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Friends with Intimacy · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:08
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansdell, and joining me today is Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Welcome, boys. Today we're talking about friends with intimacy. F W I. It's a term that I'm coining because it's only FWB and I did all sorts of googling and I couldn't find FWI friends with intimacy. It was not there. So I'm like, okay, this is going to be a gay Men's brotherhood term. So we're going to be exploring questions like, what is your experience with either friends with benefits or friends with intimacy? If you've already been exploring this, how do you maintain boundaries with friends you have benefits or intimacy with? And what are the advantages and disadvantages of having intimacy with friends? So, lots of loaded questions. I'm looking forward to unpacking these. So what we want you to get out of today's episode, really at the end of the day, is to create more opportunities for meaningful connection. The biggest complaint I hear in our community is, and in my private work is loneliness. It's the biggest thing. I can't find love, I can't find relationships. I can't find this. I'm lonely. Well, if we can provide more more at the buffet to be able to select from, then we're not going to be as hungry. Right? So this is an opportunity to explore a potential way of connecting that you might not have otherwise thought about. Before we start, if you are new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. Okay, so why I chose this topic? Well, I've been navigating this in my own life as a demisexual, Friends with benefits is not enough for me and I like to change the B into an I and bring intimacy into the equation. We all need connection as human beings and I think it's really important to have more selection of ways that we can connect with each other. It's the gift of being a gay man, in my opinion, is that we have the ability to be able to connect with each other as friends and we also have the ability to connect with each other as more than friends. And that more than friends is a very large category. It can be benefits, it can be intimacy, it can be marriage. It can be all the things that we want to explore in connection. So I want you to picture this for a moment. You are scrolling endlessly on Tinder or Grinder or whatever you use, and there's not a lot of people that you're vibing with. It's like maybe one in a hundred. And you finally set up a date with this person. You go on this date and it seems like, oh, like on paper things are going to be good. And while you're connecting, you're starting to realize, okay, there's some compatibility here, but not total compatibility. Maybe you're at 60% compatibility. So oftentimes, what do you do with that when you have 60% compatibility with someone, or let's say 75%. So it's not, not quite Mr. Right. He hasn't shown up yet. But there's this person in front of you that you have some compatibility with and there's an opportunity to have connection with this person. Most people are going to just be like, no, sorry, like this isn't the right fit. And we'll turn and go our separate ways. Meanwhile, you might have had a good connection, but it just wasn't the right fit for connecting. So what I've been learning personally is to not throw the baby out with the bath water. And if there is opportunity to turn the connection into something that could be nourishing, maybe it's not Mr. Right. Maybe you're not going to get married to this person, but maybe there's an opportunity to share in a beautiful friendship where it can become an intimate. And when we say friends with intimacy, it doesn't necessarily have to con out sex, right? That's a piece of it. If you wanted, it could be sexual intimacy, but intimacy could be deeper exploration, being vulnerable, being really authentic with the person that you're connecting with. So it's. There's different levels, I think, of what I'm talking about and I want this term to become more popular as a demisexual. I want there to be greater capacity in our community. I think friends with benefits is beautiful and I've done it in my life. And I've also had friends with benefits that have turned into friends with intimacy because it takes time to build intimacy with somebody. So there's, there's lots of options here. So I want people just to keep their mind open as we're, we're navigating this. And a couple questions I wrote down just for myself while I was thinking about this is how intimate is too intimate with a friends with Benefits. Some people might just say, hey, I'm just looking for fwb. I don't want anything more. No strings attached, Right? When is that point for you? When it starts to bleed into? If this is too intimate. Right. We need to scale things back. So that's one perspective that somebody might take in this conversation. The other conversation could be, what is not enough benefits in a friends with benefits. What if you start having deeper feelings for this person? You want to share intimacy with them, but they're not willing to turn the B into an I? Right. So these are just things that I've been grappling with. And I'm sure I'm not the only one grappling with some of these concepts. So let's hop into our first question. So what is your experience with either friends with benefits or friends with intimacy? And I'm gonna let Michael take this one.
• 5:21
  Speaker A: I'm gonna throw the question back at you though, first. Where do you draw the line between when is it benefits versus intimacy? Like, what's the difference?
• 5:31
  Speaker B: And that's kind of why I wanted to have this conversation. I think the B is physical.
• 5:35
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 5:36
  Speaker B: Friends with benefits is. Tends to be physical. It's like, this is somebody that I don't want a relationship with, but I want to have sex with them. That's like kind of the traditional definition of friends with benefits, in my opinion. So when you replace the B with an I, you're throwing in the physical, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual. So all four domains now suddenly become activated within this intimacy. Right. And it's kind of like you go back to the conversation we had, you and I, Michael, about it was sexual intimacy part one, part two. We define that you have intimacy, you have sexual intimacy, and you have sex. Right. I see friends with benefits would be more on the side of sex, but it could also potentially bleed into sexual intimacy. I don't really see many people, and I've never had the experience where someone labels it as FWB and actually they want intimacy. It's usually the other way around. They're wanting to move in the opposite direction of intimacy.
• 6:28
  Speaker A: Okay, cool.
• 6:29
  Speaker B: Yeah. So that's just my experience. So I want to hear you from you guys.
• 6:31
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was thinking about this as friends with intimacy. As friends first. And the intimacy is an add on, but they're your friends who you are sometimes intimate with versus, I guess, with the friends with benefits. I guess it's similar, but like a fuck buddy, for example, the emphasis is on the fuck buddy. Like, the fuck is the first word, that's what you're doing. So that's its own thing. We're not talking about that here. The friends with intimacy to me sounds like dating. The only difference I would say with that and dating with me is in dating there is a natural progression for like I want this to turn into a relationship or this is going something. It sounds like it's just dating without. That is kind of what I.
• 7:13
  Speaker B: Without commitment. Yeah. Without having to say you're my person and I want to build this thing with you solely. Right?
