saw that what I was doing wasn't working.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had documented video proof that okay like like like I I need to do this better or I'm not gonna be the player that I want to be.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm lucky that I that I like it wasn't like oh you're take your you're changing me and I'm and I'm killing it this way.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like no like I'm I'm doing okay but I'm not killing it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I wanted to learn I wanted to learn how can I like how can I like maximize my abilities because that's what it really came down to to me and that's where a lot of my motivation came from was like I knew I was blessed with with skip with size and the skill set and an opportunity and it's like now it's my job to maximize it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you know for for the coaches to you know teach me how to maximize it I was all ears because I knew that that I didn't have it figured out and football is a game that's that'll be forever interesting to me because you'll never have it fully figured out whether as a player or as a coach so it's like if you aren't willing to learn if you aren't willing to adapt you're gonna you know you more often than not you're gonna come up short and I'm fortunate I had coaches and players that were able to help me learn and help me grow and and and maximize myself.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So next we talk so we talked about the takeoff we talked about the the track now we'll talk about what we do in the combat zone.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that largely depends on where you're at in that rush.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what I just talked about in terms of where you're gonna meet the offensive lineman if I beat you to that spot and I have the outside edge now we're working the we're working hands and we want to work we want to work wrists and elbows we want to work joints get it and get as much arm as we can so if I'm working the outside if I'm working on the outside edge here I'm saying okay I'm working I'm trying to get both hands right here.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: One of the common things that I I see a lot of guys do that that when uh when you're facing an offensive lineman that's an inside hand puncher they try they still they want to go cross chop the outside edge and chop chop an arm that he's not giving you and don't do anything with this and this hand just pings you around up the up the field.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: You want to always want to be able to make sure you're taking care of that inside hand if you're rushing a guy that's an inside hand rusher.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So having a plan for that inside hand whether that's with your stab or with your chop or with your you know swipe you want to have a plan for that inside hand.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not just thinking about obviously keying on that arm which most people do you're also thinking about what they can do with that that inside hand yeah and and and and look this goes into a lot of film study.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of puncher is this guy?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is he going to be a two-hand puncher?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is he a combination puncher?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is he a guy that's gonna just kind of wait for me to swing on air and miss and then throw his hands and what kind of hand puncher is he and and so that's that's gonna determine a lot of what you do when you're talking about finesse rushing or or rushing with your hands.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: When you're rushing with power yeah I hear a lot of different guys you know say different ways of doing it some people believe that you want to go and stab for the via the neck and you want to control him that way.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Some people get away with it more of your guys with you know freakishly long arms they can they can get away with it I think a more appropriate target is that inside that inside chest plate one because it's a better leverage point and you'll be able to control the offensive lineman better right here than you can right there because when your elbows out like that you're just not in you're not as controlled and strong there.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're right there you're able to be really controlled and strong with your thumb up and and you're able to grip the pad better.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's not as much surface to grip there.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: The last part of that of our rush foundation we talk about is the finishing aspect.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's going to look a little different what uh when you're you know finesse rushing or speed rushing or whether you're power rushing.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when we get to the top of the rush right here if uh you can uh turn uh turn uh sorry you can get a little more square so when you uh when you're working if you let's say you've won to the outside edge so you've beat the you've beaten his hands you mean you've beaten his hands now I'm at this position to win to the outside edge we want to see you reduce your blocking surface as much as possible and finish as tight back to the offensive tackle as you possibly can.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we want to do that?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because every little bit at the top of the rush is important.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: These quarterbacks are so so good at being able to feel where the rush is and being able to feel okay I need to step up here.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay I need to navigate the pocket this way.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: If we're turning the rush if we're turning our rush at nine yards instead of eight that's going to be the difference between hey that was a good rush and oh hey that was a sack.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and good rushes are good.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah thumbs up you you you beat the guy he got his hands but quarterback stepped up and completed the pass.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that little difference of how I how quickly can I get from hands to this position to reducing my blocking surface and then finishing tight back into the tackle rather than allowing space between me and the tackle that's going to be the difference between like I said between a good rush and and a sack and it also doesn't give him an opportunity to recover.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't give the opportun the tackle an opportunity to recover.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I make my move you know if I'm far away from you and I make my move and I try to turn up here even though I got your hands initially you'll you'll recycle your hands and then just push me back.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Ride you off so so that's why that finish at the top is so important when you're finesse rushing.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little different when you're uh when you're power rushing so we've we've taken off we've met you on the track now I'm power rushing now I want to be violent with you and ideally in an ideal world I've if I'm working a long arm for example like I'm working right here I've thrown you upfield I've thrown you upfield I've thrown you upfield now I want to plant off this off my outside leg and I want to be violent with my snatching you down then violent with my arm over the top to finish.