Latest / Everyday Ancestral with James Barry / Hollywood Health, Dirty Keto, and Food Lies: Vinnie Tortorich on Myths, Missteps, and Taking Back Control

Transcript

Hollywood Health, Dirty Keto, and Food Lies: Vinnie Tortorich on Myths, Missteps, and Taking Back Control · Everyday Ancestral with James Barry

• 0:00
  Welcome back to the Everyday Ancestral Podcast.
• 0:05
  So excited and honored for our next guest, Vinny Tortuch, his documentary, he's done
• 0:13
  some amazing documentaries.
• 0:16
  Some you probably have heard of his newest one is Dirty Keto but you may have heard of fat
• 0:20
  a documentary.
• 0:21
  He also did a sequel to that documentary.
• 0:24
  He did one where he basically revealed the fake meat industry and called them out on
• 0:30
  what they're doing, it's called Beyond Impossible.
• 0:34
  He's also an OG celebrity fitness trainer.
• 0:38
  He has a very popular long-standing podcast, fitness confidential.
• 0:44
  I met Vinny at an event in 2024, Momentum in the Mountains, immediately loved him.
• 0:51
  He's just one of those people that calls it as it is, he doesn't hold back.
• 0:56
  He has been in the health business for a very long time.
• 1:00
  I got to say we talked about a lot of things and I got one of the best compliments you
• 1:06
  could get as a new podcaster from someone who's been doing it for so long.
• 1:10
  I'm just mostly excited to share everything Vinny with you.
• 1:14
  Someone who has believed in me and supported pluck and I welcome any visits I ever have
• 1:21
  with him.
• 1:22
  So, looking forward to your take on this, here's Vinny.
• 1:27
  I have to say I feel very honored to have you on my podcast, considering you're like the
• 1:33
  OG of podcasts.
• 1:35
  Well, I don't know if I can hold up to that.
• 1:39
  That's way too much pressure, James.
• 1:42
  Listen, I love doing podcasts and sometimes people will say to me, hey, I've never done
• 1:48
  any podcasts.
• 1:49
  You're my first one.
• 1:50
  You sure?
• 1:51
  It's like, yeah.
• 1:52
  Yeah.
• 1:53
  I started with number one.
• 1:54
  How long ago did you start?
• 1:57
  I think we're in year number 12 for podcasting, but you got into fitness world, what, 30 years
• 2:04
  ago?
• 2:05
  Well, if you go way back, I walked into a gym when I was like eight or nine years old.
• 2:11
  When gyms didn't exist, there was a private gym that the soul of the towering guy had in
• 2:15
  my hometown.
• 2:17
  At a time I was 15 or 16, a kid convinced an older man's like, hey, let's move your equipment
• 2:23
  somewhere else.
• 2:24
  And you can charge membership.
• 2:25
  I mean, I didn't understand business or anything, but he was like, yeah, that's not a
• 2:29
  bad idea.
• 2:30
  Because other parents started going, his name was Joe's like, Joe, can you do with my
• 2:34
  kit, with your door with Vinny?
• 2:37
  So he found the place and rented it.
• 2:39
  I was his only employee and he paid me exactly zero.
• 2:43
  That's not true.
• 2:44
  He paid me with a key to the building, which means I can go in even after hours.
• 2:49
  So I worked for free.
• 2:51
  And I was probably 15 at the time teaching people twice and three times my age, how to lift
• 2:58
  weights.
• 2:59
  That was the beginning of my career.
• 3:02
  What got you into the gym, was it bodybuilding, Arnold Schwarzenegger?
• 3:07
  What inspires you?
• 3:08
  I was getting beat up a lot when I was a kid.
• 3:11
  I wanted to become a superhero.
• 3:13
  But I knew superheroes weren't real, you know, Spider-Man and Superman wasn't real.
• 3:20
  And one day I was watching, I wrote about this and sitting as confidential in my book.
• 3:24
  One day I was watching Why World of Sports on a Saturday.
• 3:29
  At the end of the show, it went right into the Jacqueline hour.
• 3:32
  Jacqueline had a television show and he was sitting on a chair backwards and explained to
• 3:37
  you, you know, he would go, okay, ladies, he was basically talking to women.
• 3:41
  We're going to do, you know, hip thrust and we're going to do jumping jacks and pushups
• 3:45
  and all this stuff.
• 3:47
  And I sat there and watched Jack and I was like, wait a minute.
• 3:52
  I know Superman isn't real, but this is a real human being.
• 3:56
  And all I could concentrate on James was that vein in his bicep.
• 4:01
  And I was like, wow, he is a superhero.
• 4:05
  I wanted to become him.
• 4:07
  So I saw him lifting a weight, you know, doing a shoulder press above his head.
• 4:13
  I thought to myself, if you push weight over your head, you will get a vein in your bicep.
• 4:20
  Yeah.
• 4:21
  That was the whole impetus to what I was trying to do.
• 4:24
  I was trying to look like this man.
• 4:27
  I didn't understand or you would have to do, you know, a bicep curl didn't occur to me.
• 4:32
  It's like he's pressing the weight above his head.
• 4:34
  Therefore, I will.
• 4:36
  When did you take it to a more serious level?
• 4:40
  Because you clearly trained as a fitness instructor.
• 4:45
  You got some anatomy.
• 4:47
  You learned how to work out.
• 4:48
  So when did that happen?
• 4:50
  Well, I always say everything I learned about proper technique and powerlifting technician
• 4:54
  and all that literally happened with Joe because the guy was a genius.
• 4:59
  But then when I got to school, I went to school on a football scholarship to Tulane University.
• 5:05
  And you had to declare a major.
• 5:08
  And most of the athletes were taking like BS kind of majors and, you know, communications
• 5:14
  or whatever.
• 5:15
  And I was like, wait a minute.
• 5:16
  I'm here.
• 5:17
  I might as well learn something.
• 5:19
  So I started taking a lot of biology and kinesiology courses and it was just a
• 5:25
  hodgepodge, of course, and the football team had, you know, all these counselors that,
• 5:30
  you know, in a counselor noticed that I was making the deans list.
• 5:34
  I made the deans list in my second semester in college.
• 5:38
  And they don't see this very often with football players, right?
• 5:42
  And he came to me and he goes, hey, you made the deans list.
• 5:45
  And I was like, thanks.
• 5:46
  I don't even know what that means.
• 5:49
  And he goes, no, it's a very good thing.
• 5:52
  He said, but we, meaning someone looked at this and they had a committee over it.
