Latest / The Third Thing / S2E17: What to Do When You Don't Like Your Friend's Partner

Transcript

S2E17: What to Do When You Don't Like Your Friend's Partner · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:05
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and voodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships with outer roadmap, so we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, ID.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Love our little matching outfits.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it wasn't on purpose, but it's so cute.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's adorable.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're adorable.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're the most adorable.
• 1:05
  Michelle: However, heading into another heavy topic today.
• 1:10
  Michelle: We're really diving in.
• 1:12
  Michelle: We're we're not uh mincing words here with the topics.
• 1:17
  Michelle: And today we're talking about why you can't save your friend from a bad relationship.
• 1:24
  Michelle: And what to do instead.
• 1:38
  Michelle: Someone that you don't like, maybe toxic, borderline abusive, or even physically abusive.
• 1:47
  Michelle: And as a friend, what is your role?
• 1:52
  Michelle: I think that we have been really influenced by cinema when it comes to this sort of dramatized experience.
• 2:03
  Michelle: And I do think many of us fall into this place of wanting to feel like the savior, that it was either your words that helped make an impact or saved somebody from this quote unquote bad relationship, or even insofar as you show up and save the day and rescue that person.
• 2:22
  Michelle: And even if it isn't that dramatized and you just don't like your friend's partner, if you're not saving them, like what is your role?
• 2:33
  Michelle: What do you say?
• 2:34
  Michelle: What do you not say?
• 2:35
  Michelle: What action do you take?
• 2:36
  Michelle: Where's the line?
• 2:38
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 2:39
  Danyelle: It's so tricky because there's a world in which you hold that and you show up and you keep that to yourself.
• 2:50
  Danyelle: There's a world in which you're vocal about it, you name it, you say it.
• 2:55
  Danyelle: There's a world in which you avoid, you just don't come around.
• 3:00
  Danyelle: Regardless of what action you take, it's going to have deep impact on the relationship that you have with your friend.
• 3:08
  Danyelle: And this is a conversation that I think we may have in a friendship, but a lot of conversation is in isolation.
• 3:18
  Danyelle: We're having this conversation with ourselves.
• 3:21
  Danyelle: What do I do?
• 3:22
  Danyelle: What do I say?
• 3:23
  Danyelle: Because you might be nervous, scared, hesitant to bring it up to another friend or directly to that friend because of what might happen.
• 3:34
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 3:34
  Michelle: I'm gonna jump right in with my story because I think that it's if not universal, there will be parts that resonate with folks.
• 3:45
  Michelle: I had a friend who was engaged to be married, and I was really worried about them.
• 3:53
  Michelle: I saw some behaviors in their partner that felt like they could be abusive, lightly physical, but definitely emotional andor controlling, what I perceived as being controlling.
• 4:05
  Michelle: Having said that, my friend was really happy.
• 4:08
  Michelle: And I went to therapy because I had just started, and I was like, why is anyone not telling them that this person is not good for them?
• 4:17
  Michelle: And I need to step up and say my part.
• 4:29
  Michelle: Definitely say the thing.
• 4:31
  Michelle: Yeah, someone definitely needs to get through to her.
• 4:34
  Michelle: But when I went to my therapist, he was like, No, babe, not your job.
• 4:40
  Michelle: Cute, but no.
• 4:42
  Michelle: And I was like, What are you talking about?
• 4:44
  Michelle: Like, kind of what was unsaid is like someone needs to save her.
• 4:48
  Michelle: Clearly, she doesn't know what's happening.
• 4:51
  Michelle: And he was like, They're the unit now.
• 4:54
  Michelle: It's their relationship, their partnership.
• 4:57
  Michelle: And it's very unlikely that what you have to say will make a difference, other than to alienate you from her life.
• 5:06
  Michelle: And then you run the risk of if and when she does need you, she's not gonna come to you because she doesn't trust that you are a safe space.
• 5:16
  Michelle: And then who does she have?
• 5:18
  Michelle: And that was such a reframe, such a shift in my need to sort of like control and protect like these were like pieces of my identity.
• 5:34
  Michelle: And also when I look back on it now, it's sort of like, who am I?
• 5:39
  Michelle: Of course, when it comes to the the physical, there is sometimes a stepping in that can or should happen, and we can talk about that in a bit.
• 5:48
  Michelle: But as far as just not clicking with somebody's partner or being worried or the emotional stuff, like, is it my job as a friend to say, what are you doing with your life?
• 6:00
  Michelle: And to step in and like break up a marriage, potentially, or try to.