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: When you said this the the concept of uh violent like viol I think that's the people think people forget is when you are grabbing a hold of them you have to pull a 360 person pound off their center which they're there.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you are put them in this which that's what's I think is that is that what what I am I wrong by saying that's kind of what you that was your thing right the long arm rush.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So getting them turning them off center and then being able to yank and use your opposite arm to almost throw your body over like you are pulling them down.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah or pulling them across I get sometimes guys will get away with not using that that violent disengage you know guys will if you just truly kick a guy's ass like you can really just like kind of throw them by throw them by throw them by and come across but it there's more often than not I mean these offensive tackles are so good there's gonna have to be some form of violent disengage whether I'm you know to the inside it's you know bam or them to the outside it's bam but again we want to stay tight we want to stay connect as connected as possible while still while still disengaging from you.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: When I see uh so much defensive line work and it's too armed focus I always try to wrap my head around like offensive linemen they're drafted because they have long arms yes like that is an indicator they're already looking for whereas when you have that one arm long arm you're you're almost creating a longer arm which is longer than theirs because you get to turn and you get to be more locked out.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's easier to drive someone with one arm versus versus two.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Much easier and that's there's old saying we say one arm is longer than two.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you just you just showed it right there because when you bury yourself in to an offensive lineman with two hands like it's it's your arm length versus his arm length.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's who's got longer arms and that's that's the stuff mom and dad gave you you know like that that that's that's like may the best man win.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're able to you know attack initially but then create that separation now it's like you got you know my arm length plus my the length of my chest plate.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and so that that makes a huge difference.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why when I like to you know both as a player and as a coach I like to teach and I like and I like to apply the long arm rather than a straight bull rush power rush because the bull rush you kind of just it's kind of just two Rams button heads and and it's like unless you're just just an absolute like mammoth dog and this guy's just not very good it's gonna be it's it's gonna be a it's a toss up.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you're if you're really able to you know create that that separation to the one then you're giving yourself a really good chance to to put that lineman skates and put him in the quarterback's lap.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now as a a coach so you learn yourself you learn you look you you're probably learning your peers because you're all learning together at the same time I guess but now as a coach how is that how is that different?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's almost like you're still learning but now you're you're teaching and you're trying to teach someone that how it made sense to you or how it worked for you but that might not be how it works for them.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like how how has that transition been now into coaching?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and that's and that's one of the beauties of coaching is that you as much as you're teaching you are learning as well you're learning that okay like the a move or you know a technique that works for some guys probably is not gonna might not work for everybody.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: It might work for this one specific guy but what about the other four guys at the position?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like how is this gonna how's this going to translate for them?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's been something that's been really fun about being a coach is that okay there's especially on the line of scrimmage there's so many different body types doing it.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: You got your 280 pound enforcer guys that are rugged and want to be you know rough and tumble then you got your 235 pound guys that just want to you know burn the edge or be finesse and it's like okay how can I utilize how can I you know divide how can I work you know drills to maximize what they do best but also be applicable to everyone and so it's it's fun using that creative side of your brain to to come up with with different ways and different techniques that are that that that that can be underlying core principles for guys that that that everyone can use even if you know they can't even if these guys can't use every single thing that you know that that applies to one guy.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's been really fun.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's been that's been fun to to learn how to approach the the teaching standpoint from that way when you're teaching someone from a football standpoint I think it's a lot of football players like to transition into coaching.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost there's this space specifically in strength and conditioning where it's like the way you want to do it isn't the way everyone else and also how I learn is might not be how you learn how I say something how so how a coach talks to me that might not be how I can talk to this player because they're just going to shut me off they're gonna turn there they don't care about what I'm gonna say now.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a puzzle the more we've talked about it with like football like you're watching game tape on that tackle how they do things their tendencies their scheme all those things but now you're kind of watching not only that same tape because you're having to break it down as a coach but you're watching the tape of the player yeah and like how they respond to those things how has that transition been almost like because you have to put yourself I would imagine in some capacity in their in their footsteps.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean what were they thinking?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like why did they do that?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like so that you can help them more.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well you said it right there like you got guys that learn differently like just the way like I would might teach something differently than another coach like there are players that learn differently than the next player.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's a guy that learns better when he has a printout of a piece of paper and can write on it and and learn that way.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's a guy there's guys that need to see me draw it on the whiteboard.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay this is why we're doing this this is why you need to take the B gap on this play.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: There are other guys that learn best walking through physically doing it themselves.