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Responsibility Over Blame · Emotional Sobriety: The Next Step in Recovery

• 0:07
  Speaker A: Welcome to Emotional Sobriety, the next step in Recovery, with Dr. Alan Berger and Tom Rutledge. So happy to be here with you, Alan. You're in Northern California currently, right? You're like Santa, bringing recovery across these United States and sometimes to other countries.
• 0:25
  Speaker B: I was in West Virginia a couple days ago. In fact, the last Thursday workshop I did from West Virginia and then I flew here to. Flew into San Jose and got driven here up to Watsonville to a wonderful retreat center in Mount Madonna, I think it's called. And it's just remarkable. There's a Hindu temple on the grounds here and people come up on the weekends to all the Hindus in this different vicinity close to this facility, come up and celebrate on Saturday. But the energy up here is just very spiritual, very positive. And I'm up here now working with Tommy Rosen, Recovery 2.0. And Tommy has a great program. It brings yoga into Kundalini, yoga, Hatha Yoga, some of the other yogas into the space for recovery. He's got a great following and well deserved. He's got 35 years of recovery himself and he's got a lot to share and a lot to teach us. His breathwork stuff in itself. Today we did the Breath of Fire and it was just incredibly empowering. Just that experience over about 10 minutes was quite remarkable. And I could really see how that the meditation he teaches and the state that yoga can put you in can be so valuable in self regulation. And look, it's in emotional sobriety. A big piece of it is how do we get balanced again? How do we regulate ourselves? And he's got something to offer to that, to the answer to that question.
• 2:14
  Speaker A: My first and only time trying yoga was actually at the recovery reimagined conference that we did in Dublin a couple years ago.
• 2:25
  Speaker B: Was it Dublin?
• 2:26
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Speaker B: Or Dublin or London?
• 2:27
  Speaker A: Dublin, yeah. It was the second year. Yeah. And I did. Do you partake in it when you go on these retreats or. No. It's not your thing?
• 2:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I do. I didn't this morning. I was. Yesterday was quite a challenging day of travel for me. I did this afternoon. I did the breath and stuff like that. But I've done that before. I went on his retreat at Costa Rica last year and doing that again this year and I did a week long, the yoga experience and it was very good for me. I really enjoyed it.
• 3:02
  Speaker A: Well, I feel for you, Alan. We just had the South Bay roundup here in the South Bay, California and one of the first. I think it was the first or second year that I, you know, was. I met you and was getting to know you, that you did a presentation there at Roundup, and you had your suitcases with, like, all of your. Your books and your, you know, your materials. And I mean, travel takes a lot out of all of us. And then when you're on stage or when you're doing that, you've got to be, like, cranked to 110 the whole time. So, like I said, could feel the energy. You're coming off stage and you're just, like, finally taking a breath. And listeners, you know, you don't. You don't get to see the real, you know, the. The real what goes on behind, you know, backstage. But it's. He puts a lot up there, man. It's a. It's a lot.
• 3:49
  Speaker B: Thanks. Thanks, Patrick, for recognizing that. It means a lot. Yeah. And we've. We've gotten a chance to travel some together and to share this stuff. And I'm just so glad that you've been on this journey with me and I've been on your journey with you. It's wonderful.
• 4:04
  Speaker A: So today we wanted to discuss the difference between blame and responsibility. And we've got a nutshell here. It's. There's a difference between blame and responsibility.
• 4:15
  Speaker B: Blame is an indication, a symptom of how we are stuck in our development, because blame comes from low differentiation or a low level of emotional maturity. So when our maturity, when we're stuck at a certain stage in maturity, which we all are, we're stuck at the. It's all about me, and I am more. The more I have. When we're stuck at that stage, we end up being fused with our environment. So what it means is I'm very dependent on what happens for how I'm going to feel about myself if things go my way. I feel wonderful. I feel great. Life is good. I want to celebrate. If things don't, typically I'll get upset. And when that doesn't work, I typically withdrawn, just feel defeated. Bill talked about that was the key formula or equation that he eventually got insight into that helped explain what his depression was about. So he identified his emotional dependence. And I think that that's right. I can see that that's been my problem, too. When things don't go my way, you know, the way I think they should, I get upset about it. I try to manipulate people to do what I want. And when that doesn't work, then I'm just deflated. Sometimes people become people pleasers in response to that. Sometimes people will try not to Care. There's a lot of different responses to that. The important thing here, though, is to understand that when. Where our emotional maturity is low, we are fused with our environment. So when something happens to me, let's say you and I are supposed to do something and you don't show up. Yeah, right. And I'm disappointed. Well, what I do is I'll blame you. You know, how come you're always setting me up like this and disappointing me? Because I don't know how to just be disappointed without blaming somebody. If it happens, somebody's got to be at fault, is the thinking I have. Well, that set a low level of emotional maturity. Doesn't have to be anybody's fault.
