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The Women in Our Lives · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:08
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host today, Matt Lansdell, and joining me are Michael Di Orio and Reno Johnson. So today we're talking about the women in our lives and we're going to be exploring questions like, how have the women in your life supported you on your journey as a gay man? How have female friends played a different role in your life compared to male friends? And what do you appreciate most about the women in your life? So what we want you to get out of today's episode is really just the importance of women in our lives. As gay men, they play a very special role in most of our lives, helping us come out being the bridge between us and straight men or us and other gay men. There's lots of. There's lots of beauty. So if you are new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. So I was trying to think where to go with this, this monologue. It's pretty straightforward. And then when I was thinking about it, someone had left a comment on YouTube and I was like, oh, this is so brilliant. So it was divinely orchestrated. So I want to read the comments. So it's from Melina Gruen, I think that's her name. And she says, I just want to say I love watching the gay men going deeper podcast, even though I'm a woman, just because of the non judgmental, respectful way that you discuss topics and you're just sharing your thoughts and experiences, leaving space for other points of views instead of coming from a professional, I know it better perspective, even though I know some of you are professional coaches. So I'm just enjoying the space of authenticity and openness and feel a lot of the topics are relevant regardless of gender and sexual orientation. And even though you discuss it from a gay perspective, there's a lot in it for me as well. I thought that was very sweet.
• 2:07
  Speaker A: And it's not why I love the girlies. They love the gays.
• 2:11
  Speaker B: I know, I know. Yeah. And that's not the first comment we've got. And I have some female clients that listen to the podcast and, you know, I'm sure our mothers and sisters and there's lots of people. So this, this episode is for you guys. We're paying homage to the. The beautiful women in our lives and, you know, just the role they play in. In helping us be better people. And for the audience, I want you to just take a moment and just think, who are these women in your life? Just bring them to mind right now. Who are the special women in your life that make your life better, that have helped you on your journey to becoming a better man? Gay man, Whatever. Whatever you want to look at it as. And just bring them to mind while we unpack this topic today. All right, well, I know who I'm starting with today.
• 2:59
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 3:00
  Speaker B: We're going to begin with Reno because he said he's really excited about this topic and this was actually inspired by you having your mom on. Your mum was the first female to come onto the podcast and only. Really?
• 3:12
  Speaker A: I'm going to let her know. That's cool. I remember I called her, I called her up and I was like, mom, I said, you're a gay icon. She's like, what do you mean? And I said, go check out YouTube. You're rising star. Your stock is rising.
• 3:29
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. A lot of people that was a hit, that episode. So it was. It really hit home for a lot of people. So if you haven't listened to that episode, go check it out. It was, mom, I'm gay. Reno. And his mom got on and talked about his coming out process and being queer together, I believe. Is that kind of the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay, well, let's start with our first question. So how have the women in your life supported you on your journey as a gay man? Reno?
• 3:55
  Speaker A: In my mind, I had this laundry list of people, right? Like, it's like Grandma, Mom, Wanda, Roanna, Gloria, Jay, the other Wanda. Like, I mean, I could go on and on and on. And then there's the people currently in my life, you know, there's like Mumi and the Kangsha, Mimouna and, you know, like the list go, Monique. How could I forget her? Like, I would be here all day, you know, and it's interesting because just recently I had this experience and I've been sort of cleansing my life of relationships and dynamics and things that are no longer in alignment. And what I've noticed is that a few of my male relationships have shifted. Like, probably a handful of, I would say, significant male relationships in my life have shifted. And I'm actually really, really grateful for the experience. And what I started to realize in that process is also so grateful for those relationships. I love the men in my life. Absolutely. And you two are like, you know, Two of my favorite men. And also, I started to realize, oh, there's a magic that happens when I'm with women and with the women in my life. It's just. I don't even know how to explain it, but it feels like sanctuary, and it feels like therapy, and it feels like settling into a warm bubble bath with Epsom salts and candles and a place where you're just so understood and so loved. I can recall this moment where I was at a party and these guys were there. And again, I'm not knocking guys at all. This is not a bash, guys. I love men so much, and I get that they were just, like, in whatever they were in at the time, but they were ragging on me for reading a women's magazine. And I remember, like, all my girlies, like, as if, you know, on command, right? I said nothing. They turned to these guys and they went in on them. They were like, who do you think you are? You know, you don't talk to him like that. He's just enjoying a magazine, etc. Etc. And I was like, whoa, okay. Like, y'all have my back. And I said to the guys, too, I said, you know what? I get it. I said, and also, you could probably learn something from this magazine and from women, you know, So, I mean, that's just one of umpteen examples of women being in my corner. I think about my aunts, you know, the ones I knew growing up and the ones I connected with over the last four years here on the west coast, right? And the way that these women. And I also want to shout out, like, black women and indigenous women as well, because, you know, they have