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's as a coach that's our job is to find out the best way for these guys to learn because that's going to allow you to teach the best is okay okay I know he likes to learn through the whiteboard.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do it I'm gonna you know explain it on the whiteboard then I know this guy likes it likes to learn on you know out on the grass walking through we're gonna walk through it until this guy can't get it wrong.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then also you mentioned the human side of it I can't you you some guys can take the the hard coaching they can take you know being yelled at and screamed at some like it some use it as fuel and use it as fire.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some go in the tank when you do that some need to be loved up and and I think not only knowing how these guys learn from a football standpoint but learn how learning how they received coaching from a human standpoint is is paramount.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to you have to identify those qualities and those traits in your players to allow you to be the best teacher possible for them.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: So ideal world in a long arm you you're just gonna I got control of you and I'm I'm just gonna run run and throw you by the quarterback and I'm not really gonna have to you know do so much to disengage but in the realistic world we're gonna have to do a lot to disengage.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I've landed my long arm throwing I'm throwing I'm throwing he sets his weight down I feel him set his weight down now I got to really snatch and rotate and that's to the outside or snatch or plant off my outside leg and snatch and rotate and come back to the inside.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why having that that leverage point that initial leverage point is going to be so key because that's going to allow you to really feel okay I've run him by the quarterback or now oh should it he's still he's still up here now I got to really snatch and rotate and disengage what what is the importance of aiming for the the inside arm if you're trying to get around the edge why is there you would not entertain going after this outside arm uh with that long arm?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like anything in in pass rushing like there are guys that can do it and that have won with that and I I I if you can do that and you can win with that then absolutely go for it.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've always found it to be a better leverage point to attack the inside peck than the outside peck for a couple of reasons.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: One, if you're s if you're a little more square and I'm trying to push you this way, push you this way, I'm taking care of this outside part of you but this inside part of you is still is is still in control of the down.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things we say in pass rushing and going against an offensive lineman is your outside hand is the knife hand, your inside hand's the gun hand.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Knife hand will hurt you but the gun hand that's the one you really don't want to mess with.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the inside hand your inside leg that's the area that we got to take care of.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: When you're rushing the outside part in your long arm then you're not taking care of the gun hand.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: You got the knife hand yeah the gun hand's still more than likely just gonna dim you around the edge.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you're attacking that inside peck, bam I got a better control of you I got a better grip where you can't even get my right hand on you.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I want to try to grip that outside like chest plate like you see how unnatural you know like if I here I got a good grip on you.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: You could post that on and now you can't you're not able to grab me with that inside hand and I've got that inside hand and inside that not that that gun hand taken care of now I'm in control of the down.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you win inside hand positioning and pass rushing you're gonna win more often than not that's why that's one of the things I'm not I mean I'm bullish on but I mean because again guys can get things done whether it's via the neck outside I just believe it's more efficient to go through the inside so obviously ideal you're going into that down and that situation with the plan of going inside arm.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah how does that work now adjusting so let's say plays going on obviously and you aim and you I don't want to say maybe you miss or maybe I I see because I know you I'm also watching tape on you.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also going he's going for my gun hand he's going for that inside so when he's coming at me I'm looking at that what obviously what do you do now when that arm extends out and I I knock it away or you know however I deal with that as an offensive lineman.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well that's where you got to you got to one for that for those particular downs where it happens in in within the down like I'm going for this and oh you knock my hand down now I just got to stay I got to keep my feet active stay and find and get up get get awareness for the quarterback and then work to keep him you know work to keep him contained and then work to adjust off of that.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now within the game you start getting that a lot more hand knocked down and more hand knocked down you can throw a fake long arm oh I'm faking now you go to chop it down now I can work my hands and adjust off of that.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And there are offensive linemen that have become very proficient with their hand use as well.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we hit we have to become more proficient with ours on the edge and the inside as well because you know the offensive linemen aren't just going to sit there and let you just stab them all day but when they do that that takes them out of their natural flow of things as well they're not they're not when they're practicing their their past sets they're practicing again like we talked about being in this nice strong stable position they're practicing being right here.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah when they start doing this that takes out the marriage between their hands and their feet and then they become susceptible to other stuff.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: How much goes into watching their tendencies to block like if I know I have a better chance for a long arm versus that that that guy's not going to allow that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not even I'm I'm gonna set that move up all game or I'm gonna like that fake or whatever all game I'm playing this chess match with them.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like checkers it's like he knows what I want to do and I know what he wants to do.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: No it's it's definitely it is like a chess match.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you you watch some of these elite offensive tackles going against some of these elite pass rushers and it's really it's it's beautiful football because beautiful you see it you see it how how it progresses and manifests throughout the game but the one thing that what you can always fall back on is your training and your fundamentals and the foundation that we we talked about earlier with your takeoff with your track with what you're doing when you're encountering an offensive lineman at certain points within that track and then obviously how you finish because that finish is the most important part.