Latest / Recruiting Evolution / Industry Spotlight | Chris Allaire, CEO at Averity | Innovating Staffing Strategies for Long Term Growth

Transcript

Industry Spotlight | Chris Allaire, CEO at Averity | Innovating Staffing Strategies for Long Term Growth · Recruiting Evolution

• Chris Allaire [00:00:00]: The quality in your database outlast the quantity of your database. I don't need a database of two and a half million people. I don't need to put 10,000 people a month in it. I don't brag about how big my database is. One of the things we do do is brag about the quality and the integrity of the information in our database. Our candidates are up to date. We know where they're working, we know what they're doing. We follow their career so we're not constantly flooding the pipeline of new it's one of these things like what you have works. Chris Allaire [00:00:31]: It's been working. Kortney Harmon [00:00:33]: Hi, I'm Kortney Harmon, director of industry relations at Crelate. This is the industry Spotlight, a series of the full desk Experience, a curlate original podcast. In this series, we will talk with top leaders and influencers who are shaping the talent industry, shining a light on popular trends, the latest news and the stories that laid the groundwork for their success. Welcome back to another episode of the full Desk Experience. Industry Spotlight welcome back to the full desk experience. I'm your host, Kortney Harmon, and today we're going to take a deep dive into the world of it, staffing and recruiting. Today I have the privilege of hosting a true leader in the space, Chris Alair. He's the CEO and founder of averity. Kortney Harmon [00:01:19]: Chris has been at the forefront of the tech landscape for decades, navigating its ever changing nature and consistently delivering exceptional results. With his career spanning across major cities like San Francisco, Boston, Los Angeles, New York, he's truly seen it all. And today we're going to dive into Chris's insights, exploring challenges and opportunities in the current tech market as well as latest innovations in recruiting and his vision for the future of a verity. So buckle up, get ready for the conversation. Packed with valuable knowledge and actionable insights. Chris, thank you so much for joining me today. As we start, do our listeners a favor and take a little bit deeper dive into who you are, your journey, how you got here, and a little bit about your organization today. Chris Allaire [00:02:05]: Thanks for having me today. I appreciate it. To echo your point, yes, decades. I have been in staffing recruiting for 25 years now. Started before 1998 when it was before the real Internet. So I have started in a company that was doing a lot of cold calling and worked my fingers to the bone for many, many years. Started in Boston, moved out to San Francisco, built a couple of offices out there, took a small break from the space for a little bit just to kind of catch my breath and then got hard and heavy back into it in York. And my career has been only tech for the most part, full time and contract staffing on a national level. Chris Allaire [00:02:51]: I've built companies, I've built teams, I've built cities, I've built divisions. And finally, about ten years ago, I knew there needed to be a change in the landscape on the way things were going to be managed and into the staffing business. I had worked for some good companies, but wasn't able to really put my own stamp onto it. And I knew that there were things that needed be changed. I knew there were improvements that need to be made. So that's kind of where a verity spawned from was like, you know what? I want to pioneer a change in the industry. I want to change the way people think about recruiting. I want to change the way people think about technology recruiting, and specifically in New York. Chris Allaire [00:03:27]: So that was my goal. So that's where the company kind of came from. A verity itself is almost ten years old. It is named after my now ten year old daughter. So when I started the company, it was interesting. So I had a six month old daughter and when I decided to start my business, I talked to my wife and I said, I think this is something I really need to do. And she said, I think it's about time. So I got the ultimate not only support system, but I got kind of shoved off a ledge. Chris Allaire [00:03:55]: So that's how the company started. I liquidated my four hundred and one k. I put enough money aside to make sure that my family was fed for at least six months so I can get things going, grabbed my laptop, grab a phone, sat at my dining room table. And that's how the company was born. So that's from the infancy stage. So that's like 30,000ft on a little bit of my story, kind of where I come from and how a verity was born. Kortney Harmon [00:04:17]: And you've grown that? Chris Allaire [00:04:18]: Grown it dramatically. Yes. Kortney Harmon [00:04:20]: You're not at your kitchen table anymore. Chris Allaire [00:04:22]: I'm not at my kitchen table anymore. So we had an office in midtown New York for a while until the great 2020 hiatus came. So then we all went remote and now we're kind of spread all over creation a little bit, but loving it. But it's been great. Kortney Harmon [00:04:34]: Amazing. Congratulations on the upcoming birthday of your business. Chris Allaire [00:04:38]: I love that. Kortney Harmon [00:04:39]: Now with a verity today, you mentioned contract staffing and it. Do you kind of do it all when it comes to it? Do you direct? Do you do contract staffing? You do the whole nine yards. Chris Allaire [00:04:47]: Yes. So we're a little untraditional. So we're a full desk type of company, so people are doing business development, lead generation. As a company, though, we're separated into teams. What we have are teams that are handling different types of segments within the technology sector. So we have a team that handles like back end software engineering, DevOps, security, data science, data analytics. So we're more segmented into the technology. So what we have are teams of people that are constantly recruiting candidates that are within that skill set. Chris Allaire [00:05:15]: But we have, on the front end of it, we have people that are handling a little bit more of the client relations, business development, sales. So we constantly have a pool of candidates that we can pick from. But the nice thing is there's no client ownership either. So anybody can kind of talk to any client about anybody that we're working with at any given time. So it's really, what I've done is really created like a very high end, team oriented atmosphere where really everyone is rewarded based on the performance of the company and the performance of the team. So it's a little bit different, as opposed to find job, find candidate, fill job, get paid. It's a lot different model. We do contract and we do full time. Chris Allaire [00:05:52]: The reason why we do both, honestly, is you need to roll with the punches on what your clients need. So if my clients need contractors, we're going to help them with contractors. If they need full time, we're going to help them full time. The ebbs and flows of the economy are also kind of end that way. What we went through from 21 to 22, 2021 into 2022 was a heavy, hard and heavy full time staffing. That was the demand on the market when we went into kind of finishing 2022. Walking into 2023, we saw the shift that full time hiring was going to stop for a little while or kind of slow down, but you still need staff. So all of a sudden, our clients turned to like, hey, we need contractors, we need consulting help. Chris Allaire [00:06:30]: 2023 has been 90% consulting contract staff. So being able to handle both definitely gives us a lot more ability to be nimble and service our clients on a higher level. Kortney Harmon [00:06:43]: I love that. Not only are you the