definitely been a core part of my life and played a major role in my upbringing and the shaping of who I've become. And there's a. There's a special kind of love there and a special kind of wisdom, and I'm so grateful for it. So, you know, I guess to get more, like, practical and, you know, granular, like, these women have provided a space for me to be myself, you know, in a lot of ways. A space where if I wanted to play with dolls, I could. If I wanted to sing, you know, the music of R and B divas and pop divas, I could, you know, if I wanted to watch Beauty and the Beast and sing along, I could. And also, if I wanted to just, like, burp, fart, you know, climb trees, ride bikes, build shit, break shit, like, whatever, you know, it was like, these were places where all of this could happen. And another Thing I want to point to is how witnessing them standing in and moving through the world in their beauty and brilliance and being like, it rubbed off on me. You know, I watch these women who were constantly challenged or who came from adversity or who struggled to exist in the world, given their identity, move with, like, the utmost confidence and grace and sometimes even rawness and vulnerability and strength and resilience. Resilience. Thank you. That. That's the word. All of that, you know, And I'm. I'm sitting by watching that, and by osmosis, I'm picking that up. Right. So, I mean, I could go on and on, but I have to leave some room for you guys too. Yeah. But thank you. Yeah. I love this conversation, this topic, so, so much. Yeah.
• 8:57
  Speaker B: It's so sweet to witness what you just shared. It was very heartwarming.
• 9:01
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 9:01
  Speaker B: See how much women have really impacted you. Yeah. And your heart, I can feel it from your heart. Yeah.
• 9:07
  Speaker A: Huge.
• 9:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's beautiful.
• 9:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 9:09
  Speaker B: What about for you, Michael?
• 9:11
  Speaker C: Yeah, I. I'm so jazzed about this topic as well. We've never done anything like it in all of our episodes, so. Yeah, it's. It's really good to actually get to think about before we record these podcasts. Sometimes I like to mull the questions over. And this one really. This first question really, really got me thinking, and it was good. I'm really happy that this was one of them. So let me share with you a bit of my thought process. So I'll speak to my friends, my female friends in, later in the episode, but two women that have supported me on my journey as a gay man. Two people come to mind very quickly, very impactfully. That is my mother, one of them, who is very much a part of my day to day, day life. She is 100% accepting and loving. She has given me so much love and support over the years. Not just to me, I think this is really important, but she has also welcomed my. My gay friends and my partners with open arms into our family. And that is, like, so important to me. And I know that that can be very hard. So, you know, big shout out to all the moms out there who support their queer kids and their friends and friends and partners. And I also have no doubt that she has loved and supported me in my journey as a gay man in ways I don't even know. I have no doubt that there's been a lot of times where she's maybe had to stand up for me or maybe had to be in an uncomfortable situation. Herself or that I don't even know about. I have no doubt that that's true. But yeah, so there's that. But then there's the second person that came to mind, and this was an interesting one, and this is my grandmother. And so here's a paradox for everyone out there. My grandmother passed away when I was in my early 30s. Okay? I didn't come out to her before she passed away. I didn't come out to her at all. She. She didn't even know that gay part of me. Now, she knew me as an adult and we were very close, but she didn't. We didn't talk about that. She didn't know that. You know, she would ask why I didn't have a girlfriend. I would say, I'm not interested in dating, and that would be it. So I don't even know to what extent she knew anything. Right? She's older, Italian, Catholic. Like, I don't even know if she knows what gay is. So I did not come out to her. And I'm okay with that. Yet. Yet as I was thinking about this question, why does she come to mind? And she did that part of me just as much as my mother and other woman, she taught me kindness, she taught me understanding. She taught me, probably most importantly, that I was deserving of love. Because her love for me, even though it came from a different language, it was unconditional. And I didn't even need to hear the words from her because I felt it deeper than words could have ever articulated. I felt her love. And she's been passed away for years. I still do feel that love to this day, even though she's not physically here. Okay, so this is interesting to me. It begs the question, how could she have supported me on my journey as a gay man if she didn't even know I was gay? Right. So I spent some time thinking about it, as I do, and the answer I came up with is this. The way that she supported me had absolutely nothing to do with my sexuality and everything to do with who I am as a person, as a man, not just as a gay man. So just for this, for this particular question, I want to kind of remove that qualifier of gay men for just a minute. Because the woman in my life is probably true for both of you guys too, and everyone out there. But the women in my life who have supported me the most in my journey as a gay man, for me, it's my mother, my grandmother have not just supported the gay journey, they have inspired me to be the man I am today a good, I think, human, regardless of the gay part, which is, yeah, like, my. My human qualities are far bigger than my sexual orientation. Both my mom and my grandmother have shaped my character. They have role models for me. What it is to have integrity, which is really important to me, to be courageous, which for all queer people is a very important trait that we all have. Even though they weren't gay, they didn't have to do the same courageous things that I did. I saw them be courageous in their own ways, in their own lives, in their own eras, in their own families and their own culture, and they role model that as well as kindness. And as I said earlier, how to love.