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you as a coach how do you build those relationships like what how what are you when you get him a new uh football player in or the draft or a free agent how are you building that trust because they have to trust you to know that you're trying to help even though you're on the same team there is a hesitancy like why is this guy trying to change what I'm doing?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Why like what does he see?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like how do you build that relationship with those players?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well I think you have to be honest with them first.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Honesty is you know at any relationship whether it's you know coach to player player to coach your husband to wife like any relationship is built on honesty and and truth.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so you know being able to operate in in those spaces is gonna you know give you give you a shot to have a relationship.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: But then just having open dialogue as a from player to coach I think has been been something that I've really seen to be productive in and and you know some of the guys I've been fortunate to work with both at you know when I was a player and as a coach like the best relationships and the best you know functioning position rooms I've seen have been ones that have been open where there's open communication and hey the coach asking hey why why are you doing this on this play?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh because I saw this and the coach you know receiving that information oh okay well here's why we need you to do it this way and as long as there's as if if if things are open, if things are honest, if things are truthful and if thing and if you're and and when you are as a coach if you're you know critiquing the play and not the player that's how growth happens and that's how trust is built and that's how productivity occurs.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So being at the Redskins as a player for 11 years and then going into coaching at least that first year you were coaching people that you were just yeah a lot of teammates just playing with right um and I know me and myself in the military it was like one day you put on your buddies you're all going out drinking having fun and the next day you put on rank and you're like ah I can't really do that anymore.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm responsible for you.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: How what challenges did that did that change and and were you ready for that?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean I think initially there was that those nerves like okay like I was this pass rushing along this guy and running TE games with this guy you know two years ago and now I'm his coach.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a little bit of a little bit of that you know initially but I think one Of the things that the guys realized from me was that because I had just been in their shoes, that I had just been in the trenches with them battling, you know, and playing games with them, that I wanted what's best for them.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: That that, you know, what I was telling them wasn't coach speak.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was, hey, I'm telling you guys this because it's best for our defense and it's best for you as a player.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's going to allow you to be more productive.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not because, you know, I'm the coach and you're the player and you got to do what I say.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's because I'm I was I was your teammate and I'm still your ally and I want what's best for you.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: I obviously didn't have the pleasure of knowing you while you were playing.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but now as a coach hearing it, it seems like this is a very passionate thing.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're you're very passionate about coaching through all the hands-on sessions.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you get a similar fulfillment feeling of seeing other people accomplish their dreams and goals and being a part of that journey?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: No doubt.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you see a guy, you know, get a sack on Sunday, when you see a guy dominate a double team, when you see a guy, you know, put somebody to the ground of a power rush and and just and you think of the work you put in with that guy, it really it's a great feeling.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and look, nothing beats the feeling of playing yourself.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and but I know, but I knew that, and I know that get knew that getting into coaching, but you know, watching, watching guys execute the techniques that you've been preaching and that you you and your staff have been preaching uh to the guys, and watching them have success with it is a great feeling.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it's you you're happy for them and you're happy for everybody.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: When we were in there talking, you're eating your food, and we were just talking between, and we were talking about the day to day, like how different it is or whatnot.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as a player, you were like, Man, we were done at five, and you had to come in a little bit later.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: But now, as a coach, you're there way earlier and you're staying way later.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Were you ready for that for that shift?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, this is oh, this is what the coaches all talked about.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is what they said when we're here all the time.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like now you are that.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's definitely you you know it getting into it.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like you can't complain, you can't say, Oh, this is way longer than I expected.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's like I remember being a player and being like, damn, they're still here.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are they doing?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: But no, it's that's uh what I've realized though is like you need those hours, like because most of your day, you're you're at least on like Wednesday through Friday, you're you're putting in time a lot of you know the main bulk of your day with the players.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like those other hours, you got to prep for those hours with the with the players.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like I said, you know it get in getting into it.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I won't I will say, you know, my first you know, couple days, couple weeks experiencing it now back in 22, it was like it's like wow, this is real.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's dark when I go in, it's dark when I leave.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: But um, at the same time, it's like you know it getting into it, and you learn to love the grind because it's as a coach, because it's when you when you feel a game plan come together and you and you feel confident in it, and then you watch you watch the progression of it slowly throughout the week and build up into where the guys are you know flying and executing well, it it it's a it's a damn good feeling.