• 7:19
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:19
  Speaker B: So it could be for somebody who's monogamous. Yeah, Right. If you're non monogamous or you're polyamorous, this would probably be what you're already engaging in in some way. But for people that are monogamous and they're, they're looking for Mr. Right. Yeah, right. And they want to go down that path with them, but they haven't found Mr. Right yet. So this person might just be limiting themselves from all connection until Mr. Right comes along. But why can't we engage in connection as we go until Mr. Wright does come along? Right. That's kind of how I think.
• 7:45
  Speaker A: Okay, so yeah. Then the example I'm going to use is perfect. It's the gentleman that I was dating in the summer. And I'm going to say dating because that's what I called it. Because when we met, we both knew we didn't want a long term relationship. We did want to hang out, we did want to have fun and we wanted to go on dates and hang out with each other. I did not want it to turn into like whole what are we now? Thing. And I did not want to like incorporate him into my like social circle of my family life. I was like, I want to keep you for me, my own little thing that I have over here separate from everybody else. But I want to hang out with you regularly and I want to have fun with you. Not all the time. That's the thing that the sex was not necessary. Sometimes we did, sometimes we did. It was really just about hanging out together. So that's what I'm saying is dating without the social context, like and then also dating without it turning into something. So in that case, it's a recent experience that was kind of why I got into it and it was really nice. And I would say what came up for me though is eventually things changed for me, like as we spent time together. This was over the course of three, four months as we spent time together, I started to catch feels A bit. And that was really tough to navigate. He did not, not in that way, but I did and I, I knew it was happening when I was happening. I'm like, oh, you know the feeling when like you're falling down and you know you're falling down and you're just like, oh, there's nothing I can do now. I just gotta land. That's how it felt falling for him. Falling for him in more than the way that like we had agreed to. So I guess that's my most recent experience. It's a bit of a sticky subject because it's still kind of happening. I went away to Europe where I am now for two months. So that was a nice clear cut there. But I'm not sure what's going to happen when we get back. So the tale is still happening, my friends. We'll have to let you know how it goes. But I will say this. With friends with benefits and this friends with intimacy, there is a time and place for it in my life and that's usually when I know for sure I don't want a relationship. I don't want a commitment, at least intellectually I don't want one, but then joke's on me. Or if there is someone that I really like but I don't see a long term future with them, but I really enjoy hanging out with them and I don't want that to end just because there's no long term, long term possibility for both of us. But it's very similar to dating, I'm going to say. Like I friend others having a hard time understanding it. Like maybe you can try dating minus the part where you end up having to decide what you are.
• 10:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, like casual dating I think is what. It could even be another term for it. I think buddy and friends with benefits are interchangeable in my opinion. Whereas like casual dating and FWI could be interchangeable in a way.
• 10:19
  Speaker A: I think buddy is the person you call at 2am when you're. When you want to. And a friend with benefits, some that you hang out with or chat with regularly. Like the friend is before the. And it's, it's. I'm not really gonna spend much time with you. I don't really have, want to have much relationship with you. I just want to call you up when I need my, when I need my thing.
• 10:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, so it depends on what you're doing in the time because that could be fwi. The way you're describing FWB could be how I describe fwi. Like what are you doing with this person if you're spending time with them.
• 10:51
  Speaker A: Right, right.
• 10:51
  Speaker B: Because friends of benefits, it's like, what is the benefits? I think that's the whole. That's the whole thing we're unpacking here. What does benefits mean? But I think guys minds. I don't want to speak for people, but from how I perceive it, most people view benefits as sex. So it's like a buddy, right. And you might, whatever, you might hang out with them a little longer and cuddle a little longer than a buddy. But when it starts to bleed into, let's hang out, let's do something, maybe let's grab a dinner together, let's watch a movie and cuddle. Like, that's when I would say it starts bleeding into friends with intimacy.
• 11:20
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So it's good that we're having this conversation so that, you know, the people out there can kind of understand what the different criteria are. Like, what are you doing together? How much time is being spent together? What's the commitment level? Is this going somewhere? What's the, like, main nature and core of the things you're doing? So these are really good conversations.
• 11:38
  Speaker B: I agree. And like, the reason why I brought them in is because of boundaries and communication are so essential. Because you can even see here, like, the way you see it, the way I see it is very different. So you and I got involved in like a friends with benefits situation. You might be viewing it very differently than how I'm viewing it. So, like, communication and boundaries and understanding your needs, moving into a connection like that, where there's like a lot of gray is just so important. Right. So brush up on our communication, I think is the. Is big.
• 12:05
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Speaker A: And with this guy, I can't tell you how many times we had to like, have this conversation. Like, not what are we as in, like, you know, where are we going? It's more. So like when you introduce me to a friend or something, when you talk about me to a friend, would you. What am I your friend? Am I some guy? Some guy you're dating? And I said the word dating and that's. It just like flew out of my mouth. Oh, it's this guy I'm dating. I'm like, oh, okay, Yeah, I guess that works. I guess I'm dating him. But not to the point where we're eventually going to. He's eventually going to be my. My boyfriend.
• 12:31
  Speaker B: One last question. How do you know that? How do you know that? Like that thing where it's like, I don't have that with Him. I want to keep him over there in this zone. As opposed to, like, is there something that he's not exhibiting or that you're not feeling in order to turn it from, say, friends with intimacy into a relationship?
• 12:47
  Speaker A: What a loaded question. I'm still figuring that out. But I will say this. It's because I went in. We both went in saying, this is like, summer of Michael. Single, single Michael. And so I was like, listen, this is single Michael, Summer. I'm not doing that. And he's like, great. Not a problem. So it was like, I decided with my rational mind. But then things changed. For my heart decided to change. But the question was, how do I know? I don't really with him. I think that, like I said, the. The story isn't over. We'll see. We'll see where it goes. I developed, like, more of a crush on him. I shouldn't say crush. Like, I developed feels like, feel. Feels for him. And then we had that conversation. I had to say, like, hey, I've developed feelings for you. It was a very. A vulnerable moment. He handled it very well. He said, I still don't want a relationship. As much as I care about you, I still maintain I do not want a relationship. Not with me, just in general. He doesn't want a relationship. You know, it was the same thing I had said. So it wasn't really about him. It was kind of circumstantial. I guess that answers your question. It wasn't anything about him or me. It was. This is the phase of my life where I don't want a relationship. But, guys, let me tell you, Universe has other plans.