• 13:03
  Speaker B: I've.
• 13:04
  Speaker C: I'm so blessed that I received so much love from both of them. Unconditional, again, goes beyond words. I just feel it. And again, this. This is far beyond my sexual identity. So, of course, though, let's bring it back down now. This does impact who I am as a gay man because all these qualities that I have, I'm also. Also come into my gay aspect as well. Right. But it is more universal than that because before I was in my own identity a gay man. I was a grandson and I was a son. And that really hit home for me that it's like, this is so much bigger than just my gay identity. So my point here for everyone out there is, you know, as you consider this question in your own life, it's interesting to consider the possibility that the people who have supported your gay journey the most may not have even known that part of you. So shout out to mom and Grandma.
• 13:50
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 13:51
  Speaker C: N in Italian. Nona.
• 13:55
  Speaker B: Oh, that's also very sweet. Your guys's shares have really, like, opened my heart. I feel like when I started this episode, my heart wasn't really feeling very open. And now I'm like, oh, okay. There's emotion stirring in me.
• 14:05
  Speaker C: That always happens with us. Right?
• 14:08
  Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Where to go then? You know, I came out at 18 and I was. Well, maybe I'll go back a little bit before that, around probably 13, 14, ish, I was. I hung out with all guys, you know, pretty much grew up playing hockey, street hockey, all these sorts of things. I didn't really have many female friends. And there was an incident that happened. I hung out with a bunch of kind of the bad kids in a way, and they were like drug dealers and stuff like that. And there was this thing that happened where they got caught and I was kind of in it, but kind of not because I wasn't drug Dealing. And it brought, like, all my friends into the police got involved and everything like that. And then eventually my mom said, like, I don't want you hanging out with these kids anymore. So I basically had to kind of shift my friend group. So. And I kind of look at this as a blessing in disguise because I feel like if I would have hung out with this group, I probably would have had a very different relationship with my sexuality. I started hanging out with all women, and that went into high school. So towards the end of grade 12 is when I came out. I was 18 and I came out to. The very first person I came out to was my friend Vanessa. And I'm actually hanging out with her after this today, so it's kind of ironic. And, yeah, I came out as bisexual at first, and then eventually I came out as. As gay. But it was almost like to her, it was like, kind of like it was nothing. Like, it was like, okay, yeah. And then we just, like, moved on. And I think for me, that was like, a big deal because it was like that was the first person that I had told. It was like, out now. And. But then I started thinking about just how, you know, kind of like how you answered the question. Like, it's. It's more than just about being gay. I think in that respect, women helped me really come into connection with that part of myself and heal shame, I guess, because they didn't shame me and they didn't have those reactions that I think a lot of straight men would have had, which would have been like, ooh. Or they would have been, like, really uncomfortable around me, which, again, elicits shame. Whereas women tend to be more curious about it. They want to know, they ask questions, and then you can talk about boys together. And there's like, an inclusion that I got to experience. When I started coming out to women and hanging out with women, I felt like this. These were my people. And I do. I view myself as kind of like half man, half woman. Like, I feel like I have this two spirit kind of connection to the world, and the one side was very repressed, and connecting with women really, really helped me connect with my feminine side and my sensitivity again. If I would have kept hanging out with, you know, guys and playing hockey and stuff and not having a connection to women, I would have for sure not developed that strong of a connection to that part of me. And I think I would say I'm even more in the feminine energy than the masculine. Like, I'm very compassionate and nurturing and empathic, and these Sorts of things. And I think hanging out with women really allowed me to, like, refine that and embrace it and, like, really connect to my authenticity. So I think that was a really, really big part. So there's really. There's a whole bunch of women. Really. Like, I've had so many amazing friends, and all my best friends have been women, you know, so. And my best friend currently, her name is Jackie, and she. She's a psychologist, and she's just been a huge support of mine. She's nine years older than me, so she has know more wisdom, more life experience. And I met her when I was working at the jail, actually, as a counselor. And she was the team lead on the team that I was on. And I