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The Children We Leave Behind with Dr. Geoff Masters AO · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Doctor Jeff Masters, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you pleasure to be here.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: This is going to be on all things education and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: then and you're the right person because you were head
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of the Australian Council for Education Research for over twenty
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: five years.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: You just left that post recently.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Just for our listeners, just fill in your background a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: little bit, because I want our listeners to just get
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a sense of who we're talking to and what you've
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: done in this space.
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  Speaker 4: Well, originally Paul I was a science teacher, so I
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: taught secondary school science. But my real passion was in research,
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: and so I pursued her studies in research. I went
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: to the University of Chicago, studied quantitative research methods, statistics,
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: call analysis, measurement, and the rest of my career has
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: really been in that area of educational research as a
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: researcher and as you say, for many years now as
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  Speaker 4: a leader of the major national educational research organization in Australia.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: And how does that organization, how does it just give
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: our listeners a sense of how that helps to share
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: education policy. Who you interferce with, you know, what are
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: some of the tensions involved as well?
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Well?
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  Speaker 4: The organization undertakes a broad range of educational research, so
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: it's looking at policy questions. It's a not for profit company,
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  Speaker 4: so it's not owned by government. It's independent of government,
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: but it undertakes work that it is commissioned to undertake,
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  Speaker 4: and a lot of it is for government's national governments,
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  Speaker 4: state governments, looking at whole range of policy questions relating
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: to primarily school education, a little bit of early childhood,
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: some higher education, but mainly school education. And it does
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: a lot of work in the area of assessing and
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: monitoring learning, looking at how students are performing, different categories
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: of students are performing.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: So that's the kind of work it does.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: Okay, So if we start from I think, so the book.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: That we are going to discuss, I've got right here,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: and it's The Children We Leave Behind. So it's really
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: focusing on kids obviously who get left behind in the
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: education system. But what what did you observe over the
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: years that compelled you to write this book?
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  Speaker 4: Yes, so obviously in the role that I had, I
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  Speaker 4: was undertaking quite a bit of research. I was reading
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  Speaker 4: a lot of research literature, I was reflecting, and over
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: that period of time, I guess I was reflecting Paul
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  Speaker 4: on two major questions. One was what are we teaching
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: students about learning itself? And we might want to come
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: back and talk about that a little, but I think
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: there are all sorts of lessons or things that we're
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: teaching students about learning that we often don't intend to
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: teach them. And the second question is what are we
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: teaching students about themselves as learners? And again, I think
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: there are many things that we teach students not only
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: about the learning process, but about themselves as learners, and
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  Speaker 4: they're not always.
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  Speaker 2: Positive things that we're teaching.
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  Speaker 4: So they're framing questions, I guess, And in the book
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: that you just referred to, I think about how this
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  Speaker 4: is not These questions that I'm asking are not reflections
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: on what teachers are doing. Usually they're not reflections on
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: what schools are doing. They're really reflections on how we
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: organize learning the system, the system, the system itself, the
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: structures that we put in place, so how we organize learning,
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  Speaker 4: but how we define what it means to learn successfully.
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  Speaker 4: These are out of the control usually of schools and teachers,
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  Speaker 4: and they're shaped by things like the curriculum, by assessment
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  Speaker 4: and examination processes and expectations, procedures for reporting student learning.
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  Speaker 4: All these things shape the context in which teachers and
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: schools work.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely, So, Look, let's let's go back to those two
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  Speaker 1: questions that actually compelled you to write the book. So, firstly,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: what does this we when you say we the system,
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  Speaker 1: So what does this system currently teach kids about learning?
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  Speaker 1: What's the good bet that we teach them?
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  Speaker 3: And what are the not or good bets?
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  Speaker 4: Well, there are lots of good things that we teach
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  Speaker 4: them about learning, I guess, but I wanted to focus
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  Speaker 4: particularly on what I think are concerns. One thing that
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: we often teach students is that learning is for somebody else.
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  Speaker 4: It's not motivated by their own concerns, their own interests,
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  Speaker 4: it's not intrinsically motivated, if you like. But what they're
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: learning is what they're being told they have to learn
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  Speaker 4: or they need to learn something that specified even outside
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  Speaker 4: the school, by the curriculum. And so the message that
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: students are getting. One of the messages that students are
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  Speaker 4: getting is that learning is to pass a test or
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  Speaker 4: to pass an examination, to satisfy somebody else, to satisfy parents,
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  Speaker 4: to satisfy the teacher, but it's not intrinsically motivated. Something
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  Speaker 4: else I think that we teach students unintentionally is that
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  Speaker 4: the mind is separate from the body, that learning is cognitive,
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  Speaker 4: And of course, in the real world people learn by doing.