• 5:57
  We've noticed that you just took a hodgepodge of classes and they weren't easy classes and
• 6:02
  some of them weren't even freshman level classes.
• 6:05
  Who told you to take those?
• 6:06
  And I went, you guys weren't doing your job.
• 6:09
  So I just went off took any class.
• 6:10
  I wanted.
• 6:12
  And they said, well, do you want to be in pre-med?
• 6:15
  And I said, no, I don't want to be a doctor.
• 6:17
  That sounded too heady for me.
• 6:19
  And he goes, well, you took all pre-med courses and you made the deans list.
• 6:25
  What do you want to do?
• 6:26
  And I said, I don't know.
• 6:27
  I like teaching fitness.
• 6:29
  And they said, well, you can become a school teacher and be a PE teacher.
• 6:34
  But they warned me and said, you're way smarter than that.
• 6:37
  Which I thought, I looked at it as screw you, you know, both of my parents are teachers.
• 6:43
  And my mom's brothers are teaching, I come from a family of teachers.
• 6:46
  You're telling me, by becoming a teacher, I'm going to belittle myself, much less
• 6:50
  a PE teacher, which is something I thought to be an admirable thing to do.
• 6:57
  You're one of the early fitness trainer adopted.
• 7:02
  I mean, you're potentially helped to build the industry.
• 7:04
  Yeah, well, when I became a personal trainer, the career didn't exist.
• 7:09
  I was doing it in New Orleans.
• 7:11
  Jake was out in Hollywood.
• 7:14
  There was a guy named Mackie Showstone who had a few personal clients and some professional
• 7:18
  athletes.
• 7:19
  A new Mackie very well, who also came out of Tulane, Richard Simmons, who was from New Orleans.
• 7:26
  Believe it or not, all the fitness guys seemed to have come out of New Orleans, right?
• 7:30
  And we all, you know, vaguely, we knew each other.
• 7:34
  And we were all doing this stuff.
• 7:37
  And magazines started writing, like, shape magazine did a thing on me.
• 7:41
  I can expose it back in the early mid 80s, right?
• 7:44
  And they were like, this new thing of personal trainers, the job didn't exist.
• 7:50
  People like Fred Han came along a little later, I think, instead of doing, you know, super
• 7:54
  slow and all that kind of stuff.
• 7:56
  And he's still out there, you know, and then everybody's mom decided, hey, I'm dropped
• 8:01
  my kids off at school, put on a pair of tights and I'll call myself a fitness trainer.
• 8:06
  So the business grew out of just whole cloth, if you want to look at it that way.
• 8:12
  I understand that, you know, you're all kind of learning, you're defining an industry
• 8:17
  at that time.
• 8:19
  But I know that you started to get kind of looked at it as like the angry fitness trainer.
• 8:23
  And so there was an aspect of the industry that you were really upset about.
• 8:28
  Can you talk about that?
• 8:29
  Yeah, that was a moniker that my wife put on me.
• 8:32
  So I came much later from New Orleans.
• 8:35
  I made it out to Hollywood and became one of the early celebrity fitness trainers.
• 8:39
  Again, now everyone, they just call themselves celebrity fitness trainers like, well, who
• 8:44
  have you trained?
• 8:45
  Do we know any of these people?
• 8:47
  But I was out there working with actors and actresses and all thing and my wife is an
• 8:52
  actress.
• 8:53
  I never worked with her.
• 8:55
  We just met, you know, we met at a Starbucks.
• 8:59
  But I was out there working in Hollywood and doing my job and just watching all of the
• 9:04
  stuff that was being sold to people that didn't work.
• 9:08
  Infomercials were a big thing.
• 9:11
  You know, just everything was, hey, drink some, drink some green tea and you'll lose weight,
• 9:16
  have some raspberry extract and you'll lose weight, cabbage soup diet.
• 9:21
  You know, all these different things were coming around and I would sit there and go, no,
• 9:24
  no, no, no, no.
• 9:26
  Just drink apple cider vinegar and lose weight, you know, everything is this quick weight
• 9:30
  loss thing and I would just get angry at people being lied to and that was the beginning
• 9:37
  of my thing was that I hate when the disservice is being done.
• 9:42
  I don't care if it's in fitness or anywhere else.
• 9:44
  I'm always the guy standing up going, wait a minute.
• 9:47
  I'm not an angry guy by nature.
• 9:49
  But you know, when we started the podcast, they said, well, you have to call it something
• 9:53
  and my wife goes, well, you're trying to write the wrongs, done people through fitness.
• 9:58
  Why don't you call yourself the angriest trainer?
• 10:01
  Call it the angriest trainer podcast and it wasn't like I got on there and started yelling
• 10:05
  at people.
• 10:06
  I'm not Jillian Michaels.
• 10:07
  I don't yell at people for being fat.
• 10:10
  But that moniker kind of stuck and then when the show got big, I started going on some
• 10:15
  national television shows and they started going, you call yourself the angriest trainer.
• 10:20
  I don't seem so angry and I'm like, okay, we've wasted half of my interview explaining
• 10:26
  that I'm not angry.
• 10:27
  So we dropped it and just started calling it the fitness confidential podcast.
• 10:32
  You know, I've been in the food industry now for 20 years.
• 10:36
  You've done this for 40 attention plus years.
• 10:40
  From where you began to where you are now, what's the biggest consistency in terms of
• 10:44
  what you've seen that works?
• 10:47
  Buy it over exercise.
• 10:50
  For a long time, the infomercial world was really big.
• 10:53
  I don't think people realized how big that was.
• 10:55
  We didn't have an internet to go to.
• 10:58
  So got the rancor and all these companies would sell products on television.
• 11:03
  They were lying to you saying, hey, if you use our ab rocket or our butt buster or whatever
• 11:09
  the product was called, you know, the thigh master by Suzanne Summers, oh, just do this
• 11:14
  one thing.
• 11:15
  This one exercising.
• 11:16
  You can look like this same as actress, right?
• 11:19
  None of it worked.
• 11:20
  So they used to try to explain it to us that exercise was how you lost weight.
• 11:25
  And I was out there yelling as loudly as I had a radio show at the time going, exercise
• 11:30
  is a poor way to lose weight.
• 11:31
  You can't outrun a diet.
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  You can't outlift a fork.
• 11:35
  You can't.
• 11:36
  It just does not work.
• 11:37
  So if it's not exercise, it will go, well, Vinnie, what is it?
• 11:40
  It's like it's diet.
• 11:42
  And they were going, okay, eat less.