• 6:06
  Michelle: And that ultimately I'm so glad that I didn't step in in that way because it was really important to me to be a part of her life.
• 6:16
  Michelle: And yeah, I really just didn't want to threaten that or lose that.
• 6:21
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 6:22
  Danyelle: The story that I have is I didn't have a therapist to tell me not to do it.
• 6:28
  Danyelle: Oh, and not only did I do it, but I like rallied.
• 6:34
  Danyelle: Oh, yes.
• 6:36
  Danyelle: I really I started like a campaign, if you will, of we have to break them up.
• 6:44
  Danyelle: This is not the thing.
• 6:46
  Danyelle: And I just remember absolutely feeling like obviously this friend doesn't get it.
• 6:54
  Danyelle: They don't see it, they don't understand.
• 6:57
  Danyelle: We love them so much.
• 6:59
  Danyelle: And like, if we can just show them, look at all these people who think this relationship is bad for you, then they will, you know, do the necessary thing and leave, leave their partner.
• 7:13
  Danyelle: And I remember feeling so um empowered, empowered.
• 7:19
  Danyelle: So exactly what you're saying, though, like savior, you know, yeah, I'm gonna be the person who is going to show up and you know I'm gonna fix it.
• 7:30
  Danyelle: I'm gonna, I'm gonna really show them.
• 7:32
  Danyelle: Um, I did not, yeah, I did not fix it.
• 7:35
  Danyelle: I did not show them and it really ruptured the friendship, yeah.
• 7:40
  Danyelle: And I think, you know, I will say ruptured to the point of it really ruptured the friendship, and parts of that friendship were it couldn't be repaired.
• 7:58
  Danyelle: Yeah, it was done, right?
• 8:00
  Danyelle: What was done was done, and you know, because I rallied everybody, they all knew who was, you know, kind of the center.
• 8:10
  Danyelle: Exactly, yeah.
• 8:12
  Danyelle: And so you can't come back from that.
• 8:15
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Danyelle: And what I realized now is I don't have the connection with this friend anymore.
• 8:24
  Danyelle: And I can't be there for them, not just around their relationship, but around a lot of things.
• 8:30
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 8:31
  Danyelle: And so, you know, I wish I had brought this to therapy.
• 8:36
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 8:37
  Danyelle: Um, but I think it's important to share these two stories because, as you said, a lot of us have been there.
• 8:45
  Danyelle: A lot of us have been in the position of seeing something that might look bad, wrong, different, and really want to, you know, be the good friend.
• 8:58
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 8:59
  Danyelle: And like I said, jump in and solve fix.
• 9:02
  Michelle: One thing that I think is important to name is I would love it if the end of that story was like, and then she felt totally comfortable coming to me down the line.
• 9:11
  Michelle: And I do think even though I didn't say the thing or jump in and I didn't go in with that kind of intensity, I think my feelings about their partner were known, you know, because it's the energy that you give off and um the way that you participate, the way that you feel about each other or act around each other when you don't really click.
• 9:34
  Michelle: And so the rupture kind of it's not so much that there was one rupture as it was we're maybe not as close as I would wish that we were, but that's important to name that we talk about energy a lot, and you can't necessarily force, and we're not suggesting that you should liking someone or or feeling like you want to be close to them.
• 9:58
  Michelle: So I'm glad that we didn't have that big rupture, but I think it was still felt.
• 10:03
  Danyelle: Yeah, the thing that is coming up for me as you're talking is we had two different stories, two different approaches, and still kind of similar outcomes.
• 10:14
  Danyelle: Yeah, right?
• 10:15
  Danyelle: Distance, not as close, that person not feeling comfortable coming to us.
• 10:22
  Danyelle: And you didn't explicitly say anything.
• 10:24
  Danyelle: I explicitly said something, and I think that is so important around naming the NRG and the way we show up and the way we say things.
• 10:33
  Danyelle: You often say, like, what is happening there for you after someone leaves the room?
• 10:38
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 10:39
  Danyelle: Whether it's I'm really like into that person or I'm like excited to meet a person or I don't like the person.
• 10:44
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 10:45
  Danyelle: Very obvious.
• 10:46
  Danyelle: Palpable.
• 10:48
  Danyelle: And so I think for me, I probably, if I hadn't said anything, if I hadn't, you know, tried to rally the truth, um, it would still have ended the same.
• 10:58
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 10:58
  Michelle: And I have the subtlety of a hammer.