• 6:40
  Speaker C: It's.
• 6:40
  Speaker B: It didn't work out, but I couldn't. I can't see that when I'm immature. I take it personally. How dare you not show up for me? You should do everything I want you to do all the time for me to be okay. That's my demand. But I never say it out loud because I would be too outrageous. And yet it's exactly what I feel
• 7:02
  Speaker A: and what I'm doing, it can be literally deadly. To be fused with your environment because of the nature of environment is so unpredictable and uncontrollable and volatile. And it's going to be what it's going to be irrespective of our desires for it.
• 7:19
  Speaker B: Exactly, Patrick. It's. It's when I put my center of gravity outside of myself and into my environment. I have just given away the authorship of my life. Now somebody else gets to write my tale instead of me. Somebody else writes my story instead of me. One way we can think about emotional sobriety is that I retain the copyright and authorship of my work, of my life. But we don't do that when we're dependent. We blame it on everybody else. And so this becomes a serious problem because when I blame it on everyone else, then I'm operating from the big lie that if everybody would just do what I want them to do, I'll be okay. So it turns me into a control freak trying to manipulate, you know, cajole, convince people at every turn, you know, of the. Of the. Of the clock or every second that takes off the clock to manipulate them, to do it the way I want them to do it.
• 8:27
  Speaker C: Well, right.
• 8:28
  Speaker A: And even if. Even if we could actualize that, if we were, you know, a puppet master and we can architect every person and every situation to be exactly as we wanted it to be, it poses the question, is that a world we even want to live in, you know, because it's. It's just all a reflection of ourselves.
• 8:46
  Speaker B: Well, you're right. It's a world we think we want to live in because we feel that. That we have no choice. But here's the great thing about emotional sobriety. Emotional sobriety is about discovering that there are options, there are choices that you can make, and some of which are going to be better and more enhancing for your life than other ones. That's important to understand. Now let's talk about responsibility, because that's one of the things that when I'm responsible, I'm not blaming anyone. And here's the big difference. Blame turns me into a victim. I felt this way because of what you did. I'm reacting this way because of how you are. I am not keeping the authorship of my life. When I get support like what that does, what we were talking about. Now, for my emotional sobriety, then I can take responsibility. Now, the difference is when I take responsibility, it empowers me, and it gives me more possibilities. It brings back my enthusiasm, my zest, my zeal for life, for whatever's going to happen. And when I'm doing the other, I don't feel that. I feel stuck. I feel frustrated. I'm constantly trying to manipulate people in conflict. I don't enjoy that.
• 10:19
  Speaker C: All right.
• 10:20
  Speaker A: It's a lot of fear and anxiety because you're always on the back foot.
• 10:24
  Speaker B: Yep, you got it.
• 10:25
  Speaker A: So let's walk through then the scenario that you outlined, which I don't show up for something we're supposed to meet for, and it really messes up your schedule. You know, it's just a. It causes a big mess and, you know, and you're upset.
• 10:41
  Speaker B: What I would say is, instead of being mad at you about it, is say, Patrick, you know, I'm sure you're. There were some good reasons for why we couldn't get together today. First thing I would say, are you okay? Instead of making it about me. I know you want to be here. And something might have. Might must have come up that overrode your sense of responsibility. Because what I know about you is you are very responsible. And so if I hold all that and don't take it personally, if I take it personally, I forget about you because I'm making it all about me. I'll forget that you are reliable. I'll forget that you do have. You do honor your commitments, that it must be a big deal for you not to show up, whatever it is. So by taking responsibility to my response to being disappointed. I can really investigate what happened from a position of compassion, understanding, tolerance and love. And I don't have to polarize and lose my relationship with you because I got disappointed over it. I can just use that to have a better relationship with you by expressing my understanding, etc. Etc.
• 11:59
  Speaker A: And I hope that listeners can discern that, like what you're prescribing here or what you're. The way the new framework you're talking about, looking at disappointment through, what you're actually doing is, is treating yourself. You're treating, you know, your own feelings of anger and powerlessness. You know, it's. It's in a. From a certain sense you're treating me with compassion in this scenario, but you're also, at the same time, you're treating me with compassion. You're empowering yourself.