one stop shop, but you're essentially covering both sides when the market ebbs and flows. We talk about that a lot on the show. Your model is very different from the traditional when I ran an it desk. So I love that. I love the difference of where you are and kind of what you've created. Talk to me about how you've seen over the years the tech landscape change since you've been in it. Chris Allaire [00:07:05]: I love tech because it's ever changing. And anything you did two years ago, it's not so much irrelevant these days, but it's changed so much that no matter what you did five years ago, it's not really used anymore. So when I started back in the day, it was client server, it was desktop. You had a client side, you had the server side, SQL databases, et cetera, and then really gravitated more towards the open source world back in 1999 and 2000. And I've really seen the open source marketplace kind of grow, which has been awesome. So nowadays you're looking at things where it's a combination of open source AI, machine learning Operations, DevOps security, Infosec. But it's been great that organizations we've seen, there's a lot of companies that are still running the same. They would call like, monolithic systems that are still running the organizations, right? And they're too large and cumbersome to update. Chris Allaire [00:07:56]: But depending on the organizations now, they're embracing all the crazy things that you can do on the front end that can change your website, but not only when it changes your website, it changes all the media presence that you have around everything. And it's kind of instantaneous with microservices. Now with technology, you're able to deploy code at ten times the speed that you used to be able to. You have all these new techniques out there, something called stage left, which is now the ability to QA things before it even hits a sandbox. So the tech landscape is growing. It's constantly growing dramatically. It's constantly changing dramatically, which is always the best part about it that I love. And know, when you're middle of know, you see people and what they were doing two years ago, and they're like, yeah, that was two years ago. Chris Allaire [00:08:37]: I don't want to do that anymore. Now I'm doing, I did a lot of work in the drupal space, especially in New York. I kind of had a good ownership over it. Most of the people I knew, the drupal space, none of them are doing that anymore. They're all doing go, or they're all doing machine learning, or they're doing real time. They're building DevOps. So they've all graduated to new technologies and new ways of distributed systems. So I got to say this. Chris Allaire [00:08:58]: The fun part is it's hard to keep up with because every time you turn around, something new comes out. But it's really fun to keep up with because every time you turn around, something new comes out. Whatever version of Javascript you're using two years ago, you're on something completely different. So I would say there's like you have horses and you have a horse race, so all you got to do is as long as you're playing in the horse race, you're always going to be in pretty good shape because God only knows what technology is going to come out next, whether it's node js or Python or go, or if Java is still kind of in the race or not. But it all depends on what your clients are using, how they're using it, what they're doing with it, what they're building, who's using it, how quickly they want to deploy code. So it's a fun space to be in. Kortney Harmon [00:09:36]: So not only are your teams ever changing, learning themselves all of this vernacular, because that was my biggest judgment going into it. It was like, okay, wait, all right, got that. And then once you function, you have to function in chaos because it changes. So what you're telling me is your team functions well in chaos. I love that. Chris Allaire [00:09:54]: I tell you, Google everything. Everyone's a little intimidated when they first get in technology recruiting. And I don't hire people that have a recruiting background, I hire people that have sales and business backgrounds, relationship backgrounds, and they're all intimidated. It's like how you go learn the tech. I'm like, you really don't have to learn the tech, you have to understand what goes with what. So when people start talking about it, you kind of know where they're going with it. That's what you need to understand because I'm telling you, if you learn it today, in six months, you're going to have to learn something completely new. Anyways. Chris Allaire [00:10:20]: Don't really worry about it. Understand the business, understand why they're doing it this way, what they're building, who's using it, how they're doing it, some of the architecture behind it, but the rest of it's just you're going to Google the hell out of it. It's little numbers and letters and however many three letter acronyms you can think of off the top of your head, they're out there. Kortney Harmon [00:10:36]: I love that. That's great. You mentioned not hiring past recruiters. I don't know if that falls into this next question or not, but what are some of the biggest challenges you see companies or maybe yourself facing when trying to hire it? Talent right now, obviously, that ever evolving landscape, what are the biggest challenge you have or you see with other companies trying to hire skilled talent right now. Chris Allaire [00:10:59]: Number one, unless unrealistic demands for unrealistic prices. And I'm not saying that everybody out there needs to have $300,000 budgets, et cetera, et cetera, but you have to understand what you can afford and who falls in that category. I joke about as lots of real estate. If you want a two bedroom apartment on Park Avenue overlooking the park for $2,000 a month, it's not going to happen. No, but that's what I want. It's like, well, I appreciate what you want, but that costs $10,000 a month. So I think realistic expectations. Number one, as far as understanding what you're really going to get for what you can afford or understanding really what you need, and then working your budgets around that. Chris Allaire [00:11:40]: So getting yourself in line with what the market actually can bring you, that's realistic. Number two, speed of interviewing. The market moves very quickly. It's a living and breathing thing, and you don't have the ability to get a resume and then get back to that or get a resume from somebody or from moss, for example, and then three days later turn around and be like, I finally had a chance to review the resume. I hate to tell you, but number one, it's not a resume. That's a candidate. That's a real human being with a name who's active on the market. So when you're getting something from me, you're getting a piece of paper. Chris Allaire [00:12:14]: But that's a representation of the skill set of a genuine person. Right? Three days from now, they've continued to look. So maybe I can get the momentum back a little bit. But it's also, after first round interviews, can you get feedback immediately? Right. Can you set up second round interviews immediately? I think that's the biggest thing I've seen, is feedback and momentum are what makes deals happen. That's how people get hired. You see them, you like them, you get them through the process quickly. You make them an offer, you know they're going to accept, and they're going to be accepted not only when they accept, they're super excited. Chris Allaire [00:12:50]: Now, I've seen a lot of times they're like, oh, well, we're going to start with a lower offer and what they're looking for. I don't understand that. They're looking for $170,000 a year. Don't offer them 150. Okay. Oh, we'll negotiate. No, don't negotiate. They don't want to negotiate because if I have to come to them with an offer at 150, they're going to laugh at me. Chris Allaire [00:13:08]: They're going to be like, chris, are you kidding me? They're like, you know what? I'm just going to keep looking. And then I got to turn around and say, guess what? Not only did you lowball this person, you kind of insulted them. And guess what? They really don't want to work there anymore. So instead of just listening to the experts on what it's going to take to deliver this candidate to your doorstep on Monday morning, you decided to go outside of that world and say, oh, no, we know better. So, not that I have all the answers out there, but I have been doing this, and I've seen companies, they say, we've hired a lot of people. We've hired 15 people this year. I hate to tell you this, but I run an organization that has 35 to 40 placements a month to a quarter. So we know what we're doing over here. Chris Allaire [00:13:47]: So just kind of like, listen to the experts and take advice. When you team up with somebody, team up with them and don't try to argue with them. Just team up with them. Understand that they know what they're doing. You decided to team up with an agency, not just to find resumes, but to find people who are going to, you're going to work for the company, who are qualified for the job, who are interested in the job, who are available to start. So team up with somebody on those things. If they're not qualified, they're not going to get the job. If they're not interested, they're not going to interview with you. Chris Allaire [00:14:18]: And if they're not available, what are we doing? Kortney Harmon [00:14:21]: You really hone into one thing, and I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but I don't think everyone does this well. So what it sounds like you're telling me is there's a lot of education and consultation with the clients that you work with, and you want them to rely on your knowledge. What do you tell people in this space that struggle to get people to buy into their process? They're like, well, we know what we're talking about. Yes, you do. But you don't understand market value. You don't understand trends. You don't understand we're talking to hundreds of people a week, and we can give you better insight. How do you get clients and prospects to buy into what you're saying? Do you have magic, Bill? Chris Allaire [00:14:58]: I kind of do, but I just tell them, I'm like, listen, you don't have to listen to me. You can continue to do what you've been doing on your own, which hasn't worked. I'm not a stockholder. I don't work there. Right. I'm not going to accept the offer. However, if you listen to me, this will get filled quickly. You don't have to. Chris Allaire [00:15:17]: My job is to supply information to you in order to aid in the process that's going to happen and to deliver this. And when we deliver, we don't have any buyers remorse. Our reputation in the marketplace is impeccable. People don't leave. I've had what we call them fall offs in the industry where people leave or let go within 90 days. I can count on, in ten years, I can probably count maybe seven or eight that's actually happened. And that's hundreds of places. I mean, beyond hundreds. Chris Allaire [00:15:46]: We don't force close people. And I think that's one of the things that they understand. They look at people as salespeople. It doesn't work that way. We have your best interest in heart because the candidate wants the job. You want to hire them. We need to do what we need to do to get this thing filled. Okay. Chris Allaire [00:16:02]: I'm pretty straightforward. I think the other thing is this is I have a team of people. It's like you can tell that everyone works for me. We know what we're doing. I think when you want to argue with us, I'm not going to argue. I'm not interested in this. If you listen to me, it's going to get done. You don't have to listen to me. Chris Allaire [00:16:15]: You can do whatever you so, but don't call me in a week from now and say, hey, I want to hire Kortney. And I'm like, no, Sherry took a job and then get mad at me. That's not my fault. I told you last week, you didn't listen. Kortney Harmon [00:16:26]: Transparency is huge in our business. So I love that we have that. Chris Allaire [00:16:31]: In what we do. We're transparent with everything. I don't make up information. If they got something going on, I'm let you know. If they don't have anything going on, I'm going to let you know. I'm like, hey, listen, the good thing is they're early stage in process. So you're not in a hurry. Don't sweat it. Chris Allaire [00:16:44]: You got a couple of interviews lined up. Go through a couple of interviews, check them out. But I'll do the best I can. But if you like this person, let's keep them in process. Let's keep them warm. I can't keep them warm. You have to keep them warm. Kortney Harmon [00:16:55]: Amazing. I love that. I think that's one of the challenges in our industry in general is just having that consultation. So taking the next step to the next question, what are some structural changes you've made internally to help your teams better source and recruit top it candidates today compared to just a few years ago? Chris Allaire [00:17:13]: I got to be honest with nothing crazy. I think the biggest thing that we've realized is to take full advantage of the systems that we have. And a good example of this, honestly, is not to plug it, but crelate. I haven't in business in a long time. I was a crelate infant user. We've been using the system since 2014. You guys didn't have a lot of customers then. I'm a fan of one of these people who says the quality in your database outlasts the quantity of your database. Chris Allaire [00:17:44]: I don't need a database of two and a half million people. I don't need to put 10,000 people a month in it. I don't brag about how big my database is. One of the things we do do is brag about the quality and the integrity of the information in our database. Our candidates are up to date. We know where they're working, we know what they're doing. We follow their career so we're not constantly flooding the pipeline of new. It's one of these things like what you have works. Chris Allaire [00:18:11]: It's been working. You've got 140 or 200,000 people in it. I would rather have 100,000 quality connections that we know where they are, we know what they're doing, how much money they're making, what they're looking for, what the next step in their career is, et cetera, versus two and a half million of three letter acronyms on a resume that you have no idea what they're doing. And that's what candidates complain about. They put net on their resume from a job they had ten years ago, and they're getting pitched net jobs. They're like, I'm not a net engineer, and I know that. I know what you do. I know where you're working, and then that's the difference. Chris Allaire [00:18:47]: So I home in on quality. I tell people, like, listen, you don't need a network of 150,000 people. You need a network of like 200, maybe even less than that. And if you own your network, you're going to do amazing things, because that's what people want. Realistically speaking, agency staffing is the ultimate game of who do you know? I'm looking for a job. Who do you know that wants to hire me? I have to comb through 150,000 contacts to figure that out. That doesn't do anybody any good. But if a client calls me and they're like, hey, Chris, I need to hire two senior level data scientists that do X, Y and Z. Chris Allaire [00:19:19]: I need to know in my Rolodex, if you will, who to call right now. And we can do that because we're on top of the information. So honestly, I don't think I've done anything that's like all these brand new systems and AI this, and I'm like, track, have your data, have a quality, have integrity to it, stay on top of it. Kortney Harmon [00:19:39]: You have amazing foundational processes. It sounds like there's no so many offices that I've worked with in