• 11:01
  Michelle: Like when uh you, you know, the other day we were around a person that I was like, ooh, yeah, I know the situation, I'm not into it.
• 11:07
  Michelle: I just walked away.
• 11:08
  Michelle: You were like, oh, where you're like, mm-hmm, goodbye.
• 11:11
  Michelle: Goodbye now.
• 11:12
  Michelle: Literally walked away.
• 11:13
  Michelle: I did.
• 11:14
  Michelle: So yeah, so and even though I didn't say the thing I'm sure it was known.
• 11:19
  Michelle: Um but all that being said, again, it's interesting to let's look at the the quote unquote bad relationship itself.
• 11:29
  Michelle: If a relationship was all bad, most people wouldn't enter it or stay in it.
• 11:35
  Michelle: The staying in it is a bit more nuanced because maybe you have kids or you're sharing a life together and there are other reasons that you stay in.
• 11:43
  Michelle: But even just the entering in, it's like it could be love bombing.
• 11:47
  Michelle: It could be that cocktail of oxytocin and serotonin and the the falling in love of it all, the sexual attraction.
• 11:55
  Michelle: Um, my old roommate used to say that couples solve their problems in the bedroom, which can be so hard for friends because you're talking all the shit and things that are not going well, and then you go into the bedroom and have sex, and then you're like, oh, things feel really good now.
• 12:10
  Michelle: Meanwhile, as a friend, you're like, wait, I thought we didn't like this person.
• 12:13
  Michelle: What just happened?
• 12:15
  Michelle: Um But beyond that, beyond the the cocktail of love that gets you into the relationship, many of us are looking to heal some wound or to complete a circle or a cycle.
• 12:30
  Michelle: I have some abandonment trauma in my upbringing.
• 12:35
  Michelle: Maybe I date someone that reminds me of a person and I'm looking to change the outcome when in fact I end up just repeating the cycle.
• 12:45
  Michelle: That's something, it's not a trope.
• 12:47
  Michelle: That's that's sort of proven that we that we see we're repeating these.
• 12:50
  Michelle: And so you can kind of have compassion for the people that we end up integrating with because the energy feels very familiar.
• 12:59
  Michelle: And so you think, oh my God, you grew up with this toxicity.
• 13:02
  Michelle: Why would you be seeking that out in a romantic partner?
• 13:05
  Michelle: But it's like, oh, but I'm looking to change the story, and yet I found myself back in it, and or I'm so used to chaos and discomfort that I'll sign up for more because that actually feels like home.
• 13:16
  Michelle: That, yep.
• 13:18
  Danyelle: And I I really feel like we do that across all relationships where we're drawn to people who are familiar and safety, even if one from the outside may say that is unsafe, is still coded in our body as safety or familiar.
• 13:38
  Danyelle: And so, yeah, I know the person that I date from my family.
• 13:43
  Michelle: Um and it's she doesn't literally mean she's dating someone from her family.
• 13:50
  Michelle: Just let's all use our brains, you know what she's saying.
• 13:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:53
  Danyelle: Um and it's interesting because the things I that make me frustrated about a partner are the very things that I seek out in a partner because I because it kept me safe as a child.
• 14:08
  Danyelle: Right.
• 14:09
  Danyelle: And I think it is one of those those things.
• 14:13
  Danyelle: It's it's not a trope.
• 14:14
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 14:15
  Danyelle: I recommend all do it.
• 14:17
  Danyelle: Um find the person who mirrors somebody in your family, and you are you're you're trying to figure out why didn't I get through this or why didn't I fix this, solve this?
• 14:30
  Danyelle: Because it's not something to solve.
• 14:32
  Danyelle: And then we end up in partnerships where we're trying to do that.
• 14:36
  Michelle: And we often do just repeat the cycles.
• 14:41
  Michelle: I think part of the reason we're naming this is like when you are making a commentary on a friend's partner, it's a referendum on their mental health sometimes and or inability to escape that cycle.
• 14:55
  Michelle: And so they may even know or see the problems and either feel unsafe in leaving or like they're not ready because they haven't tried to close that loop yet.
• 15:07
  Michelle: And there can be a real piece around self-esteem that who else will love me if I'm not with this person, or they actually fill XYZ needs.
• 15:17
  Michelle: And so even though I'm not getting this met, it's worth it to me.
• 15:22
  Michelle: Or they have loved Bon You, or you've seen so much good in them that for however long it's outweighing the bad.
• 15:31
  Danyelle: And there's also the hope.
• 15:33
  Danyelle: Maybe it's just this moment in time.
