Latest / Expertly Said / Sara Noonan on When a Life Sciences Communicator Becomes the Patient
Transcript
- Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Sarah Noonan. Sarah is a seasoned life sciences communications professional with nearly two decades of experience working in rare disease and oncology. She has held roles as the senior director of product and pipeline communications for Servier Pharmaceuticals and spent nearly a decade as the director of public relations and investor relations within the oncology business unit at Takeda. Prior to her in-house positions, spent several years at communication agencies supporting clients in pharma, biotech, and patient advocacy. She has deep expertise in communication strategy throughout a product's life cycle, as well as corporate communications, thought leadership, and crisis communications. She's also been involved in the development of patient advocacy and ambassador programs in both rare disease and oncology. Sarah's also one of my closest mom friends, which is to say one of my closest friends. Sarah, welcome to the show. Sara Noonan: Thanks for having me, Kristen. Kristen Sweeney: I'm really excited to have this conversation with you and to have you here. I'd like to start with our guests talking a little bit more about, we've heard a little bit of the shape of your career journey, but more about that origin story. Did you always know that you wanted to go into communications? Sara Noonan: Me too. Mm-hmm. I had actually started out wanting to be a journalist and I applied to Emerson College, which has a journalism program, as well as a marketing communications program. And sitting in the orientation, I ended up seeing both the journalist and the marketing presentations. And at the end of that, I switched my major and moved into marketing. I was so inspired by the way that you can change the way people perceive things. through more outlets than just the written word. And that really spoke to me as a way to use my creativity from an art side, as well as my love of words to be able to do something as a career. And I didn't even really think about that at the time that I had applied. And so from there, just switched my major and then have always been a lover of science, but I am deeply afraid of blood, which is just- Kristen Sweeney: Relatable. Sara Noonan: where I'm at. So I didn't go the pre-med route knowing that I would have to overcome that fear. And so I really took the time to think about how I could bring writing into science because to me, science was so exciting and I loved it so much from such an early age that I knew that that's where I wanted to go, but I didn't really know how it was going to get there. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, ⁓ I always got a shout out. My friend Collette, who like carried me in biology lab. I was a great student, but I just like sat back and took notes during all dissections. Sara Noonan: passed out when we dissected the fetal pig. I mean, I knew I knew at that moment that I was not going to be a doctor. Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ ay-ay-ay-ay-ay. Yeah. Now, were you a writer as a kid? Was that something? It sounds like you kind of knew that that was something you were really interested in going into college. Sara Noonan: I, yeah, I really, I think started to develop those skills in high school. I was really big into art. So I did a lot of painting, I actually had a lot of gallery shows around the Cape throughout high school. You know, and then I also really loved reading as a child. So I was the kid with the dinner book at the table, constantly being told to be putting it away. And then... you know, I got to this point in high school, I think it was my junior year, and you could take a journalism course. And so I started writing articles for a school newspaper, and it was a lot more exciting than an essay on, you know, a specific author or book we read. And I really, really loved it. And so I wanted to, you know, make my career. Kristen Sweeney: Yep. Sara Noonan: about writing and I thought journalism was going to be the obvious choice. ⁓ But of course, you know, I think working on the public relations side, it's really just the other flip of the coin. Although journalists would probably not agree with me on that. But that being said, you know, my love of writing was very clear. mean, I was also the kid who used to like write her own stories. Sometimes I find them. I'm deeply embarrassed and want to burn them, but I'll keep them for my kids when they're older. ⁓ And I just really cared about how you could present something to people that was going to grasp their attention. I didn't want to be an author. I liked short form. felt like that was a lot more impactful and meaningful for me. And so once I started to learn what my job could be like, I very quickly gravitated to that field. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I do. mean, I was the same kid, like, ask me about how I have long arms and I used to read in the shower. Like, I... But like, I think that for so many folks in communications, it is reading that is often that spark because you've been impacted by something. You have sobbed in your guest room, finishing Charlotte's Web or whatever else. And I know that like the kind of work we do now... maybe doesn't always carry that same impact. for me, I feel that the impact of words, the influence of language and its ability to get me to feel something or influence me or really change my mind is definitely a driver for me as well. So then we already went into some agency background. So tell us a little bit about that because it sounds like that's where life sciences specifically came into play. And then I'd love to also dig into Sara Noonan: Yeah. Yeah. down. Kristen Sweeney: the transition, that decision to go in-house and kind of differences at the time, but we'll get there. Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Yes, awesome. so, you know, back to college, I was at like the career counselor's office and we were talking about what I wanted to do. And I had actually just done a project with one of my professors where we were working with Boston Children's Hospital to ⁓ bring in volunteers to help cook for families that were staying in one of their homes for ⁓ people who don't have enough finances to stay in like a hotel. So they bring in these families, especially for some of the bigger operations that their children need to go through. And they're generally not from the area. So we were working on a program where we were bringing in other professionals, but also people from the hospitals to come in and cook them like a home cooked meal in their kitchen. And I was talking with some of the ⁓ hospital staffers about, you know, my love of science and I was a student and, and I remember ⁓ this woman had looked at me and she goes, go to agency and learn as much as you can. And then think about coming in house, whether that was, you know, hospital or pharma company. ⁓ so I to my career counselor with sort of that in mind. And I said, I really want to work for an agency, but I really want to be doing it in healthcare. And she just so happened to receive a job description that day for, you know, a student internship for Wagner Edstrom. for their healthcare team and I applied and I got the internship. remember actually getting the acceptance and there was a bee trapped in my dorm room. Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ my worst nightmare. Sara Noonan: while I was like trying to dodge the bee that was flying around. But I was so excited that I was going to start my career. And so I went in, I think I was like one of 10 people. We had a couple of people in Boston, a couple of people in the West Coast and a couple of people in London. And I started working for primarily rare disease and cancer clients. And I loved it. It was suddenly that opportunity that I had been looking for to write, you know, for ⁓ for living, but also get to explore science and explore how drugs worked and diseases worked and understanding the competitive landscape and how all of this sort of fits into this big pharma world. And I just loved it so much. And so I continued down that track. actually left after four years there to go in-house for one of our clients who was a startup making metabolic nutrition. ⁓ supplements and formulas for patients with PKU, which was a rare disease that I had also worked on a drug for. you know, that was really exciting and inspiring, but I felt like my time wasn't totally done with an agency. So I had come back ⁓ and worked for an agency, which has now been acquired by Ogilvy for a couple of years where I continued down that track. But the nice thing about this experience was that Now it wasn't just sort of straight like public relations and communications. At this agency, I really got experience on launching companies. For example, like Moderna was one of our companies when they were coming out of, ⁓ you know, that period of venture capitalist investments and were going out in the world. And it was really exciting to see how you basically created a pharmaceutical company from the ground up. So. than I was working on websites and working with creative directors on what is their color schematic and how do we want people to think and feel when they see images that relate back to this, you know, this company. And I was just, you know, having the time of my life. I think there's also something to say when you're young and working at a communications agency, you have really good friends around you because you guys are all in it together and you're all Kristen Sweeney: Hmm. Sara Noonan: doing your early mornings and late nights together and you're spending a lot of time with one another. And so you feel really supported and excited to get through this. And you learn so much because you have so many different clients and so many different types of projects that it's just this like continual fast paced momentum that's going through. But there gets to a point in your agency career. So if we want to flip to sort of the like going from agency to in-house where Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara Noonan: Either you can continue on the agency track and you can go and be, you know, a more senior professional within the agency. And that requires new business and trying to find new clients. Or you make the switch to go in-house, whether that's, you know, you know, and in my world, a pharmaceutical or a biotech company, a venture capitalist, maybe you go into academia or you go into a hospital system. But there's this point where you kind of have to pick the track that you want to go into. And I personally wanted to keep doing the work. I didn't necessarily want to try and find new business or start to be more in a management position. I really wanted to be ingrained in that. And so I moved over to BaxAlta, which was a recent spinoff of Baxter. and their R &D and oncology teams were based in Boston. was ⁓ funny enough, it just across the street from the agency I worked in. So I could like walk across and have my interview and then come back, ⁓ just like I had gone to lunch or something. we always joke in this Boston area that you can go to a different company, but you don't change your parking space because everyone's together, right? So I went over to... Kristen Sweeney: Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sara Noonan: for Baxalta and not even a year into my tenure there, they were acquired by Shire and my job was going to change. so at that point, I started to network and ended up at Takeda working in their oncology business unit for almost a decade. And that place will forever hold a lot of meaning in my heart. I met so many amazing people. the the experiences I was able to, you know, to endure and just having this opportunity to really feel like I was making a difference in people living with cancer's lives. It was transformative and it felt like, you know, I was waking up really excited to do what I wanted to do through written word, through video, through... you know, social media and, you know, running the gamma, it's expanded so much now. But, you know, I was really able to not just pitch a story to a newspaper. Like we had the opportunity to control the story and also help share and educate around science and the way that our drugs worked and could potentially change lives. And so that for me was really exciting and really, you know, I think Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Sara Noonan: The number of years I stayed there speaks volumes on the meaning that the work brought to me. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. There's something you said early on. ⁓ It was about learning, right? And just learning how drugs work, learning how diseases work. And it's interesting because I think so often we end up kind of as a default assumption that that is an obstacle. Like this, I've got to get up to speed. I've got to learn. This is the blocker between what the scientist knows and what I need to do. Sara Noonan: then. Kristen Sweeney: the learning is this kind of challenge to overcome. One of our core values is hungry to learn. And the truth is, this maybe is not an exciting part of the sales pitch that's like, love to learn. I love that. But I think as there is room for that, whether that's as an agency owner, as an individual. Sara Noonan: Yep. Kristen Sweeney: inside an organization to say like, but this is really fulfilling for me to get to have new experiences and challenge myself. And it's just I liked the way you framed it because I think so often the sort of like cold hard business case is like, well, it shouldn't be hard for somebody. It should be easy because then it will be efficient. like, but that's different. And, you know, we're millennials, so we want things to be fulfilling. Sara Noonan: Bye. Amen. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, really, yeah, I love that. And I like what you shared about like that, you know, seeing the fork in the road, I can certainly say that like getting new business is not for everybody and it's not always that fun. And so like being, sounds like you're very, very clear eyed about those pathways. ⁓ I know that patience are really important to you. And of course, like to a person, when we work with folks in pharma and talk to them, like, Sara Noonan: ⁓ huh. Kristen Sweeney: patients are at the center, right? And most organizations, there's a mission that is very focused on that and with good reason. ⁓ But you've had some examples where, and we're gonna talk about some of your personal experiences a little bit later on, but you've had some examples where you've really tried to look at what patients need and maybe kind of. Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: push the envelope a little bit in an industry that's known for being very risk averse and with good reason around ways to reach patients, different kinds of campaigns. Can you share a couple of those examples and yeah, I'll have some follow ups. Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ you know, I think, as you said, patients were very important to me. And for me, the patient was the reason that I came to work every day. And I think that, you know, you hear from pharma a lot, like patients are at the center of, you know, everything we do. It's certainly, you know, the mantra and everywhere I've worked, but it really is true. And it's not just sort of like the saying, I mean, we deeply care about the people. that we're hopefully gonna make an impact on. And we're also in an industry that is extremely regulated for good reason. And it's really important to understand those regulations, but then understand how you can deliver information and education to people, even though there are some barriers that might be in the way to get there. ⁓ I think, you You heard me speak at the Fierce Conference this past fall with ⁓ a legal counterpart. And for me, think that's also, I'll say out of the gamut, is so important for any campaign is to have that legal buy-in, the regulatory buy-in, the compliance buy-in, and the relationships that you build with those teams is so critical. Another big difference too, in terms of agency life, it's a lot harder to form those relationships. when you're not in house. And so being in house allows you to do that. So I can bring forth maybe two examples, one from my agency days and then one from ⁓ my time in house. But when I was brand new to the business and Facebook was still just a couple of years old, I had worked with a pharmaceutical company where we launched a Facebook community page for rare disease. And it was... one of the first Pharma Run Facebook pages ever. We didn't talk about our drug and that was very purposeful. What we wanted to do was to be able to bring the community together and allow them to have conversations with one another and feel supported by one another in a way that they might not be getting before. I think now when you think about a Facebook patient group, there's probably millions of them that exist now. But that wasn't always the case. And, you know, we created this page in this community and we did it as, you know, just for the awareness month. ⁓ You know, we worked very closely with our legal counterparts. I was at an agency at this time, so I worked closely with my in-house counterpart to work with her legal team and really help. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sara Noonan: devise the right rules and regulations. And we ended up winning a lot of awards for this work because we came about it in a very thoughtful, pragmatic way where we set this up for the patients, for their community, and not as a way to sell a drug. I think that when you start to look at communications in our role within a pharma company, it's not, I like to joke and say that we're Switzerland, like we're we need to be neutral. There's times where I'm gonna be communicating about a drug, whether it's data or an approval or there's follow-on indications or something that is backed up by a research or a news milestone. But there's also the need to be able to provide education to the patients that are living with a disease on... things that they should know about. And I think that this Facebook example is, you know, today feels very elementary, but it was something that was really needed at the time. You know, flash forward, and some of the work that I've done in-house, you know, I think has been more impactful, but maybe that's because the technology has grown and ability to do more being in-house, you know, was ⁓ definitely a in that. And so, ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara Noonan: You know, one of the things that I had done was work very closely with my patient advocacy team on a campaign to help support patients living with colorectal cancer. ⁓ And wasn't necessarily a campaign to ⁓ promote new drug that we had just launched, ⁓ but was a campaign meant to... ⁓ provide education to this patient