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  Speaker 4: It involves both the mind and the body. But in
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  Speaker 4: schools we tend to say the body doesn't need to
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  Speaker 4: be part of this. Put it to one side. If
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  Speaker 4: you're you know, when I went to school, if you
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  Speaker 4: were fidgeting at your desk, you were told to sit
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  Speaker 4: on your hands.
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  Speaker 3: And now now you be diagnosed with ADHD.
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  Speaker 4: Right, so exactly there'd be some diagnosis, So sit still.
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  Speaker 2: In your desk.
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  Speaker 4: So I think what we're seeing from the whole body
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  Speaker 4: of research is the importance of thinking about learning as
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  Speaker 4: involving both the mind and the body. And what school
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  Speaker 4: has done and over centuries, probably, but at least decades,
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  Speaker 4: is to separate those and pretend that learning is simply cognitive.
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  Speaker 2: So that's the second thing.
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  Speaker 4: The third thing is that a message that we send
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  Speaker 4: is that learning is something to be done in isolation.
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  Speaker 2: It's an individual activity.
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  Speaker 4: In fact, it can often be presented as a competitive activity,
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  Speaker 4: as you learn learning to compete with fellow students. And
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  Speaker 4: again there's a mismatch there between the kinds of learning
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  Speaker 4: that we promote in schools and the way that learning
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  Speaker 4: occurs in real life. As I've been saying, learning in
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  Speaker 4: real life is motivated by a problem that we want
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  Speaker 4: to solve or something that we want to learn. It
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  Speaker 4: involves doing so body as well as mind. But it
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  Speaker 4: also is done often collaboratively, done with others, not done
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  Speaker 4: in isolation from others, or done competitively. And then finally,
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  Speaker 4: a message I think that we send students is that
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  Speaker 4: learning is a matter of mastering individual bodies of content.
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  Speaker 4: So there's a curriculum that might be a topic that
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: students are taught, it might be the whole year level curriculum,
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  Speaker 4: but it's a body of content.
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  Speaker 2: That the teacher teaches.
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  Speaker 4: As a student, I need to learn as much as
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  Speaker 4: I can of what the teacher teaches and then assessed
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  Speaker 4: on it, tested on it, graded on how I perform,
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  Speaker 4: and then we move on to the next body of content,
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  Speaker 4: and it's as though often nothing has happened in the past.
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  Speaker 4: It's a fresh start on this new body of content.
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  Speaker 4: And what we know about learning, of course, is that
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  Speaker 4: it is not like that. Learning in the real world
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  Speaker 4: is cumulative. New learning builds on prior learning. Prerequisites are
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: very important, prerequisite knowledge to be able to learn new things.
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  Speaker 4: So learning is not just a matter of mastering a
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: body of content, being graded on it, and then moving
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  Speaker 4: on to the next thing. So I'm sure there are
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  Speaker 4: many other things as well, but there are just a
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  Speaker 4: handful of messages that are not always positive that we
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  Speaker 4: send students about the nature of learning.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Is this done better that you know, what we teach
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  Speaker 1: kids about learning? So you've just talked about some of
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: the issues. Is it done better or worse at certain
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: stages of the education, like from you know, the early
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: childhood to you know, primary school, comparing secondary school and
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: then university and what's your thoughts on you know, who's
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  Speaker 1: better who's worse?
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  Speaker 3: From this perspective, yeah, I think there is.
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  Speaker 2: A real difference across the years of school.
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  Speaker 4: By the time one gets to the final years of school,
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  Speaker 4: it is often very much a matter of performance learning
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  Speaker 4: what's specified in the curriculum, demonstrating it in an external examination.
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  Speaker 4: In the very early years of school, I think teachers
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  Speaker 4: are able to do a better job and do a
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  Speaker 4: better job of promoting a more positive view of learning
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  Speaker 4: as as interactive, as more connected to the real world.
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  Speaker 3: That was kind of my gut feel.
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  Speaker 1: And then when we get to university and do they
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  Speaker 1: do a better job of teaching students actually preparing them
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  Speaker 1: for the real world. And I'm guessing under that question
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  Speaker 1: is it probably depends on what subject and what university,
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  Speaker 1: But is there what's your observations about the university system
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  Speaker 1: and how that prepars students to go into the real world.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, well, I.