• 15:36
  Danyelle: Maybe they were feeling very under-resourced.
• 15:38
  Danyelle: It was a hard day.
• 15:40
  Danyelle: And some of the behavior or some of the actions that you're noticing in your friend's partner could be coming from some external factor.
• 15:51
  Danyelle: And there may be some hope that, yeah, this is this is temporary.
• 15:56
  Danyelle: This is just a moment in time.
• 15:58
  Michelle: So, what do you think our job is as a friend?
• 16:01
  Michelle: When do we say something?
• 16:03
  Michelle: When do we not?
• 16:04
  Michelle: Where is the line?
• 16:05
  Michelle: Is it a hard line?
• 16:06
  Michelle: What do we do here?
• 16:08
  Michelle: Because especially if it's someone you're very close to, you're gonna be around that person a lot.
• 16:13
  Michelle: What does it look like to say something or like 100% keep your mouth shut?
• 16:19
  Danyelle: I think first and foremost, it's so important to take care of yourself.
• 16:23
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 16:24
  Danyelle: You have to be able to know what your limits are, where your lines are, referring back to our boundaries episode and thinking about how do you take care of yourself in situations where maybe you don't love the people you're around, or maybe there is going to be some energy that might get picked up.
• 16:46
  Danyelle: And so, what are the ways that you support yourself first?
• 16:50
  Danyelle: If you are going to, if you're in a position to say, maybe I'm not gonna explicitly say something, and your friend is in this relationship, caring for yourself is gonna be the way that you care for your friend.
• 17:05
  Danyelle: So I want to start there.
• 17:07
  Danyelle: I think then you have to really dissect the situation, right?
• 17:11
  Danyelle: If we think about this in kind of like a spectrum or or a ranking, you mentioned it.
• 17:19
  Danyelle: If it's just, you know, I don't click with this person, we have different values, we see the world differently, we navigate the world differently.
• 17:26
  Danyelle: Maybe that isn't something you say, because that is a part of what you're carrying.
• 17:32
  Danyelle: Does your friend need to be dating somebody who has the exact same or very similar values to you?
• 17:39
  Danyelle: Right.
• 17:39
  Danyelle: Probably not.
• 17:41
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 17:41
  Danyelle: And so again, what is the reflection that you're doing that, yeah, I would prefer my friends' partners to maybe not have such extreme different values?
• 17:52
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 17:53
  Danyelle: But that's not for me to decide.
• 17:55
  Danyelle: I think then kind of moving down a list of if there are signs of, you know, verbal abuse or emotional abuse control, what does that look like in practice?
• 18:10
  Danyelle: And what is your role in terms of what happens if you say something?
• 18:15
  Danyelle: Is there a fear that your friend is going to go back and tell this person your friend is gonna shut down and stop talking to you?
• 18:23
  Danyelle: I think you have to really understand what the potential outcomes could be before you take it upon yourself to potentially say something.
• 18:32
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Michelle: And I think honing in on your come from, like, is this because I'm uncomfortable or do I want to offer comfort to you?
• 18:41
  Michelle: I find that the best way to weigh in.
• 18:44
  Michelle: And when I think about my values as a friend, is like, I want you to feel safe with me.
• 18:49
  Michelle: I want to be a resource if you need me.
• 18:52
  Michelle: I want to be able to call you if I'm having a hard time.
• 18:55
  Michelle: I would like to incorporate you in my life.
• 18:57
  Michelle: Like these are the values that I hold.
• 18:59
  Michelle: And so using those as my pillars, then it's, hey, I noticed you said XYZ about your partner.
• 19:06
  Michelle: I noticed they said this to you.
• 19:08
  Michelle: How did that land?
• 19:09
  Michelle: Like, are you okay or what's going on?
• 19:11
  Michelle: Do you want to talk?
• 19:12
  Michelle: And so I'm meeting the situation with curiosity, and I continue to provide that container and reminder that they can tell me things.
• 19:20
  Michelle: I also think that there's this importance of like many things can be true.
• 19:25
  Michelle: And rarely is a person a true villain.
• 19:28
  Michelle: Like Disney has provided us with like the binary, right?
• 19:32
  Michelle: Like all good, all bad.
• 19:34
  Michelle: And then we've some sort of debunked like, was it cool for Snow White to come and invade the dwarves home?
• 19:39
  Michelle: I digress.
• 19:41
  Michelle: Um it is more of a spectrum.