• 11:43
  And it's like, well, that's part of it, but not really because if you're eating less
• 11:48
  of the wrong thing, you're going to still get fat.
• 11:50
  If you're just eating grains, I mean, my great grandmother, who barely spoke English, you
• 11:56
  know, she came here when she was 13 and lived to be a hundred from Italy.
• 12:01
  She knew that if you ate pasta and bread, you got fat.
• 12:05
  And she would say as much to us in Italian, you know, you're getting a pizza.
• 12:09
  They have words for it.
• 12:10
  That's not very kind in Italian.
• 12:13
  They were basically called your lard ass for eating brains.
• 12:18
  How did they know this?
• 12:19
  How did every peasant in this country have this information yet the American Heart Association
• 12:25
  doesn't?
• 12:27
  It makes zero sense.
• 12:29
  So I started smelling a rat early, even back when I was learning, you know, getting my
• 12:34
  degree in exercise physiology and my backup degree in nutrition.
• 12:37
  From a medical school, no less, I knew the truth.
• 12:42
  No one else was talking about it.
• 12:44
  How has it changed in terms of your diet?
• 12:47
  Has it changed?
• 12:49
  The only thing that's changed for me was, and I hate myself for doing this, but I kept
• 12:54
  everything a secret when you're training celebrities and you're the guy that the studios
• 12:58
  go to, I'm not going to let my secrets out.
• 13:02
  They called me the quick weight loss guy in Hollywood.
• 13:05
  Now, let's say you were an actress, right?
• 13:08
  And you did a movie.
• 13:10
  The way actresses have babies is they'll go, okay, I just finished a movie with James
• 13:15
  Cameron.
• 13:16
  It won't be out for at least a year.
• 13:19
  I'm going to now go have a baby.
• 13:22
  They plan their pregnancies in between big movies.
• 13:25
  Part of their contract is when the movie comes out, they have to be on the red carpet.
• 13:29
  Now they have baby weight.
• 13:31
  People think all of my business was, you know, putting like muscle on people like Hugh
• 13:35
  Jackman.
• 13:36
  No, my biggest thing was the quick weight loss guy get 30, 40 pounds off of an actress
• 13:41
  that just had a baby that now had to go promote a movie and look like she did in the movie.
• 13:46
  So I wasn't going to give those secrets away when I was doing that.
• 13:50
  The thing that changed, I guess, is the question here is the internet came along and I said,
• 13:58
  you know what, let me just start giving this information off for free and see what happens.
• 14:02
  I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but that's the answer.
• 14:06
  When you share them, so what is the diet that you found has been consistent and consistently
• 14:12
  works and that you still recommend to this day?
• 14:16
  You know, you had your first documentary, Fat, you had your follow up, Fat, a documentary
• 14:21
  two, Beyond Impossible, touching based on the corruption of fake meat.
• 14:27
  And then your newest one is Dirty Keto.
• 14:30
  What you want to do is keep insulin at bay.
• 14:34
  As you can control insulin, you can control weight gain.
• 14:37
  By keeping insulin at bay, all you have to do is cut out carbohydrates.
• 14:41
  So we have three macronutrients, Fat, Protein and carbohydrates.
• 14:46
  We only need enough sugar in our body to maintain homeostasis.
• 14:52
  And you can actually get that without ever eating a carbohydrate period.
• 14:56
  Now, do I promote eating zero carbs?
• 14:59
  No, I believe in eating vegetables, getting some phytonutrients from cruciferous vegetables
• 15:05
  and what have you.
• 15:07
  So any carbohydrate you take in should have a nutritional value to it, some vitamins in
• 15:13
  it, if you will, some minerals.
• 15:16
  But everything else should be protein and fat, mainly animal protein and animal fat.
• 15:23
  Yes, saturated fats.
• 15:26
  And with that, staying away from processed foods.
• 15:29
  So I know I didn't just name a diet.
• 15:31
  That's not the Mediterranean diet.
• 15:33
  That's not what Weight Watchers would tell you to do, it's not the Cambridge diet.
• 15:38
  It's how we were meant to eat.
• 15:41
  We were meant to eat red meat, fish, poultry, pork.
• 15:47
  These are all animal proteins.
• 15:48
  We were meant to eat eggs.
• 15:51
  We were meant to eat dairy, byproduct of animal, animal protein.
• 15:56
  These are all animal proteins.
• 15:58
  Eating that, you're going to get all the fat you need.
• 16:01
  You're going to get all of the protein you need.
• 16:03
  And by taking in enough protein, you will also have something that happens, fancy word,
• 16:08
  sorry, but it's called gluconeogenesis when the proteins in your body are broken down
• 16:13
  into a sugar and your body can maintain homeostasis.
• 16:17
  So we don't need all three macronutrients, really, to live, you only need two.
• 16:22
  You only need fat and protein.
• 16:24
  Protein is a building block of every cell in your body.
• 16:27
  What is the energy source that gets broken down into a butylrate, which becomes known
• 16:31
  as a ketone, which is where you hear the word keto.
• 16:35
  So that's it.
• 16:36
  You've seen trends, you've seen diets changed, sometimes need the same diet, but they changed
• 16:43
  names.
• 16:44
  But now we're seeing things like carnivore and don't eat any vegetables.
• 16:49
  How do you navigate these kind of modern trends?
• 16:53
  Maybe you just kind of scoff at them and said, no, no, I already know it works or does
• 16:58
  it bring up a curiosity like, how do you navigate?
• 17:02
  I don't.
• 17:03
  But here's where I tell people like, when you're talking about low carb diets, the first
• 17:07
  one that came around, my friend Lauren Cardain brought forth the ancestral style diet, paleo.
• 17:15
  So paleo came around, right?
• 17:17
  And paleo was great, but then they bastardized it.
• 17:21
  Whatever you give people a diet, now it's time to bastardize.
• 17:24
  So is paleo good?
• 17:26
  Absolutely.
• 17:28
  So what's the problem with paleo?
• 17:30
  Well, people will look around and go, hmm, so I can eat anything that was around during
• 17:34
  the paleolithic era.
• 17:36
  Yes, you can.
• 17:38
  Okay.
• 17:39
  You probably have honey bees.
• 17:41
  Therefore I can eat honey, bring on the honey.
• 17:44
  I'm giving a stupid example of what happens, but it's not really that stupid is what
• 17:50
  people do.
• 17:51
  Whenever you give humans an inch, we take 10 miles, is the paleo diet good?
• 17:57
  Yes.
• 17:58
  But if you stray off and start eating honey, good luck.
• 18:02
  So that's the bastardization of a diet.
