Latest / Echoes & Edges / Survival Adaptations Are Not Your Identity with Aundi Kolber

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Survival Adaptations Are Not Your Identity with Aundi Kolber · Echoes & Edges

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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Patria. If you've been listening to this podcast
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Speaker 1: to others. To you, the person thinking about checking this out,
1:52
Speaker 1: you are not alone in this reach out. There is
1:56
Speaker 1: a way forward. Welcome back to Echoes and Edges, the
2:10
Speaker 1: Broken and Beautiful Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Patria,
2:14
Speaker 1: the host for Echoes and Edges and the founder of
2:17
Speaker 1: the Broken and Beautiful Collective. We are a group of
2:21
Speaker 1: people on the hunt for beauty, meaning, and transformation, and
2:25
Speaker 1: I hope that this offers a little bit of that
2:28
Speaker 1: into your world. Let's jump back into the conversation, talk
2:33
Speaker 1: or share your thoughts about the differences between like a
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Speaker 1: survival adaptation and identity and how how do we begin
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Speaker 1: to differentiate those things because survival adaptation feels so much
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Speaker 1: like identity at least initially.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, I mean certainly there's a lot.
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Speaker 3: There's like an a whole spectrum is what I think about,
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Speaker 3: you know, And I think for folks who have experienced
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Speaker 3: I would say good enough parenting through childhood, so there's
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Speaker 3: enough responsiveness, enough attunement, they're going to have a greater
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Speaker 3: chance of potentially developing a secure attachment. Now that doesn't
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Speaker 3: mean other things can't be influenced or you know, like
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Speaker 3: there's there's a lot of different things that can come
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Speaker 3: with that, but certainly our childhood and some of those
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Speaker 3: close relationships can make a huge difference in that. For
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Speaker 3: other folks who've you know, maybe particularly in childhood trauma,
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Speaker 3: have you know, developed insecure attachments. And I won't go
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Speaker 3: into all the different parts of insecure attachments, but essentially
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Speaker 3: there's three others besides secure attachment, and they literally shift
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Speaker 3: kind of based off of different categories with what we're experiencing,
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Speaker 3: usually from our caregivers, though certainly other systems can make impacts.
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Speaker 3: And this matters in part because we sort of come
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Speaker 3: to know ourselves first through relationship, like before a child
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Speaker 3: is aware of like I have a self, we are
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Speaker 3: in many ways first experienced through the eyes of our caregiver.
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Speaker 3: It's like the way our caregivers are with us is
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Speaker 3: beginning to form the internal template plates. Not just about
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Speaker 3: our relationships outside of us, and not just about God,
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Speaker 3: what about ourselves? Yeah, and so these templates live in us,
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Speaker 3: and in many ways, the goal of a healthy enough childhood,
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Speaker 3: a good enough childhood is that in adulthood we sort
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Speaker 3: of internalize a little bit of like a good enough
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Speaker 3: parent too, Like we have a little bit and it
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Speaker 3: probably mirrors, it often mirrors some of the experiences we've
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Speaker 3: had in childhood where we've maybe been cared for when
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Speaker 3: we are in pain. So that creates sort of a
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Speaker 3: mirroring in our own body. Oh, when I'm hurting, I
5:25
Speaker 3: deserve care. When I'm hungry, I deserve food. When I
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Speaker 3: feel lonely, I deserve companionship. Right, you can see how
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Speaker 3: it literally creates this mirrored experience, but instead of just
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Speaker 3: experiencing it outside of ourselves, because certainly in adulthood we
5:43
Speaker 3: need relationships too, it's just that we have more of
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Speaker 3: a system inside of us that's more differentiated, and we
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Speaker 3: sort of carry this around with us. And so when
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Speaker 3: we're talking about survival adaptations, part of this is many
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Speaker 3: ways is about the rupture to the creation of our
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Speaker 3: own internalized secure base and when we don't have that oftentimes,
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Speaker 3: and obviously not all trauma, there's such a big category here,
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Speaker 3: but oftentimes relational trauma, especially in childhood, is at the
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Speaker 3: root of these responses, these adaptations, these long term.