• 19:44
  Michelle: And so while you can listen to a story about someone's partner and be like, yeah, that was fucked up, I can also hold the truth that they may also be a really good parent and they may be great in bed, and that there are many truths that I let my friends know that I can hold with and for them.
• 20:00
  Michelle: And I do think that's a gift because then you're creating the safety for I can talk shit, I can be having a hard day, we can have gotten in a fight, but it doesn't mean that you're gonna be awkward as shit around them next time we all hang out and tell them, like, well, I heard.
• 20:16
  Michelle: I feel like that's such an old school, almost like high school way of being of like, um, you know, you you talk shit about your partner, and then the next day your friend is ignoring them.
• 20:26
  Michelle: And it's like, it's just not what we do anymore.
• 20:29
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Michelle: Not not in hopefully grown folk business.
• 20:33
  Michelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:34
  Danyelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:34
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 20:35
  Danyelle: No, I um I really love I really love what you just said and what it's bringing up for me is sometimes it's okay to say the thing, knowing that there will be impact, but that it's important just to name.
• 20:52
  Danyelle: And to your point, it's how you are delivering that.
• 20:56
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 20:57
  Danyelle: You know, I think as a therapist, there's a line that you walk in terms of explicitly saying something is X or with such definitive edge.
• 21:11
  Danyelle: And there are absolutely moments when I'm like, no, that's abuse, or no, that's toxic, or no, that's harming you.
• 21:20
  Danyelle: And so I think what you're speaking to is uh being able to like come from this really expansive and almost like spacious place where your friend is also meeting you there.
• 21:33
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 21:34
  Danyelle: I'm thinking about the moments where maybe your friend is not seeing it or too afraid to name it out loud.
• 21:43
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 21:43
  Danyelle: And sometimes saying, I'm I'm saying this because I think it's important to like anchor us to where I see things, what I'm noticing, what I might see as, and allow.
• 22:00
  Danyelle: That there allow that space.
• 22:02
  Danyelle: You can preface it with yeah, this this might not land.
• 22:07
  Danyelle: This might be ready to hear when your partner said this, that felt harmful, yeah, felt borderline abusive.
• 22:18
  Danyelle: And then coming in with how did it land for you?
• 22:22
  Danyelle: Is that how you're experiencing it?
• 22:24
  Danyelle: So sometimes I think it is important to be able to say it with being able to do it with care and love, and not this kind of high school, um, or not even high school, but like emotionally unintelligent, like leaning into EQ, leaning into how would it feel if someone said this to me?
• 22:50
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 22:52
  Michelle: My brain is twinning because this is such a rich topic.
• 22:55
  Michelle: There's so many like threads to lean into.
• 22:57
  Michelle: Um I'm not sure if this is exactly what you were saying, but what came up as you were talking is I do think that a way into the conversation is leading with how it's impacting me as a friend, as opposed to I'm making a judgment about you and your relationship and what you should do.
• 23:15
  Michelle: It's like I noticed that when we hang out, your partner likes to talk about politics a lot.
• 23:20
  Michelle: And I feel really sensitive, or it's clear we don't see eye to eye and it's leading to this discomfort.
• 23:26
  Michelle: And so, like, it's not so much that you're bringing it up to them and asking them to solve it for you, but more so saying, like, do you feel comfortable if I like ask them to not?
• 23:36
  Michelle: And or I might not be in one on wanna be in one-on-one situations with them anymore.
• 23:40
  Michelle: It doesn't mean I don't want to hang out with you, but like let me know when it's just me at dinner and I might not attend, and not because you're done anything wrong, but because I'm protecting my my mental health or whatever it is.
• 23:53
  Michelle: Like that's a totally random example.
• 23:55
  Michelle: But when you lead with that, it's like this idea of Romeo and Juliet, everyone didn't want them together and it brought them closer.
• 24:03
  Michelle: That's actually not what's proven to be true.
• 24:06
  Michelle: It's like we do care what our friends and family think.
• 24:09
  Michelle: And typically we do want to be surrounded by love.
• 24:12
  Michelle: It feels so good when your relationship is upheld and supported.
• 24:17
  Michelle: And so offering those moments, if this isn't working for me and it makes me not want to spend time with you guys, is not controlling, I'm not controlling your decisions.
• 24:27
  Michelle: I'm saying what I will or won't do.
• 24:30
  Danyelle: And that's why I started with how do you take care of yourself?
• 24:32
  Danyelle: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:33
  Danyelle: And this is why to me the thread is of taking care of yourself first.
• 24:38
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 24:38
  Danyelle: What are your boundaries?