• 18:04
  So you know, people like myself and my buddy Gary Talbs and Nina came around right after
• 18:09
  me and we're all close friends, right?
• 18:11
  And we all started saying, hey, eat low carb.
• 18:14
  My thing is I call it NSNG, you know, no sugars, no grains, right?
• 18:19
  People will go, what's the NSNG diet and I go, blah, blah, blah, no diet.
• 18:25
  It's a lifestyle.
• 18:26
  I don't tell you a diet, it's a lifestyle.
• 18:29
  You cut out sugars, you cut out grains, eat everything else, don't eat anything from
• 18:33
  a package, stay away from seed oils, you'll be fine.
• 18:36
  So that's what I tell people to do and they'll say, well, how does that compare to corn
• 18:41
  of or diet and how do you feel about a corn of or diet?
• 18:45
  I feel great about a corn of or diet.
• 18:47
  The problem with corn of or is they've now bastardized that or even worse, corn of
• 18:56
  or is the opposite of veganism.
• 18:59
  Veganism is the absence of any kind of animal protein, corn of or is only animal protein.
• 19:06
  So you'll go, wait a minute, then how can you be in between those two?
• 19:09
  You got to pick one or the other.
• 19:10
  No, I don't.
• 19:11
  You know, I think veganism would be great if you added some meat into it.
• 19:15
  If you ate a pure vegan diet, the carnivores are now saying, if you eat broccoli, broccoli
• 19:22
  is conspiring to kill you.
• 19:24
  You've become a zealot.
• 19:25
  You know, they go, well, Vinny, do you believe in the carnivore diet?
• 19:28
  Yeah.
• 19:29
  On page Sean Baker and I are good friends.
• 19:31
  He's one of the forefathers.
• 19:32
  He brought that forth.
• 19:34
  I met Sean within that first six months of him doing carnivore before anyone knew his
• 19:38
  name.
• 19:39
  Does it work?
• 19:40
  Yes.
• 19:41
  Ken Barry.
• 19:42
  I like Ken Barry too.
• 19:43
  There's a job out there saying eat meat, eat the way we were meant to eat.
• 19:47
  It'll work.
• 19:49
  But then everyone else takes it to a new level, right?
• 19:52
  And they start making up stuff.
• 19:54
  And you see all these doctors coming like a gun tree and all these guys coming out saying,
• 19:59
  oh, lectins are going to kill you by noon tomorrow or their chemicals in broccoli.
• 20:05
  Really, you want me to go place that?
• 20:07
  Is that what you want me to do?
• 20:08
  I can't.
• 20:09
  I can't lie to people that way.
• 20:11
  broccoli is not conspiring to kill you.
• 20:13
  I'm sorry.
• 20:14
  You know, people go, you know, maybe you talk a little too much.
• 20:17
  No, I'm going to always be on the side of the person who's trying to do the right thing.
• 20:22
  James, you've been on my show.
• 20:24
  I said right at the beginning, your good intentions have been stolen.
• 20:28
  I'm going to help you get them back.
• 20:30
  You're listening to my whole game plan right there.
• 20:33
  So human nature we tend to take one one thing if we can get our sugar in, but it's alcohol
• 20:38
  sugars or something will go to 100 with that, right?
• 20:41
  So how do you support not only your clients, but yourself when your humanity comes up?
• 20:49
  Because you must have moments where you eat off of your normal diet.
• 20:54
  Absolutely.
• 20:55
  I do.
• 20:56
  People are going to win and wear, right?
• 20:57
  And I call it putting life into living.
• 21:00
  I'm a self-professed sugar addict.
• 21:03
  I grew up on a farm in Louisiana.
• 21:04
  My parents and schoolteachers, but everyone else in my family were farmers, you know, that's
• 21:09
  what they did.
• 21:10
  And Sicily, they grew sugar cane.
• 21:12
  I grew up in a sugar cane feel every rabbit I ever hunted.
• 21:17
  I hunted in sugar cane fields.
• 21:20
  I still feel the cuts from the sugar cane blades.
• 21:23
  I keep pocket knives all over my desk because if you got this in your pocket, you can go
• 21:28
  break off a piece of sugar cane and shut it and eat it right there.
• 21:33
  I grew up doing that.
• 21:34
  The fact that I have teeth in my mouth is a miracle.
• 21:37
  Luckily, I had a good brushing and flossing routine.
• 21:41
  I cannot eat sugar because I'm like a heroin addict.
• 21:44
  If someone brings something over to the house and I eat it, if I can't drink an espresso
• 21:50
  right behind it, I will get into my car and go to the store and buy something.
• 21:54
  That's why I stay away from sugar, right?
• 21:57
  We keep pasta and everything out of the house.
• 21:59
  So when do you do it then?
• 22:01
  I have to go to the UK for a family wedding, my wife is British.
• 22:06
  I'm sure that when I'm in the UK, there's going to be some wedding cake or something I have
• 22:11
  to eat.
• 22:12
  That's when I do it.
• 22:13
  I have no shame about doing it.
• 22:15
  There's no shame whatsoever.
• 22:16
  It's like, I'm at the wedding.
• 22:18
  This is what we're doing right now.
• 22:20
  I'm not going to tell the bride and the groom of this young couple, oh, I'm sorry.
• 22:24
  I can't have any of your cake.
• 22:25
  It's going to be served to me.
• 22:26
  I'm going to enjoy it like everyone else.
• 22:28
  I'm not going to feel guilty.
• 22:30
  Right.
• 22:31
  What would you say though keeps you in alignment when you're not abroad, you know, not at that
• 22:36
  event.
• 22:37
  Sugar's not in front of you.
• 22:38
  People talk a lot about their why.
• 22:40
  Is that your driver to stay so disciplined or what is your driver?
• 22:46
  The driver changed.
• 22:48
  The first driver was when I got out of college football, I immediately went from 225.
• 22:54
  I was very muscleed up.
• 22:56
  I was aligned back.
• 22:57
  At 215 depending on what time of season, I ballooned up to around 270 in no time because
• 23:05
  I wasn't eating on the training table anymore.
• 23:07
  When you're on training table, you have eggs.
• 23:10
  You have bacon.
• 23:11
  You have red meat.
• 23:12
  You have as soon as you off of training table, the only thing I can afford was rice and
• 23:16
  tuna fish and pasta and ramen noodles.
• 23:21
  I was still in college.
• 23:22
  I was still trying to get a degree, but I wasn't on training table anymore.
• 23:26
  I was eating nothing but carbs and I ballooned up fast.