• 13:51
  Speaker B: I know.
• 13:52
  Speaker C: Okay, wait, I have a question. It's kind of related to this, but it's like, I love that this is so conversational today. It's really interesting. So how do you guys navigate. Like, let's say there's a guy. I don't know if this ever happened to you, but let's say there's someone you're into and you're, like, interested in being, I don't know, like, friends with benefits or, like, friends with intimacy with them, but they don't want to be. And how do you navigate that? Like, do you continue. Do you personally continue engaging with them at that point, or do you kind of let it go because they don't want what you want? Like, do you just keep being friends with them? How do you guys personally navigate that?
• 14:33
  Speaker B: I've navigated it twice the last two guys that I've dated. And this is also the Beautiful thing about friends with intimacy is that I have turned relationships, romantic relationships, into friends with intimacy because it hasn't worked out. We've just realized we're not meant for each other, but we have great sex and we spend amazing time together. We have great cuddles, these sorts of things. Right. The question you're talking about is if.
• 14:54
  Speaker C: You'Re like, if you. So you two. Have you, either of you, been in a situation where you want friends with intimacy or friends with benefits with the other person and they don't? And how have you navigated that?
• 15:09
  Speaker B: It's always been the opposite. Where they want, like, more. They want a relationship, and I want to just keep it in the friends with intimacy zone because I don't see them as somebody that I would want to move into a romantic relationship with. But, yeah, so I don't have the experience on the other side.
• 15:24
  Speaker A: I've been on both ends of it. And in that case, we just had to call it, like, you know, both parties have to be consenting and on board with where we're going in my world, like, if not, then. So it was. He wanted a relationship. Is that the scenario? He wanted more?
• 15:39
  Speaker B: And I was in. And you. And you. Do you.
• 15:42
  Speaker C: Yeah. You want friends with benefits or friends with intimacy? And they don't. They just want friendship.
• 15:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's happened.
• 15:50
  Speaker C: Yeah. Right.
• 15:51
  Speaker A: And I think we just have to just deal.
• 15:52
  Speaker C: Friends with them or have you let the friendship go as well?
• 15:55
  Speaker A: Sometimes it has fizzled on my end. I should say. It fizzled. I let it go. Yeah.
• 16:00
  Speaker C: Yeah, right.
• 16:01
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 16:02
  Speaker C: That's what I'm curious about. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's helpful because I've navigated that a couple times, and I think I was judging myself initially for being like, well, I don't actually want to be, like, just friends with you, because it wasn't. It just wasn't fulfilling me, like, just being friends. I was like, you know, this intimacy piece for me, I don't know, there's something about it, the benefits piece for me, but I think, like, just the friends thing. I think there wasn't enough there for me in the friendship to be like, yeah, I want to continue this. I think so. Yeah. I was just curious about other people's takes on this. Yeah. Regarding my experience with FWB or fwi, so the distinctions, for me, I was just leaning into the. The question you were asking about the distinction. And for me, I'm a feeler, Right. I'm very intuitive. So I noticed, like, FWB feels More like. Like, material. Almost like, I don't know, there's a denser, more egoic energy to it. And that word gets a bad rap. And I don't. I don't mean it in the typical way. Like, I don't think FWB is a bad or negative thing or even a lesser thing. It's just. There's something more sort of dense about it. Whereas Friends with Intimacy for me, feels more essential. I think of the word essence, you know, but there's something there. And I. When I think of benefits, benefits for me can include things like dates and material as well, you know, so, like, if someone wants to, like, buy me stuff, right, That's a benefit. If someone wants to, like, take me out on dates or take me to dinner or, you know, do these things that maybe you wouldn't normally do, it's like, okay, those are benefits, right? And then I think sex as well can also be a benefit. But it starts to, like, shift in energy, I think, when it becomes. I don't know if transactional, like, less transactional is the word, but there's something there where it starts to, like, fade, and it becomes a bit, like, lighter and a bit more essential. And I think that's when we start to enter into the intimacy space, I guess, maybe because it's less, like, less transactional, but I don't think it's fair to say it's not at all. Because there is a reciprocity happening, I imagine, right? There is sort of this exchange, but I think it's just a different frequency. That's the word. I think the frequency of the two is different if you really tune into them. I'm also realizing that I, like, so many of my relationships throughout my life have been intimate ones, and especially with the men in my life, which is interesting. But some of the women, too. Like, I remember I had female friends who I would have sleepovers with, right? And I remember at one point, as we started getting a little bit older, their boyfriends would be like, you guys sleep together? And we were just like, yeah, of course we do. Like, why don't we? And I think people were confused sometimes that I was dating my girlfriends, right? They'd be like, oh, are you guys, like, a couple or something or something going on here? It's like, no, we just really love each other and we're super close, you know, and it wasn't weird for us. And then if I go way, way back. I mean, I recorded a podcast episode with my mom, and one of the things she said she identified early on was that when I was young, like, really young, she said, you very early on had this longing and this craving and this affinity for deep and meaningful relationship. She even said, like, to your detriment sometimes. So, you know, I really early on, I think, craved and sought out intimacy, you know, in my relationships. And I can remember being in high school, and I'm not going to name names, but I had a number of male relationships that were quite intimate and a couple of friends with a few friends with benefits as well. You know, there were guys that, like, I would have sleepovers and we would sleep in the same bed. Like, sometimes we'd even light candles. I can remember exchanging massage with one of my friends in high school when we had a sleepover. And we kept this stuff to ourselves for the most part, I think, just because it was like, it was just something we enjoyed, you know? And to my recollection, the friends with intimacy guys, like, they weren't