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Speaker 2: Things that start to look like personality and so part
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Speaker 2: of the.
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Speaker 3: Work and in many ways, like this is where Triceofter
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Speaker 3: really like is my attempt to sort of give a framework.
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Speaker 3: This is a framework to like not just this one
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Speaker 3: time experience, but we're working with our bodies to begin
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Speaker 3: to listen to when we are maybe acting outside of
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Speaker 3: what's really congruent, and that's not always going to seem
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Speaker 3: immediately obvious. It takes time and practice. Often if we
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Speaker 3: are one of the people who's had to adapt by
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Speaker 3: having lots of survival adaptations, which is part of my story,
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Speaker 3: that we actually have to have people around us providing
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Speaker 3: some safety and coregulation, because what that does is it
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Speaker 3: starts to rewrite the templates.
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Speaker 2: That we carry to help us repair.
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Speaker 3: So that then we can actually offer that also to ourselves.
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Speaker 3: And so really all of this is like almost like
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Speaker 3: the things that happened before we address the question of
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Speaker 3: what you're saying, like, how do we parse out is
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Speaker 3: this survival or is this personality? And the other thing
8:14
Speaker 3: that I will just name because we've kind of talked
8:17
Speaker 3: around this but haven't named it is something like working
8:20
Speaker 3: with our nervous system, and your listeners might already be familiar,
8:24
Speaker 3: but with something I like to use the window of
8:26
Speaker 3: tolerance as a framework, and I use that quite a
8:30
Speaker 3: bit in Trace Softer that when we've experienced chronic disturbances,
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Speaker 3: chronic unresolved, overwhelming experiences in our body, something called our
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Speaker 3: window of tolerance, which is our range of arousal in
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Speaker 3: which we can feel our feelings and we can feel
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Speaker 3: like we are curious and creative and compassionate. That's where
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Speaker 3: that's all available, and trauma tends to shrink our window.
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Speaker 3: And what happens is it's easy for us to leave
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Speaker 3: the window, and that's when we might go into different
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Speaker 3: survival adaptations fight flight, fawning, so over accommodating people, pleasing,
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Speaker 3: or potentially dropping down into like dissociation. We feel disconnected,
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Speaker 3: we feel foggy, we feel depressed. And so part of
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Speaker 3: that work is beginning to have enough safety so we
9:30
Speaker 3: can begin to learn what do I feel like when
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Speaker 3: I'm in my window?
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Speaker 2: Who is the me that is in like and by
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Speaker 2: that window.
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Speaker 3: Part of what's happening is that our full brain and
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Speaker 3: body is online right, And that's also again going back
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Speaker 3: to the earlier part of our conversation, like that's when
9:51
Speaker 3: we tend to be most open to maybe God being
9:54
Speaker 3: with us, and we're just we're most the most in
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Speaker 3: a and we're the most able to really even process
10:04
Speaker 3: difficult things. And so as you can tell, there's a
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Speaker 3: lot of scaffolding to this, there's a lot of pieces
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Speaker 3: and this is why this work is not easy, but
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Speaker 3: it's possible, it's more than possible. And it's also why paradoxically,
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Speaker 3: gentleness and compassion as much as we can I know
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Speaker 3: that for trauma survivors, that's not always our first thing
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Speaker 3: we reach for, but as we're able, if we can
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Speaker 3: be a little bit softer with ourselves, paradoxically, it actually
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Speaker 3: makes it easier to be in that window.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a beautiful and poignant point because I
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Speaker 1: think there's there's, like you talk about the scaffolding, there's
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Speaker 1: this period of preparation to try softer, you know, like
11:06
Speaker 1: in order to listen, to be able to take that in,
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Speaker 1: something in me has had to slow down with attunement,
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Speaker 1: with withness to some degree, with some safe enough experiences
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Speaker 1: where then I can almost hear it, you know, where
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Speaker 1: I maybe couldn't in the anxiety and the and the
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Speaker 1: and the just hustling of.