the past. It's like, well, we have a job, we're going to go post, or, hey, we have a lead, we're going to go see what we can find out. And they're not relying on the data in their database. They're paying for these job boards to get all these candidates, but then they never follow back up with them. And then guess what? They're still paying for that same candidate that they found five months ago, again, because they didn't look at their database first. Number one problem in our industry, I. Chris Allaire [00:20:04]: Would agree with you. I mean, we run ads, we do all that type of stuff, but a lot of it's like, the reason why we do, I'll be honest, is we want to attract new people because we don't know really kind of who's out there, who's looking around, maybe someone who we've known for four years all of a sudden is like, oh, guys, saw your ad. We'd love to reach out again. But a lot of it's like you have to keep the logo in front of people. You have to keep face to people just to make sure that you're kind of out there in front. But let's just put it way, as long as I've been doing this, you learn a lot of things. And I've worked for companies that had, like, these massive databases, or I had no databases, and I learned, like, doesn't matter. It's just numbers on paper. Chris Allaire [00:20:36]: I'm like, unless you own your network, you're in trouble. You're going to struggle, you're going to be reactive all the time. And in this business, you can do okay, but you're not going to do great. Kortney Harmon [00:20:48]: I love it. Okay, we just talked about the recruiting side. I love where you stand today. I'm going to switch gears so what are some strategies or campaigns or maybe even channels that you've used to change or boost your it sales in the down market that we're seeing today? Chris Allaire [00:21:05]: I wish I had, like, a secret sauce, but honestly, it's 100% fortifying your relationships. We have a philosophy in the company. It's pretty simple. It's find something you're good at and you do it better than anybody else. Now, because we're also segmented in teams and technologies and our verticals, you're networking with the same types of people or the same people pretty much all the time. For the most part. In downtimes, that's when you fortify your relationships. They want to know that you're there for them when you need them. Chris Allaire [00:21:36]: They want to know they're there for them when they need you. They want to know you're there for them. Not when, just like, times are great, but then when the times are kind of tough and they're struggling as much as you are, and when you're in there, when you're always there and you're always checking in and you're always saying hi, and you're always having some type of value added to them, then they're like, you know what? I need to hire two consultants, Chris. I was like, yeah, listen, we can help you out with that. What are you guys looking for? And even if they're outside of our market center, we know how to deliver for them. But also, most of the time, they're not going to be working with anybody else because of the relationship. So the way that we've been able to kind of keep our sales numbers up and really kind of keep the company driven is, I just say, it's like you've got relationships with people. Now is the time you own them. Chris Allaire [00:22:15]: This is the time you're in front of people more than ever. Find the people that you want to be in business with and home in on that. And I don't care who they are, I don't care what they're doing, I don't care where they're working. But you need to know, have something in common and build that relationship with them. Be a real human being, for the love of God. That's the other thing, to add value. I don't think you're just constantly selling something. The old school mentality is everyone wants to buy something, but no one wants to be sold to sometimes just add some value. Chris Allaire [00:22:40]: If you read about a new technology, if I read about securities all over the space right now, right? And I got a lot of people that I know that are chief product officers, ctos in the security space. So what am I doing? I'm asking them like, hey, I was just reading this crazy article about the cloud and soft two compliance. What are you guys doing about that? And it's like, wow, Chris, that's a really good question. We've been thinking about it. We've been talking about it. And so then they start to engage with me about what's going on. And then what happens? Then they're referring me to somebody else. Hey, listen, I got your name from so and so because we need to hire a socktube Infosec compliance person. Chris Allaire [00:23:12]: You seem to be having a lot of knowledge in the area by knowing your trait and knowing your business and knowing your relationships and really staying honed in on understanding that this is what I do. It's not a hobby, and I genuinely like it. People will attract themselves to you. And when they go to hire, which they are still, they will call you, they're going to say, like, listen, I read an article you put out there. I saw something you put out there. I got your name from so and so. Yeah, we got to hire two consultants. How quickly can you turn these around for us? And that's what we've been able to do. Kortney Harmon [00:23:47]: I love that. Not that you shouldn't or people shouldn't. So many people grasp onto AI. Well, they can go touch base with these people when I don't have time to. In reality, that's a different mindset. It's quantity versus quality. And what you've preached to me already is vice versa. It's not about doing more. Kortney Harmon [00:24:04]: It's about making those foundations stronger that you have because that's paying dividends and your network is your net worth. Chris Allaire [00:24:12]: That's the way to put it, right. If you do better, you will do more. Kortney Harmon [00:24:16]: Yeah, it's about engagement. So I love that. So obviously, so many offices are on this KPI hamster wheel. Like, do more, do more. Do your 100 calls a day. It's not about call time or whatever. So I'm going to switch gears and I want to talk about KPIs. So I want to talk about what critical KPIs and metrics do you track regularly to measure or monitor and optimize your end to end recruiting process with your sales and recruiting teams? Because we talked about not doing more. Kortney Harmon [00:24:44]: But what do you measure? Chris Allaire [00:24:45]: I love this, by the way, because I will shock the world with this one. I measure one KPI. Number of interviews. Kortney Harmon [00:24:56]: Number of interviews. Chris Allaire [00:24:58]: It is the only KPI we track. Kortney Harmon [00:25:01]: That's very interesting. Chris Allaire [00:25:02]: The only way someone's going to get a job is by interviewing. The only way someone's going to hire. Kortney Harmon [00:25:07]: Someone is by interviewing the first interview or all interviews, just number of interviews. Chris Allaire [00:25:12]: Now, the reason why I track that number is it is the only common denominator on how things get done. Okay? If they've got to interview somebody five times, we're going to do the best we can to speed that up. That's what has to happen. If they have to interview 15 people, it has to happen. But it's not about submitting 15 resumes. It's not about making 100 cold calls. It's not about talking to 35 people. It's not about screening 15 candidates. Chris Allaire [00:25:38]: None of those things are going to get job filled. The only thing that has to happen to get someone hired is an interview has to occur. A hiring manager needs to meet a candidate looking for a job when they like each other, someone gets hired. If they don't interview, no one gets hired. So all the other numbers as long as I've been in this business that you want to pump at me are crap. And I don't care about any of them because I've had friends of mine that work for staffing firms, and I'm not even going to, let's just put it this way. I've been on the job, I've been called by them, and I was like, dude, I can't talk right now. What are you doing? They're like, no, you can put me on hold. Chris Allaire [00:26:18]: I just got to get my phone minutes up. I'm like, you have to what? I'm like, what did you just say to me? They're like, yeah, I have to be on the phone for 2 hours a day. So just put me on hold for like 15 minutes. I'll be fine. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Or they have to get their connect numbers up so they call their own voicemail or other places so it'll track that a connect has happened. Right? All these stupid KPIs that people want to track are pointless because none of those things get jobs filled. The only thing that gets jobs filled are interviews. Chris Allaire [00:26:54]: Nobody has looked at a resume and said, this resume is Phenomenal. Make this resume an offer of $200,000. Okay? You got to interview the person. Oh, yeah, you're right. And what happens? You get a resume. You're like, this resume is interesting. Let's interview the candidate. Chris, the job sounds pretty cool. Chris Allaire [00:27:11]: Love to interview for the job. Two people talk they love each other. Someone gets hired. People hire people. In order for someone to hire another human being, they have to meet each other. So one KPI interviews will do the most amount of business. Kortney Harmon [00:27:26]: Well. And if your team's not getting interviews, it's probably what they're saying. You can go critique that and go work through that one thing probably more efficiently than, well, what voicemail are you leaving? And what this are you leaving? I mean, it all adds up, but it's a very interesting perspective. Do you think that applies only to it, or do you think it applies across the board in this? Chris Allaire [00:27:44]: Personally, I think it applies across the board. Now, there's a lot of things that you can break down as far as why aren't people interviewing? That's the end of the day. That's really what matters. If you're not getting any interviews set up, you're like, okay, great, now let's go back and revisit your job order. Let's take a look at your job order. Do you still understand what they're looking for? Is the job still open? Are you talking to the right person? Are you sending qualified candidates? Right. The difference about that, you can't track that stuff because that's all human intelligence. There's no KPI that's going to track your job order taking skills. Chris Allaire [00:28:10]: I take job orders very specifically. I teach all my team how to take job orders very specifically. And we take phenomenal job orders, which is why we get candidates in front of people. Our submittal rates are low. I'm not going to lie. Our interview rates to submittal rates are high. That's the number I look at. And our submitted interview rates are typically one to one, maybe two to one the most. Chris Allaire [00:28:30]: But my career, my submitted interview rate is typically like 1.1, which means every candidate I send will get an interview for the job. Well, that's because I know what I'm doing and I follow up and I'm like, hey, listen, just submitted a candidate over to you. Her name is Kortney. Resume is in your inbox. But me tell you about their background. Let me tell you what they're doing. She's available tomorrow afternoon for an interview. How's it sound? I can set this up for you. Chris Allaire [00:28:50]: 99% of the time. It's like, yeah, Chris, sounds great. Set it up. And then they interview the person. They're like, she's awesome. We love her. I'm like, of course you do, but it's interviewers. Kortney Harmon [00:28:58]: I love your perspective and your insights on that. So thanks for sharing that. All right, hot topic of the last year. How has advanced technology like AI, new screening, new skill testing tools impacted and or improved your ability to efficiently match talent with client needs? Chris Allaire [00:29:19]: It hasn't. Kortney Harmon [00:29:21]: Love that. Chris Allaire [00:29:22]: I am not the buyer. I love it. I've been doing this for too long. Everyone's like, oh, ad is going to replace humans. No, it's not. It's going to replace interviews. No, it's not. It's a great tool to help you organize on some things. Chris Allaire [00:29:37]: I play around a lot with chat TPT. I think it's really cool. It's a lot of fun. It really is. You can cut and paste someone's resume and put inside of there and can tell you a little bit about their background. But at the end of the day, you still have to talk to somebody because you won't really know what they do, what they want to do, how they did it. You have no idea if they have any idea what the heck they're talking about. AI is not going to take a look at a resume or someone's background or your profile and be like, she's an expert at this. Chris Allaire [00:30:00]: It can give you an idea. It's literally just going to read on paper exactly what you already know. And she's like, Kortney has five years experience with this and you're like, that's neat. Now, if you know how to read a resume, you've already done that. All it's done is speed things up a little bit for you. The automated processes. I've always loved not to be weird, we've had that for years. But we've never called it AI or machine learning. Chris Allaire [00:30:21]: We've called it templates or. No, we'd never had a machine learning algorithm. We had a Boolean search, right? Everything changes names. It was financial software is now fintech. We're a financial software company. We're not a financial software company, we're a fintech company. So anyways, it's like all these things have always been around for a long time. If you know how to use them for the good you're going to do. Chris Allaire [00:30:40]: Okay, the lead generation stuff is interesting. I'm still playing around with those types of things. I haven't seen anything that's earth shattering that I'm like, wow, this is going to change the landscape of everything you do. If you're organized and you're on top of your information and you build a quality business, you're going to do fine. I get hit by AI emails all day long. I know it's weird, but I've responded to some of them like, wow, this looks really interesting. Send me the demo or get back to me and let me know. Let's set up a time to talk. Chris Allaire [00:31:06]: What's hysterical is I don't hear a response from them. Good job using your AI to generate leads and not generate a sale. So, I don't know. I mean, I've been doing this for a long time. A long time ago, there was a monster and dice came out, and monster and dice said, we're going to replace recruiters because all these companies are never going to use a recruiting firm again because we have all the resumes. And this is a true story. 