gay, right? We were just very close and very affectionate. The friends of benefits guys, some of them were bisexual, some of them were gay and closeted, and some of them were curious and exploring, right? So. And I want to bring up probably one of my more recent relationships. I've talked about it on the podcast, but I met someone earlier this year, and he moved in to our house, and we, in that process, became really, really close. We would go on dates. Like, people thought we were a couple, you know, they did. They were like, are you guys lovers? Are you a couple? And I'm like, well, we actually are kind of lovers in a sense. You know, we go on dates and we cuddle and we watch movies together, and we exchange massage, and we're very touchy feely. You know, we. I've cried in his arms, he's cried in mine. For all intents and purposes, I mean, minus the sex. Like, yeah, we were friends with intimacy, friends with benefits. Like, there was, you know, this beautiful thing happening there. And I love it because initially I was like, I think I want to have sex with this person. And then I thought I was in love with him. And I feel like I was, in a way. And once I revealed that, so it got, like, really potent. I was kind of struggling internally, like, oh, my gosh, I'm really developing feelings for this guy. And then it was almost like when you release the pressure from a pressure cooker. I just told him. And what was so amazing about that admission was that it liberated me. And it's almost as if it healed, like, all this stuff from My past, all the times where I was deep in my feelings for a boy or a man, right. And couldn't tell them and didn't tell them. And finally I got to say it and I was met with love. Like, he held me, I cried. He was so present, so receptive, so compassionate, so responsive. And I just felt like physiologically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, this healing happened all the way from way back when this hurt started all the way through. It was really fascinating. So I think these relationships can be incredibly healing as well, but they can be difficult, you know? So, yeah, I would say that's the gist of my experience around Friends of Intimacy. And then I guess lastly, like, there were some guys here that I met on the west coast and had a lot of FWB and FWI relationships with them as well. And so it's doable. It gets tricky, but I'm realizing as we're recording this episode, like, I have quite a bit of experience with this, you know?
• 23:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, ditto. I'm starting my. My juices are flowing. I'm like, oh, I've had a lot more experience with this than I realize.
• 23:48
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 23:49
  Speaker B: Thanks for sharing, Reena. Yeah. If we're stretching this definition of intimacy, it can mean so many different things. I have a few female friends that I cuddle with and we're co regulation buddies. So when we're both. When we're experiencing hard times or depression, like, she'll come over and she'll just hold me and it's so beautiful and lovely. That's intimacy with a friend. But usually how I've done it is I've gone backwards. So I've. It's always. I've dated guys and we've tried to make it work. It doesn't work. So we. We just take a step back and we go into friends with Intimacy or friends with Benefits. And so I had a situation where that happened. Dated. It was too intense for both of us. We weren't able to make it happen. He's definitely more avoidant, and that made me more anxious in the relationship. And so we decided to be friends with benefits and. Which I will say friends with benefits, where Friends with Intimacy and friends with benefits is usually really good for people with an avoidant attachment style because it's safer for them. They don't feel like they have to go in and fully commit themselves. It's like I can dance within this container and I can just peace out if I need to. And that's what I was experiencing from this guy. And that became not enough for me. So I decided to just remove myself from the situation because it wasn't, it wasn't nourishing for me. We were putting in different levels of commitment in. And that is the complication that can happen with these types of containers because we can easily kind of hide behind the friends, right? And then forget that there's intimacy or that there's benefits here that need to be also honored. Right? And then the last relationship that I was in, we dated for a while and then decided to transition to friends with intimacy. And it's lovely. So we'll meet up every once in a while. He doesn't live in Calgary, but we'll meet up every once in a while and just share a weekend together. And it's very beautiful. And we cuddle, we hike, we do all the things that we both love to do. And it's like really nice to be able to share in that, like in your shared interests. And the cool thing about that is transitioning a relationship into a friendship post romance is it's a different mirror. And that person now knows you in a more intimate way. They were able to see you when you were seeking or attaching or trying to find love with them, right? So they'll see your fears, they'll see your insecurities. They see the parts of us that come out when we're seeking love. So that's also really beautiful. And then it's nice to be able to talk to them about, oh yeah, like, how do I show up in love, right? Tell me, like, point out some of the things that, right, How I was showing up, some of my codependencies. And we can talk about these things. So it can be really beautiful. It can be a beautiful mirror with less on the line, maybe is a nice way to put it. And then there's also the part of me that I feel like if I'm wanting and the reason why I haven't gone the other way, which is from friendship into intimacy or just wanting to build intimacy with somebody, is because if I'm wanting to build intimacy with you, I see you as somebody that I would want love with. Because I'm not just going to want to build intimacy with anybody. Intimacy is very special, especially when we're moving into sexual intimacy and sex. It's like those two blended together. I wouldn't just offer that to anybody. And if somebody's like, special enough for me to share that part of myself with them, then I would see them as special enough to want to build a, a romantic relationship with them. So yeah, that's a little bit about my journey with that.
• 27:03
  Speaker A: I had a question. When it comes to like, if you're the one who's ending this, like to me, if you're changing the dynamic of the relationship or calling it something different or just ending it completely, that still feels like heartbreak and a breakup. So there's relationship there, right. Even if it's not a committed, monogamous, we're calling it a relationship. There is a relationship there that ends and that, that does deserve its own grief in its own mourning, in its own way.