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  Speaker 4: Guess my response to that, as you were anticipating, would
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  Speaker 4: be that it varies across university courses. But you know,
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  Speaker 4: much learning at university is focused on preparation for a
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  Speaker 4: particular career, particular profession for example, so to the extent
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  Speaker 4: that working in that profession becomes the person's real world.
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  Speaker 4: It is very much a preparation for that real world.
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  Speaker 4: But often in schools, students can't see the relevance of
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  Speaker 4: what they're being taught. They often say, what's this got
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  Speaker 4: to do with me? How's this going to.
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  Speaker 2: Help me now in my life or in the future.
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  Speaker 4: I just don't see the relevance, and that leads, of
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  Speaker 4: course to lack of commitment. It leads to disengagement. Students
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  Speaker 4: dropping out or switching off.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually that leads us in to that next question.
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  Speaker 3: It's a very nice segue about what.
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  Speaker 1: Do we teach students about themselves with the current education process.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so, I think often what we end up
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  Speaker 4: telling students is what kinds of learners they are? Are
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  Speaker 4: they better learners or worse learners? Students get this message.
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  Speaker 4: For example, if a student receives a D year after
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  Speaker 4: year in a particular subject, then they're not able to
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  Speaker 4: see the progress they're making and the absolute progress they're
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  Speaker 4: making in that subject, but they also potentially get a
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  Speaker 4: message that there's something stable about their ability to learn
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  Speaker 4: in that case they're a D student, or at the
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  Speaker 4: other extreme, that they're inherently an a student. And I
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  Speaker 4: don't think they're helpful messages to be giving students. The
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  Speaker 4: message I believe we should be giving every student is
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  Speaker 4: that everybody is with effort, obviously and appropriate support, everybody
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  Speaker 4: is capable of making good progress in their learning, and
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  Speaker 4: everybody should be expected to make good progress in their learning.
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  Speaker 4: They may not all be at the same point at
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  Speaker 4: the same time, so they're not necessarily progressing in lockstep,
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  Speaker 4: but everybody should be expected to make good progress from
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  Speaker 4: the point that they're at and really whatever that point is,
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  Speaker 4: and the underlying belief and the underlying message should be
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  Speaker 4: that every student is capable of making progress in their
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  Speaker 4: learning if we can get the conditions right and if
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  Speaker 4: we can motivate them to make the effort that's required
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  Speaker 4: to engage. So the first message I think that we
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  Speaker 4: often send students is that there's something stable about their
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: ability to learn. And many students get the message that
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  Speaker 4: they're learners, and they get that message, particularly in the
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  Speaker 4: middle years of school, and they just disengage. So the
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  Speaker 4: levels of disengagement are huge, you know, forty to fifty
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  Speaker 4: percent of students, some people will argue, are disengaged in
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  Speaker 4: one way or another in those middle years of school.
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  Speaker 2: The other thing is we teach students. I think I
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  Speaker 2: said this before, but we teach.
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  Speaker 4: Students that learning is not something they should expect to
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: have control over. It's something that is done to them.
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  Speaker 4: And so we don't often encourage a sense of agency students.
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  Speaker 4: Students are told what to learn, when to learn it.
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  Speaker 4: They don't develop an understanding of themselves as agentic learners,
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  Speaker 4: having a degree of control over what they decide to learn.
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  Speaker 4: Of course, outside school, they do this all the time.
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  Speaker 4: Outside school, they're teaching themselves things. They're learning things motivated
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  Speaker 4: by their interests, and they do have a belief that
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  Speaker 4: they're capable of learning. But within schools, I think we often,
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: you know, have a negative impact on that belief that
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: students are every student is capable of learning.
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  Speaker 2: And then related to all of that is.
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  Speaker 4: The way that within schools we judge success on the
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: basis of how students perform against age expectations. And this
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  Speaker 4: for me, is a big issue, and it's a big
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: issue in the book that you showed them, Intigo. I
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: think what people don't always understand is just how much
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: variability there is within age groups or year levels within
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: any year of school. What we find when we look
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: carefully at the data, and this is basically an international observation,
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  Speaker 4: what we find is that the most advanced students, the
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: most advanced ten percent of students, are about five to
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  Speaker 4: six years ahead.
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  Speaker 2: Of the least advanced ten.
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  Speaker 1: Five to six years within within.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: The year levels.
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  Speaker 4: That's certainly true in mathematics, it's certainly true in reading.