• 24:40
  Danyelle: What makes sense for you?
• 24:43
  Danyelle: And I will say, you know, sometimes I am unhinged, but I will say you get to come from your experience.
• 24:52
  Danyelle: Correct.
• 24:53
  Danyelle: If that makes the other person uncomfortable, we can hold space for that.
• 24:57
  Danyelle: But your experience and your feelings around the experience is valid every time.
• 25:03
  Danyelle: It's valid 100% of the time.
• 25:06
  Danyelle: The way you act, the way you show up, the way you may act out, not.
• 25:12
  Danyelle: But being able to name this doesn't work for me is is a part of that.
• 25:17
  Michelle: Oh, and you were like having to contend with the people pleasing of it all, of like, oh, they invited me to dinner, but I don't really want to go.
• 25:25
  Michelle: You get to not go.
• 25:26
  Michelle: If you know, if it's truly impacting you in that way, you get to not go.
• 25:30
  Michelle: You don't get to break them up, but you get to not go.
• 25:33
  Michelle: And then your friend can deal with what that means for them.
• 25:38
  Michelle: And so, to both of our points, when we brought up our examples, unfortunately, it can lead to rupture unless you're fully willing to give up your own comfort.
• 25:48
  Michelle: And that's a decision that you can make.
• 25:50
  Michelle: We're not here to tell anyone what to do, but obviously we are here to encourage you to check in with your body and to be in places where you feel safe and like there's love.
• 26:01
  Michelle: And hopefully you have friendships where you are allowed to speak your mind and offer what you're noticing and tell someone that you love that you're concerned about them.
• 26:10
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 26:11
  Danyelle: It's bringing up attachment.
• 26:14
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 26:15
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 26:16
  Danyelle: Um, I know we I feel like this season there's been a deep thread of attachment.
• 26:21
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 26:21
  Danyelle: And um, that makes sense, right?
• 26:24
  Danyelle: The the deepening of a relationship.
• 26:27
  Danyelle: There's something about having secure attachment in your friendships to be able to name, hey, this is what I'm seeing.
• 26:37
  Danyelle: And I I feel like we've done that for each other um in relationships of yes, um, not thankfully, not to the extent of we don't like them or like don't like a partner.
• 26:50
  Danyelle: But um, you know, when I was dating Kelly in the beginning, there is some tension.
• 26:58
  Danyelle: And I came to you and was like, hey, what might it look like to be a little bit more welcoming?
• 27:04
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 27:06
  Danyelle: And also to my partner, hey, stop standing in the corner of the bar on your phone.
• 27:14
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 27:15
  Danyelle: You know, and so like being able to have those really direct conversations because it was impacting me.
• 27:21
  Danyelle: It was impacting me that, you know, when we went out, it felt like I couldn't be with all of us.
• 27:27
  Danyelle: I had to like take these moments of like, oh, like, you know, BRB, hey, like over here, and then oh, over here.
• 27:34
  Danyelle: Um, and so it wasn't necessarily to the extent of like uh, you know, there's some dislike, but the building of connection was wasn't there.
• 27:47
  Danyelle: And because there was some secure attachment, and because I wanted this person in my life, I was able to say to you, hey, like what might it look like to show up differently?
• 27:56
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 27:56
  Michelle: And I think that speaks to when there are some healthy dynamics with any of the parties involved, you can move through it because at the that point I may have not been engaging, but I was definitely still coming and maybe like having an attitude and that starts to chip away at your friendship a little bit.
• 28:14
  Michelle: But to what I said about the sort of anti-Romeo and Juliet thing, it's like we do want our friends to like our partner.
• 28:20
  Michelle: And so the antithesis is when there is not that emotional intelligence or when you're deep in that trauma response or that toxic relationship that really has that choke hold, your friend may not be able to hear it.
• 28:33
  Michelle: And so, kind of knowing who you're going into, and again, that's why I do try and lead with that curiosity and safety.
• 28:40
  Michelle: But there's always going to be a trade-off, unfortunately, because you cannot control them.
• 28:45
  Michelle: You can't control who they will date, how they will act, how they feel about themselves as much as you may want.
• 28:52
  Michelle: But continuing to, in my experience, to reach out, to offer them reasons to value themselves and to know that they're loved is such a powerful antidote to someone who might not be feeling themselves.
• 29:07
  Michelle: It's like that to me is my job as a friend, while protecting myself and not being in situations that don't make me feel good or safe either.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:17
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 29:18
  Danyelle: No notes.
• 29:19
  Danyelle: Ugh, I love when I get a gold star.