• 23:30
  My first driver, if you will, when I realized that I was getting obese back in like 1982-83
• 23:38
  was to lose the weight, stay away from carbie stuff, go back to what I knew.
• 23:45
  So that was the original driver and that remained my driver for a lot of years.
• 23:49
  Hell, you can't work in Hollywood as a fitness trainer and be fat.
• 23:54
  So my job dictated that I look a certain way.
• 23:58
  And in Hollywood, look, I get it.
• 24:00
  Some trainers, I see trainers in gyms now with guts and everything else.
• 24:04
  More power to you, but when the studios are hiring you, if you showed up with a gut, you're
• 24:09
  not getting hired.
• 24:10
  You can't keep yourself in shape and you want to train four of the actors that's going
• 24:14
  to be in a movie 300.
• 24:15
  No, we don't think so.
• 24:17
  You need to look like you want those actors to look.
• 24:20
  I had to always be ripped.
• 24:23
  So that was my driver for a lot of years.
• 24:26
  But then a different driver came along, a way more important driver.
• 24:31
  I got a mean case of leukemia back in 07.
• 24:35
  That's when I was talking to my doctor long before they were talking about this on the
• 24:39
  internet, the internet barely existed in 07.
• 24:42
  And my doctor said, you know, we're learning that cancer feeds on sugar and I went, oh,
• 24:48
  okay.
• 24:49
  Okay.
• 24:50
  And I'm picking up what you put down.
• 24:53
  They told me my cancer, James would be back within five years.
• 24:58
  My cancer just came back this year.
• 25:00
  I went 17 years, cancer free, before I had to go back on chemo.
• 25:05
  Can you imagine if I just kept eating sugars or anything else, I would have been probably
• 25:11
  been on chemo three times by now, chemo really messes you up every time.
• 25:16
  So you want to talk about a driver staying away from a chemical that's trying to kill cancer
• 25:22
  and it's also killing every cell in your body.
• 25:24
  It doesn't just kill cancer, by the way.
• 25:27
  The reason you're throwing up and you feel like shit when you're on chemo is because it's
• 25:31
  killing you too.
• 25:32
  See, you're currently in chemo, right?
• 25:35
  Or did you just finish?
• 25:36
  I'm out.
• 25:37
  Congratulations.
• 25:38
  Thanks, man.
• 25:39
  Good to hear that.
• 25:40
  So what are you doing for recovery?
• 25:41
  What did you do while you're in chemo to counteract the chemicals?
• 25:45
  I kept eating the way I'm eating now, plenty of red meat, plenty of eggs.
• 25:51
  I doubled down on it.
• 25:53
  My chemo this time, versus 17 years ago, it was the same exact drug in the same amount.
• 25:59
  I was barely sick at all.
• 26:02
  I upped the amount of coconut oil I was eating to right before I was shitting my pants.
• 26:08
  Sorry, audience, but I upped my medium chain for glycerides as much as I could.
• 26:14
  I was in high levels of ketosis the entire time I went through chemo to the point where
• 26:20
  my doctor and my cancer nurse, I would show up every day because I had to go in every
• 26:27
  day to get an infusion for three hours.
• 26:29
  And they would say to me, how did you feel yesterday after I was like, yeah, I went home
• 26:34
  and I got on my rowing machine for an hour and they were like, yeah, okay, that's funny.
• 26:37
  I went, no, I did.
• 26:38
  They were like, what are you talking about?
• 26:41
  I was like, I got on my rowing machine and I was like, you were able to go home and
• 26:45
  exercise.
• 26:46
  And I was like, yeah, not at the same level, but I was able to do it.
• 26:52
  Some days I would walk in and they would say, were you on that rowing machine?
• 26:55
  And I was like, no, I got on my spinner today or I pumped some iron.
• 27:00
  James, I was nowhere near the level I was at before I started chemo because it really
• 27:05
  wipes your blood out.
• 27:07
  It really messes with you, but I was able to exercise every day because I was keeping
• 27:12
  myself at a high level of eating right.
• 27:16
  And there was no life into living.
• 27:17
  There was no sugar whatsoever.
• 27:19
  There was no nothing.
• 27:20
  It was just straight on protein and fat.
• 27:24
  Does religion or mindset play into healing for you?
• 27:28
  No, unfortunately, not for me.
• 27:31
  I'm weirdly spiritual, but I don't follow any religion.
• 27:35
  My wife says I'm the most spiritual atheist she's ever met.
• 27:39
  I was very religious growing up.
• 27:42
  I went to private Catholic school and literally the nuns beat it out of me.
• 27:47
  I had a terrible experience in school, so I can't follow any religion.
• 27:52
  Mindset though, clearly plays into it out of that shop.
• 27:56
  I have this oddly positive attitude about everything.
• 28:01
  That's my religion.
• 28:03
  So man, this is going to sound like I'm making this part up and it's going to sound like
• 28:07
  bullshit, but I kept taking phone calls from people.
• 28:12
  I have the thing where people can sign up for phone calls and talk to me about their
• 28:16
  health.
• 28:17
  I kept that going the whole time because I felt like if I can help someone else, I couldn't
• 28:21
  possibly die.
• 28:23
  There's no higher being that's going to kill a guy who's trying to help other people.
• 28:27
  And I know that that sounds like BS, but that's what I was doing.
• 28:31
  No, it doesn't sound like BS.
• 28:33
  I mean, you've heard stories like that in Hollywood, you know, where I think it was Spencer
• 28:37
  Tracy died right after doing a movie and he was sick the whole time, but it was him working
• 28:43
  and being of service that kept him kind of focused and alive.
• 28:49
  I didn't know that story about him, but I love hearing that because that's kind of what
• 28:54
  I did, you know, just kind of intuitively.
• 28:56
  It's like, I have to pretend this is not happening.
• 29:00
  And you know, right before I went through my, my cancer again, my younger brother who
• 29:04
  had Crohn's disease his entire life, he had stage three colon cancer.
• 29:10
  So he went through a tougher chemo than me, you know, they had to do radiation and chemical
• 29:15
  chemo just to kill it off.
• 29:18
  And then after that, they had to go in and remove his colon.
• 29:22
  So he's on a bag for the rest of his life, you know, when it's colon bags.
• 29:27
  So he went through a much rougher time than I did and he kept showing up for work.
• 29:32
  He has a pretty important job that kept going, shouldn't you be home and he was like, no,
• 29:36
  I can't stay home.
• 29:37
  I have to do this.
• 29:38
  I have to be at work.