remember walking in to. It was like a morning meeting, my very first shift, and they. The whole team had been assembled, and I was the last person to come onto the team. And I remember walking in and I looked at her, and it was like I was looking at my sister. Like, it was the most crazy thing. Like, she's totally a soulmate of mine. And then ever since then, we've been. We've been best friends, so. And she's helped me, like. Oh, my God, I can't even really begin to say how much she's helped me throughout my journey with a lot of mental health issues that I've struggled with and stuff like that. She's been there just as, like an unconditional, supportive, loving person. So I very much value her. And I'll talk more about other women in my life as we go, but those. That's. That's the start. All right, so, audience, we want to hear from you. If you're watching us on YouTube, let us know in the comments. How have women impacted your life or supported you on your journey, just in. In general, or on your journey of coming out, embracing your sexuality as a gay man? I'd be curious to hear about that. And if you are listening on your podcast, maybe you're on a walk, maybe you're driving, just take a moment and just reflect on that question, see what that brings up for you. And if you'd like to come and share your stories, thoughts, opinions with us, you can come join us in one of our event offerings, which are our Sharing Circles and our Connection Circles. Sharing circles. We basically get together and one person comes and shares on Zoom, and everyone else is holding space. Connection circles. You get to do what the three of us do. We put you guys in pods, and you're able to discuss the questions and unpack it further. So if you want to learn a bit more about that, you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com and check out the event section to RSVP. And if you don't have Facebook, we can always email you the zoom link as well if you get on our email list. All right, Reno, how have female friends played a different role in your life compared to male friends?
• 19:32
  Speaker A: Well, I want to start with my gratitude and appreciation again for the men in my life, because in reverse to you, Matt, I spent so much time, I would say, connecting to my feminine essence. And it wasn't until later on that I felt more comfortable leaning into what felt like more of my masculine essence. And to be honest, even as I'm saying that, I think there's always been a balance. You know, I. I definitely feel like those. Those two aspects of myself and my expression are very alive. One I grew to love over time and with a bit more challenge. Because growing up, I had some difficult relationships with men. I think they. We had trouble with each other. You know, there was. And I think this is part of my. My sort of medicine and my destiny is that, like, I align with the masculine or individuals in male form, and there's kind of this friction that happens initially, and then inevitably it shifts. But. Love you guys, you know, Men love you. My female relationships, though, they come with a toughness as well. But it's like it's a different kind of tough love, you know, like, there's a tough love, but it's a different kind, you know? And I don't know. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but if you've felt it, you know, I would say also the time and space we spend together, it's just like. It's more gentle. It's more sensual. There's kind of a softness to it and like a sweetness to it. It's therapeutic. Somehow I feel like I can breathe a bit deeper and relax a bit more. I don't know. There's something there where it's like I just feel my shoulders and my stomach settle and my roots settle and just like everything just feels a little bit more relaxed in a sense, you know, my whole body, my whole being. I would say they also my girlfriends, I don't know, they always seem to be on board, you know, like, you mentioned curiosity earlier, and I love that. Like, if I said, we're going to the gay bar they're in, you know, or I can remember saying to one of my friends, like, want to go to the bath house, right? And she was just down, right? She was always down. Like, wherever we were going, she was down. I remember she came to. I met a guy at the gay bar, came out to my brother in the same night as well. I shared this on the podcast before she came with me and then ended up spending the night at his apartment with me. You know, I was in one room, she was in the other. But just my girlies, like, they're always down, and they like everything short of pulling up a throne and handing me a gauntlet, like, they just praise me, and it's amazing. And the reverse is true. Like, I love them so much. It's just. I don't know how much more specific I can be about the difference. But, yeah, I would say that that's. That's it there. You know, I would say that that's it there. Just. There's a. There's a quality of love there that differs, and it doesn't mean that there. There isn't love and some of that goodness in my male relationships, but in the female ones, it's just. It's different, you know, I feel you.