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Speaker 2: Survival, the adaptation.
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Speaker 1: So that's coming to my mind. And there is so
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Speaker 1: much language out there that I don't argue with at all.
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Speaker 1: Around the body knows, the body tells the truth. The
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Speaker 1: body is right. Would you differentiate or just give your
11:48
Speaker 1: thoughts on that, because yes, and this right, that's the
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Speaker 1: way I'm thinking about it. But I love your thoughts
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Speaker 1: on that.
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Speaker 3: A statement like the body will tell us that truth there,
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Speaker 3: I believe that's true, and it needs context and.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, here's why it's and it doesn't take away the
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Speaker 2: reality that that's true.
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Speaker 3: We just have to make sure that we understand why
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Speaker 3: it's true, because otherwise it can get weaponized, and it
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Speaker 3: can get weaponized in some ways that are really harmful
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Speaker 3: to trauma survivors. And we don't want that, right because
12:23
Speaker 3: language has already often been weaponized, and so that's why
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Speaker 3: we want to be mindful. So essentially, you know, and
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Speaker 3: we can use the window of tolerance as part of
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Speaker 3: why this is how this connects.
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Speaker 2: Essentially, when we've had.
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Speaker 3: Unresolved trauma, typically, especially like chronic unresolved trauma. But it
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Speaker 3: could also be like one big T trauma like a
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Speaker 3: PTSD experience. It could also be multiple experiences of relational
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Speaker 3: trauma that's unresolved in our body. Both of those types
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Speaker 3: of experiences can shrink that window, like like we said,
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Speaker 3: and there are some implications from that.
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Speaker 2: And some of the implications.
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Speaker 3: Are that our body, in our bodies and our nervous
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Speaker 3: systems attempt to do its job to keep us safe,
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Speaker 3: can misperceive experiences that might be, for example, similar to
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Speaker 3: something that was truly harmful. Maybe it's like a person
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Speaker 3: looks like someone who was really abusive to you. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: the fact that they look alike in and of itself,
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Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that person is abusive. But your body,
13:42
Speaker 3: because of how trauma is stored in our body, that
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Speaker 3: can activate right lower that right amygdala.
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Speaker 2: Goes, oh, we've done this before, and what's.
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Speaker 3: Happening is that we lose because our body does this
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Speaker 3: be really efficient in the face of possible danger. So
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Speaker 3: when we perceive that there might be danger, we get
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Speaker 3: very black and white. And part of the implications is
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Speaker 3: that our brain has to react really quickly, and so
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Speaker 3: if something feels similar to something else that has actually
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Speaker 3: been harmful to us. At times we can misperceive it
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Speaker 3: as being dangerous when it is not. Secondly, sometimes a
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Speaker 3: situation is actually maybe in some ways not good for us.
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Speaker 3: Maybe that person who looks like the person who abused
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Speaker 3: you is not abusive, but they're not super nice. They're
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Speaker 3: not necessarily someone who's going to be your friend. Right,
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Speaker 3: they have done abusive, but they're not warm.
15:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. So now we're.
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Speaker 3: Trying to navigate past and present, and in the present
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Speaker 3: there's some things we actually want to pay attention to.
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Speaker 3: That person's maybe not someone that we want to invest
15:17
Speaker 3: in relationally, that's a real thing, and we are also
15:24
Speaker 3: experiencing something from the past that is also extremely amplified
15:29
Speaker 3: in that moment.
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Speaker 2: So when we say.
15:34
Speaker 3: Your body doesn't lie, if we don't have context, we
15:38
Speaker 3: could automatically assume that being triggered by the person who
15:42
Speaker 3: reminds you of the abusive person means that that person
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Speaker 3: is abusive, and that is a mis match to that
15:52
Speaker 3: actual reality. Here's what is true, Here's what you're Here's
15:58
Speaker 3: what is true about your body is that we can
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Speaker 3: believe that your body, your nervous system, is having an
16:07
Speaker 3: experience that's real, that is not a lie. And when
16:14
Speaker 3: we have enough safety to be in our window of tolerance,
16:19
Speaker 3: we can listen and we gain the capacity to bring
16:23
Speaker 3: the nuance and we can say, oh, that person feels
16:30
Speaker 3: very familiar because of X, y Z, and yep, I'm
16:33
Speaker 3: going to maybe need to work on that next.