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  Speaker 4: It appears to be true in other areas for which
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: we can get good measures, but it's certainly true in
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: those core areas like reading and mathematics, and so people
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: don't always understand that that's the variability that exists within
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: each year of school. And of course, coming back to
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: the structures within which schools and teachers work, the expectation
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: is that teachers will teach the curriculum for the year level.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, as you're talking about this, I'm going, oh my god,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, just you saying that and what we've talked
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: about so far, I just came to the conclusion that
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: the system is complet really not fit for purpose.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely agreeable.
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  Speaker 4: Many of us, I think now who've reflected on this
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  Speaker 4: belief that there's a need for real transformation of the system.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: And on this point I've just been discussing. Of course,
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: if there's that amount of variability within a year group,
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: it's very very difficult for one teacher to handle that.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: It's not yeah, and it's not just I mean, there's
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: two issues going on here really that are simultaneous. It's
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: that that if the teacher's trying to teach one thing,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: that the students who are far advanced are actually kind
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: of getting held back and getting bored, and then the
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: ones who are behind, as you say, they lose motivation.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, you talked about intrinsic motivation. The opposite of
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that on the self determination spectrum is is a motivation.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: And and then what parents will often do, it's dangle
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: a reward at the kids that you know, if you
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: do well, I'll buy you this, and that then can
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: sabotize intrinsic motivation as well. You know, we're in other
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: determined extrinsic motivation here, and so it's it's just, I mean, god,
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  Speaker 1: there's so many mind fields here, really, isn't there.
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  Speaker 2: So I mean, well, well, absolutely, and what's the answer.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, that's what, like, what the hell do we I mean,
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  Speaker 5: this really does call for a complete redesign of of
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: the entire system, doesn't it.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: And and that's what my I mean, others have written
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: about this too, but that's what my book argues for.
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  Speaker 2: It argues that we do.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Need a redesign of the system because I believe and
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: I know actually that there are many students in our
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: schools currently who are at both ends of that spectrum
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: that you were describing. There are many students today out
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: there in school who are being presented with material that
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: they're not even close to being ready to learn because
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: they're that prerequisite knowledge, and so the whole process becomes
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: totally frustrating for them. And there are others who are
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: being taught the year level curriculum, but they're ready for
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: much more significant challenges, and so they, as you said,
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: they become bored, frustrated. And I think there are many
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: many students in our schools in that situation. So what
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: I argue for in the book is that we need
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: to really stop and think about this traditional practice of
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: saying we can infer students' needs they're learning needs from
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: their marriage. We really need to say, we need to
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: different system that says where is this individual up to
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: in their learning? What point have they reached, regardless of
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: their age, and what does that mean for what comes next?
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: What would be a challenging stretch goal for that particular
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: child's next step in learning?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Which makes perfect sense, right, But in order to do that,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: not only do you need to reorganize the classes in
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the year levels, but you need to reorganize the.
• 20:35
  Speaker 6: Assessment structure, wouldn't you, Well, I think the basic purpose
• 20:40
  Speaker 6: of assessment would change because the traditional purpose of assessment
• 20:44
  Speaker 6: asks the question how well have you learned what I've
• 20:47
  Speaker 6: just taught?
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: What I'm talking about is a different question. The question
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: that assessment would be designed to answer is where are
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: you up to in your learning?
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: What point have you reached? What does that mean for
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: what comes next?
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  Speaker 4: And what progress have you made since last time I
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: looked at this? And again, this is something we don't
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: do very well in schools. We don't do a good
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: job of helping students and parents and teachers, I guess,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: see the progress or the growth that individual students make
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: over extended periods of time. And this comes back to
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: my point about grades and getting a D year after year.