• 27:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's as valid and it did. So the frequency and intensity and all that had to change. So we, we sat down, we had the conversation that we wanted to just be friends and we gave a three month window and we said, let's just trial friendship in this window. And then we were able to kind of come back into connection once we had space. So I think we didn't talk for like a month and we just took space. Same thing with my partner I was with for two years and we were friends after. We needed like three or four months of not talking to kind of let the, let us settle. Come back into our, the me. Right. And like less focus on the we. And then we were able to navigate that after. But it was, we were both hurting really badly because we, we were starting to build love really at the end of the day. And it felt very special. And, and that's maybe what I'm also learning through this process is it's like love, love can be shared with all in a way. Like, it's not just like, oh, like love this. Like, I truly love him. I can say that I love this human, like, he's amazing. We share a really special time together. He knows me in a very intimate way and I feel safe with him. So there's like, there is love there, but it's just, it's conceptualized different. There's different contexts in which that love operates. And I think. So I had to grieve that the context was changing, I think is what it was.
• 28:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:47
  Speaker B: It's crazy. I'm learning a lot about relationships right now. It's just really, the last few years have been so relationally focused for me and I've been shedding parts of myself that are scared, you know, and all the things my attachment trauma really has been healing. So I think that's kind of what's coming through.
• 29:02
  Speaker C: I think what I'm finding interesting because I feel this, like this learning when it comes to relationships. Is I'm starting to notice for myself that there are two things happening simultaneously. One is that my boundaries, my yeses, my nos, like my clarity, it's like I'm becoming increasingly clear. My boundaries become increasingly defined. And simultaneously, it's kind of this crazy paradox. But it's almost like there's more flow and there's more openness and there's more, like, juiciness relationally because of that, you know, like, it's so interesting. It's like, yeah, boundaries are more clear, and also there's, like, even more openness as a result, which is super cool, I notice. I can relate to people. It's like, you know how we're talking about how, like, the lines get a little blurry, you know, with fwb, fwi, dating, being a couple, et cetera. Like, the. The lines get a little blurry, and I think it's easier to navigate that kind of, like, fun, mysterious, ephemeral gray area, liminal gray area, or colorful area, even when that clarity is there, that clarity of boundaries, that clarity of self, that integrity of self. You know, it's like, okay, now I can kind of explore a bit more and, you know, muck about a little bit more.
• 30:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. I like that. And speaking of juiciness, we're getting the relational juices flowing, hopefully for the audience as well. And I want you just to take a moment. Viewer, listener, if you're watching us on YouTube, let us know what's being stimulated for you right now. Have you engaged in friends with benefits? Does friends with intimacy seem good for you, or does it seem like it would be complicated? Let us know your thoughts. Let's get the conversation happening with. Amongst the community in the. In the comments. And if you're listening on podcast, pause, take a moment, think about that. Like, would friends with intimacy be something good for me? And then if you want to come and have these conversations with us and with other members in the community, you can come join the discussions in our sharing circles and our connection circles, where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences. Our sharing circles are larger gatherings where one person shares at a time while others hold space. And our connection circles are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics on the podcast with other members in our community who are also navigating similar relational terrain as perhaps you are as well. If that sounds like something you'd be interested in, you can go to gaiman'sbrotherhood.com and check out the event section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook. You can go on our email list and we'll email you the zoom link as well. All of that's on our website. All right, question two. How do you maintain boundaries with friends you have benefits or intimacy with? Michael?
• 31:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. And great segue from what Rena was just saying as well. So clearly, right from this conversation already, it's really important to be on the same page about things like definitions so that we're avoiding misunderstandings which are prone to happen clearly when the lines are blurry, when we're talking about kind of vague things, very subjective words. Matt says friends with benefits, I say fuck buddies. We're talking about the same thing, right? So that's the short answer. Let's go a little bit deeper. The first thing is, I think for me, is that self awareness. So going back to my example, I knew at the beginning of the summer, this was the summer of single Michael, he was coming back after like a three, four year hiatus, he's coming back. And so I'm like, do not fall in love. We're not doing that. We're just gonna have a lot of fun and enjoy this moment. So I made that very clear for myself. Now, what actually happened is besides the point right now. So you have to know. You have to know what you want, okay, that self awareness is really important. Know what you want. And the next layer beyond that is why? Why do you want that? So I didn't want to be in a relationship because I had a very good reason, very clear reason why I did not want to be in a relationship. And I liked my reason. I really did. It was a reason that I felt good about, okay? So get clear on your reason why. And then, you know, check in with yourself. Take it from me, just because you make a decision one day doesn't mean that that might change. Things could change. So, you know, check in with yourself. Am I still okay with this? Is this something I still want? Am I still okay with the container we've created here? And don't lie to yourself, right? Because that doesn't serve anybody. I've tried to lie to myself. And I'm like, no, Michael, these are feelings you're developing. Feelings. Don't just lean into it. Just take the fall. So that's skill. One is self awareness. And then on the flip side, when we're talking about boundaries, it's communication, right? Like, we have to communicate these things. So know what they are in your own mind first. Get very clear there. And then once you're Clear in your mind. You then can express those to people. So obviously don't assume, Talk about the things we just described of the respective definitions. Check in with each other. Hey, is this still working for you? Him and I did that, you know, fairly frequently. And remember that it is easy for feelings to change. Right. So one thing I like about checking in with each other is we're not leading anybody on. And it just avoids a lot of unnecessary heartbreak down the road. Heartbreak can happen, but there's unnecessary heartbreak. Right? And that comes from lack of communication or just poor communication. So then have those conversations about what you want, what you don't. Reno gave a good example. Like I imagine going into and saying, okay, here we both don't want a relationship. We're both super attracted to each other. We both have great time with together. We like sex. We also like doing things outside of sex. Like we put all that on the table and we kind of had this. Okay, cool. This is like a really nice thing we got going on here. So have those conversations about what you want included in this container and what you don't want included. So I had said, I don't want you to be part of my social circle. And he's like, great, I don't want to be part of your social circle.
• 34:42
  Speaker B: Perfect.