community and let them know that we were here and supporting them. And whether or not you took our drug, like for us, we wanted to make sure that you had what you needed in order to get the most out of your healthcare. so that work was incredibly meaningful to me because... One, I was able to partner with several other stakeholders within my company, patient advocacy being a very important stakeholder in that relationship. But I was able to work with marketing, with medical, with legal, regulatory compliance, with our R &D folks. And we've really talked about what are the things that patients need. And we also brought in patients. So we also brought in advocacy organizations and patients to share. what they're seeing. We disseminated a survey to understand an even wider net of what we were seeing after we had started to get an inkling. And we were able to really start to dig into how race plays a factor in medical care, how conversations with physicians might not always be the most productive and how we could help change that. And to bring to light that, you know, there's going to be resources that we could develop. but they were very thoughtfully pulled together with a lot of research backing it and patient input so that we weren't just sort of throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping something would stick. We were really, really intentional and that costs time and it costs money, ⁓ resources, people. But when you work for a company that's dedicated to the patients that they serve, that's worth it because at the end of the day, Yes, you're pharmaceutical company, you're a business, but also you have the absolute privilege to be able to play a role in somebody's life like this and to be able to provide them with something that maybe they can use is just, it's just, it's an incredible feeling to be able to deliver on that. And I think that for me, you know, that was like my drive, my what, like why I wanted to do this. and then I know you've alluded to my own personal reflection, then like that for me has made such an impact on just how I've even conducted my own personal health choices and vice versa. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. I, it's, you were talking about the resources and, I worked for years. I was on part of the team that launched a new website for a breast reconstruction center as part of Northwell health. And I mean, I was in it to win it with that team, like from day one. And I remember those specifically this, you know, because I would help with some of the content mapping and organization as well as the copywriting and Sara Noonan: and then. Kristen Sweeney: There was a resource that was like a ⁓ drain. It was to measure the output of your drains after your surgery. But the person who helped create it was like, all these other resources aren't that useful. This is actually what people need to measure and how they need to measure it. And I remember I was able to like, at some point, print it off and share it with someone in my life who was having a procedure. And they were like, this was really useful. I like, I mean, so. Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: Just those things that are considered in terms of the way people will really use them. And you never know what small thing you can do to ease somebody's path in the middle of their recovery or as they're going through treatment. ⁓ And this is the other thing. obviously, we know there's a lot of criticism of pharma. And it's been interesting for me over the last several years to really Sara Noonan: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Kristen Sweeney: unpack and understand more about the business model and what's happening as how things like drug prices are set. And we don't need to get into that here. But one of the things I do think about often is I watch and observe the investment in things that aren't transactional, that aren't tied. And as you said, that costs money to go build patient relationships. And yes, like, Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: There's also a business case for those things in a much broader, more vague, can't be exactly tied to prescriptions kind of sense. But there is, in fact, a tremendous amount of what I see of effort, investment, care put into things that are not transactional as a big part of the conversation, especially, of course, on the com side and on patient advocacy. Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. you Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ So I want to transition now because we've been kind of talking around the fact that ⁓ our one big idea today is to talk about your own experience as a rare disease patient and a little bit about what that journey has been like and maybe how it's. changed your approach to your work or how you think about communication ⁓ and patient relationships. So I want to give you a little bit of an open floor to share what you'd like to share and then we can go from there. Sara Noonan: me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think, ⁓ you know, what I have experienced in the last couple of years has brought a lot of aha moments to me. So I wish I had a name for my disease. I don't have one yet. And I think that's also ⁓ part of the rare disease journey is that it can take five, 10 years to get a diagnosis. ⁓ But whatever impacts me impacts my lungs. And so ⁓ I think that, you know, it's been a big experience for me to be on the patient side. So there's been some things that have fundamentally ⁓ changed the way that I worked or brought perspective into ⁓ patient communications and being able to think about that. ⁓ You know, one example that I, you know, can share off the bat is that, you know, I started seeing some like world renowned specialists, ⁓ you know, them being stumped on. what's going on with me to ⁓ the work that I have bringing. So even though my area is gonna be pulmonary, some of the work that I did in cancer, I still feel like there was a lot of crossover, especially because almost all of the diseases I've worked in in my career have been rare, whether they were rare types of cancer or rare genetic disorders. And there was a doctor who sent me like a My Health message about a week before an appointment and said, can you let me know the top three things that you absolutely want to make sure we cover when we see each other next week? And I had never had a healthcare professional do that. And I don't think you're going to necessarily see that, ⁓ you know, with a PCP, although I do recommend it. It's a great, a great idea to have your top three, but. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara Noonan: You know, when we were thinking about programs for our colorectal cancer journey, you know, we brought that in of let's make sure that patients know, you know, that they should think about the top three things that they want to bring in. And if the healthcare provider doesn't necessarily, you know, spark that ahead of time, they should feel empowered and advocated to either share it ahead of time or bring the list in. But I think sharing it ahead of time also puts you and your physician on the same page. And for taboo topics, that's really a safe way to start to broach that because it kind of breaks down that barrier of this feels awkward to talk about. ⁓ I think the other things though that I've experienced is just sort of the frustration of not knowing what's going on, the frustration of, ⁓ you know, feeling like I'm just going to appointment after appointment after appointment. And, you know, I feel, we'll say, okay, I'm stable, but I don't feel great because my new okay or stable is a new baseline. And so really starting to think about, you know, how the patients that I'm working with in my role as a communicator, it was very eye-opening to think about, okay, when they talk about fatigue, This isn't just I got a bad night of sleep. This is I wake up every single day, even if I've gotten 12 hours of sleep and I don't feel rested. And suddenly understood that. Or, you know, I'm really sick and tired of getting all these blood draws and I wish that I could just like skip this, you know, this week or this month's, infusion or testing or whatever it is. And like, I suddenly got that. Like it suddenly feels like you become almost like a lab rat or you're like stuck in this cycle of like appointments and people maybe not believing you and then finally believing you because something got serious enough or you know, when you're talking about yourself, just talking about yourself as, I'm doing okay. You know, that doesn't spark a physician to think I need to make a change for this person. They think, ⁓ they're, They're good, they're doing well. My okay is different than your okay. And so it really started to help me understand the need to one, advocate for telling people how a disease impacts your life, but also understanding how treatments work, how they're going to help you. How do you describe a treatment to others? feel, you know, as a pharmaceutical professional, I didn't get to go and peek into those Facebook groups where they might be talking about our drugs or not. But as a patient joining some of those, you know, patient support groups, you're suddenly seeing this world of, wow, there's a lot of people here who don't even understand their disease or the drugs that they're being prescribed. And Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Sara Noonan: you're seeing people say things like, I don't really know if I want to take that. I just have a mild version. And I'm over here. I just can't drop my communicator background, even though I'm not working for some of these companies. And I'm like, yes, but if you look at the data, you know, it actually shows that it helps prevent additional lung damage. And we should think about, you know, the importance of that and talking to our physicians of, is this right for me to be able to help? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Hahahaha Yeah. Sara Noonan: with this area, maybe not necessarily this area in which the drug is currently being advertised for, but then when I look at the data, I also really wanna understand this area. And I think that like the average person doesn't have that baseline. And so, when you work in pharma, you know that people don't necessarily have the same... Like they don't have the same understanding of how drugs work or things work, you know, in the body. ⁓ But now that I am the patient and I'm seeing it firsthand, it's so clear that there's a lot of education that I think still needs to be done on how does this drug work? What does it do? What is the, you know, MOA for the fourth grade reading level, which I... things sometimes can be very hard on the pharma end to create because it's complicated, but it's like, how can you describe this in a way that's really gonna help someone? Because if I'm making choices about my healthcare, I wanna know what is this gonna do for me? How is this gonna impact my quality of life? I don't look at procedures or drugs anymore as, know, ⁓ this is gonna be super helpful and like it's gonna, you know. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sara Noonan: it could potentially change your life and do X, Y, and Z. I look at it as like, what are my trade-offs? What do I have to take on, whether it's a side effect or a time commitment, and what am I going to get out of it? Am I going to get a better night of sleep? Am I going to prevent, for myself personally, am I going to prevent lung damage? For somebody... Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara Noonan: who's living with cancer, is it gonna help me live longer feeling this okay so that I can enjoy my time with my family and friends that I have left here on this earth? Or is it going to just, you know, am I gonna have tons of diarrhea and headaches and insomnia that weren't really explained as a side effect that are going to make, you know, the choice to take it? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara Noonan: maybe not worthwhile to me. And I think that there's this balance of trying to explain the worth of a drug and the worth of the treatment choice to patients that's not being done at the level that it could be to really help them understand, you know, what's in it for them. Like they wanna know from other people what their experience has been like. And I think again, the regulation makes it really hard for pharma to do this, but. hearing firsthand from people who are on these new prescription drugs makes a world of a difference. And before I started a new drug recently, I started looking in the Reddit groups and looking at the Facebook groups and understanding what people's experiences were with them. So that, even though I think the choice for me came down to data and discussion with my physician, I also had maybe better questions to ask to my physician because I had sat down and looked and I said, ⁓ what time of day should I take this? How hard is it to get insurance prior authorization? ⁓ What pharmacies are fulfilling this? Is this something I can go down to Walgreens or CVS or is this something that has to come like a mail order? ⁓ And really starting to better understand that approach. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara Noonan: I think that there's a lot of things that we can do in communications to help people living with diseases understand what the experience might be like. you know, am currently on leave right now because my condition has prevented me from being able to do the full-time job and be a mom and deal with my health. You know, and that even that has been eye opening of. You know, I need to dedicate 20 to 25 hours a week to my health, to treatments and appointments and making sure that I can stay stable so that I can live the other parts of my life. And I think that these are things that are not necessarily factored in when you are a professional, you know, with a certain amount of money in your budget, knowing that you need to communicate certain things out and you've got, you know, KPIs to hit and you know, marketing wants to see an ROI and, you know, other types of management want to see like the return on the sales. And like, there's a lot of things that factor in it, but I think if we can take a step back and make sure that the patient perspective is really understood and what they're looking for, there's going to be a lot of value if we can figure out how to do that in a compliant manner. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, mean, gosh, so much there. So first, thank you for ⁓ your transparency and your openness and generosity in sharing your story. ⁓ think that, you know, we talk about to me, this this comes back to empathy and really being able to put yourself in that situation of somebody else. And it's not that easy. And it's also not just an exercise of imagination. Right. Because you keep You can try, but you can't fully imagine that. And maybe never can have that experience unless you are, in fact, living it. talking to patients, really hearing from them the ways in which every facet of their lives maybe is impacted and touched. And then, of course, you have to make decisions about. Sara Noonan: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: which things you feel, where you can make the impact. And maybe you can't make that impact everywhere. And that has to be OK. And you have to prioritize. So as a child of two pharmacists, I was kind of grinning to myself when you're talking about, I mean, we are all over. What are you taking? What is it? often? We just very nosy about that with each other within my family. But the other thing is that I'm thinking, Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: You know, it's also not necessarily more is better, right? Because like you could potentially overwhelm people or maybe they're trying to get this information, but the 15 minutes they get with their physician and it's all kind of hitting them isn't enough for them to process it. And so it's like, how do you maybe have that information available or serve to them? Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: when they're ready to consume it, where they're ready to consume it, kind of letting them lean into that phased education. ⁓ the, like, I think there's a little bit maybe what you're describing is that curse of knowledge, right? Like not understanding that the starting point should be not at G, but at A, right? Like all the way back at A because for whatever reason, less exposure to this, Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: maybe not having taken a lot of medications in their family historically or in their own personal lives, ⁓ being very new, difficult to process, like all of those things that really bringing it back to foundations. ⁓ Yeah, it's really interesting. I'm curious how with being on leave and like really prioritizing your health and seriously like, Sara Noonan: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: massive, that's a massive achievement, think, in a world where so many people are like, you know, my health, my health. And it's like, that just feels like the thing that you will just try to squeeze in around everything else. And you are this example of like, maybe as the result of a forcing function, but still like, choosing to pause. ⁓ How has that like, Sara Noonan: Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: if at all sort of impacted your sort of professional sense of self. It sounds like this is the first time you've not been working full time since you graduated. Sara Noonan: Woof. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's very true. ⁓ have been off of work for almost six months. It's about the same amount of time I was off when I had my second child for Matt Leave. Although, let's be real, ⁓ that was worse than work. ⁓ Jokes aside, ⁓ I think for me, it just kind of came to a head of Kristen Sweeney: That felt like work. Sara Noonan: was just so sick all the time. you know, it was I think the the decision was I actually had just come to see, know, you and your family for a visit. And I have been sick for like three weeks at that point. And I was, you know, with what we call flair. ⁓ But I wasn't thinking of it in those terms then. And I got home and I still wasn't better. and I still wasn't better and I still felt worse and I even started antibiotics and I just got to this point where I was like, I can't keep doing this. And I started to really seriously think about it and I was like, okay, you know, I took a stay where I was like, if I stopped working, can we afford it? Because that wasn't even really something I have, I was like, no, we can't afford it if I stop working. But I was like, no, no, no. I can't work myself into the ground because at the end of the day, I had three jobs and I was like, I have my full-time work. I have motherhood, which is definitely more than a full-time job. Even when your kids are at school for the day, it's absolutely something that's