1999, the monster board was born. It was built by a company called TMP Worldwide. Chris Allaire [00:31:34]: I placed people at TMP Worldwide, the monster board, building it with people that I scraped off of the monster board. That is a true story. Back in 1999. So every time I've seen a technology come out to try to replace people, it's never worked. At the end of the day, tech is a great tool to help you do your job, to help keep you organized, to help keep you straightforward. I don't want to do it right now because she's going to freak out, but I talk to Siri all day long. Siri puts stuff in my calendar. She lets me know where I'm going. Chris Allaire [00:32:06]: I like it for those types of things, but if you think it's going to change the landscape, I'm like, wow. From now on, AI is going to interview all my candidates. Hey, AI, tell me about diversity. Hey, AI, tell me about emotion. Hey, AI, tell me about when someone goes on a tangent about things they really know about. Let me know you picked up on that, because that's how you hire people, is you listen for things that are between the lines. Because when someone says something, you're like, well, hold on a second. What did you just say? Go back to that. Chris Allaire [00:32:35]: And then that's when you start to interview and you're like, this person's smart. I want this person. What do we do? AI is not going to pick up on that. Kortney Harmon [00:32:41]: No. Chris Allaire [00:32:42]: You may want to argue with me, and I appreciate that, but I love. Kortney Harmon [00:32:45]: It, and I don't think you're wrong. I found one thing, that it is much better than I am. And whenever I trained, people didn't do very well. But it's with sourcing. You mentioned bullying code. I can give it a job order and ask it to create a bullying code that it does way better than I could ever do. But that's about the best thing that I found. I mean, there are some great tools. Kortney Harmon [00:33:02]: Yes, it does things faster, but I am 100% with you on the human element, and I love that that's your opinion, because it's a distraction for a lot of organizations to say, well, it's going to solve my problem. Well, if you didn't have a process to begin with, how can you automate it? You have to go back to square one and create your own foundational issues and fix them before you can even go any further in this process. Chris Allaire [00:33:23]: The other question is this. I think you ever talked to a really senior level engineer, someone who's like architect, serious stuff. Tell them to interview with an AI robot and see what they say to you. Just try that out and see what they say. You want to take somebody out of process quickly, go ahead and have them do that. Yeah, they will not do it. You can find somebody else for that. I'm not talking to some robot. Chris Allaire [00:33:45]: Read my resume and we'll have an interview. You want to talk? I'll show you how to solve your problems. Kortney Harmon [00:33:49]: I love it. Okay, so might play into the next question. What are some of the biggest mistakes you see companies making during the it recruiting and hiring process? Chris Allaire [00:34:00]: We talked about the unrealistic expectations, but once the process starts, I think the biggest thing is it's like lack of follow up, lack of feedback. It's annoying. Give feedback. There's companies that I've seen, they're like, oh, we don't give feedback. Well, never mind then. Don't worry about it. I'm not going to help you. Candidates want feedback. Chris Allaire [00:34:16]: Clients want feedback. Are you interested in this person? Yes, I am. Why? What did you like about that person? Right? No different than if you're hiring somebody. Hey, listen, you just interviewed Kortney. She loves the job. She loves this. She loves this, she loves this, she loves this. As an employer, you want that feedback. Chris Allaire [00:34:32]: So you know what? Number one, give feedback. It's critical to getting the job done. Number two, momentum. Keep the momentum going. All right, I know you have people to interview. I get it. However, if the first person out of the ten people you need to interview is the person you're like, oh, my God, I love this person. Keep them in process. Chris Allaire [00:34:52]: Let them know. By the way, I have a bunch of interviews lined up, but, man, love this conversation. I can't hire you until I go through all these interviews. I don't know what's going to happen. But do you mind coming back one more time? Do you mind setting up another conversation? Just something casual so we can keep the fire going, okay? Don't turn around and call your recruiter and be like, chris, go keep this guy warm for me. I'm like, what are you talking about? Doesn't work that way. All right, so momentum, feedback, and honestly make an offer that someone's going to accept. Don't stop messing around with that stuff. Chris Allaire [00:35:25]: Make an offer that someone's going to accept. Understand what they're looking for, what their motivation is, and if you see them, you like them, hire them. Okay? We're all going to make mistakes when it comes to hiring. Nobody's got this figured out, all right? You have no idea what you're hiring until they start. Understand it. Every hire you're ever going to make is a risk. We all know that. I was a risk, you were a risk. Chris Allaire [00:35:49]: We're all risky, right? Until they start, you really have no idea what their untapped potential is. So if you see it and you like it and you believe in it, just hire them and take a risk. And if it doesn't work, no harm, no foul. If it does, then you're a genius. So feedback, momentum, see them like them, hire them, make an offer that someone's going to accept. Kortney Harmon [00:36:10]: All right, flip side of that coin, how do you teach other staffing firms or staffing and recruiting firms like yours to have that conversation? Because those are challenges in other IT firms as well. So how do you help them overcome those same challenges that you are facing and you're preaching to your clients. Chris Allaire [00:36:26]: Don't email. Talk to them. Get off the computer, get on the phone. Business is done on the phone. Business is done in real time. Business is done in human interaction and conversations. If you think you're going to negotiate or write in all caps. I wrote in all capitals. Chris Allaire [00:36:42]: I used an emoji. They get it. I'm sorry. They didn't do anything. It's black and white. It doesn't do anything. They're not interested. Pick up the phone, call somebody. Chris Allaire [00:36:50]: Get some emotion. Stand behind your belief system and create. You're in sales. Get excited, sell something, right? So get on the phone, get off the computer, join real people. Massive negotiations aren't done on a text message. Kortney Harmon [00:37:07]: And that's nothing new. That is something that has been happening for years. And the people that pick up the phone are the ones that are succeeding, Max. Chris Allaire [00:37:13]: And according to a lot of people, it's brand new. I'm like, listen, I'm not that old. I love it. Kortney Harmon [00:37:22]: Okay, we haven't talked about this yet, but how has the rise of the gig economy and contract hiring really impacted the it landscape overall. Chris Allaire [00:37:30]: I think it's awesome the day and age of these really senior level, high level people. I think what you got to deal with is understand that they want to contract. It's not nothing to do with money. Yeah, the money is great and everything as well. Don't get me wrong. But they also know that their life expectancy at an organization is just not very long. Right? A lot of times what you're talking to is like if you're a really senior level architect, you're going to come, then you're going to build all your, you're going to set up architecture across the board. Problem is, after the architecture set up, then what are you going to do? So if now if that person is a consultant or a contractor, you have way more flexibility with, they can do what they want to do, how they're going to do it, and then they're done and they're like, listen, I'm happy to be here. Chris Allaire [00:38:12]: You have any idea how many senior level candidates I talked to that were laid off? And they're like, I'm so sick of this, Chris. All I do is rearchitect the company's entire digital strategy and then I think I'm this game player and I think I'm this person and they feed me all the lines I need to hear. And what happens? I'm laid off just like that. This is ridiculous. I give them my heart and my soul into this organization just to be laid off like that. But I'm done with this crap. I'm not doing this anymore. Right. Chris Allaire [00:38:39]: So the consulting world, I think the contract world, honestly, I love it. I think it's great. I think if organizations really want to hire some really smart people, it comes out, you've