• 29:40
  And he told me that every day at around three o'clock, because he was going in for chemo
• 29:44
  and zapping almost every day.
• 29:46
  He said he was scamper off to the bathroom to throw up and then go right back to work
• 29:51
  and at three o'clock, he was so worn out, he would close his door in his office, turn
• 29:55
  the light out and put his head down on his desk and sleep like that for about a half
• 30:00
  an hour.
• 30:01
  But then he woke up and went right back to work.
• 30:04
  So wow, man, that apple, that apple also didn't fall far from the tree, you know, because
• 30:10
  he had to go to work every day in order to keep his sanity.
• 30:15
  You talk a lot for your living, you know, you're on podcasts, your documentaries, you're
• 30:19
  writing books, you're doing one on one sessions.
• 30:22
  I mean, you're constantly being of service and you're sharing a lot of your life while
• 30:27
  you do it.
• 30:28
  But yet when it came to cancer, you got a little quiet.
• 30:32
  You said, you know, gang, I need to go back, I need to go inward in almost in a sense
• 30:37
  it sounded like I don't want to give the cancer too much energy.
• 30:41
  I knew when I took the ball marrow biopsy this time around, I knew whether we're going
• 30:45
  to find already new.
• 30:47
  I was getting sick at 13,000 feet on a mountain.
• 30:50
  I'm able to run up to 16,000 feet.
• 30:53
  I've done glaciers higher than that and I was getting sick at 12 and 30.
• 30:56
  I knew something was wrong.
• 30:58
  So I went in, I knew I was sick and I guess I lied to my audience, but I always said that
• 31:06
  when I go back on chemo again, I would let everyone know how long I went, which is what
• 31:10
  I did, but I kept doing the podcast and acting as normal for about six weeks while I went
• 31:20
  through all of the chemo.
• 31:22
  The only people that knew was Anna Vochino, who does my podcast with her, and I think
• 31:26
  Gina Grad, and you also, these two women do the podcast with me.
• 31:30
  So they knew I had to tell them, I didn't tell my parents who are still alive.
• 31:35
  I didn't tell my brothers.
• 31:37
  But I went through the chemo again and at the end of chemo, I said, okay, guys, I'm going
• 31:42
  through cancer again.
• 31:44
  The reason being is I knew a lot of people were going to start calling and doing the well-wishing.
• 31:50
  And I really understand that, but I didn't have the energy to do my job and take the well-wishing
• 31:57
  phone calls.
• 31:58
  And if that makes me an asshole, it does, but I couldn't take that to the point where
• 32:04
  this friend of mine, this girl, who I used to ride bikes with, who was a great triathlete
• 32:10
  and a whole deal, she found out really late.
• 32:13
  She found out like three weeks or a month ago that I had gone through chemo again and
• 32:19
  leukemia.
• 32:20
  And she called me and she said, how are you doing?
• 32:23
  And I said, I'm doing fine.
• 32:24
  She goes, by the way, I have leukemia too.
• 32:27
  She goes to the first time I DNF'd in an Iron Man event.
• 32:31
  She goes, I got to the run and I couldn't finish.
• 32:33
  She took me to the hospital within three days in the hospital.
• 32:38
  I was in a coma.
• 32:39
  She had leukemia, different kinds of leukemia.
• 32:42
  She told me she was out of the hospital awaiting a bone marrow transplant.
• 32:46
  I found out two days ago that my friend died.
• 32:49
  You know, I'm just sitting there going, she didn't know I had cancer.
• 32:53
  I didn't know she had cancer.
• 32:54
  She's like me.
• 32:55
  She's just, she's an Italian, the stoic Italian grew up in Jersey.
• 33:00
  I loved her, I loved her like a sister.
• 33:04
  I loved this woman to death.
• 33:07
  And she never let on as she was going to die.
• 33:09
  And that's been messing with me for the last couple of days.
• 33:13
  And I wonder if I did the right thing by not telling my parents, apparently I did because
• 33:17
  I'm still alive.
• 33:18
  So maybe that's not the answer you're looking for, but yeah, I kept it a secret while I was
• 33:23
  going through the chemo.
• 33:25
  I think we all process things how we're going to process them.
• 33:29
  I guess I was wondering if there was a little bit more strategy around it, because some
• 33:34
  people will talk about how well I don't want to give the thing that I don't want energy.
• 33:40
  I want to only focus on the things I do want.
• 33:43
  Yeah, I think that's part of it.
• 33:46
  You know, something that bothers me, I don't know why it's a pet peeve.
• 33:50
  And this is their thing and I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
• 33:53
  I haven't seen Facebook now in probably four or five years, but I see it on Instagram
• 33:58
  because I post an Instagram.
• 34:00
  I'll see friends of mine, they'll be in the hospital in the hospital bed with the thumbs
• 34:04
  up.
• 34:05
  You know, and this kind of thing is like, when am I supposed to give you a, you know,
• 34:09
  a pity bump, a sympathy bump, what are you asking for?
• 34:11
  I'm not sure what you're doing by having the hospital gown on in the bed with the thumbs
• 34:18
  up.
• 34:19
  I don't know what that is.
• 34:21
  I don't want people to see me in that light.
• 34:24
  Italians, when you have a funeral, right, they lay the body out and everyone goes, oh,
• 34:28
  he looks so good.
• 34:29
  Really?
• 34:30
  He's fucking dead.
• 34:32
  He's not looking that good.
• 34:34
  He's dead.
• 34:35
  When I'm done, just burn me and spread my ashes.
• 34:38
  I don't want people to see that.
• 34:41
  I don't want them to see me dead.
• 34:43
  I don't want people to see me hurt and pain.
• 34:46
  You know, you bring something up that comes up a lot for me.
• 34:50
  You know, I'm 50.
• 34:51
  I know you're older than I am, but neither of us grew up with social media, with putting
• 34:57
  everything in our lives, you know, in front of other people, looking for sympathy from
• 35:02
  people online versus in our direct circles.
• 35:07
  How have you navigated that?
• 35:08
  Obviously, you do it for work, but what's your relationship to it?
• 35:12
  I just keep out of social media.
• 35:14
  I don't think, you know, my wife is a celebrity.
• 35:17
  I don't think they need to know everything about us.
• 35:20
  You know, we have a wonderful relationship.
• 35:23
  We finally got married after 17 years of being together.
• 35:27
  We put that out there online that we're getting married, which I think is a joyous thing.
• 35:32
  You know, it meant a lot to her and, you know, she wanted her friends to know.
• 35:37
  But I don't believe everything we do has should be online.