still always there. And then I have my health. And as I said, like it's 20, 25 hours. I only know that now. because I'm not working. But I was fitting in 20 to 25 hours of health related issues into a 40 plus hour work week on top of being a mom. And I started to think about what was the most important thing for me. And I had to really separate myself from this idea that my career defined me because I think as millennials, as women, we grew up thinking that the work that we did is our entire, you know, personality. It's who we are. And I just got to this point where I was like, I can't even, like, you know, no pun intended for being a pulmonary patient, but I can't even breathe. Like, I literally can't even breathe. How am I going to be able to take care of all of these things? And I, you know, I started as like, let's go on short-term disability and just take a step back, let's get over this flare that I'm having. ⁓ Me being sick can take up to eight weeks before I recover. I used to work through those. It was really hard. had gangrene in my lungs and went back to work four weeks afterwards. And I think that my drive to be a professional was really clouding my vision as a patient and a mom. And I knew at the end of the day, if I had to pick out of the three, I knew that I had to pick myself and I had to pick my kids. And it was really hard. I will say I have tried to keep my foot in the door to try and maintain a lot of my knowledge in the space and continuing to ensure that I can stay. involved in whatever capacity I can because I truly loved my career. I loved it and it wasn't a job, it was a career. I loved the work I did. I loved being able to make a difference in people's lives. I loved working with teams of really smart people. I loved managing. I loved being a mentor, but I also knew that I couldn't show up 100 % in that capacity if my health was completely failing. And I was just sort of like throwing it to the wayside. This is not, you know, this is no longer the dentist appointment that I need to schedule, you know, cause that's overdue, right? It was like, I literally have lung damage that I cannot reverse and it's hard to breathe. And I need to be able to put everything in it so that I don't get worse and that I can be here to watch my kids grow up and I can be their mom who's not running on fumes ⁓ as I get emotional, you know, I'm just. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara Noonan: I want to be the best person I can. And it took a lot of work. I cannot say that that was an easy decision, but it was something that I was able to, you know, I talked to my therapist about, I talked to my friends about, my family members. I have such an amazing network of people in my life where they were checking in on me and making sure that I was, you know, holding up mentally, but... You know, I knew that at the end of the day, my identity couldn't be defined by my professional life, but it needed to be, it needed to be defined by the things that I did for myself. And I also needed to show not just my kids, but I think like the broader community that it's okay to put the pause button and put yourself first so that you don't end up in the hospital again, you know. or dead, right? Like I know that that's very morbid, it's so important to take care of you so that you can take care of others. And especially when you have kids, like there's no one that matters more than them. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, I get that. I definitely get that, you know. ⁓ Listeners will learn now that our oldest kids are about a week apart. And so we have walked that journey together every step of the way along with a great group of moms. ⁓ I really love what you said about that because this... This show is about, like many of the folks, it's about communication, but many of folks on here are communications professionals. That's the context in which we come on this show. ⁓ But at the end of the day, we're people and we bring our own abilities and biases and beliefs and perspectives, of, you know, all of that into the mix and. ⁓ It really resonate with what you said about not just for your kids, but the community. And I think about industry as well of showing like almost being this. in the way in which you want patients to be taken care of, taking that step for yourself. Sara Noonan: Yeah, yeah, I have to show up for myself as I would want or had told people to show up for themselves. And, you know, I really, it took me a good, I'll say like maybe three years to get to that point. But, ⁓ you know, I hope that even that step has made an impact on someone's life. And, you know, I've shared it on LinkedIn, which again, that felt very taboo and weird to me at first. But, you know, my husband encouraged me. He was like, you should share. Kristen Sweeney: up for themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sara Noonan: you know, what you've been going through, because I think that people would learn something from this experience. you know, and it's, it's true, I think that When you see what others are doing, our personalities, our personas on social media, LinkedIn included, can be very defined. And we don't really go outside of those boundaries. I was the go-getter. was the dedicated, loyal employee. I did everything I could to make a difference. And then being able to share something so vulnerable that was... But I also had a... step back, you know, I might've been those things and I still can be, but instead of being a go-getter at work, I'm a go-getter for my health. I'm going to my doctors and advocating for myself now. I go into appointments with my spreadsheet of here's all the things I've experienced since we last saw each other. Here's all the meds I'm on. Here's the side effects. Here's the experiences I'm having with insurance. This is what I want to talk about. And like, I'm able to do that for myself. I also noted a shift. in the way that my doctors worked with me, when I stopped just coming in and telling them that I was doing okay and, you know, I was tired, but, you know, I was just getting through it day by day. When I took the moment to say, I need help, I had to stop working because I don't feel well and I feel awful every single day. They jumped into action. Imagine if I said that two years ago, what my life could have been like, what therapies