16:34
Speaker 2: Week in therapy. That feels really.
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Speaker 3: Present and in the present, I need the skills to
16:43
Speaker 3: maybe that person still is someone that I don't want
16:45
Speaker 3: to spend a lot of time with, but we are
16:47
Speaker 3: going to treat that differently than someone who's been abusive. Right,
16:53
Speaker 3: So that's where, like we this is the potential danger
16:58
Speaker 3: of when we take things and we take it out
17:02
Speaker 3: of context and we slap it on like a band
17:04
Speaker 3: aid and we think that's ultimate wisdom.
17:08
Speaker 1: My goodness, that was so clear, and I do feel
17:12
Speaker 1: like that's a bit of a gap in some of
17:14
Speaker 1: the languaging that I see.
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Speaker 2: So I feel so grateful.
17:19
Speaker 1: I feel like that is good and I'm looking at
17:21
Speaker 1: the time and so I want to just pause and
17:26
Speaker 1: say thank you. I mean, thank you so much. I
17:30
Speaker 1: mean again, as you have done through your published works,
17:35
Speaker 1: just your present conversation is filling gaps for me so
17:40
Speaker 1: I just am so grateful to you for that and
17:43
Speaker 1: for the work that as a fellow survivor, I can
17:48
Speaker 1: understand it takes and it is worth it and it
17:53
Speaker 1: is beautiful. You know. It's really struck by the Christmas
17:58
Speaker 1: Light story and just the warmth of that and the
18:04
Speaker 1: almost like just corrective experience with inside yourself where something shifted.
18:10
Speaker 1: And I just want to tell you, Ady that I'm
18:12
Speaker 1: experiencing you that way, like that Christmas light and I
18:16
Speaker 1: know that that is that's that's not not that's a
18:21
Speaker 1: big deal, and I'm really grateful for that, and I'm
18:25
Speaker 1: grateful for your language and the work that you're doing
18:28
Speaker 1: in the world. Thank you for taking the time to
18:32
Speaker 1: sit with me today. Is there anything else that you
18:35
Speaker 1: would want to add or just circle back to or
18:39
Speaker 1: just drop in about the work you're doing now or
18:42
Speaker 1: anything else that's important to you before we close.
18:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I just want to say thank you, thank
18:49
Speaker 3: you for that, and I receive those words and I
18:51
Speaker 3: even you know, I feel emotion hearing that, and it's
18:55
Speaker 3: so meaningful. And you're right, it is quite costly to
18:58
Speaker 3: do this work. It is quite costly, and it is
19:01
Speaker 3: worth it. But thank you for acknowledging that. And I'm
19:04
Speaker 3: sure you have experienced that in your own you know
19:07
Speaker 3: work too. You know that it requires something significant to
19:13
Speaker 3: be able to honor the truth of what you have
19:20
Speaker 3: lived through and then to choose to re engage it.
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Speaker 3: So I just I received that. Thank you so much,
19:27
Speaker 3: and I am so grateful for our conversation, conversation and
19:30
Speaker 3: just how I experience you. And yeah, and I just
19:34
Speaker 3: would say for folks who are listening, I have some
19:37
Speaker 3: resources on my website Ondikolbert dot com if that feels helpful.
19:42
Speaker 3: It's too soon to announce, but I have a new
19:44
Speaker 3: book coming out next year, so I can't wait to
19:47
Speaker 3: start about that. Yes, yes, I've been in the throes
19:50
Speaker 3: of editing and I feel yeah, just grateful and proud
19:55
Speaker 3: of that book.
19:56
Speaker 2: And I can't wait to get to share more in
19:59
Speaker 2: the coming months.