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: A D doesn't help me see that I'm in an
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: absolute sense progressing in this area of learning. We need
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: a different frame of reference, a roadmap of some kind
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: that helps me see the point that I'm now at,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: where I've come from, and what comes next. And that
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: is a radical transformation, a radical redesign of the way
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: that we approach learnings.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: It is quite a radical systematic like like like just
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: really broad read.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Design, isn't it.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: But but to bring it back to to motivation, as
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: you say, if a kid is not saying that they're progressing,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: and you know, their self efficacy is going to be done,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: and that is then going to.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: Affect their motivation to do more work.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: And then to your point, which you're right extensively in
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: the book, they drop out, they get left behind, whereas
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: if that that child was given, you know, their own
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: personal journey and actually seeing some progress. You know, success
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: has no orphan, right and and you know that that's
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: one of the drivers, one of the key drivers of
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: motivation is the belief that what I'm doing is making
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: a difference, and that and that that whole mastery process.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, and as I say, I think we don't always
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: help students say that. We we send them a negative message,
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: often that they've failed or they haven't performed up to expectation,
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: and we don't help them see the progress they're making.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: And I think one of the best ways to build
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: self efficacy as a learner is to help students see
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: that they are making progress.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, have a listened.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: To this recording of your reading a year ago or
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: six months ago, have a look at this sample of
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: your writing from two years ago. Look at the progress
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: that you've been making. So I don't think we do
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: that terribly well. In general, in schools, we don't help
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: students see the progress they're making. Rather, we grade them
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: on chunks of content that we present and then move
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: on to the next chunk.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned the word the expectation. I remember years ago,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: and I'm a bit cloudy on the detail on it,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: but I think you'll be all over it like a
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: spider monkey. I remember reading that a teacher's expectation of
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: a student has a huge influence on they're actual outcomes.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I that if a teacher thinks that little Johnny is
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: actually going to do well, and has that expectation and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: the inference of that, then little Johnny will actually get
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: to that level or is more likely to get to
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: that level. And conversely, if another teacher thinks that that
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: little Johnny's not going to do well, he generally doesn't
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: do well. And am I correct in my memory assessment
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: of that and give us a bit more color to it.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: Yes, Yes, there is a body of research to support
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: what you're saying. Expectations do play a very important role.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: And if a teacher has low expectations of a student,
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: if they've written them off as being a poor learner,
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: then they often will not challenge them at an appropriate level.
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: They won't stretch and extend them in the way that
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: they could be stretched and extended. So yeah, expectations definitely
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: do color the experiences that students have in schools. And
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: of course, coming back to the point we were discussing before,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: if your expectation is simply that everybody masters the content
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: that someone's judged appropriate for their age, that can miss
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: the target very seriously too, so that the challenge we're
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: talking about is not just a challenge for classroom teachers,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: it's really a challenge.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: For whole schools.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Schools need to think about how they respond to the
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: huge variability that teachers are trying to deal with now.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: And it's also a challenge for systems. For governments and
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: school systems, they've created structures based on assumptions that the
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: research tells us are just wrong. It's not the case
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: that all children of the same age are more or
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: less ready for the same learning far as far from
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: the case.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: How much autonomy do schools have in all of this?
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: And so I'll give you an example when when Oscar
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: was my little guy, when he was quite little, we
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: moved him from from one school to local primary school
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: and the head there was absolutely brilliant, right, and that
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: he went into I think he was in maybe year
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: three and some of the kids, the kids who were
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: a little bit had a bit of a better grasp
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: of it. They had those composite classes where there was
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: two years together, and some of the kids who were
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: a little bit more competent would actually teach the younger kids.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And when Oscar came home and told me about I
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: was just like, oh my god, this is amazing. Why
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: isn't every school doing that? So, I mean, would something
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: like that help? And then how much autonomy does s
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: gools have within this system and within that line and
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: all of that.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a good question.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: Obviously, there are external constraints imposed by the curriculum, by examinations,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: assessment procedures, expectations for how reporting should occur. But in general,
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: I think schools have more autonomy than many of them realize.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: They can make decisions, and occasionally you'll see brave principles
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: making decisions to really push the boundaries and do whatever
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: they can within the constraints that have just been describing
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: externally imposed constraints.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: And doing things like.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: Thinking differently about the way that learning is organized within
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: the school. For example, we know that there's huge variability
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: within year seven, say, mathematics, huge ability within year eight mathematics.
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: What if instead of having the year seven teacher just
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: teach the year seven curriculum to everybody, and the year
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: eight teacher teach the year eight mathematics curriculum to everybody,
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: what if those two teachers work together to address the
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: needs of the students across that two year age span,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: Because there'll be many, many students in year eight who
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: are still performing at the level of many year seven students,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: and vice versa. So this is just an example of
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: how a school might think differently about how it organizes
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: learning within the school. I'm not arguing here, Paul, for
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: completely doing away with age based groupings as students move
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: through school. I think there are good reasons, social reasons
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: to keep students of the same age together as they
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: advance through school.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: But the real.