• 35:41
  I even see it with celebrities.
• 35:43
  This girl that Serena used to work with when there were models.
• 35:46
  I saw Paulina Harris-Cova, you know, she had some kind of surgery, hip surgery, and
• 35:51
  she's putting the scars and everything online.
• 35:53
  It's like, why?
• 35:55
  What are you doing, Paulina?
• 35:57
  You're considered probably the world's first supermodel, right?
• 36:00
  One of the most beautiful women on the planet.
• 36:03
  Why do we need to see that?
• 36:05
  What are you doing?
• 36:06
  What are you showing us?
• 36:07
  You know, I go shooting skeet, I'm a competitive skeet shooter.
• 36:12
  When we're practicing, I practice with the same guys all the time, right?
• 36:15
  And sometimes when you miss a couple of shots and you come off the pad, they'll put their
• 36:20
  thumb out to do the bump and I'll always go, no, no, no, no, no.
• 36:24
  No pity bump.
• 36:25
  I don't do pity bumps.
• 36:26
  And these are 75-year-old men, some of them.
• 36:29
  If I hit the shots and you want to bump it out, I'll bump it out.
• 36:32
  But I don't want the pity bump in life.
• 36:35
  And I'll look at that with the internet, everybody wants to know what I'm doing.
• 36:39
  They want to know that my wife is doing my sister loves very famous.
• 36:42
  I get asked about her.
• 36:43
  And my answer is always, I don't know, I haven't spoken to Christin in a while.
• 36:49
  It's not true, you know, we talk. You know, my wife talks to Europe weekly. They don't need to know
• 36:54
  what's going on in our lives. Sometimes it's got to be private, right? I mean, at some point,
• 36:59
  that's what I think, but the younger kids, I don't know if they believe that. I think everyone's
• 37:05
  trying to put as much as they can out there and they run out of stuff to put so they start going,
• 37:09
  all right, I'm going to put everything, show you when I put on my makeup. You know, that's my
• 37:16
  thought they're watches all the time. But you see, that's what they all do. You know, you and I
• 37:21
  met somewhere we met at an event. I immediately took a liking to you. It's like, oh, I like this guy,
• 37:27
  right? And it was like, oh, this is a cool guy, but we're a different generation. You're at the
• 37:32
  tail end of that generation. I'm at the other end. I'm considered a boomer, even though I'm so in
• 37:38
  the tail end of boomer, and you're not in boomer at all. You're way out of boomer. I don't know if you
• 37:44
  know this, but we have a lot of crossovers. So you met Oprah Winfrey. Yeah, I met Oprah Winfrey.
• 37:51
  I was cooking for Tom Cruise, and she came and interviewed him in Colorado. I met her. I've got
• 37:56
  photos with her. You just mentioned you cooked for the 300 guys, and I used to cook for our
• 38:02
  job, Butler. I didn't cook for 300 guys, I've trained a couple of ones. Okay, but for that movie,
• 38:09
  yeah, yeah, for that movie. And he was the star of that movie, a little bit of crossover.
• 38:14
  And that's the thing about Hollywood. I mean, there's always a lot of crossover. I just found out
• 38:19
  the other day, I forged a friendship. I'm going to name drop here, but I've started forging a
• 38:23
  friendship with Chuck Clausmire and Mike Rowe, you know, the dirty jobs guy. And a friend of mine
• 38:30
  that I've known since 1991 in Hollywood, one of my closest friends, she goes, oh, yeah, I used to
• 38:36
  be Mike's voice over agent way back when when you and I used to hang out because Mike and I are
• 38:42
  exactly the same age. And there's a lot of crossover between myself and Mike and Chuck.
• 38:48
  So whenever we start talking, it's almost like we know each other and turns out, you know,
• 38:53
  the fact that I didn't meet him back then, maybe I did meet him and we just didn't know who each
• 38:57
  other were. There's all these crossovers that happen with close friends. Well, I'm really
• 39:05
  grateful that our lives crossed. I felt also a kinship to you when we met and I appreciate you
• 39:12
  coming on this show. Will you share? I know I mentioned to your docs, but please share where can
• 39:18
  people find you? Where should they start? Good place to start is VinnieTotterich.com. Vinnie
• 39:25
  spoke with an i.e. VinnieTotterich.com. We have a we have an NSNG ebook there. Check that out.
• 39:33
  We gave it away free for like 300 some 1000 copies. And at some point we did as a social experiment.
• 39:40
  We put a $10 charge on it to see if people would take it more seriously. Turns out they do.
• 39:46
  We see the number of people that come in every day over the years on just picking up that ebook.
• 39:52
  And for $10, it just changes their life. 100 pounds, 200 pounds. Some people up to 350 pounds and more.
• 39:59
  And they never have to pay another dime to me or anyone else. It's all right there. If you
• 40:04
  want to do more, we have a VIP group. Everything you want to learn about me is on VinnieTotterich.com.
• 40:11
  You don't have to do anything else. We have documentaries out there. You had mentioned
• 40:15
  fat documentary, which is, it sounds like I'm bragging now. And I guess I am. It's the number one
• 40:21
  fitness document or health documentary that's ever come out. The movie Free Solo got the Oscar
• 40:27
  that year. But we toppled Free Solo and stayed on top of Free Solo for months. Someone sent me a
• 40:34
  screenshot that it went back into the top 75. I'm lying. The top 76 on iTunes again. And I think
• 40:41
  it's five years old to keep something in the top 100 like a week. It's like crazy. And fat
• 40:49
  documentary just keeps going into the top 100. I look at it like it's a legacy media. You know,
• 40:56
  it's something that will never really lose a trend because it's baseline. Like it's like, yeah,
• 41:03
  you're covering basics. You're covering very important things that really aren't going to change
• 41:09
  in my judgment. Yeah. And it's shocking to me because I don't consider myself a documentarian.
• 41:15
  I'm a guy that puts out information. We joke about this, but it's true. Fat documentary
• 41:22
  was so famous, so popular that there's a fat documentary too. How many documentaries have a
• 41:28
  sequel? This may be the only one in history that has a sequel. And then we have Beyond Impossible.
• 41:36
  I think this is around when we met James. You know, the fake meat industry and how you're being
• 41:42
  lied to. And that's when I really started to ruffle feathers. And now on my latest documentary
• 41:49
  that just came out called Dirty Keto, I ruffled so many feathers on that one that it was supposed
• 41:57
  to come out on May 30th. Amazon did not put it out until 68 days later. And before they put it
• 42:06
  out, they made me agree to a PG 13 rating on it. Did you see the movie? Did you, did you
• 42:11
  why set the movie? I have not yet now. You could get it on Amazon. Mike Rowe was incensed about this.