• 29:21
  Danyelle: You know that it's my favorite.
• 29:23
  Danyelle: I think it's important for us to name when intervention beyond just a conversation is needed.
• 29:32
  Danyelle: If you suspect a friend is in an abusive relationship and it does warrant more than an observation or just healthy boundaries, but there's also the question of what do you do and how do you proceed forward.
• 29:47
  Danyelle: And we do want to give just a few tips and thoughts around how, again, you can continue to support yourself, but that you're also protecting that friend.
• 30:00
  Danyelle: A lot of what we've said thus far is really important.
• 30:03
  Danyelle: Naming the observation, naming what you're seeing, being able to come from a non-judgmental open space, really important to believe your friends and not push them.
• 30:14
  Danyelle: You don't want to create an environment where you're giving them an ultimatum or you are putting them in a position to have to choose the friendship over the relationship.
• 30:26
  Danyelle: It's a really good idea to not bad mouse their partner or say things that may create a wedge or alienate the two of you, being able to come from this place of softness and tenderness and grace.
• 30:40
  Danyelle: If somebody is in an abusive relationship, whether they know or not, you don't want to come at them in this like parental authoritative way.
• 30:52
  Danyelle: You do want to open the door with the tenderness to allow them to walk in at their own pace and not be forced or feel forced.
• 31:03
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 31:04
  Michelle: Because sometimes an unwanted or poorly timed intervention can actually be more dangerous for that person.
• 31:10
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 31:11
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 31:12
  Danyelle: And I would say being consistent and showing up, staying available, maybe having, if your friend is in a position where they are realizing, like, hey, yeah, this is an abusive relationship, and you're able to have that conversation with them, having a code word or text chain that is maybe in a different app so that they can communicate with you safely, really talking through a safety plan.
• 31:40
  Danyelle: What does it look like to have to leave or have to make a decision very quickly without thinking through all of the steps in the moment?
• 31:50
  Danyelle: And so having something like that prepared is really important.
• 31:53
  Danyelle: And I would say lastly, providing the national domestic violence hotline that is 24-7 and it is both text and phone.
• 32:05
  Michelle: 1-800-799-7233 or text start to 88788.
• 32:13
  Danyelle: You can also start a chat at thehotline.org.
• 32:18
  Danyelle: And this is a way for your friend to get support, to get advocacy, and so you don't have to hold it all by yourself.
• 32:26
  Danyelle: That you are also saying, hey, look, I see this and I want to be there for you.
• 32:32
  Danyelle: And maybe we need some additional resources to make sure that we're protecting you in the ways that you need it.
• 32:39
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 32:40
  Michelle: And it's all a part of that self-preservation as well, because we've been saying this whole episode that it's not your job to control or monitor or fix.
• 32:49
  Michelle: And yet, if you're the only person that they're being honest to or that's witnessing this part of the relationship and something were to happen, you would feel awful.
• 32:57
  Michelle: And sometimes it is a lot to carry alone.
• 33:00
  Michelle: So part of protecting yourself and the relationship is to help empower them with these resources and make sure you're sharing them.
• 33:09
  Michelle: At the end of the day, the best thing that you can do is keep the door open, meet the situation with curiosity.
• 33:15
  Michelle: And I do feel like we covered so much in this episode because it's everything from I just don't like your partner and don't want to hang out with them to we have different politics, to they're kind of rude, to I might suspect some sort of toxicity or emotional verbal abuse, all the way up to physical.
• 33:31
  Michelle: So there's any number of reasons that you might not like a partner.
• 33:34
  Michelle: And so much of it boils down to taking care of yourself first, to understanding that it's not your job to fix or control, to having hopefully what is an open relationship enough with your friend that you can share what you've noticed and offer a container for them to share what's going on and that you're meeting them with as much non-judgment as possible.
• 34:00
  Michelle: But also, we're giving you permission to draw that boundary and say, I choose not to spend time with this person, or to limit my time with them, or only in certain situations that is your right, and also to continue to build up your body in a way that it is okay to have some distance with your friend, that we don't always agree with and align with each other's life choices, and we can't always explain the choices that we make in partnership, and it may be much deeper than you know or can understand.
• 34:34
  Michelle: And so, to the extent that you have the capacity to continue to meet it with non-judgment, you might find out later why they stayed in it for as long as they did, and you'll be glad that you kept that door open to the friendship while still protecting yourself.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 34:51
  Michelle: So, is there anything that's bubbled to the surface for you or any reflection on the situations that we brought to the beginning?