• 23:14
  Speaker C: Yeah, I totally get that. I know exactly that kind of. When you said toughness, but in a different way, I'm like, I know exactly. My female friends are very, very similar. I would call it the same kind of thing. And I guess differently from Matt. I had a lot of female friends growing up. I felt more comfortable with my female friends growing up, and I did not feel comfortable with the men, with the boys at all. I was more of that sensitive, not athletic at all kind of kid. So, you know, while all the boys were playing sports and whenever I was very intimidated by that, I was hanging out with girls, chatting and talking and having a little. Kiki. Wasn't called Kiki at the time, but we were just having a nice little time, but between the portables at recess, not sexual. So, yeah, you know, how have female friends played a different role in your life compared to male friends? First of all, I want to say I think it's really important for me personally that I have female friends and straight female friends, to be specific, and straight friends in general. I think that makes my gay life richer and more interesting that I have a lot of different friends out there. So, you know, just shout out again to all my straight friends out there, including the female ones. But I think because the female friends don't experience the world like I do, they offer a different lens on life that makes them very interesting for me to be around. You guys know that I'M you know, Sapio, I just love. I get very curious. I love hearing other people's opinions. I love hearing other people's perspectives. And so watching them go through the world, I think Reno had said this earlier, watching them, like, engage with the same kinds of things I have to engage with, but from their perspective, is very interesting to me. And, you know, all of my friends are very capable of enjoying deep, thoughtful conversations, which is really awesome. And women just do that. I think women do that very well. They do that with a lot of empathy and understanding. So, again, we can. They can not get it. They can disagree, but still be very kind and loving through that. And another thing is, I think those conversations have really challenged my own bias as a man and my own privilege as a man, even a gay one. Like, I. I have privilege. We have privilege as men that I didn't really see until I saw them. And what they had to deal with, the bigotry, the sexism that they had to deal with and how they dealt with it, was actually quite inspiring. So, you know, those are some of the key ways. And with respect to, like, the part of me that is very much immersed in gay culture now, you guys know that, as you know, I spend a lot of my time with gay guys. So when I get to hang out with them, it feels like a bit of a reproof. It's very nice not to have to talk about boys all the time. It's actually nice to talk about other things, yet I can still share anything with them. So, similar to what you were saying, Reno, they're down for anything. We can talk about anything. Nothing is taboo for them at all either, obviously, because they're my friends, so that makes sense. But it is nice to just kind of come out of that world, that bubble, that gay bubble, and talk to them about their marriages and their kids and their careers and their lives and even the world politics. Right? It is very interesting. And I will say, my female friends will call out, and I love that about them. They question things. They call shit out. They might not have that shared experience, but when they call shit out, they do that with that. Like you were saying, you know, that toughness with lots of love wrapped in the toughness. So it's this emotional attentiveness. I get what you're saying with that. Like, it feels very easy. And if I get feedback from a female friend, for whatever reason, it just hits very differently and so much better than, like, when it comes from, like, one of my gay male friends. So they just offer a Different perspective. And yeah, I get what you're saying is who talked about it being like a bubble bath? Like a warm bubble bath. That really stayed with me. Was that. Yeah, like. Yes, exactly that.
• 26:47
  Speaker B: I have anecdotal data.
• 26:49
  Speaker C: Yay.