• 34:43
  Speaker A: Win, win, right? We have a, we have a match there. And then communicating those expectations, things like I just said, you know, social circle, a big one out there, guys. I see a lot of this is a mismatch of how much time you expect to spend together. So that can come up. And that's. That's an interesting one. I would. So for me, a fuck buddy or a friend with benefits is someone. A friend with benefits is someone you see more regularly than a fuck buddy who you would just see in that one off time. But if you are looking for something very casual, like I don't have a lot of time, I just kind of want to call you up when I need a hug, when I need to cuddle, when I need to co regulate or is it someone you want, you know, dming you, how's your day? What's going on? What are you up to, that kind of thing. So time spent together, communication, sex. And if it doesn't include sex, that's fine. But what is included, what is on the table? Cuddling, kissing. Those are important conversations to have. And then yeah, I guess, you know, an important one is what do you each want from this? So if I had to give you as a checklist, it would be are you on the same page about your expectations. Do both people feel good about the level of commitment? And do both partners feel comfortable with what is and isn't happening between them?
• 35:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's it. That was amazing. Like, Mike dropped. Seriously? Yeah, like, that just followed that, that process. Because I was like, that really encompassed everything. Like, I don't really have anything left to say on that question.
• 36:07
  Speaker A: It's very fresh. I learned all this very recently, my friends.
• 36:10
  Speaker B: Yeah. Like, know what you want and need and why. Like, that's a mic drop right there in itself. And then share this authentically and make sure you're honoring self and other. Like, this is what I'm hearing. Like, it's so important. Right.
• 36:21
  Speaker A: And that conversation, when I. When things changed for me, I held onto that for probably a few weeks before I actually said something. And then I did. I told him how I felt and I told him that I had developed stronger feelings for him. He wasn't surprised. So I think he knew, but it didn't really change. And so we just continued, like, we've continued doing our thing. Post that. And I was kind of going through my own little. In my own mind, in my own heart. Like, not mourning, but I just, you know, I put myself out there. I said something very vulnerable. I exposed myself. It didn't work out. And so we still maintained the friends with intimacy, but I had to just like, check myself and like reel it in a bit emotionally. But it was worth it completely.
• 36:59
  Speaker B: Yeah. I'm curious now to see what happens when you go back to Toronto.
• 37:03
  Speaker A: Me too.
• 37:06
  Speaker B: Cool. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, I appreciate it. And Reno, what's being stirred up for you?
• 37:12
  Speaker C: Maintaining boundaries? Well, I think first of all, I wrote down, like, explore, create, clarity. And I think the word that stands out for me is like, discovery. Like, there's something really light and expansive about that word discovery. And so, you know, I think just being in the energy of discovery as you navigate this process, you know, and asking yourself questions like, what are your boundaries? Because sometimes we don't even know. Right. So it's like, what are your boundaries? And recognize that you may not know what some of those boundaries are until they're poke, touched, crossed. Right. And so I think, like, being patient as well is really important. Yeah. What are your boundaries? Questions like, what are we? What are we up to? Where are we? As well. Because this can be a moment to moment process of discovery. So I think there's no shame in checking in and saying, you know, hey, like, where are we right now? You know? Or like, what are we up to right now. What are we right now? I think that that's okay. Just checking in. I'm curious about where we're at. What direction are we heading in? You know, another thing is honesty and transparency, I think so important. As probably mentioned already, honesty and transparency are huge. Honesty with self, honesty with other. Transparency with self and other. I think that, you know, that's really important. And then there's a piece around agreements versus expectations. I think this distinction is so important. You know, I'll give a basic example. In relationship, it's like if I grew up in a house where you come home after work and dinners at 6, and then I get into a relationship and that's not happening in my relationship and I'm mad at my partner for that. And my partner has no clue. That's an expectation. And expectations can often lead to disappointment. So it's like, let's have a conversation, you know, get clear about what it is you want and what you need and then create agreements around it. You know, we agree to this, we agree to that. That can be really, really powerful. Expectations, they get. They get pretty tricky in my experience, you know, because they're not always disclosed. And it's like, I can't read your fucking mind and you can't read mine, you know, we'd like to think we can, but we also get it wrong, right? And then the last thing is just compassion. Compassion for self and for other. Because again, we're navigating really like vulnerable, intimate territory. It can get a little tricky. And so just like, don't be an asshole, you know, to yourself and to each other. It's like just, yeah, be kind, you know, be compassionate.
• 40:00
  Speaker B: I love that. It's like holding. Even if it is a friendship or friends with intimacy, friends with benefits, romantic relationship, doesn't matter. Like, hold the other person's heart with tenderness. Yes. So important, right? Because it's like in these connections, it's easy. If you are in a friends with benefits situation, someone's like having a moment where they're wanting more. More intimacy or they're wanting deeper connection. And then you just them and leave. That person can be left feeling tender. It's like, let's make sure that we're really caring for each other's hearts, not just each other's dicks. And I think it's important, right? And also it's like reading the room. Like, what is this person wanting? And I love what you were saying, Michael, about, like, just be open. Like get this dialogue happening. So then that way you Are. And that's probably. Each little date will say, like, have that conversation. What are you wanting from this date? Right. Because it's not going to be ex. You don't really have cumulation as much as you do in a romantic relationship. As you do. Or in a Friends with intimacy or friends with benefits. As you do in a romantic relationship where it's accumulating on time. Sometimes it might just be I'm relating with other people or whatever, so there's not as much accumulation. And so it's important to, like, have that conversation more frequently, probably even than in a romantic relationship.
• 41:11
  Speaker C: There are these beautiful moments I've discovered, especially recently, where, like, okay, so I'm in a relational dynamic and I've got. Let's say I have a friend and he's really like, to the point. So he wants to get into ideas or he wants to get to the fucking. Right? And I'm like. I'm more feeling. I'm more like, Right. And so we both have what appears to be these conflicting desires. They're not necessarily conflicting, though, because what I've discovered is it's like if he sort of meets me in this, like, connective place initially where it's like, okay, let's create a little bit of space for some connection so we can kind of meet that need for you. Then I can sort of meet him in the place where it's like, okay, now you can pardon my candor, but, like, dink me down or whatever it is that you want to do. You know, it's like, okay, cool, right? So it's. Sometimes I think it can seem like, oh, we want different things and they're going to clash and we're not. And it's like, well, with a little bit of conversation, a little bit of exploration, you might actually both leave satisfied. It's possible, you know, that both your needs can be met.