• 42:19
  He was the home movie beginning 10. He goes, there's not one F word. There's no S word. There's no
• 42:24
  nothing. There's not one word in there to make it a PG 13. Not one word. There's no scenes or
• 42:34
  anything. There's no one smoking. There's no sexuality. It's a documentary about Keto about
• 42:41
  the kid. I think they did it. They won't give me a reason. They said, if we can't put a PG 13 rating
• 42:47
  on this, we're not going to put it out. And they refuse to put it out under health documentaries.
• 42:52
  They put it under special interests. That's when you know you're ruffling feathers with the big
• 42:57
  boys. What industry do you think you're ruffling the feathers out though? Food. Just a big egg.
• 43:04
  Big egg. And we talk about ozempics. So big format. Okay. There you go. Yeah. So Dr. Ben Bigman is
• 43:11
  in there just spreading some knowledge. You know, he goes, look, I was there at the beginning of
• 43:16
  GLP ones. Here's what they're actually doing to your body. As I like to say, I pissed in someone's
• 43:23
  conflicts on that movie in a big way. That's when you know that you're making a difference.
• 43:29
  When they start coming after you like that, I was taken off of Wikipedia. Can you imagine
• 43:36
  when did that happen five, six years ago? It was around the time the first documentary came out.
• 43:42
  All of a sudden, I was wiped off of Wikipedia. Dr. Can't think of his name over in Europe. He got
• 43:48
  taken off on the same day. You know when you're making a difference. They come hard. They go
• 43:54
  hard in the paint. They don't stop. It's both scary, but even more of a reason why we need people
• 44:01
  like you out there, you know, slicing through all the fat preaching the truth. We need it. So thank
• 44:07
  you. Well, I appreciate it, man. I appreciate people like you. How long have you been podcasting,
• 44:13
  James? This is my third episode. I gotta tell you, you're doing great. Finally, someone who can
• 44:18
  interview someone. Jesus, I'm not kidding, James. Sometimes I'll do an interview and I'll say
• 44:23
  something really salacious to see what they'll say back. And they'll just go right over their heads
• 44:29
  and they'll just keep asking their questions like, you realize I just said that I slept with a
• 44:36
  nun, right? Did you not hear that? No follow-up on the nun thing? I'm being facetious, but you get
• 44:42
  what I'm saying. I get what you're saying. It's like many podcasts are not actually having a
• 44:46
  conversation. They're just going from question to question. And I get it. They're nervous and they're
• 44:51
  going, you know, this guy's coming on and, you know, he's on the Adam Corolla show and all this.
• 44:55
  I get that they're nervous, right? But it's for no reason because I think I'm a nice guy.
• 45:01
  That's my experience of you. But I do think that you are very specific. You know what works for you
• 45:09
  and you know what doesn't. And I think that's intimidating to people. Yeah. I imagine if someone's
• 45:14
  intimidated by you, it's probably that. It's also, we know each other a little bit. We've met
• 45:20
  in person. You've been on my show. You know, we've talked. You know, your seasoning, by the way,
• 45:26
  is great. The plug seasoning, great stuff. Everything you're doing is top notch.
• 45:32
  That means a lot coming from you because, you know, something we also share is, you know,
• 45:39
  I kind of said this earlier about the duration in this industry. Is it? I don't agree with
• 45:44
  lots of these trends either. Like I very much follow a similar philosophy that you do. I might
• 45:50
  have different reasons for it because obviously we've lived different lives. I don't buy any of this
• 45:56
  shit either. So that means a lot coming from you. I call them doctors without shirts, but you'll
• 46:01
  see a lot of these guys align. You know, they were talking coronavirus a year ago. Now they're
• 46:06
  talking Manuka honey and watermelon, which is it? Because I'm confused by your message. I don't know
• 46:13
  where it all lies. Here's a good last question I wanted to ask you. So what's the relationship to
• 46:20
  science for you? Because as you know, every few years someone pulls out some science thing that
• 46:27
  this is why we should be doing this. So you clearly have a lot of life experience. You have
• 46:34
  experience with clients. You have all this time in the industry. How does this science come
• 46:43
  into play for you? I come from a science background, right? You know, science is ever changing.
• 46:50
  You know, when people start with certitude, that's when you have to run. You know, when we start
• 46:55
  becoming certain of things, it's game over, right? So it's always a moving target. We hear these
• 47:02
  new studies. The first thing I do, and I'm not the only one that does this. Nina does it.
• 47:08
  My friend Zoe Harcombe does it to a degree that you can't even imagine. She's one of the smartest
• 47:14
  people I know. They'll say, you know, new science comes out. The first thing I'll look at is where
• 47:20
  to come from. If it came from Walter Willett over at Harvard, I'm already rolling my eyes,
• 47:26
  but I generally don't stop there. I'll read the abstract and see what they did and how they did it.
• 47:32
  And if it's like something that came out of epidemiology over a 20-year study,
• 47:38
  okay, you could just ball that up and throw it away because you can look at all epidemiological
• 47:44
  studies and squint and make it say, whatever you wanted to say, all of it. So if I start seeing,
• 47:49
  okay, this was a double blind and blah, blah, blah, blah, and this happened. Okay, now I'm looking
• 47:55
  and now you want to look and see in the abstract, what were they going for and what did they have
• 48:00
  to make happen? And a lot of times the exact opposite of what the headlines will say is the truth.
• 48:07
  But it's usually not very hard, especially when you can go to a Zoe Harcombe or one of these people
• 48:13
  who can, they'll dig in, she'll dig in really fast. Nina does too, really well. Nina's been here
• 48:19
  to my house and we'll have a drink, literally a drink and sit down and complain about all the
• 48:25
  things that are wrong with science, right? And how the headlines don't tell the truth. So
• 48:33
  I don't have a problem with science, but bring me some science that will change my mind.
• 48:38
  As of right now, that hasn't happened. That's well said, Vinnie. Thank you again for being on the show.
• 48:45
  This has been every day ancestral. Thank you all for listening and watching.
• 48:50
  Please go check out Vinnie's work, the show notes, the links, so I'll be there.
• 48:57
  Thank you, Ken Vinnie. Thank you so much for joining me on every day ancestral.
• 49:03
  If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You could find the
• 49:08
  show notes links and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com. That's E-A-T-P-L-U-C-K dot com.
• 49:18
  And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious,
• 49:25
  live well, and keep it ancestral.