20:00
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, well I will. I will have my
20:03
Speaker 1: eyes out for that. So thanks for giving us a little,
20:08
Speaker 1: a little tidbit of new information. So that's really fun.
20:12
Speaker 1: So Onycolbert dot com, which you just it's ko l
20:17
Speaker 1: b as in boy e r A U N D
20:20
Speaker 1: I right, Andy Kolbert dot com.
20:22
Speaker 3: Yes, yep, And if folks are on social media, you
20:26
Speaker 3: can find me same spelling as you just had, but
20:29
Speaker 3: on Instagram. And then I also am on substack and
20:33
Speaker 3: have been I took. I've been taking a little bit
20:35
Speaker 3: of a break as I finished this book, but I'm
20:37
Speaker 3: hoping to spend more time there, so feel free to
20:39
Speaker 3: sign up for that too.
20:47
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today on Echoes
20:50
Speaker 1: and Edges. If you're listening and you have just found
20:54
Speaker 1: this episode to be so full of important thoughts, please rewind,
21:03
Speaker 1: listen again, take notes. It is so worth really sitting
21:10
Speaker 1: with the words that Andy offered us. They are not
21:16
Speaker 1: only learned, like learned and intelligent through her education process,
21:23
Speaker 1: but they are experienced and you can feel that in
21:27
Speaker 1: Andy's presence, and so please take all the time that
21:31
Speaker 1: you can to really take in her wisdom. I am
21:36
Speaker 1: so deeply grateful for Andy's presence, her wisdom, and the
21:41
Speaker 1: gentleness that she carries into this work. I think what
21:45
Speaker 1: strikes me most about this conversation is the reminder that
21:49
Speaker 1: healing is not about becoming less human. It's about becoming
21:56
Speaker 1: more fully alive inside our humanity. It's about growing that
22:03
Speaker 1: window of tolerance, the capacity to live the capacity to
22:08
Speaker 1: experience our own arousal, our own sense of awe and
22:16
Speaker 1: wonder and beauty and connection. Today we talked about trauma, survival, adaptations,
22:25
Speaker 1: nervous systems, attachment, embodiment, incarnation, and faith and what it
22:32
Speaker 1: means to slowly come home to ourselves after years of
22:37
Speaker 1: living and protection and survival, and through all of it,
22:41
Speaker 1: I hope what listeners heard most clearly is something like this.
22:47
Speaker 1: You are not failing because your body learned how to
22:50
Speaker 1: survive and adapt. Your nervous system isn't your enemy, and
22:56
Speaker 1: gentleness is not weakness. Healing often begins through force or performance,
23:02
Speaker 1: not through safe connection, and again there's nothing wrong with that,
23:07
Speaker 1: and in fact, it's just usually the first step. So
23:10
Speaker 1: as you learn to pay compassionate attention and you learn
23:16
Speaker 1: to stay present and we I'll include myself in that,
23:19
Speaker 1: As we learn to stay present to ourselves with increasing
23:25
Speaker 1: tenderness and honesty, that window of tolerance will grow. If
23:32
Speaker 1: today's conversation resonated with you, I highly encourage you to
23:36
Speaker 1: explore Andy's work. You can find her books Try Softer
23:40
Speaker 1: and Strong Like Water wherever books are sold, and connect
23:45
Speaker 1: with her at andycolber dot com and on Instagram at
23:50
Speaker 1: Andy Coolber. We'll link all of that in the show notes.
23:54
Speaker 1: And as always, if this episode was meaningful to you,
23:58
Speaker 1: I would so love it and be so grateful to
24:00
Speaker 1: you if you would subscribe, leave a review and share
24:03
Speaker 1: it with someone who might need a little more gentleness
24:06
Speaker 1: and hope in their healing journey. Until next time, be
24:11
Speaker 1: kind to yourself, especially the parts of you that have
24:14
Speaker 1: learned to survive before they ever learned to rest. You
24:20
Speaker 1: are not too much, you are not alone, and you
24:24
Speaker 1: are right on time. If this episode resonates with you,
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