I could have tried. you know, experiences I might have gone through if I had just done that two years ago, but it took such a big action for me to do that and say that. And if I could tell any patient like out there now, it would just be go tell them how this impacts your life today. Just tell them how much, you know, you're not sleeping or you are sleeping, how much, you know, Your drugs are making an impact on your ability to do X, Y, Z. Like there's so much here that we can do together if we're just upfront with one another about it. And we let them know my quality of life is not what it was before and I no longer like it. Like it's okay to say those words. And I think we don't want to burden our doctors sometimes. Go burden your doctors. Go tell them what's going on. They want to help you. They want you to feel better. And if they don't know how bad it is, they can't do it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, and we'll all be patients, right? We may not all have a rare disease diagnosis, but we will all be or have been in that situation. ⁓ I have a physician right now. It's an allergist, and she is that person independently. She's like, I want to do this and this and this, and I want to try this and this. Because I came in, and I was like, I have horrible allergies. And she didn't write it off, and she wasn't like, Sara Noonan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: that's the best it's going to be for you. She was like, I'm making these seven changes and, and, and, and, but, know, to your point, you're also dealing with individual personalities and constraints and things. so being that advocate for yourself and being able to say, here's what it is. That doesn't mean it's a magic pill to fix all of those things, but Sara Noonan: Yeah. Yes! Exactly. Kristen Sweeney: You also don't know what connections they might be able to make or small adjustments that might be able to change things. This has been a really, powerful conversation. So thank you. I want to thank you before we move into our lightning round section, something a little bit on the lighter side. But I really appreciate it, Sarah. All right. Sara Noonan: I know exactly. No, it's been great. Kristen Sweeney: So we're going to transition now to the last word. This is our lightning round section. Every guest here gets the same five questions to answer. So just go with your gut on these. you ready? Question one, what is your favorite word to say out loud? Sara Noonan: Ready. I'm ready. I asked my husband because I was like, which word do I just say all the time? And he said, James. so. Kristen Sweeney: sweet! ⁓ Sara Noonan: Jokes aside, I was thinking about it though. And I think, you know, one thing, maybe not out loud, but sort of my mantra has been breathe. I think about it in yoga. I think about it during stressful situations. I think about it literally because, you know, I'm dealing with lung issues and, you know, breaths and oxygen are just so important. And so it's been sort of my like internal monologue. And I was like, you know what, this is going to be my outer monologue now. I'm going to say it more often. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. What's a word you know from reading but you maybe don't want to say it out loud because you're not sure how to pronounce it? Sara Noonan: Okay, I'm not going to give you an exact word, but this was inspired by your oldest. There was a book at your house that I tried to read her once. Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ no. Sara Noonan: And it was P is for pterodactyl, the worst alpha book ever. I will tell you that I hated that book so much that I would not finish it. And I put it down because there are so many words in there that made my brain just spin ⁓ that that entire book. Kristen Sweeney: Yes, yes, I love that. That's excellent. How about a phrase or saying you wish could be retired for good? Sara Noonan: Press your test. Kristen Sweeney: Mmm, why? Sara Noonan: It just gets said too often. It's one of the things where I'm like, ⁓ no, don't say that, stop. Kristen Sweeney: Okay, great, great. Hahaha What's a communication principle or practice you're willing to your flag on? Sara Noonan: Oh my God, I'm really old school. I love AP style, but maybe AP style from like 2008. So maybe it has changed, but I don't use the Oxford comma. Kristen Sweeney: Ha ha ha ha! Sara Noonan: I'm sorry, it's been ingrained in me. I can't use it. It's so hard. Sometimes I know I need to, but. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I am a lover of the Oxford comma. I, for too long, from working in a law office, though, did two spaces after a period, and I mean, was years before I finally gave that up. So, I get it. Hold on. Hold on. And what's the last thing you read, heard, or watched that really stuck with you? Sara Noonan: I, yeah, you know, you know, I get it. I will hold it forever. So I have been doing a ton of reading as I've shared, I'm a big reader, but I just finished this book called Tress of the Emerald Sea. And it was so like whimsical and transportive. Like I just love the type of storytelling where you feel like you're there. And that's what that book did for me. Not every book is gonna do that. ⁓ And so when you get one that really does that, I was just like over the moon. with it. Now I'm recommending it to everyone. So I was like, what better way to do it than say it on a podcast? So trust of the Emerald Sea. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Amazing, amazing. Yes, and we always do ⁓ a wrap up of these after every season too where we publish all of these recommendations in particular. I'm just going to get some. Yeah. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. Before I let you go, if our listeners want to find you, what's a place where they can connect with you? Sara Noonan: Amazing, amazing. So they can certainly find me on LinkedIn. Or if you're interested in my artwork, I recently launched an Instagram where I've been posting my watercolors ⁓ and that is Sarah Noonan Art. No age. Kristen Sweeney: Yes! And Sarah is a very talented artist. She's drawn some wonderful things for my kids. Awesome. Sarah, thank you so much. Really, it was wonderful having you today. Sara Noonan: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Thanks, Kristin. I'm just glad to be here.