• 35:00
  Michelle: I know it got heavy real quick.
• 35:01
  Danyelle: I appreciate you naming the spectrum of types of dislike or types of bad relationships is kind of like mild, maybe I'm hot.
• 35:12
  Danyelle: And something that bubbled to the top for me was I think one, how there's been internal evolution around not liking a friend's partner and what I'm really needing to do about that, or what that's really saying, and the internal conversations that I have now versus in my early 20s.
• 35:39
  Danyelle: And so, yeah, naming the maturity, naming the work that I've done, and also letting go of I know best.
• 35:51
  Danyelle: Because I don't.
• 35:52
  Danyelle: I don't, we we don't, we don't know all the story, we don't know everything.
• 35:56
  Danyelle: And even if we are in the right, we really still should be giving agency to our friend.
• 36:01
  Danyelle: And so this conversation to me, I think probably a lot of our listeners are gonna be in the mild medium category on a more universal basis.
• 36:17
  Danyelle: And it's still conversation that sometimes needs to be had.
• 36:21
  Danyelle: And when we can have those conversations with tools, with structure, how much softer, safer, just comfortable the conversations can be.
• 36:31
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 36:33
  Michelle: You know, what's coming up in this moment is that we're talking a lot about rightfully so, about our friend who's in the relationship that we don't love.
• 36:43
  Michelle: But so much of this work for me personally has been questioning myself and my own violent responses to a person that I don't like.
• 36:53
  Michelle: And what I've learned over the years as I've done more work on myself is that sometimes I don't love a person who's really like me, that there's a butting of heads that can happen when there's two kind of leaders in the room or bold personalities.
• 37:07
  Michelle: Um, also, if somebody is exhibiting something either that I don't allow myself to exhibit and or it's a shadow part of myself that feels like an underbelly, then I'm meeting that with judgment.
• 37:21
  Michelle: And so whenever I'm having a really strong reaction to not liking someone, it is often personal work that needs to happen.
• 37:28
  Michelle: And again, I'm not talking about outward and obvious abuse and toxicity.
• 37:32
  Michelle: I'm talking about genuinely just like fuck that guy, you know, or whatever it is.
• 37:37
  Michelle: Sometimes there's a story there, there's something that I need to uncover about myself.
• 37:42
  Michelle: And there have been any number of times when I thought I really didn't like somebody and then I softened.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, that feels like an episode topic.
• 37:53
  Michelle: Coming soon.
• 37:55
  Michelle: Would you pull a card for us?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see what the cards have to say.
• 38:03
  Michelle: I love how I ended the episode with like, get yourself right.
• 38:08
  Michelle: You think it's your friend's problem?
• 38:10
  Michelle: It's actually you.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: That feels like the arc of the season.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:15
  Danyelle: The in word.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's me.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm the problem.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's me.
• 38:22
  Danyelle: The Empress.
• 38:23
  Danyelle: I love this.
• 38:25
  Danyelle: In this context, the Empress is really representing a knowing, a comfort, a safety.
• 38:33
  Danyelle: The Empress is all about birthing and creating new things, deeply connected to the sacral chakra, where our creativity lives, where we plant seeds and allow them to grow.
• 38:51
  Danyelle: One of the things I said at the beginning of the episode was the best thing one might do when you have a friend and you don't like their partner is return to you, return to yourself.
• 39:02
  Danyelle: And so I'm thinking of this Empress energy of what could be the new idea?
• 39:09
  Danyelle: What could be the internal work that you may need to do to support this situation?
• 39:16
  Danyelle: The Empress is also a holder of emotions and feelings.
• 39:20
  Danyelle: And this is a little bit of okay, hold the feelings, hold the emotions, be present, but also look inside.
• 39:30
  Danyelle: Also understand what needs to be cleaned out, refreshed, unlearned within yourself.
• 39:38
  Danyelle: The Empress, as it relates to not liking a friend's partner, is this idea of we can be very aware of what's happening in the external.
• 40:02
  Michelle: Okay.
• 40:03
  Michelle: She said what she said.
• 40:06
  Michelle: Do the work, people.
• 40:07
  Michelle: Do the work.
• 40:08
  Michelle: It always comes back to you.
• 40:11
  Michelle: We're gonna see you next week.
• 40:12
  Michelle: Have a great one.
• 40:14
  Michelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 40:17
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 40:26
  Michelle: Episode notes or workbooks, all of it.
• 40:28
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 40:36
  Danyelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 40:38
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 40:44
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.