got a better budget, it sounds more expensive, but it's not because you're not stuck with w two income, you're not stuck with 401 ks, you're not stuck with benefits, you're not stuck with taxes from a taxable standpoint, I'm a CPA, but you get a better tax deduction from it. I have contractors that work for me and I love it. I think it's great. So personally, I think there's a place for the full time employee, the w two salary benefits employee. I think the younger generation coming into organizations, I think that's a great space for them. In the tech landscape, your life expectancy at a job is a year and a half, maybe two years. Chris Allaire [00:39:25]: So if you're thinking about a year to year and a half out. Maybe you're going to have some people that are going to stick around for a long time, but for the most part, you're looking at 18 months to 24 months the most. So hire a contractor. A lot less headaches, a lot quicker. Kortney Harmon [00:39:37]: Process, and if they want, they can keep that person on. I had a contractor that was on for seven years while I was working. Chris Allaire [00:39:43]: We have contractors that have for going on seven, eight years now. They're fully embedded. And actually if you ask the organization, they don't have no idea that that person is a contractor. They have no idea. They're like, oh, we always thought it was a full time employee because he's nine to five, et cetera, et cetera. So who cares? Kortney Harmon [00:39:56]: You're getting a better return on him working there for such. Chris Allaire [00:39:59]: It's not only for cost, but I think it's the candidates in general. The candidates like it more. There are more things that are set up these days for 1099 or LLC or corporate corp consultants. I think there's a lot more strength in the marketplace when it comes to peos and benefits and stuff like that. So it's not like it used to be. You're in charge of your own taxes. I think there's a lot of benefits for consulting. But not only that, from a company standpoint, from client standpoint, you have a lot more options. Chris Allaire [00:40:24]: You can go, go, you can go to Argentina, you can go to Brazil, you can go to Mexico, you can go to Alatan. Right? You get nearshore, you get offshore. You can hire people in Costa Rica that are not a 1099, they're 1098. Now you're hiring people for sixty cents on the dollar. So you've got a lot more options when you open up yourself to think outside the box on the way things are done. And a lot of people think that contractors aren't dedicated. Quite the opposite. Kortney Harmon [00:40:51]: I love it. Great insights. I love your perspective. I only have two more questions for you, Chris, so I promise I won't keep you. I think I could ask you questions for a longer time than, and I talk too much. No, I love your perspective. So I'm going to switch this to you internally with your office. If you could improve one aspect of your current IT recruiting operations model to enhance performance, what would it be and why? Chris Allaire [00:41:14]: If I can improve one model operations wise. So I've just gone over this actually moving into 2024. My biggest thing is I look at skills systems, organization and follow through. So what? I look at everybody and I say, number one, and I know, this isn't like it's a little bit more of a science and an art kind of combined, because it's not as easy as saying putting operations on paper systems are wise. Skill set. Number one thing is skill set. Understand what you're good at and capitalize on it. And I think what happens a lot of times is you get people that are like, oh, if your skill is an eight, but you have another skill, it's a two. Chris Allaire [00:41:51]: Let's focus on the two and get it to a five. I disagree with that. I say let's take your eight and get it to a nine. Let's take your seven and get it to a ten. Find something you're good at and do it better than anybody else. Know the position you play and become the best at that position. So know your skill set, know what you're best at, know how you can capitalize on it, and home in on that. Don't home in on the other crap that you don't find someone else that can do that stuff for you. Chris Allaire [00:42:14]: I need to work on this, work on that later. Buy a book. In the interim, own your skills system. We have three major systems that we use from a recruiting CRM ATS. Call it what you will. One is create. Are we fully utilizing the system? Do we know everything there is to know about the system? Are we bending the frame on the system? Right. And that's what I say is kind of the top gun mentality is like, are you pushing it to the limits? Do you understand its full capabilities and are we taking advantage of it? Are we in touch with the right people at the organization to understand how we can take advantage of it? So instead of adding more kind of mulch to the pile, if you will, are you really getting the best out of your garden that you currently have? And I don't care what that system is, I'm not going to plug other systems. Chris Allaire [00:43:05]: I'll plug relay because I love it. That's one of them that I'm looking at right now when I have another call with my person tomorrow is how do we fully take advantage of more opportunities within the systems that we have? So know your skills, know your systems, organization. Everybody can be more organized, right? And there's 1000 different techniques that are out there, but find something that works for you and own it. Get more organized. And I'm talking get off paper. If you're on paper, get a filing system. If you're a filing cabinet type person, do it. I hate postit notes. Chris Allaire [00:43:37]: When we add an office, there were no postit notes in the office. If you tried to come in my office to post it notes, I was not happy. No posted notes allowed. My. Because then you guys just see people that post a notes over the place. I'm like, what are you doing with all this crap? If you're going to write it down, follow through on it. It's just the follow through part. And do it, and then at the end of the day, rip it off, throw it out, start a new one. Chris Allaire [00:43:57]: All right. So your organizational techniques have to be the best in business. And the people that I know that are the insane high performers aren't. They're better at their job, don't get me wrong, but they have a better skill set. They utilize the systems to the full advantage. They are insanely organized, and they follow through on every single thing they do. No stone is left on the table. And I mean, like, calendars scheduled to the minute, and a lot of people, they'll put something on their calendar from ten to 1030. Chris Allaire [00:44:34]: People I'm talking about are putting stuff on their calendar from 1015 to 1040. I do that like, I'll call you at 1015. They're like, I'm open to 1030. I was like, I'm not open to 1030. I got 15 minutes. At 1015. We can squeeze it in. So those are my four things right now that we're diving in on. Chris Allaire [00:44:52]: Skills, systems, organization, follow through, and that. Kortney Harmon [00:44:55]: Organization goes into your system. Based on what I'm hearing from you and how frequently you stay in touch with your people, nothing gets lost. That speaks for itself. So I love it. I only have one more question, Chris, and it comes fresh off of yesterday. I just did a workshop yesterday for our full desk experience, and we talked about goals and goal setting, and you talked about 2024. So it's really top of mind here. What are your goals for your organization next year? What do you guys need to do better with? Where do you need to go? What are you focusing on for 2024? Chris Allaire [00:45:24]: 2024 for us, is going to be the year of the rebuild, and I think it's a great opportunity. So what I'm talking to everybody about right now is we're sitting on an opportunity to do