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: Challenge is to recognize and address the reality that within
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: each age group there's huge variability that's not currently adequately
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: addressed in schools.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: And it's signed to me like a pretty thorny problem,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: right because, as you rightly say, you want to keep
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: the kids together of the CMAGE group, but then you
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: know they're at different points in their learning journey, so
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: you can't really have one kid in a year nine
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: class and another kid in a year seven class when
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: they're both in year I think that gets tricky. Are
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: there any countries around the world that are doing a
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: better job of this, and if so, what sort of
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: things are they doing that we can learn from.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: Yes, there are some countries that are doing things differently.
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: There are some that are looking at exactly what I
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: was describing a minute ago, thinking not in terms of
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: individual year levels, but in terms of spans, you know,
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: so two or three year spans, looking at children from
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: you know, the prep year through to year two. For example,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: in Finland, when I was there last, which was a
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: few years ago, they were talking about treating that three
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: year span as one phase of schooling and addressing the
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: needs of individual learners with it. So rather than just
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: saying you're a year one student, so I know what
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: you're ready for, we'll look at where individuals over that
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: three year span are actually up to and will try
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: to better target their needs.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: And so so Jeff for for that.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: So there might be one group who's over in this
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: corner learning a particular thing, and then another group who's
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: somewhere else learning learning something at a lower level, and
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: there's a reintervia is within that.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's all.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: These things are possibilities. I think that could explore. The
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: thing we don't want to do is to go back
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: to recreating streams where students are locked in forever, where
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: the streams put a ceiling on how far individuals can
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: progress in their learning. We need to think in terms
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: of a continuum of learning that all students are on,
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: but recognize that students of the same age are going
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: to be at vastly different points on that continuum, and
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: think about how we best address their needs. So, yes,
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: there are countries that are trying to do different things.
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: Hong Kong is a country that treats the final years
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: of school more as a single phase over two or
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: three years. In Wales, they have rethought the curriculum so
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: that students don't just progress from one year level curriculum
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: to the next, move between what they call progression steps.
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: So students of the same age can be at different
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: steps on this. But it's it's all challenging to implement
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: in practice.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the logistics that it becomes a logistical nightmare,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: doesn't it.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: It can, it can, But and a response of some
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: people will be to say, well, we just can't do
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: that within the current structures.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Our timetable won't. Our timetable won't allow that. That's right,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: of course, of course it won't. It needs a different
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: way of thinking.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, What else did you learn from Finland?
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Because they, you know, can consistently pop up as as
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: really good in terms of education. I think am I
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: correct in saying that their teachers have to have a
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: master's degree and they are better paid.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, the teachers. That that's correct.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: The teachers do have a master's degree. The important thing,
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: One of the important things I think in Finland is
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: that their teachers are very well prepared before they go
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: out to teach, So they have very high levels of
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: knowledge of the subjects that they teach. They will often
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: study those subjects in faculties, in universities that teach those subjects,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: so they're very well prepared in the subjects. They're very
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: well prepared in terms of pedagogy, and once they go out,
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: the government is prepared to go out into schools, the
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: government is prepared to give them a.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Pretty high level of autonomy.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: They consider that they've been well prepared, and they trust
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: their judgment about how to deal with the needs of
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: the students in front of them. Drawing on they're very deep,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: as I say, content knowledge and pedagogical knowledge. What you
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: see in quite an number of countries currently is pretty
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: much the opposite of that, particularly English speaking some English
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: speaking countries. What you see in those countries is perhaps
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: arising out of concern over declining or stagnating performances.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: They're tightening down and so they're trying.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: To be more controlling.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: It's not only telling teachers what they should teach, when
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: they should teach it, but increasingly how they should teach it,
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: and giving them in some cases externally developed scripted lessons
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: a set of PowerPoint slides, for example, and I talk
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: about this in the book, but.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Saying to teach us, this is how you will do it.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: You will work your way through this set of PowerPoint slides,
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: and that undermines the professionalism of teachers, makes teaching, makes
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: teaching a much less attractive career, much less attractive occupation,
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: and that's being reflected in what teachers say about their
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: levels of satisfaction and also the rates at which they're
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: leaving the profession.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: I believe so, yeah, I mean it is.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: It is the complete opposite of autonomy. It is it
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: is being controlled. And we know, you know from I
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: had a guest on Professor Richard Ryan, who you're probably
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: familiar with self determination theory, and you know those three
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: basic human needs are autonomy, mastery, and relatedness, and you
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: take autonomy away. I mean, anybody who's listened to this,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: who's ever been micromanaged in a job, just knows how
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: horrible is and how stressful and how demotivating. And what
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing from you is that that we are reacting
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: to not great results, that maybe because the system isn't
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: well as we're reacting to that by exerting more control
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: and giving teachers less autonomy.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's exactly right.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: Well, it's not true everywhere, but there's a real trend
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: in that direction in places like England, the US, Australia
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: and New Zealand. You can see that happening, as is