• 42:18
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think people avoid the conversation altogether and then they just walk away as my life. Exactly.
• 42:24
  Speaker B: Which is just a sign of a lack of communication. Maturity. Takes a lot of maturity to have these conversations, I think. So hopefully us having them and, you know, bringing up this stuff can, like, just be modeling for people. If you're listening to this or watching us, like, it's like learning to how to have these conversations. And I know it's like, it's easy to talk about it here, but it's when the stakes are higher, Right. It's more vulnerable when you're doing it with somebody that's more intimate.
• 42:47
  Speaker A: Totally.
• 42:49
  Speaker B: Okay. How do I maintain boundaries with friends I have intimacy with or benefits. It's interesting because the word boundaries for me always gives me this, like, feeling of like, it's like a wall, like, keep out. But it's like boundaries are also to teach people how to get close to us as well. And I've noticed that usually in my connections, I tend to want more closeness. And I find that in order to maintain boundaries, I find, like, it's. I have to like, communicate the frequency of how much connection I'm wanting because that's a big piece for me. And when I start to, like, communicate that, like, for example, there was a guy that I was connecting with, and he's the one that we were dating, and then we transitioned back into friends with benefits, and it was almost like there wasn't like, the benefits in some cases. For me. It's like the person thinks that they don't have to communicate as much. It's like we're just friends with benefits. Like, why do you want this from me? Right? And again, like I said, avoidant people can easily hide behind friends with benefits because it's like, like it's not as intimate. You don't have to put yourself out there as much. And then I see, as the friends of intimacy, it's almost like it's. It's inferring that there's more communication. You need to level up and communicate more in that kind of container. So for me, my boundaries are we need to communicate. It's just everything. It's. It allows me to. To connect and then my needs can be met. Like, that's why I want friends with intimacy over friends with benefits is because I want those deeper, more intimate moments. Even if it is just someone I'm having sex with as like a friend, I want it to have that element of sexual intimacy as well. So I'm not going to go into too much detail because you guys have already really, like, killed it on this. And I just. I second everything you guys had shared. So those are my quick thoughts. Again, take a pause. Reflect on the question for yourself. How do you maintain boundaries with friends you have benefits or intimacy with? Are you the person that just ghosts or stops communicating, or are you the person that goes in and has those difficult conversations? It's important if you're looking to learn more about boundaries. Actually, we have a whole bunch of videos in our coaching collection on boundaries. Then we have a course in the coaching collection called Building Better Relationships. And we have a whole thing on boundaries and how to navigate difficult conversations and stuff like that. So if you're wanting to learn more and accelerate your personal development journey, come join our coaching collection. You're going to access to 45 premium personal development coaching videos and then as well as our two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. You can head over to gayman goingdeeper.com to learn more about those offerings. All right, last question. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having intimacy with friends? Michael?
• 45:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think we covered quite a few of the advantages already. I'll say this, it might be good for, I like to think of as like who would this benefit? Like who would be a good fit for this kind of relationship? And so you know, someone who wants that consistent partnership companionship without the commitment of a romantic relationship. So someone who like in my case, someone who's not looking in that moment for a long term relationship for whatever reason that is. Just make sure you know your reason and you like it. Maybe you might find dating too time consuming and it's a lot of pressure on you to find the one. And so the friends with intimacy takes a lot away and you can just enjoy bonding and relating with another human and maybe some cuddling and maybe some sex if that's included too. It's also great for people who are not into one time hookups. All semisexuals out there. Yeah, exactly. So if that's not your jam, if that leaves you feeling icky, sticky, it's just not your thing, you don't like it for whatever reason, then yes, this, this would be a great opportunity to try relating in another way. I would say as well. Even just listening to us right here. I think this would work really well for people who like to play in the, in that gray zone and like to make up their own rules and aren't afraid to have these kinds of conversations. I think it could be really fun to create those whatever relationship container it is that you want with somebody that that in of itself is intimacy. Guys having that conversation about what do we want this to be, how do we want this to look, is intimacy on its own. And so yeah, those are I think some of the people who I think would really benefit from having a friends with intimacy. And then the opposite for maybe some of the drawbacks for people who. It would not be good for people who for sure want to find that person. People who like really the labels and the lines, they have a hard time with blurry lines, don't like having those conversations, don't know how to have those conversations, don't feel comfortable with that. Then maybe this would not be such a good thing because that might. You might end up in heartbreak or disappointment. I'll leave it there.
• 47:27
  Speaker B: Love that.
• 47:29
  Speaker C: New territory. I wrote this down. New territory equals new discovery, new joys and new challenges. So it gets interesting when you introduce new layers and levels of experience to your relationships, Right. There's more depth now, and it can feel like there's more at stake because more has been revealed and shared and brought into the space. And also sex and physicality have a way of creating, you know, new layers of experience and thus new potential for joys and challenges. So I would say just be really mindful of that. You know, that as you invite stuff in and dive more deep, you're. It's like, you know, you walk into a new room, there's new stuff. And I think going back to what's been said, you know, in different ways multiple times, just like, be present throughout that process and communicative, you know, like, make it known, reveal it, bring it forth, notice it, point it out, call it out, speak to it. It can be really vulnerable as well. So that's something to be mindful of. And then this last thing I would say is like blending social circles or fucking within friend groups. I'm going to recommend that you be really mindful of that because I have shit where I eat before and it can be really difficult. You know, you start like, hooking up with someone you live with and then like, they don't want to hook up anymore. You don't. It's like, oh, someone you work with. Oh, you know, someone in your, like, friend circle that you're constantly seeing all the time. Oh. So just like, really take that into consideration as you're navigating all of this, you know, because sometimes things can transition impeccably and a lot of times they don't, you know, and it's like, oh, heartbreak. Okay, now I've got to see this every day, right? Like, ouch. So just be careful.