• 26:50
  Speaker B: To prove that women are stronger, I used to do a personal training. And I'm not even joking. All of my female clients, I had about a split. Half male, half female. And always the female clients. I could push harder, could push longer. The men would give up sooner. Like, women have a resilience and an endurance about them. Like. And I even. Honestly, like, I know I'm generalizing, but this is just my experience. Women tend to be more emotionally enduring as well. I see that because I think they're conditioned differently than men. They're conditioned to be able to embrace more of their emotional range. So I think they've had more experience in that area. So I think that's kind of the biggest difference for me, how my female friends played a different role. I think women tend to be more nurturing, more empathic, more sensitive, more attuned. So I see them as more emotionally intelligent. Not saying men can't develop that, but I think we're women get a head start, so it's makes more sense that they can develop that. So if you're wanting to develop stronger emotional intelligence, hang out with women more because they tend to carry that more easily and they can express it more easily. So the relationship with women is just less complicated, Honestly, especially when it comes to. With gay men. Like, there's a complication that comes with it. Right. Attraction comes up and comes into play, like all those things. Right. So just, I just find women, it's just easy to connect with them, you know, like cuddling. Said this before, I have a cuddle buddy who's female and we cuddle and it's like there's zero thought of, like, oh, what if they think that this is more? Or whatever. It's just so nice to just put that to rest and be able to just be able to. My nervous system can just, you know, rest and enjoy the cuddle without it, you know, worrying or thinking that it's going to be something different. I feel like I can be more my playful, silly self with women. There's this part of me still that I have in me that when I'm around men, especially straight men, but even sometimes with gay men, there's a part of me that feels like I still have to be in that stoic energy. Right. Like I can't fully let go and Be goofy and silly. I still can. Like with you, Reno. Like, when we've hung out before, we'll. We'll sing and dance and whatever. Like, I can be goofy, silly, but it tends to come easier with women, I find. And then there's this relationship that I have with women tends to be also built around that I can connect with them over, like, men, helping them understand men better. Because I have, again, if I. If I'm that two spirit kind of energy, I can bridge usually heterosexual men and heterosexual women, I can help them understand each other better. So I do see that women really value my friendship, my. My thoughts, my feelings. They're very curious about, like, you know, extracting information from me. And I love that. I love when people see me as somebody that has valuable information. So I always feel valued when I hang out with women. But there's something that I want to bring in because there's. This isn't. This is something that I. I have experienced over the years, and there's some grief around it, which is. Most of my female friends have shifted significantly. So in school, I remember hanging out with girls and it being like this. Really. You're like best friends, and then they get a boyfriend and they stop hanging out with you. So that happened to me multiple times. And it was very hurt. Like, I was very hurt by it. And then, you know, getting. As you get older, I find that my relationship with women has significantly changed as well. Because they have kids. They get married, they have kids. And then you're right. Like. So there's been a grieving within my female relationships that I haven't had with male relationships that I just wanted to bring voice to that because I think other people might relate because it's just normal. It's natural. It happens. Like, when somebody has kids, they're going to stop being interested in or doing the things that I do as a gay man. Right. Which is, you know, and I'm even probably less typical. Like, I don't go to bars and party and stuff like that, which is. But still, it just. It shifts the dynamic, I think. So I wanted to just bring voice to that as well. Have either of you two had that experience?
• 30:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you sparked a thought. There was a period in the earlier stages of my coming out where I had this thought, and I don't know where it came from, but it was something I was sitting with for a while, and it was, am I just an accessory to these women? And are these women just an accessory to me? Right. Because I was in this Space where I'm going out and I have all these like hot girlfriends and we're, you know, we're out at the club and that whole space, like there's something very kind of transactional and superficial about it and I was really sort of living into it and playing in it and you know, as I think we all were. And there was a moment where I thought, oh, like, do I just view these women as kind of like my Aram? Like, you know, like they're my accessories and I'm theirs. And that's kind of the extent of this relationship. And I was able to kind of grapple with that for a bit and realize like, oh no, this is deeper than that. You know, this is so much more than that. I mean, look at the time we spend together, like eating chips and reading gossip mags and watching MTV or like prying together or whatever. Like this is so much more than that. But certainly at a point I started to notice like, oh, they're getting partners, they're getting married, they're having babies, they're prioritizing other things. And I love that you brought this up, Matt, because it does kind of change things and it is a grief that I don't think we talk enough about. The blessing is that they get to go off and sort of have their lives and you know, I celebrate that. And what has also been really interesting to see in my own life is how all of a sudden there are like more queer like femme or female bodied folks in my life and their priorities are a bit different. So like I have a new kind of girlfriend, you know, and she doesn't have children or she's not looking for them. And you know, we, our lifestyles are similar. So it's like my queer girlies have kind of replaced some of my hetero girlies who are still there just in a different capacity and to a different degree, you know.
• 33:12
  Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for sharing.
• 33:14
  Speaker C: I think for my particular girlfriends, they are all, as I'm thinking about it now, married. And we used to, in our earlier years they lived downtown, we'd go out to the bars, we'd have a good time. And then obviously they grew out of that and that's totally okay. I don't begrudge any of that. Now some of them have stayed here in the city, others have moved to the burbs. I don't see them as often for sure, I don't see them as often, but grief is not the word for me. I think I see it as a natural completion of that era for Them. And I totally get it, and I totally understand. And while I choose to continue to do that because I can, I don't begrudge them for not doing it. And I guess I don't grieve it because I see it as an evolution of our friendship. And some friendships will survive people evolving and changing, and some don't, and that's okay too. But for the women, I'm thinking in particular, I actually love seeing them thrive as wives, as mothers. I'm like, I knew you when you were, like, doing shots off some random guy's chest. And like, look at you now, being the most loving, nurturing, amazing wife and mother, like, killing it out there in, like, suburbia. And I love you for it. And I love that I get to see them in that. In that element. Right? So there is still that very much natural, like, love and respect. And yes, the friendship has changed, but they haven't lost their essence. I think they've only added to it. That's the way I see it.