• 12:26
  Speaker B: You got it. That's it. And that's the difference between blame and responsibility. Blame disempowers you. It denigrates you. It puts you down. It says that you are the victim of all the things going on in your life and you have no power and ability to change any of that. And it's a big, big lie, big lie. When I take responsibility, I'm empowered. I'm not disempowered. I feel power. I feel sense of agency. I can influence what's going on in my life. I don't have to be a victim of it. I can figure out how to use this experience to either have a better relationship with you, how to show more love and tolerance in others. I mean, it's an opportunity. There's no question about it. For, for improving my relationship with myself and for you. And that's the gift of emotional sobriety. The ability to turn these situations that before used to cause so much trouble for us into something that can be unbelievably valuable.
• 13:34
  Speaker A: By the way, that didn't happen. I was on time today. I think I was just letting everybody know. Now I'm blaming.
• 13:42
  Speaker B: This is not a carom shot to you, right?
• 13:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you, man? Are you in Canada right now or New York or where are you?
• 13:53
  Speaker C: I am in Canada. I am just on the Ottawa river between Ottawa and Montreal. That's where my youngest sister lives. She turned 63 today. And so I was at a really cool. Yeah, I was at a cool secular meeting in Ottawa last night, which was really great. I had a bit of day job work to do in Ottawa. There were was a three, a four and a seven year celebration and a person speaking who was two years sober and had never shared their whole story before. So it was like a, you know, you can't write this stuff. It's so good having been at this a while.
• 14:39
  Speaker A: Joe, like, what do you find is like the real. What are the epochs of sobriety where you feel like the shifts really happen? You know, one year is obviously a big one, but like, when's the, when's the next milestone? They're all important. Obviously every day is important, but like, when does things, the things really kind of like, kick. Kick up a few notches?
• 15:00
  Speaker C: I continue 50 years into the journey having these breakthroughs. The most recent I've been working on is like, if you were to ask me, so what are you doing today? And I would say, well, I have to call so and so. And it's so and so, such and such. So I've got to like, like they're all duties or obligations. Like, I have no agency in my life that, that I couldn't tell you I'm doing what I want and I'm going to call so and so and I'm looking forward to this or that. It's like I, you know, I don't know what, why I do it, but I treat everything as a duty or an obligation. Right. Like I was when I was a drug addict teenager. The greatest, like, the most amazing thing I could imagine would be to be a dj, an FM radio station.
• 16:03
  Speaker B: Right.
• 16:04
  Speaker C: Like, that would be the most amazing, you know, curating music for people who are listening and getting to meet people I admire and like, it would be the most amazing thing in the world. And then when I got to do it, I treated it like it was a duty, you know, like a task. Right. You know, instead of enjoying the moment like a child. Right. I. Yeah, you move beyond that right away. Yeah. Yeah. I want to be more childlike.
• 16:31
  Speaker B: Right.
• 16:32
  Speaker C: To bring curiosity and positive regard to everything. Every phone call I make, every meeting I walk into, you know, every conversation I'm about to have.
• 16:43
  Speaker A: Yeah. I've been ruminating about childhood lately because, well, you know, I have friends that are having babies and just thinking about. Yeah. Like the open gate and the innocence and inquisitiveness that.
• 16:58
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 16:58
  Speaker A: And I think that that's, you know, drug seeking people. Right. You're all, you're almost trying to recapture that, you know, through a shortcut. You're trying to basically your senses. Yeah.
• 17:08
  Speaker C: And you weren't wrong to want to regain that and recapture that. But the idea of doing it with an artificial substance is a fool's Gold.
• 17:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, exactly. Ran myself right off the rails with that one.
• 17:27
  Speaker C: But one of the best descriptions I ever heard of addiction was it was a solution that almost worked for a lot of years.
• 17:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it, it did work, you know, for a while. I mean, because the most pressing, I would say the most pressing problem I had when I started using was just my, uh, my adolescent, you know, rage, anxiety, alienation, fear, all the things that were quelled almost immediately when I took my medicine.