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: more prescription of what teachers should be doing. And often
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: the rationale is that, well we're now implementing evidence based coaches,
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: and sometimes that's true.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: We need more explicit teaching.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: But having every student learned the same things at the
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: same time for the same amount of time, which is
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: the consequence of this, is not explicit teaching. It's just standardization,
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: and it doesn't work for many many.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Students explicit teaching.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: Explicit teaching is a good thing if it's well targeted
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: on what an individual needs, but if it's interpreted as
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: just doing the same thing for everybody at the same time,
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: it's not helpful.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Particularly in the backdrop of what you said about the
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: age spread within a particular year group. I mean, it
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: just it just comes across as stargraving bunkers in the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: life of that data, right, And what can I don't
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: know if you explored this in your research, but what
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: can parents do to help kids be more engaged in
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: their learning? Because I think the engagement the motivation that,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: you know, what can they do to move them along
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: the motivation continuum a bit towards intrinsic motivation.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: I think part of the answer is to work with
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: the classroom teacher to the extent that it's possible. I'm thinking,
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: particularly in primary school here I guess, but work with
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: the teacher to develop an understanding of where the child
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: world is up to in his or her learning.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Where does the teacher think they're up to? What comes next?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: What you know?
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: What will they be learning next? What can I as
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: a parent do to support them in that learning? How
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: can we have a conversation about my child and what
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: the challenges are they're facing, what I think they're good at,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: what I think they're still struggling with. So I think
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: there are things that parents can do if they get
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: more involved, work more directly with the school to think
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: about where individuals are up to and what they can
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: do to support their further growth.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Are we good enough at accommodating different learning styles.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Of students well?
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: In the literature, there's quite a debate around this question
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: of whether students really do for as significantly as some
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: people argue in their learning styles.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: But I think what we need to.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: Do within schools is provide multiple ways for students to learn.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Whether the differences in learning styles really exist and are
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: as significant as some people argue. It's important that there's
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: not just one approach to learning. You know, there will
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: be times when it is appropriate for the teacher to
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: stand at the front of the room and just teach something.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: But there will be other times when it's more appropriate
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: for students to work together, to learn together, collaborate, work
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: on projects together, to move around and do things together.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, there are different approaches.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: To learning, and I think most students probably benefit from
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: a range of approaches.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: No, my last question, which is a big one, and
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: you can take as long as you want on this,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: and look, you've already give us some on this, but
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: let's just say you are the education czar in Australia
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: or whatever, pick your country, and you have.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: You've got complete.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Control to redesign everything from top to bottom. What are
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: some of the big things that you would do well.
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: I think my book starts to answer that question. Actually,
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: I don't think I would be rushing to try to
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: transform everything on a short timeline. I think the kinds
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: of changes we're talking about are so significant that they
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: require time. They require learning as we go along and
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: try things out. They require input and effort not only
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: at this classroom level and the school level, but at
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: the level of school systems.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: So if I were if I had.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: More control than I do, if I were the Czara,
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: as you say, I think what I would be arguing
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: for is let's rethink how we organize learning, maybe one
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: subject at a time.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Let's start with something like mathematics. And here's an idea, Paul.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: When people learn music, it happens outside school primarily, but
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: when they learn music, they move through a sequence of
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: levels or grades. And a person can be at grade
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: four piano whether they're five years old or fifteen or
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: eighty five, probably because level four piano represents an absolute
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: level of proficiency, and students are taught at the level
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: supported learn, are assessed when they feel ready to demonstrate
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: that they've mastered that level and move on to the
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: next level. That's a kind of roadmap that we provide,
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: or that it has been built for music. But you
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: can find similar roadmaps in languages where people move through
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: sequence of levels of proficiency of increasing language competence. You
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: can find it in areas like swimming and so on,
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: where the levels are not tied to ages, they're not
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: tied to grades. And so my question is, what if
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: we did that in mathematics as a starting point, What
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: if we said students are at different points in their
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: learning of mathematics, and they're moving through a sequence of
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: levels of increasing knowledge and skill. They're not all at
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: the same point at the same time. They don't move
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: from one level to the next in lockstep. But let's
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: instead of organizing the mathematics curriculum into year levels, what
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: if we organized it into proficiency levels and we had
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: students move through those proficiency levels when they were ready,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: when they demonstrated mastery of a level and were ready
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: to move on to the next. That way, we could
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: better target teaching on where individuals are at. And we
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: know that's the key to better learning. It's to better
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: target where individuals are at, meet them in their zones
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: of proximal development, as Vagotski called it, those sweet spots
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: beyond their comfort zones, but not so far ahead of
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: them that they're going to struggle and become frustrated.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: So we'd be better able to meet individuals.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: Where they are, and we would have a frame of
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: reference for thinking about the progress that individuals are making.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: You're now working at level five.