• 34:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. I think I have a feeling with the ones that I've maintained connection with when their kids get older, I feel like we will return back to. And for me, the grief is the frequency, the frequency of connection. Right. And I think that's. It's a loss. It's a loss of a period or a chapter in, in life. And yeah, I can look at their evolution and be like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Like, even my sister, I'm like, oh. Like. And that's where I see the streng. Like, these women are like, raising other humans and like, they have so much patience and so much resilience. So, yeah, I can have a. Both. And I think of that experience, I think I can have the, the grief side and then also the part of me that feels like, wow, like they're. They're living their best life too. So again, if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, you can check out our coaching collection. You can learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting Instant access to 45/ premiums personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. Building better relationships would be good as far as, like, navigating different types of relationships and connections. So you can go to gayman goingdeeper.com for more information about our coaching collection or our courses. Okay, last question. What do you appreciate most about the women in your life?
• 35:54
  Speaker A: I mean, everything. Well, let me just say this too, like, to Be fair. My girlfriends have pissed me off sometimes too, you know, like, they. They're a mixed bag for sure. They have their own. Their own stuff, like, as we all do. But honestly, there's a quality of love and connection that I experience when I am among women that is unparalleled and unconditional. And they bring something to this world and to my life that. Yeah, like, in some ways my male counterparts do not, you know, and that's fair because vice versa. Vice versa is true. You know, I mean, they're in many ways responsible for bringing life into this world, beauty into this world, like I said, an unparalleled kind of love into this world. Yeah. I'm not even sure what else to say. I might just leave it there for now. More might come to me.
• 37:01
  Speaker B: But, yeah, I think you're. The way you answered the first question was you kind of really shared.
• 37:05
  Speaker A: I did, yeah. I just went like, right into it, you know?
• 37:11
  Speaker B: All right, what about you, Michael?
• 37:13
  Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. Another great question that I loved. So when I look around at all the women in my life, not just my family, but my friends as well, and I gotta say, I. I didn't talk about my sisters. I have a sister and a sister in law. You know, I gotta give them a shout out to everything that I said about both my friends and my family. They kind of are that bridge between. They're kind of my friends and they're kind of. And they're obviously my family. So shout out to my sister and sister in law as well. And this applies to them as well. This question. So what do I appreciate most about the women in my life? One word. But I'm gonna describe it because it might not sound the way it means, and that is badass. When I look around at the women in my life, all of them, they have this unique badassery about them, but not in the way that you might understand. So they're fierce. They're badasses in their own way. But let me. Let me describe what that means. Okay, so they take a stand even when it's unpopular. They lead with empathy and understanding, not with aggression, and yet still get what they want. Which is like, I learned from this. I love this about them. They are both assertive and respectful at the same time. And I see this a lot with women. Women really know. At least the women in my life really know how to be assertive, take a stand, and yet be respectful. So not doing it by name calling and being shady, all that stuff, they really do that. It's really More about compromise and mutual understanding. So they go slow, but they get it done just as, probably even more effectively, I would say, than men. And one thing that I love is when the chips are down, they don't let people, especially men, push them around. And this is especially true that I've seen in the corporate environment. So all my female friends I met through work when I started working in my corporate job, but this also applies again to my family as well. I saw firsthand how women in the workplace legit had to work twice as hard to get respect for their work. All while sexism and bigotry and people looking and judging them for what skirt they were wearing more than, you know, their actual job. I saw this for. I saw it, I saw it. So they had to work twice as hard to get that respect. But with the woman that I saw did is they worked three times as hard and ended up on top of that ladder. And that, to me, is like that badass energy that I just so love and respect. They're like, okay, you want me to work twice as hard? No problem. Watch me. And that is something that I take into my life. You guys probably see this in my own stuff too. Like, sure, I'm gay. I got to work twice as hard. Watch me. I will work three times as hard. So. And they do this all while still treating people with respect. They're not like, you know, bulldozing people around and being bossy or being pushy. They just get it done and stay true to themselves at the same time. So not only do I admire and respect that, but I truly, genuinely learn from them as well. And I think we all should, basically.
• 39:59
  Speaker B: And then they get to the top of the ladder, and then they get pregnant. It's like, right? And that's the big doozy. It's like, oh, my God. Right?