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a similar mindset like when you're training, like the extra time, like not practice, it's like what are you doing to take care of your body?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like the recovery stuff, the sleeping, the yoga, whatever, whatever it is that you're doing, where now as a coach, obviously you need to take care of your body, you need to take care of your, you know, your your health, but like that extra time you're putting in, that is the the extra stuff now.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like the extra stuff is just shifted, but you still have to do it to have that edge.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have to put in that time.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's always work to be done.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the thing.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you're if if you ever have downtime at the office, something something's off.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: So whether that's working ahead for the next opponent, whether that's you know, reviewing, reviewing how how a call might look, or reviewing a pass rush plan for us for a specific offensive tackle, um, there's always work to be done.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's that's one of the beauties.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, we we put in long hours, but there's always you're working.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's you're not you're not bored.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's there's always work to be done.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Was there anything when you got into coaching that you weren't expecting, or maybe it kind of caught you off guard, or you're like, I didn't realize this was going to be as big of an issue or as difficult as it was?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um there was there's not one specific thing.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, you know, the one the one thing that you don't you you you don't really account for or appreciate as a player that is such a huge part as a coach is the planning and the like you just think it's all like football.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, like we just as a player, you just show up at practice and we run these plays.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, like these we're running these specific plays today to get you ready for Sunday.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like these are the most important plays.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just any plays, they are specific plays, and you kind of know that as a player, but like getting the cards drawn up for for practice, getting, you know, from making sure that every minute is structured of how we're gonna run individual and how how much time do we have for this drill, how much time do we have for that drill?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something you appreciate so much as a player, but then as a coach, it's like it's everything.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's how how efficient can we be with these, with this, um, with these guys' time, because we don't want to waste their time and we want them to you know maximize what they can give us.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you a second to think about this answer because I'm gonna ask it in twofold.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: As a player and as a coach, are there is there anything that kind of in hindsight you wish you would have done, or maybe you would have not wish you would have done like something different, but like, man, I actually wish I would have put more time into that because I saw how beneficial it was.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to ask it as a player and as a coach because you've been successful in in both.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: So as a player, is there something like hindsight now?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not I wish I would have done it differently, but like, ah, that that was really good for me.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I'd done it earlier in my career.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, so some of like I as a line of scrimmage player, as someone who played predominantly on the line of scrimmage, I was always so concerned with my individual matchup.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: Who who am I going against?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: More so than the what.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like what what's the scheme?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: What are they trying to do?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: What like where are they trying to attack?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: I wish as a play, as a player, I feel like I could have been better at understanding schematically what they were, what, what the um, what the opponent was trying to do.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now I always tried to you know really zero in on the techniques of the guy that I was going against, and I felt like I had that down pretty well, but I I I should I wish I would have.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and I had coaches that were that were good at explaining stuff, but I was always so focused on you know, on who rather than the what.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I should and and I feel like you know, I catch myself now as a coach.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh man, if I would have you know approached it this way as a as a player, man, maybe you know, yeah, what could I have done?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's definitely something I think about.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, um, the stuff you took me through on the floor, not only am I going to steal that with the guys that are in town this offseason, um, but I wish you continued success as a coach.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Truly grateful that we connected last off season?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Last offseason.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh you had a lot of success.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: You say you feel really good.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's positive.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also, man, thank you for coming down here.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your time.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for willingness to share.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um great story, great coaching.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, were you a great player?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Great, I don't care.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the coaching is what I care about.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love to see it, I love to hear it.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: When you hear someone that understands words, use them from like the different angle.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you hear an athlete that they did it and now they can like turn the perspective, I just think it's special, man.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to thank you for coming and and being so open to sharing.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you having me.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just stop rolling.