• 18:00
  Speaker C: And you weren't wrong to want to find a way to self soothe, but the sort of delusion is that something external can do that. Some people get addicted to gambling or to, you know, a partner or to status and a job, and other people, it's a substance, but it's always something external is going to make my insides feel right where the answer comes. You were talking about the different stages of evolution of like emotional sobriety. You know, the. And one of the stages there is self regulation, which will never get perfect, but we'll at least be able to identify. You know, I planned on walking due north today and something threw me off and I'm northwest. I need to make a slight adjustment and carry on. Right. You know, get back on the beam and we learn to self regulate as opposed to yet feeling overwhelmed or controlled by just, you know, emotions sometimes. It's one of the things that was very helpful to me was learning mindfulness meditation because there you, you just observe what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling and sensations going on in my body. Like, oh, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm clutching. I, I'm, I have fists. I'm not loose, right. Or, or my jaw is tight, or I have an aching in the back of my neck. And often, you know, being emotionally, which I, you know, jokingly refer to myself as. Right. You know, like intellectually, I'm very comfortable in that world. Right. But if we were going to sit down and let's, let's hang out, have some coffee and feel together. Now I'm a little more awkward. I, you know, I don't. I describe what you're feeling, Joe. This is a side story, but at Canadian Music Week, I was covering that and there was a panel on. It was on songwriting. But one of the artists, John K. Pack, who he was part of, he was the music side of a lyric and song team that, you know, had, you know, Rod Stewart hits and some of the Motown hits and that they produced together. And the musician, John K. Pack, said if someone asks Me, John, how are you feeling? I'll ask. Can I sit down at your piano? And now he can express his feelings, you know, where his words fail.
• 21:08
  Speaker A: That's so beautiful. Tell me where you think the emotional sobriety can or could come into this scenario. I have a friend who just, just had a baby or his wife just had a baby three weeks ago and he is flipping out and you know, yesterday they had a big blow up and you know, they're talking divorce and all this kind of crazy like nuclear option stuff. And I was trying to impart something to him of, well, first of all, you know, this is a lot more normal than it probably feels, that sense of panic, you know, because like, you know, you're paradigm is completely shifted for how you run your life and kind of what the, what the priorities are. And also you don't know how to do this at all. And you're like basically starting on like a doctorate level program, you know, after just learning a few sentences of a new language, all of a sudden you're thrust into like, you know, finals week and you've got to just learn how to do it and. But basically, you know, emotional sobriety as some version of this too shall pass that basically if you could just, you know, hang in there and release yourself from the expectation that you're not going to be crazy and the expectation that you should, you should be, know, should know how to do this somewhat that you know, you'll be able to find your sanity again. So I don't know, what would you tell us? What would you tell them? What would be the emotional sobriety point of view?
• 22:41
  Speaker C: I would share. I wouldn't tell them what to do. I would share my experience. Because without knowing this person at all, I know a few universal likelihoods around these things. He and his wife are sleep deprived. He and his wife are feeling financial stress they've never felt before. Like why would he be in a doctorate program if in part he didn't want to be a good provider? So he wants to be a good dad, he wants to be a good partner. But relationships are work, right? They're good work, right? It's fulfilling work. You know, on average, if you look at people's happiness scores, people who are in committed relationship are happier than people who are single in many cases. It doesn't mean you can't have happy single people or unhappy married people. So he's done a lot of the things that are working towards his goals, but the pathway, he has no map for it, right? So he's in Uncharted territory that he's never been in before. And so there's a level of stress and what resources can he turn himself over to? Do you have a therapist? Would you consider a therapist? Is it possible that somebody knows the answers to some of the questions that seem to be baffling you? What other resources can you go to at a time where you're in some new uncharted territory and you're floundering? Right. You know, like, if you're thriving, great. But if you're floundering, why are you doing it yourself? What is this macho? Is this. What is this? Is this independent, man? Independent? You know that's silly, right?
• 24:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 24:50
  Speaker C: You can be in charge and still have a team to support you.
• 24:54
  Speaker B: Right.
• 24:54
  Speaker C: You know, so there are a number of things that can be done now to ease the tension and to reconnect where he can communicate better with his partner. And she's probably in an area he might be feeling that he used to get all of her attention, and now the baby is getting all of her attention. And whether he's aware of it or not, he may be reacting to that. Right. Where am I in this? Am I chopped liver now? Right. I've given you what I need. You have my seed, and I'm disposable. Right. Like, that wouldn't be true, but that would be a normal feeling for someone in his position to be. So, like, emotional sobriety is just a little bit more clarity and. And as you can hear, I don't come with any answers, but at least identifying the questions, like. Like, is this going on for you or is that going on for you? Could you possibly do this? Could you possibly do that? And all of those things have to be done one breath at a time, one step at a time, and hopefully still be committed to the amazing journey that he's chosen for himself. Fatherhood, partnership, education, you know, Fantastic. What an exciting story that you're in the middle of. Part of emotional maturity, Emotional sobriety is knowing I can't transcend the human experience. Emotional sobriety isn't being unemotional. It's living with the range and living with the idea that winds and rains and, you know, road closures are going to alter my plan every day. You know, these are things that are going to impact my emotional sobriety. And I will come around the corner when I'm late for an appointment and see nothing but tail lights and I'm stuck in traffic and go, why does this always happen to me? It doesn't. But I'm Caught in this, you know, sort of emotional entanglement about, you know, a self pitying moment. Right.