something better than what we did before. And everyone says that if I knew then what I know now, we're sitting on an opportunity to know then what we know now. And if I knew, what would you do differently? But you got an opportunity to do that. So a lot of things we're talking about is like, are your tier one connections organized? Are your tier two connections organized for whatever reason, you decide to tier them based on results or whatever it is, that's up to you. But are your tiered connections organized? So my goals for everybody is talking into this thing is I want people to be highly organized. I want people to understand their relationships with the people that they do business with and own those relationships. I want people to do more business with the clients that we currently have. Chris Allaire [00:46:24]: We have over 200 and something paying clients, and most of them are the Fortune 502, Fortune tens, a number of fortune one hundred s. More isn't always better. Smarter is better. Quality is better. Are we really doing the amount of business that we could be with the clients that we have? And we have a handful of clients that we do a tremendous amount of business with, but I have another handful of clients that I'm like, how are we only doing this much business with that? We've moved somebody into the role of the CX, so the client experience, the customer experience manager, and so we're going to have somebody myself. Actually, I'm going to be doing a lot of this as well, but it's really like going into and diving into the client experience, setting up milestones. How are we doing? What are we doing for you? How can we do better? How can you guys do better? How can we get more jobs filled? How can we get the candidates through the process quicker? How can you get more offers accepted? Are we doing what you need from us in order to deliver for you, and are you doing your part to make sure that things are moving quickly? Because this is the reason why we're engaging with each other, is to get jobs filled. It's all fun and games. Chris Allaire [00:47:32]: We love coffee and let's have some beers after work. Yeah, but at the end of the day, you want your jobs filled and we want to fill your jobs. So are we doing it to the best method possible? So putting somebody in the client experience, dedicated role to our tier one clients is going to be a critical kind of part to us doing better with the clients that we currently have from a goal standpoint. I've got numbers written down on paper, and I've got this many placements and this, that and the other. But I'm also a fan of, like, if you do things correctly, rewards will happen. I'm kind of one of those guys, like, if you build it, they will come type of thing. And that's the way I've structured my company and I really believe in that. It's one of those, like no, we're going to do all these things better than everybody else. Chris Allaire [00:48:16]: Business, the right business will be there for us because people will know and when then they engage with our services, they're like, yeah, you guys get it. And then that's the feedback that I've gotten my entire career. But the ten years of verity has been like, yeah, you guys, just. The best feedback I got was from a CTO, let's just put it this way, at a fortune ten financial company. And he said working with you was like working with the major leagues. He's like, I've worked with other agencies, but he's like far off minor league systems. You guys are a major league player. If I know something's going to get done, I give it to you and it gets done. Chris Allaire [00:48:52]: It's such a pleasure. I was like, wow. Thank you. It's nice to hear it. So own the process. Highly organized. Own your clients. Treat them like gold. Chris Allaire [00:49:03]: Don't look for more, look for better. Be smarter with your time. You're going to kill your goals. You're going to crush your goals. I fully anticipate next year. A lot of people talk about Q three next year. I'm thinking it's going to come earlier than that, mostly because the people I'm talking to, the dam is going to break when it breaks. The question is going to be, are you prepared for it? And I think we are prepared for it. Chris Allaire [00:49:24]: That's the big thing we're working on right now is like when this thing hits and you get the calls that you know you're going to get, do you have your systems, your organization and are you set up in place to go? You know what, I'm on it. So I think something else is going to be a lot of different ideas. But those are the big goals we have are increased process, better client management, better client experience and better team organization, better team communication. Kortney Harmon [00:49:52]: Those are great goals. Those are very wise because you're right, the dam is going to break. Are you ready for that? Because people always talk about growth and down markets. This is where growth comes from, is the preparation for the major league game. I mean, you had me sold out all your baseball references. I feel like I need to go watch some baseball. But yes, you are absolutely right. It's going to happen. Kortney Harmon [00:50:12]: So I'm very excited. I'm very excited to keep going. I hope you're right on earlier than Q three. Chris Allaire [00:50:18]: Me too. Kortney Harmon [00:50:19]: It's going to be a fun year. Chris Allaire [00:50:20]: And obviously, like anything else, we have like a bunch of systems that we've built this year that are going to launch, a couple of them are going to launch this week. We're going to launch them into 2024 just to stay on top of some things, some automated marketing, some crap like that. But it's really about against. I'm still homed in on the client experience, the candidate experience, because if you do it right the first time, you don't have to do it again. Because doing it the second time is hard. Building is hard, rebuilding is harder. So we've got a great foundation we're sitting on right now. We've done everything correctly over the last ten years. Chris Allaire [00:50:54]: Wife says like the hurricane came through, hurricane came through, ripped the roof off, took most of the walls down. We can rebuild. That foundation is great. Foundation is steady, sturdy. It's rock solid. There's no cracks. Didn't lose anybody voluntarily. We're going with a rock solid core of people that are ready to do this thing. Chris Allaire [00:51:13]: So it's going to be fun. Kortney Harmon [00:51:14]: It'll be exciting. I'm excited to continue to watch Chris, thank you so much for joining us today. I loved your insights. As we wrap up this conversation with Chris, I just want to express my immense gratitude for his time and expertise. He's provided you with a wealth of information and knowledge, from navigating the ever changing tech landscape to innovative strategies or non innovative, for the fact that where you need to focus going into 2024, how to attract, retain and I'm sure I know you took away some valuable insights and actionable takeaways. If you want to learn more about Chris and his work at averity, be sure to check out his LinkedIn profile in the link that we'll provide in the show notes. And remember, hopefully the full disk experience is your one stop shop for all staffing and recruiting information. So stay tuned for more episodes with industry leaders. Kortney Harmon [00:52:04]: And don't forget to share your thoughts and questions with us on social media. Leave us ratings interviews. We'd love to hear more from you. Have a wonderful day. I'm Kortney Harmon with Crit. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Industry Spotlight, a new series from the full desk experience. New episodes will be dropping monthly. Be sure you're subscribed to our podcast so you can catch the next industry Spotlight episode and all episodes of the full desk experience here or wherever you listen.