• 40:07
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 40:08
  Speaker B: So, yeah, I feel for women that, you know, really love their careers and then they have to choose at first. At least you can always go back and you can get a nanny and go back to work, but it's still it. You're going on a mat, leave. It can really, really impact, you know, you might lose that, the momentum in the ladder climb and different things like that. That would be really hard. So, yeah, some things that came to mind for me is just like, how easy friendship is with them. I already said that, but I just feel like they get me. They. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel so understood with women. Like, it's just. It's different for me than. And something else too I find, like, this is just my own experience, but I can be like, I have a pretty raunchy sense of humor, and I can have my raunchy sense of humor with women. And I find some men actually get more like, offended by my raunchy sense of humor than, than women, which I don't know why that that is, but maybe that's just my own experience. But, you know, and then my mother, I'll say, like, she's like, she's like my biggest fan. Like, she consumes all my content. She comments on all my things. Like, you know, there's just an unconditional love and devotion that mothers tend to have. And then I see that in my sister with her children. And yeah, it's just beautiful, the love that, that a mother has for their child. It's pretty special. And I'll say it again, it's just emotional intelligence. Like, I just feel like there's that piece that's very different when it comes to, to women. And I really do appreciate that about them because I think it's been my relationships with women that have really fostered that more in me in a big way. And I think actually a lot of. Again, this is just an observation of mine. I think heterosexual men develop more emotional intelligence dating women, right? Because they get to understand their emotions. They can feel safe to be able to share their emotions. So I think there's something there with that. But. And then working with female clients, I absolutely love it. Like, I, I would say probably, maybe it's shrunk more. Maybe 10 of my clients now are women. But I just love working with women. There's something very different about working with a woman than, than working with a man.
• 42:10
  Speaker C: So, yeah, the safety, emotional safety, to be my sensitive self. Women taught me that going back to again, my grandmother and my mother, they never shamed me for it. Whereas I felt very shamed by the men in my life for being, you know, soft, as they would say. Women never did that. Even in my, with my friend groups, I can cry in front of any of my girlfriends, no problem. Like, I wouldn't even bat an eye. Besides, the ones that I'm crying to think, like, oh my gosh, I'm going to start crying. Like, in fact, I, like, yearn for them when I'm feeling that emotional pain because I know they can hold me through it. And only in the last few years have I really been able to cry in front of men. My gay male friends. I have and I do. But that ability to hold me in my sensitivity and my rawness, like that emotional state is something that I really appreciate about all the women in my life. Even if they're badasses, that's what makes them a badass. Right.
• 43:03
  Speaker A: To piggyback on that as well. I think that's. That's an aspect of what I was attempting to communicate earlier when they said, I feel like I have been, like, fated to kind of challenge men in a way. But as someone who identified with the feminine in myself and who spent a lot of time in proximity to women, I think that what I started to notice is that I provided a space for men that I think is akin to being in proximity to women in some ways. Or it's sort of that feminine thing that I'm a space where they can reveal themselves and relax and share and cry and develop emotional intelligence and kind of. Of go through what it takes to get to that place, which can be really challenging because you kind of have to let. You know, you have to let that. All that heaviness and that armor sort of come off and come down. And so, yeah, I definitely feel that. And I've seen that on my own journey in being in proximity to women, is that, like, beautiful softening and opening that happens when you're in space with them, in closeness with them. So, yeah, shout out.
• 44:11
  Speaker B: I'll wrap by saying, they make great wing women. When I used to go out to the bars and stuff like that. It's just so nice to have women with you because they're such great buffers. Right. And they're great, like to go up and talk to guys and I don't know, there's just something about women that brings safety right. In those sort of connections. So. All right, well, audience, YouTube viewer, what do you appreciate most about the women in your life? Let's fill the comments section with appreciation and love for the women in our lives. Yeah. And just a final shout out to the female listeners. You're listening right now. You're hearing our voices and we appreciate you. We love you. We're glad that you're benefiting from the three of us coming each week and sharing. And thank you to you too, bringing forth your hearts today. It was really nice to hear.
• 45:03
  Speaker A: Thank you.
• 45:04
  Speaker B: And just a reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show, using the link in the show notes or tapping the thanks button on YouTube. You can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you in advance for that. And we'll hopefully see you at one of our next connection circles or sharing circles. Too bad women can't come to those, but maybe we'll create one. But yes, for everything GMB, you can go to gayonsbrotherhood.com all right, much love everybody.