• 49:32
  Speaker B: Good point. I co founded Calgary's first gay hockey team and that happened. It's like everybody behind the scenes is sleeping with this person, that person's boyfriend, blah, blah, blah. This is just inevitable. Whether you're doing friends with intimacy or benefits or not. It's your. You know, there's an element of incestuousness in our community. It's like everybody's sleeping with everybody or their boyfriends or whatever. It's just. It become complicated. So, yes, for sure, that would be one of my disadvantages. Again, it's for people who have A fear of intimacy or are avoidant or emotionally unavailable, these things, it's an easy way for them to hide behind the label of friends and not go into deeper intimacy. But in that same breath I could also say it's an advantage to somebody like that because if they don't want to, or they're navigating a fear of intimacy, or they have some sort of developmental or relational trauma that they're navigating and they're not ready or prepared to get into a romantic relationship, maybe this is a nice bridge or a stepping stone for them to start to navigate intimacy in a way that there's not a lot on the line or not as much on the line, we'll say. However, that can become really complicated. Right. Because it's like, oh, shit. Well, right. So there's. You're still going to have to be a strong communicator to navigate this terrain. And truly dating relationships, anything in general, you need to have the skills to be able to navigate this stuff. Right. So hence our building better relationships course. These sorts of things. Like, that's why we're creating this content for people to be able to dive in and start to get these skills and learn them so that it makes your relational experiences much more enjoyable, in my opinion. But other advantages, like, there's tons of advantages, really. It's great for getting your needs met. Your pool gets bigger when you have more potential mates to mate with. Right. And to have intimacy with. And it alleviates the loneliness that a lot of us are dealing with. Because for a long time I was very picky and I was like, I'm not going on. No, no, no, no. Like one in a thousand guys on Tinder I would find like, like interesting. So then I'm like, I'm starving, I'm super hungry and there's nothing for me. So I'm like, okay, well, maybe I have to lower this down to like, can I relate with somebody where I have 75% compatibility? Yes, I can. They're probably not going to be my person because I would want higher compatibility in order to maintain, you know, a long term relationship with that person. But doesn't mean I still can't relate with them. Right.
• 51:49
  Speaker A: I have a question, if I may.
• 51:50
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 51:51
  Speaker A: If you guys are in a friends with intimacy, are you assuming. I don't think this can happen at all, but are you assuming that they're still dating seeing other people?
• 52:02
  Speaker B: That's where it gets tricky. Yeah.
• 52:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's something that want to talk about.
• 52:06
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well. And that's probably the answer for me would be yes, because that's the whole point. Right. The commitment would be that we're choosing to be devoted to one another. But again, that's a gray line because people that are non monogamous or polyamorous. What, what's that line for them? It's gonna be different than somebody who's monogamous. So. But I also feel like I tend to carry a belief into the those connections. It's like, well, I feel like I would be enough. Right. And then that's like. But if I do find out they're out with other people, then that can bring up stuff for me. I'm not enough. They need to go out. Right. Because usually if I have a guy that I'm having great sex with, we have great intimacy. I'm like, I don't need another guy. Like I've. I'm. I'm kind of a one guy guy. Like I don't often have multiple guys going at the same time.
• 52:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 52:51
  Speaker B: And so yeah, it would become a problem, I think. And for some people that's kind of.
• 52:55
  Speaker A: What happened with me. And I ended up putting all my eggs in his basket because I was having, just as you said, such a great time. I didn't even want to. But as I go back, I'm in a phase now where I am more ready for a relationship. And if he's not, there's a mismatch there. I want to start actually dating. Like for real.
• 53:12
  Speaker B: For real.
• 53:12
  Speaker A: Like dating with the intention of having a long term relationship. And so where does that land with us? Right. So it's all very interesting. Yeah.
• 53:19
  Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm curious though in your case, like if you're. Because I'm assuming you'd get into another non monogamous relationship.
• 53:26
  Speaker A: I'm open to monogamy and I'm open to open.
• 53:29
  Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So in the instance that you were going to get into a non monogamous with him, would that not allow him to still have the freedom to go off and not be having to fully. There's the commitment that he would have to say, I'm in a relationship with this person. That's something that would feel like too much for him. Or.
• 53:46
  Speaker A: Well, he just doesn't want a relationship now for his own reasons.
• 53:49
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 53:50
  Speaker A: It's not really anything to do with. Just as I didn't want. It had nothing to do with him. Like he wasn't the thing and I would. It wasn't about us. We had our own reasons for not wanting to be In a relationship.
• 53:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah. So it is not a relationship at all in general.
• 54:02
  Speaker A: Yeah. But now I am open to that. And he's still not.
• 54:05
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 54:06
  Speaker A: I'm still not. And that's not something I want right now. But I'm like, I'm warming up to the idea.
• 54:10
  Speaker B: Yeah. Cool. You're getting warmer.
• 54:13
  Speaker A: Yes. As I said, we'll see. I feel like this is like in the middle of our story. Follow along, guys. Stay tuned for the next episode.
• 54:20
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you as always, for, for your mic drops, Michael, and for Reno, for your. Your felt sense and your intuitiveness and just bringing the flavors of energy into our show. The air and the water showed up today.
• 54:38
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 54:39
  Speaker B: And thank you to the listener, viewer for tuning into yet another episode. We're hit almost 200 and something. We're accumulating a lot of great episodes. So thank you for chiming in. And always just remember too, that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. And if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes or you can tap the thanks button on YouTube and make a donation that way. And if you want to support us, you can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Podcasts where you can listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. And all your support does help us continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you in advance for that. And hopefully we'll see you at one of our connection or sharing circles that are going to be coming up later this month. And you can check out everything related to the gay men's brotherhood by going to gaiman'sbrotherhood.com Much love, everybody.