• 27:18
  Speaker A: Main character syndrome.
• 27:20
  Speaker C: Yeah. To identify these things is the emotional sobriety transcending them. Doesn't happen in our lifetime, as far as I know. A lobotomy might help, but consider the consequences. It's irreversible. Earlier I was talking about like the difference between blame and responsibility. And you know, sometimes I'm stuck between the difference between agency and imprisonment. Like I talk about, what are you doing today? Well, I have to do this and then I have to do that and then so and so needs this and then I've got to go to this meeting. And now those things are true. I've made a commitment to phone this person. I look forward to going to the meeting. Right. And sometimes I find myself talking in this I have no control thing. And responsibility involves some, you know, limits in my life because I've made a responsibility. We talked about, you know, child rearing. Right. That's a huge responsibility. What, what I didn't know at the time is the day, the days will drag and the years will fly. Right. You know, like my children are young adults, you know, in their mid to late 30s. Before I look in the mirror, I think I'm in my mid-30s, you know, like that time has passed so fast. Right. You know, I go, wait, who's that in the mirror? Yeah. Who's that handsome old guy?
• 29:04
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, I think the same when I look at you.
• 29:08
  Speaker C: Yeah. I'm not always so kind though. But because I. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a perception thing. And blame and responsibility are perception things like I'm to blame. And one of the things I've learned in my emotional sobriety journey is that I tend to look at things in triads. Right. I, I see people as perpetrators, victims and rescuers.
• 29:42
  Speaker B: Right.
• 29:42
  Speaker C: And I, and I'll put myself usually, either I'm the rescuer, you know, I'll save you. Right. Or I'm the victim. Rarely do I put myself in the perpetrator role.
• 29:55
  Speaker B: Right.
• 29:56
  Speaker C: You know, I'm the, the, the one who's causing this discomfort and clash. And if I would just step back a little bit and just listen instead of gaslight, maybe, you know, we can resolve this.
• 30:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:13
  Speaker C: And, and, and that is better. But what's even better is nobody's to blame.
• 30:23
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:23
  Speaker C: Everybody is acting. Everybody. Yeah, that's right. Everyone's acting in accordance with their programming and their conditioning. Right. And to what extent we can transcend that programming and conditioning is how much we're willing to work and how much help we have in doing that. Like, some people just never have, you know, an Eightfold path or a 12 step program or a community of peers who help hold us accountable and, you know, carry us through. Right. Some people just don't have that available to them. Right. So, you know, it. Again, it's not a hierarchy of more evolved people because some of that has to do with, you know, do you have a place to live? Right. You need that first. Right. You have a, you know, some level of financial security at least to get through the day. Right. Some people don't have that. Right. And yeah, some people don't have a pot to piss in. Right. They just, you know, they. And so talking to them about emotional sobriety is a little, little ahead of the.
• 31:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, they're. Well, their crises are clear and pressing and, you know, they're. They don't always occur in an emotional realm or a lot. Not at least not one that they can.
• 31:50
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 31:51
  Speaker A: Get some separation from.
• 31:53
  Speaker C: Yeah. And. And again, Blaine, I feel I'm giving away my agency or it's been taken away from me.
• 32:02
  Speaker B: Right.
• 32:02
  Speaker C: Just depending.
• 32:03
  Speaker B: Right.
• 32:04
  Speaker C: And responsibility. Okay, what is my responsibility in this? Because I don't have the whole responsibility to make everybody happy, but I have a. I have a duty, I have a role. I have a. As a humanist. I have a commitment to other people, even complete strangers that I have. I make a difference in the world and I have to be mindful of that. And what am I going to do? How am I going to contribute, even anonymously to people who will never know about it? That matters to me. I have responsibility. And that isn't a burden. That is a value system that gives my life meaning. Sam.