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: And you've almost mastered it, and by this time, you know,
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: in the year, in six months, i'd expect you to
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: be well into level You see what I'm saying, so
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: I would be saying it's time to rethink this age
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: based lockstep model of the curriculum that is serving so
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: many students so poorly, and to think about how we
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: better firstly identify and understand where individuals are and then
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: meet them at their point of need with challenging stretch
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: goals for further learning.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: And how do we use that frame of reference.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: Then that's the hierarchy of levels that I'm talking about,
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: to monitor the growth that individuals make and to share
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: that with parents and with students themselves as they progress
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: across the years of school. So you know, maybe what
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: I would do is I'd say let's start small, let's
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: start with one subject, let's think quite differently about it
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: and see if we can make it work.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: And then from a particularly having been and done some
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: research in Finland, are you supportive of the idea that
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: we need to lift the level of teachers and compensate
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: them accordingly, as in, you know, they should all be
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: you know, some of the best students that we have
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: rather than have the courses in particular in Australia have
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: lower a tars. Should we be bumping that up and
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: taking them through to masters levels and then compensating them accordingly.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: How much of a factor do you think that would play,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: because you then have to give them the autonomy, right
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: if they're highly skilled as well.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's I believe that's true.
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: But some people talk about how countries get into an
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: upward spiral or a downward spiral area. If you get
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: into an upward spiral, then teaching is more highly valued
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: and that attracts more competent people into teaching, or you
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: can go in the other direction and teaching is and yeah,
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: that's right, the rest of the bottom. And I think
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: in a number of countries what we've seen is a
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: downward spiral, and the question is how do you move
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: onto an upward spiral? Because it's absolutely true that in
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: a place like Finland and Estonia and there are other examples,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: teaching is extremely highly regarded. It's very competitive, you know,
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: it's up there with law and medicine in terms of
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: how it's perceived and the level of competition to enter it.
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: How do you get into that position? And of course
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: it's then attracting highly competent young school leavers to go
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: into teaching, which is what we need so. Yeah, salary,
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: of course is part of it. Many of the many
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: teachers don't go into teaching for the salary. They go
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: into it for other reasons. But remuneration is an important
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: part of this, and what a country needs to do,
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: I believe, is to remunerate at a level that makes
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: it attractive as attractive as other professions that people can
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: be going into after they've completed an undergraduate degree, for example.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look that that all makes perfect sense, And Jeff,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: it looks clearly. I knew it was a complex issue
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: having dealt a little bit with teachers, but having chater
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: with you is way more complex. Right, There's so many
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: layers that are all entangled in with each other, and
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: we've got a lot of work to do if we
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: don't want to stay in that rest to the bottom.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: I think I think that's pretty clear, isn't it.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: I think it is. We can't continue as we are.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: We need to think differently about what we're doing. We
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: need to think about what what messages we're sending about learning.
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: As I said, how we organize learning, how we define
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: what it means to learn successfully, what it.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Is we value what you know?
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Some of these countries I'm talking about like Estonia, begin
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: by saying what kind of society do we.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Want to be and what does that mean for the
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: kinds of citizens.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that that's actually a great starting point to think
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: that start with the end in mind right and in
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: design around that.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Jeff, there's been fascinating.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: So anybody who is whether you're a teacher or you're
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: a parent with a kid and you want to really
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: enhance their educational journey. The book is called The Children
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: We Leave Behind by doctor Jeff Masters. So, Jeff, where
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: else can we send people other than the book? As
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: there anywhere they can go to read more about you
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: or if you published any other stuff that people can read.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: Well, I have a blog world Class Learning Systems, so
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: people could access that they could get by the book
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: from Routledge in which I pulled some ideas together. They
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: would be the I mean I've written a lot and
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: published a lot over the years, but they would be
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: good starting points.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Jeff, thank you very much for your time. Keep
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: up the good work and hopefully you can influence.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: The system hopefully. Thanks Paul, Thanks Fa